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Are Trump and other top Republicans secret Democratic Party agents? – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    "Do you think that General Patton was woke? I don't think so ... you know what woke means? It means you're a loser."

    So at least that's that one nailed. We've been agonizing over it on here, haven't we, what the 'w' word means.

    He does have his uses.

    On that definition, Mr Trump is woke.

    Something wrong somewhere, methinks. Back to the drawing board?
    Ha, indeed. But I'm afraid there's an alternative reality called Trumpworld where you and I don't live and can't even risk visiting. There, he don't lose, can't lose, didn't lose, never did lose and never lost.
  • *giggles* Spar update. The Stewards have decided to suspend the clock. No longer 55 minutes to go. The clock has stopped.

    Sunset in Spa tonight is 7:27 pm UK time.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    The Ardennes in late August is often this sodden. We have had disastrous wet conditions for this race before. So why not move it so that it isn't August?

    https://www.holiday-weather.com/ardennes/averages/

    Second wettest month but not wetter than others by a huge margin.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
  • US air strike takes out an ISIS-K suicide bomber driving to the airport in a car rigged with explosives
  • *giggles* Spar update. The Stewards have decided to suspend the clock. No longer 55 minutes to go. The clock has stopped.

    Sunset in Spa tonight is 7:27 pm UK time.
    The clock has been suspended because the plane bringing Ravey Davey Govey to the circuit to wave the chequered flag is stuck in the fog.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,104

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Why would you posit getting and surviving Covid as an alternative to vaccines?

    Its not either/or, if you have a vaccine, you're far more likely to survive Covid.
    I don't posit it as an alternative for most people, but I don;t see why you need a vaccine if you have had covid.

    For healthy children between 12 and 15 I definitely would say that getting covid is an alternative to having an MRNA vaccine. Much better and more durable protection, almost no reinfection.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Why would you posit getting and surviving Covid as an alternative to vaccines?

    Its not either/or, if you have a vaccine, you're far more likely to survive Covid.
    I don't posit it as an alternative for most people, but I don;t see why you need a vaccine if you have had covid.

    For healthy children between 12 and 15 I definitely would say that getting covid is an alternative to having an MRNA vaccine. Much better and more durable protection, almost no reinfection.
    Do you have a source for the stats regarding covid itself as being better and more durable protection?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,628

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    I'm starting to *really* dislike Musk, as his legion of fans grow ever more evangelical. I'd say pyramid scheme, except he's delivered with F9 at SpaceX. I love and admire his ambition and drive; I dislike *him* and the stuff he says.

    A question: where will Tesla be in ten years? Dominant automaker (as their share price suggests) or bit-player?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
  • Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Why would you posit getting and surviving Covid as an alternative to vaccines?

    Its not either/or, if you have a vaccine, you're far more likely to survive Covid.
    I don't posit it as an alternative for most people, but I don;t see why you need a vaccine if you have had covid.

    For healthy children between 12 and 15 I definitely would say that getting covid is an alternative to having an MRNA vaccine. Much better and more durable protection, almost no reinfection.
    Its not better, its far, far worse. A 12 to 15 year old could die from getting Covid.

    A vaccine protects them and then if they get infected they can very easily fight it off and have two forms of protection.
  • RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Why would you posit getting and surviving Covid as an alternative to vaccines?

    Its not either/or, if you have a vaccine, you're far more likely to survive Covid.
    I don't posit it as an alternative for most people, but I don;t see why you need a vaccine if you have had covid.

    For healthy children between 12 and 15 I definitely would say that getting covid is an alternative to having an MRNA vaccine. Much better and more durable protection, almost no reinfection.
    Do you have a source for the stats regarding covid itself as being better and more durable protection?
    Its "better" so long as you don't die or otherwise get seriously ill before you get better.

    Its worse on any sane metric.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,628

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    Are Tesla profitable on a car-by-car basis, without the carbon offsets given to them by FCA et al?
  • Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    Precisely its just like Amazon. People were saying that Amazon had "never turned a profit" but the reason for that was reinvestment. Tesla are the same.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    It took me a while to convince myself this wasn't satire.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    Carnyx said:

    kinabalu said:

    "Do you think that General Patton was woke? I don't think so ... you know what woke means? It means you're a loser."

    So at least that's that one nailed. We've been agonizing over it on here, haven't we, what the 'w' word means.

    He does have his uses.

    On that definition, Mr Trump is woke.

    Something wrong somewhere, methinks. Back to the drawing board?
    Patton was the first US general to integrate white and black troops into the same units, IIRC. When challenged on this, he replied with a variation on his usual theme - "I don't care who X is, as long as he kills Germans efficiently".
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited August 2021

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Why would you posit getting and surviving Covid as an alternative to vaccines?

    Its not either/or, if you have a vaccine, you're far more likely to survive Covid.
    I don't posit it as an alternative for most people, but I don;t see why you need a vaccine if you have had covid.

    For healthy children between 12 and 15 I definitely would say that getting covid is an alternative to having an MRNA vaccine. Much better and more durable protection, almost no reinfection.
    Its not better, its far, far worse. A 12 to 15 year old could die from getting Covid.

