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Is EdSec Gavin going to be a victim in the re-shuffle? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    eek said:

    Cicero said:

    New research just published in the International Economic Review.

    The decline in sterling due to Brexit raised consumer prices 2.9%, costing the average household £870 a year.

    https://twitter.com/thom_sampson/status/1437317032391872514?s=21

    So the average household spends £30k on consumer items per year ?

    It also boosted wealth creators and led to a drop in the trade deficit.

    So I suppose it depends on who you have sympathy with - wealth creators or wealth consumers.
    Brexit “boosted wealth creators”.

    LOL.

    You’ve never met a wealth creator before, have you?
    I work in manufacturing.

    So yes I have.
    Of course you do.
    Why would you doubt that ?

    I've mentioned it many times over the years and its not an uncommon sector to work in for middle aged blokes in Yorkshire.

    Several other PBers work in manufacturing as well.
    That's probably why UK productivity is so low - manufacturers spending too much time on PB. :)
    One of the known issues for U.K. productivity is poor management capability compared to OECD peers.
    The problem is largely that management is a skill that people are supposed to find lying around in the street or something. Most MBAs don't seem to teach useful skills in actual management. Cutting costs in a way that won't blow back on you until you escape to the next job is a moronic, but common trait.
    The Uk has several structural problems:

    1) low productivity, which derives from a variety of other issues, including, but not limited to, poor management, low skills, low investment, short term capital management, weak infrastructure.
    2) Planning policy combined with very concentrated land ownership which is a major contributor to expensive, low quality housing, often in the wrong place. It is a disadvantage that the UK is, compared to say France, quite densely populated, but the cost differential per Km of high speed rail, for example, should not be of the order of 20x more
    3) Financial system offers little to no support to SMEs, and availablity of start up capital from banks is zero.
    4) Entrepreneurship is increasingly tied up in red tape and there are several tax and other disincentives to self employment.
    5) Personal debt levels is at crisis levels, even small interest rate rises could trigger collapse, Government debt is a real problem.
    6) Major issues in health and social care- much discussed here
    7) Internationally weak school age education levels- PISA rankings are mediocre, even while elite Universities are generally good.

    The problem is that these long term problems have not been addressed for decades and now the combination of Covid and Brexit is set to deliver a serious inflation shock.

    BoE is forecasting 4% inflation, Q1/2 but that is based on no rise in food prices and falling Utility bills (but already we are seeing 40% gas and electicity rises being signalled for next month) and that means a £300-400 average hit per household. Meanwhile the Ni increase costs an average of 250, meanwhile Brexit red tape and shortages could see 10-15% food inflation. So we are not looking at 4% but more like 7%. Also note that Bailey is not regarded in the financial markets as a particularly heavyweight figure- too close to the government- and so his policies will not get a clear run. He is being set up to be the fall guy, but it will be too late, by the time he is writing his letters, then there will be a full blown Sterling crisis on us. The BoE need to tighten in line with the Fed and that means that any Covid recovery will be dead by mid year and the Uk could be facing a real return to the 70s: Stagflation.

    In the end "its the economy stupid". So Im sure other people here laughed a little when Johnson said he wanted to be in power longer than Thatcher. Well, The political consequences of the inflation/interest shock will be severe and I would be bearing this in mind in any betting over the next 12-18 months.
    Excellent, excellent post.

    Should be a thread header.

    I am not quite as gloomy as you in terms of predictions, but your main points are totally bang-on.

    I would add that UC is being cut against this backdrop, too.
    I can foresee a large increase in food banks over the next few months especially late October.
    It is entertaining and depressing in equal measure when new Tory MPs in red wall areas ignore food banks as if they don't exist and there are no problems for their constituents. And even worse when they pay attention and start claiming credit for them - "there weren't all these food banks under Labour" was one line uttered.

    Its clearly hard for some commentators to accept just how broken the economy is.
    Food banks are simultaneously one of the most wonderful and most depressing things about the past decade in this country.
    I would just say wonderful. Its charity and the idea that charity is depressing is absurd.

    The idea that nobody ever had issues in the past is a nonsense, the only thing is that the support the food banks offer were never there in the past.
    The idea that there is still a need for charity so people eat properly is absurd and obscene. Charity’s good for raising money for a dog’s home. The fact that we need charities to feed people, clothe people and raise money for hospitals and the like is a sad indictment of how selfish we are as a species and how screwed out priorities are.

    Because good people will contribute again and again and selfish bastards never do.

    You won’t agree with any of that, I know.

    Not that it’ll ever change.
    Bollocks. People have always had the possibility of falling on hard times - sometimes due to gambling, sometimes due to job losses, sometimes due to drugs, sometimes due to unexpected bills. Sometimes for issues that are their responsibility, sometimes for very bad luck.

    Prior to 2010 one of the most common adverts on TV was for Wonga "payday" loans. So why were people feeling the need to turn to Wonga prior to 2010 and why weren't foodbanks available instead?

    The fact that we have charities able to help people if they fall on hard times, instead of Wonga, is an undeniably good thing and shows how far we have come in building a Big Society.
    Before that there were pawnbrokers too and doorstep money lending for short term loans both legit and non legit.

    There were also Social Fund Crisis Loans available from the Jobcentre. People normally said they needed to feed their children, but it was noticeable that the demand for them rose sharply just before Bank Holidays.
  • Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,988
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    New research just published in the International Economic Review.

    The decline in sterling due to Brexit raised consumer prices 2.9%, costing the average household £870 a year.

    https://twitter.com/thom_sampson/status/1437317032391872514?s=21

    🤦‍♂️

    And yet the Governor of the Bank of England has had to write "please explain" letters six times to explain why CPI was too low since the referendum: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/inflationary-targets

    Only one letter to explain why inflation was too high and even then it was only because it exceeded bounds by just 0.1% and immediately came back to within bounds.
    Take it up with the academics.

    Who were focused on the relative change, and it’s impact on consumers - not whether the Bank of England breached inflation targets. 🤦‍♂️
    The relative change aiming to suit their agenda it seems as our problem in recent years has been inflation is too low. If they're saying that problem would have been even worse without Brexit then thank goodness we had Brexit eh? 🤦‍♂️
    What they are saying is that Brexit has cost the average household £870 a year*, and I note you do not disagree but simply believe it is not a problem.

    *Attributable to depreciation alone, never mind the other costs.
    It's 63 pages long with another 7 page appendix of assumptions - so you need time to read all of it.

    My first pick up is the assumptions use West Texas crude as the oil price which wouldn't be my go to option for European crude and even then they are missing data for 2018 which they have claimed to extrapolate.


    You are welcome to post a full response in the “Journal of Brexit Studies” aka the Daily Express.

    I believe all submissions are thoroughly peer-reviewed.

    By Laurence Fox and Lord “Beefy” Botham.
    Hang on it's an economic paper on which I've already (and merely) questioned a single assumption.

