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The Thursday front pages not good for the government – politicalbetting.com

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  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    New South Wales, which includes Sydney, reports 681 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase on record

    New Zealand's coronavirus outbreak more than doubles in size with 11 new cases, the biggest one-day increase since August 2020

    681 is too many. You simply won’t be able to control that with lockdowns. There will always be a couple of cases that you don’t know about.

  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,036

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited August 2021
    Fishing said:

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
    They're wrong and he's good.

    Biden ran on withdrawal. This was also the policy of Trump and Obama. Biden is getting it done, unlike Trump and Obama who both got suckered into kicking the can.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Whilst I don’t think the government has handled Afghanistan especially well, I’d be amazed if this makes any difference to public opinion on the parties. It feels like another example of the media being disconnected from the ordinary people. As sad as the situation is, this is really low down the list of priorities.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    America looks unbelievably diminished today.
    You missed Boris in the Commons today then?

    I don't personally believe either UK or US are diminished, but then I'm not Theresa May or Tom Tugenhadt.
    The UK has no power to do these sort of things unilaterally. The US does but decided not to.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    Not what Theresa, Tom and several others were suggesting though.
    They're wrong.

    What did Theresa ever manage to achieve unilaterally?

    Do you honestly believe for a fraction of a second that if Theresa was still PM we'd have remained after Biden's unilateral withdrawal decision?

    I don't and I don't think you honestly hand on heart believe that either. So why pretend we should listen to disgraced ex PMs like that?
    Always hard to be sure, but I doubt she’d have done anything differently. Note the silence from Blair. I can’t stand the guy and he is responsible for getting us into this, but he always says you should never say what you know you couldn’t have done if you’d been in power. He’s a realist and she is a fantasist.
  • tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    America looks unbelievably diminished today.
    You missed Boris in the Commons today then?

    I don't personally believe either UK or US are diminished, but then I'm not Theresa May or Tom Tugenhadt.
    The UK has no power to do these sort of things unilaterally. The US does but decided not to.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    Not what Theresa, Tom and several others were suggesting though.
    They're wrong.

    What did Theresa ever manage to achieve unilaterally?

    Do you honestly believe for a fraction of a second that if Theresa was still PM we'd have remained after Biden's unilateral withdrawal decision?

    I don't and I don't think you honestly hand on heart believe that either. So why pretend we should listen to disgraced ex PMs like that?
    Always hard to be sure, but I doubt she’d have done anything differently. Note the silence from Blair. I can’t stand the guy and he is responsible for getting us into this, but he always says you should never say what you know you couldn’t have done if you’d been in power. He’s a realist and she is a fantasist.
    As John Major said, as a former PM, it is hard to comment because you have not received the briefings. That would probably be true of Blair as well. I'd not read too much into it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    America looks unbelievably diminished today.
    You missed Boris in the Commons today then?

    I don't personally believe either UK or US are diminished, but then I'm not Theresa May or Tom Tugenhadt.
    The UK has no power to do these sort of things unilaterally. The US does but decided not to.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    Not what Theresa, Tom and several others were suggesting though.
    They're wrong.

    What did Theresa ever manage to achieve unilaterally?

    Do you honestly believe for a fraction of a second that if Theresa was still PM we'd have remained after Biden's unilateral withdrawal decision?

    I don't and I don't think you honestly hand on heart believe that either. So why pretend we should listen to disgraced ex PMs like that?
    Always hard to be sure, but I doubt she’d have done anything differently. Note the silence from Blair. I can’t stand the guy and he is responsible for getting us into this, but he always says you should never say what you know you couldn’t have done if you’d been in power. He’s a realist and she is a fantasist.
    As John Major said, as a former PM, it is hard to comment because you have not received the briefings. That would probably be true of Blair as well. I'd not read too much into it.
    Hasn’t stopped May from weighing in.
  • Fishing said:

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
    Biden got elected because he was not Trump and because Iowa messed up the Democrats' caucus.
  • rcs1000 said:

    I think people are getting carried away on the political implications of this. Sooner or later there will be another crisis somewhere else in the world, this time one that can be addressed by bombing some brown people, Biden will bomb some brown people, and the blob will be back on side.

    I’m sure this is right. Everyone tends to overreact.

    Still, Kamala’s silence is deafening
    I think this kind of illustrates the problem with her position, because not being seen talking about it much won't let her off the hook. Health-permitting if Biden is doing well he'll run again, and if he's not doing well then she'll be tainted too.
    Kamala's silence does not seem unusual, at least to this outsider. What does the Secretary of State (Blinken, their foreign secretary) say, or the Secretary for Defense (besides not planning to resign)? Or (remembering The West Wing) the Joint Chiefs (of the armed forces)?

    The people decrying Harris's silence are the ones who were telling us Harris is uniqely unpopular, so how do they expect her to bail out the President?
  • RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    America looks unbelievably diminished today.
    You missed Boris in the Commons today then?

    I don't personally believe either UK or US are diminished, but then I'm not Theresa May or Tom Tugenhadt.
    The UK has no power to do these sort of things unilaterally. The US does but decided not to.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    Not what Theresa, Tom and several others were suggesting though.
    They're wrong.

    What did Theresa ever manage to achieve unilaterally?

    Do you honestly believe for a fraction of a second that if Theresa was still PM we'd have remained after Biden's unilateral withdrawal decision?

    I don't and I don't think you honestly hand on heart believe that either. So why pretend we should listen to disgraced ex PMs like that?
    Remind us, what was the scandal that brought down Theresa May? Was it financial or sexual? She is not a "disgraced" former Prime Minister simply because you disagreed with her.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
    Biden got elected because he was not Trump and because Iowa messed up the Democrats' caucus.
    If Iowa had not been messed up, Buttigieg would have won the first two states, and would probably be President now.

    And given he served in Afghanistan, he probably would have done a better job of withdrawal.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
    Of course he's not good. He's an absolute pygmy compared to any of the last dozen occupants of the White House prior to Trump (and yes, I'm including Carter in my comparison).

    But he's not attempting to tear up the constitutional framework of the United States.

    I'm a moderately successful finance and business person. And I've learned exactly one useful thing in the last quarter century:

    Processes matter more than outcomes.

    If you want to get thin, focus on a routine (a process) that works for you. Don't focus on a goal weight.

    If you want a profitable company, focus on the processes that make your business work. Iterate and measure. But whatever you do, don't set a goal and attempt to manage around it.

    The United States political system worked because it was focused on processes, not outcomes. Trump offered the world, but in return for tearing up the systems and processes than made America great.

    Biden is bloody awful: weak and prevaricating and mentally incapable. But at least he believes in the system. And the system will chuck him out. And that means it's working.
    Wandering off-topic here but that is also the core message of the Atomic Habits self-help book – if you want better results, focus on systems not setting goals. (Possibly also Dominic Cummings.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
    Of course he's not good. He's an absolute pygmy compared to any of the last dozen occupants of the White House prior to Trump (and yes, I'm including Carter in my comparison).

