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BoJo would find it more challenging facing Angela Rayner – politicalbetting.com

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  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069
    Stocky said:

    Just been contacted by Flipper - who have been great for years flipping me on to the best energy deals with me having to do naff all - great service for £25 per year fee.

    Anyway - they are ceasing trading. What a shame:


    "With less reliable smaller retailer options available, and with others pulling tariffs from the market, there is now little or no option to flip customers. At the same time, we incur very high operating costs associated with the way the market is regulated.

    With 18,000 Flipper customers being caught up in the supplier of last resort process this week, we are very sad to announce that we are withdrawing from the market, as we can no longer continue to offer the service promised to you, our loyal members and we can no longer sustain the great savings that as Flipper customers you have come to expect. "

    Good grief! How could you contemplate using a company that is seeking less reliable smaller retailers?
  • Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Agreed. Wes who?!

    Angela Rayner, Jess Phillips, or Rosena Allin-Khan would be my preference. Any of whom have 10x the charisma of poor well-meaning SKS.
    At this moment in time Starmer is labour's best leader

    A leadership election in this post brexit, post covid, cost of living crisis would be unfathomable
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,849
    rcs1000 said:

    On the one hand, I oppose this...

    On the other, I'd love all my electronics devices to have the same charging cable

    Just let the market sort this out. I'll upgrade my Kindle a little sooner if I can charge it with my iPhone stuff.

    Unfortunately, Brexit or otherwise, we're going to get the EUs decision on this.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,821
    Where is the actual text of the essay available
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069
    Pulpstar said:

    Stocky said:

    Just been contacted by Flipper - who have been great for years flipping me on to the best energy deals with me having to do naff all - great service for £25 per year fee.

    Anyway - they are ceasing trading. What a shame:


    "With less reliable smaller retailer options available, and with others pulling tariffs from the market, there is now little or no option to flip customers. At the same time, we incur very high operating costs associated with the way the market is regulated.

    With 18,000 Flipper customers being caught up in the supplier of last resort process this week, we are very sad to announce that we are withdrawing from the market, as we can no longer continue to offer the service promised to you, our loyal members and we can no longer sustain the great savings that as Flipper customers you have come to expect. "

    There are still good deals about, SSE's 2 yr fixed is negligibly over the current cap - all indications that'll be a saving post April 22.
    But if @rcs1000 is right there could be better fixed deals available by April 22.

    What to do, eh? It's a terrible first-world problem I'm facing right now. (I can't even jump to SSE's deal until our forced transfer to British Gas is complete.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,149
    IshmaelZ said:

    Where is the actual text of the essay available

    https://fabians.org.uk/publication/the-road-ahead/
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,849

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I know. I was sort of hoping you had a North Wales candidate up your sleeve. As I think you knew anyway :)
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    edited September 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Where is the actual text of the essay available

    https://fabians.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/The-Road-Ahead-FINAL_WEB-fri-1.pdf

    The best section for me was where he went for the hedgehog vote. As someone with many relatives who are hedgehogs, I can say 2019 for the first time likely ever, the majority of them voted Tory. If he has nothing at all here for the Red Wall, at east there is a pitch to hedgehogs.

    Weaved from tangles of bramble and twist of thorns, bracken green, bracken broken brown conceiving things, a crackle concluding with crunch, while flutter the theft of snagged feathers upon each branch. Stretching from the loam and stubble of sweetest earth, a tall hedge stands here, intimate to all weather, intimate to all men slain here, the clouds who visit from heavens fields, the visitors from wastes for souls harvested in autumn, sown with carrot seed each new year.
    This night grows fuller, like a creeper from a crypt, thrown athwart thru the seasons yet ever closer to a weakening eye. There is safety in darkness. In the cooler, damper conditions that night time bring, Leila’s preferred food is out and about, crawling and wriggling, inching and dangling, and she was snuffling around, relying largely on sense of smell and hearing, to secure the next mouthful. Leila is a hedgepig, a solitary and largely nocturnal animal. During the long days of spring and summer, she sleeps in temporary accommodation, wakes at dusk to venture out on hunt for food and thrills, without knowing where the night may take her: be it over stone walls, under fences, she is even partial to a nocturnal swim.
    Hedgepigs enjoy fine dining, first course, beetles, caterpillars, earthworms, whilst for mains eggs and newborn mice are particular delicacy. For desert soft fruit is eaten, more readily available in Autumn. Leila though is a fussy eater, of late she has gone off slugs and snails. Hedgepig’s are widely found across England, in mainly woodland habitats, hedgerows, but also fields and town parks and country gardens. They never leave home without their distinctive spiny coat, nor without snarling their coarse hair found on face and underparts. These creatures also have the strange habit of 'self anointing'; when coming across a strong smell or taste, it twists its head round and, using the tongue, covers its spines and fur in a frothy saliva - looking as though covered in soap bubbles! This behaviour is quite normal, but no-one knows its purpose.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,821
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Where is the actual text of the essay available

    https://fabians.org.uk/publication/the-road-ahead/
    tks
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707
    Aslan said:

    Omnium said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    ...

    MaxPB said:

    So here we are on PB, as usual, full circle:

    1. What does Starmer stand for? He needs to set out a vision, not specific policies this early, but a vision of where he wants to take the country.
    2. 14,000 words? I can't be bothered to read that, far too long. We need a 3-word vision, like Get Brexit Undone or something.
    3. I've read it, and I don't like Starmer's vision. Why did he waste his time writing it?
    4. What's the point of Starmer? He has nothing to say.
    5. It's about time Starmer set out a vision for the future of the country.
    6. Mind you, I'd never vote for him anyway, because I'm a Tory.

