"The PM has repeatedly and consistently failed to honour what he said to become Prime Minister to Veterans in this country. I have told him this to his face repeatedly - it had no effect, and so I will now do it in public"
"Donald Trump’s Former Defence Secretary Mark Esper has accused Trump of having "undermined" America’s 2020 deal with the Taliban by pushing for US troops to exit Afghanistan without the Taliban meeting the conditions of the deal, setting President Biden up for failure from the start."
Shades of Nixon shagging Vietnam peace talks - an American classic!
Fucking up his opponents is the one area where I have no problem envisaging Donald Trump mustering the full potential of his little grey cells and directing it with laser like focus at the objective.
I don't think this is quite accurate: Reaching ignition means getting a fusion yield that's greater than the 1.9 MJ put in by the laser... While there was no net energy gain, nuclear 'ignition' was actually achieved. That is a very significant step.
Laser / ICF fusion is great for research (especially into nuclear weapons), but I don't think it's the way forward for power from nuclear fusion.
Interesting 50% of British voters think the US was wrong to withdraw troops. They are also correct to blame Biden and Trump for handing the country back to the Taliban.
They are right too to fear it has increased the risk of a terror attack on the UK again.
Also interesting that 53% think UK troops will have to eventually go back, that is directly linked to any future terror attack here planned in Afghanistan of course.
It is good voters are willing to help Afghan refugees but we must take care to ensure we screen out any militants
On arrival Afghan refugees will be escorted to Stansted and then flown to our new offshore processing centre at Bagram AFB. Their new Taliban camp hosts will keep them safe from the evil Taliban. "It's been a big success" said a smirking Priti Patel yesterday, "the camp has more capacity so big hearted Britain is prepared to take another 50,000 refugees."
Why bother doing that when you've told us that Scotland will take them all.
When do we get Nicola's announcement confirming that ?
On the broader picture, Johnson will struggle to paint a picture which refutes the sense of acute British and Western decline.
Biden is clearly pursuing America First. Our chief ally has basically said it's not interested. But there is no European alliance to fall back on, because we have spent the last five years destroying that relationship.
That is a very profound moment and one which the prime minister will struggle to conceal.
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
On arrival Afghan refugees will be escorted to Stansted and then flown to our new offshore processing centre at Bagram AFB. Their new Taliban camp hosts will keep them safe from the evil Taliban. "It's been a big success" said a smirking Priti Patel yesterday, "the camp has more capacity so big hearted Britain is prepared to take another 50,000 refugees."
Why bother doing that when you've told us that Scotland will take them all.
When do we get Nicola's announcement confirming that ?
end up dumping them & their problems on Stoke on Trent etc?
There's a very funny article about the 50 worst places to live in England as voted for by denizens. Scroll down to the top 10 worst places and enjoy the comments.
Despite being in the north nowhere in Cumbria even makes the top 50. A shameful lack of effort on the part of Maryport, Workington, Barrow, Carlisle, Millom, Whitehaven, Dalton etc.
Very poor effort from Lancashire as well.
And how Rotherham is as high as 34 (with ten other Yorkshire towns below it) is a mystery.
Interesting 50% of British voters think the US was wrong to withdraw troops. They are also correct to blame Biden and Trump for handing the country back to the Taliban.
They are right too to fear it has increased the risk of a terror attack on the UK again.
Also interesting that 53% think UK troops will have to eventually go back, that is directly linked to any future terror attack here planned in Afghanistan of course.
It is good voters are willing to help Afghan refugees but we must take care to ensure we screen out any militants
You are just playing at gutter politics here, Sir Keir!
Key table from Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland report shows the notional deficit for Scotland of 22.4% of GDP - up 13.6pts in a year. UK deficit up 11.6pts to 14.2% of GDP.
