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What business is it of International Rescue ( aka thunderbirds) to speak out on our referendum? Has he been granted a leave of absence or permission to speak on UK politics?Danny565 said:
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I have no argument with that, we will still have a country that needs running whatever happens, although it would run somewhat happier without Osborne sitting in No11.Big_G_NorthWales said:I am sitting on the fence and will not lose sleep whatever the result is. However I do want to see a unifying post referendum cabinet with David Cameron as it's figurehead
Cameron's need to stop pissing around and sort the immigration system out, even if we stay in the EU, perhaps especially if we stay in the EU, at the moment its a disgrace. The EU doesn't stop us processing asylum seekers much faster and chucking out those that fail their appeals, in a few months preferably before they put down roots and can make a claim under Article 8.
He also needs to completely throw away the immigration targets, yes you hear me tear them up and put them in the bin. They are an embarrassment which he has no earthly chance of meeting, and it is causing significant hardship for legal visa applicants at embassies. Our inability to stop illegal immigrants means the government is applying pressure on immigration officers to reject legal applications on the thinnest of pretexts, the number of legal applications reject is up 18% this year, applications which have cost many well qualified third world applicants half a years wages to make, and which having failed wont get their money back.
We also need to scrap the disgraceful rules for minimum income requirements for family visa, which are causing husbands to have to leave wives behind and parents to leave children behind when they want to move back to the UK. Mrs May could use a new job and let someone else have a crack at this mess.0 -
Lose access to the european market in illegal drugs and stimulants.....Plato_Says said:Seb Coe was claiming Brexit would damage sport yesterday - our athletes will run slower?
Danny565 said:ttps://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/719921240014778368
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Will he have to show his tax return first? Isn't that the rules of the game...no tax returny, no allowed to say anything.Speedy said:
I wouldn't be surprised that Tony Blair will come out next to try to persuade Labour voters (and particularly students) to vote and vote Remain.surbiton said:The Return of David Miliband. Soon near you !
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Of course, as any keen sports fan will tell you, ONLY fully signed-up members of the EU can compete in the Champions League, Europa League, Euro Footy Championships, European Athletics, etc., etc.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Brexit will mean that we will be cut out of the deal about not having our running shoes lined with lead, or something.Plato_Says said:Seb Coe was claiming Brexit would damage sport yesterday - our athletes will run slower?
Danny565 said:ttps://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/719921240014778368
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Restricted access to the latest performance enhancing drugs?Plato_Says said:Seb Coe was claiming Brexit would damage sport yesterday - our athletes will run slower?
Danny565 said:ttps://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/719921240014778368
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I do hope so. That would shut up Nigel Farage for good.FrancisUrquhart said:
Will he have to show his tax return first? Isn't that the rules of the game...no tax returny, no allowed to say anything.Speedy said:
I wouldn't be surprised that Tony Blair will come out next to try to persuade Labour voters (and particularly students) to vote and vote Remain.surbiton said:The Return of David Miliband. Soon near you !
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New York - Baruch College
Trump 60 .. Kasich 17 .. Cruz 16
Clinton 50 .. Sanders 37
Clinton 51 .. Trump 35
Sanders 54 .. Trump 32
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/Baruchpoll41016.pdf0 -
I'm a bit worried that Team Sky will be forced to use square wheels in this year's Tour de France,Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, as any keen sports fan will tell you, ONLY fully signed-up members of the EU can compete in the Champions League, Europa League, Euro Footy Championships, European Athletics, etc., etc.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
Brexit will mean that we will be cut out of the deal about not having our running shoes lined with lead, or something.Plato_Says said:Seb Coe was claiming Brexit would damage sport yesterday - our athletes will run slower?
Danny565 said:ttps://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/719921240014778368
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True, but balanced by no further jollies to Strasbourg and Luxembourg to present cases at ECHR and CJEURichard_Nabavi said:Still, look on the bright side. Even if the IMF are dead right, one sector which will get an absolute bonanza from Brexit will be the big London law firms. All those zillions of contracts referencing EU law to rewrite...
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Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.0 -
What the IMF are saying, is if you want some of what Greece had ,come here and get some.We've got mates in the Troika who will let you have some too.We've got you by the balls.
Hard to argue with someone who has a poker up your backside and a boot in the mouth too.
