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BoJo would find it more challenging facing Angela Rayner – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: They might not have wanted this to be made public but it’s the kind of announcement that leads to panic buying 👇
    BP prepares to ration fuel deliveries @ITVJoel learns - as some petrol stations close over supply problems

    https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-23/hgv-driver-shortage-bp-poised-to-ration-fuel-deliveries-amid-supply-problems?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

    So what does ITV do, splash it across the news with “Panic Buying” in the headline. That’ll help the situation.
    Didn't one of our number report panic fuel buying in Kent this morning?
  • Mr. Sandpit, reminiscent of the news gagging for panic buying at the shops.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,304
    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,466

    Pulpstar said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    I'll be honest, the thought that Labour might make this sort of stuff go quicker may well be there at the back of my mind come the next GE when I head to the ballot box. I'm minded to vote for Stormer right now but I'll actually read the manifestoes this time round... , last time was just an automatic vote for the Tories as I didn't fancy Corbyn being in charge.
    The plan is not to tax them out of existence - just to stop selling new ICE. So the old ICE market will continue for a while.

    On battery life, the current, validated by real world, numbers are a 10% drop in capacity after about 160,000 miles. So a 300,000 mile car will have 80% of it's battery capacity left.

    If moderately decently built an electric car should last longer than an ICE - less mechanical stuff to go wrong.
    But more electrical stuff to go wrong and after X years I suspect replacement electrical parts may have completely disappeared. We had to replace our cooker last year because a control board had gone and they didn't have anymore.
  • kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    Your honest opinion of Dante's Purgatorio will be most welcome.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,517

    Reminder: “A change in the spike protein- which allows the coronavirus to enter and infect human cells- that is radical enough to make our vaccine completely ineffective would also, almost certainly, be so extreme as to make the virus non-functional.” -Sarah Gilbert, Oxford Team

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1441036156980932609?s=20

    I'd also note the absence since delta of any significant concern about new variants. Doesn't mean that it won't happen, but I suspect delta has done us a favour by being very infectious, and not much more harmful. If you deviate too far, you are not the same disease.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,443

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: They might not have wanted this to be made public but it’s the kind of announcement that leads to panic buying 👇
    BP prepares to ration fuel deliveries @ITVJoel learns - as some petrol stations close over supply problems

    https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-23/hgv-driver-shortage-bp-poised-to-ration-fuel-deliveries-amid-supply-problems?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

    So what does ITV do, splash it across the news with “Panic Buying” in the headline. That’ll help the situation.
    Didn't one of our number report panic fuel buying in Kent this morning?
    Yes. This morning the dentist was chattering away about the energy crisis and the assistant then said “but what’s that got to with petrol?”. I just brushed it off as crossed wires.

    I then drove over the road with the petrol light on red to find every pump out of action at Bp. Drove to the next town and there was a queue out on the road. Some silly fool filling his car and then a canister.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,113

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    A couple of differentiations that you might not have expected from Labour, compared with the Conservatives:

    - Be more supportive of business.
    - Be less wasteful of taxes
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,586

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    I had to go and buy tonight's dinner, then got caught up in other stuff when I got back. I've bookmarked it though. It's a PDF.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,466
    edited September 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    A G-wizz. 30 seconds on Autotrader tells me a 10 year old Nissan Leaf will cost £4500 and I suspect the range of that is now 20 yards.

    £10k will get you a decent 5 year old Leaf or similar - I suspect everything below that will have serious issues.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,146

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,713
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    Fishing said:

    tlg86 said:

    Referring to a woman as "feisty" is generally considered sexist.

    But referring to a man like that isn't? Sounds rather sexist to me.
    I don't have figures on it, but I'd not be surprised if men are rarely referred to as feisty, hence why it might be considered sexist. See also 'hysterical'.
    If she fit the definition of fesity, call her feisty. If she doesn't, don't. Same with a man. Gender doesn't come into it.

    Same with hysterical (though my beef with that word is how many illiterates confuse it with "hilarious").
    Name a feisty male MP.
    John Redwood.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,948
    Andy_JS said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    Fishing said:

    tlg86 said:

    Referring to a woman as "feisty" is generally considered sexist.

    But referring to a man like that isn't? Sounds rather sexist to me.
    I don't have figures on it, but I'd not be surprised if men are rarely referred to as feisty, hence why it might be considered sexist. See also 'hysterical'.
    If she fit the definition of fesity, call her feisty. If she doesn't, don't. Same with a man. Gender doesn't come into it.

    Same with hysterical (though my beef with that word is how many illiterates confuse it with "hilarious").
    Name a feisty male MP.
    John Redwood.
    Michael Fabricant.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 14,713
    edited September 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    Aslan said:

    Unfortunately for Rayner I think a Northern woman with a tendency to being aggressive in PMQs would play into a classist-sexist stereotype that would go down badly with the public.

    Strictly speaking, all of that applied to Margaret Thatcher as well.

    The only difference was she lost the accent.
    Grantham is in the East Midlands.
    North from my point of view - clearly above Birmingham and the Severn-Wash line!
    Disagree with that definition. Lots of places in the Midlands are in those categories, including where I live.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,146
    moonshine said:

    FPT:

    Mr. Moonshine, yeah, I've heard that concern raised.

    Lots of reboots, remakes, and sequels seem subject to that. And overt politicisation/inability (or lack of care) to understand and respect existing canon. We'll see how things go.

    Depends what they’d going after I suppose. I went into the theatre for Fellowship of the Ring not knowing what a hobbit or an orc was. And came out convinced it would be the greatest cinematic experience of my lifetime. I still think that. Why am I wasting time watching [X] when I could be rewatching FOTR?

    But that didn’t derive just from the groundbreaking effects, it was the whole package. The astounding world building of the source material, a tight screenplay, the sweeping vistas, the stirring score and the Shakespearean cast. Let’s hope Bezos hasn’t norzed it up.
    +1.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,466
    moonshine said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: They might not have wanted this to be made public but it’s the kind of announcement that leads to panic buying 👇
    BP prepares to ration fuel deliveries @ITVJoel learns - as some petrol stations close over supply problems

    https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-23/hgv-driver-shortage-bp-poised-to-ration-fuel-deliveries-amid-supply-problems?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

    So what does ITV do, splash it across the news with “Panic Buying” in the headline. That’ll help the situation.
    Didn't one of our number report panic fuel buying in Kent this morning?
    Yes. This morning the dentist was chattering away about the energy crisis and the assistant then said “but what’s that got to with petrol?”. I just brushed it off as crossed wires.

    I then drove over the road with the petrol light on red to find every pump out of action at Bp. Drove to the next town and there was a queue out on the road. Some silly fool filling his car and then a canister.
    That's a haulage issue - a lot of fuel drivers have left for better paid less risky haulage jobs.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,975
    edited September 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost? Not sure there even is an EV estate that seats five, the closest that’s not brand new would be a Tesla X.

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,231
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    I'll be honest, the thought that Labour might make this sort of stuff go quicker may well be there at the back of my mind come the next GE when I head to the ballot box. I'm minded to vote for Stormer right now but I'll actually read the manifestoes this time round... , last time was just an automatic vote for the Tories as I didn't fancy Corbyn being in charge.
    The plan is not to tax them out of existence - just to stop selling new ICE. So the old ICE market will continue for a while.

    On battery life, the current, validated by real world, numbers are a 10% drop in capacity after about 160,000 miles. So a 300,000 mile car will have 80% of it's battery capacity left.