    But if the basis of that assumption is wrong how many others have similar flaws.

    The key premise - that the Brexit vote triggered a sterling depreciation - is uncontroversial.

    That depreciation might lead to an increase in consumer prices also seems - on the face of it - straightforward, but requires much more substantiation, which is what the paper attempts to do.

    It’s quite funny watching the Brexiters insist that no, the Emperor is dressed in the finest silk.
    Currency depreciates - prices of imports rise. That's hardly news - and we know that from just watching the currency markets.

    If you then look at the actual figures a better question would be why if Sterling depreciated by 8-10% did prices only increase by 2.9% and not something like the 6% you would expect in that circumstance. Who / what absorbed the rest of the change in import prices.
    Read the report - 29% of household spending is in directly/indirectly imported materials and goods. It is also worth noting that due to the higher share of housing costs in household budgets, London was less affected by this inflation.
  • Aslan said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Javid doesn't want a "papers please" culture of checks.

    Unless you are trying to vote, of course.
    Or get money out of the bank. Or travel internationally. Or other serious activities where proving your identity is important.
    Does drinking a vodka redbull with a Jaegerbomb class as a serious activity where proving your identity is important?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    Aslan said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Javid doesn't want a "papers please" culture of checks.

    Unless you are trying to vote, of course.
    Or get money out of the bank. Or travel internationally. Or other serious activities where proving your identity is important.
    Does drinking a vodka redbull with a Jaegerbomb class as a serious activity where proving your identity is important?
    Yes - to ensure your identity is recorded in the National Database Of People Who Shouldn't Be Allowed To Drink Alcohol.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522
    Farooq said:

    With my friends who weren't born in the UK, if I banged on as much about it as the media and twatterati do, i think i would find myself uninvited pretty quickly.....

    I recently had to fill in a questionnaire about the ethnicity of my children.

    Utterly depressing, I was tempted to fill in the box marked other as 'Melting pot of many civilisations and culture.'

    Apparently it is essential to capture their ethnicity and the social class of their parents.
    For class did you write "None"?
    One used to have to enter "race" on US visa applications. A well-known (white) British journalist was refused a visa after putting "human".
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    According to the Guardian there has been a real risk of the NHS being overwhelmed for the past 20 years (well certainly since 2010 for some reason).

    A chorus of pro-lockdown papers showing pictures of trolleys in corridors will thereby tilt policy accordingly.
  • Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,366
    sarissa said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    New research just published in the International Economic Review.

    The decline in sterling due to Brexit raised consumer prices 2.9%, costing the average household £870 a year.

    https://twitter.com/thom_sampson/status/1437317032391872514?s=21

    🤦‍♂️

    And yet the Governor of the Bank of England has had to write "please explain" letters six times to explain why CPI was too low since the referendum: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/inflationary-targets

    Only one letter to explain why inflation was too high and even then it was only because it exceeded bounds by just 0.1% and immediately came back to within bounds.
    Take it up with the academics.

    Who were focused on the relative change, and it’s impact on consumers - not whether the Bank of England breached inflation targets. 🤦‍♂️
    The relative change aiming to suit their agenda it seems as our problem in recent years has been inflation is too low. If they're saying that problem would have been even worse without Brexit then thank goodness we had Brexit eh? 🤦‍♂️
    What they are saying is that Brexit has cost the average household £870 a year*, and I note you do not disagree but simply believe it is not a problem.

    *Attributable to depreciation alone, never mind the other costs.
    It's 63 pages long with another 7 page appendix of assumptions - so you need time to read all of it.

    My first pick up is the assumptions use West Texas crude as the oil price which wouldn't be my go to option for European crude and even then they are missing data for 2018 which they have claimed to extrapolate.


    You are welcome to post a full response in the “Journal of Brexit Studies” aka the Daily Express.

    I believe all submissions are thoroughly peer-reviewed.

    By Laurence Fox and Lord “Beefy” Botham.
    Hang on it's an economic paper on which I've already (and merely) questioned a single assumption.

    But if the basis of that assumption is wrong how many others have similar flaws.

    The key premise - that the Brexit vote triggered a sterling depreciation - is uncontroversial.

    That depreciation might lead to an increase in consumer prices also seems - on the face of it - straightforward, but requires much more substantiation, which is what the paper attempts to do.

    It’s quite funny watching the Brexiters insist that no, the Emperor is dressed in the finest silk.
    Currency depreciates - prices of imports rise. That's hardly news - and we know that from just watching the currency markets.

    If you then look at the actual figures a better question would be why if Sterling depreciated by 8-10% did prices only increase by 2.9% and not something like the 6% you would expect in that circumstance. Who / what absorbed the rest of the change in import prices.
    Read the report - 29% of household spending is in directly/indirectly imported materials and goods. It is also worth noting that due to the higher share of housing costs in household budgets, London was less affected by this inflation.
    I did - see my comments below regarding it's use of Texas Crude when we don't use it in the UK and the fact that at the time there was little correlation between the price of Texas Crude and Brent.

    I suspect all the report does is show that the cost of Brexit is reflected in the inflation rate at the time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,789
    TOPPING said:

    Friday tube update: ram packed. Fewer masks than I've seen for some time. I'd say 65%.

    Edit: did not go to Greggs for lunch or dinner.

    You're already hoping it's Friday? Long week ahead of you mate.
  • Selebian said:



    Heh, lol for my gullibility :smiley:

    The original isn't much saner, mind (assuming that version is genuine)
    https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/08/21/of-all-the-weird-things-in-this-liz-truss-picture-the-framed-dog-photo-is-the-weirdest/


    Original (from Truss's twitter)
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECZ02mUWkAAf7R0?format=jpg&name=medium

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    Friday tube update: ram packed. Fewer masks than I've seen for some time. I'd say 65%.

    Edit: did not go to Greggs for lunch or dinner.

    You're already hoping it's Friday? Long week ahead of you mate.
    LOL you're not kidding. Then again, I do hit each Friday thinking DAMN it's been a long week.

    Moreso than pre-lockdown but perhaps I'm imagining it. For all the problems of WFH it is imo/experience a more intense working environment.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Is anyone IRL really “pro-lockdown” anymore? I only hear this constant sabre-rattling on PB. Most normal people seem to be getting on with their lives. I was in town on Saturday night: the theatre was full and Soho was absolutely jumping. Like the pandemic never happened. It was wonderful to see.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    Farooq said:

    With my friends who weren't born in the UK, if I banged on as much about it as the media and twatterati do, i think i would find myself uninvited pretty quickly.....

    I recently had to fill in a questionnaire about the ethnicity of my children.

    Utterly depressing, I was tempted to fill in the box marked other as 'Melting pot of many civilisations and culture.'

    Apparently it is essential to capture their ethnicity and the social class of their parents.
    For class did you write "None"?
    One used to have to enter "race" on US visa applications. A well-known (white) British journalist was refused a visa after putting "human".
    One of my daughters, when asked to fill in a form like that, included a chunk of the family tree and a detailed statement of her heritage, in handwriting that an ant would read as small, in the margin.