    But he's not attempting to tear up the constitutional framework of the United States.

    I'm a moderately successful finance and business person. And I've learned exactly one useful thing in the last quarter century:

    Processes matter more than outcomes.

    If you want to get thin, focus on a routine (a process) that works for you. Don't focus on a goal weight.

    If you want a profitable company, focus on the processes that make your business work. Iterate and measure. But whatever you do, don't set a goal and attempt to manage around it.

    The United States political system worked because it was focused on processes, not outcomes. Trump offered the world, but in return for tearing up the systems and processes than made America great.

    Biden is bloody awful: weak and prevaricating and mentally incapable. But at least he believes in the system. And the system will chuck him out. And that means it's working.
    Wandering off-topic here but that is also the core message of the Atomic Habits self-help book – if you want better results, focus on systems not setting goals. (Possibly also Dominic Cummings.)
    There has to be a bit of both, otherwise you end up with the infuriating “Computer Says No” customer service mentality, or the “Lesslons have been Learned” approach to public sector screwups, where no-one gives a sh!t about outcomes.

    IMO the important thing is to find good people, and empower them to make decisions.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
    Of course he's not good. He's an absolute pygmy compared to any of the last dozen occupants of the White House prior to Trump (and yes, I'm including Carter in my comparison).

    But he's not attempting to tear up the constitutional framework of the United States.

    I'm a moderately successful finance and business person. And I've learned exactly one useful thing in the last quarter century:

    Processes matter more than outcomes.

    If you want to get thin, focus on a routine (a process) that works for you. Don't focus on a goal weight.

    If you want a profitable company, focus on the processes that make your business work. Iterate and measure. But whatever you do, don't set a goal and attempt to manage around it.

    The United States political system worked because it was focused on processes, not outcomes. Trump offered the world, but in return for tearing up the systems and processes than made America great.

    Biden is bloody awful: weak and prevaricating and mentally incapable. But at least he believes in the system. And the system will chuck him out. And that means it's working.
    Wandering off-topic here but that is also the core message of the Atomic Habits self-help book – if you want better results, focus on systems not setting goals. (Possibly also Dominic Cummings.)
    There has to be a bit of both, otherwise you end up with the infuriating “Computer Says No” customer service mentality, or the “Lesslons have been Learned” approach to public sector screwups, where no-one gives a sh!t about outcomes.

    IMO the important thing is to find good people, and empower them to make decisions.
    I reckon I’d be sacked from the civil service if I suggested that last bit.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    ...
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    America looks unbelievably diminished today.
    You missed Boris in the Commons today then?

    I don't personally believe either UK or US are diminished, but then I'm not Theresa May or Tom Tugenhadt.
    The UK has no power to do these sort of things unilaterally. The US does but decided not to.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    Not what Theresa, Tom and several others were suggesting though.
    They're wrong.

    What did Theresa ever manage to achieve unilaterally?

    Do you honestly believe for a fraction of a second that if Theresa was still PM we'd have remained after Biden's unilateral withdrawal decision?

    I don't and I don't think you honestly hand on heart believe that either. So why pretend we should listen to disgraced ex PMs like that?
    Always hard to be sure, but I doubt she’d have done anything differently. Note the silence from Blair. I can’t stand the guy and he is responsible for getting us into this, but he always says you should never say what you know you couldn’t have done if you’d been in power. He’s a realist and she is a fantasist.
    As John Major said, as a former PM, it is hard to comment because you have not received the briefings. That would probably be true of Blair as well. I'd not read too much into it.
    Hasn’t stopped May from weighing in.

    Yes, dish best served cold etc etc.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
    Of course he's not good. He's an absolute pygmy compared to any of the last dozen occupants of the White House prior to Trump (and yes, I'm including Carter in my comparison).

    But he's not attempting to tear up the constitutional framework of the United States.

    I'm a moderately successful finance and business person. And I've learned exactly one useful thing in the last quarter century:

    Processes matter more than outcomes.

    If you want to get thin, focus on a routine (a process) that works for you. Don't focus on a goal weight.

    If you want a profitable company, focus on the processes that make your business work. Iterate and measure. But whatever you do, don't set a goal and attempt to manage around it.

    The United States political system worked because it was focused on processes, not outcomes. Trump offered the world, but in return for tearing up the systems and processes than made America great.

    Biden is bloody awful: weak and prevaricating and mentally incapable. But at least he believes in the system. And the system will chuck him out. And that means it's working.
    Wandering off-topic here but that is also the core message of the Atomic Habits self-help book – if you want better results, focus on systems not setting goals. (Possibly also Dominic Cummings.)
    There has to be a bit of both, otherwise you end up with the infuriating “Computer Says No” customer service mentality, or the “Lesslons have been Learned” approach to public sector screwups, where no-one gives a sh!t about outcomes.

    IMO the important thing is to find good people, and empower them to make decisions.
    If the processes aren’t giving you the outcome you’re after, then you need to reassess them.

    But you must never forget that it’s the process that you are optimizing towards.
  • kle4 said:

    I'd say Raab should be most worried, though Boris doesn't seen keen on a reshuffle, let alone of his First Secretary.

    In a different decade, Raab would have fallen on his sword by now. But Johnson can't really sack him for going on holiday when he did pretty much the same thing. But that's two of the top table who really shouldn't be there (Raab and Patel) now?

    On Topic- the interesting one is The Star. Up to now, they have played their criticism of the government for laughs. This is straighter, and that feels worse.
    The interesting one is The Times.

    Anyone serious knows this is about Biden, not our government. Realistically once Biden pulled out there was no way the UK could or should remain without the USA. Not a single sane person says otherwise.

    But sure, "Raab should have fallen on his sword" for Biden's decision . . . ookay then 😕
    The Foreign Secretary should not have gone on holiday (against, it is said, Foreign Office advice) while Afghanistan was brewing up. He should resign not because of Biden's decision but for deriliction of duty. And if not for that, he should resign because his department – both FCO and MI6 – did not have a proper handle on events.

    Put more simply, Raab should resign either because he knew what was happening and went on holiday anyway, or because he did not know. But honour is no longer in fashion in this Cabinet.
  • Questions for the public inquiry. First, why is Boris resisting an inquiry?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
  • DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. HTH. Though Boris is, as was said earlier on this thread about The Donald, sui generis.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    DavidL said:

    Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Easily outclassed by BoZo

    He is a much worse PM than May, just as Priti is a much worse Home Secretary.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990

    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.

    It really is though...

    Boris Johnson so far on Afghanistan:

    -We were fully prepared
    -We didn't foresee it happening
    -We are doing everything we can
    -We can't do much without US
    -We were on holiday
    -We are working around the clock

    #Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1427918836947374081
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. HTH. Though Boris is, as was said earlier on this thread about The Donald, sui generis.