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
Did you read the link? I'd suggest to you that Simpson's paradox is a real thing, and this also fits the explanation from out of Israel a few weeks ago about assumptions made in the study. If you read @Foxy's posts you will see he reports that ALL in his ICU/on ventilation are UNVACCINATED (he implies some have good reasons, by which I assume medical reasons, not anti-vax). Certainly Delta has made the situation with cases worse. It looked like the vaccines would suppress the spread of covid pretty well before delta arrived. But the consequences for vaccinated people are for the most part not severe. We will not be able to get zero covid, so must do all we can to live with the virus. A suite of vaccines that reduce its severity to a bad cold (or indeed pretty much anything below hospital admission for most) is enough. The trick now (if trick is the word) is to now NOT count cases. The link of cases to hospital and death is vastly reduced, especially for vaccinated people.
And don't forget that there are some confounding factors in the Israeli data. Those vaccinated earliest will have been the elderly and most vulnerable, so if it is the case that immunity fades over time, that is especially true for that group (immune persistence is much less in the elderly), and they are the most likely to experience serious Covid. All of which might tend to reinforce your point.
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
On the current numbers, it looks entirely possible that Linke does not make it into parliament, and that SPD + Green is tantalisingly close to a majority.
Union, FDP and AfD on 45% combined, SPD and Greens on 40% combined. That is not 'tantalisingly close to a majority.'
Most likely it will be a Union, SPD and FDP government which on 56% combined actually would have a comfortable majority
end up dumping them & their problems on Stoke on Trent etc?
There's a very funny article about the 50 worst places to live in England as voted for by denizens. Scroll down to the top 10 worst places and enjoy the comments.
Despite being in the north nowhere in Cumbria even makes the top 50. A shameful lack of effort on the part of Maryport, Workington, Barrow, Carlisle, Millom, Whitehaven, Dalton etc.
Very poor effort from Lancashire as well.
And how Rotherham is as high as 34 (with ten other Yorkshire towns below it) is a mystery.
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
As someone who’s double-Pfizered, may I just say thank you for ruining my day Heathener.
I wouldn't worry - chances are even if you contract covid now, you will have a bad few days at most, and almost certainly won'y need hospital care. @Heathener has a rather doom filled outlook. If he/she was commenting at this time last year, they would have been proven absolutely correct. Now over 90% of adults have some immunity. Well in the UK at least, not sure where you are...
Glorious west highlands. Cannae beat it. The vie is absolutely stunning, everything is clean and fresh, I can see the clear night sky, and lovely walks to my heart’s content. Even the midges seem to be on holiday and leaving me in peace. Haven’t seen a single cleg.
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
You left England for Aberdeenshire to get away from the crowds, I believe?
On arrival Afghan refugees will be escorted to Stansted and then flown to our new offshore processing centre at Bagram AFB. Their new Taliban camp hosts will keep them safe from the evil Taliban. "It's been a big success" said a smirking Priti Patel yesterday, "the camp has more capacity so big hearted Britain is prepared to take another 50,000 refugees."
Why bother doing that when you've told us that Scotland will take them all.
When do we get Nicola's announcement confirming that ?
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
So, from your link, we have admitted 33,000 Afghan asylum seekers in the past 20 years, plus an unstated number who won their appeal. Good to see.
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
You expecting a contribution from Corbyn then?
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
In view of Macron's further right attitude to this issue than Patel, and the silence from pro EU posters on this forum can you comment on the shocking attitude of the EU to date
"The PM has repeatedly and consistently failed to honour what he said to become Prime Minister to Veterans in this country. I have told him this to his face repeatedly - it had no effect, and so I will now do it in public"
Why should veterans get any different from everyone else?
There is one good reason for them to get different treatment, and that is the distinctive nature of military wounds, both physical and mental, and the wider issues such as a distinctive understanding of the situation of a serving soldier, sailor or RAF person.
Yet MoD would seem not to agree, at least insofar as the specialist hospitals such as Haslar were closed down by MoD. AIUI the best one can hope for is a MoD specialist unit in a NHS hospital. No idea if this is considered appropriate by the medical profession or not.
On the broader picture, Johnson will struggle to paint a picture which refutes the sense of acute British and Western decline.
Biden is clearly pursuing America First. Our chief ally has basically said it's not interested. But there is no European alliance to fall back on, because we have spent the last five years destroying that relationship.
