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Keir has a net approval lead over Boris – but where it matters least – politicalbetting.com

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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    malcolmg said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    BigRich said:

    AlistairM said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    It's definitely a pattern. It is the Under 16 school kids which are driving it.



    If they are not spreading it to others then that is fine. These infections are giving the kids great immunity with the 12+ receiving their vaccine boosters soon.

    Half my daughter's Y8 class is out this week with Covid having picked it up from one girl last week. I suspect the rest, including my daughter, already had immunity from previous infection. Probably happening across the country. Only question from me is why it didn't happen when they first went back? Why the delay?
    Is there anything wrong with them? My son's friends who have had it (Year 7) have had a sniffle at worst. Most of them were entirely asymptomatic and only knew because the school insisted everyone be tested.
    Personally, I think we should scale down the mass testing of asymmetric kids, or maybe stop it all together. at this stage what is it achieving? kids are going to go on catching it, until, they have all (or nearly all) had it and we reach 'heard immunity' in kids. very few will get serially ill, but the mass testing and isolation only drags that out over a longer time, it does not stop it or significantly reduce the total number.

    Kids have had there education messed up enough over the last 19 months, taking an entirely aysumetomat kid out of school for yet another 2 weeks is not helping that. and again why is it better to drag this out for longer than needed.

    Yes, some times an adult, possibly an elderly or venerable adult will catch it form a kid, but that does not change by dragging it out over a longer pried, and given that we know the effectives of the vaccine wares off a bit over time, shorly it would be better to have that now, rather than in a few months time when the vaccines will have warn off even more.

    Also, I don't think that the testing is that expensive, but its not free and we have spend so much over the last 19 months, any saving now would be much apricated, as we look at tax rises, and speeding cuts.
    I'd go further, we should end all testing and tracing. If anyone wants a test that should be available but we should cease to encourage it etc

    The shield against the virus now should be the vaccine and other than that let it spread as it will. No more testing, no more distancing, no more masks, no more barriers. Anyone who hasn't been vaccinated that gets it, gets it. Anyone who has been vaccinated that gets it, gets it.

    Get back to normal now.
    I think that The Triumph of the Will is the way that the government wants to play it. By insisting on normality, it will be done.

    It doesn't work for hospitals though. No amount of pretence can create normality.
    You said in the past that a big issue was social distancing in the hospitals reducing capacity. Is that still happening or has capacity been restored back to normal.

    Scrapping all social distancing at hospitals etc to get capacity back to 100% (indeed higher if possible) should be an urgent priority.
    Yes, we still have to socially distance and wear masks at all times. This is national policy from the CMO and CNO.

    The biggest constraint though is staff depletion. This is a combination of vacancies, illness, maternity and redeployment to cover covid areas.
    If it were up to me national policy would be changed then and abolish all distancing and mask requirements (except where you'd wear one normally of course).
    Luckily I doubt you will get much further that the tea trolley in CCHQ
    You think this was penned by CCHQ? 🤔

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/09/08/why-im-quitting-the-conservative-party/
    Whoooooooooooosh, it was a gag
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Writing about the sex trade as if it has only just been invented is weird. I blame the decline in Classical Studies.

    Suggesting that it is 'totally normal' for young people to engage commercially in sex is false. The overwhelming majority don't.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    The southern half of the Midlands is basically a giant commuting area for London. The idea it's a uniquely insular part of the country is silly.

    The southern part refuses to accept they are in the Midlands!
    A friend of mine used to use the phrase 'a bit Northamptonshire' for something which was neither one thing nor the other; or a bit vague and indecisive.
    Exactly.

    For many years I was tortured by the question, “where do the Midlands actually begin?”

    Eventually I went with watersheds, which puts Gloucs in the Midlands, Oxon and Bucks in the Thames Valley, and Beds, Cambs and Northants in “East Anglia and some Flat Bits”.
    Isnt it where the Northern Line runs out?
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    The Optical Illusion Of Net Ratings

    "We asked a hundred people - "Who do you trust to buy a round for their friends in the pub, Boris Johnson or Sir Keir Starmer?" 42 said Boris, 24 Sir Keir, & the rest didn't know. They were asked who they thought would best organise a fun night out;. 42 said Boris, & 20 Sir Keir. In June 2020, another survey asked if the respondents thought either of the two "had personality" - Boris won by 34 points, 64 to 30. When asked again in September Boris increased his lead to 42, (67-25). The most recent Opinium poll asked whether the respondents found Boris or Sir Keir likeable - given that people would rather go for a night out with Boris, the choice they think has bags more personality of the two, it's not much of a surprise that he "got more likes" 43-38. So it would seem uncontroversial to say that Boris is the more likeable of the two men who want to be PM after the next GE. Unless...

    Unless, instead of basing the results on who people actually like, you decided to ask who they disliked as well, and subtracted one from the other. Using this method, Sir Keir suddenly becomes more likeable than the more liked Boris, braver than the man more people consider brave of the two, and a stronger leader than the leader he trails in terms of people's judgement of who is strong. (Opinium March 2020)"

    http://aboutasfarasdelgados.blogspot.com/2021/03/the-optical-illusion-of-net-ratings.html

    In any case, in the latest polls taken by each pollster, the one highlighted in the header is unique in having Sir Keir in the lead, either in terms of net ratings or Gross Positives


    Boris Boris Lead Sir Keir
    GP Net GP Net GP Net
    Averages 36.3 -8.4 9.4 5.3 26.9 -13.7
    Opinium 35 -13 5 -7 30 -6
    Panelbase 33 -9 10 7 23 -16
    Survation 38 -6 9 3 29 -9
    R&W 38 -4 14 14 24 -18
    IPSOS 28 -18 8 6 20 -24
    Delta 47 -2 11 11 36 -13
    ComRes 35 -7 9 3 26 -10

    Opinium is the only pollster with a media client that carries out regular approval ratings.
    It is obvious you favour Opinium over the rest. Personally I would rather go with the average of all pollsters than hang my hat on just the one, and if it was the one that confirmed my bias, I'd worry I was kidding myself
    You cannot have an average here when they ask different questions. Some are on favourability, others are on satisfaction or well/badly.
    Well put it this way - on the questions asked that fall under roughly the same umbrella, Boris leads on Gross Positives with Opinium, You Gov, ComRes, IPSOS MORI, Survation, Redfield & Wilton, DeltaPoll, & Panelbase

    Sir Keir leads with none

    Boris leads on Net Satisfaction with You Gov, ComRes, IPSOS MORI, Survation, Redfield & Wilton, DeltaPoll, & Panelbase

    Sir Keir leads with Opinium

    So my take is, generally Boris is better thought of, whether it be Gross Pos or Net Satisfaction. You are free to throw all your chips in with Opinium, I just disagree it’s the best way to analyse it

    We used to hear a lot about 'golden rules'.