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We better hurry
http://order-order.com/2016/04/12/top-eurocrat-time-for-an-eu-ban-on-referenda/Referenda are becoming a huge problem for the EU. The latest result in the Netherlands on the Association Agreement with Ukraine is probably the worst possible outcome. If the turnout had been below 30% the Dutch government could have safely ignored the vote…
Undoubtedly there is a growing trend towards referenda. There have been over 50 in the last twenty years. Sometimes referenda are forced upon governments if there is sufficient voter support, as was the case in the Netherlands… Perhaps it is time for an EU ban on referenda!0 -
EU law won't go away though. UK PLC will still have to comply with EU law in practice, even if we ditch the EU, EFTA and don't even negotiate any form of trade arrangement and remain in splendid isolation - for the simple reason that the EU is still there, on our doorstep, and millions of British subjects and companies will want to continue buying, selling, moving around, marrying, merging with, and generally continuing to engage with EU persons and entities. So they'll have to comply with EU law in doing so, and will have to make sure their products and contracts continue to adhere to EU law.Richard_Nabavi said:Still, look on the bright side. Even if the IMF are dead right, one sector which will get an absolute bonanza from Brexit will be the big London law firms. All those zillions of contracts referencing EU law to rewrite...
Which by then we'd have absolutely zilch say over...0 -
It's more a case of us Leavers being nice folks and having a genuine concern about our legal colleagues.AlastairMeeks said:
I don't think the diehard Leavers realise just how altruistic I'm being in supporting Remain.Richard_Nabavi said:Still, look on the bright side. Even if the IMF are dead right, one sector which will get an absolute bonanza from Brexit will be the big London law firms. All those zillions of contracts referencing EU law to rewrite...
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My business is booming. Unemployment hasn't been affected, we are still growing and the U.K. economy is still doing very well indeed.Bob__Sykes said:
He's right.SeanT said:
My heart bleeds for you. The CORPORATE LAWYERS ARE SUFFERING.matt said:
As a corporate lawyer dealing with externally facing businesses (most of whom are major employers in the UK) in a variety of sectors all I can tell you is that I've seen that there's been a real change in the last 3 months. The lack of certainty about where next is a very real concern. Still, dismissing it as a load of rubbish should deal with it effectively.Sean_F said:
A modest effect on business confidence? Very likely. Catastrophic? Plainly not.runnymede said:
what a load of rubbishmatt said:
I'm glad somebody else has said that. Everything I've seen suggests that this referendum is having a catastrophic effect in business confidence, blithe assurances aside. It's a truism that business does not like uncertainty but this is magnified here by having no knowledge of what "out" means in practice.Bob__Sykes said:
He's right though. Uncertainty over the EU vote IS affecting business confidence and work levels. We can see it first hand in our business.Casino_Royale said:
The sooner we get this out of the way and a Remain vote secured, the better.
Then we can have a proper attempt at renegotiating a few years hence when a ballsier PM comes along...
You've convinced me now. REMAIN IT IS.
And I wouldn't say corporate lawyers are "suffering", we're plenty busy enough, but it's obvious from our interactions with clients and the market generally that UK PLC is putting transactions on hold because of the uncertainty. It was evident in the run up to GE2015, to a lesser extent though, and it's evident again now. I imagine it will lift post 23 June, whatever the outcome perversely, but it is there and it is right to report it without getting abuse for it...
There has been a modest fall in the value of Sterling but I think most people simply wouldn't recognise the situation you're describing: politics is, by its very nature, a little bit disruptive.
I don't know you well but there are echoes of your posts from before GE2015 here - you seem to be never happier than when convinced we are doomed.0 -
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Paul Ryan to rule out presidential bid say aides :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-360296850 -
Great article Roger, but I imagine you will get a lot of complaints from whores denigrated by your association.0
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Rewind tape.... press play...Bob__Sykes said:Which by then we'd have absolutely zilch say over...
Yes, but that is on a rapidly dwindling part of our market, even when we are in the EU, outside it would dwindle even faster as we found new markets.
Inside the EU we have to apply EU law and EU standard to all the products and services we sell, even when selling to non-EU countries and even when the customer has no interest in following the EU rules. On top of that we then have to apply the customers own standards if different.
Outside the EU we can apply the standards that the customer we are selling to wants, so EU standards when selling to the EU, Brazilians standards when selling to Brazil and so forth.
Inside the EU we pick up the cost of applying standards which are not required for the bulk of our customers, and which our non-EU competitors do not need to apply, we are also constrained by EU customs rules, EU tariffs and have to wait for EU trade deals even if they are going to be against our national interest (see the trade deal with Mercosur)
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David Gest found dead.0
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One for everyone to enjoy (except the site's kippers, for whom this is #awkward):
https://www.facebook.com/james.cleverly/posts/788469177924519:00 -
Ryan to "rule out" GOP nomination in speech later, apparently.
IMO, the only thing that will kill the speculation stone-dead is if he proposes the speaker has an "immunity from nomination" clause agreed in the rules when the delegates meet the week before the convention.0 -
Just like now but we will have billions more for our own priorities.Bob__Sykes said:
EU law won't go away though. UK PLC will still have to comply with EU law in practice, even if we ditch the EU, EFTA ......Richard_Nabavi said:Still, look on the bright side. Even if the IMF are dead right, one sector which will get an absolute bonanza from Brexit will be the big London law firms. All those zillions of contracts referencing EU law to rewrite...