    For some reason I was very proud.
  • Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,366
    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    According to the Guardian there has been a real risk of the NHS being overwhelmed for the past 20 years (well certainly since 2010 for some reason).

    A chorus of pro-lockdown papers showing pictures of trolleys in corridors will thereby tilt policy accordingly.
    If what we hear from Foxy is true (and there is little reason not to believe him) his hospital (which we can assume is not unique so is similar to others) already has issues and it's early September.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952

    Farooq said:

    With my friends who weren't born in the UK, if I banged on as much about it as the media and twatterati do, i think i would find myself uninvited pretty quickly.....

    I recently had to fill in a questionnaire about the ethnicity of my children.

    Utterly depressing, I was tempted to fill in the box marked other as 'Melting pot of many civilisations and culture.'

    Apparently it is essential to capture their ethnicity and the social class of their parents.
    For class did you write "None"?
    One used to have to enter "race" on US visa applications. A well-known (white) British journalist was refused a visa after putting "human".
    One of my daughters, when asked to fill in a form like that, included a chunk of the family tree and a detailed statement of her heritage, in handwriting that an ant would read as small, in the margin.

    For some reason I was very proud.
    All the way back to her/your Romanian great-great-great-grandparents?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Farooq said:

    With my friends who weren't born in the UK, if I banged on as much about it as the media and twatterati do, i think i would find myself uninvited pretty quickly.....

    I recently had to fill in a questionnaire about the ethnicity of my children.

    Utterly depressing, I was tempted to fill in the box marked other as 'Melting pot of many civilisations and culture.'

    Apparently it is essential to capture their ethnicity and the social class of their parents.
    For class did you write "None"?
    One used to have to enter "race" on US visa applications. A well-known (white) British journalist was refused a visa after putting "human".
    I just had to answer a load of questions on the FA site in order to join an over 35s football team inc Skin colour, religion, gender, am I the same gender as I was at birth, mum and dads occupation when I was 14
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPPT.
    Canada polling. Voting a week today. Average of last 10 polls, final days 8-11 September. So after the French debate, and straddling the English.

    Libs 31.9 (-1.2)
    Con 31.4 (-2.9)
    NDP 18.4 (+2.4)
    PPC 7.7 (+6.1)
    BQ 6.0 (-1.6)
    Green 3.6 (-3.0) Changes with last election.

    Trudeau is coming with a late run again. Ironically, though, the Tories are getting greater vote efficiency this time, so may come closer in terms of seats. Indeed, it isn't inconceivable they could get fewer votes, but most seats. A complete turnaround.
    PPC continuing to rise on the back of opposition to vaccines, vaxports, climate policies and gun laws. Amongst other things.
    Things look much, much better for Justin than a fortnight ago.
    Still time for it to change.
    Tories heavily trying to convince PPC folk that they won't win a seat (probably) under FPTP.
    Logic, mystifyingly, isn't working on them.

    Indeed, ironically the Liberals might win the popular vote this time unlike 2019 as the Conservatives have lost more votes to the PPC than the Liberals have lost to the NDP now.

    However it will be neck and neck on seats. The Conservatives look to be doing worse in Alberta than last time (albeit still well ahead) but better in Ontario, with the Liberals doing better in Quebec and the NDP doing well in BC. So it could well be a different pattern in each area, with the Conservatives picking up Liberal seats in Ontario and the Liberals gaining BQ seats in Quebec and the NDP gaining seats from the Conservatives and Liberals in BC. The Liberals may also pick up 1 or 2 seats from the 4 they lost in Alberta last time
    Yes. The fall in Alberta, down from 64 % to c 50% will cost them only a few seats, as they are still massively ahead. But it accounts for a >1.5% drop in the national vote share.
    How reliable are the provincial polls? Properly weighted, or like Scottish subsamples just a bit of the total that happens to live there?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    According to the Guardian there has been a real risk of the NHS being overwhelmed for the past 20 years (well certainly since 2010 for some reason).

    A chorus of pro-lockdown papers showing pictures of trolleys in corridors will thereby tilt policy accordingly.
    If what we hear from Foxy is true (and there is little reason not to believe him) his hospital (which we can assume is not unique so is similar to others) already has issues and it's early September.
    In fairness, Leicestershire/Rutland appears to have been a hotspot since the pandemic began (if not before). Reasons: unclear. My ward doctor friends on the South Coast report no such problems. Indeed my NHS friends tend to be the most anti-lockdown for some reason.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798

    New research just published in the International Economic Review.

    The decline in sterling due to Brexit raised consumer prices 2.9%, costing the average household £870 a year.

    https://twitter.com/thom_sampson/status/1437317032391872514?s=21

    🤦‍♂️

    And yet the Governor of the Bank of England has had to write "please explain" letters six times to explain why CPI was too low since the referendum: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/inflationary-targets

    Only one letter to explain why inflation was too high and even then it was only because it exceeded bounds by just 0.1% and immediately came back to within bounds.
    So Brexit has not only made us a happier and more contented country, it has also saved us from deflation.

    Hurrah!!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    isam said:

    Farooq said:

    With my friends who weren't born in the UK, if I banged on as much about it as the media and twatterati do, i think i would find myself uninvited pretty quickly.....

    I recently had to fill in a questionnaire about the ethnicity of my children.

    Utterly depressing, I was tempted to fill in the box marked other as 'Melting pot of many civilisations and culture.'

    Apparently it is essential to capture their ethnicity and the social class of their parents.
    For class did you write "None"?
    One used to have to enter "race" on US visa applications. A well-known (white) British journalist was refused a visa after putting "human".
    I just had to answer a load of questions on the FA site in order to join an over 35s football team inc Skin colour, religion, gender, am I the same gender as I was at birth, mum and dads occupation when I was 14
    Was it multiple choice? What were the options for "skin colour"?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    edited September 2021
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    100% agree.

    Edit: and my point from the start was that if you put the PM, CMO, CSO on a podium talking to the nation about rock climbing pretty soon rock climbing would be banned.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522
    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    I'm not sure we ever published them daily, hence why you are unable to remember them?
  • Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
    You don’t need to be Cass Sunstein to know that an on-again, off-again public health policy is counterproductive, destructive, and represents utter incompetence behind scenes.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    You can't be confusing the Guardian website for IRL surely Nick?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    Spot on.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    Farooq said:

    With my friends who weren't born in the UK, if I banged on as much about it as the media and twatterati do, i think i would find myself uninvited pretty quickly.....

    I recently had to fill in a questionnaire about the ethnicity of my children.

    Utterly depressing, I was tempted to fill in the box marked other as 'Melting pot of many civilisations and culture.'

