I am saying that together with the other EU members we have participated in the formulation of all kinds of laws and regulations. I am also saying that often, for example as we have seen in the case of tariffs for Chinese steel, it has been the UK that has been the most vocal proponent of some of these regulations and laws.
I am also saying that on balance, to be part of this group that formulates regulations and laws on all kinds of matters, thereby creating efficiencies Europe-wide, is better than not being a part of it.
Ignoring - or perhaps ignorant of - the fact that many of the basic principles of those laws are debated and decided at an international level where the EU speaks and votes on our behalf rather than us being able to take a full part in those debates. Unlike EFTA countries like Norway who are able to have their own vote on those bodies.
Cooperation with our international partners is a good thing. Gagging ourselves so we cannot take part in formulating that cooperation is not a good thing.
So we leave the EU ("Freedom!") and join...EFTA!!!
Yes that has been my position throughout the whole debate. We get rid of the vast majority of EU laws whilst retaining access to the single market. Of course as always your inability to grasp simple concepts will prevent you from understanding this but I am sure there will be someone somewhere who will be able to run a remedial class for you as long as it is not past your bedtime.
And just to be clear, which Leave campaign, official or unofficial, is campaigning for us to leave the EU and join EEA/EFTA?
Which Leave campaign, official or unofficial, will be the government if we vote Leave?
Well I think it is reasonable to expect that the government will follow the official Leave campaign's manifesto. Don't you?
No. If a campaign wants a manifesto to be implemented they should win a General Election and become the government and implement it themselves.
This is a binary choice question. It is reasonable that the government implements the binary choice and that is the absolute limit to the power of the referendum. Everything else belongs to general elections.
That's also fair enough so you expect and want a non EEA/EFTA solution if Leave wins?
I am saying that together with the other EU members we have participated in the formulation of all kinds of laws and regulations. I am also saying that often, for example as we have seen in the case of tariffs for Chinese steel, it has been the UK that has been the most vocal proponent of some of these regulations and laws.
I am also saying that on balance, to be part of this group that formulates regulations and laws on all kinds of matters, thereby creating efficiencies Europe-wide, is better than not being a part of it.
Ignoring - or perhaps ignorant of - the fact that many of the basic principles of those laws are debated and decided at an international level where the EU speaks and votes on our behalf rather than us being able to take a full part in those debates. Unlike EFTA countries like Norway who are able to have their own vote on those bodies.
Cooperation with our international partners is a good thing. Gagging ourselves so we cannot take part in formulating that cooperation is not a good thing.
So we leave the EU ("Freedom!") and join...EFTA!!!
Yes that has been my position throughout the whole debate. We get rid of the vast majority of EU laws whilst retaining access to the single market. Of course as always your inability to grasp simple concepts will prevent you from understanding this but I am sure there will be someone somewhere who will be able to run a remedial class for you as long as it is not past your bedtime.
And just to be clear, which Leave campaign, official or unofficial, is campaigning for us to leave the EU and join EEA/EFTA?
Nice. Thanks. So freedom of movement, 70% of EU laws, and abiding by all the regulations that apply to EU trade while having precious little influence in their formulation.
At least that's clear. I hope The Leave Alliance gets the official nod on Thursday.
Nope not 70% of EU laws. Actually just over 20% of them. Almost 80% would no longer apply since they are not related to the Single Market. And we would have influence over all stages bar the final vote but would have an ultimate veto if we disagreed fundamentally.
Overall - a dreadful mendacious document entirely befitting the discredited Project Fear remain campaign.
Most of your objections are interpretation rather than factual I don't think they were trying to win you over, any more than Jeremy Corbyn cries when PB comments say nasty things about him They just have to beat Farage, Johnson and Galloway, which they seem to be doing, which is why they remain favoured
Yes. REMAIN is doing so well they have gone from 10-15 points ahead to Dead Level, in about six months.
They have lost popularity in opinion polls, but as you have said previously, they are still favoured to win at the end of the day. The odds say the same.
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Of course the UK being in the EU is in Australia's interests, just as it is in the USA's interests. Because our interests are aligned with the USA and Australia and Britain in the EU can align the EU more to Australia and the USA's interests.
However what that does not mean is that it is in our interests. The sovereignty we gain from leaving the EU, Australia like the USA already has. You don't see Australia begging to join the EU now do you? Them staying out of the EU and having us in is a win/win from their perspective but not from ours.
EDIT: TL;DR it is a "have cake and eat it" position from the Australian minister.
Australia is in Eurovision now!
EU membership is restricted to countries in the continent of Europe; though that isn't defined.
Not really the same thing though is it? So is Kazakhstan.
And Israel...
Indeed the epic party that is Eurovision takes place on 14th May, slap bang in the middle of the Brexit campaign.
Unfortunately Belarus is not permitted to have a naked man singing to live wolves on stage. Its health and safety gone mad!
Why would our concept of VAT be a misconception? It ought to be however we want it to be, that is democracy. If we want it be a luxury tax, why should we not have it as such?
Incidentally it is not uniquely British to view it as a luxury. In Australia their version of VAT is called GST and is very similar (perhaps unsurprisingly) to ours. That's just one nation off the top of my head, so unless there's a misconception that only European nations exist in this small world of ours, our system is not unique to the UK.