Which by then we'd have absolutely zilch say over...
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B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.0 -
We have a poll for the US race that is actually a bit meaningful, since it asks about 3rd options:
NBC national poll:
Hillary 38
Trump 36
3rd Party 16
Hillary 37
Cruz 32
3rd Party 19
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/poll-voters-split-between-clinton-trump-hypothetical-november-matchup-n5543060 -
I hope so. Labour voters thinking of holding their nose to vote for a REMAIN led by Cameron may find that the thought of Blair is just too much to overcome the nausea and will stay at home.Speedy said:
I wouldn't be surprised that Tony Blair will come out next to try to persuade Labour voters (and particularly students) to vote and vote Remain.surbiton said:The Return of David Miliband. Soon near you !
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Excellent and balanced thread header yet again from Roger. I am really starting to look forward to these.
Oh and many thanks to Francis for the link to the Stephen Fry interview on the last thread. Excellent viewing and once again confirms why I like Fry so much.0 -
I agree completely with your commentsIndigo said:
I have no argument with that, we will still have a country that needs running whatever happens, although it would run somewhat happier without Osborne sitting in No11.Big_G_NorthWales said:I am sitting on the fence and will not lose sleep whatever the result is. However I do want to see a unifying post referendum cabinet with David Cameron as it's figurehead
Cameron's need to stop pissing around and sort the immigration system out, even if we stay in the EU, perhaps especially if we stay in the EU, at the moment its a disgrace. The EU doesn't stop us processing asylum seekers much faster and chucking out those that fail their appeals, in a few months preferably before they put down roots and can make a claim under Article 8.
He also needs to completely throw away the immigration targets, yes you hear me tear them up and put them in the bin. They are an embarrassment which he has no earthly chance of meeting, and it is causing significant hardship for legal visa applicants at embassies. Our inability to stop illegal immigrants means the government is applying pressure on immigration officers to reject legal applications on the thinnest of pretexts, the number of legal applications reject is up 18% this year, applications which have cost many well qualified third world applicants half a years wages to make, and which having failed wont get their money back.
We also need to scrap the disgraceful rules for minimum income requirements for family visa, which are causing husbands to have to leave wives behind and parents to leave children behind when they want to move back to the UK. Mrs May could use a new job and let someone else have a crack at this mess.0 -
B-you would need extremely good equipment to extract anything meaningful at 20% light speed.RobD said:
B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.
C-no one knows what is lurking in the dark between the solar system and A Centauri, we don't even know if there are asteroids orbiting A Centauri, at 20% light speed you would need a very good guidance system plus radar to avoid collisions.0 -
Wrong. Why do you keep repeating these false claims? It really does destroy your credibility as an informed commentator on the issue.Bob__Sykes said:
EU law won't go away though. UK PLC will still have to comply with EU law in practice, even if we ditch the EU, EFTA and don't even negotiate any form of trade arrangement and remain in splendid isolation - for the simple reason that the EU is still there, on our doorstep, and millions of British subjects and companies will want to continue buying, selling, moving around, marrying, merging with, and generally continuing to engage with EU persons and entities. So they'll have to comply with EU law in doing so, and will have to make sure their products and contracts continue to adhere to EU law.Richard_Nabavi said:Still, look on the bright side. Even if the IMF are dead right, one sector which will get an absolute bonanza from Brexit will be the big London law firms. All those zillions of contracts referencing EU law to rewrite...
Which by then we'd have absolutely zilch say over...0 -
It's close to Scorpio, but well outside the Ecliptic.RobD said:
B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.0 -
What makes going at 20% of light speed different for your equipment? In their reference frame they aren't moving. Any information derived would surely be when the probe is still some way out, so tracking would be less of an issue.Speedy said:
B-you would need extremely good equipment to extract anything meaningful at 20% light speed.RobD said:
B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.
C-no one knows what is lurking in the dark between the solar system and A Centauri, we don't even know if there are asteroids orbiting A Centauri, at 20% light speed you would need a very good guidance system plus radar to avoid collisions.