That is a very profound moment and one which the prime minister will struggle to conceal.
Biden and Trump are the most isolationist US Presidents for 100 years, not much we can do about that.
However do not forget Brexit was in some respects a vote for isolation not Global Britain
That's the dilemma that still has to be fully resolved, isn't it? The intellectual (one might almost say metropolitan elite) vision of New Britain is global, letting anyone in if their money and brains are good enough. The bulk of the votes for Brexit came from the more isolationist "spend it on our NHS" strand.
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
You left England for Aberdeenshire to get away from the crowds, I believe?
No. I could have moved to many other parts of England for that.
Japanese GP in October cancelled due to increasing Covid cases.
That’s no surprise. Probably replaced by a second race in the USA, either another at COTA, or perhaps Indianapolis.
The USA might be in a very bad covid situation in October.
That’s unlikely to bother Texas much, nor Indiana. They’ll tell the crowd not to come if they feel sick.
Contrast with New York, who have just started demanding vaccination certificates from anyone entering any indoor public space.
New York and New Jersey currently have the highest Covid fatality rates, but Florida and Texas have bigger outbreaks ongoing now.
This idea that seems to have taken hold that 'vaccines don't stop transmission' is one of the worst half truths of the entire pandemic. Vaccine passports do two things.
i) They drive up vaccine uptake, the couple of people I know not bothering soon would if they needed it to live a normal life ii) They ensure any venue that requires them has the highest possible immunity level within that venue. And these tend to be the places transmission is highest.
As an added bonus it sends the antivaxxers even more foaming at the mouth than they already are, and decrease costs for your health system.
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
As someone who’s double-Pfizered, may I just say thank you for ruining my day Heathener.
I wouldn't worry - chances are even if you contract covid now, you will have a bad few days at most, and almost certainly won'y need hospital care. @Heathener has a rather doom filled outlook. If he/she was commenting at this time last year, they would have been proven absolutely correct. Now over 90% of adults have some immunity. Well in the UK at least, not sure where you are...
Glorious west highlands. Cannae beat it. The vie is absolutely stunning, everything is clean and fresh, I can see the clear night sky, and lovely walks to my heart’s content. Even the midges seem to be on holiday and leaving me in peace. Haven’t seen a single cleg.
Which part? Just been chatting to a coastal walker who had a nasty fall near Ardintoul (just west of Eilean Donan castle). If it hadn't been for some passing kayakers it might have been much worse. Thanks to them, the RNLI and a coastguard helicopter, he's safe and well.
There can be some nasty walks on the west coast. But the scenery. Oh, the scenery ...
Mr. B, in the Middle Ages, and ancient world, a general approach taken was that surrendering was best done immediately, or not at all.
General such as the Black Prince or Alexander the Great tended to be lenient to those who gave up, but if surrender was offered later then harsh terms at best were imposed (if not slaughter).
That being so, why would the Afghan army, apparently unable to operate its fancy US gear due to lack of support, fight an unwinnable war for the sake of the people who had just abandoned them, in exchange for certain death rather than potentially being able to keep on living?
And why didn't the US consider this?
The idea that one can surrender well after a fight has begun, and expect to have that surrender accepted is (a) very recent and (b) certainly not universally accepted.
As I understood it, until a practicable breach was made in your walls the besiegers would not expect a surrender. Once that was achieved if no surrender came and a costly storming was necessary then a massacre would ensue, and not just of the military.
I think was certainly the case during the napoleonic wars, eg in the peninsula.
That was the ethic, in the 18th and 19th centuries. It was accepted that, as a man of honour, a defending commander should attempt to stand a siege, up till the point that a practicable breach had been made. At that point, he ought to surrender, and his men could expect reasonable terms, so as to avoid the cost of stroming the town. But, if he refused to surrender, and the town was stormed, then the attackers were well within their rights to execute the defenders, and massacre the townsfolk, as at Badajoz and San Sebastian.