It is a misconception because the top rate of VAT in Britain is not particularly reserved for luxury goods, but for the majority of normal goods; however, public opinion seems to think that most goods are zero-rated. Well, food, but apart from that, limited enough.
Most normal goods are not essentials. It is essentials that are by and large zero-rated. In the UK, in Australia and elsewhere.
If companies were obliged to report both the pre-VAT and post-VAT amounts then there'd probably be much more pressure to lower VAT rates as there is for sales taxes on the other side of the pond.
Obviously Cameron hasn't learnt from what Ed Matts did down in Dorset South in the 2005 GE!
I'm not too sure the PM and the lizard people personally chose the photograph, although it possible he took the advice of Lord Lucan from the B52 on the moon.
A typical reptilian response!
The reptile shop on the Finchley Road thanks you ...
Well you and the rest of the establishment on here can deny the multi-billion pound theft, money laundering, boiler room that has its nexus there. Just a shame that companies house documentation and the trail of money proves this has been going on for the past 40 years.
If you're so sure that it hasn't been going on then take on Gordon Bowden in a UK court over it? If you're not prepared to put your money where your mouth is and do that then you simply have no comeback on the fact that this is going on. Nobody in the establishment has dared do that since Mr Bowden took his documentation to the BBC at the start of March last year. And the BBC have sat on the documents for 13 months and counting now because surprise surprise it implicates senior BBC executives.
Sorry but I'm just off to my latest meeting of the Bilderberg Illuminati Global Confederation Of Conspiracy Kardashians = BIG COCK ...
Just for lolz, YouGov's final poll at the 2015 GE had a sample size of 10,307, and was less accurate than ComRes' final poll which had a sample size of 1,007
I am saying that together with the other EU members we have participated in the formulation of all kinds of laws and regulations. I am also saying that often, for example as we have seen in the case of tariffs for Chinese steel, it has been the UK that has been the most vocal proponent of some of these regulations and laws.
I am also saying that on balance, to be part of this group that formulates regulations and laws on all kinds of matters, thereby creating efficiencies Europe-wide, is better than not being a part of it.
Ignoring - or perhaps ignorant of - the fact that many of the basic principles of those laws are debated and decided at an international level where the EU speaks and votes on our behalf rather than us being able to take a full part in those debates. Unlike EFTA countries like Norway who are able to have their own vote on those bodies.
Cooperation with our international partners is a good thing. Gagging ourselves so we cannot take part in formulating that cooperation is not a good thing.
So we leave the EU ("Freedom!") and join...EFTA!!!
Yes that has been my position throughout the whole debate. We get rid of the vast majority of EU laws whilst retaining access to the single market. Of course as always your inability to grasp simple concepts will prevent you from understanding this but I am sure there will be someone somewhere who will be able to run a remedial class for you as long as it is not past your bedtime.
And just to be clear, which Leave campaign, official or unofficial, is campaigning for us to leave the EU and join EEA/EFTA?
Nice. Thanks. So freedom of movement, 70% of EU laws, and abiding by all the regulations that apply to EU trade while having precious little influence in their formulation.
At least that's clear. I hope The Leave Alliance gets the official nod on Thursday.
Nope not 70% of EU laws. Actually just over 20% of them. Almost 80% would no longer apply since they are not related to the Single Market. And we would have influence over all stages bar the final vote but would have an ultimate veto if we disagreed fundamentally.
Apart from that you were fine.
I think you've been outranked by the will of the people as reminded by @Philip_Thompson . If it's Leave we will leave the EU. None of your EEA/EFTA free movement of people nonsense.
I am saying that together with the other EU members we have participated in the formulation of all kinds of laws and regulations. I am also saying that often, for example as we have seen in the case of tariffs for Chinese steel, it has been the UK that has been the most vocal proponent of some of these regulations and laws.
I am also saying that on balance, to be part of this group that formulates regulations and laws on all kinds of matters, thereby creating efficiencies Europe-wide, is better than not being a part of it.
Ignoring - or perhaps ignorant of - the fact that many of the basic principles of those laws are debated and decided at an international level where the EU speaks and votes on our behalf rather than us being able to take a full part in those debates. Unlike EFTA countries like Norway who are able to have their own vote on those bodies.
Cooperation with our international partners is a good thing. Gagging ourselves so we cannot take part in formulating that cooperation is not a good thing.
So we leave the EU ("Freedom!") and join...EFTA!!!
Yes that has been my position throughout the whole debate. We get rid of the vast majority of EU laws whilst retaining access to the single market. Of course as always your inability to grasp simple concepts will prevent you from understanding this but I am sure there will be someone somewhere who will be able to run a remedial class for you as long as it is not past your bedtime.
And just to be clear, which Leave campaign, official or unofficial, is campaigning for us to leave the EU and join EEA/EFTA?
Nice. Thanks. So freedom of movement, 70% of EU laws, and abiding by all the regulations that apply to EU trade while having precious little influence in their formulation.
At least that's clear. I hope The Leave Alliance gets the official nod on Thursday.
PS the fascinating thing about the FT poll of polls is that the larger polls, the ones with the biggest datasets - the most people polled - and therefore arguably the most accurate, tend to favour LEAVE.