    Apparently it is essential to capture their ethnicity and the social class of their parents.
    For class did you write "None"?
    One used to have to enter "race" on US visa applications. A well-known (white) British journalist was refused a visa after putting "human".
    I just had to answer a load of questions on the FA site in order to join an over 35s football team inc Skin colour, religion, gender, am I the same gender as I was at birth, mum and dads occupation when I was 14
    Was it multiple choice? What were the options for "skin colour"?
    It was ethnicity sorry, not skin colour.


  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited September 2021
    DavidL said:

    New research just published in the International Economic Review.

    The decline in sterling due to Brexit raised consumer prices 2.9%, costing the average household £870 a year.

    https://twitter.com/thom_sampson/status/1437317032391872514?s=21

    🤦‍♂️

    And yet the Governor of the Bank of England has had to write "please explain" letters six times to explain why CPI was too low since the referendum: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/inflationary-targets

    Only one letter to explain why inflation was too high and even then it was only because it exceeded bounds by just 0.1% and immediately came back to within bounds.
    So Brexit has not only made us a happier and more contented country, it has also saved us from deflation.

    Hurrah!!
    In their Brexit delusion, David L and Philip T are increasingly like the proverbial Japanese soldiers still fighting the war in the Filipino jungle.

    Sorry, folks.
    Hirohito abdicated a while back. Brexit is a crock.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Picking up on @iSam 's point above, air pollution is a massive killer in the UK (40,000 pa / 110 a day according to this study).

    If we published daily deaths related to air pollution, public policy on (electric) cars, road use and vehicle free city centres might be very different.

    Hard to imagine we'd still have traffic on Oxford Street, for example.

    https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/projects/outputs/every-breath-we-take-lifelong-impact-air-pollution
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
    You don’t need to be Cass Sunstein to know that an on-again, off-again public health policy is counterproductive, destructive, and represents utter incompetence behind scenes.
    Oh absolutely – I'm not defending it. The government is an effing shambles.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    100% agree.

    Edit: and my point from the start was that if you put the PM, CMO, CSO on a podium talking to the nation about rock climbing pretty soon rock climbing would be banned.
    Yes. I guess they wanted to emphasise how serious it was. But not many people knew 1500 people die a day anyway, and not knowing the baseline made it seem worse I suppose
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128

    One in the eye for the doomsters and gloomsters:

    Brexit triumph as crown stamp FINALLY returns to pint glasses after 15 years

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1489841/brexit-news-european-commission-pint-glasses-eu-latest

    I genuinely hadn’t realised it had gone.

    Apparently it never went away.

    Otto English
    @Otto_English
    Seems the crown never went away. All that's changing here is the CE marking or "fill line" on a pint glass. If that's been bothering you for the last 15 years then that's 15 years of wasted life.

    The bar for 'Brexit triumph' is set ever lower. Only a matter of time before they're limbo dancing under it.
    Otto's a bit of a mythmaker himself. Read his book about fake history, including a few fakes of its own. Perhaps a hidden technicality that Otto says proves a far larger case. Like the "Britain's vaccine desisions would have been fine in the EU" thing.

    A (Lab) Govt Minister said that it *had* gone away in about 2007.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPPT.
    Canada polling. Voting a week today. Average of last 10 polls, final days 8-11 September. So after the French debate, and straddling the English.

    Libs 31.9 (-1.2)
    Con 31.4 (-2.9)
    NDP 18.4 (+2.4)
    PPC 7.7 (+6.1)
    BQ 6.0 (-1.6)
    Green 3.6 (-3.0) Changes with last election.

    Trudeau is coming with a late run again. Ironically, though, the Tories are getting greater vote efficiency this time, so may come closer in terms of seats. Indeed, it isn't inconceivable they could get fewer votes, but most seats. A complete turnaround.
    PPC continuing to rise on the back of opposition to vaccines, vaxports, climate policies and gun laws. Amongst other things.
    Things look much, much better for Justin than a fortnight ago.
    Still time for it to change.
    Tories heavily trying to convince PPC folk that they won't win a seat (probably) under FPTP.
    Logic, mystifyingly, isn't working on them.

    Indeed, ironically the Liberals might win the popular vote this time unlike 2019 as the Conservatives have lost more votes to the PPC than the Liberals have lost to the NDP now.

    However it will be neck and neck on seats. The Conservatives look to be doing worse in Alberta than last time (albeit still well ahead) but better in Ontario, with the Liberals doing better in Quebec and the NDP doing well in BC. So it could well be a different pattern in each area, with the Conservatives picking up Liberal seats in Ontario and the Liberals gaining BQ seats in Quebec and the NDP gaining seats from the Conservatives and Liberals in BC. The Liberals may also pick up 1 or 2 seats from the 4 they lost in Alberta last time
    Yes. The fall in Alberta, down from 64 % to c 50% will cost them only a few seats, as they are still massively ahead. But it accounts for a >1.5% drop in the national vote share.
    How reliable are the provincial polls? Properly weighted, or like Scottish subsamples just a bit of the total that happens to live there?
    Good point. They are an agglomeration of subsamples in the main I think.
    However, in their defence, there have been at least 3 polls per day, sometimes more, for the past month from differing companles. So, that's a fair bit of data. And Canada is very used to not applying UNS. Not least because it is so big that "local" issues play a much bigger part. And, everyone has a powerful Provincial government with powers that would make Sturgeon salivate, which can boost or drag on the popularity of a Party.
    The mood music out of Alberta seems to support the polling, too.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2021

    DavidL said:

    New research just published in the International Economic Review.

    The decline in sterling due to Brexit raised consumer prices 2.9%, costing the average household £870 a year.

    https://twitter.com/thom_sampson/status/1437317032391872514?s=21

    🤦‍♂️

    And yet the Governor of the Bank of England has had to write "please explain" letters six times to explain why CPI was too low since the referendum: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/inflationary-targets

    Only one letter to explain why inflation was too high and even then it was only because it exceeded bounds by just 0.1% and immediately came back to within bounds.
    So Brexit has not only made us a happier and more contented country, it has also saved us from deflation.

    Hurrah!!
    In their Brexit delusion, David L and Philip T are increasingly like the proverbial Japanese soldiers still fighting the war in the Filipino jungle.

    Sorry, folks.
    Hirohito abdicated a while back. Brexit is a crock.
    Are we still subject to FOM?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    100% agree.

    Edit: and my point from the start was that if you put the PM, CMO, CSO on a podium talking to the nation about rock climbing pretty soon rock climbing would be banned.
    Absolutely, and see my post below about air pollution.
  • Just saw "Resigning" is trending on twitter

    Seems to be in response to a tweet asking

    "If Sturgeon resigned tomorrow, what would be her greatest achievement?"
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited September 2021

    Picking up on @iSam 's point above, air pollution is a massive killer in the UK (40,000 pa / 110 a day according to this study).

    If we published daily deaths related to air pollution, public policy on (electric) cars, road use and vehicle free city centres might be very different.

