I am not sure at all as to what you are trying to say here.
Are you implicating Starmer and the Labour Party and/or are you demanding that the suspect should be referred to as an immigrant despite the country of birth?
Whatever your point(s) they appear both irrelevant and tasteless.
Boilerplate lefty knee jerk
How would I be implicating Sir Keir or Labour by mentioning he happened to be a constituent of his?! What planet do you live on?
And I’m saying it’s a bit unnecessary to call the murderer Somalian when he was born in England, so the opposite of what you want me to be saying so you can have a dig
You really weren’t sure, but alas went on one
0/2 try harder
You and I don't agree on a lot. But you are correct here. This man was not a Somali jihadi as a certain other poster insists. He was British. And if he was a constituent of SKS then that doesn't make his MP in any way complicit.
Initial reports I saw said he was Somali. However he’s English, born and bred. I would guess initial reports knew who,he was, who,his father was and put two and two together and got 5.
His father was a Somali immigrant, his son was a 25 year old who obviously was radicalised by going back to Somalia as even his own father warned was a major problem in some parts of the Somali community that had settled in Britain.
We therefore still need tighter border controls to check who is coming in and out of the country and their reasons for doing so
We don't know whether the arrested individual has ever set foot in Somalia.
As posted earlier, the words of the father of the suspect show quite clearly this is a big problem in the Somali community
'CUFFE: The Intelligence Service, of course, won’t reveal the source of their information about young British Somalis recruited to al-Shabaab. But rumours about youngsters being brainwashed and radicalised are causing growing concern among British Somalis – particularly the older generation, who fled chaos in Somalia and just want to see the return of stability and peace. Harbi Kullane tries to liaise between the community here and Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government, which has international backing, but is seen by many Somalis as a puppet of the west. He is critical of British Somalis for their reluctance to speak openly about al-Shabaab.
KULLANE: If you’re walking in the street of Camden, if you walk in the streets of Southall or if you go to Leicester or even Birmingham you hear that young children who were here studying the religion have disappeared and gone back to Somalia. CUFFE: So have you met parents here in Britain who say that their young people have disappeared? KULLANE: At the moment the difficulty that we’re having with our society and diaspora is no parents are willing to come forward and say they are missing my child. CUFFE: If parents are keeping so quiet about that, aren’t they contributing to the problem? KULLANE: Directly or indirectly, they’re contributing it, but if they come forward and they say, “Our son has been there,” they fear some sort of a repercussion from the law, often from the country that they are being hosted.'
Just go away BigG to Labour, in fact never mind Labour go even further left because you are becoming even more leftwing than Starmer now.
You have no place in the Tory Party and we do not want your vote if all you do is support the liberal left
Post after post after post broadcasting the exact intolerance that is getting MPs murdered.
That you are the elected Chair of your local Conservative Association is an appalling indictment of the party.
Crap.
The vast majority of Tories agree with me, as does much of the country hence we have a Conservative government with an overall majority still leading in the polls.
If you throw your toys out the pram and shout 'racist' at merely discussing better enforcement of security to tackle jihadi extremism all to the good, it will keep you and your fellow left liberals further away from power than ever!
Please show me a poll showing that most of the country, or even most Tories, believe that people shouldn't be free to travel abroad.
Better enforcement of security is a good idea, and the intelligence services are good at what they do. That's not what you're talking about though.
There is a difference in travelling to Spain and Florida on holiday and travelling to Somalia to be radicalised.
The latter must be banned
You're also banning aid workers delivering the UK's aid programme, people travelling home for funerals of close family members etc. And most "Jihadis" are radicalised online in the comfort of their own home. It would just be a dumb thing to do. By all means treat travel to countries like that as a red flag for security services monitoring of course - but I'm sure they're doing that anyway.
Something that showed up during covid was how little we know about where people travel once they have left the UK. We rely on honest self reporting to know that.
So HYUFDs "ban" would be trivial to get round by flying to France or Spain on "holiday" and then onto whatever destination they like afterwards. The UK would end up knowing less about where they actually went than we do now.
