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Nicola, Queen of Scots – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 17 in General
imageNicola, Queen of Scots – politicalbetting.com

The Scottish subsample from this week’s YouGov poll amused me immensely, obviously it is a sign that disillusionment with the SNP is such that people are now are moving over to a party that doesn’t even stand in Scotland subsamples of 143 are inherently unreliable and only people who don’t understand polling or betting rely on them.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,676
    edited October 17
    Why haven’t the pollsters moved to doing E&W polls rather than GB polls?

    And first.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,930
    2nd like the Tories.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 927
    Its not too difficult to understand the dominance of the SNP: it is the institutionalisation of grievance politics; the curse of the last decade. Devolution has led to a particular set of circumstances which has allowed it to become the establishment; the SNP can take credit for their successes and always blame someone (or something) else for their failings; channeling anger and frustration in to a historic cause for which total obedience and discipline is demanded. The warning signs about the problems this causes were on full display with the Salmond fiasco and its aftermath, but nothing really changes. I see no reason why this cannot go on for another 20 years; and it only really gets resolved when they get to do Scoxit (or whatever it is called); which looking back they should have done in 2014. I'm just really sad about it, as Scotland is such a beautiful place.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,940
    Its why iSage are ridiculed by many, right? They ignore the evidence from others parts of the UK, they only focus on England (Tories), and are ignorant of the current levels of restrictions in place across Europe

    https://twitter.com/__ambell/status/1449349487000948745?s=21
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,964
    tlg86 said:

    Why haven’t the pollsters moved to doing E&W polls rather than GB polls?

    And first.

    Because client newspapers want to sell throughout the whole of the country.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,940
    Missile missed target by couple of dozen miles, but people familiar with the test say China demonstrated a stunning capability that nobody thought they already had mastered.

    https://twitter.com/Dimi/status/1449463897669390337?s=20
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,407
    Perhaps the SNP's dominance says something about the power of referendums to polarise and entrench political identities, especially around questions of national identity. In Scotland the SNP have built their apparently unwavering support as champion of the Yes voters, and the Tories have done the same thing for Leave voters South of the border. The SNP's achievement is arguably more impressive, building their support on the votes of the losing side and at times polling above 45%. Perhaps us non-Tories should just be grateful that the Conservatives aren't at 52% in the polls.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,161
    wait what? Texas has a law allowing oil companies to harass people in other states who want to sue oil companies?

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/16/imperial-beach-california-exxon-mobil-climate-crisis
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144

    As we see with the current government in Westminster, you can be utterly useless in just about every way possible and still be popular - if voters do not believe the alternatives would be any better. Much of the SNP's support probably boils down to little more than that.

    Sadly, that seems to be the case; and when the party in power is blaming 'someone else' for all the woes..... in E&W case, the EU, the situation is exacerbated.

    On that note, is 'Good' Morning an appropriate phrase.

    Although what a supportive set of comments for someone on this page yesterday. Heartwarming.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,915

    Perhaps the SNP's dominance says something about the power of referendums to polarise and entrench political identities, especially around questions of national identity. In Scotland the SNP have built their apparently unwavering support as champion of the Yes voters, and the Tories have done the same thing for Leave voters South of the border. The SNP's achievement is arguably more impressive, building their support on the votes of the losing side and at times polling above 45%. Perhaps us non-Tories should just be grateful that the Conservatives aren't at 52% in the polls.

    It's a very good point. I guess the explanation for the Tories not being on 52% is that Leave won. That has led some to move on and others to see what Leaving actually looks like. My guess is that the SNP would not be polling at the levels it is now in an independent Scotland.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144

    As we see with the current government in Westminster, you can be utterly useless in just about every way possible and still be popular - if voters do not believe the alternatives would be any better. Much of the SNP's support probably boils down to little more than that.

    Sadly, that seems to be the case; and when the party in power is blaming 'someone else' for all the woes..... in E&W case, the EU, the situation is exacerbated.

    On that note, is 'Good' Morning an appropriate phrase.

    Although what a supportive set of comments for someone on this page yesterday. Heartwarming.

    To be fair, the government doesn't just blame the EU, there's doctors, businesses, judges, the BBC and a whole host of others. In fact, it seems that the only part of the British state not to have any responsibility for how things are playing out is the British government!

    I'ver given this a 'Like' because I agree. Not because I 'like' the position in which my country finds itself, and into which it's government has put it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,454
    Morning all. Interesting header from TSE, though in historical context Labour's dominance was even greater and lasted for a lot longer, around half a century.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    Slow Sunday? At least the cricket World Cup, if only the t20 one, starts this afternoon
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,477

    Perhaps the SNP's dominance says something about the power of referendums to polarise and entrench political identities, especially around questions of national identity. In Scotland the SNP have built their apparently unwavering support as champion of the Yes voters, and the Tories have done the same thing for Leave voters South of the border. The SNP's achievement is arguably more impressive, building their support on the votes of the losing side and at times polling above 45%. Perhaps us non-Tories should just be grateful that the Conservatives aren't at 52% in the polls.

    It's a very good point. I guess the explanation for the Tories not being on 52% is that Leave won. That has led some to move on and others to see what Leaving actually looks like. My guess is that the SNP would not be polling at the levels it is now in an independent Scotland.

    In that eventuality, the SNP will have fallen apart!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,465
    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,930

    Slow Sunday? At least the cricket World Cup, if only the t20 one, starts this afternoon

    Indeed it does. Some of us might even be lucky enough, to have tickets to a few of the matches ;)
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,743
    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    One would hope that this thread would shut up Stuart Dixon for good on the subject sub samples
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192
    Sandpit said:

    Slow Sunday? At least the cricket World Cup, if only the t20 one, starts this afternoon

    Indeed it does. Some of us might even be lucky enough, to have tickets to a few of the matches ;)
    I watched the IPL final. It was a good game but the form of Morgan was deeply concerning. His fielding was frankly shocking, he seems to have forgotten how to bat in the last couple of months and his calls as Captain weren't great. On current form he surely doesn't get near the England side. It's a dilemma.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,465
    DavidL said:

    I fear it is now too late for Labour north of the border. They are too weak to take on the SNP in their former strongholds and their former supporters have really got out of the habit of voting for them.

    Glasgow is the prime example.

    The SNP took over the council for the first time in history, and by all accounts it's a disaster.

    But people still vote for them.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I would gave thought Puttnam would have been the one to have been described as making outbursts of such a nature.
  • DavidL said:

    Nicola's real skill has been to move the SNP from a broadly neutral/centrist position under Salmond to being a party of the centre left. This is what has allowed the SNP to take over from Scottish Labour and basically eliminate them as a major political force in Scotland. As @Carnyx points out when Labour was the centre left party of Scottish politics they dominated for over 50 years.