Alas, I don't think it's as simple as that. If you have a balanced sample, then you only need a few hundred people to get something very accurate. If you have an unbalanced sample, then adding more people to it doesn't make it any more accurate. 6,000 people in an on-line poll is 'bleh', tbh.
During the campaign, Leave is eating into the Don't Knows, which is good. Furthermore, the big Remain leads on the phone polls have gone from 15-20 points, to 8-10. And the on-lines are showing small Leave leads.
Project Fear is about getting people out to vote who are soft Remain-ers, and make people who are 'Don't Knows', but are scared about things not working out in the near term, come out for Remain. We don't know if it will be successful, but my guess is that Remain is still 5-6 points ahead when DKs breaking for the status quo is included.
We need some negative story from Europe: a resumption of the Greek crisis, or the migrant crisis. Absent that, I think we fall 6-8 points short.
And Stephen Harper after the GE2015 win - albeit he lost last year, of course:
"Canada’s Stephen Harper has clearly recognised what a Conservative majority government could mean for UK-Can relations, especially in the aftermath of 2017’s promised EU referendum. Anticipating a rekindling of old, global trade links with the UK in a post ‘Brexit’ world, Harper wrote to Cameron yesterday:
“On behalf of the Government of Canada, I would like to congratulate David Cameron on his strong re-election as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom with a majority government.
“Canada and the United Kingdom share a deep and close relationship rooted in our common history and values, our tradition of parliamentary democracy, our partnership on global issues, and our shared sovereign, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.
“The potential for collaboration between our two countries is unlimited. I look forward to continuing to work with Prime Minister Cameron to ensure our collective security, including in our efforts to support Ukraine against Russian aggression and in our fight against the so-called Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, to promote the economic ties between our two countries”
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Indeed the only foreign political leader that seems to desire Brexit is Mr Putin. I wonder why...
Does Mr Putin have a good track record of telling the truth?
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Of course the UK being in the EU is in Australia's interests, just as it is in the USA's interests. Because our interests are aligned with the USA and Australia and Britain in the EU can align the EU more to Australia and the USA's interests.
However what that does not mean is that it is in our interests. The sovereignty we gain from leaving the EU, Australia like the USA already has. You don't see Australia begging to join the EU now do you? Them staying out of the EU and having us in is a win/win from their perspective but not from ours.
EDIT: TL;DR it is a "have cake and eat it" position from the Australian minister.
Australia is in Eurovision now!
EU membership is restricted to countries in the continent of Europe; though that isn't defined.
Not really the same thing though is it? So is Kazakhstan.
And Israel...
Indeed the epic party that is Eurovision takes place on 14th May, slap bang in the middle of the Brexit campaign.
Unfortunately Belarus is not permitted to have a naked man singing to live wolves on stage. Its health and safety gone mad!
Well I think it is reasonable to expect that the government will follow the official Leave campaign's manifesto. Don't you?
No. If a campaign wants a manifesto to be implemented they should win a General Election and become the government and implement it themselves.
This is a binary choice question. It is reasonable that the government implements the binary choice and that is the absolute limit to the power of the referendum. Everything else belongs to general elections.
That's also fair enough so you expect and want a non EEA/EFTA solution if Leave wins?
No I expect and want an EEA solution if Leave wins. I think the vast majority of government MPs [virtually all Remain supporting government MPs and a large majority of leave-supporting government MPs] would view the EEA as the immediate step for leaving.
Once we've left, if a party wants to leave the EEA they should put that in their manifesto. That question was not asked in this referendum so can't be answered by it either.
I am saying that together with the other EU members we have participated in the formulation of all kinds of laws and regulations. I am also saying that often, for example as we have seen in the case of tariffs for Chinese steel, it has been the UK that has been the most vocal proponent of some of these regulations and laws.
I am also saying that on balance, to be part of this group that formulates regulations and laws on all kinds of matters, thereby creating efficiencies Europe-wide, is better than not being a part of it.
Ignoring - or perhaps ignorant of - the fact that many of the basic principles of those laws are debated and decided at an international level where the EU speaks and votes on our behalf rather than us being able to take a full part in those debates. Unlike EFTA countries like Norway who are able to have their own vote on those bodies.
Cooperation with our international partners is a good thing. Gagging ourselves so we cannot take part in formulating that cooperation is not a good thing.
So we leave the EU ("Freedom!") and join...EFTA!!!
Yes that has been my position throughout the whole debate. We get rid of the vast majority of EU laws whilst retaining access to the single market. Of course as always your inability to grasp simple concepts will prevent you from understanding this but I am sure there will be someone somewhere who will be able to run a remedial class for you as long as it is not past your bedtime.
And just to be clear, which Leave campaign, official or unofficial, is campaigning for us to leave the EU and join EEA/EFTA?
Nice. Thanks. So freedom of movement, 70% of EU laws, and abiding by all the regulations that apply to EU trade while having precious little influence in their formulation.
At least that's clear. I hope The Leave Alliance gets the official nod on Thursday.
As an aside, the EU's Turkey deal seems to be discouraging migrants in the Med. The numbers for the first 12 days of April are about 70% down on last year, and 80% down on the first two weeks of March.