The laws of war were detailed. It was very bad conduct to accept a surrender upon terms, and then to breach those terms, as you were really putting everyone else in jeapordy by doing so. That is what made Nelson's conduct at Naples so egregious. The Republicans in Naples negotiated a surrender that would enable them to be transported by the Royal Navy to France. Nelson was not party to the negotiations, and repudiated the terms on arrival at the city. He was entitled to repudiate an agreement made by a deputy, but according to the rules, he ought to have restored them to the fortifications which they had been defending, with ammunition and food. Instead, he handed them over to Ferdinand and Maria Carolina for punishment.
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
You expecting a contribution from Corbyn then?
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
I was trying to think of who was in Parliament at the material time and wasn't, unlike IDS (among others) gung-ho for action. And of course, you're right!
And re Bin Laden, there's no 'of course' about it.
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
It looked like a waste of British lives and money over a decade ago.
But we kept being told by the 'experts' that things were improving and it needed only a little more time {insert photo of westernised Kabulis to 'prove it'}.
I see the the great Edinburgh Castle Rebellion is over - but Britain, England and Scotland, and all their frameworks of historic law, will be changed utterly - forever.
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
As someone who’s double-Pfizered, may I just say thank you for ruining my day Heathener.
I wouldn't worry - chances are even if you contract covid now, you will have a bad few days at most, and almost certainly won'y need hospital care. @Heathener has a rather doom filled outlook. If he/she was commenting at this time last year, they would have been proven absolutely correct. Now over 90% of adults have some immunity. Well in the UK at least, not sure where you are...
I’m doubled jabbed with AZ and have got Covid. Diagnosed yesterday. Caught it from the wife. Feel fine now. I’m not too fussed. The jabs work.
I don't think this is quite accurate: Reaching ignition means getting a fusion yield that's greater than the 1.9 MJ put in by the laser... While there was no net energy gain, nuclear 'ignition' was actually achieved. That is a very significant step.
Laser / ICF fusion is great for research (especially into nuclear weapons), but I don't think it's the way forward for power from nuclear fusion.
I'm not so sure. First Light Fusion, which uses a different method for inertial confinement, looks quite promising, too. There are of course serious engineering problems, but the big advantage is avoiding the need for sophisticated systems for confining and keeping stable a high energy plasma. Inertial confinement might get to market quicker.
"The PM has repeatedly and consistently failed to honour what he said to become Prime Minister to Veterans in this country. I have told him this to his face repeatedly - it had no effect, and so I will now do it in public"
Why should veterans get any different from everyone else?
There is one good reason for them to get different treatment, and that is the distinctive nature of military wounds, both physical and mental, and the wider issues such as a distinctive understanding of the situation of a serving soldier, sailor or RAF person.
Yet MoD would seem not to agree, at least insofar as the specialist hospitals such as Haslar were closed down by MoD. AIUI the best one can hope for is a MoD specialist unit in a NHS hospital. No idea if this is considered appropriate by the medical profession or not.
You misunderstand; I meant, not that, but the even more outlandish expectation that the PM's promises to anyone ever have any meaning.
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
You expecting a contribution from Corbyn then?
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
I was trying to think of who was in Parliament at the material time was, unlike IDS (among others) gung-ho for action. And of course, you're right!
And re Bin Laden, there's no 'of course' about it.
It was only the invasion which forced Bin Laden to flee Afghanistan to Pakistan where US special forces eventually found and killed him.
No invasion., Bin Laden would still be alive in the Afghan mountains plotting more 9/11s
Quite an appalling, halting, meandering, unconvincing, staccato performance by PM Johnson opening Commons debate. Nobody could accuse him of rising to the occasion.
Maybe it’s the shock of so many MPs in back in the chamber, but the Commons is particularly febrile. Tory benches in particular are giving Boris Johnson a very hard time, PM struggling to keep his head above water. https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1427918267243540482?s=20
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
In view of Macron's further right attitude to this issue than Patel, and the silence from pro EU posters on this forum can you comment on the shocking attitude of the EU to date
Not only Macron, other EU leaders too. There will be no condemnation from people here just abisive and sometimes misogynist comments about Patel.