    But by all accounts there's nothing said in the 14,000 words. Even if there is, who the hell has got time to read it. My master's thesis was only about 25k words and that was a culmination of 4 years of university.

    If you can't see that 14,000 words is excessive then it's you that has got the issue, not us. I've got an open mind for Labour, but not enough to waste my time reading 14,000 words of what appears to be a long winded way of saying nothing at all.
    He is writing for the Fabian Society, to be fair, not The Sun. People who are into things like the FS probably don't mind reading 14,000 words. When it comes to addressing the public at large he will obviously be more direct.
    A very fair point Isam. Not something I have written before, I don't suppose...now on to your charisma quotient thesis.
    I don't think it is a positive thing that charisma plays a bigger part than intellectual rigourt in electing PM's, I just think it probably does. I spent ages arguing Brown was more suited to PM than Cameron, but ultimately you have to recognise the way things work
    Brown is/was the most wildly unsuitable PM that it's possible to imagine. The man is an absolute clown.

    Cameron on the other hand was a really good PM.
    Cameron mismanaged the EU issue, mismanaged the China issue, turned out to be purely PR on climate change, and implemented austerity too early.
    Until Boris, Cameron was the worst PM in living memory.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,234
    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the one hand, I oppose this...

    On the other, I'd love all my electronics devices to have the same charging cable

    Just let the market sort this out. I'll upgrade my Kindle a little sooner if I can charge it with my iPhone stuff.

    Unfortunately, Brexit or otherwise, we're going to get the EUs decision on this.
    Wireless charging will become universal in the near future. The phone companies want this because it means they can seal the cases completely - water damage is the biggest issue with phones now.
  • murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,113
    Selebian said:

    Ok I just read the foreword.

    Let’s just say that @kinabalu upthread should not give up the day job for literary criticism.

    It feels like a piece of ad copy that an ill-organised client group have smothered to death.

    I have to agree, so far.

    He references ten principles which do no re-surface until the end and many are a bit 'meh'

    "The government should treat taxpayer money as if it were its own." is part of one. Eh? The government should treat taxpayer money as if it belongs to the taxpayer, I'd say, and demonstrate that it's done something valuable with it or, failing that, give it back. I know what it's trying to say, but it is clumsy.
    I don't see a problem here. In fact I think it's one of the better bits of the essay. If people spent public money as if it were their own, they would care far more about the value they get for it. It's a genuinely distinctive idea. If we're moving into a high tax, high spend world, controlling VFM becomes more important than ever.

    Starmer now needs to articulate that idea into a message that people understand and relate to.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707
    edited September 2021

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century! Starmer needs to be a bit bolder - playing safe is not the answer...
  • Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the one hand, I oppose this...

    On the other, I'd love all my electronics devices to have the same charging cable

    Just let the market sort this out. I'll upgrade my Kindle a little sooner if I can charge it with my iPhone stuff.

    Unfortunately, Brexit or otherwise, we're going to get the EUs decision on this.
    Wireless charging will become universal in the near future. The phone companies want this because it means they can seal the cases completely - water damage is the biggest issue with phones now.
    I can only charge my phone wirelessly as the charging port wore out.

    The annoyance with wireless charging is its much slower than wired charging plus if your phones flat and you want to use it then that's very awkward.
  • Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069
    Re Apple.

    I'm typing this on my (still perfectly functioning) 10 year old Macbook Air.

    In the previous 10 years I'd had to jettision three Windows PCs because they becmae totally unworkable due to uninvited junk and unrunnable OS upgrades.

    That, plus the simple interconnectivity of my Macbook, iMac, iPads, and iPhone, are the reasons I'm an Apple fan.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 3,443
    edited September 2021

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the one hand, I oppose this...

    On the other, I'd love all my electronics devices to have the same charging cable

    Just let the market sort this out. I'll upgrade my Kindle a little sooner if I can charge it with my iPhone stuff.

    Unfortunately, Brexit or otherwise, we're going to get the EUs decision on this.
    Wireless charging will become universal in the near future. The phone companies want this because it means they can seal the cases completely - water damage is the biggest issue with phones now.
    I can only charge my phone wirelessly as the charging port wore out.

    The annoyance with wireless charging is its much slower than wired charging plus if your phones flat and you want to use it then that's very awkward.
    Yes how do you read your phone in bed at the end of the day if it’s only wireless charging?
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    You may find in 24 that it is for this century as well

    And on Boris, he is a long way from being on the right apart from Brexit

    He has tacked left by some distance from parts of his party
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707
    edited September 2021

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    You're right about Johnson Mr D (Johnson only cares about Johnson), but there are others in his cabinet who to put in mildy are rather unpleasant. He has allied with the loons on a purely self interest level.

    Mr D - you surely know that Murali is a male name. Don't you watch cricket? It's a very common Dravidian (south Indian) name :smile:
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,558

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,234
    moonshine said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the one hand, I oppose this...

    On the other, I'd love all my electronics devices to have the same charging cable

    Just let the market sort this out. I'll upgrade my Kindle a little sooner if I can charge it with my iPhone stuff.

    Unfortunately, Brexit or otherwise, we're going to get the EUs decision on this.
    Wireless charging will become universal in the near future. The phone companies want this because it means they can seal the cases completely - water damage is the biggest issue with phones now.
    I can only charge my phone wirelessly as the charging port wore out.

    The annoyance with wireless charging is its much slower than wired charging plus if your phones flat and you want to use it then that's very awkward.
    Yes how do you read your phone in bed at the end of the day if it’s only wireless charging?
    Bit like removing the headphone jack from more and more phones.......
  • Starmer is a crap writer. But there is a but, IMO. That pamphlet is clearly signalling where he wants to take Labour's focus from here until the election: away from what matters most to party members and towards the primary concerns of regular voters.