As for asteroids in alpha Cen, see my first point. There is probably nothing between us, space is pretty big.0 -
New York - Quinnipiac
Trump 55 .. Kasich 20 .. Cruz 19
Clinton 53 .. Sanders 40
https://www.qu.edu/images/polling/ny/ny04122016_Ngr72wd.pdf0 -
When I do my tax return my state pension comes up on the return automatically. Maybe that is because I do it online and it looks as if Corbyn doesn'tScott_P said:@JamesTapsfield: Oops... Corbyn did manage to miss pension income off tax return https://t.co/Z0sF0lwbYl
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I may be wrong, but I think it's in Centaurus!Sunil_Prasannan said:
It's close to Scorpio, but well outside the Ecliptic.RobD said:
B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.0 -
MPs can't do it online.Big_G_NorthWales said:
When I do my tax return my state pension comes up on the return automatically. Maybe that is because I do it online and it looks as if Corbyn doesn'tScott_P said:@JamesTapsfield: Oops... Corbyn did manage to miss pension income off tax return https://t.co/Z0sF0lwbYl
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Looks like a balls-up by the port for passing the photo on.Sunil_Prasannan said:twitter.com/AngloBeat/status/719936407603712000
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An interesting article. Thanks, Roger.0
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tsk and our corporate lawyers are saying brexit is bad for business, theyre not even trying are they ?RobD said:
Looks like a balls-up by the port for passing the photo on.Sunil_Prasannan said:twitter.com/AngloBeat/status/719936407603712000
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Connecticut - Emerson
Trump 50 .. Kasich 26 .. Cruz 17
Clinton 49 .. Sanders 43
Clinton 48 .. Trump 40
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/polls/emerson-college-polling-society-242560 -
Meant to say Scorpio is the nearest Zodiacal constellation.RobD said:
I may be wrong, but I think it's in Centaurus!Sunil_Prasannan said:
It's close to Scorpio, but well outside the Ecliptic.RobD said:
B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.0 -
Heh, I was just making a (bad) joke.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Meant to say Scorpio is the nearest Zodiacal constellation.RobD said:
I may be wrong, but I think it's in Centaurus!Sunil_Prasannan said:
It's close to Scorpio, but well outside the Ecliptic.RobD said:
B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.0 -
Looks like the gent settled out of court. No business for the lawyers there!Alanbrooke said:
tsk and our corporate lawyers are saying brexit is bad for business, theyre not even trying are they ?RobD said:
Looks like a balls-up by the port for passing the photo on.Sunil_Prasannan said:twitter.com/AngloBeat/status/719936407603712000
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Maybe the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy has the appropriate analogy for the EU Referendum
"Yes, so anyway," he resumed, "the idea was that into the first ship, the 'A' ship, would go all the brilliant leaders, the scientists, the great artists, you know, all the achievers; and into the third, or 'C' ship, would go all the people who did the actual work, who made things and did things, and then into the `B' ship - that's us - would go everyone else, the middlemen you see."
A' Ship = Remain
C' Ship = Leave
B' Ship = DK/DNV
But that would put Roger on the wrong ship 0 -
Of course it should, but I see no evidence that it IS making a profit that is being neutralised and transferred to a loss making organisation offshore. The only evidence that gets widely quoted is "but Amazon is massive and has lots of sales" which is absurd.David_Evershed said:
Tax is levied on individual companies not on consolidated group figures. If the Amazon Uk company is making a profit (adjusting for artificial transfers of costs from the offshore parent) then it should pay tax in the UK regardless of losses made elsewhere.Philip_Thompson said:
Except the parent company (which gets those charges) is not making a profit. Amazon is not a profitable company and should not be discussed in that category. What should be done is ensuring that VAT is applied to all of Amazon's sales.David_Evershed said:Whilst Amazon don't make a profit overall because of their loss leading investment in new business, they may well make a profit in some countries before charges from the parent company for use of brand, patents, loans etc.
Some of these charges from the parent may not reflect a charge for true economic activity elsewhere but the diversion of profits to countries with low tax rates like the Bahamas, or some Swiss cantons. Hence the UK need for a diverted profits tax and limit on interest that companies can offset against tax.
I hate the link between corporation tax and sales figures frequently made in the media. Ignorant bastards, VAT is the sales-related tax. *rolleyes*0 -
Disappointed that you didn't correct me - in astronomy, it should be Scorpius. "Scorpio" is the astrological signRobD said:
Heh, I was just making a (bad) joke.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Meant to say Scorpio is the nearest Zodiacal constellation.RobD said:
I may be wrong, but I think it's in Centaurus!Sunil_Prasannan said:
It's close to Scorpio, but well outside the Ecliptic.RobD said:
B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.
0 -
Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.0
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No the traders are pricing in future dividends. If Google (like Amazon) was to stop investing today it could afford to immediately start issuing dividends. The fact it hasn't YET doesn't mean it won't in the future.Indigo said:
Google have never paid a dividend.Philip_Thompson said:I did my Masters Thesis on this (in '04) and then at least the historical link between a stocks present stock value and their future dividends was very strong.
In 2004 (ironically) the stock was valued at $54, today it was $736. On average 2 million shares are traded every day, these traders are presumably not waiting for a dividend.