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
You expecting a contribution from Corbyn then?
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
You really should go watch that film The Outpost. A pro-veteran film that nevertheless brings home the utter futility and stupidity of it all.
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
As someone who’s double-Pfizered, may I just say thank you for ruining my day Heathener.
I wouldn't worry - chances are even if you contract covid now, you will have a bad few days at most, and almost certainly won'y need hospital care. @Heathener has a rather doom filled outlook. If he/she was commenting at this time last year, they would have been proven absolutely correct. Now over 90% of adults have some immunity. Well in the UK at least, not sure where you are...
I’m doubled jabbed with AZ and have got Covid. Diagnosed yesterday. Caught it from the wife. Feel fine now. I’m not too fussed. The jabs work.
Sorry to hear & Good to hear Is it worse than a normal cold or flu (for you) ?
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
As someone who’s double-Pfizered, may I just say thank you for ruining my day Heathener.
I wouldn't worry - chances are even if you contract covid now, you will have a bad few days at most, and almost certainly won'y need hospital care. @Heathener has a rather doom filled outlook. If he/she was commenting at this time last year, they would have been proven absolutely correct. Now over 90% of adults have some immunity. Well in the UK at least, not sure where you are...
I’m doubled jabbed with AZ and have got Covid. Diagnosed yesterday. Caught it from the wife. Feel fine now. I’m not too fussed. The jabs work.
Hope it’s not too bad for you.
Yes, the jabs work. It’s very much a half-truth to say they don’t stop transmission, what they are unquestionably doing is keeping people out of hospitals.
On arrival Afghan refugees will be escorted to Stansted and then flown to our new offshore processing centre at Bagram AFB. Their new Taliban camp hosts will keep them safe from the evil Taliban. "It's been a big success" said a smirking Priti Patel yesterday, "the camp has more capacity so big hearted Britain is prepared to take another 50,000 refugees."
Why bother doing that when you've told us that Scotland will take them all.
When do we get Nicola's announcement confirming that ?
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
In view of Macron's further right attitude to this issue than Patel, and the silence from pro EU posters on this forum can you comment on the shocking attitude of the EU to date
One might not unreasonably argue that it's (mostly) the US and UK's mess....
On topic, I asume the blame question was choose one?
If not, I'd expect more even distibution of blame. In many ways, Bush should be top (going in without a clear plan for objectives and getting out). Obama deserves more than 2%, too - he inherited a mess, but was probably best-placed, after Bush, to have made something better of it, if that was possible. Trump is more to blame for the Taliban ending up victorious than Biden, as he set in place the policies that pretty much guaranteed it. Biden is more to blame, perhaps, for the nature/speed of the victory and the chaos (I say 'perhaps' as I'm not clear on whether Trump would have done anything different to make things less chaotic).
On the British side, Blair could perhaps have made Bush think a bit more before getting started (I'm not sure whether he really had the influence to do that). Not much Johnson could do once the US was committed to pulling out - I don't think Trump could have been persuaded to change course on that, nor Biden. The British PMs carry some blame - Blair obviously - for the British losses. But I don't think they were in much position to change the ultimate outcome.
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
In view of Macron's further right attitude to this issue than Patel, and the silence from pro EU posters on this forum can you comment on the shocking attitude of the EU to date
One might not unreasonably argue that it's (mostly) the US and UK's mess....
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
You expecting a contribution from Corbyn then?
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
You really should go watch that film The Outpost. A pro-veteran film that nevertheless brings home the utter futility and stupidity of it all.
I will do but only for the movie, does not change the fact we had to go to get Bin Laden
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
As someone who’s double-Pfizered, may I just say thank you for ruining my day Heathener.
I wouldn't worry - chances are even if you contract covid now, you will have a bad few days at most, and almost certainly won'y need hospital care. @Heathener has a rather doom filled outlook. If he/she was commenting at this time last year, they would have been proven absolutely correct. Now over 90% of adults have some immunity. Well in the UK at least, not sure where you are...