    If moderately decently built an electric car should last longer than an ICE - less mechanical stuff to go wrong.
    But more electrical stuff to go wrong and after X years I suspect replacement electrical parts may have completely disappeared. We had to replace our cooker last year because a control board had gone and they didn't have anymore.
    It depends. Existing ICE vehicles are full of badly setup computers that fight each other. A friend went to work in the R&D side of one major outfit. He removed a bunch of errors in the code. Then discovered that the errors were generating signals on the cars network that actually allowed other, badly coded, systems to work. Fixing the bugs actually broke stuff. He said the whole software stack appeared to have been generated by a gang of marsupials trying to type Shakespeare plays.....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,225
    Re Labour leader. This passed a little under the radar a few days ago.

    https://news.sky.com/story/labours-dan-jarvis-announces-he-wont-seek-re-election-as-south-yorkshire-mayor-12412961

    He never was in the running before, because of having small kids who had lost their mother.
    Interesting back story, too.
  • kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Hasn't he just been diagnosed with kidney cancer?
    Besides which, another London MP and they may as well give up.
    Caught very early, I gather, so hopefully he'll be ok. Or as ok as you can be post cancer.
    Kidney cancer, caught early, can involve simply the removal of the offending kidney, with no radiation or chemo required. Hopefully this is the case for Wes Streeting.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 965
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    A G-wizz. 30 seconds on Autotrader tells me a 10 year old Nissan Leaf will cost £4500 and I suspect the range of that is now 20 yards.

    £10k will get you a decent 5 year old Leaf or similar - I suspect everything below that will have serious issues.
    More realistically I got a 2 year old Renault Zoe for £12k recently. Most car owning households I expect pay £12k+ for their cars, even if they then hold them for a few years. Not that many people actually buy old bangers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,948
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    You're saying he didn't use the Brexit/childbirth analogy.
  • Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Aslan said:

    Unfortunately for Rayner I think a Northern woman with a tendency to being aggressive in PMQs would play into a classist-sexist stereotype that would go down badly with the public.

    Strictly speaking, all of that applied to Margaret Thatcher as well.

    The only difference was she lost the accent.
    Grantham is in the East Midlands.
    North from my point of view - clearly above Birmingham and the Severn-Wash line!
    Lincolnshire is the only county which in part feels northern, midland and southern.

    Scunthorpe and Grimsby: clearly northern. The names, most of all. Uncompromisingly viking. And the accents. And the nearest big cities - Leeds and Sheffield. A Yorkshireman would quibble, of course, but they'd quibble with everything. And all northerners think the north starts 10 miles south of where they were born.
    Lincoln, Grantham and Skegness: clearly midland. In the outer orbit of Nottingham and Leicester. And again, the accents: midlands.
    Stamford: the south. In the far edges of London commuterland. And you could be in the Cotswolds if it wasn't so flat.

    Also, Holbeach: clearly East Anglia.
    Lincoln itself - the city - is very hard to define. It's quite far north but in places it feels distinctly southern; it's quite far east but doesn't really feel "East Anglian"

    The long walk up to the cathedral on a scented, drizzly dusk in midwinter is sublime, creepy and poetic
    Out of the corner of my eye, and conscious of the author, I read, “sublime, creepy and erotic.”

    Anyway didn’t Lincolnshire used to have “Parts”; I presume they mapped approximately to Cookie’s tripartition.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,558
    edited September 2021
    Surely if Starmer goes mid-parliament after failing to get the leadership election rules changed, the membership use the opportunity to go back to Comrade Corbyn or one of his acolytes?

    The sane wing of the PLP won't want to take the risk, so Starmer is there until the next election, which he'll lose, and then we'll see what happens.

    My tip is still Burnham takes over from Starmer and wins the 2028/2029 general election.
  • dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Hasn't he just been diagnosed with kidney cancer?
    Besides which, another London MP and they may as well give up.
    Interesting that according to Jones, Deborah Mattinson, new head of strategy for Sir K, opposes trying to get these changes through conference.
  • Pulpstar said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    I'll be honest, the thought that Labour might make this sort of stuff go quicker may well be there at the back of my mind come the next GE when I head to the ballot box. I'm minded to vote for Stormer right now but I'll actually read the manifestoes this time round... , last time was just an automatic vote for the Tories as I didn't fancy Corbyn being in charge.
    The plan is not to tax them out of existence - just to stop selling new ICE. So the old ICE market will continue for a while.

    On battery life, the current, validated by real world, numbers are a 10% drop in capacity after about 160,000 miles. So a 300,000 mile car will have 80% of it's battery capacity left.

    If moderately decently built an electric car should last longer than an ICE - less mechanical stuff to go wrong.
    I've heard that newer diesel engines don't last nearly as long as they used to. The fuel is burnt at a higher temperature to reduce the particulate emissions and this wears out the engine more quickly.

    Don't know what petrol engines are like, but I thought they weren't as long-lasting as diesels in general.

    So I could foresee a bit of a squeeze in the second-hand car market before the transition to electric is complete.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Cornish! Very distinct accent, much more sing-song and Celtic than ordinary Yokel or Mummerset

    Also Geordie. And Orcadian (musical, a bit like Cornish).

    There are surely others
  • TimSTimS Posts: 965
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Surely generic Geordie / Cheryl Cole / Billy Elliott should feature in that list as a distinct popular culture species.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,466
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    £45,000 is the cheapest i-pace (19 model) or £40k for a new Ioniq 5, 2017 Tesla X is £55,000 or so.

    I don't think many people have built large electric cars yet.

    A lot is going to depend on the life cycle of an electric car, if they can truely last 20 years, it's going to be 15 years until they are in bangnomics territory if they ever get that far.
  • Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Cornish! Very distinct accent, much more sing-song and Celtic than ordinary Yokel or Mummerset

    Also Geordie. And Orcadian (musical, a bit like Cornish).

    There are surely others
    North London Jewish is a personal favourite of mine.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,225
    GIN1138 said:

    Surely if Starmer goes mid-parliament after failing to get the leadership election rules changed, the membership use the opportunity to go back Comrade Corbyn or one of his acolytes?

    The sane wing of the PLP won't want to take the risk, so Starmer is there until the next election, which he'll lose, and then we'll see what happens.

    My tip is still Burnham takes over from Starmer and wins the 2028/2029 general election.

    The membership voted for Starmer. And a lot of the Corbynites upped and left as a result.
    The rest of your post I think is spot on.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 965

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: They might not have wanted this to be made public but it’s the kind of announcement that leads to panic buying 👇
    BP prepares to ration fuel deliveries @ITVJoel learns - as some petrol stations close over supply problems

    https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-23/hgv-driver-shortage-bp-poised-to-ration-fuel-deliveries-amid-supply-problems?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

    So what does ITV do, splash it across the news with “Panic Buying” in the headline. That’ll help the situation.
    Didn't one of our number report panic fuel buying in Kent this morning?
    I think we're about to head into a period of months where the economy and supply chains are going to dominate. It may at times feel quite frightening. Various bouts of panic buying, some government bailouts, and internationally a few dominoes falling in the Chinese real estate market with probably knock on effects on exposed financial investors.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,558
    Nigelb said:

    Fishing said:

    kle4 said:

    Fishing said:

    tlg86 said:

    Referring to a woman as "feisty" is generally considered sexist.

    But referring to a man like that isn't? Sounds rather sexist to me.
    I don't have figures on it, but I'd not be surprised if men are rarely referred to as feisty, hence why it might be considered sexist. See also 'hysterical'.
    If she fit the definition of fesity, call her feisty. If she doesn't, don't. Same with a man. Gender doesn't come into it.

    Same with hysterical (though my beef with that word is how many illiterates confuse it with "hilarious").
    Name a feisty male MP.

    Barry Sheerman

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpsh9APpxls
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    People were crying out for change, voted for it, and Sir Keir spent the best part of three years trying to prevent it
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,658
    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    Plus another £5000 for the new batteries you will need to drive it off the forecourt.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,149
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Re Labour leader. This passed a little under the radar a few days ago.

    https://news.sky.com/story/labours-dan-jarvis-announces-he-wont-seek-re-election-as-south-yorkshire-mayor-12412961

    He never was in the running before, because of having small kids who had lost their mother.
    Interesting back story, too.