    What I find truly astonishing is how acquiescent Labour were in that elimination. They had ruled Scotland for a very long time by being "not Tories". They seemed completely incapable of turning the guns, Singapore like, on the SNP. They still are. An offer by Douglas Ross for the Unionist parties to cooperate was immediately spurned by, *checks both internet and calendar* Sarwar who was still more interested in fighting the Tories than being eliminated.

    I fear it is now too late for Labour north of the border. They are too weak to take on the SNP in their former strongholds and their former supporters have really got out of the habit of voting for them. They also have nothing of great interest to say because their policies, such as they are, are every bit as bureaucratic, centralising, public sector dominant and as indifferent to economic growth as those of the SNP.

    The Tories have benefited from this suicide to the extent that they are second in Scotland and have reasonable representation in the Parliament. But there are massive areas of Scotland's central belt where most of the population live where the Tories are simply not competitive and it is difficult to see how they can be since the dominance of and reliance upon the public sector is so deeply ingrained.

    Very much my thoughts
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,712
    Yes, the SNP will be fine. Nicola probably will be too though the last year or so has been Interesting in seeing at least some public divisions at last, if for unexpected reasons.

    And now, a break.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192
    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I fear it is now too late for Labour north of the border. They are too weak to take on the SNP in their former strongholds and their former supporters have really got out of the habit of voting for them.

    Glasgow is the prime example.

    The SNP took over the council for the first time in history, and by all accounts it's a disaster.

    But people still vote for them.
    Glasgow was almost Labour's last bastion in Scotland but it too has gone. They still have a reasonable number of councillors there but the trend is very much against them.

    The Conservatives have 7/85. There is no opposition despite the incompetence.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,437
    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192

    DavidL said:

    What I find truly astonishing is how acquiescent Labour were in that elimination

    Labour's problem was they had run for years - nay decades - on "not being London Tories" - the SNP simply stole that tune and played it better - and not having a London based party themselves, were immune to "in-hock to London" accusations.

    As yea sow, so shall yea reap.

    The only thing I can see ending SNP hegemony is splits within the independence movement - and while that may be happening among some activists there is very little suggestion its happening electorally.
    Indeed, the performance of Alba in the Scottish elections shows just how hard that internal split is going to be. I do think we are getting near the end of Nicola though. Despite the boost she got from Covid and her determination to drag that out she has had a difficult year or so and the aftermath of the Salmond prosecution isn't quite over yet.

    The SNP have had 2 political giants in a small country in a row. The best hope for everyone else is that if Nicola does go the SNP have no one even close to her or Salmond in ability to replace her and holding it all together may prove a real challenge.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,940
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I fear it is now too late for Labour north of the border. They are too weak to take on the SNP in their former strongholds and their former supporters have really got out of the habit of voting for them.

    Glasgow is the prime example.

    The SNP took over the council for the first time in history, and by all accounts it's a disaster.

    But people still vote for them.
    Glasgow was almost Labour's last bastion in Scotland but it too has gone. They still have a reasonable number of councillors there but the trend is very much against them.

    The Conservatives have 7/85. There is no opposition despite the incompetence.
    GLASGOW is braced for severe disruption during the COP26 global climate summit after rail workers and refuge collectors both voted to go on strike.

    ScotRail workers will strike from November 1 to 12 amid a dispute over pay and conditions.

    Meanwhile, refuse workers have also threatened to strike during the conference unless council body Cosla offers them a better pay deal.

    COP26 will take place in Glasgow from October 31 to November 12 and will see tens of thousands of global leaders, activists, campaigners and protesters descend on the city


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19649555.cop26-glasgow-rail-bin-strikes-set-bring-severe-disruption-summit/

    Of course it will be the Toreees fault!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,454
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I fear it is now too late for Labour north of the border. They are too weak to take on the SNP in their former strongholds and their former supporters have really got out of the habit of voting for them.

    Glasgow is the prime example.

    The SNP took over the council for the first time in history, and by all accounts it's a disaster.

    But people still vote for them.
    Glasgow was almost Labour's last bastion in Scotland but it too has gone. They still have a reasonable number of councillors there but the trend is very much against them.

    The Conservatives have 7/85. There is no opposition despite the incompetence.
    One point for consideration is to what extent 'Labour' or 'Conservative' councils or oppositions are actually Unionist coalitions in all but name. In which case, objectively, Labour are further losing their distinction from the Conservatives, as well as being seen by some to be in bed with them: Better Together all over again.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,930
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Slow Sunday? At least the cricket World Cup, if only the t20 one, starts this afternoon

    Indeed it does. Some of us might even be lucky enough, to have tickets to a few of the matches ;)
    I watched the IPL final. It was a good game but the form of Morgan was deeply concerning. His fielding was frankly shocking, he seems to have forgotten how to bat in the last couple of months and his calls as Captain weren't great. On current form he surely doesn't get near the England side. It's a dilemma.
    I’ve never really been able to get into the IPL, even though it’s been played a couple of times in my own backyard. One of the teams was staying in the hotel next dooor to my office, with two team buses parked outside for the past month. I guess it’s the lack of affinity for the made-up teams, or perhaps the absurd amounts of money involved in the tournament and the sense that you’re constantly being marketed to.

    The World Cup, on the other hand, is much more straightforward, I know who all the teams are and who I want to win!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,930
    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,701
    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    Puttnam barely mentions Brexit. His lament, with several examples, is that the government is uninterested in debate or evidence or democracy.

    ... but I can’t be the only member of the House of Lords who’s become increasingly frustrated by the fact that in Parliament, as elsewhere, we no longer engage in serious ‘debate’ – we simply trade assertions.

    ‘Debate’ as I have always understood it, is ‘persuasion’ based on competing interpretations of evidence; and the ability to form a compelling argument and, where necessary, seek compromise.

    Sadly, that’s been substituted by a ‘dialogue of the deaf, typified by the Government’s refusal to answer serious questions, or offer any well-thought-through arguments in defence of seemingly immutable positions.

    Their view appears to be ‘we are the Government - take it or leave it!’
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,323
    Good morning, everyone.

    Isn't the Scottish situation simply a matter of how things are destined to be for at least the short term?