I’m doubled jabbed with AZ and have got Covid. Diagnosed yesterday. Caught it from the wife. Feel fine now. I’m not too fussed. The jabs work.
Hope it’s not too bad for you.
Yes, the jabs work. It’s very much a half-truth to say they don’t stop transmission, what they are unquestionably doing is keeping people out of hospitals.
Thank you, it isn’t for me but my wife is having a harder time of it. I just ache all over and have lost my sense of taste and smell. My wife has a running nose and chesty cough too.
We are both working from home but she will be having a lie down later.
Yes, what I should have said is vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisation and death.
Mrs May is regularly better at putting Johnson on the spot than any of the Opposition.
"When did you first speak to Nato Sec Gen about assembling a coalition of the willing?"
"I spoke to him just the other day..."
That is the problem with parliamentary debates; it is so easy to avoid the question (or be an idiot by not understanding it) and there is no opportunity to follow up. It is a shame that the speaker can not intervene and insist that the actual question is answered.
There is also the issue of often having to ask 20 questions in one ask for which there is no way a minister can answer properly. There should be the opportunity to ask individual or closely related questions and then ask the next after that answer.
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
As someone who’s double-Pfizered, may I just say thank you for ruining my day Heathener.
I wouldn't worry - chances are even if you contract covid now, you will have a bad few days at most, and almost certainly won'y need hospital care. @Heathener has a rather doom filled outlook. If he/she was commenting at this time last year, they would have been proven absolutely correct. Now over 90% of adults have some immunity. Well in the UK at least, not sure where you are...
I’m doubled jabbed with AZ and have got Covid. Diagnosed yesterday. Caught it from the wife. Feel fine now. I’m not too fussed. The jabs work.
Sorry to hear & Good to hear Is it worse than a normal cold or flu (for you) ?
Hope your wife is feeling OK !
Thank you.
My wife has a very chesty cough and a steaming nose and feels very tired and drained. It is like a bad cold for her.
For me I feel fine apart from a metallic taste in my mouth. The previius couple of days I felt like I’d been kicked black and blue. But today I don’t feel too bad.
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
You expecting a contribution from Corbyn then?
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
I was trying to think of who was in Parliament at the material time was, unlike IDS (among others) gung-ho for action. And of course, you're right!
And re Bin Laden, there's no 'of course' about it.
It was only the invasion which forced Bin Laden to flee Afghanistan to Pakistan where US special forces eventually found and killed him.
No invasion., Bin Laden would still be alive in the Afghan mountains plotting more 9/11s
Your hero just promised that we would stop Afghanistan becoming a breeding ground for terrorism. So it must clearly be possible without having to invade the place....
"The PM has repeatedly and consistently failed to honour what he said to become Prime Minister to Veterans in this country. I have told him this to his face repeatedly - it had no effect, and so I will now do it in public"
Why should veterans get any different from everyone else?
There is one good reason for them to get different treatment, and that is the distinctive nature of military wounds, both physical and mental, and the wider issues such as a distinctive understanding of the situation of a serving soldier, sailor or RAF person.
Yet MoD would seem not to agree, at least insofar as the specialist hospitals such as Haslar were closed down by MoD. AIUI the best one can hope for is a MoD specialist unit in a NHS hospital. No idea if this is considered appropriate by the medical profession or not.
You misunderstand; I meant, not that, but the even more outlandish expectation that the PM's promises had any meaning.
Fair enough! I did misunderstand. Quite so. But it is a good general question in a country where the American approach has not been adopted (arguably less necessary in general, because of the existence of rather better social support systems). I'm not sure what the answer is, but undoubtedly special medical treatment is a potential issue. I've read accounts of poor treatment partly because the civilians didn't understand the wider background.
Interestingly it strikes me from the responses to that tweet that the news of the fall of Kabul won't be good for the psychological health of the veterans, anyway, or indeed their families (some bereaved). Nor might the PM's actions (or lack of).