    Interesting quote, given he's an MP, too:
    "I won't be standing as mayor again next May but in the meantime I will continue to give 110% to the role."
    If he's giving 110% to the mayoral role, would it be cruel to suggest that he's not putting in sufficient effort as an MP?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    You're saying he didn't use the Brexit/childbirth analogy.
    I'm saying he should have found a better title, for a start

    THE ROAD AHEAD

    Christ. That alone makes you want to hurl it across the room. So tedious, so earnest, so bloody predictable. THE ROAD AHEAD

    Why not go for something poetic, or weird, or striking, or authentically him?

    The trouble he is trying to be all things to all men and he ends up being nothing to no-one. And he is, I suspect, actually quite genuinely boring - albeit smart. Also, there is not a spark of humour. Does anyone have evidence of a sense of humour in Starmer? I search and my search yieldeth nought
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Cornish! Very distinct accent, much more sing-song and Celtic than ordinary Yokel or Mummerset

    Also Geordie. And Orcadian (musical, a bit like Cornish).

    There are surely others
    North London Jewish is a personal favourite of mine.
    Yes, good spot. It can be seriously thick, and almost incomprehensible
  • Just in terms of media coverage, Dan Jarvis has been pretty mediocre as Mayor of Greater Sheffield.

    Does anyone have closer insight?
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,265
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,225
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Surely generic Geordie / Cheryl Cole / Billy Elliott should feature in that list as a distinct popular culture species.
    Billy Elliott isn't a Geordie.
    Also Lancashire / Yorkshire are very distinct. Southerners can't always tell. But if you are from either they have some howling dissimilarities. Double o pronunciation for a start.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,466
    TimS said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    A G-wizz. 30 seconds on Autotrader tells me a 10 year old Nissan Leaf will cost £4500 and I suspect the range of that is now 20 yards.

    £10k will get you a decent 5 year old Leaf or similar - I suspect everything below that will have serious issues.
    More realistically I got a 2 year old Renault Zoe for £12k recently. Most car owning households I expect pay £12k+ for their cars, even if they then hold them for a few years. Not that many people actually buy old bangers.
    Sorry not true - I can think of 1 street about a mile from me with 6 garages all selling £2-5k cars.
  • TimS said:

    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    A G-wizz. 30 seconds on Autotrader tells me a 10 year old Nissan Leaf will cost £4500 and I suspect the range of that is now 20 yards.

    £10k will get you a decent 5 year old Leaf or similar - I suspect everything below that will have serious issues.
    More realistically I got a 2 year old Renault Zoe for £12k recently. Most car owning households I expect pay £12k+ for their cars, even if they then hold them for a few years. Not that many people actually buy old bangers.
    We pushed the boat out and paid £1350 for our current car. We sold the previous one - which really was an old banger - for £200.

    More people are buying cars on finance deals, and paying a monthly rental, but there's still a large part of the market spending less than £5k on their car. Wouldn't know what proportion though.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    Yep. The piece is far too long, dull, and banal. There's really nothing there of substance to disagree with - who doesn't want better public services, better jobs, reduced crime? - but it doesn't begin to address the question of how Labour would seek to improve things. Take out the (excessive) ritual Tory-bashing, and the whole 35-page piece really amounts to nothing more than an aspiration to Boris Johnson's rather more pithy 'levelling up', and it is equally vacuous.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,146
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Cornish! Very distinct accent, much more sing-song and Celtic than ordinary Yokel or Mummerset

    Also Geordie. And Orcadian (musical, a bit like Cornish).

    There are surely others
    Just boiling it down to the basics :)

    I dont think I had the pleasure of meeting an authentically cornish person when last in Cornwall, so it was hard to judge.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,113
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    You're saying he didn't use the Brexit/childbirth analogy.
    I'm saying he should have found a better title, for a start

    THE ROAD AHEAD

    Christ. That alone makes you want to hurl it across the room. So tedious, so earnest, so bloody predictable. THE ROAD AHEAD

    Why not go for something poetic, or weird, or striking, or authentically him?

    The trouble he is trying to be all things to all men and he ends up being nothing to no-one. And he is, I suspect, actually quite genuinely boring - albeit smart. Also, there is not a spark of humour. Does anyone have evidence of a sense of humour in Starmer? I search and my search yieldeth nought
    I thought the essay was authentically Starmer. He is genuinely boring, also competent, honest, responsible and conscientious, when his opponent is none of those things.

    Question is whether enough of the public will vote for those qualities in its leader. So far, no.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,149

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    Plus another £5000 for the new batteries you will need to drive it off the forecourt.
    Yep, cheapo second (or third etc) hand electric cars are not really viable at the moment.

    But if we have new ICEs potentially until 2030 or so, then cheapo second hand electric cars won't be needed until the late 2030s (as there will still be plenty of cheapo second hand ICEs).

    If ICEs disappear sooner, then it will be because the electric tech has come on more quickly and there will then be cheapo second hand electrics that are viable earlier than late 2030s too.

    And, the 2030 ban doesn't apply to hybrids, I think? So worst case, if there are still issues by then you buy, in late 2030s, a ropey old hybrid with a useless battery and drive it as an ICE (although given the batteries in hybrids are much smaller, probably no big cost to replace those anyway).

    TLDR: Electrics will only replace ICEs when they're a better all-round option, including in the second hand market (ohterwise people will baulk at the depreciation).
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    Has our Kin come through alive from his self imposed purgatory yet?

    What was his feedback? Is there a policy in there somewhere?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,113
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    I've tortured myself with this insipid drivel too, and you're spot on. The summary on the final page is entirely typical of the document as a whole: cliche after cliche.

    Like every lawyer, he writes in a way designed to make sure people can't attack what he writes, and as a result he doesn't say anything interesting at all.

    Blair got away with it for years, but he was a much better bullshitter than Starmer will ever be, and had press coverage that made North Korea's look hostile.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,975
    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

    There are certainly old (2013) Teslas being written off with battery issues, and a replacement is £20k or thereabouts. There’s also stories of them being used as taxis and running up 300,000 miles. Both of these can of course be true, and it may be that age is more of a factor than mileage in determining vehicle life.

    We’ll find out in the next few years!
  • I just filled my tank (as the light was on) and the petrol station was quiet and the fuel was cheaper than it was last time I filled up a couple of weeks ago. Still pricy but cheaper, £131.9

    No sign of panic buying.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,975
    edited September 2021
    Was it around this time in Blair’s leadership, that his “Big Idea” for Conference was scrapping Clause 4?

    What’s Starmer’s Clause 4?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,304
    edited September 2021

    Just in terms of media coverage, Dan Jarvis has been pretty mediocre as Mayor of Greater Sheffield.

    Does anyone have closer insight?

    I have no idea what he's done for Sheffield and it's orbit to be perfectly honest. Am here.
  • TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: They might not have wanted this to be made public but it’s the kind of announcement that leads to panic buying 👇
    BP prepares to ration fuel deliveries @ITVJoel learns - as some petrol stations close over supply problems

    https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-23/hgv-driver-shortage-bp-poised-to-ration-fuel-deliveries-amid-supply-problems?utm_source=NewsApp&utm_medium=SocialShare

    So what does ITV do, splash it across the news with “Panic Buying” in the headline. That’ll help the situation.
    Didn't one of our number report panic fuel buying in Kent this morning?
    I think we're about to head into a period of months where the economy and supply chains are going to dominate. It may at times feel quite frightening. Various bouts of panic buying, some government bailouts, and internationally a few dominoes falling in the Chinese real estate market with probably knock on effects on exposed financial investors.
    Chinese CPP can no longer argue that the 2008 US mortgage disaster was a capitalism thing and would never happen under their benevolent government.
  • Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

    There are certainly old (2013) Teslas being written off with battery issues, and a replacement is £20k or thereabouts. There’s also stories of them being used as taxis and running up 300,000 miles. Both of these can of course be true, and it may be that age is more of a factor than mileage in determining vehicle life.