    SNP aren't quite on half the vote but aren't that far off. But they have a solid anti-UK position, whereas the unionist vote is split three ways (not quite evenly, but even so). The only way, beyond (as mentioned above) SNP splitting, for this to change is by at least a semi-formal co-operative agreement between the unionists, which seems unlikely.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,940
    Comparing “UK” to Europe and calling for measures europe have but ignoring countries in rUK wrt to England is telling.

    https://twitter.com/ThatRyanChap/status/1449636362995523590?s=20
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,478
    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Slow Sunday? At least the cricket World Cup, if only the t20 one, starts this afternoon

    Indeed it does. Some of us might even be lucky enough, to have tickets to a few of the matches ;)
    I watched the IPL final. It was a good game but the form of Morgan was deeply concerning. His fielding was frankly shocking, he seems to have forgotten how to bat in the last couple of months and his calls as Captain weren't great. On current form he surely doesn't get near the England side. It's a dilemma.
    I’ve never really been able to get into the IPL, even though it’s been played a couple of times in my own backyard. One of the teams was staying in the hotel next dooor to my office, with two team buses parked outside for the past month. I guess it’s the lack of affinity for the made-up teams, or perhaps the absurd amounts of money involved in the tournament and the sense that you’re constantly being marketed to.

    The World Cup, on the other hand, is much more straightforward, I know who all the teams are and who I want to win!
    It does showcase great cricket by many of the best players in the world. Moeen Ali was superb in the final and seems to have rediscovered his early batting promise in the shorter forms of the game. Morgan, sadly, wasn't.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,436

    Good morning, everyone.

    Isn't the Scottish situation simply a matter of how things are destined to be for at least the short term?

    SNP aren't quite on half the vote but aren't that far off. But they have a solid anti-UK position, whereas the unionist vote is split three ways (not quite evenly, but even so). The only way, beyond (as mentioned above) SNP splitting, for this to change is by at least a semi-formal co-operative agreement between the unionists, which seems unlikely.

    Maybe the SNP is just coalescing the anti-Tory vote at the moment.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,535

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    Puttnam barely mentions Brexit. His lament, with several examples, is that the government is uninterested in debate or evidence or democracy.

    ... but I can’t be the only member of the House of Lords who’s become increasingly frustrated by the fact that in Parliament, as elsewhere, we no longer engage in serious ‘debate’ – we simply trade assertions.

    ‘Debate’ as I have always understood it, is ‘persuasion’ based on competing interpretations of evidence; and the ability to form a compelling argument and, where necessary, seek compromise.

    Sadly, that’s been substituted by a ‘dialogue of the deaf, typified by the Government’s refusal to answer serious questions, or offer any well-thought-through arguments in defence of seemingly immutable positions.

    Their view appears to be ‘we are the Government - take it or leave it!’
    I’m not sure that is a new thing: WS Gilbert was complaining about it in HMS Pinafore and Iolanthe over 140 years ago…
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,964
    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Plenty of leavers on here were cheerleading Londoners being out of petrol, unable to get to work, businesses seeing reduced turnover yet again after covid. Some idiots enjoy seeing their "opponents" suffer.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207
    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    Labour Party luvvie doesn't like the Government.

    What a shock. I'm sure the government can cope with this outburst as a Labour Lord retires.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,323
    Mr. Sandpit, the media have also been somewhere between inept and harmful to the country when it comes to stoking panics when they can (earlier on food, more recently on petrol).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Plenty of leavers on here were cheerleading Londoners being out of petrol, unable to get to work, businesses seeing reduced turnover yet again after covid. Some idiots enjoy seeing their "opponents" suffer.
    I must have missed that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,930

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,586
    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    House of Lords = House of Unelected Has-Beens!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,478
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    Quite. We both voted remain, but I understood why others voted leave. I thought the vote should be honoured, he thought a new vote should be held, clearly because the ‘wrong’ outcome had occurred.
    The pandemic has ended our car sharing, plus now more irregular hours/wfh. He is a nice person, but on this we just could not agree.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,446
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Plenty of leavers on here were cheerleading Londoners being out of petrol, unable to get to work, businesses seeing reduced turnover yet again after covid. Some idiots enjoy seeing their "opponents" suffer.
    I must have missed that.
    Yes, me too.
  • I think this is Harbi Kullane, the father of the suspected killer, talking to the BBC File On Four in 2010 about the radicalisation of young Somali men

    CUFFE: The Intelligence Service, of course, won’t reveal the source of their information about young British Somalis recruited to al-Shabaab. But rumours about youngsters being brainwashed and radicalised are causing growing concern among British Somalis – particularly the older generation, who fled chaos in Somalia and just want to see the return of stability and peace. Harbi Kullane tries to liaise between the community here and Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government, which has international backing, but is seen by many Somalis as a puppet of the west. He is critical of British Somalis for their reluctance to speak openly about al-Shabaab.

    KULLANE: If you’re walking in the street of Camden, if you walk in the streets of Southall or if you go to Leicester or even Birmingham you hear that young children who were here studying the religion have disappeared and gone back to Somalia.
    CUFFE: So have you met parents here in Britain who say that their young people have disappeared?
    KULLANE: At the moment the difficulty that we’re having with our society and diaspora is no parents are willing to come forward and say they are missing my child.
    CUFFE: If parents are keeping so quiet about that, aren’t they contributing to the problem?
    KULLANE: Directly or indirectly, they’re contributing it, but if they come forward and they say, “Our son has been there,” they fear some sort of a repercussion from the law, often from the country that they are being hosted.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/02_11_10_fo4_somali.pdf
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,853
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,478
    isam said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Plenty of leavers on here were cheerleading Londoners being out of petrol, unable to get to work, businesses seeing reduced turnover yet again after covid. Some idiots enjoy seeing their "opponents" suffer.
    I must have missed that.
    Yes, me too.
    There were some who linked remainers living in London, with being the worst hit by the fuel crisis. Not sure I’d call it cheerleading, but remain was definitely mentioned.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207
    isam said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Plenty of leavers on here were cheerleading Londoners being out of petrol, unable to get to work, businesses seeing reduced turnover yet again after covid. Some idiots enjoy seeing their "opponents" suffer.
    I must have missed that.
    Yes, me too.
    Me too.

    I seem to recall it was Scott and his FBPE crowd that "enjoyed" the BS panic they sparked.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,478

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Exactly. All sides have been guilty of this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,389
    edited October 17
    The SNP's dominance in Scotland has to be understood on the basis that it has taken Scottish Labour's core vote.

    For example, Scottish Labour won most seats and votes in Scotland at every UK general election from 1964 until the SNP overtook them in 2015. At Holyrood too Scottish Labour won most seats and votes from the Scottish Parliament's creation in 1999 again until the SNP overtook them in 2007.

    So unless and until Scottish Labour regains the centre left vote in Scotland, the SNP will still lead. A Scottish Labour revival would probably require a No vote in any future indyref2 to settle the independence issue for a generation. However obviously the Tories are not going to allow that any time soon given they can use the threat of a PM Starmer propped up by the SNP in a hung parliament to get their vote out in England
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    Sandpit said:

    Slow Sunday? At least the cricket World Cup, if only the t20 one, starts this afternoon

    Indeed it does. Some of us might even be lucky enough, to have tickets to a few of the matches ;)
    ENVIOUS!!!!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Are you holding up the Daily Heil as an example to be Mirrored, or something to be avoided?