    He has identified those concerns as being insecurity - in the workplace, in housing, on the streets, in the environment, etc; and inequality - the opportunities that were once available to someone with his background are no longer there. Those, I think, are the basis for a strong message and for a set of coherent policies.

    The message is this government has failed to deliver the security that people want and need; and it has failed to tackle the deep-seated inequalities that have developed in the UK over the last 30 years. The policies will be all about how Labour will change that.

    Did this require 14,000 words? Probably not. Is it the beginnings of something that could resonate? I think it could be. Is Starmer capable of delivering? Increasingly, that looks unlikely. But I don't think the Labour party is currently capable of allowing anyone to.

    I would very much like to be wrong.

    I've now read it, and I agree with that, though I'm a bit more optimistic about Starmer personally.
    You say he's a 'crap' writer - seems a bit harsh. It's certainly not glittering prose, but he doesn't write for a living. Seems to me to be perfectly competently written, rather than badly written.
  • Mr. S, I do not, although I am vaguely aware of a Sri Lankan chap now you mention it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,821

    Re Apple.

    I'm typing this on my (still perfectly functioning) 10 year old Macbook Air.

    In the previous 10 years I'd had to jettision three Windows PCs because they becmae totally unworkable due to uninvited junk and unrunnable OS upgrades.

    That, plus the simple interconnectivity of my Macbook, iMac, iPads, and iPhone, are the reasons I'm an Apple fan.

    Sinister tinge to the interconnectivity point: you will read any amount of accounts on mumsnet.com of wives being screwed over by husbands (mainly that way round) who were reading all the wife's iPhone messages on a connected ipad. I know of one really serious case in real life.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 421

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Agreed. Wes who?!

    Angela Rayner, Jess Phillips, or Rosena Allin-Khan would be my preference. Any of whom have 10x the charisma of poor well-meaning SKS.
    At this moment in time Starmer is labour's best leader

    A leadership election in this post brexit, post covid, cost of living crisis would be unfathomable
    Agreed

    I voted for Lisa Nandy in the leadership election and think she'd make an excellent PM, and she has certainly demonstrated greater vision than Keir Starmer. However, Starmer is competent, is doing broadly the right things, and simply hasn't been in the public eye enough to know how people will respond during an election campaign. (Yes, he should have found ways to get into the public eye, but I'm not sure that's a fatal flaw considering what he's up against.)

    Any temptation to support a leadership change now evaporates when I see that there are still people out there who are seriously suggesting Phillips. She would drive an exodus of members and voters, myself included. Angela Rayner is a more serious option, but I'm not convinced she would win more votes than Starmer.
  • Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,558

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    You may find in 24 that it is for this century as well

    And on Boris, he is a long way from being on the right apart from Brexit

    He has tacked left by some distance from parts of his party
    I agree with you to a certain degree. Wish he would jettison the loony brigade.
  • Farooq said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
    Would you really bail out those small energy companies failing just now and have you costed it
  • I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Possibly but politics is still viewed with a Brexit prism (will that change - who knows?) and Brexit is relatively right-wing.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 5,170
    Hi everyone. It looks like I get to post one comment after resetting my password before the system kicks me out again. Hopefully it won't do it this time, but if I am absent from the site for a long while, that will be the reason. My guess is that it is something to do with Vanilla.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069
    edited September 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Re Apple.

    I'm typing this on my (still perfectly functioning) 10 year old Macbook Air.

    In the previous 10 years I'd had to jettision three Windows PCs because they becmae totally unworkable due to uninvited junk and unrunnable OS upgrades.

    That, plus the simple interconnectivity of my Macbook, iMac, iPads, and iPhone, are the reasons I'm an Apple fan.

    Sinister tinge to the interconnectivity point: you will read any amount of accounts on mumsnet.com of wives being screwed over by husbands (mainly that way round) who were reading all the wife's iPhone messages on a connected ipad. I know of one really serious case in real life.
    I won't read any amount of accounts on mumsnet because I don't go there but yes I take your point. Controlling men will always find ways to control though, sadly.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,504
    rcs1000 said:

    On the one hand, I oppose this...

    On the other, I'd love all my electronics devices to have the same charging cable

    Sigh, forgot to link to the actual story - https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/23/22626723/eu-commission-universal-charger-usb-c-micro-lightning-connector-smartphones
  • I was hoping for some fresh thinking but it feels very boilerplate. Heavy on diagnosis, light on solutions
  • Farooq said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
    Raising taxes isn't left? 🤔

    This is what Gordon Brown repeatedly did and was both Labour Party and SNP Party policy until Rishi and Boris did it.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,558

    Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
    Nothing to do with Brexit. I'm thinking more of the sort of people he has around around him. Patel, Dorries... their presence in government is largely about appeasing the far right. Certainly not for their administrative qualities or trustworthiness.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,504
    moonshine said:

    Omnium said:

    rcs1000 said:

    On the one hand, I oppose this...

    On the other, I'd love all my electronics devices to have the same charging cable

    Just let the market sort this out. I'll upgrade my Kindle a little sooner if I can charge it with my iPhone stuff.

    Unfortunately, Brexit or otherwise, we're going to get the EUs decision on this.
    Wireless charging will become universal in the near future. The phone companies want this because it means they can seal the cases completely - water damage is the biggest issue with phones now.
    I can only charge my phone wirelessly as the charging port wore out.

    The annoyance with wireless charging is its much slower than wired charging plus if your phones flat and you want to use it then that's very awkward.
    Yes how do you read your phone in bed at the end of the day if it’s only wireless charging?
    I've installed a QI charging pad in my left palm.
  • Nothing is going to happen to these cnuts, is it?