    Wasn't one of them something along the lines of an outlier is a poll you don't like?

    In which case YouGov, ComRes, Ipsos MORI, Survation, Redfield & Wilton, DeltaPoll & Panelbase can all be outliers.
  • stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    Yes, having become a little involved with local politics over the past few years, I can see that you'd have to be either incredibly thick-skinned or borderline insane to want to be a politician, given the utter disdain and casual abuse they get from people who haven't a clue. Our local candidate has just thrown in the towel after years of campaigning. She's a good, honest, smart woman, but in the end the hate was just too for her. We do indeed get the politicians we deserve.
  • So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721
  • So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    Can't the Government arrange to collate the media's hot air to make the wind turbines start working again?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,789

    So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    The idea that CO2 used in food preparation and preservation is bad is completely ridiculous. The net saving from food not rotting on shelves or in transit must be massive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    Farooq said:

    In response to an NYT article entitled "The sharp US pivot to Asia is throwing Europe off balance", the CEO of an EU think take replied: "Do not worry, Ursula von der Leyen will do like she did with the vaccines."

    https://twitter.com/karel_lannoo/status/1439122367167582208?s=20

    A good excuse to check in on our neighbours
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-vaccination-doses-per-capita?time=2021-02-01..latest&country=GBR~OWID_WRL~BEL~DNK~FRA~NLD~IRL
    It's been a good recovery. Doesn't really speak to UvdL's previous childishness.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    MaxPB said:

    What's in helping Macron for Modi?

    Raising the cost for the US to get Indian support.
    India has been a big purchaser of French planes, historically. (Like a lot of countries, they aren't that keen on the strings that come attached to purchasing second tier US jets.)

    Plus India won't get much credit for being the thirteenth person on the AUUKUS bus, but will get a lot for sticking by France (and French purchases of arms) when the chips are down.
  • MaxPB said:

    So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    The idea that CO2 used in food preparation and preservation is bad is completely ridiculous. The net saving from food not rotting on shelves or in transit must be massive.
    I think Sam Coates isn't being entirely serious...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098

    Macron: Thank you for reaffirming the importance of our Strategic Partnership. India and France are strongly committed to making the Indo-Pacific an area of cooperation and shared values. We will continue to build on this.
    https://twitter.com/emmanuelmacron/status/1440346174234394633

    Sounds like the beginning of something. Japan next to flesh it out and provide the all important acronym. China then looks on in bemusement as the Pacific becomes the battleground, above and below the waves, for Aukus v Frinja skirmishes. They can't get a look in.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    I agree completely, but I can't see how to change it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.
    It is a serious concern for all ex-Tories. What the fuck is the alternative? I don't want to vote Tory, at the same time all the other parties are ridiculous.
    Well said. Its depressing.
    Nobody's stopping the three of you setting up your own party.
    As an ex-Tory I like winning. The UK is not a place where new parties can win.
    I wonder whether you'll have a party preference in Switzerland? The FDP/Liberals might be a good fit - there's this nice 2D chart of the parties, showing them left/right and liberal/conservative in social terms - the FDP are moderately right-wing (and close to business) but without hangups about gay marriage and suchlike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Switzerland#:~:text=Federal and cantonal parliaments Abbr., Petra Gössi 13 more rows
  • eekeek Posts: 28,366
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Writing about the sex trade as if it has only just been invented is weird. I blame the decline in Classical Studies.

    Suggesting that it is 'totally normal' for young people to engage commercially in sex is false. The overwhelming majority don't.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    It's totally normal for a minority of people and has been for years.

    I remember stories of students working as sex workers back in the early 90s...
  • What's in helping Macron for Modi?

    Despite membership of the Quad, India prizes it’s position as “non aligned” and also has ambitions for strategic leadership in its own right.

    It does not want to be America’s satrap and therefore looks to others (ie France) who feel the same way.

    U.K., Australia and to some extent Japan are happy to do whatever the US wants.
  • In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?
  • So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    Presumably the effect of subsidising CO2 production by fertiliser producers will be to increase gas demand, thus pushing up the wholesale price of gas even more and maybe driving another utility company into the ground. Such a company would surely have grounds for a legal case against the government?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,789

    MaxPB said:

    So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    The idea that CO2 used in food preparation and preservation is bad is completely ridiculous. The net saving from food not rotting on shelves or in transit must be massive.
    I think Sam Coates isn't being entirely serious...
    You never know with self important journalists. I'd wager that he is trying to make a gotcha point of some sort.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,789

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.
    It is a serious concern for all ex-Tories. What the fuck is the alternative? I don't want to vote Tory, at the same time all the other parties are ridiculous.
    Well said. Its depressing.
    Nobody's stopping the three of you setting up your own party.
    As an ex-Tory I like winning. The UK is not a place where new parties can win.
    I wonder whether you'll have a party preference in Switzerland? The FDP/Liberals might be a good fit - there's this nice 2D chart of the parties, showing them left/right and liberal/conservative in social terms - the FDP are moderately right-wing (and close to business) but without hangups about gay marriage and suchlike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Switzerland#:~:text=Federal and cantonal parliaments Abbr., Petra Gössi 13 more rows
    My wife votes for the FDP, I'm not sure yet but will probably go down that same route. Feels like Cameroonism.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,027
    edited September 2021

    MaxPB said:

    So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    The idea that CO2 used in food preparation and preservation is bad is completely ridiculous. The net saving from food not rotting on shelves or in transit must be massive.
    I think Sam Coates isn't being entirely serious...
    I respectively disagree

    This is a Sky journalist

    It is quite an extraordinarily stupid thing to say

    They are both correct
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,071
    eek said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Writing about the sex trade as if it has only just been invented is weird. I blame the decline in Classical Studies.

    Suggesting that it is 'totally normal' for young people to engage commercially in sex is false. The overwhelming majority don't.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    It's totally normal for a minority of people and has been for years.

    I remember stories of students working as sex workers back in the early 90s...
    Surely theres a difference between minorities? Is a tiny minority the same as some kind of minority large enough to be a noteworthy trend?
  • I see Casino Royale’s tanty with the Tories is over, now that Ed Davey is on record as protesting that he is not like Boris.

    Casino is apparently so disgusted he has no option but to vote Boris after all.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,274
    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    Hard to believe they could have found someone as stupid and deluded as their last disaster but they have.
    They also have an absolute corker in Scotland as well.
    Good evening Malc! :D
    Hello GIN, long time no speak o:)
    It has been a while hasn't it?