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. HTH. Though Boris is, as was said earlier on this thread about The Donald, sui generis.
    Cameron made mistakes. Keeping May as HS was not the least of them. I am no fan of Patel but May showed a cruel indifference to decency, consequences and the British virtue of fairness. She constantly tried to stack the deck against the asylum seeker and then punish them when desperation drove them beyond the law.

    As someone who generally votes Conservative she was and is an embarrassment.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,747

    .

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    America looks unbelievably diminished today.
    You missed Boris in the Commons today then?

    I don't personally believe either UK or US are diminished, but then I'm not Theresa May or Tom Tugenhadt.
    A bitter has-been and an uncompromising zealot, neither of whom need to pay attention to real world compromises and can use their soapboxes as they please.

    Do you think that a PM May (or even a PM Tugenhadt) after two decades in Afghanistan, having faced the Biden withdrawal which wasn't even discussed with the PM before the decision was made, would have said "the UK is staying behind, we'll continue to fight the Taliban unilaterally ourselves".
    “Zealot”. Riiight.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895
    edited August 2021
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. HTH. Though Boris is, as was said earlier on this thread about The Donald, sui generis.

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    David Cameron was our worst Prime Minister since Lord North. HTH. Though Boris is, as was said earlier on this thread about The Donald, sui generis.
    Cameron made mistakes. Keeping May as HS was not the least of them. I am no fan of Patel but May showed a cruel indifference to decency, consequences and the British virtue of fairness. She constantly tried to stack the deck against the asylum seeker and then punish them when desperation drove them beyond the law.

    As someone who generally votes Conservative she was and is an embarrassment.
    David Cameron lost Europe. He almost lost Scotland. That is enough to condemn him as the worst since Lord North. Beyond that, and looking past his Home Secretary, Cameron seemed to have no appreciation of and no control over what Lansley was doing to the NHS, Gove at Education or IDS with UC, whether or not he'd have approved if he had known. He also tried to rig the electoral system.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
    It looks like the vaccines are more effective against symptoms, than infection or transmissibility. Looks like we are all going to get this at some point.

    I’ve just been told well be getting boosters out here, six months after the second dose, which was three weeks after the first dose - Pfizer vaccine. It appears, with the benefit of hindsight, that the three-week gap was too short, but that’s what was trialled. Good (and brave, at the time) call by the UK to go with the longer dose interval.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,817
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:
    I thought the grown-up professionals were supposed to be back in charge of America?
    Yes it's almost as if those who said Biden was a lightweight hasbeen who got elected only by being not-Trump were right.

    I don't doubt he's better than his predecessor, but that doesn't make him particularly good.
    Of course he's not good. He's an absolute pygmy compared to any of the last dozen occupants of the White House prior to Trump (and yes, I'm including Carter in my comparison).

    But he's not attempting to tear up the constitutional framework of the United States.

    I'm a moderately successful finance and business person. And I've learned exactly one useful thing in the last quarter century:

    Processes matter more than outcomes.

    If you want to get thin, focus on a routine (a process) that works for you. Don't focus on a goal weight.

    If you want a profitable company, focus on the processes that make your business work. Iterate and measure. But whatever you do, don't set a goal and attempt to manage around it.

    The United States political system worked because it was focused on processes, not outcomes. Trump offered the world, but in return for tearing up the systems and processes than made America great.

    Biden is bloody awful: weak and prevaricating and mentally incapable. But at least he believes in the system. And the system will chuck him out. And that means it's working.
    Wandering off-topic here but that is also the core message of the Atomic Habits self-help book – if you want better results, focus on systems not setting goals. (Possibly also Dominic Cummings.)
    There has to be a bit of both, otherwise you end up with the infuriating “Computer Says No” customer service mentality, or the “Lesslons have been Learned” approach to public sector screwups, where no-one gives a sh!t about outcomes.

    IMO the important thing is to find good people, and empower them to make decisions.
    If the processes aren’t giving you the outcome you’re after, then you need to reassess them.

    But you must never forget that it’s the process that you are optimizing towards.
    Yes, the egg definitely comes before the chicken. If you want to change outcomes you focus not on the results but how the results are achieved. Otherwise you are willing the ends without the means.

    There has been some fascinating research done on this in the field of medical negligence. As someone who doesn’t mind a bit of chaos and has an instinctive hostility to bureaucracy, form filling and routine it was uncomfortable and thought provoking.

    Trump was chaos personified. He threatened the very system. Biden is merely painfully inept and incompetent.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    That cartoonist always does the same crap every day. He’s clearly forgotten what a character Mrs May was, when it was her turn in the big seat.

    On the other hand, Matt is on form this morning as always, two neighbours talking over the garden fence, with the caption “I’m still working from home, I’m shielding from a nasty new rail fare variant”

    Also, some very funny tributes and obituaries for comedian Sean Lock in the papers today.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Scott_xP said:

    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.

    It really is though...

    Boris Johnson so far on Afghanistan:

    -We were fully prepared
    -We didn't foresee it happening
    -We are doing everything we can
    -We can't do much without US
    -We were on holiday
    -We are working around the clock

    #Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1427918836947374081
    Looks like another job for Matt Lucas…..
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
    They know the risks. They tacitly accept them.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    Scott_xP said:

    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.

    It really is though...

    Boris Johnson so far on Afghanistan:

    -We were fully prepared
    -We didn't foresee it happening
    -We are doing everything we can
    -We can't do much without US
    -We were on holiday
    -We are working around the clock

    #Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1427918836947374081
    Nothing I could say to you would alter your opinion.
  • Sandpit said:


    Also, some very funny tributes and obituaries for comedian Sean Lock in the papers today.

    I liked Sean Lock (and posted his death to pb yesterday) but suspect most of the country that does not watch 8 Out of 10 Cats will be asking, Sean who?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Scott_xP said:

    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.

    It really is though...

    Boris Johnson so far on Afghanistan:

    -We were fully prepared
    -We didn't foresee it happening
    -We are doing everything we can
    -We can't do much without US
    -We were on holiday
    -We are working around the clock

    #Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1427918836947374081
    Ah, yet another hack who thinks that sarcastic retweeting is more important than grown-up debate about the terrible situation.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    .

    RobD said:

    Leon said:
    America looks unbelievably diminished today.
    You missed Boris in the Commons today then?

    I don't personally believe either UK or US are diminished, but then I'm not Theresa May or Tom Tugenhadt.
    The UK has no power to do these sort of things unilaterally. The US does but decided not to.
    Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    Not what Theresa, Tom and several others were suggesting though.
    They're wrong.

    What did Theresa ever manage to achieve unilaterally?

    Do you honestly believe for a fraction of a second that if Theresa was still PM we'd have remained after Biden's unilateral withdrawal decision?