    I despise the Heil whether they're on an issue agreeing with me or not.

    I don't think there's many people here who hold up the Heil as the height of intelligent reporting. It seems to be our posters on the left that are most obsessed with it for some reason.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,853

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Are you holding up the Daily Heil as an example to be Mirrored, or something to be avoided?

    I despise the Heil whether they're on an issue agreeing with me or not.

    I don't think there's many people here who hold up the Heil as the height of intelligent reporting. It seems to be our posters on the left that are most obsessed with it for some reason.
    You guys were wanking yourself silly to that headline when it came out.

    My god the hypocrisy and selective memory is outstanding.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,893
    Meanwhile on Completely Normal Island...


  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,853
    Dura_Ace said:

    Meanwhile on Completely Normal Island...


    Respect
  • isamisam Posts: 38,446
    Sound like David Ames’s murderer, Ali Harbi Ali, lived in Kentish Town/Tufnell Park - Sir Keir is his MP.

    Is it a bit unnecessary to describe him as being of Somalian descent, rather than mention it straight away? He was born in England.

    His father, whom he lived with, was formerly an advisor to the Somalian PM apparently

    https://twitter.com/avalon709/status/1449542446761848832?s=21
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Are you holding up the Daily Heil as an example to be Mirrored, or something to be avoided?

    I despise the Heil whether they're on an issue agreeing with me or not.

    I don't think there's many people here who hold up the Heil as the height of intelligent reporting. It seems to be our posters on the left that are most obsessed with it for some reason.
    You guys were wanking yourself silly to that headline when it came out.

    My god the hypocrisy and selective memory is outstanding.
    Bullshit. I never backed that headline. Find a single post by me personally that did that. I don't remember that many others here doing so either, it was the media that bigged it up more.

    Your "they all look the same to me" inability to see the difference between posters on the right really makes what could be intelligent posts by you look really stupid. You'll take one thing someone said, then another that someone else said - and merge the two as "hypocrisy" as opposed to just being different people. 🤦‍♂️
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,834
    FPT:
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 38% (-4)
    LAB: 37% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+3)

    via @DeltapollUK, 13 - 15 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 26 Jul

    Quite an odd poll. Looks like movement straight from the Tories to the LDs.

    Tory Remainers finally incensed by Brexit ‘shortages’? Suggests it won’t last IF the shortages ease
    Shortages are just one thing; increased taxes and prices will also potentially begin to impact.

    Disaffected Tory voters flocking to the LibDems is nothing new.

    But this is just one poll - see how things look by the end of the year.
    It looks as if pensioners are going to receive a near 4% rise in April and I assume other benefits will rise by the same amount

    Also expect a substantial rise in the minimum wage in the budget, together with other measures to help the low paid

    I would be very surprised if Rishi does not do the above

    Where's the money coming from Big_G?
    Exactly

    And that is the unanswered question for both parties as they face the same demands

    At least on the 27th we may have some idea
    Easy - from future generations
    I assume you mean IHT which I have argued incessantly with @HYUFD about as I believe I million exemption is too high

    If not maybe you could expand your view
    The only options are borrow more or create a wealth tax - IHT won’t generate much
    As a matter of interest how do you see a wealth tax working
    My suggestion: 1% pa on all individual assets over £1m. Legal obligation to self-declare and complete an annual return.

    So, assets of £1m = £0 Wealth Tax (WT) pa
    Assets of £1.5m = £5k WT pac(£500k over threshold x 1%)
    Assets of £2m = £10k WT pa (£1m over threshold x 1%)
    Assets of £10m = £90k WT pa
    Assets of £101m = £1m WT pa
    etc.
    Seems fair enough
    I would probably go for 0.5%, but agree with the principle.
    Will kill off farming. All the land will have to be sold to housing developers.
    Sorry Tim, I appreciate you are a long way away but this comment is dumb on several levels:

    First, pulling <1% per annum out of large estates will never bankrupt those who own them.

    Secondly, do you realise how tight the planning rules are in the UK, how difficult it is to convert farmland to housing?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,173

    DavidL said:

    What I find truly astonishing is how acquiescent Labour were in that elimination

    Labour's problem was they had run for years - nay decades - on "not being London Tories" - the SNP simply stole that tune and played it better - and not having a London based party themselves, were immune to "in-hock to London" accusations.

    As yea sow, so shall yea reap.

    The only thing I can see ending SNP hegemony is splits within the independence movement - and while that may be happening among some activists there is very little suggestion its happening electorally.
    The succession to Sturgeon will be a key moment. It could lead to the SNP being more interested in fighting each other than the Tories/London.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,944
    I'm a bit hesitant to comment on Scotland as a non-resident, but isn't the situation really quite straightforward?

    There's only room for one major centre-left party in Scotland. It used to be Labour, but they became incredibly complacent and took the voters for granted. Now it's the SNP, who've taken up Labour's mantle with a dose of independence on top. The SNP will remain completely dominant until either a) Scotland gets independence, b) the SNP becomes as complacent as Labour was (and Sturgeon goes), or c) the desire for independence magically dissipates. I can't see any of these happening within the next five years, maybe longer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,646
    isam said:

    Sound like David Ames’s murderer, Ali Harbi Ali, lived in Kentish Town/Tufnell Park - Sir Keir is his MP.

    Is it a bit unnecessary to describe him as being of Somalian descent, rather than mention it straight away? He was born in England.

    His father, whom he lived with, was formerly an advisor to the Somalian PM apparently

    https://twitter.com/avalon709/status/1449542446761848832?s=21

    I am not sure at all as to what you are trying to say here.

    Are you implicating Starmer and the Labour Party and/or are you demanding that the suspect should be referred to as an immigrant despite the country of birth?

    Whatever your point(s) they appear both irrelevant and tasteless.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,180

    As we see with the current government in Westminster, you can be utterly useless in just about every way possible and still be popular - if voters do not believe the alternatives would be any better. Much of the SNP's support probably boils down to little more than that.

    With voters knowing the opposition (or oppositions in Scotland’s case) would be even more useless? Still, a few more PPBs with Union Jacks will sort it.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Exactly. All sides have been guilty of this.
    Yep. And it needs to stop before we end up heading for civil war as America is.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,192

    DavidL said:

    What I find truly astonishing is how acquiescent Labour were in that elimination

    Labour's problem was they had run for years - nay decades - on "not being London Tories" - the SNP simply stole that tune and played it better - and not having a London based party themselves, were immune to "in-hock to London" accusations.

    As yea sow, so shall yea reap.