    Hope you're well :D
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174
    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Schoolkids rise no longer being hidden by slowly declining adults I think.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    MaxPB said:

    So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    The idea that CO2 used in food preparation and preservation is bad is completely ridiculous. The net saving from food not rotting on shelves or in transit must be massive.
    A lot of the problem is that CO2 is being produced in places where it isn't being captured, and we don't have the infrastructure to move it around. There is - AFAIAA - no CO2 pipeline network in the UK. Either the CO2 user is on the doorstep of the CO2 producer. Or it's shuttled around (at enormous expense) by truck.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,293
    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    It's strange to me how many people on here care passionately about politics & then apparently don't vote because they think all candidates are equally awful/don't meet their unrealistic standards of perfection.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.
    It is a serious concern for all ex-Tories. What the fuck is the alternative? I don't want to vote Tory, at the same time all the other parties are ridiculous.
    Well said. Its depressing.
    Nobody's stopping the three of you setting up your own party.
    As an ex-Tory I like winning. The UK is not a place where new parties can win.
    I wonder whether you'll have a party preference in Switzerland? The FDP/Liberals might be a good fit - there's this nice 2D chart of the parties, showing them left/right and liberal/conservative in social terms - the FDP are moderately right-wing (and close to business) but without hangups about gay marriage and suchlike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Switzerland#:~:text=Federal and cantonal parliaments Abbr., Petra Gössi 13 more rows
    My wife votes for the FDP, I'm not sure yet but will probably go down that same route. Feels like Cameroonism.
    Switzerland's use of referenda also makes the role of parties different: they are often just there to implement decisions that have already been made. Plus, it's a highly federal structure.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,789
    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Schoolkids rise no longer being hidden by slowly declining adults I think.
    I'm a slowly declining adult.
  • rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    The idea that CO2 used in food preparation and preservation is bad is completely ridiculous. The net saving from food not rotting on shelves or in transit must be massive.
    A lot of the problem is that CO2 is being produced in places where it isn't being captured, and we don't have the infrastructure to move it around. There is - AFAIAA - no CO2 pipeline network in the UK. Either the CO2 user is on the doorstep of the CO2 producer. Or it's shuttled around (at enormous expense) by truck.
    It seems like there'd be a logical synergy to invest in infrastructure to produce (via cleaning or whatever) CO2 at or very near to where it is captured and lay a pipe between the two.
  • MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    Good. Let it burn out within that community before the winter.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    I’d suggest look at the ages of the cases. It’s the rugrats causing the rise, all ages over 16 falling. And the best thing, anecdotes suggest most of the youngsters who are catching it either have no symptoms or it’s like mild hay fever. Give it a few more weeks and we are done.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Inevitable consequence of stark wealth inequality.
    Yes. Wealth is power. The exploitation is both ways here, superficially, but it isn't really. This is the rich using money to corrupt and demean and trivialize those who aren't.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    Makes sense to want them all getting it as rapidly as possible before predicted vaccine effects wear off.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,789
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.
    It is a serious concern for all ex-Tories. What the fuck is the alternative? I don't want to vote Tory, at the same time all the other parties are ridiculous.
    Well said. Its depressing.
    Nobody's stopping the three of you setting up your own party.
    As an ex-Tory I like winning. The UK is not a place where new parties can win.
    I wonder whether you'll have a party preference in Switzerland? The FDP/Liberals might be a good fit - there's this nice 2D chart of the parties, showing them left/right and liberal/conservative in social terms - the FDP are moderately right-wing (and close to business) but without hangups about gay marriage and suchlike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Switzerland#:~:text=Federal and cantonal parliaments Abbr., Petra Gössi 13 more rows
    My wife votes for the FDP, I'm not sure yet but will probably go down that same route. Feels like Cameroonism.
    Switzerland's use of referenda also makes the role of parties different: they are often just there to implement decisions that have already been made. Plus, it's a highly federal structure.
    Yeah and I also don't think I'll get to vote for quite some time so it's not a huge concern.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    My mate and his 8yo son both got it last week. Both ok now though
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    My mate and his 8yo son both got it last week. Both ok now though
    Its simple - COVID is down among the vaccinated. It's up among the unvaccinated groups - children

    image
  • kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Inevitable consequence of stark wealth inequality.
    Yes. Wealth is power. The exploitation is both ways here, superficially, but it isn't really. This is the rich using money to corrupt and demean and trivialize those who aren't.
    So long as they're all consenting adults - why should anyone care?

    Unless there's coercion or worse involved, the world's oldest profession isn't exploitation.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    edited September 2021

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    You could try to pick the bones out of the Met Office long range forecast at the bottom of their home page. https://www.metoffice.gov.uk

    Given their tendency to slightly over-egg unsettled prospects (imo), I'd say there's not much sign of windy conditions across the majority of the country for the next month.

    Much better prospects of regular tides though (sigh).
  • alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    Makes sense to want them all getting it as rapidly as possible before predicted vaccine effects wear off.
    Indeed. 12 months ago it made sense to want to prevent infections because we were waiting for vaccines and there was the potential that an infection postponed would be an infection avoided.

    Now there's nothing coming down the track, its futility now to be pratting around with masks or distancing etc - especially over the summer. If someone is going to get infected then the sooner the better, get it over and done with before the inevitable winter NHS crisis.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Foxy said:

    BigRich said:

    AlistairM said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    It's definitely a pattern. It is the Under 16 school kids which are driving it.



    If they are not spreading it to others then that is fine. These infections are giving the kids great immunity with the 12+ receiving their vaccine boosters soon.

    Half my daughter's Y8 class is out this week with Covid having picked it up from one girl last week. I suspect the rest, including my daughter, already had immunity from previous infection. Probably happening across the country. Only question from me is why it didn't happen when they first went back? Why the delay?
    Is there anything wrong with them? My son's friends who have had it (Year 7) have had a sniffle at worst. Most of them were entirely asymptomatic and only knew because the school insisted everyone be tested.
    Personally, I think we should scale down the mass testing of asymmetric kids, or maybe stop it all together. at this stage what is it achieving? kids are going to go on catching it, until, they have all (or nearly all) had it and we reach 'heard immunity' in kids. very few will get serially ill, but the mass testing and isolation only drags that out over a longer time, it does not stop it or significantly reduce the total number.

    Kids have had there education messed up enough over the last 19 months, taking an entirely aysumetomat kid out of school for yet another 2 weeks is not helping that. and again why is it better to drag this out for longer than needed.

    Yes, some times an adult, possibly an elderly or venerable adult will catch it form a kid, but that does not change by dragging it out over a longer pried, and given that we know the effectives of the vaccine wares off a bit over time, shorly it would be better to have that now, rather than in a few months time when the vaccines will have warn off even more.

    Also, I don't think that the testing is that expensive, but its not free and we have spend so much over the last 19 months, any saving now would be much apricated, as we look at tax rises, and speeding cuts.
    I'd go further, we should end all testing and tracing. If anyone wants a test that should be available but we should cease to encourage it etc

    The shield against the virus now should be the vaccine and other than that let it spread as it will. No more testing, no more distancing, no more masks, no more barriers. Anyone who hasn't been vaccinated that gets it, gets it. Anyone who has been vaccinated that gets it, gets it.