    Hard to imagine we'd still have traffic on Oxford Street, for example.

    https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/projects/outputs/every-breath-we-take-lifelong-impact-air-pollution

    Thank goodness, actually, we are finally to get rid of traffic on Oxford Street.

    London is years behind Paris and Amsterdam.

    (Although the one-lane eastbound on the Euston Road is a fucking disaster).
  • If we had a lockdown this weekend it'd get me out of a dinner.

    [I'll never understand why other people like eating out. And that may sound odd to you, but bear in mind my strong introversion has been a very helpful trait during the pandemic].

    That said, the long ago PB meet in Ilkley was enjoyable. I think that was because it involved food/drink if you wanted it, and the conversation was focused on politics and betting rather than humdrum stuff.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    Farooq said:

    With my friends who weren't born in the UK, if I banged on as much about it as the media and twatterati do, i think i would find myself uninvited pretty quickly.....

    I recently had to fill in a questionnaire about the ethnicity of my children.

    Utterly depressing, I was tempted to fill in the box marked other as 'Melting pot of many civilisations and culture.'

    Apparently it is essential to capture their ethnicity and the social class of their parents.
    For class did you write "None"?
    One used to have to enter "race" on US visa applications. A well-known (white) British journalist was refused a visa after putting "human".
    I just had to answer a load of questions on the FA site in order to join an over 35s football team inc Skin colour, religion, gender, am I the same gender as I was at birth, mum and dads occupation when I was 14
    Was it multiple choice? What were the options for "skin colour"?
    It was ethnicity sorry, not skin colour.


    Did they give a "prefer not to say" option? I usually tick that one as it does my head in those questions..
  • Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
    You don’t need to be Cass Sunstein to know that an on-again, off-again public health policy is counterproductive, destructive, and represents utter incompetence behind scenes.
    Oh absolutely – I'm not defending it. The government is an effing shambles.
    You would be one of my fave posters if it were not for your inexplicable anti-NZ prejudices, hah.
  • isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    100% agree.

    Edit: and my point from the start was that if you put the PM, CMO, CSO on a podium talking to the nation about rock climbing pretty soon rock climbing would be banned.
    Yes. I guess they wanted to emphasise how serious it was. But not many people knew 1500 people die a day anyway, and not knowing the baseline made it seem worse I suppose
    On the one hand yes, but on the other hand people tune out statistics. I've seen zero covid enthusiasts bemoan the fact that we're happy to live with around 100 covid deaths per day as if its not a problem anymore. Which is quite right as its not a problem.

    But the old saying applies, "1 death is a tragedy, millions is a statistic". People tune out the statistics nowadays.

    If instead of reading tractor stats on deaths there were 1-2 deaths per day but each one was reported personalised eg putting a picture up and saying "Susan Brown died today from Covid19, she was a 47 year old primary school teacher from Brighton who leaves behind 3 children" then would that hit people less or more than the tractor stats?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,986

    In their Brexit delusion, David L and Philip T are increasingly like the proverbial Japanese soldiers still fighting the war in the Filipino jungle.

    Sorry, folks.
    Hirohito abdicated a while back. Brexit is a crock.

    BREAKING: Giant dropping penny completely destroys Telegraph offices. Most magical cake missing, presumed eaten. Scores of unicorns feared injured. Staff asked to make their way to the Sunlit Uplands emergency assembly point. ~AA https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1437399815692955651/photo/1
  • Is anyone IRL really “pro-lockdown” anymore? I only hear this constant sabre-rattling on PB. Most normal people seem to be getting on with their lives. I was in town on Saturday night: the theatre was full and Soho was absolutely jumping. Like the pandemic never happened. It was wonderful to see.

    people werent afraid in early march 2020 i remember going out one night and there really was not much fear. it was johnsons speech about many losing loved ones and then a constant media campaign followed by apocolyptic restrictions that caused the fear
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,128
    edited September 2021
    Taz said:

    Anecdote time:

    I'm in the office today, and it is much busier than it was 3 weeks ago. Still seats available on the train, so numbers not getting back to normal overall yet - if they ever will.

    I popped out to Greggs at lunchtime (as you do). Certain posters may be interested to know that there were a number of HTGs from the nearby college out and about.

    HTG ?
    Allegedly.

    Leon just wants to sell dildos.

    Unless he's feeling a little "squidgy".
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
    You don’t need to be Cass Sunstein to know that an on-again, off-again public health policy is counterproductive, destructive, and represents utter incompetence behind scenes.
    Oh absolutely – I'm not defending it. The government is an effing shambles.
    You would be one of my fave posters if it were not for your inexplicable anti-NZ prejudices, hah.
    I have no personal issue with NZ! It's just not my cup of tea (too disperse, poor food scene, crap pubs). I loved the landscapes there and enjoyed a holiday there. But I wouldn't want to live there and think it's perennially overrated as a place to live. A mate who has moved there wants to come back!
  • if deaths rise again significantly and the media gets the fearmongering going again then those very same people could well be calling for lockdown again
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Selebian said:



    Heh, lol for my gullibility :smiley:

    The original isn't much saner, mind (assuming that version is genuine)
    https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/08/21/of-all-the-weird-things-in-this-liz-truss-picture-the-framed-dog-photo-is-the-weirdest/


    Original (from Truss's twitter)
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECZ02mUWkAAf7R0?format=jpg&name=medium

    I don't see that's an improvement except for the phone being right way up. Why the dog guillotine complete with builders bucket for dogs head to fall into? And the strangest thing of all is the fact the utterly weird picture in the frame in the fake version, is for real.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited September 2021

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
    You don’t need to be Cass Sunstein to know that an on-again, off-again public health policy is counterproductive, destructive, and represents utter incompetence behind scenes.
    Oh absolutely – I'm not defending it. The government is an effing shambles.
    You would be one of my fave posters if it were not for your inexplicable anti-NZ prejudices, hah.
    I have no personal issue with NZ! It's just not my cup of tea (too disperse, poor food scene, crap pubs). I loved the landscapes there and enjoyed a holiday there. But I wouldn't want to live there and think it's perennially overrated as a place to live. A mate who has moved there wants to come back!
    It’s a wonderful place. I’m very privileged to have a NZ passport.

    I’ll agree the pubs are diabolical, though.
    All seven of them.

    I hope to retire there, for 3-6 months a year, when my youngest leaves school.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311
    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Let's hope so.

    And Patel.

    Williamson is a loyalist so I doubt it, removing Patel would also make her a focal point for rightwing opposition to the government on the backbenches.

    The only move I expect is Raab to Justice with Truss becoming Foreign Secretary.

    It is possible Gove gets a promotion too though as he is competent whatever other problems he has
    Who to Trade?
    Keep Truss doing it and bring it within the FCDO.
    Has she worked out to use a phone yet?


    They are such dummies. Dimmer than a 5 watt bulb.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    Maybe we should start publishing the stats as percentage rates to give people a better perspective?