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
In view of Macron's further right attitude to this issue than Patel, and the silence from pro EU posters on this forum can you comment on the shocking attitude of the EU to date
One might not unreasonably argue that it's (mostly) the US and UK's mess....
On arrival Afghan refugees will be escorted to Stansted and then flown to our new offshore processing centre at Bagram AFB. Their new Taliban camp hosts will keep them safe from the evil Taliban. "It's been a big success" said a smirking Priti Patel yesterday, "the camp has more capacity so big hearted Britain is prepared to take another 50,000 refugees."
Why bother doing that when you've told us that Scotland will take them all.
When do we get Nicola's announcement confirming that ?
The basic fact is that Pfizer isn't stemming Delta as effectively on most pandemic measurements as it did with preceding variants. It is also the case that herd immunity is now very unlikely to be achieved.
The rest is a case of watching the data: growing case numbers, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths ... some of whom will have been double jabbed with Pfizer. In all of those instances more will be affected than would have been the case with preceding variants.
A much simpler way of putting this is that we're heading for trouble this autumn / winter. I wish it weren't so and I wish I could take the Peter Pan approach that some stridently desire. The evidence sadly makes that impossible.
As someone who’s double-Pfizered, may I just say thank you for ruining my day Heathener.
I wouldn't worry - chances are even if you contract covid now, you will have a bad few days at most, and almost certainly won'y need hospital care. @Heathener has a rather doom filled outlook. If he/she was commenting at this time last year, they would have been proven absolutely correct. Now over 90% of adults have some immunity. Well in the UK at least, not sure where you are...
I’m doubled jabbed with AZ and have got Covid. Diagnosed yesterday. Caught it from the wife. Feel fine now. I’m not too fussed. The jabs work.
Sorry to hear & Good to hear Is it worse than a normal cold or flu (for you) ?
Hope your wife is feeling OK !
Thank you.
My wife has a very chesty cough and a steaming nose and feels very tired and drained. It is like a bad cold for her.
For me I feel fine apart from a metallic taste in my mouth. The previius couple of days I felt like I’d been kicked black and blue. But today I don’t feel too bad.
Good to hear. An update - my mum spent about 5 days in hospital with a blood clot, she's out now and on thinners. It wasn't Covid, and the length of time from her jabs means I think it won't have been the vaccine either. It was (imo) likely the ciggies which she has now quit after 50 odd years, hopefully for good >< !
She has to maintain her "no refugees by boat" stance to keep the Faragists at bay, while simultaneously 'welcoming' thousands of Afghans.
Unless they arrive by boat...
Yes, because the boats are:
1. Killing people 2. Enabling people smugglers 3. Acting as a draw for people to make long journeys 4. Mostly arriving from a G7, Nato and EU country, which is perfectly safe. 5. Robbing the arrivals of their savings 6. Encouraging economic migration under the guise of asylum.
The UK is taking thousands of Afghan refugees, but will be bringing them into the country from Afghanistan and surrounding areas. Same policy as under Cameron and other governments.
We absolutely won't be. The right have weaponised human suffering. There are no refugees remember. They've been told that they have to claim asylum in the first safe country (they don't), that they're here to take all the jobs (when they can't work) and the benefits (which they can't claim) and now that man with beard will blow us up.
The good Brexit Tory voters in the red wall and eastern England are not going to open their communities to accept Afghan refugees. They voted Brexit and Tory to stop such things happening. Which is why that smirking monster Patel is so determined to stop future Patels coming there.
Sorry, but that’s total and utter bollocks.
The UK are and will be taking thousands of refugees from Afghanistan, which is the correct thing to do.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
In view of Macron's further right attitude to this issue than Patel, and the silence from pro EU posters on this forum can you comment on the shocking attitude of the EU to date
One might not unreasonably argue that it's (mostly) the US and UK's mess....
Outside of the Commons who I'd be particularly interested in hearing from about Afghanistan is Tony Blair.
"The kaleidoscope has been shaken. The pieces are in flux. Soon they will settle again. Before they do, let us spend twenty years thinking we can reorder this world."