    I don't and I don't think you honestly hand on heart believe that either. So why pretend we should listen to disgraced ex PMs like that?
    Always hard to be sure, but I doubt she’d have done anything differently. Note the silence from Blair. I can’t stand the guy and he is responsible for getting us into this…
    That too might have something to do with the silence. ?

  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    There is no end to the double standards of the press. We had the media fawning over Dubya in the last few years, including The Guardian, simply because he opposed Trump.

    Theresa May is far from a giant in any sense.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Sandpit said:


    Also, some very funny tributes and obituaries for comedian Sean Lock in the papers today.

    I liked Sean Lock (and posted his death to pb yesterday) but suspect most of the country that does not watch 8 Out of 10 Cats will be asking, Sean who?
    I saw him live a couple of times, maybe 15 years ago, very good show.

    The comedy spoof of Countdown is one of the funniest programmes on television, and definitely won’t be the same without his deadpan quips - many of which were very close to the line. I’d have loved to have gone to a recording of that, imagine there was an awful lot worse that never made the edit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
    It looks like the vaccines are more effective against symptoms, than infection or transmissibility. Looks like we are all going to get this at some point.

    I’ve just been told well be getting boosters out here, six months after the second dose, which was three weeks after the first dose - Pfizer vaccine. It appears, with the benefit of hindsight, that the three-week gap was too short, but that’s what was trialled. Good (and brave, at the time) call by the UK to go with the longer dose interval.
    It possibly didn’t make any difference with the Pfizer vaccine (though very probably did with AZN).
    1 more point, since the UK gave @Pfizer at 3-4 wks and 8-12 wks dosing schedules:
    "The study also suggested that the time between doses did not affect effectiveness in preventing new infections" but unclear if this pertains to Delta infections or overall..

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1428216300036190210
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.

    It really is though...

    Boris Johnson so far on Afghanistan:

    -We were fully prepared
    -We didn't foresee it happening
    -We are doing everything we can
    -We can't do much without US
    -We were on holiday
    -We are working around the clock

    #Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1427918836947374081
    Ah, yet another hack who thinks that sarcastic retweeting is more important than grown-up debate about the terrible situation.
    He’s from The Guardian, It’s compulsory. I’m just looking forward to Marina Hyde’s witty, edgy, oh so hilarious take on it all.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
    It looks like the vaccines are more effective against symptoms, than infection or transmissibility. Looks like we are all going to get this at some point.

    I’ve just been told well be getting boosters out here, six months after the second dose, which was three weeks after the first dose - Pfizer vaccine. It appears, with the benefit of hindsight, that the three-week gap was too short, but that’s what was trialled. Good (and brave, at the time) call by the UK to go with the longer dose interval.
    If the vaccine isn’t priming the immune system to react quickly in suppressing and eliminating the virus within your body, hence both reducing your load and your symptoms, it makes you wonder how exactly is it doing it?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Sandpit said:


    Also, some very funny tributes and obituaries for comedian Sean Lock in the papers today.

    I liked Sean Lock (and posted his death to pb yesterday) but suspect most of the country that does not watch 8 Out of 10 Cats will be asking, Sean who?
    I only know him from 15 Storeys High. Not even heard of 8 out of 10 cats.
  • On the wider political significance of yesterday's debate, I think we saw signs that Conservative MPs are starting to question Britain's diminished role. After 10 years (or more if we go back to the 1980s) of Tory defence cuts, we cannot operate independently of the United States. We are no longer a significant enough partner – despite the Special Relationship – to have been consulted or even briefed beforehand.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    On the wider political significance of yesterday's debate, I think we saw signs that Conservative MPs are starting to question Britain's diminished role. After 10 years (or more if we go back to the 1980s) of Tory defence cuts, we cannot operate independently of the United States. We are no longer a significant enough partner – despite the Special Relationship – to have been consulted or even briefed beforehand.

    Is our so called diminished role a bad thing ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.

    It really is though...

    Boris Johnson so far on Afghanistan:

    -We were fully prepared
    -We didn't foresee it happening
    -We are doing everything we can
    -We can't do much without US
    -We were on holiday
    -We are working around the clock

    #Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1427918836947374081
    The first two were also what our armed forces chief of staff said.
    (I think there has been an element of denial in the armed forces leadership about the Afghan situation for a while.)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,895
    edited August 2021
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:


    Also, some very funny tributes and obituaries for comedian Sean Lock in the papers today.

    I liked Sean Lock (and posted his death to pb yesterday) but suspect most of the country that does not watch 8 Out of 10 Cats will be asking, Sean who?
    I only know him from 15 Storeys High. Not even heard of 8 out of 10 cats.
    Then get thee to 4oD or whatever Channel 4's catch-up service is called this week. A treat awaits. Or just watch clips on Youtube.

    And what you want is 8 out of 10 cats Does Countdown which is funnier than 8otC itself (funnier than Countdown too). (HT @Sandpit)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    rcs1000 said:

    New South Wales, which includes Sydney, reports 681 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase on record

    New Zealand's coronavirus outbreak more than doubles in size with 11 new cases, the biggest one-day increase since August 2020

    681 is too many. You simply won’t be able to control that with lockdowns. There will always be a couple of cases that you don’t know about.

    Another dozen cases in NZ today, they only had one a couple of days ago. Very close to losing it there too, if the Aussie experience is anything to go by.

    At least we got mostly vaccinated before Delta came around, our antipodean neighbours are not going to be so lucky.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958

    Sandpit said:


    Also, some very funny tributes and obituaries for comedian Sean Lock in the papers today.

    I liked Sean Lock (and posted his death to pb yesterday) but suspect most of the country that does not watch 8 Out of 10 Cats will be asking, Sean who?
    Sound lad, Sean.

    https://twitter.com/honeymcel/status/1427956435393056770?s=21
  • Taz said:

    On the wider political significance of yesterday's debate, I think we saw signs that Conservative MPs are starting to question Britain's diminished role. After 10 years (or more if we go back to the 1980s) of Tory defence cuts, we cannot operate independently of the United States. We are no longer a significant enough partner – despite the Special Relationship – to have been consulted or even briefed beforehand.

    Is our so called diminished role a bad thing ?
    That is not the point, which is that it seems to have surprised and disappointed backbenchers who slept through the governments that took us there. Now, it could be argued that we should acknowledge our new position and cut our coat according to our cloth, on defence, intelligence, trade and diplomacy, or that we should strive to climb back up the table, but the short-term political significance might be the scales falling from MPs' eyes.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.

    It really is though...