    Get back to normal now.
    I think that The Triumph of the Will is the way that the government wants to play it. By insisting on normality, it will be done.

    It doesn't work for hospitals though. No amount of pretence can create normality.
    I am back in Bergamo, enjoying dinner in a square, almost exactly a year since my last visit. The good news is that the sense of shock that was palpable last year, with memorials and flowers and window posters, has subsided, although talking to people there is fear as to what the summer starting to slip away might bring. Observance of precautions is still good, as you'd expect, although this year I'd say the Germans are more consistently methodical about it.

    Unlike the Alps, which last week was 'happy times are here again' awash with Northern European tourists, Bergamo feels no busier than last year. My hotel owner says that while they are getting short notice requests from Swiss, German and Austrian tourists a few hours drive away wanting short stays to enjoy the end of the summer, the longer stay Brits and American big spenders are absent, and the Italian business top teams who used to stay for a few nights of eating and drinking when there was a deal to be done have been replaced by zoom and maybe one guy who is sent to sign the papers. She says many local businesses are looking for ways to cut costs to align with reduced demand, on top of which hospitality businesses have lost staff who left to get jobs as delivery drivers and suchlike, exacerbated here by much lower government support for closed businesses and people off work than we enjoyed. When I said that at one point in the middle of the crisis our government was paying people to eat out, she was speechless
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited September 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    Its interesting because the Scotland schools explosion in August absolutely leaked up the age ranges.

    Two countries, two seemingly very different summers of Covid.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.
    It is a serious concern for all ex-Tories. What the fuck is the alternative? I don't want to vote Tory, at the same time all the other parties are ridiculous.
    Well said. Its depressing.
    Nobody's stopping the three of you setting up your own party.
    The most recent political party registered with the Electoral Commission is The Pensioner's Party.

    Seems redundant.

    http://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/English/Registrations/PP12853
    We need someone to split the Tory vote...could be someone's cunning plan?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,889
    The net approval comparisons between Starmer and Boris confirm that Boris is likely to win a majority or most seats in England even if not across the UK
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,653
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.
    It is a serious concern for all ex-Tories. What the fuck is the alternative? I don't want to vote Tory, at the same time all the other parties are ridiculous.
    Well said. Its depressing.
    Nobody's stopping the three of you setting up your own party.
    As an ex-Tory I like winning. The UK is not a place where new parties can win.
    I wonder whether you'll have a party preference in Switzerland? The FDP/Liberals might be a good fit - there's this nice 2D chart of the parties, showing them left/right and liberal/conservative in social terms - the FDP are moderately right-wing (and close to business) but without hangups about gay marriage and suchlike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Switzerland#:~:text=Federal and cantonal parliaments Abbr., Petra Gössi 13 more rows
    My wife votes for the FDP, I'm not sure yet but will probably go down that same route. Feels like Cameroonism.
    Switzerland's use of referenda also makes the role of parties different: they are often just there to implement decisions that have already been made. Plus, it's a highly federal structure.
    Yeah and I also don't think I'll get to vote for quite some time so it's not a huge concern.
    I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that it doesn't make a lot of difference overall which way the country votes.

    We've had Tory governments for 28 of the last 40 years and yet next to nothing that the Tories stood for in 1981 stands intact now.

    Increasingly I believe governments follow rather than lead.
  • Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    One clear reality emerging from this US trip - the UK isn’t getting a trade deal any time soon.

    Talks aren’t happening. UK privately accepts no deal pre-2022 midterms (when Dems could lose Senate)

    PM today didn’t even say we’d have one by 2024 election…8yrs after Brexit vote.

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1440324084290654224

    Good. I said long before the Brexit vote we didn't want a trade deal with the US. Why would we when we already have a big trade surplus with them and any deal is bound to include arbitration terms that are weighted heavily in their favour?
    Some trade deals sound good but only work for those who don't understand the compromises a trade deal actually require.
    Are you, like Tyndall, from the Midlands by any chance?

    Mercantilism seems endemic there.
    I was born and raised in the Midlands
    Which bit ?

    And how did you become a Newcastle fan :D ?!
    Solihull - but I’ve lived on Tyneside for 11 years.

    My Dad is from Northumberland so didn’t give me a choice, unfortunately.
    When I worked in Solihull a Geordie colleague insisted on moving back north when his wife became pregnant. He couldn't bear the idea that their child would develop a Brummie accent!
    When I moved from Scotland to Birmingham I took the letter from my mother to the Deputy Head, he looked at it, shook his head and said "Well, if you must you must, but whatever you do - don't get the accent!"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Jane Austen wrote several books on a similar theme.
    Oh? I don't recall the ladies in TV adaptations throwing aside their reticules and Spencer jackets, taking off their long Regency dresses, and extricating themselves from their stays [edit!] or corsets before they are even down to chemise level. Even if the stockings remained. But it would probably take most of the time between commercial breaks.
  • Lisa Nandy has just posted a good thread which effectively acts as an overview of Labour’s current foreign policy position.

    Among other things, it “welcomes AUKUS”.

    https://twitter.com/lisanandy/status/1440370315800969217?s=21

    Unlike Keir she appears to be able to communicate with concrete nouns.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    I think there might be an element of the new Tory refuseniks looking to give themselves permission to vote Tory again ?

    And tbf to Casino, when he goes all epithet, he usually regrets it shortly thereafter.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,058
    I thought the Brumie accent is all the rage now because of Peaky Blinders?!
  • That high?

    Ian Blackford Approval Rating in Scotland (18 Sept):

    Approve: 25% (-2)
    Disapprove: 34% (+1)
    Net: -9% (-3)

    Changes +/- 4-5 Aug


    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1440360543273975815?s=20
  • Nigelb said:

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    I think there might be an element of the new Tory refuseniks looking to give themselves permission to vote Tory again ?

    And tbf to Casino, when he goes all epithet, he usually regrets it shortly thereafter.
    The PB Tories worked themselves into a frenzy yesterday because apparently Daisy Cooper promotes use of the word “chestfeeding”.

    The problem is I can’t find any evidence of this online, and the only Google result points back to PB…
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    edited September 2021

    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Inevitable consequence of stark wealth inequality.
    Yes. Wealth is power. The exploitation is both ways here, superficially, but it isn't really. This is the rich using money to corrupt and demean and trivialize those who aren't.
    So long as they're all consenting adults - why should anyone care?

    Unless there's coercion or worse involved, the world's oldest profession isn't exploitation.
    Things don't require overt coercion to be exploitation. That's a general truth, not just about sex work or "sugar daddydom". I'm sure you don't need me to provide examples.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    I think you might have disinherited the numbers,

    In the 10-14 age group 768 per 100,000 people have tested positive - over the last week, so that 110 per day or 0.11% a day.

    Now its probably a bit hirer than that, not every kid is tested every day and as has already been mention most kids are ether totally asymptomatic or very milled symptoms, so very easy to miss if you do not test.