Eventually Google and Amazon will reach full maturity and at that point they will be paying dividends. The fact they haven't reached maturity yet does not divorce the two from each other, the shares are still linked to potential future dividends.0 -
Test
0 -
I'm hopeful that they've been working hard behind the scenes for a big "go live" push from when they're (hopefully) selected as the official campaign onwards.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Unfortunately that means missing the pre-campaign window for spending £9mn and not accounting for it.0 -
The signs in the tea leaves suggest that VL might have received an unofficial nod that they have got the gig, hence your mailing and the sudden visibility of Cummings after keeping a low profile for months.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Exactly as planned by the government.Philip_Thompson said:Unfortunately that means missing the pre-campaign window for spending £9mn and not accounting for it.
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After this disastrous Remain campaign the one remaining thing preventing me from getting wholeheartedly behind Leave was the fear of Farage's mob getting the nod. This is great news I think if true.Indigo said:
The signs in the tea leaves suggest that VL might have received an unofficial nod that they have got the gig, hence your mailing and the sudden visibility of Cummings after keeping a low profile for months.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
I am not going to back a campaign that is all about shutting our borders.
I am not going to back a campaign that is all about how dreadful our country will be if we change course.
I am happy to back a campaign that is positive about taking control and responsibility for our own destiny.
Vote Leave is the only positive campaign out of all three.0 -
You're right - the EU was a test and it failed, as signified by the blank space. Such a pithy summary of the debateSunil_Prasannan said:
Test 0 -
I hope so too.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm hopeful that they've been working hard behind the scenes for a big "go live" push from when they're (hopefully) selected as the official campaign onwards.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Unfortunately that means missing the pre-campaign window for spending £9mn and not accounting for it.
This was never going to be a fair fight.0 -
We don't know. Heck, we're only just finding brown dwarves relatively close by. There could be anything out there: from lone planets and asteroids to dim brown dwarves. Whilst space is big enough to potentially make a collision dangerously possible. Just detecting and plotting these on the way would be good science (tm). And it would not have to be a collision; gravitational forces from unknown bodies or even weird factors such as the Yarkovsky effect could alter a cruising craft's orbit enough to make it miss even a star system.RobD said:What makes going at 20% of light speed different for your equipment? In their reference frame they aren't moving. Any information derived would surely be when the probe is still some way out, so tracking would be less of an issue.
As for asteroids in alpha Cen, see my first point. There is probably nothing between us, space is pretty big.
Then there are the things out there we haven't even thought of yet ...
What would I do? I'd send three or more space telescopes operating in radio, visible light and IR frequencies, some distance apart on the same trajectory. The distance would give a good baseline in the radio. If one gets lost through accident or malfunction, the others can still continue.
We'd probably need to build a massive space-based receiver to pick up the transmission when the probes are far away, as the signals would be exceptionally weak by the time they came home. I guess transmission bandwidth would also be a problem - transmission rates can be very low. It'll take the New Horizons probe sixteen months to send the data it collected in about a week.
http://gizmodo.com/why-itll-take-new-horizons-16-months-to-send-us-this-we-1717769317
But the science would be great.0 -
Is there a borough-by-borough breakdown of the 2012 London mayoral results available anywhere?0
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https://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/results-and-past-elections/results-2012Danny565 said:Is there a borough-by-borough breakdown of the 2012 London mayoral results available anywhere?
They have a spreadsheet going right down to ward level it seems.
https://www.londonelects.org.uk/download/file/fid/5170 -
Thank you.Indigo said:
https://www.londonelects.org.uk/im-voter/results-and-past-elections/results-2012Danny565 said:Is there a borough-by-borough breakdown of the 2012 London mayoral results available anywhere?
They have a spreadsheet going right down to ward level it seems.
https://www.londonelects.org.uk/download/file/fid/5170 -
How about this - an election with more candidates than the electorate!
Lib Dem Hereditary Peers by-election:
- 7 candidates
- 3 electors
NB. Not a typo - THREE people have a vote.
See link for the official notice - final page has each candidate's statement.
Must be one of the most bizarre elections ever.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/publications-records/House-of-Lords-Publications/By-elections/Lords-notice-candidate-list-Apr-2016-Avebury.pdf
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It all sounds a bit Dunny-on-the-Wold.MikeL said:How about this - an election with more candidates than the electorate!
Lib Dem Hereditary Peers by-election:
- 7 candidates
- 3 electors
NB. Not a typo - THREE people have a vote.
See link for the official notice - final page has each candidate's statement.
Must be one of the most bizarre elections ever.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/publications-records/House-of-Lords-Publications/By-elections/Lords-notice-candidate-list-Apr-2016-Avebury.pdf
Who is standing for the standing-at-the-back-dressed-stupidly-and-looking-stupid-party?0 -
I think they all areCasino_Royale said:
It all sounds a bit Dunny-on-the-Wold.MikeL said:How about this - an election with more candidates than the electorate!
Lib Dem Hereditary Peers by-election:
- 7 candidates
- 3 electors
NB. Not a typo - THREE people have a vote.