    A vaccine protects them and then if they get infected they can very easily fight it off and have two forms of protection.
    They could also die from getting the vaccine. Its very rare, but it does happen. Are there medium or long term effects? Probably not, but you cannot say for sure, because you don;t have the data and you know you don't. And so you are taking a gamble with the lives of the very young, when there simply is no need to.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    I very (very very) much doubt that medical professionals are the only anti-vaxxers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far versus his personal wealth, not how rich might he bit when Tesla / Starlink are massively profitable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,104

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    Are Tesla profitable on a car-by-car basis, without the carbon offsets given to them by FCA et al?
    Difficult to say.
    But how profitable is any other manufacturer of EVs so far, if you only look at their EV production ?
    Battery manufacturing appears already to be a self- sustaining business for several major manufacturers, albeit with relatively low margins.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    Funny I see an anti-vaxxer sharing anti-vaxx memes, untruths and outright lies on politicalbetting.com

    He shares outright lies like false statistics contrasting Covid with lightning strikes, and pure illogical nonsense like contrasting vaccines with surviving Covid (as opposed to catching it since you don't know before hand whether you'll survive or not).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Why would you posit getting and surviving Covid as an alternative to vaccines?

    Its not either/or, if you have a vaccine, you're far more likely to survive Covid.
    I don't posit it as an alternative for most people, but I don;t see why you need a vaccine if you have had covid.

    For healthy children between 12 and 15 I definitely would say that getting covid is an alternative to having an MRNA vaccine. Much better and more durable protection, almost no reinfection.
    Its not better, its far, far worse. A 12 to 15 year old could die from getting Covid.

    A vaccine protects them and then if they get infected they can very easily fight it off and have two forms of protection.
    They could also die from getting the vaccine. Its very rare, but it does happen. Are there medium or long term effects? Probably not, but you cannot say for sure, because you don;t have the data and you know you don't.
    Long term effects. That's one for the anti-vaxxer bingo.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    My opprobrium is not targeted against those who people haven't been vaccinated but the idiots who dismissed Covid-19 as a hoax and those ***** who spread bullshit about the vaccine.

    Anyhoo, the stats show the uptake is increasing among African Americans and Hispanics, whilst now 'Recent polls have found Republicans and White evangelicals are least likely to say they’ll get the shots.'
    Surely the most effective anti-vaxxers are the medical professionals who write and broadcast stuff about vaccines.

    These are the people who can sound most credible because they know all the correct buzzwords and procedures, and are far more convincing that some hot-headed Trumpist sounding off about nothing.

    They are out there.
    They are right out there.
  • Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Why would you posit getting and surviving Covid as an alternative to vaccines?

    Its not either/or, if you have a vaccine, you're far more likely to survive Covid.
    I don't posit it as an alternative for most people, but I don;t see why you need a vaccine if you have had covid.

    For healthy children between 12 and 15 I definitely would say that getting covid is an alternative to having an MRNA vaccine. Much better and more durable protection, almost no reinfection.
    Its not better, its far, far worse. A 12 to 15 year old could die from getting Covid.

    A vaccine protects them and then if they get infected they can very easily fight it off and have two forms of protection.
    They could also die from getting the vaccine. Its very rare, but it does happen. Are there medium or long term effects? Probably not, but you cannot say for sure, because you don;t have the data and you know you don't. And so you are taking a gamble with the lives of the very young, when there simply is no need to.
    There is a need to, many of the young can and will die from catching Covid. When there is simply no need for them to do so, because we have a working vaccine.

    How many young people should die unnecessary deaths as opposed to taking a vaccine in your eyes?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    The supply chain crisis is the result of the Tories' Brexit deal and their failure to plan - together with the neglect of vital jobs and ministers' refusal to listen to those working in industry. 1/8
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/29/food-beer-toys-medical-kit-why-is-britain-running-out-of-everything
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    Are Tesla profitable on a car-by-car basis, without the carbon offsets given to them by FCA et al?
    According to people in the industry (matching the Tesla financial statements) - yes.

    This is why some of the shareholders wanted them to stop expanding etc and simply make cars. So, make a big profit for a few years. Then, having lost their innovation lead, sell the company to one of the big players.

    The margins on the actual cars vs the costs of production are actually above industry norms, IIRC.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,794
    F1: Channel 4 highlights put back to 9pm :p
  • Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    Precisely its just like Amazon. People were saying that Amazon had "never turned a profit" but the reason for that was reinvestment. Tesla are the same.
    I am not sure that is quite true. Amazon AWS has been insanely profitable for years, they ploughed that all back into expansion / subsidised the expansion of the e-commerce.

    I might be wrong but per car, Tesla hasn't been making money if you exclude the government subsidies until recently.
  • F1: Channel 4 highlights put back to 9pm :p

    Highlights:
    Danny Ric starts a mexican wave
    Lando has a nap
    Alpine team do the macarena in their garage
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,183

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    Precisely its just like Amazon. People were saying that Amazon had "never turned a profit" but the reason for that was reinvestment. Tesla are the same.
    I am not sure that is quite true. Amazon AWS has been insanely profitable for years, they ploughed that all back into expansion / subsidised the expansion of the e-commerce.

    I might be wrong but per car, Tesla hasn't been making money if you exclude the government subsidies until recently.
    Tesla makes all their money by selling EV credits to other car makers.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    "medical professionals i.e. doctors" is a stretch. You yourself dragged up a ludicrous document the other day signed by "medical professionals" who seemed in the main to be retired assistant dental nurses and hospital porters.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
    Do we know for certain spaceX is profitable and how much? I honestly don't know the answer.
  • Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    Precisely its just like Amazon. People were saying that Amazon had "never turned a profit" but the reason for that was reinvestment. Tesla are the same.
    I am not sure that is quite true. Amazon AWS has been insanely profitable for years, they ploughed that all back into expansion / subsidised the expansion of the e-commerce.