    Today 0.00015% of the population died from Covid.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,311

    Selebian said:



    Heh, lol for my gullibility :smiley:

    The original isn't much saner, mind (assuming that version is genuine)
    https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/08/21/of-all-the-weird-things-in-this-liz-truss-picture-the-framed-dog-photo-is-the-weirdest/


    Original (from Truss's twitter)
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECZ02mUWkAAf7R0?format=jpg&name=medium

    You mean fake when she saw what a diddy she was.
  • Mr. Walker, you could start a pub and people will sing your praises:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTUJNeuFIFA
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
    You don’t need to be Cass Sunstein to know that an on-again, off-again public health policy is counterproductive, destructive, and represents utter incompetence behind scenes.
    Oh absolutely – I'm not defending it. The government is an effing shambles.
    You would be one of my fave posters if it were not for your inexplicable anti-NZ prejudices, hah.
    I have no personal issue with NZ! It's just not my cup of tea (too disperse, poor food scene, crap pubs). I loved the landscapes there and enjoyed a holiday there. But I wouldn't want to live there and think it's perennially overrated as a place to live. A mate who has moved there wants to come back!
    It’s a wonderful place. I’m very privileged to have a NZ passport.

    I’ll agree the pubs are diabolical, though.
    All seven of them.

    I hope to retire there, for 3-6 months a year, when my youngest leaves school.
    Ha! It would be nice to avoid the English winter every year, I grant you.

    Re: NZ pubs, reminds me of that spoof tweet at the start of pandemic whereby Jacinda said words to effect of: "We will take action. We will close all our schools and offices, and both of our restaurants."
  • maaarsh said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    Maybe we should start publishing the stats as percentage rates to give people a better perspective?

    Today 0.00015% of the population died from Covid.
    incredibly the average person thinks 7% of the population has died from covid equivalent to about 5 million people
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2021
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    Brilliant! Have they been reading yesterday’s thread about her dress and hat colours?! Absolutely spot on :D

    “Joseph Turner of Bristol said: “I’ve sort of cheered them on, obviously, but I can’t help feeling that the wrong people are cheering much more loudly for incorrect nationalistic reasons.

    “Point out Emma Raducanu’s ethnic origins and suddenly you’re the dick because everyone else is proud of her being British and you’re doing the thing the racists do. But for the right reasons. But still.”
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    maaarsh said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    Maybe we should start publishing the stats as percentage rates to give people a better perspective?

    Today 0.00015% of the population died from Covid.
    incredibly the average person thinks 7% of the population has died from covid equivalent to about 5 million people
    0.6% in Peru is the record.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,417
    edited September 2021

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
    You don’t need to be Cass Sunstein to know that an on-again, off-again public health policy is counterproductive, destructive, and represents utter incompetence behind scenes.
    Oh absolutely – I'm not defending it. The government is an effing shambles.
    You would be one of my fave posters if it were not for your inexplicable anti-NZ prejudices, hah.
    I have no personal issue with NZ! It's just not my cup of tea (too disperse, poor food scene, crap pubs). I loved the landscapes there and enjoyed a holiday there. But I wouldn't want to live there and think it's perennially overrated as a place to live. A mate who has moved there wants to come back!
    It’s a wonderful place. I’m very privileged to have a NZ passport.

    I’ll agree the pubs are diabolical, though.
    All seven of them.

    I hope to retire there, for 3-6 months a year, when my youngest leaves school.
    Ha! It would be nice to avoid the English winter every year, I grant you.

    Re: NZ pubs, reminds me of that spoof tweet at the start of pandemic whereby Jacinda said words to effect of: "We will take action. We will close all our schools and offices, and both of our restaurants."
    Some years Mrs C & I had a (very enjoyable) trip to NZ. Met several people of roughly our age then who were spending 6 months in UK, and 6 in NZ.
    Not, to my mind a bad idea, although now if I were left alone I'd probably try and spend 3-4 months a year with younger son and family, in Bangkok.
    However, as Mrs C is a little younger than me than me, and fitter, the chances of that are very, very low.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213
    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Let's hope so.

    And Patel.

    Williamson is a loyalist so I doubt it, removing Patel would also make her a focal point for rightwing opposition to the government on the backbenches.

    The only move I expect is Raab to Justice with Truss becoming Foreign Secretary.

    It is possible Gove gets a promotion too though as he is competent whatever other problems he has
    Who to Trade?
    Keep Truss doing it and bring it within the FCDO.
    Has she worked out to use a phone yet?


    They are such dummies. Dimmer than a 5 watt bulb.
    Only slightly more (or less stupid) than people who fall for faked photos on the inter webs.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,399
    edited September 2021

    maaarsh said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    Maybe we should start publishing the stats as percentage rates to give people a better perspective?

    Today 0.00015% of the population died from Covid.
    incredibly the average person thinks 7% of the population has died from covid equivalent to about 5 million people
    Folk don't understand stats. They are useful to advance arguments on here. Where some are experts, and all can comprehend the basics.
    In wider politics, as good as useless. It isn't a rational pursuit.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
    I found that article hilarious
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
    It's bloody funny still as witness the above.

    Interesting to me is that it is making fun of remainers whereas it has in the past (I don't look at it all the time) made fun of Brexiters. Such as this, one of my favourites (a long time ago so you will find it funny).

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-claims-hius-life-being-ruined-by-immigration-but-cant-explain-how-20170227122932

  • malcolmg said:

    Selebian said:



    Heh, lol for my gullibility :smiley:

    The original isn't much saner, mind (assuming that version is genuine)
    https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/08/21/of-all-the-weird-things-in-this-liz-truss-picture-the-framed-dog-photo-is-the-weirdest/


    Original (from Truss's twitter)
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECZ02mUWkAAf7R0?format=jpg&name=medium

    You mean fake when she saw what a diddy she was.
    You think this photo is faked?

    I'm reminded of you getting confused with Peston by mirrors..
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,978
    edited September 2021
    So 12-15 year olds with finally get a jab....all that wasted time, when we could have sorted this in the summer holidays.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited September 2021

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    In any case, isn't the main benefit of vaxports to nudge the dubious into getting vaccinated (e.g. France)?
    Yes, it’s just a Nudge strategy. Hence why Bozza has tried to notionally put it back on the table. The Nudge Unit won’t have been happy with Sajid’s unalloyed cancellation of the idea yesterday.
    You don’t need to be Cass Sunstein to know that an on-again, off-again public health policy is counterproductive, destructive, and represents utter incompetence behind scenes.
    Oh absolutely – I'm not defending it. The government is an effing shambles.
    You would be one of my fave posters if it were not for your inexplicable anti-NZ prejudices, hah.
    I have no personal issue with NZ! It's just not my cup of tea (too disperse, poor food scene, crap pubs). I loved the landscapes there and enjoyed a holiday there. But I wouldn't want to live there and think it's perennially overrated as a place to live. A mate who has moved there wants to come back!
    It’s a wonderful place. I’m very privileged to have a NZ passport.