    Boris Johnson so far on Afghanistan:

    -We were fully prepared
    -We didn't foresee it happening
    -We are doing everything we can
    -We can't do much without US
    -We were on holiday
    -We are working around the clock

    #Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1427918836947374081
    The first two were also what our armed forces chief of staff said.
    (I think there has been an element of denial in the armed forces leadership about the Afghan situation for a while.)
    Armed Forces senior leadership has spectacularly failed - Chief of Defence (Gen Carter) actually commanded about 15000 UK/US/Afghan troops in 2011 (and really bigged up its success for many years) - he has driven a massive push towards dependence on the US (stripping out UK logistics, remodelling Brigades along US lines, reducing infantry and armour manpower) thats really looking like a big fat cock up..... he needs to seriously consider his position
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    Am I the only person who thought Tugendhat’s performance hammy, mawkish and, well, a performance? I’ve no doubt he feels strongly about the subject but as I’ve observed about Starmer, it’s not enough to have sincere principles as a politician, you have to convince people that’s the case even if it means fluently faking it at times.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Taz said:

    On the wider political significance of yesterday's debate, I think we saw signs that Conservative MPs are starting to question Britain's diminished role. After 10 years (or more if we go back to the 1980s) of Tory defence cuts, we cannot operate independently of the United States. We are no longer a significant enough partner – despite the Special Relationship – to have been consulted or even briefed beforehand.

    Is our so called diminished role a bad thing ?
    That is not the point, which is that it seems to have surprised and disappointed backbenchers who slept through the governments that took us there. Now, it could be argued that we should acknowledge our new position and cut our coat according to our cloth, on defence, intelligence, trade and diplomacy, or that we should strive to climb back up the table, but the short-term political significance might be the scales falling from MPs' eyes.
    Which is a good thing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862

    Am I the only person who thought Tugendhat’s performance hammy, mawkish and, well, a performance? I’ve no doubt he feels strongly about the subject but as I’ve observed about Starmer, it’s not enough to have sincere principles as a politician, you have to convince people that’s the case even if it means fluently faking it at times.

    It was, and he was trying to make his points by way of anecdote. Which was powerful, and emotive, but for me a true heavyweight speech would have been one containing argument based on evidence.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Am I the only person who thought Tugendhat’s performance hammy, mawkish and, well, a performance? I’ve no doubt he feels strongly about the subject but as I’ve observed about Starmer, it’s not enough to have sincere principles as a politician, you have to convince people that’s the case even if it means fluently faking it at times.

    No, you’re not. I’m also finding it bizarre people elevating what is, to date, an average backbencher, to the level of senior statesman on the basis of his speech.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:


    Also, some very funny tributes and obituaries for comedian Sean Lock in the papers today.

    I liked Sean Lock (and posted his death to pb yesterday) but suspect most of the country that does not watch 8 Out of 10 Cats will be asking, Sean who?
    I only know him from 15 Storeys High. Not even heard of 8 out of 10 cats.
    Then get thee to 4oD or whatever Channel 4's catch-up service is called this week. A treat awaits. Or just watch clips on Youtube.

    And what you want is 8 out of 10 cats Does Countdown which is funnier than 8otC itself (funnier than Countdown too). (HT @Sandpit)
    I’ll check some out today
  • All of the ex-servicemen who spoke gave similar testimonies, as for a split second did Ben Wallace on LBC with his "cos I'm a sold..." snapped response as to why he is taking this all so personally.

    I note the dismissal of Tugendhat's "performance" from several posters above and have to ask - have you served? Unless you have seen what these men have seen who are you to call them fakes?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,862
    edited August 2021

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Of course the papers are bad news for the Govt. Its a mess but its not Boris's mess... but will be portrayed as such.

    It really is though...

    Boris Johnson so far on Afghanistan:

    -We were fully prepared
    -We didn't foresee it happening
    -We are doing everything we can
    -We can't do much without US
    -We were on holiday
    -We are working around the clock

    #Afghanistan

    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1427918836947374081
    The first two were also what our armed forces chief of staff said.
    (I think there has been an element of denial in the armed forces leadership about the Afghan situation for a while.)
    Armed Forces senior leadership has spectacularly failed - Chief of Defence (Gen Carter) actually commanded about 15000 UK/US/Afghan troops in 2011 (and really bigged up its success for many years) - he has driven a massive push towards dependence on the US (stripping out UK logistics, remodelling Brigades along US lines, reducing infantry and armour manpower) thats really looking like a big fat cock up..... he needs to seriously consider his position
    The system contains significant inbuilt incentives for the armed services to big up both the potential impact they can make and how things are actually going. This is most obvious in the US where they have almost captured the political system, but apparent also in the Uk. So you need to look elsewhere - the security services, journalism, NGOs - to get a balanced assessment of how things are on the ground. We seem to have been poor at doing this for some time; I am old enough to remember when PB was full of commentary on how the Brits in Helmand were succeeding, with our supposedly more intelligent approach to ‘nation building’, where the heavy-footed Americans were not.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Headline: London lost millionaire bankers to Continent ahead of Brexit
    The UK lost 95 banking millionaires in 2019.


    Detail: 71 percent of the near 5,000 highest-paid European bankers remained in the U.K.

    So that's about 3,500 remained in the UK and under 3% moved.....

    https://www.politico.eu/article/london-lost-millionaire-bankers-to-continent-ahead-of-brexit/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
    It looks like the vaccines are more effective against symptoms, than infection or transmissibility. Looks like we are all going to get this at some point.

    I’ve just been told well be getting boosters out here, six months after the second dose, which was three weeks after the first dose - Pfizer vaccine. It appears, with the benefit of hindsight, that the three-week gap was too short, but that’s what was trialled. Good (and brave, at the time) call by the UK to go with the longer dose interval.
    It possibly didn’t make any difference with the Pfizer vaccine (though very probably did with AZN).
    1 more point, since the UK gave @Pfizer at 3-4 wks and 8-12 wks dosing schedules:
    "The study also suggested that the time between doses did not affect effectiveness in preventing new infections" but unclear if this pertains to Delta infections or overall..

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1428216300036190210
    The reporting is poor all round I'm afraid - as for herd immunity the UK is not going to particularly try for this.
    The entire 12+ population twice jabbed followed by a booster 6 months later might do it...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958

    All of the ex-servicemen who spoke gave similar testimonies, as for a split second did Ben Wallace on LBC with his "cos I'm a sold..." snapped response as to why he is taking this all so personally.

    I note the dismissal of Tugendhat's "performance" from several posters above and have to ask - have you served? Unless you have seen what these men have seen who are you to call them fakes?

    Who called him a fake? My point is that he wasn’t imo very good at presenting his authentic experience as a professional soldier.
  • Headline: London lost millionaire bankers to Continent ahead of Brexit
    The UK lost 95 banking millionaires in 2019.


    Detail: 71 percent of the near 5,000 highest-paid European bankers remained in the U.K.

    So that's about 3,500 remained in the UK and under 3% moved.....

    https://www.politico.eu/article/london-lost-millionaire-bankers-to-continent-ahead-of-brexit/

    If 71 per cent remained and 3 per cent moved, how did the other 26 per cent lose all their money?
  • Headline: London lost millionaire bankers to Continent ahead of Brexit
    The UK lost 95 banking millionaires in 2019.