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Of course the UK being in the EU is in Australia's interests, just as it is in the USA's interests. Because our interests are aligned with the USA and Australia and Britain in the EU can align the EU more to Australia and the USA's interests.
However what that does not mean is that it is in our interests. The sovereignty we gain from leaving the EU, Australia like the USA already has. You don't see Australia begging to join the EU now do you? Them staying out of the EU and having us in is a win/win from their perspective but not from ours.
EDIT: TL;DR it is a "have cake and eat it" position from the Australian minister.
Australia is in Eurovision now!
EU membership is restricted to countries in the continent of Europe; though that isn't defined.
Not really the same thing though is it? So is Kazakhstan.
And Israel...
Indeed the epic party that is Eurovision takes place on 14th May, slap bang in the middle of the Brexit campaign.
Unfortunately Belarus is not permitted to have a naked man singing to live wolves on stage. Its health and safety gone mad!
Amid the plethora of arguments for voting leave, the lack of democratic accountability within the EU and the total lack of respect for the will of the people as evidenced yet again by the Dutch Ukraine vote should be heard loud and clear in the leave campaign:
If anyone of the Remain apologists on here would care to give me an example in history when a country has prospered long term whilst not respecting the wishes of its people then I'd love to hear it!
The Roman Empire prospered for several hundred years whilst ignoring the wishes of the people .
And not, like @Philip_Thompson, a generalised bunch of bolleaux.
Philip's examples were by no means bollocks. Unlike most of your contributions.
To pick up immediately on one specific example he made.
We currently charge 5% VAT on home energy costs. We are forced to do this because of EU laws. A past Tory government was stupid enough to impose VAT on a basic essential and when they were replaced the incoming Government was not allowed by EU laws to completely remove that tax. Now I realise that to someone of your sort of wealth a mere 5% is probably an insignificant trifle but to many of the poorest in the country it is yet another cost they can ill afford and one that any reasonable independent government would remove. Of course being in the EU they are not allowed to.
I have distilled your point down to its one basic essential:
"A past Tory government was stupid enough to impose VAT on a basic essential."
ie we retained sovereignty such that we imposed the tax.
Did subsequent governments try to remove it? Please supply links to this if this was the case because I am always keen to slightly lessen my idiocy.
It sets out in terms even you should be able to understand how the Tories imposed VAT on household heating and how, after the Labour victory in 1997, the Government were prevented from removing it entirely as it could not be reduced below 5% under EU law.
I hope your idiocy is at least partially ameliorated.
Well, we don't know whether that great strategist Gordon Brown wanted to lower it to below 5% do we? The Lab manifesto said 5%.
All we know is a) he said he wanted to lower it to 5%; and b) the EU mandated minimum is 5%
While the Cons wanted to increase it, because a global organisation, the likes of which many Leavers would rather be in thrall to (in this case the UN) said it should be higher to lower emissions.
Truly a mad world we live in but no smoking gun about EU strangling our autonomy.
Nope. The main reasons given for imposing VAT on household energy were to raise money and for reasons of economic and administrative efficiency. The environmental arguments were simply a smokescreen to make a substantial tax raise more palatable
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Of course the UK being in the EU is in Australia's interests, just as it is in the USA's interests. Because our interests are aligned with the USA and Australia and Britain in the EU can align the EU more to Australia and the USA's interests.
However what that does not mean is that it is in our interests. The sovereignty we gain from leaving the EU, Australia like the USA already has. You don't see Australia begging to join the EU now do you? Them staying out of the EU and having us in is a win/win from their perspective but not from ours.
EDIT: TL;DR it is a "have cake and eat it" position from the Australian minister.
Australia is in Eurovision now!
EU membership is restricted to countries in the continent of Europe; though that isn't defined.
Not really the same thing though is it? So is Kazakhstan.
And Israel...
Indeed the epic party that is Eurovision takes place on 14th May, slap bang in the middle of the Brexit campaign.
Unfortunately Belarus is not permitted to have a naked man singing to live wolves on stage. Its health and safety gone mad!
I followed you on that and got a couple of quid on at c 760/1 @Foxinsox reckons that it has been banned though. With Eurovision being such a festival of campness a naked guy would have stormed it.
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Of course the UK being in the EU is in Australia's interests, just as it is in the USA's interests. Because our interests are aligned with the USA and Australia and Britain in the EU can align the EU more to Australia and the USA's interests.
However what that does not mean is that it is in our interests. The sovereignty we gain from leaving the EU, Australia like the USA already has. You don't see Australia begging to join the EU now do you? Them staying out of the EU and having us in is a win/win from their perspective but not from ours.
EDIT: TL;DR it is a "have cake and eat it" position from the Australian minister.
Australia is in Eurovision now!
EU membership is restricted to countries in the continent of Europe; though that isn't defined.
Not really the same thing though is it? So is Kazakhstan.
And Israel...
Indeed the epic party that is Eurovision takes place on 14th May, slap bang in the middle of the Brexit campaign.
Unfortunately Belarus is not permitted to have a naked man singing to live wolves on stage. Its health and safety gone mad!
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Indeed the only political leader that seems to desire Brexit is Mr Putin. I wonder why...