    For what its worth, in many ways its a pity its not 1% a day or it would burn out very quickly.
  • Surely this should be the key measure going forward:

    In hospital numbers down 13% on last Tuesday. Another week of that (which is possible based on case rates in older groups to now) puts England comfortably under 5000 for first since end of July.

    Question is what happens next with current case rise (predominantly young atm)


    https://twitter.com/ThatRyanChap/status/1440333337835425800?s=20
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392
    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    I assume I’m missing the sarcasm. Piers is just another one of the long range guess crowd, happy to throw out predictions left right and centre and hope to get lucky. Predict a cold winter ahead everyNovember and one year in ten you hit the jackpot, and when you do make sure you tell everyone. Usually happy to ramp weather for the tabloids. See also Nathan Rao.
  • Farooq said:

    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    The absolute fucking state of this:
    https://leftfootforward.org/2013/09/boris-climate-sceptic/
    That was BC.

    Before Carrie.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    Surely this should be the key measure going forward:

    In hospital numbers down 13% on last Tuesday. Another week of that (which is possible based on case rates in older groups to now) puts England comfortably under 5000 for first since end of July.

    Question is what happens next with current case rise (predominantly young atm)


    https://twitter.com/ThatRyanChap/status/1440333337835425800?s=20

    Yup....

    image
    image
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    GIN1138 said:

    malcolmg said:

    GIN1138 said:

    malcolmg said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    Hard to believe they could have found someone as stupid and deluded as their last disaster but they have.
    They also have an absolute corker in Scotland as well.
    Good evening Malc! :D
    Hello GIN, long time no speak o:)
    It has been a while hasn't it?

    Hope you're well :D
    Gin, yes all well , hope same for you
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213
    BigRich said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    I think you might have disinherited the numbers,

    In the 10-14 age group 768 per 100,000 people have tested positive - over the last week, so that 110 per day or 0.11% a day.

    Now its probably a bit hirer than that, not every kid is tested every day and as has already been mention most kids are ether totally asymptomatic or very milled symptoms, so very easy to miss if you do not test.

    For what its worth, in many ways its a pity its not 1% a day or it would burn out very quickly.
    per 100K

    image
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    I think there might be an element of the new Tory refuseniks looking to give themselves permission to vote Tory again ?

    And tbf to Casino, when he goes all epithet, he usually regrets it shortly thereafter.
    No, I don't think either Starmer or Davey can take those votes to the bank.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    The absolute fucking state of this:
    https://leftfootforward.org/2013/09/boris-climate-sceptic/
    That was BC.

    Before Carrie.
    So NutNut is the sane one...
    On this particular topic, maybe so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    What's in helping Macron for Modi?

    Raising the cost for the US to get Indian support.
    India has been a big purchaser of French planes, historically. (Like a lot of countries, they aren't that keen on the strings that come attached to purchasing second tier US jets.)

    Plus India won't get much credit for being the thirteenth person on the AUUKUS bus, but will get a lot for sticking by France (and French purchases of arms) when the chips are down.
    Their newest attack submarine is French designed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalvari-class_submarine_(2015)
  • Nigelb said:

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    I think there might be an element of the new Tory refuseniks looking to give themselves permission to vote Tory again ?

    And tbf to Casino, when he goes all epithet, he usually regrets it shortly thereafter.
    The PB Tories worked themselves into a frenzy yesterday because apparently Daisy Cooper promotes use of the word “chestfeeding”.

    The problem is I can’t find any evidence of this online, and the only Google result points back to PB…
    I noticed a chat board with the word chestfeeding in one post and on the same page an advert about a new tv programme that Daisy May Cooper was appearing in.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098

    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    I assume I’m missing the sarcasm. Piers is just another one of the long range guess crowd, happy to throw out predictions left right and centre and hope to get lucky. Predict a cold winter ahead everyNovember and one year in ten you hit the jackpot, and when you do make sure you tell everyone. Usually happy to ramp weather for the tabloids. See also Nathan Rao.
    A tried & tested way of making a splash in the City. Keep predicting a crash until it happens.
  • stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    You're a Lib Dem loyalist, so you just can't or won't see it, but there's no doubt Ed Davey is a tosspot.

    I don't like his Wokeness, his attitude to gender self-identification, his europhilia, and I've never liked him personally. He's a classroom snitch who makes things needlessly antagonistic and personal.

    I did like David Laws, Jeremy Browne, Steve Webb and Nick Clegg and there are plenty other liberal orange-bookers I might vote for but him?

    No.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492
    Alistair said:

    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    Its interesting because the Scotland schools explosion in August absolutely leaked up the age ranges.

    Two countries, two seemingly very different summers of Covid.
    But, no:

    The 'Scottish school explosion' did not happen, at lest not in schools, based on the low number of kids in Scotland who tested positive at that time.

    There was an overall incres led by young adults, which happened a week after the nightclubs where opened,

    Given the time lag between a change till people testing positive, and the age that was first/most affected, this IMO was the national reopening not schools restarting.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    I assume I’m missing the sarcasm. Piers is just another one of the long range guess crowd, happy to throw out predictions left right and centre and hope to get lucky. Predict a cold winter ahead everyNovember and one year in ten you hit the jackpot, and when you do make sure you tell everyone. Usually happy to ramp weather for the tabloids. See also Nathan Rao.
    A tried & tested way of making a splash in the City. Keep predicting a crash until it happens.
    I take a break from following the markets when I am travelling, but I glimpsed today and it looks like this month they are well down?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited September 2021

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    You're a Lib Dem loyalist, so you just can't or won't see it, but there's no doubt Ed Davey is a tosspot.

    I don't like his Wokeness, his attitude to gender self-identification, his europhilia, and I've never liked him personally. He's a classroom snitch who makes things needlessly antagonistic and personal.

    I did like David Laws, Jeremy Browne, Steve Webb and Nick Clegg and there are plenty other liberal orange-bookers I might vote for but him?

    No.
    How convenient for you that none of them are standing.

    I guess it’s another tick for the face-eating leopard party, aka the “Burn the National Trust Now” campaign.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    I assume I’m missing the sarcasm. Piers is just another one of the long range guess crowd, happy to throw out predictions left right and centre and hope to get lucky. Predict a cold winter ahead everyNovember and one year in ten you hit the jackpot, and when you do make sure you tell everyone. Usually happy to ramp weather for the tabloids. See also Nathan Rao.
    A tried & tested way of making a splash in the City. Keep predicting a crash until it happens.
    I take a break from following the markets when I am travelling, but I glimpsed today and it looks like this month they are well down?
    Yes, off a fair bit over the last few days.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    I think there might be an element of the new Tory refuseniks looking to give themselves permission to vote Tory again ?

    And tbf to Casino, when he goes all epithet, he usually regrets it shortly thereafter.
    The PB Tories worked themselves into a frenzy yesterday because apparently Daisy Cooper promotes use of the word “chestfeeding”.