    I might be wrong but per car, Tesla hasn't been making money if you exclude the government subsidies until recently.
    I think per car they have, unless you count the expansion costs but the expansion costs pay for future cars not current cars.

    Which is just like Amazon. Around 2007 people were saying that Amazon had never made a profit but they were growing annually and reinvesting what would have been profits had they not invested it instead.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    I once had tremendous fun getting some (UK) people lay into Seventh Day Adventists - they were all up for persecuting the horrible, bigoted etc etc

    Until I showed them a picture myself at the local (London) Seventh Day Adventist meet-the-neighbours thing....
    Always playing tricks on earnest bean peasants, you are. I sense it ranks quite high on your list of hobbies.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Despite Scotland's soaring numbers they are still only at about 70% (but still rising) of the North East's recent surge or London's winter surge.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    F1: Channel 4 highlights put back to 9pm :p

    Sunset at Spa tonight is at 8:30. A greater than 50% chance of more rain is forecast right the way through until two o'clock tomorrow morning.

    Hopefully Channel 4 have a repeat of someone on a canal boat or a Kirsty & Phil offering ready to stick in the vacant slot.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    Precisely its just like Amazon. People were saying that Amazon had "never turned a profit" but the reason for that was reinvestment. Tesla are the same.
    I am not sure that is quite true. Amazon AWS has been insanely profitable for years, they ploughed that all back into expansion / subsidised the expansion of the e-commerce.

    I might be wrong but per car, Tesla hasn't been making money if you exclude the government subsidies until recently.
    I think per car they have, unless you count the expansion costs but the expansion costs pay for future cars not current cars.

    Which is just like Amazon. Around 2007 people were saying that Amazon had never made a profit but they were growing annually and reinvesting what would have been profits had they not invested it instead.
    Amazon AWS has been making money from basically the year dot. The non-profit was all basically paper accounting / reinvestment.

    I might be wrong, but I don't thinks that's true of Tesla. My understanding was they very nearly went bust even quite recently as they were losing so much money (even with all the government money).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    I once had tremendous fun getting some (UK) people lay into Seventh Day Adventists - they were all up for persecuting the horrible, bigoted etc etc

    Until I showed them a picture myself at the local (London) Seventh Day Adventist meet-the-neighbours thing....
    Always playing tricks on earnest bean peasants, you are. I sense it ranks quite high on your list of hobbies.
    I think of it as educating people. When they saw who they had been shitting on, you could almost see a lightbulb going on.. in some of them.

    History is full of people saying "I can't be bad because I am a noble person with noble ideals. Now, slaughter all those unbelievers."
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,183

    YoungTurk said:

    pigeon said:

    What stupid people US evangelicals are for their loopy opposition to vaccines. This saves lives you ignorant cretins or maybe you don't want that

    One is forced to conclude that they all want to meet Jesus and Covid is their opportunity to speed the process along.

    I have no real insight into the insight of any sector of the US - the only Americans I converse with IRL have been over here for years. Having said that: I do wonder if the marginalisation of religion (Christianity) has something to do with this. Science has overtaken the bible to a large extent. Therefore if you are very religious, science may well be bogus. Science versus belief.

    Has there been a breakdown of vaccination versus church attended?
    Calling all US evangelicals "cretins" or "stupid" because supposedly they all refuse vaccination against Covid is wrong because they don't. Probably not even a majority of them do.

    Not much is known about how the unvaccinated break down demographically. That's a strange lacuna given that in many minds their reluctance is one of the main antisocial problems of the current period.

    Nor is it clear who the unvaccinated are in Britain, while prejudices are being allowed to let rip. The reported proportion of the population in Kensington and Chelsea who are double-vaccinated is only 50%. I am not convinced that that is because many who reside in the borough also keep homes elsewhere. Since when were denominators for local vaccination stats taken from estimated numbers of residents?
    Why is Andy Murray sounding off today about unvaccinated tennis stars?

    Why are vaccine passports ruled out for the HOC?

    Why are some Premier League clubs coy about player vaccination status?

    It seems like there are lot of 'ignorant cretins' around....
    It's true:

    We have one on here who believes that invermectim is some kind of panacea; another who thinks that waves of infection are caused by covid acting with agency; one loon who actually wishes Trump was still President; and a couple of total retards who somehow think that vaccines and masks don't save lives.

    Cretins are everywhere.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,507

    F1: Channel 4 highlights put back to 9pm :p

    til 9:05?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,735
    edited August 2021
    JERUSALEM, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Israel on Sunday began offering a COVID-19 booster to children as young as 12, and its prime minister said a campaign that began a month ago among seniors has slowed a rise in severe illness caused by the Delta variant.

    Reuters
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839
    edited August 2021
    Alistair said:

    Despite Scotland's soaring numbers they are still only at about 70% (but still rising) of the North East's recent surge or London's winter surge.

    And if all that's happening is it burning unchecked through kids, the rate at which it seeks out the residuum of unprotected and poorly protected elderly ought still to be quite low. Hence the fact that none of the Scottish hospitals are on fire.

    That said, this evidently isn't going to calm down properly until antibody prevalence is somewhere very close to 100% of the entire population, including primary school kids and infants. Even if the JCVI finally extracts digit from rectum and authorises jabs for the 12-15 age group, this is still going to take some time.
  • Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
    Do we know for certain spaceX is profitable and how much? I honestly don't know the answer.
    Its not in the public domain.