John Howard (Australian PM from 1996 to 2007) thinks we should Leave:
Anyway, it's irrelevant: our membership of the European Union is our decision to take in our interest, not that of foreign politicians.
Yes the more foreigners and the likes of Miliband senior queue up to tell us what to think makes me think the great and the good are getting a tad windy that this is not looking like the walkover they think it should be, and probably thought it would be, ( though I expect a Remain win still, sadly). It also reminds me that it is presicely the likes of Miliband who have denied me a vote all my adult life on this while salami slicing away at my sovereignty as a British citizen. Sod 'em. I listened to the same scaremongering drivel about the Euro 20 years ago, and anyway it's not all about the money.
We need some negative story from Europe: a resumption of the Greek crisis, or the migrant crisis. Absent that, I think we fall 6-8 points short.
The irony is that if there's a fresh negative story there can be a "cling to nurse for fear of worse" effect. See Brown gaining popularity when the banking crisis hit before it then ultimately crashed away.
Obviously Cameron hasn't learnt from what Ed Matts did down in Dorset South in the 2005 GE!
I'm not too sure the PM and the lizard people personally chose the photograph, although it possible he took the advice of Lord Lucan from the B52 on the moon.
A typical reptilian response!
The reptile shop on the Finchley Road thanks you ...
Well you and the rest of the establishment on here can deny the multi-billion pound theft, money laundering, boiler room that has its nexus there. Just a shame that companies house documentation and the trail of money proves this has been going on for the past 40 years.
If you're so sure that it hasn't been going on then take on Gordon Bowden in a UK court over it? If you're not prepared to put your money where your mouth is and do that then you simply have no comeback on the fact that this is going on. Nobody in the establishment has dared do that since Mr Bowden took his documentation to the BBC at the start of March last year. And the BBC have sat on the documents for 13 months and counting now because surprise surprise it implicates senior BBC executives.
I just wasted 15 minutes of my life listening to this nut job claiming stuff about Cameron & Dr David Kelly that is not only bonkers, but the timeline doesn't work.
Amid the plethora of arguments for voting leave, the lack of democratic accountability within the EU and the total lack of respect for the will of the people as evidenced yet again by the Dutch Ukraine vote should be heard loud and clear in the leave campaign:
If anyone of the Remain apologists on here would care to give me an example in history when a country has prospered long term whilst not respecting the wishes of its people then I'd love to hear it!
The Roman Empire prospered for several hundred years whilst ignoring the wishes of the people .
So you are comparing the EU with the Roman Empire? Interesting. If a Leave supporter did that they would be pilloried for it.
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Of course the UK being in the EU is in Australia's interests, just as it is in the USA's interests. Because our interests are aligned with the USA and Australia and Britain in the EU can align the EU more to Australia and the USA's interests.
However what that does not mean is that it is in our interests. The sovereignty we gain from leaving the EU, Australia like the USA already has. You don't see Australia begging to join the EU now do you? Them staying out of the EU and having us in is a win/win from their perspective but not from ours.
EDIT: TL;DR it is a "have cake and eat it" position from the Australian minister.
Indeed, by the same token, the vast majority of the world outside the USA would pick a Democrat politician every single time because they view Republicans as more of a challenge to both their interests and values.
Just for lolz, YouGov's final poll at the 2015 GE had a sample size of 10,307, and was less accurate than ComRes' final poll which had a sample size of 1,007
They both overestimated turnout by 10 points, and they both had the same result +/-1%.
If this heads to the courts then it is clear that Banks is in this for his ego and not to win.
Whichever campaign gets the designation, both campaigns need to accept it and put 100% undivided attention into winning the referendum. Nothing else (should) matter.
Amid the plethora of arguments for voting leave, the lack of democratic accountability within the EU and the total lack of respect for the will of the people as evidenced yet again by the Dutch Ukraine vote should be heard loud and clear in the leave campaign:
If anyone of the Remain apologists on here would care to give me an example in history when a country has prospered long term whilst not respecting the wishes of its people then I'd love to hear it!
The Roman Empire prospered for several hundred years whilst ignoring the wishes of the people .
Interesting that you don't see ignoring the wishes of the people as a problem.
I think you've been outranked by the will of the people as reminded by @Philip_Thompson . If it's Leave we will leave the EU. None of your EEA/EFTA free movement of people nonsense.
Unfortunately (for democratic reasons even though I would agree with the result) the people won't decide that. There will still be four years to run of the Tory Government and the decision will be made by the MPs in Parliament who I suspect will overwhelmingly vote for the EEA/EFTA option.
Apparently, the treaty came into force on 1 February 2016 when the Belgian parliament ratified it, being the 30th entity to finish the ratification process.
It seems incomprehensible to me that the Dutch would ratify an agreement and then have a referendum on it.
Amid the plethora of arguments for voting leave, the lack of democratic accountability within the EU and the total lack of respect for the will of the people as evidenced yet again by the Dutch Ukraine vote should be heard loud and clear in the leave campaign:
If anyone of the Remain apologists on here would care to give me an example in history when a country has prospered long term whilst not respecting the wishes of its people then I'd love to hear it!
The Roman Empire prospered for several hundred years whilst ignoring the wishes of the people .