    We’ll find out in the next few years!
    Since there's much fewer moving parts (I believe) it could possibly even be that it's better suited for more mileage than less.

    Ie if it's constantly moving like a taxi then it stays operational but if it's idle on the driveway days at a time then it's less so.

    Not saying it's the case but it's a possibility.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,466
    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

    There are certainly old (2013) Teslas being written off with battery issues, and a replacement is £20k or thereabouts. There’s also stories of them being used as taxis and running up 300,000 miles. Both of these can of course be true, and it may be that age is more of a factor than mileage in determining vehicle life.

    We’ll find out in the next few years!
    One thing with older Electric cars is that the knowledge on how to best manage the life of a battery has only recently been discovered. So a lot of older (pre 2018 say) EVs will not have the battery management software more moderns car have that keep the battery in best condition.

    The lack of battery management is a reason why I wouldn't recommend touching a Nissan Leaf (heck my cousin doesn't have one and he's a shift lead at the Sunderland Battery plant),
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,146
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    Yep. The piece is far too long, dull, and banal. There's really nothing there of substance to disagree with - who doesn't want better public services, better jobs, reduced crime? - but it doesn't begin to address the question of how Labour would seek to improve things. Take out the (excessive) ritual Tory-bashing, and the whole 35-page piece really amounts to nothing more than an aspiration to Boris Johnson's rather more pithy 'levelling up', and it is equally vacuous.
    Starmer has revealed himself and the revelation is a void
    The universe is about 80% void, so he's just going after the largest segment!
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    Yep. The piece is far too long, dull, and banal. There's really nothing there of substance to disagree with - who doesn't want better public services, better jobs, reduced crime? - but it doesn't begin to address the question of how Labour would seek to improve things. Take out the (excessive) ritual Tory-bashing, and the whole 35-page piece really amounts to nothing more than an aspiration to Boris Johnson's rather more pithy 'levelling up', and it is equally vacuous.
    Indeed. The essay in its length and emptiness has actually made things worse. You read it and you think: wait, is this all there is? Is this Starmer the man? Does he not have a single interesting new idea? It reminds me me Gertrude Stein's withering putdown of Oakland, her boring home-town - "there's no there, there"

    At least Boris is entertaining, etc etc. Also I can't see Starmer having the audacity to bring off a foreign policy coup like Aukus

    Starmer has revealed himself and the revelation is a void
    To be fair to Starmer, I do like the opening line of his essay: In the middle of the journey of our movements life we find ourselves within a dark wood where the left way is lost.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,819
    gealbhan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    Yep. The piece is far too long, dull, and banal. There's really nothing there of substance to disagree with - who doesn't want better public services, better jobs, reduced crime? - but it doesn't begin to address the question of how Labour would seek to improve things. Take out the (excessive) ritual Tory-bashing, and the whole 35-page piece really amounts to nothing more than an aspiration to Boris Johnson's rather more pithy 'levelling up', and it is equally vacuous.
    Indeed. The essay in its length and emptiness has actually made things worse. You read it and you think: wait, is this all there is? Is this Starmer the man? Does he not have a single interesting new idea? It reminds me me Gertrude Stein's withering putdown of Oakland, her boring home-town - "there's no there, there"

    At least Boris is entertaining, etc etc. Also I can't see Starmer having the audacity to bring off a foreign policy coup like Aukus

    Starmer has revealed himself and the revelation is a void
    To be fair to Starmer, I do like the opening line of his essay: In the middle of the journey of our movements life we find ourselves within a dark wood where the left way is lost.
    You don't recognise it though?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 5,099
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Cornish! Very distinct accent, much more sing-song and Celtic than ordinary Yokel or Mummerset

    Also Geordie. And Orcadian (musical, a bit like Cornish).

    There are surely others
    Just boiling it down to the basics :)

    I dont think I had the pleasure of meeting an authentically cornish person when last in Cornwall, so it was hard to judge.
    Time to trot this lovely little bit of genius out again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8mzWkuOxz8


  • gealbhan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    Yep. The piece is far too long, dull, and banal. There's really nothing there of substance to disagree with - who doesn't want better public services, better jobs, reduced crime? - but it doesn't begin to address the question of how Labour would seek to improve things. Take out the (excessive) ritual Tory-bashing, and the whole 35-page piece really amounts to nothing more than an aspiration to Boris Johnson's rather more pithy 'levelling up', and it is equally vacuous.
    Indeed. The essay in its length and emptiness has actually made things worse. You read it and you think: wait, is this all there is? Is this Starmer the man? Does he not have a single interesting new idea? It reminds me me Gertrude Stein's withering putdown of Oakland, her boring home-town - "there's no there, there"

    At least Boris is entertaining, etc etc. Also I can't see Starmer having the audacity to bring off a foreign policy coup like Aukus

    Starmer has revealed himself and the revelation is a void
    To be fair to Starmer, I do like the opening line of his essay: In the middle of the journey of our movements life we find ourselves within a dark wood where the left way is lost.
    Hmm. Reminds me of something though.
  • gealbhan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    Yep. The piece is far too long, dull, and banal. There's really nothing there of substance to disagree with - who doesn't want better public services, better jobs, reduced crime? - but it doesn't begin to address the question of how Labour would seek to improve things. Take out the (excessive) ritual Tory-bashing, and the whole 35-page piece really amounts to nothing more than an aspiration to Boris Johnson's rather more pithy 'levelling up', and it is equally vacuous.
    Indeed. The essay in its length and emptiness has actually made things worse. You read it and you think: wait, is this all there is? Is this Starmer the man? Does he not have a single interesting new idea? It reminds me me Gertrude Stein's withering putdown of Oakland, her boring home-town - "there's no there, there"

    At least Boris is entertaining, etc etc. Also I can't see Starmer having the audacity to bring off a foreign policy coup like Aukus

    Starmer has revealed himself and the revelation is a void
    To be fair to Starmer, I do like the opening line of his essay: In the middle of the journey of our movements life we find ourselves within a dark wood where the left way is lost.
    I thought the reference to Tony Blair as the 'master of those who know' was a bit grovelling.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,975

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

    There are certainly old (2013) Teslas being written off with battery issues, and a replacement is £20k or thereabouts. There’s also stories of them being used as taxis and running up 300,000 miles. Both of these can of course be true, and it may be that age is more of a factor than mileage in determining vehicle life.

    We’ll find out in the next few years!
    Since there's much fewer moving parts (I believe) it could possibly even be that it's better suited for more mileage than less.

    Ie if it's constantly moving like a taxi then it stays operational but if it's idle on the driveway days at a time then it's less so.

    Not saying it's the case but it's a possibility.
    The issue is with the battery itself, that degrades over time, as opposed to mileage like an engine.

    Lots of unknowns, it may be that the new generation of EVs are a lot better in six or seven years’ time, than six and seven year old EVs are today.

    In fact, it’s almost certainly the case, the question is that of degree.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    You're saying he didn't use the Brexit/childbirth analogy.
    I'm saying he should have found a better title, for a start

    THE ROAD AHEAD

    Christ. That alone makes you want to hurl it across the room. So tedious, so earnest, so bloody predictable. THE ROAD AHEAD

    Why not go for something poetic, or weird, or striking, or authentically him?