    The only thing I can see ending SNP hegemony is splits within the independence movement - and while that may be happening among some activists there is very little suggestion its happening electorally.
    The succession to Sturgeon will be a key moment. It could lead to the SNP being more interested in fighting each other than the Tories/London.
    She's looking a bit ragged these days and clearly working for an international sinecure after a lengthy period in office.

    Her husband's control of the SNP has helped secure her position but frankly looks a bit tin pot and is getting far more attention than it used to. It doesn't help that he is incompetent either. I think we are near the end but she needs something else to do first. She is too young to simply retire.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 2,142

    I'm a bit hesitant to comment on Scotland as a non-resident, but isn't the situation really quite straightforward?

    There's only room for one major centre-left party in Scotland. It used to be Labour, but they became incredibly complacent and took the voters for granted. Now it's the SNP, who've taken up Labour's mantle with a dose of independence on top. The SNP will remain completely dominant until either a) Scotland gets independence, b) the SNP becomes as complacent as Labour was (and Sturgeon goes), or c) the desire for independence magically dissipates. I can't see any of these happening within the next five years, maybe longer.

    Sadly, no, it's not that straightforward.
    The big part of the picture you're missing is the escalation of rhetoric on the unionist side by the Conservatives. It was a very effective way of capturing unionist votes both in Scotland and England, but it created a no-man's land.
    Without understanding the above, it's impossible to understand how he character of Scottish politics has changed since ten years ago, and how little room any party now has to manoeuvre in.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,746
    edited October 17

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Plenty of leavers on here were cheerleading Londoners being out of petrol, unable to get to work, businesses seeing reduced turnover yet again after covid. Some idiots enjoy seeing their "opponents" suffer.
    I think I linked them somewhat in one comment, along the lines of 'most fuel panics seem to be in areas that voted remain'.

    It seems fairly reasonable (and maybe even poetic justice) that the demographic where the enthusiats were boosting the fake narrative should fall prey to their own propaganda.

    The bizarre thing is that London is perhaps the one area of the country where top quality public transport exists, combined with lower car ownership, so should be able to live mostly without cars.

    I think a broader (or perhaps narrower) problem is that there are a lot of pure died in the wool recalcitrants out there digging themselves ever deeper down their rabbit holes. As things get gradually sorted out in the UK-EU relationship - one example is the EU completing their delayed electronic border / visa system in a couple of years - that group may turn eventually into an analog of the declining community in Taiwan who want to reunify with China.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,180
    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Traitors and quislings?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,602

    FPT:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 38% (-4)
    LAB: 37% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+3)

    via @DeltapollUK, 13 - 15 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 26 Jul

    Quite an odd poll. Looks like movement straight from the Tories to the LDs.

    Tory Remainers finally incensed by Brexit ‘shortages’? Suggests it won’t last IF the shortages ease
    Shortages are just one thing; increased taxes and prices will also potentially begin to impact.

    Disaffected Tory voters flocking to the LibDems is nothing new.

    But this is just one poll - see how things look by the end of the year.
    It looks as if pensioners are going to receive a near 4% rise in April and I assume other benefits will rise by the same amount

    Also expect a substantial rise in the minimum wage in the budget, together with other measures to help the low paid

    I would be very surprised if Rishi does not do the above

    Where's the money coming from Big_G?
    Exactly

    And that is the unanswered question for both parties as they face the same demands

    At least on the 27th we may have some idea
    Easy - from future generations
    I assume you mean IHT which I have argued incessantly with @HYUFD about as I believe I million exemption is too high

    If not maybe you could expand your view
    The only options are borrow more or create a wealth tax - IHT won’t generate much
    As a matter of interest how do you see a wealth tax working
    My suggestion: 1% pa on all individual assets over £1m. Legal obligation to self-declare and complete an annual return.

    So, assets of £1m = £0 Wealth Tax (WT) pa
    Assets of £1.5m = £5k WT pac(£500k over threshold x 1%)
    Assets of £2m = £10k WT pa (£1m over threshold x 1%)
    Assets of £10m = £90k WT pa
    Assets of £101m = £1m WT pa
    etc.
    Seems fair enough
    I would probably go for 0.5%, but agree with the principle.
    Will kill off farming. All the land will have to be sold to housing developers.
    Sorry Tim, I appreciate you are a long way away but this comment is dumb on several levels:

    First, pulling 1% per annum out of large estates will never bankrupt those who own them.

    Secondly, do you realise how tight the planning rules are in the UK, how difficult it is to convert farmland to housing?
    Wealth is not liquidity. You don't have to go with the stereotype of a little old widow living on the state pension in a mansion to see that lots of high net asset people would struggle to produce 1pc cash every year. That's why racing on death when everything gets liquidated anyway is so handy. You would have to have a roll over till death option for the asset rich, cash poor, so why not go to enhanced death duties anyway?
  • isam said:

    Sound like David Ames’s murderer, Ali Harbi Ali, lived in Kentish Town/Tufnell Park - Sir Keir is his MP.

    Is it a bit unnecessary to describe him as being of Somalian descent, rather than mention it straight away? He was born in England.

    His father, whom he lived with, was formerly an advisor to the Somalian PM apparently

    https://twitter.com/avalon709/status/1449542446761848832?s=21

    It is the same as with any moral panic - if you can categorise the threat as the "other", you can deflect away from your own moral failings.

    Jo Cox was murdered by a far right lunatic, so its ok to be hard right and want to drown migrants and call judges the enemy, thats safe still. David Amess was murdered by a "Somali" man. So its ok to call the Tories scum, thats safe.

    Or, we do the hard bit and look into ourselves. People can have different policies and idea without being seen as some kind of enemy. And yes, mea culpa I can point at some immoral (IMHO) Tory policies and call them out. That doesn't mean I think the "smirking cow" Priti Patel is evil and needs to be murdered. I just fundamentally disagree with the people who have been gaslit to support such policies.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,173

    Good morning, everyone.

    Isn't the Scottish situation simply a matter of how things are destined to be for at least the short term?

    SNP aren't quite on half the vote but aren't that far off. But they have a solid anti-UK position, whereas the unionist vote is split three ways (not quite evenly, but even so). The only way, beyond (as mentioned above) SNP splitting, for this to change is by at least a semi-formal co-operative agreement between the unionists, which seems unlikely.

    It's easier for Nationalists to bury their differences because they are doing so in order to achieve a change, and so can look forward to being able to have open political disagreements once the chance (independence) has been achieved.

    This is not the case for Unionists, who are seeking to preserve the constitutional status quo. The changes they want to achieve necessarily require political disagreements between Unionists.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,610


    Secondly, do you realise how tight the planning rules are in the UK, how difficult it is to convert farmland to housing?