The real problem is that the intelligence services and all the other agencies involved in the Prevent programmes simply do not have the resources they need to monitor effectively, let alone deradicalise, all those they know about.
Unless @HYUFD's Tory government is willing to put their money where their mouth is then this is all talk and little will be achieved. Effective counter-terrorism and deradicalisation take time and resources.
Whisper it quietly: there isn’t much evidence that deradicalisation works.
From what I can tell, the best solution to angry young men/women is to tie them down with a job, a mortgage, a relationship and young children and they tend to move on and cease to be a threat.
Doesn’t always work, but better than what the bullshit deradicalisation industry can achieve.
Prevention is better than a cure - but we didn't want to listen to anyone who said we should prevent mass immigration, so we are where we are
I don't have a problem with mass immigration. I have a real problem with multiculturalism and in particular the encouragement of the idea that it is ok to recreate the societies of the poorer parts of Pakistan or Somalia here. If people want to come and be British and we need additional people at the time, fine. But we need to make sure that those people are encouraged to become committed to British values, including sexual equality, gender equality and respect, freedom of speech and mutual tolerance. If they are not so willing we don't really want them here. What we do about those already here and indeed were born here like this particular murderer is tricky but it is a consequence of not putting in the effort to integrate in the first place.
Completely agree - but mass immigration of the type you mention has happened; a kind of academic experiment, doomed to failure in which we all are participating. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could have forseen it could never work, and time and time again we have been shown it doesn't work. But it has got to the stage where politicians have bought into the project so much that it can never be reversed.
As with Lee Rigby, 7/7, Ariana Grande concert, the death of Sir David looks like it can only be described as an act of civil war
How do we unwind this mess? I would suggest banning deobandism and similar groups in this country would be a good start. Their control of Mosques and fundamentalism is completely inconsistent with what I have described as British values. We need to use schools and Universities to free girls and women from bondage and absurd patriarchy. We need to stop foreign funding for mosques and madrassas, particularly from Saudi Arabia, coming into this country. We need to make it clear that this is the United Kingdom and we live differently here. Personally, I would also ban the Burqa for the same reasons.
I don't think it is possible to be unwound, it has happened already and we just have to deal with it. And the war between left wing enablers of it and right wingers who are concerned is just as bad
Look at the example of the new Islamic Shopping Hall in Romford, taking the place of the largest department store in town. It has been bought for £12m by two Muslim Shopkeepers from East London whose current businesses are worth about ten grand. The address on Companies House is a crappy little flat in Bow. In their promotional video they mention the third floor of the shop is going to be a Mosque. As someone born in Romford, and lived in Havering the majority of my life this more than raised an eyebrow.
I mention it on here and at first was told it wasn't going to be a Mosque, then that it was a fantastic example of free enterprise! I will get called names, but I see it as a Trojan Horse
I thought we had largely debunked that one, in that it was not a big Mosque.
An early telltale for those who were watching was back in the 70s and 80s when the number of Imams funded and appointed by foreign bodies - particularly from Saudi.
I was aware of the trend (but tbf had not realised the import) because in the late 80s I had taken an interest in understanding Islam whilst at Uni, and attended seminars run by the Diocese of Bradford (Dr Philip Lewis, who iirc had just done or was doing his PhD), plus the trend got some attention in research around Christian Missiology. *
In secular Turkey iirc (open to correction) they used to keep a lid on it by Imams effectively being controlled by the state; now it seems to be used the other way to control liberal Imams.
It wasn't debunked at all, people just pretended there wasn't a Mosque there. How many regular shopping centres have this kind of role available?