    But from the information that's out there I think its safe to say their rocket launches are already profitable now. They're re-investing a fortune in StarLink which will likely then turn a profit in the future. But just because they're investing in StarLink doesn't mean that they're running an underlying loss - they are investing a lot for the future so they are running an accounting and possibly cashflow loss but building the business while doing so.

    Once they finish investing in StarLink and it goes live they have a real possibility of generating revenues akin to AWS - or even putting AWS in the shade.
  • JERUSALEM, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Israel on Sunday began offering a COVID-19 booster to children as young as 12, and its prime minister said a campaign that began a month ago among seniors has slowed a rise in severe illness caused by the Delta variant.

    Reuters

    And we are still dicking about.....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,735
    Prof. Christina Pagel
    @chrischirp
    ·
    15m
    the big question is whether Scotland has enough immunity that such rapid increases (doubled in last week) cannot be sustained for long, even with no other restrictions.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,628

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
    Do we know for certain spaceX is profitable and how much? I honestly don't know the answer.
    I think that depends on definition. I can't see F9 operations being unprofitable now - though I doubt it's as profitable as some claim. However, they are chucking billions at SH/SS and other developments.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,794
    F1 official Twitter feed indicates the clock was stopped to try and get a 1 hour race done today.

    That'd be for half points, almost certainly.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
    Do we know for certain spaceX is profitable and how much? I honestly don't know the answer.
    I saw some hard numbers a couple of years ago. But in a confidential setting.

    I think t wouldn't be breaking any confidences to say

    - Without R&D they are laughing
    - The biggest profits are not in the launches themselves, but in the ancillary services associated with launch

    Both of those a re fairly common knowledge, now.

    Note that they have slowed production of F9 first stages to a trickle - also a massive slowdown in Merlin engine production. Since they are re-using stages more and more. Which mean their launch costs a re actually falling with time....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,628

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
    Do we know for certain spaceX is profitable and how much? I honestly don't know the answer.
    Its not in the public domain.

    But from the information that's out there I think its safe to say their rocket launches are already profitable now. They're re-investing a fortune in StarLink which will likely then turn a profit in the future. But just because they're investing in StarLink doesn't mean that they're running an underlying loss - they are investing a lot for the future so they are running an accounting and possibly cashflow loss but building the business while doing so.

    Once they finish investing in StarLink and it goes live they have a real possibility of generating revenues akin to AWS - or even putting AWS in the shade.
    As long as it doesn't rain with Starlink, of you don't have pigeons nearby ... ;)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,735

    JERUSALEM, Aug 29 (Reuters) - Israel on Sunday began offering a COVID-19 booster to children as young as 12, and its prime minister said a campaign that began a month ago among seniors has slowed a rise in severe illness caused by the Delta variant.

    Reuters

    And we are still dicking about.....
    Israelis seem to think there has been definite waning with Pfizer. But they did a three week interval iirc and not the 12 we did.

    I think we will be doing boosters this autumn.
  • Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
    Do we know for certain spaceX is profitable and how much? I honestly don't know the answer.
    Its not in the public domain.

    But from the information that's out there I think its safe to say their rocket launches are already profitable now. They're re-investing a fortune in StarLink which will likely then turn a profit in the future. But just because they're investing in StarLink doesn't mean that they're running an underlying loss - they are investing a lot for the future so they are running an accounting and possibly cashflow loss but building the business while doing so.

    Once they finish investing in StarLink and it goes live they have a real possibility of generating revenues akin to AWS - or even putting AWS in the shade.
    As long as it doesn't rain with Starlink, of you don't have pigeons nearby ... ;)
    We have similar issues with Sky.

    We still have Sky though.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198
    edited August 2021

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
  • But there's "losing money" and there's "losing money".

    If the underlying business is unprofitable then you have a problem.

    If the underlying business is profitable, but you're spending so much in R&D and investing in new facilities etc to pay in advance for future sales and generate future profits then that is a good thing.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,492

    For the fifth day in a row, the number of covid cases reported in England is down compared to a week earlier. But UK-wide figure continues to increase thanks to record (and growing) number of infections in Scotland.

    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1431996435373957120?s=20

    On Monday, in a spelling mistake laden post, I predicted that England cases would peek on 'that day or in the next for days' do I get a prise?

    Todays numbers 22,501 is down form 25,952 which is a drop of 3,451 or 13.3% in a week.

    Suggesting we are over the 'herd immunity' threshold, for our current arrangements. how much will schools going back change that? looking at Scotland then yes quite a lot! But, and this is just speculation, perhaps as England is over the initial heard immunity threshold, not quite as bad Scotland?

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
    Do we know for certain spaceX is profitable and how much? I honestly don't know the answer.
    Its not in the public domain.

    But from the information that's out there I think its safe to say their rocket launches are already profitable now. They're re-investing a fortune in StarLink which will likely then turn a profit in the future. But just because they're investing in StarLink doesn't mean that they're running an underlying loss - they are investing a lot for the future so they are running an accounting and possibly cashflow loss but building the business while doing so.

    Once they finish investing in StarLink and it goes live they have a real possibility of generating revenues akin to AWS - or even putting AWS in the shade.
    As long as it doesn't rain with Starlink, of you don't have pigeons nearby ... ;)
    Coo!
  • I love the joke in Silicon Valley about being wanting to move from pre-revenue to trying to make money being treated with absolute horror...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    I think he owns a very special pair of sunglasses that completely blocks out certain bits of reality.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    UK cases by specimen date

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    UK local R

    image
  • Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Vaccines allow people to move from the not infected stage to the infected stage with about 95% less pain and risk.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,628

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I should have caveated with excluding public money.