So you are comparing the EU with the Roman Empire? Interesting. If a Leave supporter did that they would be pilloried for it.
Austria- Hungary is a better model. Not really evil, just a bit hopeless, moth eaten, and declining in a mass of multi ethnic and constitutional contradictions.
Amid the plethora of arguments for voting leave, the lack of democratic accountability within the EU and the total lack of respect for the will of the people as evidenced yet again by the Dutch Ukraine vote should be heard loud and clear in the leave campaign:
If anyone of the Remain apologists on here would care to give me an example in history when a country has prospered long term whilst not respecting the wishes of its people then I'd love to hear it!
The Roman Empire prospered for several hundred years whilst ignoring the wishes of the people .
So you are comparing the EU with the Roman Empire? Interesting. If a Leave supporter did that they would be pilloried for it.
Austria- Hungary is a better model. Not really evil, just a bit hopeless, moth eaten, and declining in a mass of multi ethnic and constitutional contradictions.
What about Eastern Roman Empire? Byzantine, bureaucratic and in decline.
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Indeed the only political leader that seems to desire Brexit is Mr Putin. I wonder why...
John Howard (Australian PM from 1996 to 2007) thinks we should Leave:
Anyway, it's irrelevant: our membership of the European Union is our decision to take in our interest, not that of foreign politicians.
Yes the more foreigners and the likes of Miliband senior queue up to tell us what to think makes me think the great and the good are getting a tad windy that this is not looking like the walkover they think it should be, and probably thought it would be, ( though I expect a Remain win still, sadly). It also reminds me that it is presicely the likes of Miliband who have denied me a vote all my adult life on this while salami slicing away at my sovereignty as a British citizen. Sod 'em. I listened to the same scaremongering drivel about the Euro 20 years ago, and anyway it's not all about the money.
I'm not particularly admiring the cut of his jib right now - his deal is awful, his campaign is worse, and he was clearly never serious about Leave being remotely on the table - *but* you at least have to respect Cameron for offering us, and giving us, a vote.
Miliband would never have done so in a million years.
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Indeed the only political leader that seems to desire Brexit is Mr Putin. I wonder why...
John Howard (Australian PM from 1996 to 2007) thinks we should Leave:
Anyway, it's irrelevant: our membership of the European Union is our decision to take in our interest, not that of foreign politicians.
Yes the more foreigners and the likes of Miliband senior queue up to tell us what to think makes me think the great and the good are getting a tad windy that this is not looking like the walkover they think it should be, and probably thought it would be, ( though I expect a Remain win still, sadly). It also reminds me that it is presicely the likes of Miliband who have denied me a vote all my adult life on this while salami slicing away at my sovereignty as a British citizen. Sod 'em. I listened to the same scaremongering drivel about the Euro 20 years ago, and anyway it's not all about the money.
I'm not particularly admiring the cut of his jib right now - his deal is awful, his campaign is worse, and he was clearly never serious about Leave being remotely on the table - *but* you at least have to respect Cameron for offering us, and giving us, a vote.
Miliband would never have done so in a million years.
Obviously Cameron hasn't learnt from what Ed Matts did down in Dorset South in the 2005 GE!
I'm not too sure the PM and the lizard people personally chose the photograph, although it possible he took the advice of Lord Lucan from the B52 on the moon.
A typical reptilian response!
The reptile shop on the Finchley Road thanks you ...
Wause surprise surprise it implicates senior BBC executives.
I just wasted 15 minutes of my life listening to this nut job claiming stuff about Cameron & Dr David Kelly that is not only bonkers, but the timeline doesn't work.
Obviously Cameron hasn't learnt from what Ed Matts did down in Dorset South in the 2005 GE!
I'm not too sure the PM and the lizard people personally chose the photograph, although it possible he took the advice of Lord Lucan from the B52 on the moon.
A typical reptilian response!
The reptile shop on the Finchley Road thanks you ...
Well you and the rest of the establishment on here can deny the multi-billion pound theft, money laundering, boiler room that has its nexus there. Just a shame that companies house documentation and the trail of money proves this has been going on for the past 40 years.
If you're so sure that it hasn't been going on then take on Gordon Bowden in a UK court over it? If you're not prepared to put your money where your mouth is and do that then you simply have no comeback on the fact that this is going on. Nobody in the establishment has dared do that since Mr Bowden took his documentation to the BBC at the start of March last year. And the BBC have sat on the documents for 13 months and counting now because surprise surprise it implicates senior BBC executives.
I just wasted 15 minutes of my life listening to this nut job claiming stuff about Cameron & Dr David Kelly that is not only bonkers, but the timeline doesn't work.
Which part did you specifically disagree with? - the 1989 visit to SA with Kenneth Warren and Dr David Kelly?, or Thatcher signing the urgent operational requirement (UOR) document on her final day as PM? Or something else?
Well I think it is reasonable to expect that the government will follow the official Leave campaign's manifesto. Don't you?
No. If a campaign wants a manifesto to be implemented they should win a General Election and become the government and implement it themselves.
This is a binary choice question. It is reasonable that the government implements the binary choice and that is the absolute limit to the power of the referendum. Everything else belongs to general elections.
That's also fair enough so you expect and want a non EEA/EFTA solution if Leave wins?