    The problem is I can’t find any evidence of this online, and the only Google result points back to PB…
    I noticed a chat board with the word chestfeeding in one post and on the same page an advert about a new tv programme that Daisy May Cooper was appearing in.
    What more evidence do you need? She's a witch - burn her!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Inevitable consequence of stark wealth inequality.
    Yes. Wealth is power. The exploitation is both ways here, superficially, but it isn't really. This is the rich using money to corrupt and demean and trivialize those who aren't.
    So long as they're all consenting adults - why should anyone care?

    Unless there's coercion or worse involved, the world's oldest profession isn't exploitation.
    Things don't require overt coercion to be exploitation. That's a general truth, not just about sex work or "sugar daddydom". I'm sure you don't need me to provide examples.
    "It is a truth universally acknowledged."
  • So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    It's deliberately conflating two slightly different things for journalistic effect but events of this week do go to show-up how utterly barking XR demands are for all fossil fuel use to cease by 2025.

    Society would collapse.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,061

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    Luckily for the LibDems, no-one will notice, but Ed Davey sounds as deluded as his predecessor, whose name everyone has forgotten:

    "I’m not the same as Boris Johnson: I never will be, I never have been, and I’m going to work my butt off until he’s out of No 10.”

    I mean, who on earth ever accused Ed Davey of being the same as Boris Johnson?

    https://twitter.com/NewStatesman/status/1440348883238875145

    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.
    It is a serious concern for all ex-Tories. What the fuck is the alternative? I don't want to vote Tory, at the same time all the other parties are ridiculous.
    Well said. Its depressing.
    Nobody's stopping the three of you setting up your own party.
    As an ex-Tory I like winning. The UK is not a place where new parties can win.
    I wonder whether you'll have a party preference in Switzerland? The FDP/Liberals might be a good fit - there's this nice 2D chart of the parties, showing them left/right and liberal/conservative in social terms - the FDP are moderately right-wing (and close to business) but without hangups about gay marriage and suchlike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Switzerland#:~:text=Federal and cantonal parliaments Abbr., Petra Gössi 13 more rows
    My wife votes for the FDP, I'm not sure yet but will probably go down that same route. Feels like Cameroonism.
    Switzerland's use of referenda also makes the role of parties different: they are often just there to implement decisions that have already been made. Plus, it's a highly federal structure.
    Yeah and I also don't think I'll get to vote for quite some time so it's not a huge concern.
    I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that it doesn't make a lot of difference overall which way the country votes.

    We've had Tory governments for 28 of the last 40 years and yet next to nothing that the Tories stood for in 1981 stands intact now.

    Increasingly I believe governments follow rather than lead.
    I guess we did follow the US into Iraq, but does that count ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    You're a Lib Dem loyalist, so you just can't or won't see it, but there's no doubt Ed Davey is a tosspot.

    I don't like his Wokeness, his attitude to gender self-identification, his europhilia, and I've never liked him personally. He's a classroom snitch who makes things needlessly antagonistic and personal.

    I did like David Laws, Jeremy Browne, Steve Webb and Nick Clegg and there are plenty other liberal orange-bookers I might vote for but him?

    No.
    How convenient for you that none of them are standing.

    I guess it’s another tick for the face-eating leopard party, aka the “Burn the National Trust Now” campaign.
    Big G with an inhuman face?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    You're a Lib Dem loyalist, so you just can't or won't see it, but there's no doubt Ed Davey is a tosspot.

    I don't like his Wokeness, his attitude to gender self-identification, his europhilia, and I've never liked him personally. He's a classroom snitch who makes things needlessly antagonistic and personal.

    I did like David Laws, Jeremy Browne, Steve Webb and Nick Clegg and there are plenty other liberal orange-bookers I might vote for but him?

    No.
    How convenient for you that none of them are standing.

    I guess it’s another tick for the face-eating leopard party, aka the “Burn the National Trust Now” campaign.
    Big G with an inhuman face?
    I think not. He does support the RNLI very emphatically.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    IanB2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    I assume I’m missing the sarcasm. Piers is just another one of the long range guess crowd, happy to throw out predictions left right and centre and hope to get lucky. Predict a cold winter ahead everyNovember and one year in ten you hit the jackpot, and when you do make sure you tell everyone. Usually happy to ramp weather for the tabloids. See also Nathan Rao.
    A tried & tested way of making a splash in the City. Keep predicting a crash until it happens.
    I take a break from following the markets when I am travelling, but I glimpsed today and it looks like this month they are well down?
    Not that much on the FTSE. Mostly the banks and miners exposed to China. Right to be a bit wary there
  • rkrkrk said:

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    It's strange to me how many people on here care passionately about politics & then apparently don't vote because they think all candidates are equally awful/don't meet their unrealistic standards of perfection.
    @stodge is enthusiastically partisan in attacking other parties and people that support them - often reflexively, a bit like @malcolmg, even when he knows the poster well and is aware of the complexity and nuance of their views - and also very defensive when it comes to the Liberal Democrats.

    Common thread? He's hyper partisan.
  • Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    The absolute fucking state of this:
    https://leftfootforward.org/2013/09/boris-climate-sceptic/
    That was BC.

    Before Carrie.
    So NutNut is the sane one...
    It's not new though. Harold Wilson was in thrall to Marcia Faulkner.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,098
    dixiedean said:


    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Farooq said:

    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    Zoe Strimpel in Unherd.

    https://unherd.com/2021/09/why-women-are-seeking-sugar-daddies/

    "During a recent trip to the US, I had lunch with a young man from New York, who told me glumly that many of his peers had spent the summer swanning around Europe while he stayed put in America. They were all flaunting it on Instagram, of course, but none as aggressively as a clutch of young women in their early 20s, who had spent time in the most expensive spots: the Amalfi Coast, Porto Cervo, Capri. I peered at his phone and saw images of the girls draped over each other in terrace restaurants, on the prows of boats, laid along tree branches in thong bikinis, glowing with the gold-dust of fine living.

    They were either still in college or freshly out of it. But the reason they, rather than the young man, were able to go yachting off Sardinia while sipping Dom Pérignon was because rich older men ­had hired them to come on a luxury holiday with them. The job — look hot, be nice, and be ready to accommodate more without crying assault — is called sugaring. It is — though sugar daddies or babies might not admit it — sex work. My friend betrayed no sense of surprise at the arrangement; such things had, he explained, become totally normal in his age group."

    Inevitable consequence of stark wealth inequality.
    Yes. Wealth is power. The exploitation is both ways here, superficially, but it isn't really. This is the rich using money to corrupt and demean and trivialize those who aren't.
    So long as they're all consenting adults - why should anyone care?