    Tesla got massive subsidiaries in the early days. Have the profits now exceeded this?

    That isn't to do down the achievements, just interesting thought experiment, how much money has he actually made in "real" profit so far.
    SpaceX make a lot of money from public money but its public money that was going to be spent either way. The public has spent on space launches etc for over sixty years now and SpaceX are doing so profitably at much lower cost to the public purse than what was being paid previously. SpaceX are profitable and that's better for public costs.

    So should those revenues be excluded or included? As they'll be revenues SpaceX likely can generate for decades to come.
    Do we know for certain spaceX is profitable and how much? I honestly don't know the answer.
    Its not in the public domain.

    But from the information that's out there I think its safe to say their rocket launches are already profitable now. They're re-investing a fortune in StarLink which will likely then turn a profit in the future. But just because they're investing in StarLink doesn't mean that they're running an underlying loss - they are investing a lot for the future so they are running an accounting and possibly cashflow loss but building the business while doing so.

    Once they finish investing in StarLink and it goes live they have a real possibility of generating revenues akin to AWS - or even putting AWS in the shade.
    As long as it doesn't rain with Starlink, of you don't have pigeons nearby ... ;)
    We have similar issues with Sky.

    We still have Sky though.
    Sky for broadcast should be a lot less susceptible, due to buffering. The Internet can be particularly susceptible to latency problems caused by intermittent drop-outs that you might not notice with Sky.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198

    kinabalu said:

    The Michael Gove pics are of a man having a full blown mid life crisis, if not a mental breakdown.

    Yes it looks 'likely' (per either mine or DavidL's PT definition of the word). But perhaps some great work will be born of it. This sometimes happens with an artist and Mikey Gove is surely that. Out of an intense, off-the-rails fugue state lasting many days and nights might there come an approach to Social Care and Scottish Independence so creative and otherworldly as to blow everyone on all sides of politics away? If so, nobody will be quibbling about how he got there.
    You're exhibiting a level of optimism beyond the call of duty.
    I suppose so. Probably he was just partying on down with nothing profound going on in his head.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    UK case summary

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    UK deaths

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021

    But there's "losing money" and there's "losing money".

    If the underlying business is unprofitable then you have a problem.

    If the underlying business is profitable, but you're spending so much in R&D and investing in new facilities etc to pay in advance for future sales and generate future profits then that is a good thing.
    My one big concern with Tesla is all the R&D money on full self driving. You only have to see waymo to see what an absolute money pit it is. Musk just won't entertain the idea of saying no our tech will allow brilliant driver assist, he over ramps FSD is only a few months away.

    I much prefer Comma.ai mental owner, George Hotz, on this, where basically they say ultimately self driving, but in the meantime we keep being realistic and delivering an increasingly good driver assist experience product. And comma.ai is already profitable.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    UK hospitals

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  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,628

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    I think he owns a very special pair of sunglasses that completely blocks out certain bits of reality.
    The problem is: I think many (all?) of us do. We all like to think we're logical and rational, but we all have certain shibboleths. It's just that my belief that Apple is the source of all evil in technology doesn't affect people as much as anti-vaxxery.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    Age related data

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    Age related data scaled to 100K

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  • btw Donald Trump is not an anti-vaxxer. He has been vaccinated and urged his supporters to get the vaccine.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    UK R

    image
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,385
    edited August 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    Quite so, I wasn't aware that Laurence Fox and his admirers were medical professionals. Far from it. This is a typical Lozza contribution from the other day:
    In the end, it will be the unvaccinated that preserve the remnants of what used to be a liberal democracy.

    I wonder if our contrarian friend supports Lozza's sentiment?
  • kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    Quite so, I wasn't aware that Lawrence Fox and his admirers were medical professionals. Far from it. This is a typical Lozza contribution from the other day:
    In the end, it will be the unvaccinated that preserve the remnants of what used to be a liberal democracy.

    I wonder if our contrarian friend supports Lozza's sentiment?
    There is an interesting PhD in antivaxxer radicalisation. We are seeing in all major western countries.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    Quite so, I wasn't aware that Lawrence Fox and his admirers were medical professionals. Far from it. This is a typical Lozza contribution from the other day:
    In the end, it will be the unvaccinated that preserve the remnants of what used to be a liberal democracy.

    I wonder if our contrarian friend supports Lozza's sentiment?
    The inability to use that and who properly is annoying enough in itself.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Michael Gove pics are of a man having a full blown mid life crisis, if not a mental breakdown.

    Yes it looks 'likely' (per either mine or DavidL's PT definition of the word). But perhaps some great work will be born of it. This sometimes happens with an artist and Mikey Gove is surely that. Out of an intense, off-the-rails fugue state lasting many days and nights might there come an approach to Social Care and Scottish Independence so creative and otherworldly as to blow everyone on all sides of politics away? If so, nobody will be quibbling about how he got there.
    You're exhibiting a level of optimism beyond the call of duty.
    I suppose so. Probably he was just partying on down with nothing profound going on in his head.
    One amusing point about the ageing of modern music is, for example, going to a Metallica concert.

    Where you see the startled expressions on the teenagers heading to the mosh pit, when they realise that granddad over there has the *original* t-shirt for the first concert at which a certain song was played...