    I’ll agree the pubs are diabolical, though.
    All seven of them.

    I hope to retire there, for 3-6 months a year, when my youngest leaves school.
    Ha! It would be nice to avoid the English winter every year, I grant you.

    Re: NZ pubs, reminds me of that spoof tweet at the start of pandemic whereby Jacinda said words to effect of: "We will take action. We will close all our schools and offices, and both of our restaurants."
    Some years Mrs C & I had a (very enjoyable) trip to NZ. Met several people of roughly our age then who were spending 6 months in UK, and 6 in NZ.
    Not, to my mind a bad idea, although now if I were left alone I'd probably try and spend 3-4 months a year with younger son and family, in Bangkok.
    However, as Mrs C is a little younger than me than me, and fitter, the chances of that are very, very low.
    Why is Mrs C stopping you?

    My retirement plan is approx:

    Jan-Mar NZ
    Apr-Jun London
    Jul-Sep France
    Oct-Dec London

    I am planning to “retire” (as in not need to work) in about 10 years, but unfortunately my son won’t finish school until 2037!
  • It made me sick to watch a once-male special forces combat veteran beat up a woman on TV - it’s time to stop this trans sport insanity before women start being killed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9985411/PIERS-MORGAN-time-stop-trans-sport-insanity-women-start-killed.html

    Twitter metldown incoming....
  • So 12-15 year olds with finally get a jab....all that wasted time, when we could have sorted this in the summer holidays.

    It’s truly bewildering.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    isam said:

    DavidL said:

    New research just published in the International Economic Review.

    The decline in sterling due to Brexit raised consumer prices 2.9%, costing the average household £870 a year.

    https://twitter.com/thom_sampson/status/1437317032391872514?s=21

    🤦‍♂️

    And yet the Governor of the Bank of England has had to write "please explain" letters six times to explain why CPI was too low since the referendum: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/inflationary-targets

    Only one letter to explain why inflation was too high and even then it was only because it exceeded bounds by just 0.1% and immediately came back to within bounds.
    So Brexit has not only made us a happier and more contented country, it has also saved us from deflation.

    Hurrah!!
    In their Brexit delusion, David L and Philip T are increasingly like the proverbial Japanese soldiers still fighting the war in the Filipino jungle.

    Sorry, folks.
    Hirohito abdicated a while back. Brexit is a crock.
    Are we still subject to FOM?
    Is freedom something you are "subject to" ? Or is freedom something "which no honest man gives up but with life itself", as the Declaration of Arbroath puts it?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,366

    So 12-15 year olds with finally get a jab....all that wasted time, when we could have sorted this in the summer holidays.

    It's an age group that is far easier vaccinated in term time rather than outside it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    On topic, Christ it’s overdue.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,978
    edited September 2021
    eek said:

    So 12-15 year olds with finally get a jab....all that wasted time, when we could have sorted this in the summer holidays.

    It's an age group that is far easier vaccinated in term time rather than outside it.
    It is, we could have done it before sumer holidays....or first week back...but i also don't think it would have been that hard to let kids also get it done during

    I have long argued if judged safe and people want it, and there is availability, sooner the better. We have spent 2 months now doing very low numbers evey day.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
    It's bloody funny still as witness the above.

    Interesting to me is that it is making fun of remainers whereas it has in the past (I don't look at it all the time) made fun of Brexiters. Such as this, one of my favourites (a long time ago so you will find it funny).

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-claims-hius-life-being-ruined-by-immigration-but-cant-explain-how-20170227122932

    That is achingly unfunny. Sorry, but there it is. It's like saying I can't be seriously opposed to racism, because as a whitey in West Devon I don't encounter much of it.

    There was a funny writer. He left.

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/duncan-smith-denies-affair-with-jackal-2013060370602
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213
    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    With my friends who weren't born in the UK, if I banged on as much about it as the media and twatterati do, i think i would find myself uninvited pretty quickly.....

    I recently had to fill in a questionnaire about the ethnicity of my children.

    Utterly depressing, I was tempted to fill in the box marked other as 'Melting pot of many civilisations and culture.'

    Apparently it is essential to capture their ethnicity and the social class of their parents.
    For class did you write "None"?
    One used to have to enter "race" on US visa applications. A well-known (white) British journalist was refused a visa after putting "human".
    One of my daughters, when asked to fill in a form like that, included a chunk of the family tree and a detailed statement of her heritage, in handwriting that an ant would read as small, in the margin.

    For some reason I was very proud.
    All the way back to her/your Romanian great-great-great-grandparents?
    That far back, we have Chanka, Spanish, Scottish, English, Ukranian* & Polish*

    *Depending on which national leader had a bad breakfast and moved the border again.
  • Tory car crash on UC cut, I predict this will be reversed, otherwise it is to the 20s
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189

    maaarsh said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Jeez. What planet does Johnson live on. How on earth can bringing in vaccine passports for venues help if he does it later in the winter "if needed" as he is now saying?

    They haven't a f*cking clue what they are doing from one hour to the next.

    I get it.

    Since we're not going for a Zero Covid strategy there's no problem with people going out and catching Covid now. Indeed everyone who does reduces the risk of Covid being caught in the Winter.

    If in the Winter there's a risk of the NHS being overwhelemed, that would be the time to introduce restrictions if they're required, not now.

    Would you really prefer it and be happier if they were introduced unnecessarily today, just because it was decided they might be useful in the Winter?
    If the health service is about (yet again) to be overwhelmed then I predict it will be far more about flu than covid so a covid vaxport will be a waste of time. But anyway it will be lockdowns that are needed and urgently (under the mindset of SAGE and ministers to date) rather than pratting around with having to show papers to get into a pub.
    There is a no COVID.

    Having reviewed the list of activities which can potentially spread COVID and the list of activities that PBers confidently assert can't possibly cause COVID spread, the intersecting set is empty.

    So there is no way for COVID to spread, R is 0. The end.
    That said 2018 = 27,000 deaths, 2019 = 30,000 deaths. From flu.

    So 100 deaths a day for 300 days. Or 300 deaths a day for 100 days.

    Not remembering the daily stats then, however.
    This is a point I tried to make at the start of the pandemic; if the news provided a breakdown of deaths by disease every day, all the time, things would seem a lot more bleak than they are. Or at least people would be a lot more fearful than they are
    Maybe we should start publishing the stats as percentage rates to give people a better perspective?

    Today 0.00015% of the population died from Covid.
    incredibly the average person thinks 7% of the population has died from covid equivalent to about 5 million people
    Incredibly, indeed:

    https://fullfact.org/health/why-poll-gives-misleading-view-how-many-people-public-think-covid-19-has-killed/

    "This uses a mean average which isn’t appropriate in this context. Using the median, the average Brit thought that 1% of the GB population had died of Covid-19."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,978
    edited September 2021
    IanB2 said:

    On topic, Christ it’s overdue.