    Unless there's coercion or worse involved, the world's oldest profession isn't exploitation.
    Things don't require overt coercion to be exploitation. That's a general truth, not just about sex work or "sugar daddydom". I'm sure you don't need me to provide examples.
    "It is a truth universally acknowledged."
    Yep, but I'm talking to Philip so I have to go with "general" not "universal" with my truths until he agrees, which when it's me saying it he usually won't.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Wind power should be back up to seasonal norms shortly. It’s already at nearly 6kw and should head towards 10 by the weekend. Peak winter generation gets up to touching 17gw during Atlantic storms. In summer anticyclones it can be 1gw or lower.

    https://grid.energynumbers.info/

    For good wind generation we need windy weather in the North West, North Sea and Scotland. We’ve had a few gales up the channel this summer that blew over a few tents but didn’t coincide with where the turbines are.

    Temperatures still quite high though so peak demand remains suppressed. One issue is Nuclear has declined steadily from about 8gw to 5 over the last few years.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,789

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    You're a Lib Dem loyalist, so you just can't or won't see it, but there's no doubt Ed Davey is a tosspot.

    I don't like his Wokeness, his attitude to gender self-identification, his europhilia, and I've never liked him personally. He's a classroom snitch who makes things needlessly antagonistic and personal.

    I did like David Laws, Jeremy Browne, Steve Webb and Nick Clegg and there are plenty other liberal orange-bookers I might vote for but him?

    No.
    How convenient for you that none of them are standing.

    I guess it’s another tick for the face-eating leopard party, aka the “Burn the National Trust Now” campaign.
    Nah, the Lib Dems have become infected with Woke. Labour can't seem to make their minds up about it and the Tories aren't. Ultimately if you have a red line over self-ID men going into female only spaces (which a lot of small c conservative voters do) then what are the options?

    Ed Davey just tried to blame the Lib Dems kicking out a feminist from their party on the Tories. It's completely ridiculous. They're a joke.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    So tonight government policy is to subsidise CO2 production, restart coal power production and hope for an increase in gas supply

    But by COP, the government message will be to reduce CO2, stop coal production and reduce gas consumption to save the world

    Any questions?


    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1440363588900638721

    It's deliberately conflating two slightly different things for journalistic effect but events of this week do go to show-up how utterly barking XR demands are for all fossil fuel use to cease by 2025.

    Society would collapse.
    CO2 production moving to atmospheric distillation is already on the roadmaps - by product of LOX, LN production
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    You're a Lib Dem loyalist, so you just can't or won't see it, but there's no doubt Ed Davey is a tosspot.

    I don't like his Wokeness, his attitude to gender self-identification, his europhilia, and I've never liked him personally. He's a classroom snitch who makes things needlessly antagonistic and personal.

    I did like David Laws, Jeremy Browne, Steve Webb and Nick Clegg and there are plenty other liberal orange-bookers I might vote for but him?

    No.
    I'm going to stay away form the masturbation teamed insults, but otherwise I agree with you.

    the LD had a good selection of Orange Book Liberals, you mention some I would probably add Danny Alexander and Nick Harvey to your list. having now been repulsed by Boris Im looking for a new home and would like to tern to the LDs, but he seem to be calculating how to be even less appealing at least to me.

    At a time when SKS is consolidang the Woke/PC side of the that argument, and the party in governments is shedding its liberal base, the tactical opportunities seem obvious.
  • stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    You're a Lib Dem loyalist, so you just can't or won't see it, but there's no doubt Ed Davey is a tosspot.

    I don't like his Wokeness, his attitude to gender self-identification, his europhilia, and I've never liked him personally. He's a classroom snitch who makes things needlessly antagonistic and personal.

    I did like David Laws, Jeremy Browne, Steve Webb and Nick Clegg and there are plenty other liberal orange-bookers I might vote for but him?

    No.
    How convenient for you that none of them are standing.

    I guess it’s another tick for the face-eating leopard party, aka the “Burn the National Trust Now” campaign.
    I see you have dickhead-mode switched on tonight.

    Maybe shutdown and reboot your system?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    What's in helping Macron for Modi?

    Raising the cost for the US to get Indian support.
    India has been a big purchaser of French planes, historically. (Like a lot of countries, they aren't that keen on the strings that come attached to purchasing second tier US jets.)

    Plus India won't get much credit for being the thirteenth person on the AUUKUS bus, but will get a lot for sticking by France (and French purchases of arms) when the chips are down.
    Their newest attack submarine is French designed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalvari-class_submarine_(2015)
    The reality is that the French provide a very useful service to World: modern Western weapons, that probably aren't as good as US ones, but where the purchaser doesn't worry that the US government will stop the supply of parts and maintenance if the political winds change.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129

    Surely this should be the key measure going forward:

    In hospital numbers down 13% on last Tuesday. Another week of that (which is possible based on case rates in older groups to now) puts England comfortably under 5000 for first since end of July.

    Question is what happens next with current case rise (predominantly young atm)


    https://twitter.com/ThatRyanChap/status/1440333337835425800?s=20

    @Chris???

    Where are you???

    Come to mention it... @Heathener, where are you too???
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:


    A timely reminder that whilst I might go on strike from voting Conservative I'm not going to vote for that tosspot.

    I'm genuinely curious - Davey says something you don't like and he's automatically a "tosspot".

    In all honesty, for a forum which occasionally talks about politics, the widespread contempt for almost all politicians is perhaps predictable but it's not sensible.

    Who or what would make a good politician in your eyes? Inasmuch as no politician would run the country directly for your benefit (or mine), what is it you are looking for in a political figure?

    Do you want a "strong" leader - lots of people enjoy being told what to do after all - or just someone who does the things you want?

    I've dabbled in politics in my time - it's hard and often thankless work. You set off with noble intentions around public service and "wanting to do good" and it just wears you down - not the system but the ingratitude. Yet if, at any point, you sound off and reference that, out comes the abuse and vitriol.

    It's often said a country gets the politicians it deserves - the more I see that, both here and round the world, the more accurate I think it is.
    You're a Lib Dem loyalist, so you just can't or won't see it, but there's no doubt Ed Davey is a tosspot.

    I don't like his Wokeness, his attitude to gender self-identification, his europhilia, and I've never liked him personally. He's a classroom snitch who makes things needlessly antagonistic and personal.

    I did like David Laws, Jeremy Browne, Steve Webb and Nick Clegg and there are plenty other liberal orange-bookers I might vote for but him?

    No.
    How convenient for you that none of them are standing.

    I guess it’s another tick for the face-eating leopard party, aka the “Burn the National Trust Now” campaign.
    Nah, the Lib Dems have become infected with Woke. Labour can't seem to make their minds up about it and the Tories aren't. Ultimately if you have a red line over self-ID men going into female only spaces (which a lot of small c conservative voters do) then what are the options?