"Essential Responsibilities:
Lead the five daily prayers at the Aklu Plaza. Give the Khutbah and lead prayer for Jumuah. Deliver khutbah relevant to issues affecting Muslims especially the youths lessons learnt and how to benefit at the time and delivered in English Lead the Tarawih Prayer in Ramadan (TBC) Lead Eid Prayers and deliver Khutbah (TBC) Conduct matrimonial services in accordance with UK and Islamic law and offer pre-marital and marital counselling and conflict resolution. Offer Islamic family and youth counselling and guidance as needed. Provide Quran and Hadith studies, Seerah and Fiqh lessons, and other Islamic topics to increase knowledge and provide for spiritual growth of community members Participate in the community activities that further good interfaith and public relations for Islam and Muslims. Develop and implement educational program for new Muslims. Develop and implement educational and extracurricular programs for the youth. Work with management committee on fundraising programs for the community as needed. Provide consultation to the Committee on religious matters, community issues, and Mosque activities as requested Visit community events, schools and other institutes representing Mosque on a regular basis."
It's not "Tories" using bent statistics, it's iSage who say "look at how Europe has mask mandates and better outcomes than "England" "- then quote UK numbers which include Scotland and Wales, and which have similar mask mandates to those proposed by iSage, yet worse outcomes than England.....
As I said fake numbers, Scotland has been behind England all through the pandemic overall, even if still crap. Picking the odd day or week as usual to try and deflect.
Which government are you referring to? I note that Covid-19 mortality rate in Scotland is more than twice that in England.
As I said you select one or two weeks out of 2 years. Typical Tory. lying by statistics Show me the death rate from Covid for both countries over the pandemic , not the one week that suits. @CarlottaVance
I am not sure at all as to what you are trying to say here.
Are you implicating Starmer and the Labour Party and/or are you demanding that the suspect should be referred to as an immigrant despite the country of birth?
Whatever your point(s) they appear both irrelevant and tasteless.
Boilerplate lefty knee jerk
How would I be implicating Sir Keir or Labour by mentioning he happened to be a constituent of his?! What planet do you live on?
And I’m saying it’s a bit unnecessary to call the murderer Somalian when he was born in England, so the opposite of what you want me to be saying so you can have a dig
You really weren’t sure, but alas went on one
0/2 try harder
You and I don't agree on a lot. But you are correct here. This man was not a Somali jihadi as a certain other poster insists. He was British. And if he was a constituent of SKS then that doesn't make his MP in any way complicit.
Initial reports I saw said he was Somali. However he’s English, born and bred. I would guess initial reports knew who,he was, who,his father was and put two and two together and got 5.
His father was a Somali immigrant, his son was a 25 year old who obviously was radicalised by going back to Somalia as even his own father warned was a major problem in some parts of the Somali community that had settled in Britain.
We therefore still need tighter border controls to check who is coming in and out of the country and their reasons for doing so
We don't know whether the arrested individual has ever set foot in Somalia.
As posted earlier, the words of the father of the suspect show quite clearly this is a big problem in the Somali community
'CUFFE: The Intelligence Service, of course, won’t reveal the source of their information about young British Somalis recruited to al-Shabaab. But rumours about youngsters being brainwashed and radicalised are causing growing concern among British Somalis – particularly the older generation, who fled chaos in Somalia and just want to see the return of stability and peace. Harbi Kullane tries to liaise between the community here and Somalia’s Transitional Federal Government, which has international backing, but is seen by many Somalis as a puppet of the west. He is critical of British Somalis for their reluctance to speak openly about al-Shabaab.
KULLANE: If you’re walking in the street of Camden, if you walk in the streets of Southall or if you go to Leicester or even Birmingham you hear that young children who were here studying the religion have disappeared and gone back to Somalia. CUFFE: So have you met parents here in Britain who say that their young people have disappeared? KULLANE: At the moment the difficulty that we’re having with our society and diaspora is no parents are willing to come forward and say they are missing my child. CUFFE: If parents are keeping so quiet about that, aren’t they contributing to the problem? KULLANE: Directly or indirectly, they’re contributing it, but if they come forward and they say, “Our son has been there,” they fear some sort of a repercussion from the law, often from the country that they are being hosted.'
Just go away BigG to Labour, in fact never mind Labour go even further left because you are becoming even more leftwing than Starmer now.
You have no place in the Tory Party and we do not want your vote if all you do is support the liberal left
Post after post after post broadcasting the exact intolerance that is getting MPs murdered.