See link for the official notice - final page has each candidate's statement.
Must be one of the most bizarre elections ever.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/publications-records/House-of-Lords-Publications/By-elections/Lords-notice-candidate-list-Apr-2016-Avebury.pdf
Who is standing for the standing-at-the-back-dressed-stupidly-and-looking-stupid-party? 0 -
Off-topic:
If you haven't got your Occulus Rift yet, then there might be a significant delay.
http://www.polygon.com/2016/4/12/11413174/oculus-rift-launch-delay0 -
It could be even more comical - if 3 candidates get one vote each what happens?
It's under AV (of course!) so - draw lots to see who gets eliminated?
Then if that vote can't be reallocated presumably it's draw lots again to decide the final winner?0 -
Mr. Jessop, difficulty getting the groinal attachments to work?
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Redshift and time dilation will be quite large, I don't know how materials will be affected at that speed.RobD said:
What makes going at 20% of light speed different for your equipment? In their reference frame they aren't moving. Any information derived would surely be when the probe is still some way out, so tracking would be less of an issue.Speedy said:
B-you would need extremely good equipment to extract anything meaningful at 20% light speed.RobD said:
B - you don't, it'd be a flybySpeedy said:
Well they are out of nuclear fuel to function and they are not even a fraction of a light year away after 45 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't one of the Voyagers or Pioneers already halfway there (or thereabouts)? Or has it lost enough solar energy to function?RobD said:For anyone interested, Yuri Milner (billionaire giver of money) is announcing a mission to send a very tiny probe to the nearest star, alpha Centauri -- http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html
Problem A. Acceleration.
Problem B. Deceleration.
Problem C. Avoid mid space collisions.
Problem D. How to power it.
For it to be manageable or at least practical it has to accelerate to 20% the speed of light and then slow down again from there, and without crashing into anything that can destroy it and all that to get there in 45 years plus the power supply.
Or you can try a version of warp travel.
Best to test that technology, if it's ever developed, inside the solar system which is at least mapped before venturing outside of it.
C - the asteroid belt in our solar system is a problem, but I think alpha Cen is out of the ecliptic so that shouldn't be too much of an issue until you reach the Oort cloud.
C-no one knows what is lurking in the dark between the solar system and A Centauri, we don't even know if there are asteroids orbiting A Centauri, at 20% light speed you would need a very good guidance system plus radar to avoid collisions.
As for asteroids in alpha Cen, see my first point. There is probably nothing between us, space is pretty big.
And at 20% light speed even the tiniest particle colliding would release a lot of energy, a defence or deflection mechanism will be necessary.
In any case you would need a lot of testing to ensure that you won't miss your target and go to plaid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH7dDzDWyHk0 -
As condemned to failure as Virtual Boy, 3D Glasses, and Goggle Glass.JosiasJessop said:Off-topic:
If you haven't got your Occulus Rift yet, then there might be a significant delay.
http://www.polygon.com/2016/4/12/11413174/oculus-rift-launch-delay
The problem is you look pretty stupid wearing that on your head.0 -
I vote Viscount Thurso ..MikeL said:How about this - an election with more candidates than the electorate!
Lib Dem Hereditary Peers by-election:
- 7 candidates
- 3 electors
NB. Not a typo - THREE people have a vote.
See link for the official notice - final page has each candidate's statement.
Must be one of the most bizarre elections ever.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/publications-records/House-of-Lords-Publications/By-elections/Lords-notice-candidate-list-Apr-2016-Avebury.pdf 0 -
Mr. Speedy, I think that may be wrong. I think VR has more chance working now.
I don't think it'll replace 'standard' gaming, whether PC/console or mobile stuff, but it will develop in addition to it.0 -
@Casino_Royale : Excuse me sir, can I ask if you would please vote Leave.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Passer-by: Why?
CR: Freedom to choose your own fish. According to a letter I received recently.
PB: With you on the fish, comrade. Anything else?
CR: Yep. Sovereignty. No more rule from Brussels.
PB: Do you have an example?
CR. Not as such, but....Freedom!!!0 -
Isn't it too late for a third party to get on the ballot in all 50 states?Speedy said:We have a poll for the US race that is actually a bit meaningful, since it asks about 3rd options:
NBC national poll:
Hillary 38
Trump 36
3rd Party 16
Hillary 37
Cruz 32
3rd Party 19
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/poll-voters-split-between-clinton-trump-hypothetical-november-matchup-n554306
I recall, before the primary campaigns started, that polls showed Hillary would lose to a "generic Republican". Unfortunately for the GOP, there is no such animal.
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Mr. Topping, the enormo-haddock find your lack of respect for fish disturbing.0
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Syed Kamall might have knocked Dan Hannan off top spot of my favourite Tory MEP.