    Hugo Lowell
    @hugolowell
    Wow — Former Trump advisor Steve Bannon says on his War Room podcast he met with Trump and Giuliani the night before Jan. 6 to discuss how to “kill the Biden presidency”, a potential admission of sedition.
    6:25 pm · 23 Sep 2021
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,149

    Nothing is going to happen to these cnuts, is it?

    Hugo Lowell
    @hugolowell
    Wow — Former Trump advisor Steve Bannon says on his War Room podcast he met with Trump and Giuliani the night before Jan. 6 to discuss how to “kill the Biden presidency”, a potential admission of sedition.
    6:25 pm · 23 Sep 2021

    They might return to power, that's not nothing.

    But punishment? No.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
    Nothing to do with Brexit. I'm thinking more of the sort of people he has around around him. Patel, Dorries... their presence in government is largely about appeasing the far right. Certainly not for their administrative qualities or trustworthiness.
    Ah yes the far right are notorious for loving women of ethnic minority origin aren't they?

    I'm not keen on Patel but she's not far right, that's ridiculous.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,558

    Farooq said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
    Would you really bail out those small energy companies failing just now and have you costed it
    No, I would not. I agree with the government on letting them fail.
    I'm not endorsing or complaining about the policies I mentioned, just giving recent context to help position the government ideologically.
  • Starmer is a crap writer. But there is a but, IMO. That pamphlet is clearly signalling where he wants to take Labour's focus from here until the election: away from what matters most to party members and towards the primary concerns of regular voters.

    He has identified those concerns as being insecurity - in the workplace, in housing, on the streets, in the environment, etc; and inequality - the opportunities that were once available to someone with his background are no longer there. Those, I think, are the basis for a strong message and for a set of coherent policies.

    The message is this government has failed to deliver the security that people want and need; and it has failed to tackle the deep-seated inequalities that have developed in the UK over the last 30 years. The policies will be all about how Labour will change that.

    Did this require 14,000 words? Probably not. Is it the beginnings of something that could resonate? I think it could be. Is Starmer capable of delivering? Increasingly, that looks unlikely. But I don't think the Labour party is currently capable of allowing anyone to.

    I would very much like to be wrong.

    I've now read it, and I agree with that, though I'm a bit more optimistic about Starmer personally.
    You say he's a 'crap' writer - seems a bit harsh. It's certainly not glittering prose, but he doesn't write for a living. Seems to me to be perfectly competently written, rather than badly written.
    Oh, if you insist. Here's a teacher's view:
    (A teacher stands in a classroom, scuffed mortarboard on head. Lights flicker due to an electricity shortage)
    "So boys and girls, your task was to... Yes, yes, I know, Ms Gender, boys, girls, inters, bis, Sith lords and little furry creature from Zog..."

    (He scratches his head, wondering why he chose teaching)
    "As I was saying, your task was to write an essay on what you stand for. Messers Phillips and Carnaby, well done. I particularly like your use of metaphor on equality as it impacts ants, who, as we all know, have now been granted human rights. The rest of you, good efforts as well. Except ..."

    (He picks up two essays. One is so thick that it wore out two printers. The other is a piece of fag paper. He throw them onto the floor. The floor rocks as the heavy one hits; the fag paper floats down and rests insultingly on top.)
    "Master Starmer. I do appreciate you have a lot to say to the world, and you believe it earnestly. Many people do. But when your task is to write 250 words, scribing 11,500 is not acceptable. I'd also add that I noticed the 'Corbo smells' you wrote in the margin on the section about ... well just about every section. Fail."
    (A sour-looking boy sitting by himself in the corner of the room beside a Palestinian flag sobs)

    (A final sigh, as he fixes his weary gaze on a blonde boy with tousled hair.)
    "And you, Master Johnson. I finally managed to decipher the crayoned text. "I stand for fun!" was short, succinct and, I fear, true. But adding "Smithers stands for I nicked his chair," was just cruel. But at least your essay was short, and I was at school with your father (at least, we think he was your father). A+"
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
    Would you really bail out those small energy companies failing just now and have you costed it
    No, I would not. I agree with the government on letting them fail.
    I'm not endorsing or complaining about the policies I mentioned, just giving recent context to help position the government ideologically.
    So raising taxes while letting private capital lose money is something that only the right believes in is it? 🤔
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,006
    kle4 said:

    Part 2 of 3

    First mention of LDs, using legalistic language of ‘aiding and abetting’, and then many points about cuts.

    Already many references to Cameron – building up to the Boris bogeyman (currently referred to only as one of Cameron’s ‘two successors’) or because he wants to make people who might look back fondly on Cameron to rethink, as it was they left that Labour first lost?

    Not sure it is sensible to repeat all of the Tories’ slogans, sine some like them.

    Section 3 – Present
    Quote from Raheem Sterling.

    Still repeating the worst death toll in Europe line on Coronavirus – I just think it is a mistake, since by that measure France, Italy, Spain and Germany are right behind us and this makes us look not far off Germany when per capita we are much different.

    ‘The prime minister’ still, not Boris Johnson. Sensible all to try to flag up memories of breaches of lockdown rules, tory doners etc.

    Stats stats stats on the NHS.
    He’s right about national plans for adult social care.

    Interesting on Climate change that he accepts the government does thing something needs to be done, so is not accusing it of denialism, but that it lacks vision and ambition. Smarter than the Eco lobby.

    Several mentions of vision in this section – which is a strength if they can pitch a good one, as he’s right about government short termism.

    Now it is story time about two young people on different journeys of education and work. Not as amusing as a ‘imagine a world where x’ section in a past Green manifesto. But focusing on rise in renting, lack of opportunity

    Second use of pernicious

    Again pretty bold to talk about the years of Brexit ‘gridlock’.