    I failed to meet anybody ever who has a positive opinion of him. Even divisive figures like Gove who the teachers hate, but the legal profession and environmental lobby seem to at least have on occasion favourable things to say about him.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
    It's bloody funny still as witness the above.

    Interesting to me is that it is making fun of remainers whereas it has in the past (I don't look at it all the time) made fun of Brexiters. Such as this, one of my favourites (a long time ago so you will find it funny).

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-claims-hius-life-being-ruined-by-immigration-but-cant-explain-how-20170227122932

    That is achingly unfunny. Sorry, but there it is. It's like saying I can't be seriously opposed to racism, because as a whitey in West Devon I don't encounter much of it.

    There was a funny writer. He left.

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/duncan-smith-denies-affair-with-jackal-2013060370602
    Mr Serious McSerious. Lighten up instead of pointing to "classic Mash". It's been consistently funny for years and still is.
  • So PBs coven of witches are now dissecting the entrails of photos-within-photos to divine deep meanings about people they don't like?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MattW said:

    HYUFD said:

    Let's hope so.

    And Patel.

    Williamson is a loyalist so I doubt it, removing Patel would also make her a focal point for rightwing opposition to the government on the backbenches.

    The only move I expect is Raab to Justice with Truss becoming Foreign Secretary.

    It is possible Gove gets a promotion too though as he is competent whatever other problems he has
    Who to Trade?
    Keep Truss doing it and bring it within the FCDO.
    Has she worked out to use a phone yet?


    They are such dummies. Dimmer than a 5 watt bulb.
    Only slightly more (or less stupid) than people who fall for faked photos on the inter webs.
    Indeed. Lizz Truss is fake, but not that fake.
  • IanB2 said:

    On topic, Christ it’s overdue.

    I failed to meet anybody ever who has a positive opinion of him. Even divisive figures like Gove who the teachers hate, but the legal profession and environmental lobby seem to at least have on occasion favourable things to say about him.
    Fun fact.

    Dom Cummings was SPAD to Gove at Education but wasn’t his SPAD at Justice or Environment.

    Coincidence?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
    Was it ever funny?

    It has good funny ideas, like the Onion, but the Onion often follows through with an actual funny article. I can't remember the Mash ever doing that
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Germany’s highest point (well, half a point, as it’s on the border) and the longest cable car span in the world:


  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Is there anything more pointless than people debating whether something is funny or not? Humour is so subjective – if you find something funny, great, if you don't, fine. That's it really.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
    It's bloody funny still as witness the above.

    Interesting to me is that it is making fun of remainers whereas it has in the past (I don't look at it all the time) made fun of Brexiters. Such as this, one of my favourites (a long time ago so you will find it funny).

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-claims-hius-life-being-ruined-by-immigration-but-cant-explain-how-20170227122932

    That's just...... NOT funny

    I don't mind the target, although it is a pretty easy one to aim at. Yet it still misses. Doesn't even make me smile
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Selebian said:



    Heh, lol for my gullibility :smiley:

    The original isn't much saner, mind (assuming that version is genuine)
    https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2019/08/21/of-all-the-weird-things-in-this-liz-truss-picture-the-framed-dog-photo-is-the-weirdest/


    Original (from Truss's twitter)
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECZ02mUWkAAf7R0?format=jpg&name=medium

    I don't see that's an improvement except for the phone being right way up. Why the dog guillotine complete with builders bucket for dogs head to fall into? And the strangest thing of all is the fact the utterly weird picture in the frame in the fake version, is for real.
    If I had a picture of myself with the actual (and by the time of this picture, deceased) Dulux dog, I'd have it framed and up somewhere.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
    It's bloody funny still as witness the above.

    Interesting to me is that it is making fun of remainers whereas it has in the past (I don't look at it all the time) made fun of Brexiters. Such as this, one of my favourites (a long time ago so you will find it funny).

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-claims-hius-life-being-ruined-by-immigration-but-cant-explain-how-20170227122932

    That's just...... NOT funny

    I don't mind the target, although it is a pretty easy one to aim at. Yet it still misses. Doesn't even make me smile
    I suppose the clue that very few people on PB have a sense of humour was the hours and hours spent dissecting in all seriousness the outfit of the female US Open tennis winner.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239

    So 12-15 year olds with finally get a jab....all that wasted time, when we could have sorted this in the summer holidays.

    Grotesquely stupid. Worse, I cannot see the reason for the delay. So that's another 10,000 who will die unnecessarily because the politicians and scientists are idiots
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,213

    So PBs coven of witches are now dissecting the entrails of photos-within-photos to divine deep meanings about people they don't like?

    Can I borrow an ignorance* of pseudo-scientists from the shop** to analyse this issue?

    *New name for a collection of pundits
    **For some reason the Scientist Shop makes me think of the Magic Shop in the HG Wells story...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:



    Nick precisely no one IRL is associating Emma Raducanu and politics.

    Yeah? https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/12/emma-raducanu-victory-sparks-debate-over-multiculturalism-in-the-uk

    Second most widely-read article today.
    Gah!!

    OK in which case I'll have to repost this:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/british-sporting-success-making-us-look-like-dicks-remainers-admit-20210913212016

    Perhaps relevant to that article but I'm not going to read it (the Graun's).
    I'm old enough to remember when the Daily Mash used to be funny.
    It's bloody funny still as witness the above.

    Interesting to me is that it is making fun of remainers whereas it has in the past (I don't look at it all the time) made fun of Brexiters. Such as this, one of my favourites (a long time ago so you will find it funny).

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-claims-hius-life-being-ruined-by-immigration-but-cant-explain-how-20170227122932

    That's just...... NOT funny

    I don't mind the target, although it is a pretty easy one to aim at. Yet it still misses. Doesn't even make me smile
    Bloody funny:

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/tories-in-revolt-over-idea-of-helping-britain-20210906211795

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/the-tory-voters-guide-to-being-betrayed-yet-again-20210908211863

    https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/have-you-been-appointed-to-the-shadow-cabinet-take-our-quiz-20210510207931

    Edit: In fact it's all bloody funny.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Best Covid vaccine statistic:

    https://twitter.com/c4m3lo/status/1437349586499215363

    37.4% of all deaths of unvaccinated people are caused by COVID-19
    0.8% of all deaths of fully vaccinated people are caused by COVID-19

    Being unvaccinated, it just a matter of time until you get covid, then you are playing russian roulette.
  • tlg86 said:

    Of course our Emma is British. She speaks with the same posh southern English accent as all our tennis players do. Because they are the only type that the LTA promote.

    Andy Murray says hello!
    And Emma says "bună ziua"?
    I guess she left Canada before she picked up the whole "aboot" thing.
    She sounds like a typical South London teenager to me.
    Hmm, if you think that's typical for South London you've obviously not spent much time in my neck of the woods! Having said that, she sounds quite a lot like my eldest and all her nice middle class friends. Well spoken but not "okay yah".
This discussion has been closed.