    Detail: 71 percent of the near 5,000 highest-paid European bankers remained in the U.K.

    So that's about 3,500 remained in the UK and under 3% moved.....

    https://www.politico.eu/article/london-lost-millionaire-bankers-to-continent-ahead-of-brexit/

    If 71 per cent remained and 3 per cent moved, how did the other 26 per cent lose all their money?
    Not all of the 5000 were in the UK?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Headline: London lost millionaire bankers to Continent ahead of Brexit
    The UK lost 95 banking millionaires in 2019.


    Detail: 71 percent of the near 5,000 highest-paid European bankers remained in the U.K.

    So that's about 3,500 remained in the UK and under 3% moved.....

    https://www.politico.eu/article/london-lost-millionaire-bankers-to-continent-ahead-of-brexit/

    If 71 per cent remained and 3 per cent moved, how did the other 26 per cent lose all their money?
    The 26% were already in Europe, and remained there.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited August 2021

    Headline: London lost millionaire bankers to Continent ahead of Brexit
    The UK lost 95 banking millionaires in 2019.


    Detail: 71 percent of the near 5,000 highest-paid European bankers remained in the U.K.

    So that's about 3,500 remained in the UK and under 3% moved.....

    https://www.politico.eu/article/london-lost-millionaire-bankers-to-continent-ahead-of-brexit/

    If 71 per cent remained and 3 per cent moved, how did the other 26 per cent lose all their money?
    I guess some dipped under 1,000000 when the market dropped the poor souls....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    RAAB-ID FIRE: Dominic Raab’s position as foreign secretary is under pressure this morning as he faces calls to resign over his decision to delegate his responsibilities while he was on holiday as Kabul fell to the Taliban. Raab had already come under heavy criticism for failing to return from a luxury break in Crete until the early hours of Monday morning, after the Afghan capital had fallen, and for spending part of Sunday on the beach as the crisis unfolded. The foreign secretary is also embroiled in a major internal row with the ministry of defense and the Home Office over the Foreign Office’s failure to help Afghan interpreters and students, and for relying on MoD officials to undertake visa processing work in Kabul. That was before today’s remarkable Mail splash revealing Raab ignored official advice to call his Afghan counterpart and seek help airlifting translators out of the country, apparently because he was “too busy” on holiday.

    https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/politico-london-playbook-raab-id-fire-digital-detox-gone-wrong-britains-biden-fury/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    One of the watches set to BJ time presumably.

    https://twitter.com/wimdows/status/1428060147365122054?s=21
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Jesus. This is the worst one. He’s a confused and tearful old man, way way out of his depth. This is desperate


    https://twitter.com/townhallcom/status/1428100689692090371?s=21

    I am surprised he can remember as far back as 4 or 5 days.

    One thing that is noticeable, the Vice President is nowhere to be seen.
    I do believe this is the single most important observation of the day.

    Where is Kamala?

    Now, she may be wooden. And she may be a dreadful politician. But she's not a complete idiot. She could no doubt answer questions, and merely come over as dull and functional. But she isn't obviously suffering from dementia.

    My guess (and it's only a guess) is that she's getting her revenge. Biden* handed her a bunch of impossible problems that will generate only negative press for the VP.

    And now Biden needs her. And she doesn't want to be anywhere near the shit show.

    Could she actually plunge the knife into Biden early in his term? If so, would it be enough to force Biden from office?

    I don't know the answer. But it's far from impossible. Could Afghanistan be America's Suez? With Biden playing the Eden role?

    And perhaps Suez is the better analogy than Tehran or Saigon.

    * Well, really Biden's team.
    ** Eden, too long in the shadows... I like it.
    Yes, this starts to feel more like an American Suez. Total national humiliation. An entire political generation disgraced.
    I don't think like Suez.

    In the Suez Crisis, Britain tried to act as if in the pre-war era of Empire, and fell flat when America wouldn't back us up. It was a humiliation to learn that while still extensive, the British Empire was over.

    This really is more like the fall of Vietnam, no matter how clichéd that is.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    All of the ex-servicemen who spoke gave similar testimonies, as for a split second did Ben Wallace on LBC with his "cos I'm a sold..." snapped response as to why he is taking this all so personally.

    I note the dismissal of Tugendhat's "performance" from several posters above and have to ask - have you served? Unless you have seen what these men have seen who are you to call them fakes?

    Who called him a fake? My point is that he wasn’t imo very good at presenting his authentic experience as a professional soldier.

    Which was a perfectly fair comment to make.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Mercer:

    So...the problem with Boris’s administration is that the PM listens to what he wants to hear? “Absolutely”.

    If he sounds bitter, he is bitter. He was minister for veterans and service personnel but Boris sacked him for disagreeing with the Government’s policy on pursuing British soldiers for alleged historic offences in Northern Ireland without new evidence of wrongdoing. After that, he says, colleagues ostracised him.

    “I have no friends in politics”, he says. “It’s a deeply lonely place...I’m sick of doing all this [working for veterans and soldiers] for a Conservative Party and a government that treats me with contempt.” After the shootings not a single member of the Conservative Party phoned me up*

    Given all this, does he still want to continue as a Tory MP? “I’m not going to lie to you; it’s something I think about every day”, he says. “Being in a Tory Party at the moment is like working for a really shit company where everyone takes the piss out of you and everyone running it hasn’t got a clue.”


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/johnny-mercer-mp-afghanistan-betrayal-boris-johnson-tory-b951174.html

    * The only MP who phoned him was Ian Blackford.....
  • DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    Yes. You criticise the "hostile environment" of a few vans with "if you aren't here legally we'll get you" posters. Yet you wholeheartedly support the current actual hostile environment where that smirking monster panders to the "sink the migrants" Farragists and is planning to deport them all to somewhere abroad.

    Are there any mirrors in your house?
  • All of the ex-servicemen who spoke gave similar testimonies, as for a split second did Ben Wallace on LBC with his "cos I'm a sold..." snapped response as to why he is taking this all so personally.

    I note the dismissal of Tugendhat's "performance" from several posters above and have to ask - have you served? Unless you have seen what these men have seen who are you to call them fakes?

    Who called him a fake? My point is that he wasn’t imo very good at presenting his authentic experience as a professional soldier.
    You did. His speech was a "performance" - an act, a fake.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:


    -We can't do much without US

    This one is actually quite truthful by Johnson's standards. The entire British presence in Helmand was just 'hoping and coping'; passing the time by shooting poppy farmers and dogs while the US tried to align the strategy in Kabul. The UK defence establishment could not bear even the suspicion that they weren't the Americans' closest ally so they would not and could not quit while the US persisted. There was zero UK owned strategy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
    It looks like the vaccines are more effective against symptoms, than infection or transmissibility. Looks like we are all going to get this at some point.