That you are the elected Chair of your local Conservative Association is an appalling indictment of the party.
Crap.
The vast majority of Tories agree with me, as does much of the country hence we have a Conservative government with an overall majority still leading in the polls.
If you throw your toys out the pram and shout 'racist' at merely discussing better enforcement of security to tackle jihadi extremism all to the good, it will keep you and your fellow left liberals further away from power than ever!
Please show me a poll showing that most of the country, or even most Tories, believe that people shouldn't be free to travel abroad.
Better enforcement of security is a good idea, and the intelligence services are good at what they do. That's not what you're talking about though.
There is a difference in travelling to Spain and Florida on holiday and travelling to Somalia to be radicalised.
The latter must be banned
You're also banning aid workers delivering the UK's aid programme, people travelling home for funerals of close family members etc. And most "Jihadis" are radicalised online in the comfort of their own home. It would just be a dumb thing to do. By all means treat travel to countries like that as a red flag for security services monitoring of course - but I'm sure they're doing that anyway.
Something that showed up during covid was how little we know about where people travel once they have left the UK. We rely on honest self reporting to know that.
So HYUFDs "ban" would be trivial to get round by flying to France or Spain on "holiday" and then onto whatever destination they like afterwards. The UK would end up knowing less about where they actually went than we do now.
The real problem is that the intelligence services and all the other agencies involved in the Prevent programmes simply do not have the resources they need to monitor effectively, let alone deradicalise, all those they know about.
Unless @HYUFD's Tory government is willing to put their money where their mouth is then this is all talk and little will be achieved. Effective counter-terrorism and deradicalisation take time and resources.
Whisper it quietly: there isn’t much evidence that deradicalisation works.
From what I can tell, the best solution to angry young men/women is to tie them down with a job, a mortgage, a relationship and young children and they tend to move on and cease to be a threat.
Doesn’t always work, but better than what the bullshit deradicalisation industry can achieve.
Prevention is better than a cure - but we didn't want to listen to anyone who said we should prevent mass immigration, so we are where we are
I don't have a problem with mass immigration. I have a real problem with multiculturalism and in particular the encouragement of the idea that it is ok to recreate the societies of the poorer parts of Pakistan or Somalia here. If people want to come and be British and we need additional people at the time, fine. But we need to make sure that those people are encouraged to become committed to British values, including sexual equality, gender equality and respect, freedom of speech and mutual tolerance. If they are not so willing we don't really want them here. What we do about those already here and indeed were born here like this particular murderer is tricky but it is a consequence of not putting in the effort to integrate in the first place.
Completely agree - but mass immigration of the type you mention has happened; a kind of academic experiment, doomed to failure in which we all are participating. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could have forseen it could never work, and time and time again we have been shown it doesn't work. But it has got to the stage where politicians have bought into the project so much that it can never be reversed.
As with Lee Rigby, 7/7, Ariana Grande concert, the death of Sir David looks like it can only be described as an act of civil war
The biggest thing we could do is ban religious schools of whatever faith. Traditionalists won't like it nor will those who say religious schools get better results, but get kids growing up together and they will blend together far more than seeing the divisions they do now in separated schools.
I very much agree. My 'all simply go to their good local state school' dream would have this as an (imo) not inconsiderable benefit, even forgetting about its main 'equal opportunities' aspect.
Posted to support your point rather to kick off another private schools dust up. Too soon for that. Have the next one penciled in for early December.
It's not "Tories" using bent statistics, it's iSage who say "look at how Europe has mask mandates and better outcomes than "England" "- then quote UK numbers which include Scotland and Wales, and which have similar mask mandates to those proposed by iSage, yet worse outcomes than England.....
As I said fake numbers, Scotland has been behind England all through the pandemic overall, even if still crap. Picking the odd day or week as usual to try and deflect.
Which government are you referring to? I note that Covid-19 mortality rate in Scotland is more than twice that in England.
As I said you select one or two weeks out of 2 years. Typical Tory. lying by statistics Show me the death rate from Covid for both countries over the pandemic , not the one week that suits. @CarlottaVance
Comments