  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    Quite so, I wasn't aware that Lawrence Fox and his admirers were medical professionals. Far from it. This is a typical Lozza contribution from the other day:
    In the end, it will be the unvaccinated that preserve the remnants of what used to be a liberal democracy.

    I wonder if our contrarian friend supports Lozza's sentiment?
    There is an interesting PhD in antivaxxer radicalisation. We are seeing in all major western countries.
    There have been a number done on the spiral of self-radicalisation. For various topics.

    The main thing seems to be that, thanks to the internet, it is much easier to close your mind to "outside information" which is where the spiral really starts to get going.
  • btw Donald Trump is not an anti-vaxxer. He has been vaccinated and urged his supporters to get the vaccine.

    He's not stupid or gullible enough to be antivaxx himself.

    He just preys on the stupid and the gullible.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Michael Gove pics are of a man having a full blown mid life crisis, if not a mental breakdown.

    Yes it looks 'likely' (per either mine or DavidL's PT definition of the word). But perhaps some great work will be born of it. This sometimes happens with an artist and Mikey Gove is surely that. Out of an intense, off-the-rails fugue state lasting many days and nights might there come an approach to Social Care and Scottish Independence so creative and otherworldly as to blow everyone on all sides of politics away? If so, nobody will be quibbling about how he got there.
    You're exhibiting a level of optimism beyond the call of duty.
    I suppose so. Probably he was just partying on down with nothing profound going on in his head.
    One amusing point about the ageing of modern music is, for example, going to a Metallica concert.

    Where you see the startled expressions on the teenagers heading to the mosh pit, when they realise that granddad over there has the *original* t-shirt for the first concert at which a certain song was played...

    I always chuckle at the punks who can't grow the big mohawk anymore, but refuse to give in and try to make the best of what they have left to form one.....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    I once had tremendous fun getting some (UK) people lay into Seventh Day Adventists - they were all up for persecuting the horrible, bigoted etc etc

    Until I showed them a picture myself at the local (London) Seventh Day Adventist meet-the-neighbours thing....
    Always playing tricks on earnest bean peasants, you are. I sense it ranks quite high on your list of hobbies.
    I think of it as educating people. When they saw who they had been shitting on, you could almost see a lightbulb going on.. in some of them.

    History is full of people saying "I can't be bad because I am a noble person with noble ideals. Now, slaughter all those unbelievers."
    Well I'm not coming to any of your soirees. Complete minefield. Utter a little progressive sentiment and risk getting abjectly humiliated by Darth Vader at the head of the table. No thank you. I'll stick to the Hampstead crap van. Crepe van.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    I think he owns a very special pair of sunglasses that completely blocks out certain bits of reality.
    The problem is: I think many (all?) of us do. We all like to think we're logical and rational, but we all have certain shibboleths. It's just that my belief that Apple is the source of all evil in technology doesn't affect people as much as anti-vaxxery.
    LOL - but there is an element of truth there. Then again, they just might make privacy fashionable...

    But since my vaccination - MUST! BUY! ZUNE!!!!!!

  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,005

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    Why would you posit getting and surviving Covid as an alternative to vaccines?

    Its not either/or, if you have a vaccine, you're far more likely to survive Covid.
    I don't posit it as an alternative for most people, but I don;t see why you need a vaccine if you have had covid.

    For healthy children between 12 and 15 I definitely would say that getting covid is an alternative to having an MRNA vaccine. Much better and more durable protection, almost no reinfection.
    Its not better, its far, far worse. A 12 to 15 year old could die from getting Covid.

    A vaccine protects them and then if they get infected they can very easily fight it off and have two forms of protection.
    They could also die from getting the vaccine. Its very rare, but it does happen. Are there medium or long term effects? Probably not, but you cannot say for sure, because you don;t have the data and you know you don't. And so you are taking a gamble with the lives of the very young, when there simply is no need to.
    In the world the rest of us inhabit, 5000 hospitalised per million is a considerably larger number than 60-70 hospitalised per million.

    For clarity, the comparison looks kind of like this:



    And 15-20 dead per million (with 3 million 12-15s in the UK) equals somewhere between 45 and 60 dead children.

    And with the best measurement of long-term side-effects from covid (which, fortunately, do not seem to be anywhere near the 20%+ feared), we're looking at a couple of percent of those infected ending up with prolonged mind-fog, pain, or serious fatigue. So maybe 30,000-60,000 of them.

    Let's be clear; you're advocating a course of action which we know should result in 45-60 dead 12-15-year-olds, 15,000 of them hospitalised, and 30,000-60,000 of them with long-term side effects.

    In order to avoid the "gamble" of maybe 150-200 of them hospitalised with transitory myocarditis (which, to be clear, has seen full recoveries in every case so far and a median time of 1 day in hospital) with so low a death rate that we probably wouldn't see any, and in case of highly improbable long-term side-effects (which are extremely improbable to appear months down the line given how vaccines work in comparison to other medications).

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    @PoliticsForAlI
    Police cars revolving light | NEW: The doorman at the Aberdeen club is claiming Gove tried to avoid paying the £5 entry fee by boasting he was the “Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster”.

    Via
    @DailyMirror

    Much as I dislike Gove we’ve all done something like this. In the mid-90s I tried to get into a club in St Petersburg by pretending I was on the crew of Goldeneye.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Michael Gove pics are of a man having a full blown mid life crisis, if not a mental breakdown.