    I like this idea, you'd lose a little bit of GDP but in exchange everybody's house and garden would be 50x as big.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,602
    IshmaelZ said:

    FPT:

    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    eek said:

    FPT:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Westminster voting intention:

    CON: 38% (-4)
    LAB: 37% (-)
    LDEM: 9% (+3)

    via @DeltapollUK, 13 - 15 Oct
    Chgs. w/ 26 Jul

    Quite an odd poll. Looks like movement straight from the Tories to the LDs.

    Tory Remainers finally incensed by Brexit ‘shortages’? Suggests it won’t last IF the shortages ease
    Shortages are just one thing; increased taxes and prices will also potentially begin to impact.

    Disaffected Tory voters flocking to the LibDems is nothing new.

    But this is just one poll - see how things look by the end of the year.
    It looks as if pensioners are going to receive a near 4% rise in April and I assume other benefits will rise by the same amount

    Also expect a substantial rise in the minimum wage in the budget, together with other measures to help the low paid

    I would be very surprised if Rishi does not do the above

    Where's the money coming from Big_G?
    Exactly

    And that is the unanswered question for both parties as they face the same demands

    At least on the 27th we may have some idea
    Easy - from future generations
    I assume you mean IHT which I have argued incessantly with @HYUFD about as I believe I million exemption is too high

    If not maybe you could expand your view
    The only options are borrow more or create a wealth tax - IHT won’t generate much
    As a matter of interest how do you see a wealth tax working
    My suggestion: 1% pa on all individual assets over £1m. Legal obligation to self-declare and complete an annual return.

    So, assets of £1m = £0 Wealth Tax (WT) pa
    Assets of £1.5m = £5k WT pac(£500k over threshold x 1%)
    Assets of £2m = £10k WT pa (£1m over threshold x 1%)
    Assets of £10m = £90k WT pa
    Assets of £101m = £1m WT pa
    etc.
    Seems fair enough
    I would probably go for 0.5%, but agree with the principle.
    Will kill off farming. All the land will have to be sold to housing developers.
    Sorry Tim, I appreciate you are a long way away but this comment is dumb on several levels:

    First, pulling 1% per annum out of large estates will never bankrupt those who own them.

    Secondly, do you realise how tight the planning rules are in the UK, how difficult it is to convert farmland to housing?
    Wealth is not liquidity. You don't have to go with the stereotype of a little old widow living on the state pension in a mansion to see that lots of high net asset people would struggle to produce 1pc cash every year. That's why racing on death when everything gets liquidated anyway is so handy. You would have to have a roll over till death option for the asset rich, cash poor, so why not go to enhanced death duties anyway?
    PS had to delete the less than symbol cos it fucks up the quoting. You wrote less than 1%.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,746

    isam said:

    Sound like David Ames’s murderer, Ali Harbi Ali, lived in Kentish Town/Tufnell Park - Sir Keir is his MP.

    Is it a bit unnecessary to describe him as being of Somalian descent, rather than mention it straight away? He was born in England.

    His father, whom he lived with, was formerly an advisor to the Somalian PM apparently

    https://twitter.com/avalon709/status/1449542446761848832?s=21

    I am not sure at all as to what you are trying to say here.

    Are you implicating Starmer and the Labour Party and/or are you demanding that the suspect should be referred to as an immigrant despite the country of birth?

    Whatever your point(s) they appear both irrelevant and tasteless.

    I think it's what was Mr Ali doing in Southend seeing Southend's MP when he didn't live there...

    As with a lot of things there seems to have been multiple screwups here.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,459

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Exactly. All sides have been guilty of this.
    Yep. And it needs to stop before we end up heading for civil war as America is.
    I cannot see how. It is now so ingrained in our politics and political discourse. I came here having been on a couple of Facebook politics groups. The level of venom is horrendous there. On all sides.

    What does not help is whatever side sees purity in their views and abuse is acceptable.

    It’s really a very gloomy scenario.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207
    @Gallowgate I'm wondering what "wanking yourself silly" you thought you saw when that article came out so went back to thread on the night that article came out: https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/11/03/tonights-local-by-election-previewed-by-harry-hayfield/

    Not a single positive comment I can find on that headline in the entire thread, except for one troll subsequently banned.

    I think @Casino_Royale put it best in that thread:
    I hesitate to put myself in the same camp as Alastair Meeks (particularly when he's been so royally pompous, rude and condescending these past few months) but I've never taken The Express seriously.

    The Daily Mail however, I do take far more seriously, and that headline makes me worry*.

    (*before Remainers get excited thinking I'm agreeing with them, I don't, and I won't, but this is the sort of thing that risks being unleashed if Brexit is gleefully frustrated, or the substance of it is, even if I agree the Mail is bang out of order in stoking it)

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/1326386/#Comment_1326386
  • eekeek Posts: 15,746
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Exactly. All sides have been guilty of this.
    Yep. And it needs to stop before we end up heading for civil war as America is.
    I cannot see how. It is now so ingrained in our politics and political discourse. I came here having been on a couple of Facebook politics groups. The level of venom is horrendous there. On all sides.

    What does not help is whatever side sees purity in their views and abuse is acceptable.

    It’s really a very gloomy scenario.
    Ban Facebook or at least it's algorithms that reinforce people's viewpoints while hiding opposing views.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    Well it does limit my sympathy when I see some Brexiteer fisheries or farmer going bust because they cannot export or get staff.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,403

    I think this is Harbi Kullane, the father of the suspected killer, talking to the BBC File On Four in 2010 about the radicalisation of young Somali men

    CUFFE: The Intelligence Service, of course, won’t reveal the source of their information about young British Somalis recruited to al-Shabaab. But rumours about youngsters being brainwashed and radicalised are causing growing concern among British Somalis – particularly the older generation, who fled chaos in Somalia and just want to see the return of stability and peace. Harbi Kullane tries to liaise between the community here and Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government, which has international backing, but is seen by many Somalis as a puppet of the west. He is critical of British Somalis for their reluctance to speak openly about al-Shabaab.

    KULLANE: If you’re walking in the street of Camden, if you walk in the streets of Southall or if you go to Leicester or even Birmingham you hear that young children who were here studying the religion have disappeared and gone back to Somalia.
    CUFFE: So have you met parents here in Britain who say that their young people have disappeared?
    KULLANE: At the moment the difficulty that we’re having with our society and diaspora is no parents are willing to come forward and say they are missing my child.
    CUFFE: If parents are keeping so quiet about that, aren’t they contributing to the problem?
    KULLANE: Directly or indirectly, they’re contributing it, but if they come forward and they say, “Our son has been there,” they fear some sort of a repercussion from the law, often from the country that they are being hosted.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/02_11_10_fo4_somali.pdf
    Oh my
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,015
    DavidL said:

    Nicola's real skill has been to move the SNP from a broadly neutral/centrist position under Salmond to being a party of the centre left. This is what has allowed the SNP to take over from Scottish Labour and basically eliminate them as a major political force in Scotland. As @Carnyx points out when Labour was the centre left party of Scottish politics they dominated for over 50 years.