    Accusing Tories of exploiting divisions and having ‘bizarre obsessions’. I share some of those obsessions perhaps, but it is a smart move to paint the tories, not entirely unfairly, of focusing on some minutiae instead of bigger issues.

    Is ‘multi headed hybra’ an oxymoron? Again tying Scottish nationalists to Conservatives, and how they have similar failures he says, both use culture to distract. I like it, but will Slab?

    He is a moron, that is why they are extinct in Scotland , they are out of touch London ponces.
  • murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Ha ha. They're really not.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,707

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
    Nothing to do with Brexit. I'm thinking more of the sort of people he has around around him. Patel, Dorries... their presence in government is largely about appeasing the far right. Certainly not for their administrative qualities or trustworthiness.
    Ah yes the far right are notorious for loving women of ethnic minority origin aren't they?

    I'm not keen on Patel but she's not far right, that's ridiculous.
    Patel is the type who would sink migrant boats on a whim. She's part of the hang him, flog them and send them back home brigade. It's got nothing to do with her skin colour - she's just a lunatic. Most people of her ethnic origin that I know have absolute contempt for her.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069
    edited September 2021

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
    Nothing to do with Brexit. I'm thinking more of the sort of people he has around around him. Patel, Dorries... their presence in government is largely about appeasing the far right. Certainly not for their administrative qualities or trustworthiness.
    Ah yes the far right are notorious for loving women of ethnic minority origin aren't they?

    I'm not keen on Patel but she's not far right, that's ridiculous.
    Blimey! What does it take to qualify as far-right in your books then?

    If Johnson's government is centre-left, your 'right' must be very thinly populated.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,923

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,006

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    So they are well and truly F****d if that is their best , a desperate lightweight.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
    Nothing to do with Brexit. I'm thinking more of the sort of people he has around around him. Patel, Dorries... their presence in government is largely about appeasing the far right. Certainly not for their administrative qualities or trustworthiness.
    I really do not want Patel in her role but she was absolutely right to obtain an injunction to stop the M25 activists from preventing people using the M25
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2021
    murali_s said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
    Nothing to do with Brexit. I'm thinking more of the sort of people he has around around him. Patel, Dorries... their presence in government is largely about appeasing the far right. Certainly not for their administrative qualities or trustworthiness.
    Ah yes the far right are notorious for loving women of ethnic minority origin aren't they?

    I'm not keen on Patel but she's not far right, that's ridiculous.
    Patel is the type who would sink migrant boats on a whim. She's part of the hang him, flog them and send them back home brigade. It's got nothing to do with her skin colour - she's just a lunatic. Most people of her ethnic origin that I know have absolute contempt for her.
    Oh really? She's been Home Secretary for twenty seven months and in that time the migrant boat numbers have increased to record levels never seen before - and quite rightly not a single one of them has been sank. Nobody has been hanged, nobody has been flogged and it doesn't seem like any more people are getting sent back as far as I can see either.

    So what are you justifying your opinion on other than pure hatred and bile?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,006
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    I know people are nostalgic about the past, but I didn't think that would apply to mumps, polio and rubella. I don't even know what the last one is!
    measles you silly person
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,558

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
    Nothing to do with Brexit. I'm thinking more of the sort of people he has around around him. Patel, Dorries... their presence in government is largely about appeasing the far right. Certainly not for their administrative qualities or trustworthiness.
    Ah yes the far right are notorious for loving women of ethnic minority origin aren't they?

    I'm not keen on Patel but she's not far right, that's ridiculous.
    Sorry, but your ethnicity doesn't decide your ideology. You get far right people who aren't white.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    My as well tbh, Starmer's sadly not working out.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,773

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069
    Foxy said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
    'Flame haired filly'?? tut-tut! But yes, she'd be an improvement.
  • I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,069

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
    Bless! How do define 'celebrity'?
  • Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    London is pretty much the most pro-Labour part of the country, apart from Wales.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,587

    kinabalu said:

    Ok, I've read the Foreword and it's excellent. Anybody saying otherwise either hasn't read it or is commenting in bad faith. It hits the right notes - in the right order - and it pushes the right buttons. In particular it stresses exactly what I would stress, viz:

    - The Tories have been in for ages and have failed. FAILED.
    - They're all talk and no action. Dirty talk it is too.
    - Covid exposed what an unequal country we are and what overstretched public services we have.
    - All of this due to Tory neglect and vandalism.
    - So many people in Britain feel insecure. INSECURE.
    - They deserve better. We all do quite frankly.
    - It's time for a change. Labour has changed. It's time for Labour.

    This bit, in particular, hits hard and cuts through:

    "Covid-19 has also exposed the many fragilities in the ways we live, work and are governed. Inequality of opportunity and a lack of security are not inevitable - they are a result of a decade of Tory government that stripped back the state and left our country’s foundations weakened when the virus struck.

    "Security" again, see? And "inequality" but carefully caveated with "of opportunity" so as not to frighten the skittish horses of Middle England. I also like the buzzphrase, the Contribution Society. Unlike the clear nonsense of Cameron's "Big Society" and Johnson's "Levelling Up" this one means something and you can easily imagine actual policies to prove that it does.

    It really is a terrific Foreword. Literally my only quibble - and it is a quibble - is with the following:

    "Our country is now at a crossroads. Down one path is the same old insecurity and lack of opportunity. But down the Labour one is something better: a society built on everyone’s contribution."

    That is not a "crossroads" (which has 3 options), it's a "fork in the road".

    But anyway, far as I'm concerned, just based on the Foreword, it's so far so good. More than good.

    On we go.