    Yes it looks 'likely' (per either mine or DavidL's PT definition of the word). But perhaps some great work will be born of it. This sometimes happens with an artist and Mikey Gove is surely that. Out of an intense, off-the-rails fugue state lasting many days and nights might there come an approach to Social Care and Scottish Independence so creative and otherworldly as to blow everyone on all sides of politics away? If so, nobody will be quibbling about how he got there.
    You're exhibiting a level of optimism beyond the call of duty.
    I suppose so. Probably he was just partying on down with nothing profound going on in his head.
    One amusing point about the ageing of modern music is, for example, going to a Metallica concert.

    Where you see the startled expressions on the teenagers heading to the mosh pit, when they realise that granddad over there has the *original* t-shirt for the first concert at which a certain song was played...

    I always chuckle at the punks who can't grow the big mohawk anymore, but refuse to give in and try to make the best of what they have left to form one.....
    The number of fans who don't know that this was actually an adaption to circumstances....

    image
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,839

    btw Donald Trump is not an anti-vaxxer. He has been vaccinated and urged his supporters to get the vaccine.

    He's not stupid or gullible enough to be antivaxx himself.

    He just preys on the stupid and the gullible.
    Except wasn't he booed recently at a rally for trying to encourage his supporters to accept the vaccines?

    The revolution devours itself, on the right as well as the left.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    Quite so, I wasn't aware that Lawrence Fox and his admirers were medical professionals. Far from it. This is a typical Lozza contribution from the other day:
    In the end, it will be the unvaccinated that preserve the remnants of what used to be a liberal democracy.

    I wonder if our contrarian friend supports Lozza's sentiment?
    There is an interesting PhD in antivaxxer radicalisation. We are seeing in all major western countries.
    I think there are tons of social psychologists who've been working on the issue for years from multiple perspectives. Public health academics have been studying the anti-vaxxer phenomenon for years, even if the type of person associated with it has changed since COVID and Trump. And look at Dan Kahan's work on cultural cognition, or Jonathan Haidt's work on morality and culture, or Jonah Berger's work on openness to persuasion. And those are just key people and strands of work I can reel off the top of my head. There must be loads more I am completely unaware of.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    Quite so, I wasn't aware that Lawrence Fox and his admirers were medical professionals. Far from it. This is a typical Lozza contribution from the other day:
    In the end, it will be the unvaccinated that preserve the remnants of what used to be a liberal democracy.

    I wonder if our contrarian friend supports Lozza's sentiment?
    There is an interesting PhD in antivaxxer radicalisation. We are seeing in all major western countries.
    I think there are tons of social psychologists who've been working on the issue for years from multiple perspectives. Public health academics have been studying the anti-vaxxer phenomenon for years, even if the type of person associated with it has changed since COVID and Trump. And look at Dan Kahan's work on cultural cognition, or Jonathan Haidt's work on morality and culture, or Jonah Berger's work on openness to persuasion. And those are just key people and strands of work I can reel off the top of my head. There must be loads more I am completely unaware of.
    I meant to say current covid antivaxxer via the internet. It seems to have dragged quite a wide range of people down the rabbit hole.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,315
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    I once had tremendous fun getting some (UK) people lay into Seventh Day Adventists - they were all up for persecuting the horrible, bigoted etc etc

    Until I showed them a picture myself at the local (London) Seventh Day Adventist meet-the-neighbours thing....
    Always playing tricks on earnest bean peasants, you are. I sense it ranks quite high on your list of hobbies.
    I think of it as educating people. When they saw who they had been shitting on, you could almost see a lightbulb going on.. in some of them.

    History is full of people saying "I can't be bad because I am a noble person with noble ideals. Now, slaughter all those unbelievers."
    Well I'm not coming to any of your soirees. Complete minefield. Utter a little progressive sentiment and risk getting abjectly humiliated by Darth Vader at the head of the table. No thank you. I'll stick to the Hampstead crap van. Crepe van.
    {catches broom handled Mauser}

    "We would be honoured if you would join us"
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,183

    Further proof that The Guardian is a joke.

    ‘The smartest person in any room anywhere’: in defence of Elon Musk, by Douglas Coupland

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/29/the-smartest-person-in-any-room-anywhere-in-defence-of-elon-musk-by-douglas-coupland

    I mean we all know the smartest person in the room isn't Musk but a certain PBer.

    Has anybody totally up the net profits all his companies* over the years have actually made? I bet it is barely positive (if at all). Yet he is a billionaire. Is that genius or snake oil.....or both....

    And I bet he owns NFTs....

    * while he has been involved i.e. Paypal he left way before they became what they are today.
    Tesla are profitable - the reason for nearly all the past losses has been break-neck expansion.

    SpaceX are insanely profitable - they can launch for less money and still make a bigger profit than anyone else. On the planet. No-one is even vaguely challenging them at the moment.

    Starlink is nearly out of beta. Given the proven performance levels, they will capture a small percentage of the... entire internet connectivity of the planet.
    I agree 100% with you on SpaceX/Starlink.

    I'm not so convinced by Tesla. Or rather, I think Tesla will probably be the number one car company in the world in fifteen years time, but that won't necessarily be that profitable a place to be.

    The issue being two fold: one, cars aren't that high-tech, and there's not really that much difference between a Tesla and an Audi; and two, the automobile sector is one of the most protectionist in the world. Whether it's the US tariffs on "light trucks" (i.e. SUVs) or the EU on regular cars or China's requirements that everything should be sourced locally or simply the insane subsidies available for domestic manufacturing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    The Michael Gove pics are of a man having a full blown mid life crisis, if not a mental breakdown.