    I’ve just been told well be getting boosters out here, six months after the second dose, which was three weeks after the first dose - Pfizer vaccine. It appears, with the benefit of hindsight, that the three-week gap was too short, but that’s what was trialled. Good (and brave, at the time) call by the UK to go with the longer dose interval.
    It possibly didn’t make any difference with the Pfizer vaccine (though very probably did with AZN).
    1 more point, since the UK gave @Pfizer at 3-4 wks and 8-12 wks dosing schedules:
    "The study also suggested that the time between doses did not affect effectiveness in preventing new infections" but unclear if this pertains to Delta infections or overall..

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1428216300036190210
    The reporting is poor all round I'm afraid - as for herd immunity the UK is not going to particularly try for this.
    The entire 12+ population twice jabbed followed by a booster 6 months later might do it...
    Shouldn't we now be looking at a booster with a re-engineered vax that challenges Delta better rather than just a top up?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    Easily outclassed in that respect by her successor, which is saying something. The immediately pressing "hostile environment" against Afghan collaborators with UK forces falls squarely on the current lot.

    Beyond that there wasn't much a UK prime minister could do, given the US determination to get out as quickly as possible. I cut Johnson some slack on that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Daily Mail Deputy Political Editor:

    Raab wasn't asked to be the ambassador processing visas at Kabul airport

    Raab wasn't asked to be one of the 600 troops deployed to secure the airport

    He was asked to make *one phone call* from his sun lounger to help the translators who served our troops - and he refused


    https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1428245637783592962?s=20
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
    It looks like the vaccines are more effective against symptoms, than infection or transmissibility. Looks like we are all going to get this at some point.

    I’ve just been told well be getting boosters out here, six months after the second dose, which was three weeks after the first dose - Pfizer vaccine. It appears, with the benefit of hindsight, that the three-week gap was too short, but that’s what was trialled. Good (and brave, at the time) call by the UK to go with the longer dose interval.
    It possibly didn’t make any difference with the Pfizer vaccine (though very probably did with AZN).
    1 more point, since the UK gave @Pfizer at 3-4 wks and 8-12 wks dosing schedules:
    "The study also suggested that the time between doses did not affect effectiveness in preventing new infections" but unclear if this pertains to Delta infections or overall..

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1428216300036190210
    We are not seeing a problem with those over Eighties injected with the original Pfizer schedule in Dec 2020, at least not noticeably. Obviously we do not have as long of follow up on those with the extended interval.

    The pressure on my Trust is increasing. We now have 120+ covid inpatients and 20+ on ICU. Medical outliers on Surgical wards as no Medical beds and cancelled operating lists, with the theatre staff back in ICU.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958

    All of the ex-servicemen who spoke gave similar testimonies, as for a split second did Ben Wallace on LBC with his "cos I'm a sold..." snapped response as to why he is taking this all so personally.

    I note the dismissal of Tugendhat's "performance" from several posters above and have to ask - have you served? Unless you have seen what these men have seen who are you to call them fakes?

    Who called him a fake? My point is that he wasn’t imo very good at presenting his authentic experience as a professional soldier.
    You did. His speech was a "performance" - an act, a fake.
    Every single mp who stands up to speak in the HoC gives a performance. How connected those performances are to sincere beliefs and whether they’re good or crap performances are different questions.
  • Mercer:

    So...the problem with Boris’s administration is that the PM listens to what he wants to hear? “Absolutely”.

    If he sounds bitter, he is bitter. He was minister for veterans and service personnel but Boris sacked him for disagreeing with the Government’s policy on pursuing British soldiers for alleged historic offences in Northern Ireland without new evidence of wrongdoing. After that, he says, colleagues ostracised him.

    “I have no friends in politics”, he says. “It’s a deeply lonely place...I’m sick of doing all this [working for veterans and soldiers] for a Conservative Party and a government that treats me with contempt.” After the shootings not a single member of the Conservative Party phoned me up*

    Given all this, does he still want to continue as a Tory MP? “I’m not going to lie to you; it’s something I think about every day”, he says. “Being in a Tory Party at the moment is like working for a really shit company where everyone takes the piss out of you and everyone running it hasn’t got a clue.”


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/johnny-mercer-mp-afghanistan-betrayal-boris-johnson-tory-b951174.html

    * The only MP who phoned him was Ian Blackford.....

    Remember that the policy he was sacked (by text!!!) for wanting the PM to uphold was a manifesto pledge.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    NEW: Labour are calling for Dominic Raab to go

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1428249126509195264?s=20

    So that's Labour and The Daily Mail.....
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Everyone's favourite drug pushers are at it again

    https://twitter.com/statnews/status/1428144684640129028?s=19
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,716
    Heath in particularly bleak mood in Telegraph:

    "Racked with self-doubt, its [USA] elites in the grip of a bizarre “awakening” centred around a nihilistic, ungrateful self-loathing, it no longer has values to sell, neither capitalism nor democracy nor the American dream. How can people who live in terror of “micro-aggressions” find it in themselves to defeat real evils?"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/18/witnessing-collapse-american-empire/
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    edited August 2021

    Mercer:

    So...the problem with Boris’s administration is that the PM listens to what he wants to hear? “Absolutely”.

    If he sounds bitter, he is bitter. He was minister for veterans and service personnel but Boris sacked him for disagreeing with the Government’s policy on pursuing British soldiers for alleged historic offences in Northern Ireland without new evidence of wrongdoing. After that, he says, colleagues ostracised him.

    “I have no friends in politics”, he says. “It’s a deeply lonely place...I’m sick of doing all this [working for veterans and soldiers] for a Conservative Party and a government that treats me with contempt.” After the shootings not a single member of the Conservative Party phoned me up*

    Given all this, does he still want to continue as a Tory MP? “I’m not going to lie to you; it’s something I think about every day”, he says. “Being in a Tory Party at the moment is like working for a really shit company where everyone takes the piss out of you and everyone running it hasn’t got a clue.”


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/johnny-mercer-mp-afghanistan-betrayal-boris-johnson-tory-b951174.html

    * The only MP who phoned him was Ian Blackford.....

    Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Not a good morning on many fronts, is it?

    On Mercer, his comments suggest that the current 'Conservative' parliamentary party are largely totally subservient to the PM, rather than, as once would have been the case, 'only' being prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.
    Which is the sort of behaviour we used to see from members of the 'parliament' of the Soviet Union.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited August 2021
    Unlike some others on here I am much more exercised by Prince Andrew than Prince Harry. But mileages - like recollections - vary, I guess.

    Harry's greatest weakness is his sense of entitlement, but he is hardly alone amongst that crowd. At least he wants to do some public service, but is prevented from doing so.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,647
    edited August 2021

    Mercer:

    So...the problem with Boris’s administration is that the PM listens to what he wants to hear? “Absolutely”.