    Ed Davey just tried to blame the Lib Dems kicking out a feminist from their party on the Tories. It's completely ridiculous. They're a joke.
    Yes it has been obvious for some time that PB Tories will swallow increased taxes on young workers to featherbed pensioners as long as they are chucked a bit of red meat from the culture war. That is the Johnson strategy for 2024.
  • Scott Morrison greets European Council President Charles Michel in New York and says he’s looking forward to discussing EU doing more in Indo-Pacific.

    Michel replies: “Thankyou for your message but as you know for us transparency and loyalty are fundamental principles”


    https://twitter.com/bevanshields/status/1440331037096116225
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206
    BigRich said:

    Cases in England up by about 25% today compared to same day last week, But, looking at the age breakdown:

    5-9 rising (fast and from a reasonably high start)
    10-14 rising (fast and form a high start)

    0-4 falling (but very slowly)

    All other age brackets falling.

    If this continues, which I think it might in the short to medium term, we should still have falling hospitalisation and death.

    Eventually enough kids will have antibodies after having caught it, but we don't know when that will be or how many still need to catch it. I do remember a week or so ago, somebody on hear saying that in the 10-14 age group that 50% had antibody's back in may and 70% at the start of September, which do seem credible. I cant fined verification of these numbers anywhere so if you know where they came form I would love a link?

    I think it was me who mentioned the numbers for antibodies in kids. I'd seen a study (probably a pre-print) linked on twitter where they had got sterioprevalance numbers for I think 12-15s. The numbers looked fairly plausible, we know from the ONS that 53% of 16 year olds had antibodies in July (ie before we started jabbing them en-mass), so it's reasonably likely that the 12-15s were in a similar place. From memory 70% was the high estimate, with the bottom end being something like 55%.

    Unfortunately, twitter being twitter, can I find it again now... (it was linked from somewhere else, possibly even here - I don't really do twitter except following links to interesting looking threads).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,789
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    What's in helping Macron for Modi?

    Raising the cost for the US to get Indian support.
    India has been a big purchaser of French planes, historically. (Like a lot of countries, they aren't that keen on the strings that come attached to purchasing second tier US jets.)

    Plus India won't get much credit for being the thirteenth person on the AUUKUS bus, but will get a lot for sticking by France (and French purchases of arms) when the chips are down.
    Their newest attack submarine is French designed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalvari-class_submarine_(2015)
    The reality is that the French provide a very useful service to World: modern Western weapons, that probably aren't as good as US ones, but where the purchaser doesn't worry that the US government will stop the supply of parts and maintenance if the political winds change.
    That's a really good insight. I guess from the UK (and now Australian) perspective the chances of any US government cutting us off is so remote that it doesn't enter our consciousness. From a not-UK perspective it probably does figure on contracts for defence equipment. Especially a nation like India which has previously and currently purchases Russian kit.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028

    Scott Morrison greets European Council President Charles Michel in New York and says he’s looking forward to discussing EU doing more in Indo-Pacific.

    Michel replies: “Thankyou for your message but as you know for us transparency and loyalty are fundamental principles”


    https://twitter.com/bevanshields/status/1440331037096116225

    Do you think we’ll ever see an EU that acts effectively as one? Lots of different priorities involved.. can’t see it myself
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,033
    kinabalu said:

    BigRich said:

    In all seriousness are there any reasonable forecasts on when we should expect wind levels to pick back up to normal? Or is it just a case of wait and see?

    weird as this may sound Piears Corbin, the brother of the former leaser of the labour party and anti lockdown protester, started a company called 'weather action', which makes such predictions, which I understand have a track record of being very accurate.

    http://www.weatheraction.com/
    I assume I’m missing the sarcasm. Piers is just another one of the long range guess crowd, happy to throw out predictions left right and centre and hope to get lucky. Predict a cold winter ahead everyNovember and one year in ten you hit the jackpot, and when you do make sure you tell everyone. Usually happy to ramp weather for the tabloids. See also Nathan Rao.
    A tried & tested way of making a splash in the City. Keep predicting a crash until it happens.
    The Ambrose Evans-Pritchard approach...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,129

    Scott Morrison greets European Council President Charles Michel in New York and says he’s looking forward to discussing EU doing more in Indo-Pacific.

    Michel replies: “Thankyou for your message but as you know for us transparency and loyalty are fundamental principles”


    https://twitter.com/bevanshields/status/1440331037096116225

    Do you think we’ll ever see an EU that acts effectively as one? Lots of different priorities involved.. can’t see it myself
    No. Because there are dramatically different priorities within the EU.

    Remember the EU even struggled for unanimity in the depths of the GFC and Eurozone crises, where it was pretty clear what the end game was gong to be.
  • theProletheProle Posts: 1,206
    MaxPB said:

    Alistair said:

    31,564 cases, 203 deaths.

    5k up in England again week on week (~15-20%). Starting to look like a little bit of a hint of a pattern, 3 days on the bounce now.

    What the heck is up with England's numbers. I practically declared victory over Covid last week and now the numbers are making me look a fool.

    Tomorrow will be important given how Wednesday normally signals a step change in numbers.
    Under 15s are all getting it because there's no bubbles. The rates for those age groups is massive something like 8% of them have got it over the last couple of weeks and we're almost up to 1% per day catching it. We need to watch out for leakage into older age groups but so far the vaccines seem to be holding back that particular tide.
    At 1% a day from current levels of immunity, it should be pretty much over in that age range in about a month.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,871


    @stodge is enthusiastically partisan in attacking other parties and people that support them - often reflexively, a bit like @malcolmg, even when he knows the poster well and is aware of the complexity and nuance of their views - and also very defensive when it comes to the Liberal Democrats.

    Common thread? He's hyper partisan.

    I'm a supporter of the Liberal Democrats, I used to be a member, I'm not any more.

    As for "enthusiastically attacking other parties" - well, why not? Should the Conservative Party get a free pass because it's the Party of Government? If anything, they should be more strongly held to scrutiny and account - I'd also point out I have occasionally supported some of the things the Johnson Government has done - the vaccination rollout has been a success, no question.

    I do complexity and nuance - I'm not obsessed, like you, with "Woke" and whether anybody measures up to your ludicrous expectations of what it is not to be "Woke". In truth, it's of marginal relevance to 99% of the population set against all the other things but if that's the only measure that matters for you, so be it.

    Am I defensive? I don't like the parties' view being misrepresented and I'm happy to challenge some of the lazier and more predictable comments. Did Davey get it wrong at the weekend? You clearly think gender identification is a big issue - for some it is, for me it's not. I think he was unwise to make such an issue of it - I'd have said the country has far more significant problems and challenges. The party ties itself in a knot trying to be all things to all people if I'm being honest.

    Do I attack Labour? Back in the early days of this place, I often found common cause with the Conservatives of that time attacking the centralisation and authoritarianism of Blair/Brown and of Labour in general. I want to hear what Starmer has to offer before I pass judgement - I think that's reasonable.
This discussion has been closed.