No I expect and want an EEA solution if Leave wins. I think the vast majority of government MPs [virtually all Remain supporting government MPs and a large majority of leave-supporting government MPs] would view the EEA as the immediate step for leaving.
Once we've left, if a party wants to leave the EEA they should put that in their manifesto. That question was not asked in this referendum so can't be answered by it either.
I suspect the British public care more about immigration than the tampon tax but once that ship has sailed they are mere passengers.
I suppose I find it curious to think that your preferred solution is one which accepts the vast majority of single market rules while having little or no input into their formulation. To me it makes no sense to vote for less rather than more influence on a market accounting for nearly 50% of our exports.
Despite tampon tax-gate I don't get the lack of sovereignty thing. We agreed to be part of a club and that club has rules. But then again that is the question that will be asked on June 23rd,
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Indeed the only political leader that seems to desire Brexit is Mr Putin. I wonder why...
John Howard (Australian PM from 1996 to 2007) thinks we should Leave:
Anyway, it's irrelevant: our membership of the European Union is our decision to take in our interest, not that of foreign politicians.
Yes the more foreigners and the likes of Miliband senior queue up to tell us what to think makes me think the great and the good are getting a tad windy that this is not looking like the walkover they think it should be, and probably thought it would be, ( though I expect a Remain win still, sadly). It also reminds me that it is presicely the likes of Miliband who have denied me a vote all my adult life on this while salami slicing away at my sovereignty as a British citizen. Sod 'em. I listened to the same scaremongering drivel about the Euro 20 years ago, and anyway it's not all about the money.
I'm not particularly admiring the cut of his jib right now - his deal is awful, his campaign is worse, and he was clearly never serious about Leave being remotely on the table - *but* you at least have to respect Cameron for offering us, and giving us, a vote.
Miliband would never have done so in a million years.
IIRC Miliband Snr was one of the chief one's arguing that the Lisbon treaty was just a 'tidying up exercise' after the French and Dutch voted down the Constitution.
The best way to deal with him is to remind him of his complicity in extraordinary rendition at every opportunity.
And not, like @Philip_Thompson, a generalised bunch of bolleaux.
Philip's examples were by no means bollocks. Unlike most of your contributions.
To pick up immediately on one specific example he made.
We currently charge 5% VAT on home energy costs. We are forced to do this because of EU laws. A past Tory government was stupid enough to impose VAT on a basic essential and when they were replaced the incoming Government was not allowed by EU laws to completely remove that tax. Now I realise that to someone of your sort of wealth a mere 5% is probably an insignificant trifle but to many of the poorest in the country it is yet another cost they can ill afford and one that any reasonable independent government would remove. Of course being in the EU they are not allowed to.
I have distilled your point down to its one basic essential:
"A past Tory government was stupid enough to impose VAT on a basic essential."
ie we retained sovereignty such that we imposed the tax.
Did subsequent governments try to remove it? Please supply links to this if this was the case because I am always keen to slightly lessen my idiocy.
It sets out in terms even you should be able to understand how the Tories imposed VAT on household heating and how, after the Labour victory in 1997, the Government were prevented from removing it entirely as it could not be reduced below 5% under EU law.
I hope your idiocy is at least partially ameliorated.
Well, we don't know whether that great strategist Gordon Brown wanted to lower it to below 5% do we? The Lab manifesto said 5%.
All we know is a) he said he wanted to lower it to 5%; and b) the EU mandated minimum is 5%
While the Cons wanted to increase it, because a global organisation, the likes of which many Leavers would rather be in thrall to (in this case the UN) said it should be higher to lower emissions.
Truly a mad world we live in but no smoking gun about EU strangling our autonomy.
Nope. The main reasons given for imposing VAT on household energy were to raise money and for reasons of economic and administrative efficiency. The environmental arguments were simply a smokescreen to make a substantial tax raise more palatable
Fine. But doesn't address the issue of why 5% from Gordo.
Because that was as low as he was allowed to set it by the EU. Which brings us back to the basic concept of the EU preventing us passing laws to suit ourselves.
VAT on a basic necessity of life is a stupid idea. Even Brown got that.
Well I think it is reasonable to expect that the government will follow the official Leave campaign's manifesto. Don't you?
No. If a campaign wants a manifesto to be implemented they should win a General Election and become the government and implement it themselves.
This is a binary choice question. It is reasonable that the government implements the binary choice and that is the absolute limit to the power of the referendum. Everything else belongs to general elections.
That's also fair enough so you expect and want a non EEA/EFTA solution if Leave wins?
No I expect and want an EEA solution if Leave wins. I think the vast majority of government MPs [virtually all Remain supporting government MPs and a large majority of leave-supporting government MPs] would view the EEA as the immediate step for leaving.
Once we've left, if a party wants to leave the EEA they should put that in their manifesto. That question was not asked in this referendum so can't be answered by it either.
I suspect the British public care more about immigration than the tampon tax but once that ship has sailed they are mere passengers.
I suppose I find it curious to think that your preferred solution is one which accepts the vast majority of single market rules while having little or no input into their formulation. To me it makes no sense to vote for less rather than more influence on a market accounting for nearly 50% of our exports.