    If he sounds bitter, he is bitter. He was minister for veterans and service personnel but Boris sacked him for disagreeing with the Government’s policy on pursuing British soldiers for alleged historic offences in Northern Ireland without new evidence of wrongdoing. After that, he says, colleagues ostracised him.

    “I have no friends in politics”, he says. “It’s a deeply lonely place...I’m sick of doing all this [working for veterans and soldiers] for a Conservative Party and a government that treats me with contempt.” After the shootings not a single member of the Conservative Party phoned me up*

    Given all this, does he still want to continue as a Tory MP? “I’m not going to lie to you; it’s something I think about every day”, he says. “Being in a Tory Party at the moment is like working for a really shit company where everyone takes the piss out of you and everyone running it hasn’t got a clue.”


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/johnny-mercer-mp-afghanistan-betrayal-boris-johnson-tory-b951174.html

    * The only MP who phoned him was Ian Blackford.....

    I think ex service personnel, at least in the era of a professional army, don't make particularly good politicians. They are too shaped by their military days, and have distorted perspectives. The military should keep out of politics.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    edited August 2021

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    The moral giant that is “a hostile environment” May. Probably the most incompetent and useless PM since the war.

    Give me a break.
    Yes. You criticise the "hostile environment" of a few vans with "if you aren't here legally we'll get you" posters. Yet you wholeheartedly support the current actual hostile environment where that smirking monster panders to the "sink the migrants" Farragists and is planning to deport them all to somewhere abroad.

    Are there any mirrors in your house?
    Jesus, he’s off on one again. Comparing something that happened to something that is only happening in his crazed imaginings. Priti Patel seems to invoke a disproportionate amount of bile from new labour types. Wonder why.
  • Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scientists at the University of Oxford found levels of the virus could be just as high in people who get COVID despite having both jabs as in those who haven't been vaccinated https://trib.al/JdZ6g79

    That’s disappointing. For a long time we hoped that the vaccinated would be a basis of herd immunity. It’s very bad news for those who have chosen not to be vaxed.
    It looks like the vaccines are more effective against symptoms, than infection or transmissibility. Looks like we are all going to get this at some point.

    I’ve just been told well be getting boosters out here, six months after the second dose, which was three weeks after the first dose - Pfizer vaccine. It appears, with the benefit of hindsight, that the three-week gap was too short, but that’s what was trialled. Good (and brave, at the time) call by the UK to go with the longer dose interval.
    It possibly didn’t make any difference with the Pfizer vaccine (though very probably did with AZN).
    1 more point, since the UK gave @Pfizer at 3-4 wks and 8-12 wks dosing schedules:
    "The study also suggested that the time between doses did not affect effectiveness in preventing new infections" but unclear if this pertains to Delta infections or overall..

    https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1428216300036190210
    We are not seeing a problem with those over Eighties injected with the original Pfizer schedule in Dec 2020, at least not noticeably. Obviously we do not have as long of follow up on those with the extended interval.

    The pressure on my Trust is increasing. We now have 120+ covid inpatients and 20+ on ICU. Medical outliers on Surgical wards as no Medical beds and cancelled operating lists, with the theatre staff back in ICU.
    Do you know how many of the 120+ and 20+ are vaccinated?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,788
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Borough, well, quite.

    When Hannibal had just won Cannae, the Romans sold the field his camp was on for the full market value.

    The West generally is not exactly showing the same resolve today. Just see how Je Suis Charlie became a Batley Grammar School fearing for his life while a mob of thugs assembled to intimidate him over a cartoon.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    New estimates: In 2018, close to 40% of multinational profits were shifted to tax havens.

    In 2018, Italy lost €6.6 billion of its corporate tax revenue due to EU tax havens such as Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands. Unacceptable!

    High time for a change in EU corporate taxation.


    https://twitter.com/heimbergecon/status/1428217674828500994

    87% of EU tax revenue lost to "tax havens" went to EU Tax Havens....
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    FF43 said:

    Unlike some others on here I am much more exercised by Prince Andrew than Prince Harry. But mileages - like recollections - vary, I guess.

    Harry's greatest weakness is his sense of entitlement, but he is hardly alone amongst that crowd. At least he wants to do some public service, but is prevented from doing so.

    Not a binary choice mate, can be appalled by both for different reasons. Harry’s constant sniping via close contacts is become tiresome. Just say something yourself. Of course his current disdain for the monarch will be forgotten when he visits her with Netflix cameras in tow.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,958
    Alistair said:

    Everyone's favourite drug pushers are at it again

    https://twitter.com/statnews/status/1428144684640129028?s=19

    Careful, you’ll be getting pushback from the ‘but they’ve done so much selfless good work for the arts’ lads.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    Daily Mail Deputy Political Editor:

    Raab wasn't asked to be the ambassador processing visas at Kabul airport

    Raab wasn't asked to be one of the 600 troops deployed to secure the airport

    He was asked to make *one phone call* from his sun lounger to help the translators who served our troops - and he refused


    https://twitter.com/johnestevens/status/1428245637783592962?s=20

    Just because thats from the Daily Mail one wouldn't automatically think that its true..if it is however, its awful.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    Heath in particularly bleak mood in Telegraph:

    "Racked with self-doubt, its [USA] elites in the grip of a bizarre “awakening” centred around a nihilistic, ungrateful self-loathing, it no longer has values to sell, neither capitalism nor democracy nor the American dream. How can people who live in terror of “micro-aggressions” find it in themselves to defeat real evils?"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/18/witnessing-collapse-american-empire/

    There's lots of hyperventilating going on about the decline of American power but invading middle-eastern countries and trying to govern them is only really a Bush-Cheney thing, and it was obviously doomed only a few years after they tried it. What would really doom the US to decline would be if it couldn't course-correct.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited August 2021

    New estimates: In 2018, close to 40% of multinational profits were shifted to tax havens.

    In 2018, Italy lost €6.6 billion of its corporate tax revenue due to EU tax havens such as Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands. Unacceptable!

    High time for a change in EU corporate taxation.


    https://twitter.com/heimbergecon/status/1428217674828500994

    87% of EU tax revenue lost to "tax havens" went to EU Tax Havens....

    Most of which went to Ireland, which is hardly a tax haven, merely a low-tax economy.

    If it were in the BVI, Seychelles, or Delaware, then maybe that term could be appropriate.

    Setting up pan-EU companies is by design, it’s the Single Market in full effect.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    - “Researchers concluded two doses reduce the chance of getting the Covid-19 by about 82 per cent for Pfizer and 67 per cent for AstraZeneca.”

    Countries that uses principally Pfizer are going to have a better autumn and winter.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    In regard to booster shots the latest communications that Surgeries have received in Hampshire is that those who have had Pfifzer will require a half dose as a booster and these will start in about 3 weeks.

    Those who have had AZN are unlikely to require a booster as its effectiveness keeps building.
This discussion has been closed.