What a hero.0 -
Just because you aren't bright enough to think of any examples doesn't mean Casino or any other Leave campaigner shares your ignorance.TOPPING said:
@Casino_Royale : Excuse me sir, can I ask if you would please vote Leave.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Passer-by: Why?
CR: Freedom to choose your own fish. According to a letter I received recently.
PB: With you on the fish, comrade. Anything else?
CR: Yep. Sovereignty. No more rule from Brussels.
PB: Do you have an example?
CR. Not as such, but....Freedom!!!0 -
Yvette Cooper's tweets about Osborne are pretty, erm, strong to say the least.0
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Mr DancerMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Topping, the enormo-haddock find your lack of respect for fish disturbing.
a) many congratulations for your publication, as mentioned earlier on here.
b) would they prefer to be lightly grilled with a dash of olive oil, or served deep fried with mushy peas? Just so I can avoid the enormo-haddock social minefield in future posts.0 -
Your attitude and others like you is one of the reasons why many will vote to remain.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just because you aren't bright enough to think of any examples doesn't mean Casino or any other Leave campaigner shares your ignorance.TOPPING said:
@Casino_Royale : Excuse me sir, can I ask if you would please vote Leave.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Passer-by: Why?
CR: Freedom to choose your own fish. According to a letter I received recently.
PB: With you on the fish, comrade. Anything else?
CR: Yep. Sovereignty. No more rule from Brussels.
PB: Do you have an example?
CR. Not as such, but....Freedom!!!0 -
yes - top manCasino_Royale said:Syed Kamall might have knocked Dan Hannan off top spot of my favourite Tory MEP.
What a hero.0 -
Mr. Topping, thanks
Mushy peas for other fish is a matter of personal preference. With an enormo-haddock, they're an abomination.0 -
Mr. Alistair, I enjoyed this one, where she complains that Osborne paid income tax correctly (not unlike Faisal Islam's apparent 'allegation' against Cameron):
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/7196577517569761290 -
Her point is that he gave himself a tax cut with the 2012 Budget where he cut the top rate from 50p to 45p. Apparently he lied about it at the time, he said he wouldn't benefit from it:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Alistair, I enjoyed this one, where she complains that Osborne paid income tax correctly (not unlike Faisal Islam's apparent 'allegation' against Cameron):
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/719657751756976129
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/george-osborne-cut-tax-rate-77352960 -
Obviously Cameron hasn't learnt from what Ed Matts did down in Dorset South in the 2005 GE!Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
No it really isn't. Topping likes setting up straw men arguments and then trying to knock them down. The trouble is he really isn't very good at it which is why it is so easy to spike his guns.SquareRoot said:
Your attitude and others like you is one of the reasons why many will vote to remain.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just because you aren't bright enough to think of any examples doesn't mean Casino or any other Leave campaigner shares your ignorance.TOPPING said:
@Casino_Royale : Excuse me sir, can I ask if you would please vote Leave.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Passer-by: Why?
CR: Freedom to choose your own fish. According to a letter I received recently.
PB: With you on the fish, comrade. Anything else?
CR: Yep. Sovereignty. No more rule from Brussels.
PB: Do you have an example?
CR. Not as such, but....Freedom!!!
You on the other hand contribute nothing of value to the argument at all beyond the occasional sarcastic comment. You really are the epitome of pointlessness. Many will vote Leave precisely because of the sort of ignorant arrogance you and your kind display.0 -
Osborne & Little were not paying dividends at that time.Danny565 said:Her point is that he gave himself a tax cut with the 2012 Budget where he cut the top rate from 50p to 45p. Apparently he lied about it at the time, he said he wouldn't benefit from it:
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Man City fans booing loudly the Euro Anthem0
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Mr. 565, Osborne's an arrogant berk, but my concern about that or Cooper's shrieking about it is vanishingly small.0
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Yup. That PB actually pledged me his vote.TOPPING said:
@Casino_Royale : Excuse me sir, can I ask if you would please vote Leave.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Passer-by: Why?
CR: Freedom to choose your own fish. According to a letter I received recently.
PB: With you on the fish, comrade. Anything else?
CR: Yep. Sovereignty. No more rule from Brussels.
PB: Do you have an example?
CR. Not as such, but....Freedom!!!
If you drop me a vanilla I can drop you some canvassing tips, if you like?0 -
I'm not too sure the PM and the lizard people personally chose the photograph, although it possible he took the advice of Lord Lucan from the B52 on the moon.hunchman said:
Obviously Cameron hasn't learnt from what Ed Matts did down in Dorset South in the 2005 GE!Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
No he didn't lie - he said he didn't benefit the PREVIOUS year (referring to 2010/11 I think).Danny565 said:
Her point is that he gave himself a tax cut with the 2012 Budget where he cut the top rate from 50p to 45p. Apparently he lied about it at the time, he said he wouldn't benefit from it:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Alistair, I enjoyed this one, where she complains that Osborne paid income tax correctly (not unlike Faisal Islam's apparent 'allegation' against Cameron):
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/719657751756976129
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/george-osborne-cut-tax-rate-7735296
Which I'm sure is true - we know the wallpaper business hasn't paid a dividend for many years.0 -
Even Nicola keeps the 45p rateMorris_Dancer said:Mr. 565, Osborne's an arrogant berk, but my concern about that or Cooper's shrieking about it is vanishingly small.