    The trouble he is trying to be all things to all men and he ends up being nothing to no-one. And he is, I suspect, actually quite genuinely boring - albeit smart. Also, there is not a spark of humour. Does anyone have evidence of a sense of humour in Starmer? I search and my search yieldeth nought
    I thought the essay was authentically Starmer. He is genuinely boring, also competent, honest, responsible and conscientious, when his opponent is none of those things.

    Question is whether enough of the public will vote for those qualities in its leader. So far, no.
    I think the question is, increasingly, surely Labour can do better than this?

    Boris is all the bad things you say, but he is also very clever, cunning and ruthless (as we see with Aukus). And charismatic. He will be hard to beat but a lot of nasty news is heading our way and a really good Labour leader could win

    Starmer, I fear, is not it

  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 1,837
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Aslan said:

    Unfortunately for Rayner I think a Northern woman with a tendency to being aggressive in PMQs would play into a classist-sexist stereotype that would go down badly with the public.

    Strictly speaking, all of that applied to Margaret Thatcher as well.

    The only difference was she lost the accent.
    Grantham is in the East Midlands.
    North from my point of view - clearly above Birmingham and the Severn-Wash line!
    Lincolnshire is the only county which in part feels northern, midland and southern.

    Scunthorpe and Grimsby: clearly northern. The names, most of all. Uncompromisingly viking. And the accents. And the nearest big cities - Leeds and Sheffield. A Yorkshireman would quibble, of course, but they'd quibble with everything. And all northerners think the north starts 10 miles south of where they were born.
    Lincoln, Grantham and Skegness: clearly midland. In the outer orbit of Nottingham and Leicester. And again, the accents: midlands.
    Stamford: the south. In the far edges of London commuterland. And you could be in the Cotswolds if it wasn't so flat.

    Also, Holbeach: clearly East Anglia.
    Lincoln itself - the city - is very hard to define. It's quite far north but in places it feels distinctly southern; it's quite far east but doesn't really feel "East Anglian"

    The long walk up to the cathedral on a scented, drizzly dusk in midwinter is sublime, creepy and poetic
    The River Witham below Lincoln Cathedral flows through a gap in the Lincolnshire Limestone created during the ice age.

    East of this gap was a huge glacial lake which eventually became the Fens, North West of the gap was another glacial lake which filled the Vale of York, and South West of the gap was the Trent, which drains most of what we now call the East Midlands.

    So if you go far enough back, Lincoln is literally the meeting point of North, East and Midlands.

    It is interesting how these divisions persist based on a long lost landscape.

  • Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

    There are certainly old (2013) Teslas being written off with battery issues, and a replacement is £20k or thereabouts. There’s also stories of them being used as taxis and running up 300,000 miles. Both of these can of course be true, and it may be that age is more of a factor than mileage in determining vehicle life.

    We’ll find out in the next few years!
    Since there's much fewer moving parts (I believe) it could possibly even be that it's better suited for more mileage than less.

    Ie if it's constantly moving like a taxi then it stays operational but if it's idle on the driveway days at a time then it's less so.

    Not saying it's the case but it's a possibility.
    With batteries, I can see the way it's being driven and charged mattering more than actual kwh usage. For instance, continuously gunning it down the road might harm the batteries more than the same energy used more gently. Ditto charging: fast charging may be worse (or potentially better) than trickle charging.

    The recent stories about the cost of replacing Tesla batteries are frankly scary.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 5,099

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Aslan said:

    Unfortunately for Rayner I think a Northern woman with a tendency to being aggressive in PMQs would play into a classist-sexist stereotype that would go down badly with the public.

    Strictly speaking, all of that applied to Margaret Thatcher as well.

    The only difference was she lost the accent.
    Grantham is in the East Midlands.
    North from my point of view - clearly above Birmingham and the Severn-Wash line!
    Lincolnshire is the only county which in part feels northern, midland and southern.

    Scunthorpe and Grimsby: clearly northern. The names, most of all. Uncompromisingly viking. And the accents. And the nearest big cities - Leeds and Sheffield. A Yorkshireman would quibble, of course, but they'd quibble with everything. And all northerners think the north starts 10 miles south of where they were born.
    Lincoln, Grantham and Skegness: clearly midland. In the outer orbit of Nottingham and Leicester. And again, the accents: midlands.
    Stamford: the south. In the far edges of London commuterland. And you could be in the Cotswolds if it wasn't so flat.

    Also, Holbeach: clearly East Anglia.
    Lincoln itself - the city - is very hard to define. It's quite far north but in places it feels distinctly southern; it's quite far east but doesn't really feel "East Anglian"

    The long walk up to the cathedral on a scented, drizzly dusk in midwinter is sublime, creepy and poetic
    Out of the corner of my eye, and conscious of the author, I read, “sublime, creepy and erotic.”

    Anyway didn’t Lincolnshire used to have “Parts”; I presume they mapped approximately to Cookie’s tripartition.
    Sort of. The whole of northern half of the county (Lindsey) is roughly 'northern', petering through to atypical midlands in places like Louth; the south east (Holland) is all Fenland (highest point in Holland = 8m above sea level, on an unusually high dyke next to a drainage ditch) and is sort of East Anglia; and the south west (Kesteven) is the rest - a mixture of Midlandy and Southish,
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908
    gealbhan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    Yep. The piece is far too long, dull, and banal. There's really nothing there of substance to disagree with - who doesn't want better public services, better jobs, reduced crime? - but it doesn't begin to address the question of how Labour would seek to improve things. Take out the (excessive) ritual Tory-bashing, and the whole 35-page piece really amounts to nothing more than an aspiration to Boris Johnson's rather more pithy 'levelling up', and it is equally vacuous.
    Indeed. The essay in its length and emptiness has actually made things worse. You read it and you think: wait, is this all there is? Is this Starmer the man? Does he not have a single interesting new idea? It reminds me me Gertrude Stein's withering putdown of Oakland, her boring home-town - "there's no there, there"

    At least Boris is entertaining, etc etc. Also I can't see Starmer having the audacity to bring off a foreign policy coup like Aukus

    Starmer has revealed himself and the revelation is a void
    To be fair to Starmer, I do like the opening line of his essay: In the middle of the journey of our movements life we find ourselves within a dark wood where the left way is lost.
    The only good bit of the Starmer essay is the ending


    "So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

    That is unexpectedly deft, I will admit, otherwise it is all cliche
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    Yep. The piece is far too long, dull, and banal. There's really nothing there of substance to disagree with - who doesn't want better public services, better jobs, reduced crime? - but it doesn't begin to address the question of how Labour would seek to improve things. Take out the (excessive) ritual Tory-bashing, and the whole 35-page piece really amounts to nothing more than an aspiration to Boris Johnson's rather more pithy 'levelling up', and it is equally vacuous.
    Indeed. The essay in its length and emptiness has actually made things worse. You read it and you think: wait, is this all there is? Is this Starmer the man? Does he not have a single interesting new idea? It reminds me me Gertrude Stein's withering putdown of Oakland, her boring home-town - "there's no there, there"

    At least Boris is entertaining, etc etc. Also I can't see Starmer having the audacity to bring off a foreign policy coup like Aukus

    Starmer has revealed himself and the revelation is a void
    When it comes to the next GE, he has to sell his product to the country better than Boris sells his. Much better really, as Boris is the incumbent. In all but one of the current opinion polls, he trails Boris in Gross and Net Satisfaction - this is in Mid Term after Covid, Afghanistan, Empty Shelves, Rising Fuel prices, AND John Lewis wallpaper-gate. My main reason for thinking he isn't going to win that Election is I cant imagine him being able to do that, esp as he isn't already - I thought it before any of this had happened too

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/06/06/the-case-for-making-personality-ratings-a-good-electoral-indicator/
  • TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Surely generic Geordie / Cheryl Cole / Billy Elliott should feature in that list as a distinct popular culture species.
    What is this 'generic Geordie?'