    What I find truly astonishing is how acquiescent Labour were in that elimination.

    That is the really astonishing thing.

    A party that has the kind of overwhelming control that Labour had in Scotland prior to 2007 (& still has in Wales today) possesses enormous amounts of power and patronage at its disposal. It really should not be easy to dislodge.

    So, the SNP did a remarkable thing -- but it is also extraordinary that Labour did not see what was happening and react.

    Anyhow, Scotland is in much better shape than Wales -- where we have the most corrupt political party in Western Europe, Llafur, in control of almost everything.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Exactly. All sides have been guilty of this.
    Yep. And it needs to stop before we end up heading for civil war as America is.
    I cannot see how. It is now so ingrained in our politics and political discourse. I came here having been on a couple of Facebook politics groups. The level of venom is horrendous there. On all sides.

    What does not help is whatever side sees purity in their views and abuse is acceptable.

    It’s really a very gloomy scenario.
    Ban Facebook or at least it's algorithms that reinforce people's viewpoints while hiding opposing views.
    Twitter is awful. If someone shares a Tweet here then when you click on it, it follows it up underneath loads of Tweets from same-minded echo chamber people.

    If you get a Tweet from someone FBPE, then the entirety of Twitter it shows is FBPE.
    If you get a Tweet from someone MAGA, then the entirety of Twitter it shows is MAGA.

    Opposing viewpoints are deliberately hidden, which is weird because that's what makes life (and sites like this) so interesting.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,519
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Exactly. All sides have been guilty of this.
    Yep. And it needs to stop before we end up heading for civil war as America is.
    I cannot see how. It is now so ingrained in our politics and political discourse. I came here having been on a couple of Facebook politics groups. The level of venom is horrendous there. On all sides.

    What does not help is whatever side sees purity in their views and abuse is acceptable.

    It’s really a very gloomy scenario.
    It is worth remembering how Johnson reacted when asked to moderate his language by MPs who were getting escalating levels of abuse:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49833804

    Populism relies on inflamming opinion against "enemies within" so this fish rots from its head.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    The reason Labour have been smashed by the SNP is not that they have attacked them insufficiently. Anyone who has seen the invective spouted by SLab members and activists at the SNP would find that ridiculous.

    The reason is much simpler. A very large percentage of former Labour voters were in favour of independence.

    If your party is implacably opposed to a policy that a large amount of your voters are in favour of you have only two options.

    1) bring your voters round to your point of view with well constructed arguments.
    2) call them Nazi's and watch as they abandon you and vote for party that favours their position instead.

    Labour went with option 2.

    It's that simple.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,389
    edited October 17

    isam said:

    Sound like David Ames’s murderer, Ali Harbi Ali, lived in Kentish Town/Tufnell Park - Sir Keir is his MP.

    Is it a bit unnecessary to describe him as being of Somalian descent, rather than mention it straight away? He was born in England.

    His father, whom he lived with, was formerly an advisor to the Somalian PM apparently

    https://twitter.com/avalon709/status/1449542446761848832?s=21

    It is the same as with any moral panic - if you can categorise the threat as the "other", you can deflect away from your own moral failings.

    Jo Cox was murdered by a far right lunatic, so its ok to be hard right and want to drown migrants and call judges the enemy, thats safe still. David Amess was murdered by a "Somali" man. So its ok to call the Tories scum, thats safe.

    Or, we do the hard bit and look into ourselves. People can have different policies and idea without being seen as some kind of enemy. And yes, mea culpa I can point at some immoral (IMHO) Tory policies and call them out. That doesn't mean I think the "smirking cow" Priti Patel is evil and needs to be murdered. I just fundamentally disagree with the people who have been gaslit to support such policies.
    David Amess was killed by a Jihadi. That does not mean we do not need to be more civil in our discourse but no matter how bad the spats on social media they do not lead to people murdering each other.

    The vast amount of terrorism and political murder in this country is caused by Jihadis following an extremist version of Islam or the Far Right (not the mainstream right). That was what produced the killers of Jo Cox and David Amess and that is what the police and intelligence services need to focus on identifying and countering, not twatter spats between Corbynites, Brexiteers, Scottish Nationalists and FBPE diehard Remainers
  • isamisam Posts: 38,446
    edited October 17

    isam said:

    Sound like David Ames’s murderer, Ali Harbi Ali, lived in Kentish Town/Tufnell Park - Sir Keir is his MP.

    Is it a bit unnecessary to describe him as being of Somalian descent, rather than mention it straight away? He was born in England.

    His father, whom he lived with, was formerly an advisor to the Somalian PM apparently

    https://twitter.com/avalon709/status/1449542446761848832?s=21

    I am not sure at all as to what you are trying to say here.

    Are you implicating Starmer and the Labour Party and/or are you demanding that the suspect should be referred to as an immigrant despite the country of birth?

    Whatever your point(s) they appear both irrelevant and tasteless.

    Boilerplate lefty knee jerk

    How would I be implicating Sir Keir or Labour by mentioning he happened to be a constituent of his?! What planet do you live on?

    And I’m saying it’s a bit unnecessary to call the murderer Somalian when he was born in England, so the opposite of what you want me to be saying so you can have a dig

    You really weren’t sure, but alas went on one

    0/2 try harder
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 725
    HYUFD said:

    The SNP's dominance in Scotland has to be understood on the basis that it has taken Scottish Labour's core vote.

    For example, Scottish Labour won most seats and votes in Scotland at every UK general election from 1964 until the SNP overtook them in 2015. At Holyrood too Scottish Labour won most seats and votes from the Scottish Parliament's creation in 1999 again until the SNP overtook them in 2007.

    So unless and until Scottish Labour regains the centre left vote in Scotland, the SNP will still lead. A Scottish Labour revival would probably require a No vote in any future indyref2 to settle the independence issue for a generation. However obviously the Tories are not going to allow that any time soon given they can use the threat of a PM Starmer propped up by the SNP in a hung parliament to get their vote out in England

    The Indyref campaign made many Scots think seriously about politics, some, possibly, for the first time. The Brexit campaign made many more people throughout the UK think seriously about politics. In each case, former habitual Labour voters looked at what the Labour party had done for them, and concluded that they had been taken for a ride. In both cases, they switched their vote to the main opposition. They are unlikely to switch back to Labour anytime soon.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,610
    edited October 17
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    moonshine said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Puttnam announces retirement from House of Lords: FULL SPEECH

    "the unprincipled and destructive outbursts of the recently ennobled Lord Frost in Lisbon on Tuesday evening, who seems to exist in a world entirely of his own imagining."


    https://www.davidputtnam.com/viewNews/id/614/ via @DPuttnam

    David Puttnam, a luvvie who lives in Ireland, doesn’t like Brexit. Shocker!
    I grant you that isn't a surprise, but wouldn't it be better to convince remainers by post Brexit actions and events that they were wrong. I am a remainer but I want Brexit to work. I want to be wrong because I'm not into self harm and having been wrong before on stuff I'm hoping I am on this.
    The problem is that there’s a large group of remainers, active in politics and media, who clearly don’t want Brexit to work, and will loudly cheerlead for the EU side in every debate or negotiation.
    Like my ex car share, who wants anyone who voted to leave to suffer.
    That’s quite sad, but a symptom of a much wider issue of polarisation in politics, especially in the age of social media.