0 -
Haven't they done that for years?Big_G_NorthWales said:Man City fans booing loudly the Euro Anthem
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That's the spiritBig_G_NorthWales said:Man City fans booing loudly the Euro Anthem
0 -
He did benefit last year from the change in the 2012 budget:Richard_Nabavi said:
Osborne & Little were not paying dividends at that time.Danny565 said:Her point is that he gave himself a tax cut with the 2012 Budget where he cut the top rate from 50p to 45p. Apparently he lied about it at the time, he said he wouldn't benefit from it:
"The chancellor said in 2012 he would not benefit from cutting the top rate of tax from 50p to 45p because he was not in the highest band of people earning more than £150,000 a year. But the dividend and rental income payments on top of his salary in 2014-15 meant he will have benefited from the tax cut last year."0 -
Is anyone worthy of debating with you, Richard?Richard_Tyndall said:
No it really isn't. Topping likes setting up straw men arguments and then trying to knock them down. The trouble is he really isn't very good at it which is why it is so easy to spike his guns.SquareRoot said:
Your attitude and others like you is one of the reasons why many will vote to remain.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just because you aren't bright enough to think of any examples doesn't mean Casino or any other Leave campaigner shares your ignorance.TOPPING said:
@Casino_Royale : Excuse me sir, can I ask if you would please vote Leave.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Passer-by: Why?
CR: Freedom to choose your own fish. According to a letter I received recently.
PB: With you on the fish, comrade. Anything else?
CR: Yep. Sovereignty. No more rule from Brussels.
PB: Do you have an example?
CR. Not as such, but....Freedom!!!
You on the other hand contribute nothing of value to the argument at all beyond the occasional sarcastic comment. You really are the epitome of pointlessness. Many will vote Leave precisely because of the sort of ignorant arrogance you and your kind display.
Freedom to choose your fish is on the letter I received from vote Leave or Leave EU or whichever one it was.
what straw men arguments have I set up?
Edit: I am sure of course that @Casino_Royale is eternally grateful to you for helping him/her out in this tricky exchange.0 -
At the time he wouldn't benefit from it. You're quoting a couple of years later, quote the 2012 or 2013 tax year (or 2011) to show a lie.Danny565 said:
Her point is that he gave himself a tax cut with the 2012 Budget where he cut the top rate from 50p to 45p. Apparently he lied about it at the time, he said he wouldn't benefit from it:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Alistair, I enjoyed this one, where she complains that Osborne paid income tax correctly (not unlike Faisal Islam's apparent 'allegation' against Cameron):
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/719657751756976129
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/george-osborne-cut-tax-rate-77352960 -
"Do you have an example?" "Not as such"TOPPING said:
Is anyone worthy of debating with you, Richard?Richard_Tyndall said:
No it really isn't. Topping likes setting up straw men arguments and then trying to knock them down. The trouble is he really isn't very good at it which is why it is so easy to spike his guns.SquareRoot said:
Your attitude and others like you is one of the reasons why many will vote to remain.Richard_Tyndall said:
Just because you aren't bright enough to think of any examples doesn't mean Casino or any other Leave campaigner shares your ignorance.TOPPING said:
@Casino_Royale : Excuse me sir, can I ask if you would please vote Leave.Casino_Royale said:Vote Leave appear to have finally got their arse in gear: I've received a correctly targetted email for campaigning on Saturday in my locality from 9am - 12pm by my local consistency coordinator.
Passer-by: Why?
CR: Freedom to choose your own fish. According to a letter I received recently.
PB: With you on the fish, comrade. Anything else?
CR: Yep. Sovereignty. No more rule from Brussels.
PB: Do you have an example?
CR. Not as such, but....Freedom!!!
You on the other hand contribute nothing of value to the argument at all beyond the occasional sarcastic comment. You really are the epitome of pointlessness. Many will vote Leave precisely because of the sort of ignorant arrogance you and your kind display.
Freedom to choose your fish is on the letter I received from vote Leave or Leave EU or whichever one it was.
what straw men arguments have I set up?
That is a straw man. I think Casino will be more than capable of coming up with multiple examples.0 -
They have not been in Europe for yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
Haven't they done that for years?Big_G_NorthWales said:Man City fans booing loudly the Euro Anthem
0