    There's normal Geordie. Like what Cheryl speaks. And me.

    Then you get the comical singsong Geordie. Usually spoken by people trying to put on a Geordie accent.

    Also, there is posh Geordie. People who say Ny'castle instead of NEWcastle.

  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    One of those e-scooters would be perfect for my 3-4 mile commute. I even wanted one before covid hit but my wife said no as it wasnt legal.

    I think that needs changing. I can ride a pedal bike faster than their maximum speed.

    Now they are saying we only need to work 20% of time in the office so the bus is fine for that.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Aslan said:

    Unfortunately for Rayner I think a Northern woman with a tendency to being aggressive in PMQs would play into a classist-sexist stereotype that would go down badly with the public.

    Strictly speaking, all of that applied to Margaret Thatcher as well.

    The only difference was she lost the accent.
    Grantham is in the East Midlands.
    North from my point of view - clearly above Birmingham and the Severn-Wash line!
    Lincolnshire is the only county which in part feels northern, midland and southern.

    Scunthorpe and Grimsby: clearly northern. The names, most of all. Uncompromisingly viking. And the accents. And the nearest big cities - Leeds and Sheffield. A Yorkshireman would quibble, of course, but they'd quibble with everything. And all northerners think the north starts 10 miles south of where they were born.
    Lincoln, Grantham and Skegness: clearly midland. In the outer orbit of Nottingham and Leicester. And again, the accents: midlands.
    Stamford: the south. In the far edges of London commuterland. And you could be in the Cotswolds if it wasn't so flat.

    Also, Holbeach: clearly East Anglia.
    Lincoln itself - the city - is very hard to define. It's quite far north but in places it feels distinctly southern; it's quite far east but doesn't really feel "East Anglian"

    The long walk up to the cathedral on a scented, drizzly dusk in midwinter is sublime, creepy and poetic
    The River Witham below Lincoln Cathedral flows through a gap in the Lincolnshire Limestone created during the ice age.

    East of this gap was a huge glacial lake which eventually became the Fens, North West of the gap was another glacial lake which filled the Vale of York, and South West of the gap was the Trent, which drains most of what we now call the East Midlands.

    So if you go far enough back, Lincoln is literally the meeting point of North, East and Midlands.

    It is interesting how these divisions persist based on a long lost landscape.

    Fascinating!

    One reason Lincoln feels southern is the hill, and the lushness of that river, which makes it all feel more like somewhere in Dorset or Somerset or Herefordshire
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,819
    Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita mi ritrovai per una selva oscura, ché la diritta via era smarrita

    Smarten up guys
  • Leon said:


    Indeed. The essay in its length and emptiness has actually made things worse. You read it and you think: wait, is this all there is? Is this Starmer the man? Does he not have a single interesting new idea? It reminds me me Gertrude Stein's withering putdown of Oakland, her boring home-town - "there's no there, there"

    At least Boris is entertaining, etc etc. Also I can't see Starmer having the audacity to bring off a foreign policy coup like Aukus

    Starmer has revealed himself and the revelation is a void

    I suppose on the plus side it's encouraging what is not in it. It's free of Corbynesque hard-left, anti-British lunacy, and doesn't harp on about trans rights or cancelling Churchill. That's something, but it's not enough.

    I think the truth is that Starmer would make a good middle-ranking Cabinet minister, but I'm not seeing much in the way of leadership qualities or inspiration. Even that might not be too bad if he had a good team working closely with him, but he seems curiously alone at the top of the party. I don't know whether that is because he doesn't connect with his colleagues, or simply has chosen the wrong inner team.
  • Another point: there's going to be vast sums of money in efficiently recycling car batteries.

    It'll be a good business to be in, if you get the tech right.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908
    And, to be fair, I did like this bit in Starmer's essay where he discusses potential new tram systems for the Midlands, and the funding thereof

    "and how he kissed me under the Moorish wall and I thought well as well him as another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes."
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 1,837

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

    There are certainly old (2013) Teslas being written off with battery issues, and a replacement is £20k or thereabouts. There’s also stories of them being used as taxis and running up 300,000 miles. Both of these can of course be true, and it may be that age is more of a factor than mileage in determining vehicle life.

    We’ll find out in the next few years!
    Since there's much fewer moving parts (I believe) it could possibly even be that it's better suited for more mileage than less.

    Ie if it's constantly moving like a taxi then it stays operational but if it's idle on the driveway days at a time then it's less so.

    Not saying it's the case but it's a possibility.
    With batteries, I can see the way it's being driven and charged mattering more than actual kwh usage. For instance, continuously gunning it down the road might harm the batteries more than the same energy used more gently. Ditto charging: fast charging may be worse (or potentially better) than trickle charging.

    The recent stories about the cost of replacing Tesla batteries are frankly scary.
    It is a shame that nobody has worked out a way to build an electric car where the batteries can just be swapped out quickly. It would solve both the charging problems (pull up, swap battery, drive off, charge later using the cheapest electricity available) and the battery lifetime problems.

    I understand why - it is safer to build it as part of the vehicle structure, and different car designs need different battery shapes - but maybe there is a way. If only they could be smaller.
  • The French foreign minister met with Anthony Blinken but says that getting out of the crisis will take time and require action from the Americans...

    https://twitter.com/JY_LeDrian/status/1441052841053937676
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,586
    gealbhan said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    Has our Kin come through alive from his self imposed purgatory yet?

    What was his feedback? Is there a policy in there somewhere?
    I am - and this is the gods own truth - starting it NOW.

    In the meantime, here is OJ's latest take on where things are with Labour:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/22/labour-fear-party-left-change-leadership-election-rules

    He is not happy. I agree with much of what he says but I'm not as pessimistic or angry about it. Plus, even if I was I wouldn't say so on here. Tories and Johnson must stay in the cross-hairs of my rifle. Can't be getting distracted.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,113
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    You're saying he didn't use the Brexit/childbirth analogy.
    I'm saying he should have found a better title, for a start

    THE ROAD AHEAD

    Christ. That alone makes you want to hurl it across the room. So tedious, so earnest, so bloody predictable. THE ROAD AHEAD

    Why not go for something poetic, or weird, or striking, or authentically him?

    The trouble he is trying to be all things to all men and he ends up being nothing to no-one. And he is, I suspect, actually quite genuinely boring - albeit smart. Also, there is not a spark of humour. Does anyone have evidence of a sense of humour in Starmer? I search and my search yieldeth nought
    I thought the essay was authentically Starmer. He is genuinely boring, also competent, honest, responsible and conscientious, when his opponent is none of those things.

    Question is whether enough of the public will vote for those qualities in its leader. So far, no.
    I think the question is, increasingly, surely Labour can do better than this?

    Boris is all the bad things you say, but he is also very clever, cunning and ruthless (as we see with Aukus). And charismatic. He will be hard to beat but a lot of nasty news is heading our way and a really good Labour leader could win

    Starmer, I fear, is not it

    You may be right about Starmer. I think there are a couple of ideas hidden in the essay that someone could work with. eg being more careful in how you spend people's taxes, which is not the same question as whether taxes should be higher or lower. Also on the Conservatives being the party of privilege, which jars with their levelling up rhetoric.
  • dixiedean said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Surely generic Geordie / Cheryl Cole / Billy Elliott should feature in that list as a distinct popular culture species.
    Billy Elliott isn't a Geordie.
    Also Lancashire / Yorkshire are very distinct. Southerners can't always tell. But if you are from either they have some howling dissimilarities. Double o pronunciation for a start.
    I really enjoyed listening to the Wigan accent when I stopped off to buy a pie the other day.

    A very warm, rich sounding accent. And a nice pie.
  • darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    One of those e-scooters would be perfect for my 3-4 mile commute. I even wanted one before covid hit but my wife said no as it wasnt legal.