    Contribution Society? Is he heading to better more contribution based benefit system, which could (like I think the Dutch do), create a kind of security around the very precarious job market of modern capitalism.
    That's a good point but I don't think it's what he means. I think he means a society where people feel a sense of duty and community. Where they spend as much time on ways to put something of value in as they do on ways to extract value for themselves. It's a nod to, and derived from, Jack Kennedy's "ask not".
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,325
    edited September 2021

    Foxy said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
    'Flame haired filly'?? tut-tut! But yes, she'd be an improvement.
    Strangely quite a lot of male voters find either Rayner or Nandy attractive, in my experience. This is highly unusual for poliitcians, as discussed a few years ago here on PB, and the Tories' equivalent female-popular figures of Rory Stewart and Ivan Massow have long since departed now. A detail, but these details tend to matter in politics.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,006

    Farooq said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
    Would you really bail out those small energy companies failing just now and have you costed it
    They are not really energy companies, just brokers milking the system.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,773

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    London is pretty much the most pro-Labour part of the country, apart from Wales.
    Precisely why they need support elsewhere!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,504
    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    I know people are nostalgic about the past, but I didn't think that would apply to mumps, polio and rubella. I don't even know what the last one is!
    measles you silly person
    Errr...

    German measles, I believe.
  • Foxy said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
    Amazing that someone on the left would make such a comment
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,006

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Ha ha. They're really not.
    He is either a plant , a comedian or a mental case
  • Foxy said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
    Amazing that someone on the left would make such a comment
    Hopefully not, unless they were labouring under excessive self-consciousness.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,517

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Source?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,006
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    I know people are nostalgic about the past, but I didn't think that would apply to mumps, polio and rubella. I don't even know what the last one is!
    measles you silly person
    Errr...

    German measles, I believe.
    If you are anally retentive , Yes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,773

    Foxy said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
    'Flame haired filly'?? tut-tut! But yes, she'd be an improvement.
    I have always had a soft spot for strong, assertive women.

    But I like her drive, ambition and political nous too.
  • Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Ok, I've read the Foreword and it's excellent. Anybody saying otherwise either hasn't read it or is commenting in bad faith. It hits the right notes - in the right order - and it pushes the right buttons. In particular it stresses exactly what I would stress, viz:

    - The Tories have been in for ages and have failed. FAILED.
    - They're all talk and no action. Dirty talk it is too.
    - Covid exposed what an unequal country we are and what overstretched public services we have.
    - All of this due to Tory neglect and vandalism.
    - So many people in Britain feel insecure. INSECURE.
    - They deserve better. We all do quite frankly.
    - It's time for a change. Labour has changed. It's time for Labour.

    This bit, in particular, hits hard and cuts through:

    "Covid-19 has also exposed the many fragilities in the ways we live, work and are governed. Inequality of opportunity and a lack of security are not inevitable - they are a result of a decade of Tory government that stripped back the state and left our country’s foundations weakened when the virus struck.

    "Security" again, see? And "inequality" but carefully caveated with "of opportunity" so as not to frighten the skittish horses of Middle England. I also like the buzzphrase, the Contribution Society. Unlike the clear nonsense of Cameron's "Big Society" and Johnson's "Levelling Up" this one means something and you can easily imagine actual policies to prove that it does.

    It really is a terrific Foreword. Literally my only quibble - and it is a quibble - is with the following:

    "Our country is now at a crossroads. Down one path is the same old insecurity and lack of opportunity. But down the Labour one is something better: a society built on everyone’s contribution."

    That is not a "crossroads" (which has 3 options), it's a "fork in the road".

    But anyway, far as I'm concerned, just based on the Foreword, it's so far so good. More than good.

    On we go.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA


    Your best comic riff yet, or maybe your first? Anyway: VG
    I think it hits hard.

    It hits hard in the same way a dandelion floret might "hit" your shoulder on a mild day.
  • I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
    Bless! How do define 'celebrity'?
    Those multi millionaire, billionaire film stars, pop stars and footballers taking home £400,000 a week to begin with, but of course they will no doubt receive a pass as they are usually of the left
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 421
    kinabalu said:

    Ok I just read the foreword.

    Let’s just say that @kinabalu upthread should not give up the day job for literary criticism.

    It feels like a piece of ad copy that an ill-organised client group have smothered to death.

    I read it pretending I'm a floating apolitical voter somewhere in provincial England, no love for the Tories but I voted Tory last time because Corbyn scared me.

    And it worked for me. For that me, it worked. It made me feel good about the man Keir Starmer and it made me look forward to seeing some policies.

    This is how to assess it imo.
    I've also read it. It's short on slogans ("security and opportunities" is not exactly "get Brexit done"), and I didn't feel inspired by it, but it was an interesting read and I agreed with most of it.

    The main criticisms seem to be that it is banal, standing for nothing that everyone wouldn't agree with. That is not so. Admittedly, you have to read through a fair amount of accurate but obvious Tory-bashing to get there. I'll just pick one of the six topics (New Deal) to illustrate:

    "ensuring public bodies give more contracts to British firms both large and small and design contracts to ensure we spend more in this country. We would report on this annually, with public bodies required to explain how much they are buying from British businesses. All major infrastructure projects currently in the pipeline would be reviewed to ensure we maximise the use of British materials and firms" - Motherhood and apple pie this is not. Libertarians won't like it, and nor will some in the Labour party who will see it as pandering to Leave voters. For me, it avoids the current evil of free market fundamentalism without going too far towards protectionism.

    "It will ensure rights for all workers from day one, such as sick pay, parental leave, and the right to flexible working, reflecting the realities of the post-Covid world. It would ban dubious practices such as fire and rehire and stop firms exploiting loopholes to get out of giving employment rights to their workers" - Balancing the generally pro-business message, this is standing up to big business. It's also a brave thing to write given that some in Labour argue that the party itself is practising "fire and rehire" right now!