Despite tampon tax-gate I don't get the lack of sovereignty thing. We agreed to be part of a club and that club has rules. But then again that is the question that will be asked on June 23rd,
You find the idea difficult because you clearly do not understand the EEA system, nor the wider international system for deciding rules and standards. It is your own lack of knowledge that is the basic problem here.
Wonder if any of the Leavers have any views on Julie Bishops comments on the EU published in the Spectator. Interesting for a right of centre politician
"Julie Bishop, the Australian foreign minister, has said that her country would not indulge the British right’s fantasies. Australia prefers to see the world as it is rather than lose itself in nostalgia. ‘It is in our interest if a strong United Kingdom remained a part of the European Union,’ she said. ‘The EU is a significant trading partner for us; a strong UK as part of the European Union would be in Australia’s interests.’
Of course the UK being in the EU is in Australia's interests, just as it is in the USA's interests. Because our interests are aligned with the USA and Australia and Britain in the EU can align the EU more to Australia and the USA's interests.
However what that does not mean is that it is in our interests. The sovereignty we gain from leaving the EU, Australia like the USA already has. You don't see Australia begging to join the EU now do you? Them staying out of the EU and having us in is a win/win from their perspective but not from ours.
EDIT: TL;DR it is a "have cake and eat it" position from the Australian minister.
Australia is in Eurovision now!
EU membership is restricted to countries in the continent of Europe; though that isn't defined.
Not really the same thing though is it? So is Kazakhstan.
And Israel...
Indeed the epic party that is Eurovision takes place on 14th May, slap bang in the middle of the Brexit campaign.
Unfortunately Belarus is not permitted to have a naked man singing to live wolves on stage. Its health and safety gone mad!
Comments
Apart from that you were fine.
Can't remember the song, but the visuals were awesome.
If companies were obliged to report both the pre-VAT and post-VAT amounts then there'd probably be much more pressure to lower VAT rates as there is for sales taxes on the other side of the pond.
Nighty night ....
https://twitter.com/minefornothing/status/714041298622160896
During the campaign, Leave is eating into the Don't Knows, which is good. Furthermore, the big Remain leads on the phone polls have gone from 15-20 points, to 8-10. And the on-lines are showing small Leave leads.
Project Fear is about getting people out to vote who are soft Remain-ers, and make people who are 'Don't Knows', but are scared about things not working out in the near term, come out for Remain. We don't know if it will be successful, but my guess is that Remain is still 5-6 points ahead when DKs breaking for the status quo is included.
We need some negative story from Europe: a resumption of the Greek crisis, or the migrant crisis. Absent that, I think we fall 6-8 points short.
"Canada’s Stephen Harper has clearly recognised what a Conservative majority government could mean for UK-Can relations, especially in the aftermath of 2017’s promised EU referendum. Anticipating a rekindling of old, global trade links with the UK in a post ‘Brexit’ world, Harper wrote to Cameron yesterday:
“On behalf of the Government of Canada, I would like to congratulate David Cameron on his strong re-election as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom with a majority government.
“Canada and the United Kingdom share a deep and close relationship rooted in our common history and values, our tradition of parliamentary democracy, our partnership on global issues, and our shared sovereign, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.
“The potential for collaboration between our two countries is unlimited. I look forward to continuing to work with Prime Minister Cameron to ensure our collective security, including in our efforts to support Ukraine against Russian aggression and in our fight against the so-called Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, to promote the economic ties between our two countries”
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/05/09/delighted-or-disgusted-sound-and-insane-world-reacts-to-uk-general-election/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77cQAkcUgrk
Belarus entry Ivan to perform naked surrounded by live wolves
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/eurovision-2016-belarus-entry-ivan-to-perform-naked-surrounded-by-live-wolves-a6978096.html
Once we've left, if a party wants to leave the EEA they should put that in their manifesto. That question was not asked in this referendum so can't be answered by it either.
Let's get it on the table.
See: http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php
http://www.ifs.org.uk/comms/comm39.pdf
@Foxinsox reckons that it has been banned though.
With Eurovision being such a festival of campness a naked guy would have stormed it.
(JOKE)
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/719981425882226689
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
Whichever campaign gets the designation, both campaigns need to accept it and put 100% undivided attention into winning the referendum. Nothing else (should) matter.
The right result by the wrong mechanism.
Apparently, the treaty came into force on 1 February 2016 when the Belgian parliament ratified it, being the 30th entity to finish the ratification process.
It seems incomprehensible to me that the Dutch would ratify an agreement and then have a referendum on it.
Miliband would never have done so in a million years.
I suppose I find it curious to think that your preferred solution is one which accepts the vast majority of single market rules while having little or no input into their formulation. To me it makes no sense to vote for less rather than more influence on a market accounting for nearly 50% of our exports.
Despite tampon tax-gate I don't get the lack of sovereignty thing. We agreed to be part of a club and that club has rules. But then again that is the question that will be asked on June 23rd,
The best way to deal with him is to remind him of his complicity in extraordinary rendition at every opportunity.
VAT on a basic necessity of life is a stupid idea. Even Brown got that.
Personally I thought the old one a bit rotten, particularly egregious in the case of the Polish Milkmaids.
https://youtu.be/VJ920cN2HmA