    I think that needs changing. I can ride a pedal bike faster than their maximum speed.

    Now they are saying we only need to work 20% of time in the office so the bus is fine for that.
    I'm all for electric scooters being banned, or at least regulated. The way kids ride them around here is fairly shocking; far faster than the kids on bikes, and on and off the pavement, down the middle of the road, etc.

    In Milton a week or so ago, I saw a couple of lads on a scooter. Wearing dark clothes, in the dark, obviously pi**ed out their minds, weaving all around the road.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita mi ritrovai per una selva oscura, ché la diritta via era smarrita

    Smarten up guys

    L'amor che move il sole e l'altre stelle!
  • darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    We are at the foot of an 'S' curve which will see new electric cars become cheaper than ICE cars much faster than most people expect. It is well known that they are cheaper to run, require less maintenance and wear out much more slowly, since there's less to go wrong.
    I decided not to buy a Tesla as they are currently too expensive ( I invested in their shares instead, which proved to be a good move). Instead I bought a 6 year old Golf GTE which has about 26 miles EV range. It uses fossil fuels but for the journeys I do I get around 300 mpg, but I do have to pay (only) a few quid for electricity too. For the poster who is worried about driving off with the cable attached - my car won't let you even try.
    Predictions are that by 2030 it won't be worth owning any sort of car - we will apparently use 'Transport As A Service' instead and save loads of money. That sounds far fetched, but then again predictions of solar, wind and battery prices dropping around 80% in ten years sounded mad in 2010.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM2RxWtF4Ds&t=73s

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,975

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

    There are certainly old (2013) Teslas being written off with battery issues, and a replacement is £20k or thereabouts. There’s also stories of them being used as taxis and running up 300,000 miles. Both of these can of course be true, and it may be that age is more of a factor than mileage in determining vehicle life.

    We’ll find out in the next few years!
    Since there's much fewer moving parts (I believe) it could possibly even be that it's better suited for more mileage than less.

    Ie if it's constantly moving like a taxi then it stays operational but if it's idle on the driveway days at a time then it's less so.

    Not saying it's the case but it's a possibility.
    With batteries, I can see the way it's being driven and charged mattering more than actual kwh usage. For instance, continuously gunning it down the road might harm the batteries more than the same energy used more gently. Ditto charging: fast charging may be worse (or potentially better) than trickle charging.

    The recent stories about the cost of replacing Tesla batteries are frankly scary.
    It is a shame that nobody has worked out a way to build an electric car where the batteries can just be swapped out quickly. It would solve both the charging problems (pull up, swap battery, drive off, charge later using the cheapest electricity available) and the battery lifetime problems.

    I understand why - it is safer to build it as part of the vehicle structure, and different car designs need different battery shapes - but maybe there is a way. If only they could be smaller.
    That should be how electric trucks end up working, some sort of battery swap lease service.

    The packaging is simply too tight, and weight-critical. to do it with cars.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,231

    Sandpit said:

    darkage said:

    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    I just paid £3,500 for a 2005 Mercedes E500. With a V8 and a big boot. How much does an EV of similar size and performance cost?

    Yes, its going to be a massive problem for governments, millions of people with old cars rely on them for work, and don’t have somewhere dedicated to park at home. They’re nurses and warehouse workers.

    Oh, and the £40bn ish of fuel duty and road tax.
    I am not an expert, but my suspicion is that EV's are designed with a 7 year design life. They are leased, rather than sold, so resale values are of less significance. The whole business model of manufacturers has changed. Beyond around 7 years they seem essentially become uneconomic to keep running so they effectively go to be recycled.

    The problem with a £3000 used electric car, if one exists; it would quickly become uneconomic to repair. The contrast with a low mileage ICE vehicle is significant; the latter can keep running indefinetly if it maintained.

    As someone who cycles everywhere I support a societal shift to a shift to bikes or low maintainence battery scooters, but unfortunately it isn't going to be practical for a lot of people. Long distance travel is not feasible using such vehicles. And it poses the question of why can't the rich also make such a shift; after all a 1.5 ton lump of metal with a huge battery that only lasts for 7 years also has quite significant environmental consequences.

    There are certainly old (2013) Teslas being written off with battery issues, and a replacement is £20k or thereabouts. There’s also stories of them being used as taxis and running up 300,000 miles. Both of these can of course be true, and it may be that age is more of a factor than mileage in determining vehicle life.

    We’ll find out in the next few years!
    Since there's much fewer moving parts (I believe) it could possibly even be that it's better suited for more mileage than less.

    Ie if it's constantly moving like a taxi then it stays operational but if it's idle on the driveway days at a time then it's less so.

    Not saying it's the case but it's a possibility.
    With batteries, I can see the way it's being driven and charged mattering more than actual kwh usage. For instance, continuously gunning it down the road might harm the batteries more than the same energy used more gently. Ditto charging: fast charging may be worse (or potentially better) than trickle charging.

    The recent stories about the cost of replacing Tesla batteries are frankly scary.
    Li-ion battery life is tightly tied to the number of cycles, the depth of the cycle and the temperature excursions experienced by the battery.

    Water cooled batteries made a massive difference.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,586
    TOPPING said:

    Amused that OGH is moving on from pinning his hopes on Starmer but after PMQs on Wednesday I'm not at all certain that Rayner is the solution Labour are looking for.

    Not a fan of anyone in Labour but Jonathan Ashworth and Jess Phillips seem to be the two MPs who can carry a point across well, even if I don't agree with them.

    Don't forget @kinabalu's favourite - ex-public schoolboy Barry Gardiner. Fits the Lab leader profile particularly well.
    No longer a player, sadly. Very underrated politician. Big brain and a heart of gold.
    https://www.brainyquote.com/lists/authors/top-10-barry-gardiner-quotes
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,149
    Sandpit said:

    Was it around this time in Blair’s leadership, that his “Big Idea” for Conference was scrapping Clause 4?

    What’s Starmer’s Clause 4?

    Pre-conference speculation has it as tweaking the leadership electoral system.

    But perhaps he's going to go a bit more radical. Embrace Brexit. Embrace the north, delivering his entire speech in a range of northern accents, with a pie in his hand and a ferret up his trouser leg. Embrace anti-wokeness by announcing the ex Lib Dem t-shirt lady as the party's new spokeswoman on gender issues. Just a few ideas for him to chew on...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 965
    dixiedean said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    algarkirk said:

    isam said:

    Agree with Mike that Labour should have a female leader, who would unsettle Boris more than Sir Keir does. My choice would be Jess Phillips but maybe Rayner would do well also. Similar attitude

    Jess Phillips is one of a tiny group of possible leaders that would get me thinking about voting Labour in a GE (I usually vote Labour in local elections). Rayner absolutely not. A Rayner leadership would make a Tory majority firm favourite at the next election.

    Labour either needs a charismatic reply to Boris (Jess about the only candidate there) or stick with dull decency but adding some actual policy on tough issues.
    I think the advantages Jess has are a) being able to be known on first name terms, like a brand ("Boris" even though, yes it isn't his first name), and b) seemingly being a perfect mix of the two sides of the Labour coin - she is politicxally quite a Blairite, but comes across like an angry Corbynite. Party diehards will know the truth, but the average voter will see a kind of (deliberately) common looking, plain speaking, working class woman, authentic old Labour rather than a grammar school educated middle class, daughter of quite high achieving parents, authentic new Labour
    Good post and thinking, but the Brummie accent? Hmm.
    She hasn't got a Brummie accent- she's form Stockport
    The UK has the following accents:

    The Queen
    Posh southerners
    Poor Londoners
    West country yokels
    Generic angry northerner
    Unintelligible Liverpudlian
    Bullish Brummie
    Scottish (if they are lucky 2 variants)
    Welsh
    And 'Are you from the Republic of Ireland'?