    As we should be learning from the tragic events of a couple of days ago, we need to under that disagreement needs to be polite and respectful, that opponents are misguided rather than ‘scum’, that words are not violence, but actual violence is unacceptable in a democracy.
    “Enemies of the people”
    Exactly. All sides have been guilty of this.
    Yep. And it needs to stop before we end up heading for civil war as America is.
    I cannot see how. It is now so ingrained in our politics and political discourse. I came here having been on a couple of Facebook politics groups. The level of venom is horrendous there. On all sides.

    What does not help is whatever side sees purity in their views and abuse is acceptable.

    It’s really a very gloomy scenario.
    Ban Facebook or at least it's algorithms that reinforce people's viewpoints while hiding opposing views.
    As far as I can tell the data doesn't seem to show that's what's happening.

    A couple of summaries:
    https://reutersinstitute.politics.ox.ac.uk/risj-review/truth-behind-filter-bubbles-bursting-some-myths
    https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/is_social_media_driving_political_polarization

    One of the interesting effects these pieces talk which people here might recognize is that people seem to get radicalized not so much by exposure to your own side of the argument but by more exposure to the stupid bastards on the other side...

    Also I think you need to separate the filter bubble thing from the *emotion* thing; A big problem with the algorithms is that they optimized for *engagement*, and you get engagement by getting people riled up. (Obviously this is something tabloid journalists already knew...)
  • DavidL said:

    Nicola's real skill has been to move the SNP from a broadly neutral/centrist position under Salmond to being a party of the centre left. This is what has allowed the SNP to take over from Scottish Labour and basically eliminate them as a major political force in Scotland. As @Carnyx points out when Labour was the centre left party of Scottish politics they dominated for over 50 years.

    What I find truly astonishing is how acquiescent Labour were in that elimination.

    That is the really astonishing thing.

    A party that has the kind of overwhelming control that Labour had in Scotland prior to 2007 (& still has in Wales today) possesses enormous amounts of power and patronage at its disposal. It really should not be easy to dislodge.

    So, the SNP did a remarkable thing -- but it is also extraordinary that Labour did not see what was happening and react.

    Anyhow, Scotland is in much better shape than Wales -- where we have the most corrupt political party in Western Europe, Llafur, in control of almost everything.
    Back when I was heavily involved with Teesside Labour there was already disquiet about the lack of contact rates north of the wall vs the kind of thing we were doing. Figures would go to region, they'd get compared to other regions and scored. Scottish contact rates were largely appalling.

    So as I understand it, Labour in large parts of Scotland assumed that as everyone voted Labour and always would, that they didn't need to bother speaking to voters and asking their opinions. So when the mood turned sharply away from the union they didn't spot it because they didn't ask.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,207
    Alistair said:

    The reason Labour have been smashed by the SNP is not that they have attacked them insufficiently. Anyone who has seen the invective spouted by SLab members and activists at the SNP would find that ridiculous.

    The reason is much simpler. A very large percentage of former Labour voters were in favour of independence.

    If your party is implacably opposed to a policy that a large amount of your voters are in favour of you have only two options.

    1) bring your voters round to your point of view with well constructed arguments.
    2) call them Nazi's and watch as they abandon you and vote for party that favours their position instead.

    Labour went with option 2.

    It's that simple.

    Independence from the UK, or Independence from the European Union (aka Brexit) - it was the same thing and dealt with by Labour the same way, with the same level of success both times.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,746

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    I fear it is now too late for Labour north of the border. They are too weak to take on the SNP in their former strongholds and their former supporters have really got out of the habit of voting for them.

    Glasgow is the prime example.

    The SNP took over the council for the first time in history, and by all accounts it's a disaster.

    But people still vote for them.
    Glasgow was almost Labour's last bastion in Scotland but it too has gone. They still have a reasonable number of councillors there but the trend is very much against them.

    The Conservatives have 7/85. There is no opposition despite the incompetence.
    GLASGOW is braced for severe disruption during the COP26 global climate summit after rail workers and refuge collectors both voted to go on strike.

    ScotRail workers will strike from November 1 to 12 amid a dispute over pay and conditions.

    Meanwhile, refuse workers have also threatened to strike during the conference unless council body Cosla offers them a better pay deal.

    COP26 will take place in Glasgow from October 31 to November 12 and will see tens of thousands of global leaders, activists, campaigners and protesters descend on the city


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19649555.cop26-glasgow-rail-bin-strikes-set-bring-severe-disruption-summit/

    Of course it will be the Toreees fault!
    Do we have comparative figures for how pay went for Council employees over the last decade in Scotland?
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,459
    This was discussed here recently. I’m amazed this happened especially so close to the end of the war.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58943245
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,389
    edited October 17
    Alistair said:

    The reason Labour have been smashed by the SNP is not that they have attacked them insufficiently. Anyone who has seen the invective spouted by SLab members and activists at the SNP would find that ridiculous.

    The reason is much simpler. A very large percentage of former Labour voters were in favour of independence.

    If your party is implacably opposed to a policy that a large amount of your voters are in favour of you have only two options.

    1) bring your voters round to your point of view with well constructed arguments.
    2) call them Nazi's and watch as they abandon you and vote for party that favours their position instead.

    Labour went with option 2.

    It's that simple.

    Rubbish, Labour did not call its supporters Nazis, the aggression was mainly from the Nationalist side in and after 2014.

    45% of Scots will always vote SNP now as they are diehard Nationalists until they get indyref2. What seats SLab does still hold in Scotland mainly came through Unionist tactical votes.

    It should forget about regaining votes lost to the SNP. It does not need them anyway to get back in power, the SNP will make Starmer PM in a hung parliament anyway.

    If there is an indyref2 a generation after 2014 and No wins then Scottish Nationalism will start to drain away and SLab may be able to regain lost support. If there is an indyref2 and Yes wins then Scotland will become a foreign country and of no concern of rUK Labour who will have to become Blairite again to have any hope of winning power again in England and Wales
This discussion has been closed.