    "We would get more offshore wind turbines built, powering our homes with clean energy. We would increase the manufacturing of clean steel to build our schools, railways and hospitals." - Nobody's expecting costed policies at this stage, but this is something for people to disagree and some will (e.g. Britain currently imports most of its wind turbines, which arguably is fine, but Starmer thinks we should be a major manufacturer).

    The leadership need to distill these into something that voters will absorb, but that wasn't the goal of this document, so those criticising it for being long and boring are missing the point.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,978
    IshmaelZ said:

    Re Apple.

    I'm typing this on my (still perfectly functioning) 10 year old Macbook Air.

    In the previous 10 years I'd had to jettision three Windows PCs because they becmae totally unworkable due to uninvited junk and unrunnable OS upgrades.

    That, plus the simple interconnectivity of my Macbook, iMac, iPads, and iPhone, are the reasons I'm an Apple fan.

    Sinister tinge to the interconnectivity point: you will read any amount of accounts on mumsnet.com of wives being screwed over by husbands (mainly that way round) who were reading all the wife's iPhone messages on a connected ipad. I know of one really serious case in real life.
    I do recall one prolific male poster on this site, to whom that very issue (but the other way around, with her reading his messages), contributed to his divorce.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,558
    edited September 2021

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
    Would you really bail out those small energy companies failing just now and have you costed it
    No, I would not. I agree with the government on letting them fail.
    I'm not endorsing or complaining about the policies I mentioned, just giving recent context to help position the government ideologically.
    So raising taxes while letting private capital lose money is something that only the right believes in is it? 🤔
    I would say that the right has better instincts on letting failing businesses fail, yes.
    Tax rises, yes obviously a left idea in normal times but Boris's had has been forced. A centre-left government would not have NI as its first preference.
    You didn't say anything about benefit cuts, which I assume means you just agree it's not very left.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,773

    Foxy said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
    Amazing that someone on the left would make such a comment
    I have long extolled Angela's attributes, and she won the Deputy Leader at a canter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,149

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
    Bless! How do define 'celebrity'?
    Those multi millionaire, billionaire film stars, pop stars and footballers taking home £400,000 a week to begin with, but of course they will no doubt receive a pass as they are usually of the left
    I dont think that was Mr Pointer's, er, point. You've already just excluded plenty of less wealthy celebrities, its just not possible to target 'celebrities' precisely. John Curtice has celebrity in politics but most wouldn't think of him.
  • I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    And how much will that raise?

    It seems to be the typical Labour offering - goodies for the 99% but only the 1% pay. It's just not credible

    At least Boris has been more honest in saying that the social care/NHS money will have to paid for the wider pool of working people
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,325
    edited September 2021
    "It will ensure rights for all workers from day one, such as sick pay, parental leave, and the right to flexible working, reflecting the realities of the post-Covid world. It would ban dubious practices such as fire and rehire and stop firms exploiting loopholes to get out of giving employment rights to their workers" - Balancing the generally pro-business message, this is standing up to big business. It's also a brave thing to write given that some in Labour argue that the party itself is practising "fire and rehire" right now!"

    I agree this is one is the most striking things that, balanced with broadly more pro-business mood music than the Corbynites, makes up something genuinely new.

    He needs much more of these genuinely new left/right syntheses, though. That has to be the basis for his appeal, and for me, there's not enough of this kind of freshness in there.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,558

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
    Bless! How do define 'celebrity'?
    Those multi millionaire, billionaire film stars, pop stars and footballers taking home £400,000 a week to begin with, but of course they will no doubt receive a pass as they are usually of the left
    politics of envy
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,149
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
    Amazing that someone on the left would make such a comment
    I have long extolled Angela's attributes, and she won the Deputy Leader at a canter.
    At a canter? She's a horse to you now? Disgraceful. :)
  • kle4 said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
    Bless! How do define 'celebrity'?
    Those multi millionaire, billionaire film stars, pop stars and footballers taking home £400,000 a week to begin with, but of course they will no doubt receive a pass as they are usually of the left
    I dont think that was Mr Pointer's, er, point. You've already just excluded plenty of less wealthy celebrities, its just not possible to target 'celebrities' precisely. John Curtice has celebrity in politics but most wouldn't think of him.
    I am aware that it is not practical but their wealth needs heavily taxing
  • Farooq said:

    [snip] A centre-left government would not have NI as its first preference.
    [snip]

    Ahem. Gordon Brown would like a word.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,773
    malcolmg said:

    Farooq said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
    Would you really bail out those small energy companies failing just now and have you costed it
    They are not really energy companies, just brokers milking the system.
    Indeed, they are just speculators who took a gamble by not hedging their gas supplies. They produce nothing.
  • I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    I would be somewhat surprised by this as Streeting has just recovered from Kidney cancer and hasn't even been in the shadow cabinet
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,821
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Ms (Mr?) S, that was because the Labour Opposition was far left.

    The idea Johnson is hard right is laughable. He has no position other than self-interest.

    For which he has sometimes co-opted the far right.
    The charge doesn't stick (like Philip_T's broken phone), but there's also truth in it.
    There is absolutely no truth to it whatsoever.

    Only 🤡s who think Brexit is far right could think something so foolish.
    Nothing to do with Brexit. I'm thinking more of the sort of people he has around around him. Patel, Dorries... their presence in government is largely about appeasing the far right. Certainly not for their administrative qualities or trustworthiness.
    Ah yes the far right are notorious for loving women of ethnic minority origin aren't they?