    Yes it looks 'likely' (per either mine or DavidL's PT definition of the word). But perhaps some great work will be born of it. This sometimes happens with an artist and Mikey Gove is surely that. Out of an intense, off-the-rails fugue state lasting many days and nights might there come an approach to Social Care and Scottish Independence so creative and otherworldly as to blow everyone on all sides of politics away? If so, nobody will be quibbling about how he got there.
    You're exhibiting a level of optimism beyond the call of duty.
    I suppose so. Probably he was just partying on down with nothing profound going on in his head.
    One amusing point about the ageing of modern music is, for example, going to a Metallica concert.

    Where you see the startled expressions on the teenagers heading to the mosh pit, when they realise that granddad over there has the *original* t-shirt for the first concert at which a certain song was played...

    I always chuckle at the punks who can't grow the big mohawk anymore, but refuse to give in and try to make the best of what they have left to form one.....
    The number of fans who don't know that this was actually an adaption to circumstances....

    image
    Saw them before they became famous....didn't think they would come to much....
  • The race starts at 5:17.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,735
    DougSeal said:


    @PoliticsForAlI
    Police cars revolving light | NEW: The doorman at the Aberdeen club is claiming Gove tried to avoid paying the £5 entry fee by boasting he was the “Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster”.

    Via
    @DailyMirror

    Much as I dislike Gove we’ve all done something like this. In the mid-90s I tried to get into a club in St Petersburg by pretending I was on the crew of Goldeneye.

    Isn't Gove going to say all this was research for his vaxports for nightclubs project?
  • The problem with Trump is not that he's antivaxx (he's not that stupid), but that he's tried to win the anti-vaxx votes by playing it off with a nudge and a wink rather than combatting antivaxxery.

    In a parallel universe Trump could have successfully helped push vaccines to his followers on an "America First" principle: 'These vaccines WORK and THANKS TO ME, YOUR GREATEST EVER PRESIDENT, America ordered them FIRST to save AMERICANS LIVES FIRST. Go TODAY and get an AMERICAN VACCINE to defeat the CHINA VIRUS and KEEP AMERICA GREAT'.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,042
    edited August 2021
    What the biggest band / act you saw live before they became massive?

    Mrs U years ago tried to get to me go and see this ginger bloke called Ed playing some small crappy venue....she played a couple of tracks and I said nah, not for me, so she went with a friend.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,628
    TimT said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The data says that black and ethnic minority citizens are less likely to have been vaccinated than whites in America.


    Will Mike and TSE be calling black and ethnic minority citizens who are resistant to taking vaccines ''ignorant cretins? ''

    Or is that insult merely for people they would despise in any case, simply because they are Trump supporters...??

    You’re putting word in Mike’s mouth.
    This is the context for his ‘cretins’ epithet:
    Daniel Darling, senior vice president of communications for the National Religious Broadcasters, was fired Friday (Aug. 27) after refusing to admit his pro-vaccine statements were mistaken…

    That’s the idiocy you’re defending.
    I am not defending anti-vaxxers. I never have. Vaccines are very effective, although its becoming clearer that they are not as effective as getting and surviving covid.

    I am simply asking why one subset of the vaccine hesitant (Trump supporting whites), is called 'ignorant cretins' and not all of those subsets.

    You do realise 1 in 3 American evangelicals are not white? Not particularly different to the US population as a whole. So when someone is criticising evangelicals the only link to white/not white criticism from that comment exists in your head, not from the person who said it.

    https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/september/1-in-3-american-evangelicals-person-of-color-prri-atlas.html
    Very few blacks are Trump voters though and yet he mysteriously appears in the header. Its pretty clear who is being singled out here, and its pretty clear why. Fair enough.
    There’s nothing mysterious about it.
    There is a very obvious distinction between hesitancy and denialism, which a i’ve pointed out to you a couple of times in this thread. The latter has become part of a political identity, and is utterly irrational.
    Oh I see so all vaccine hesitant people are vaccine hesitant, but some are more justifiably vaccine hesitant than others. The more 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant being black and ethnic minority people, and less 'justifiably' vaccine hesitant white Trump supporters. In other words prejudice, plain and simple. Lets call it what it is.

    And as I point out below the only anti-vaxxers I have seen online are medical professionals. IE doctors. Are these people Trump supporters? who the heck knows.
    That's remarkable if you've been able to see only the tiny proportion of online antivax nuttery that comes from medical professionals.
    Quite so, I wasn't aware that Lawrence Fox and his admirers were medical professionals. Far from it. This is a typical Lozza contribution from the other day:
    In the end, it will be the unvaccinated that preserve the remnants of what used to be a liberal democracy.

    I wonder if our contrarian friend supports Lozza's sentiment?
    There is an interesting PhD in antivaxxer radicalisation. We are seeing in all major western countries.
    I think there are tons of social psychologists who've been working on the issue for years from multiple perspectives. Public health academics have been studying the anti-vaxxer phenomenon for years, even if the type of person associated with it has changed since COVID and Trump. And look at Dan Kahan's work on cultural cognition, or Jonathan Haidt's work on morality and culture, or Jonah Berger's work on openness to persuasion. And those are just key people and strands of work I can reel off the top of my head. There must be loads more I am completely unaware of.
    I fear that there's also money in it. One of my personal shibboleths is that the Kennedy Clan are, as a whole, a load of **** *******'s who should be ******* at the ****** as ******. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr only acts as a confirmatory piece of evidence.
This discussion has been closed.