    Frankly Birmingham is lucky to get in there, never mind others.
    Surely generic Geordie / Cheryl Cole / Billy Elliott should feature in that list as a distinct popular culture species.
    Billy Elliott isn't a Geordie.
    Also Lancashire / Yorkshire are very distinct. Southerners can't always tell. But if you are from either they have some howling dissimilarities. Double o pronunciation for a start.
    Er, wasn't the point of the original post supposed to be generic stereotype accents rather than a nuanced selection of actual accents?
  • Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I hope we have all read Starmer's magnum opus....i wonder who other than himself have read it cover to cover.

    There should be a circle in Dante's Purgatory where the daily punishment is "read 15,000 words by Keir Starmer" - again and again and again
    You can't really say this until you've read it, which you haven't. Nor have I but I'm about to. Once I have I'll give my honest opinion of it. But not before.
    You said you were about to read it hours ago. Have you not been able to summon up the will to get started?
    OK i just took the plunge and had a look at the Keir Starmer meisterwerk

    On the very first page it says "people in this country are crying out for change"

    I mean, really? REALLY? Does Sir Kir Royale think this is a startling and exciting new idea, phrased in a way that captures the heart?

    Or did it not cross his desiccated mind that this is a thumping great cliche, so wearily overused it causes physical pain to the reader?

    The rest of the essay is in similar style. Banality after banality, well meaning guff expressed with earnest mundanity. It is the Labour leader captured on the page. I could not find a single uplifting phrase that made me think.

    I don't like being this mean. Starmer obviously has good intention, is clearly decent and kind, but Jeez. If this is the way he writes he should have hired a writer.

    You're saying he didn't use the Brexit/childbirth analogy.
    I'm saying he should have found a better title, for a start

    THE ROAD AHEAD

    Christ. That alone makes you want to hurl it across the room. So tedious, so earnest, so bloody predictable. THE ROAD AHEAD

    Why not go for something poetic, or weird, or striking, or authentically him?

    The trouble he is trying to be all things to all men and he ends up being nothing to no-one. And he is, I suspect, actually quite genuinely boring - albeit smart. Also, there is not a spark of humour. Does anyone have evidence of a sense of humour in Starmer? I search and my search yieldeth nought
    Presumably you'd have liked him to use HOT TEEN GIRLS as a header to attract your attention?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,586
    carnforth said:

    kinabalu said:

    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Hasn't he just been diagnosed with kidney cancer?
    Besides which, another London MP and they may as well give up.
    Caught very early, I gather, so hopefully he'll be ok. Or as ok as you can be post cancer.
    Kidney cancer, caught early, can involve simply the removal of the offending kidney, with no radiation or chemo required. Hopefully this is the case for Wes Streeting.
    Yes, that's what happened with him per his recent interview in the Times.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 2,979
    I read it. There were probably half a dozen small bits of policy in it, some criminal justice changes, replacing UC, but no big 5 'here is what we would do'.

    It really was 'here is the basis on which we will, in future, make policies'. A light sketch, not yet coloured in.

    Now, I won't particularly need, haven't needed, a great surfeit of lustre on a leader to vote Labour, especially against this lot. I do need them not to be terrorist sympathisers. But, I'm not the only voter, so it matters.

    A Liz Kendall, for instance, would have written something far more compelling. (I know we're not going that way, just making a comparison with someone who would have aced this particular step on the road).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 14,908
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    Amused that OGH is moving on from pinning his hopes on Starmer but after PMQs on Wednesday I'm not at all certain that Rayner is the solution Labour are looking for.

    Not a fan of anyone in Labour but Jonathan Ashworth and Jess Phillips seem to be the two MPs who can carry a point across well, even if I don't agree with them.

    Don't forget @kinabalu's favourite - ex-public schoolboy Barry Gardiner. Fits the Lab leader profile particularly well.
    No longer a player, sadly. Very underrated politician. Big brain and a heart of gold.
    https://www.brainyquote.com/lists/authors/top-10-barry-gardiner-quotes
    I always had an odd soft spot for him. Charming and witty
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,658
    Selebian said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    Plus another £5000 for the new batteries you will need to drive it off the forecourt.
    Yep, cheapo second (or third etc) hand electric cars are not really viable at the moment.

    But if we have new ICEs potentially until 2030 or so, then cheapo second hand electric cars won't be needed until the late 2030s (as there will still be plenty of cheapo second hand ICEs).

    If ICEs disappear sooner, then it will be because the electric tech has come on more quickly and there will then be cheapo second hand electrics that are viable earlier than late 2030s too.

    And, the 2030 ban doesn't apply to hybrids, I think? So worst case, if there are still issues by then you buy, in late 2030s, a ropey old hybrid with a useless battery and drive it as an ICE (although given the batteries in hybrids are much smaller, probably no big cost to replace those anyway).

    TLDR: Electrics will only replace ICEs when they're a better all-round option, including in the second hand market (ohterwise people will baulk at the depreciation).
    As you suggest hybrid ICE is a waste of time. I was all set on a 2018 Mercedes c300h (PHEV) earlier in the year. MB reckoned 30 mile battery range, owner reviews said 20 was wildly optimistic. Instead I got a 2019 BMW 320d ED which is giving me a phenomenal 60mpg average.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    edited September 2021
    I think Mr Smithson has been drinking. To describe Rayner as articulate is stretching credulity beyond reasonable bounds. He must have
    written it knowing its not true.
  • Starmer's statement is poor, and I think he's being badly advised.

    I thought he may be able to find a new vocabulary, equivalent to a kind of updated Wilsonism, but that statement says nothing new, and is as dated as Tony Blair's first conference speech.

    I'm also beginning to think Rayner may be able to find a more distinctive vocabulary.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,860
    Pulpstar said:

    MattW said:

    darkage said:

    felix said:

    Sandpit said:

    ping said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Does anyone think this energy crisis could bring down the government?

    I think they’re gonna have to ditch the cap. Even if they don’t, it’s looking quite possible average energy bills will rise to ~£1800 from April. For many people that will be almost double.

    Hard not to see some political spillover.

    Especially when it clashes with the COP26 rhetoric. It’s a head on smash between the Carrie wing of the Tory party and the red wall voters.
    At some point soon, it’s going to hit that climate change mitigation comes with huge costs for the average person.
    I already have nightmares of driving off while the car's still plugged in - And I haven't bought one yet!
    I think the looming political problem is the increased cost of motoring. A lot of people rely on old petrol cars for cheap motoring. They cost almost nothing. By way of example, the total depreciation on my last car was £1700 over 4 years. There were no other costs at all, aside from annual servicing and MOT (£150), along with Insurance and petrol, but it did 40 mpg.

    New cars, including electric cars, essentially cost at least £200 per month. They don't last the way that older petrol vehicles do due to the complicated tech and particularly battery life. If old cars are taxed and regulated out of existence, that is going to be a disaster for poor people.


    Let them use bikes.
    Secondhand electrical cars start at about £3000 at present.
    £3275 gets a 64 reg Alto with 39,100 miles on the clock. https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202109227685340?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&year-from=2014&radius=1500&maximum-mileage=40000&price-from=3000&postcode=cv47he&price-to=3500&include-delivery-option=on&sort=relevance&exclude-writeoff-categories=on&advertising-location=at_cars&page=1

    What sort of electric car does it get.
    That would how much of your £1000 or so a year on fuel for say 4 years I get to add to my purchase price :smile:

    Anyhoo, we are nearly there on this now.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,835
    Sandpit said:

    Was it around this time in Blair’s leadership, that his “Big Idea” for Conference was scrapping Clause 4?

    What’s Starmer’s Clause 4?

    No women at conference?
This discussion has been closed.