    I'm not keen on Patel but she's not far right, that's ridiculous.
    Sorry, but your ethnicity doesn't decide your ideology. You get far right people who aren't white.
    Astonishing that should need saying.
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Omnium said:

    Aslan said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This is interesting IMO:

    "Owen Jones 🌹
    @OwenJones84
    I’ve been repeatedly briefed that some of Starmer’s current and former aides have given up on his prospects and are now pinning their hopes on Wes Streeting, who they hope can be made Labour leader via the electoral college"

    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1441025634440990726

    Are Labour really so biased towards Londom MPs that they have to resort to someone that comes across as soft and wet as Wes Streeting? He's hardly the sort of person you'd want to follow into battle, is he?
    Another London male labour leader is the last thing they need
    Where though in the country could a really good Labour leader come from?... my mind is a blank! :)
    Andy Burnham, Dan Jarvis and Lisa Nandy

    Though Andy Burnham probably the best of the three
    I see what you're doing here Big_G. Maximising the chances of a Tory win :smiley:
    Labour will only win from the centre
    The Tories won from the right / hard-right!

    Why can't Labour win from the centre-left?

    Winning from the centre is so last century!
    The Tories are governing from the centre-left.
    Letting energy firms fail, going ahead with the benefit cut, and raising regressive taxes are not the the policies of the centre left.
    Would you really bail out those small energy companies failing just now and have you costed it
    No, I would not. I agree with the government on letting them fail.
    I'm not endorsing or complaining about the policies I mentioned, just giving recent context to help position the government ideologically.
    So raising taxes while letting private capital lose money is something that only the right believes in is it? 🤔
    I would say that the right has better instincts on letting failing businesses fail, yes.
    Tax rises, yes obviously a left idea in normal times but Boris's had has been forced. A centre-left government would not have NI as its first preference.
    You didn't say anything about benefit cuts, which I assume means you just agree it's not very left.
    It may have better *instincts* but it has conspicuously failed to indulge them since, say, 2010.
  • Farooq said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
    Bless! How do define 'celebrity'?
    Those multi millionaire, billionaire film stars, pop stars and footballers taking home £400,000 a week to begin with, but of course they will no doubt receive a pass as they are usually of the left
    politics of envy
    Aren't all wealth taxes

    And I do not envy any of them
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,773
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    Wes Streeting is about to challenge SKS

    I expect Rayner will join in once Streeting announces
    Ooh, I do hope so. I am very green on the flame haired filly for next PM.
    Amazing that someone on the left would make such a comment
    I have long extolled Angela's attributes, and she won the Deputy Leader at a canter.
    At a canter? She's a horse to you now? Disgraceful. :)
    Indeed, my favourite!
  • Did he make it 11,500 words so it would be too long to carve into a stone? ;)

    (Wasn't Ed Stone good? Back when politics was fun, rather than the really odd times we're living through.)

    To be fair, it's difficult to get right. You want soundbites, but also substance behind those soundbites.
  • ISLE OF MAN General Election 2021- House of Keys

    Less than three hours until the polls close!
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 421
    edited September 2021


    She's been Home Secretary for twenty seven months and in that time the migrant boat numbers have increased to record levels never seen before - and quite rightly not a single one of them has been sank.

    You're setting quite a low bar there....

    EDIT: My bad, I see you were replying to a comment suggesting she would sink a boat.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,149
    Farooq said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
    Bless! How do define 'celebrity'?
    Those multi millionaire, billionaire film stars, pop stars and footballers taking home £400,000 a week to begin with, but of course they will no doubt receive a pass as they are usually of the left
    politics of envy
    Some say envy is an ugly emotion. Those people usually have enviable stuff :)
  • Farooq said:

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    It has its problems but a 95% tax on all celebrities including footballers would be a good start
    Bless! How do define 'celebrity'?
    Those multi millionaire, billionaire film stars, pop stars and footballers taking home £400,000 a week to begin with, but of course they will no doubt receive a pass as they are usually of the left
    politics of envy
    Footballers are presumably being singled out for punishment because some them caused Boris a bit of embarrassment over the summer.
  • Sandpit said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Re Apple.

    I'm typing this on my (still perfectly functioning) 10 year old Macbook Air.

    In the previous 10 years I'd had to jettision three Windows PCs because they becmae totally unworkable due to uninvited junk and unrunnable OS upgrades.

    That, plus the simple interconnectivity of my Macbook, iMac, iPads, and iPhone, are the reasons I'm an Apple fan.

    Sinister tinge to the interconnectivity point: you will read any amount of accounts on mumsnet.com of wives being screwed over by husbands (mainly that way round) who were reading all the wife's iPhone messages on a connected ipad. I know of one really serious case in real life.
    I do recall one prolific male poster on this site, to whom that very issue (but the other way around, with her reading his messages), contributed to his divorce.
    Did LadyG find out what Byronic was up to?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,978
    edited September 2021

    I had a look at Starmer's essay.

    It feels quite like the last Labour Government

    More police
    More hospital beds
    More teachers
    New IT systems
    Spend spend spend

    The question is how the hell do you pay for it all? We have had 2 big crises in the GFC and COVID. We also have the future challenges of social care and climate change.

    Our debt to GDP ratio is now around 100%. Taxes are going up to record levels.

    Not a lot on how Lab overcome their weaknesses on the economy and public spending

    Starmer needs to come out with a big plan on taxing wealth, making it clear that the 99% won't be affected. It's not that hard really.
    And how much will that raise?

    It seems to be the typical Labour offering - goodies for the 99% but only the 1% pay. It's just not credible

    At least Boris has been more honest in saying that the social care/NHS money will have to paid for the wider pool of working people
    If he wants to make the rich pay, then up the 40% income tax rate to 42% or 43%.

    The problem there, is that an awful lot of 40% taxpayers, especially in London, don’t think of themselves as rich.

    From memory, it’s fewer than 20% of taxpayers in that bracket.
This discussion has been closed.