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
You expecting a contribution from Corbyn then?
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
I was trying to think of who was in Parliament at the material time was, unlike IDS (among others) gung-ho for action. And of course, you're right!
And re Bin Laden, there's no 'of course' about it.
It was only the invasion which forced Bin Laden to flee Afghanistan to Pakistan where US special forces eventually found and killed him.
No invasion., Bin Laden would still be alive in the Afghan mountains plotting more 9/11s
Your hero just promised that we would stop Afghanistan becoming a breeding ground for terrorism. So it must clearly be possible without having to invade the place....
We could not have started without taking out Bin Laden
When MPs meet in special session of the Commons at 0930 this morning, motion before them is “That this House has considered the situation in Afghanistan.” Pretty much sums up Britain’s impotence in the current crisis. Maybe they should just leave it there and go back on holiday. https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427896249177493504
Will be a fest of hand-wringing and 'if only' and 'coulda shoulda woulda'. The only honest contribution will be any MP who admits we should never have gone there in the first place, preferably coming from someone who said as much at the time (although repentance is always better than HY-head-in-the-sandism).
You expecting a contribution from Corbyn then?
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
I was trying to think of who was in Parliament at the material time was, unlike IDS (among others) gung-ho for action. And of course, you're right!
And re Bin Laden, there's no 'of course' about it.
It was only the invasion which forced Bin Laden to flee Afghanistan to Pakistan where US special forces eventually found and killed him.
No invasion., Bin Laden would still be alive in the Afghan mountains plotting more 9/11s
Your hero just promised that we would stop Afghanistan becoming a breeding ground for terrorism. So it must clearly be possible without having to invade the place....
We could not have started without taking out Bin Laden
We did start without that. OBL was killed a decade later.
“It’s the sheer fucking flippancy of Johnson that really appals me,” a former minister of long experience and distinction told me. “He just seems incapable of taking anything seriously. And this is bloody serious.”
..there is the alarming sense of disengagement between the government and the catastrophe of Afghanistan – a catastrophe that the best part of 500 British soldiers gave their lives seeking to prevent. MPs are conscious that the public perceive that neither Johnson nor Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, appeared able to speak to the nation’s concerns about the fate of the people of Afghanistan, and particularly for that of its girls and women. As the wires reported girls as young as 12 being abducted and presented to Taliban fighters for their sexual gratification, Johnson was pictured cavorting with members of Britain’s successful Olympic team, and Raab was on holiday. MPs are beginning to note Johnson’s habit of going missing in action when a serious crisis occurs..
..there is bemusement that Johnson appears either to have condoned the chaotic and incompetent way in which America has overseen its own withdrawal from Afghanistan, or that he is of such low standing in the eyes of President Biden that he was never even consulted about it.
“Just as he is puffing his chest and blustering about British global reach,” says one ex-minister of Johnson, “our global reach is proven to be pitiful.” Years of pretence by Johnson and his predecessors that Britain could exert international diplomatic influence without the military power to back it up have been gravely exposed.
If anything good can come out of this horror for the Afghan people, it is that the Tories finally understand these hard truths about the “winner” they have as their leader, and realise there is more to running a country with credibility in the world than having as your front man a comedian who can pull in a few Red Wall seats.
That is well worth reading - not least because it draws upon the only constituency which Mr Johnson has to worry about: the MPs of the Tory Party. It's not a Leftie critique at all.
end up dumping them & their problems on Stoke on Trent etc?
There's a very funny article about the 50 worst places to live in England as voted for by denizens. Scroll down to the top 10 worst places and enjoy the comments.
Despite being in the north nowhere in Cumbria even makes the top 50. A shameful lack of effort on the part of Maryport, Workington, Barrow, Carlisle, Millom, Whitehaven, Dalton etc.
Very poor effort from Lancashire as well.
And how Rotherham is as high as 34 (with ten other Yorkshire towns below it) is a mystery.
Chichester is a surprise on the list?
No idea why. Its seems v pretty in the parts I visit and there is a beautiful cathedral and a superb theatre.
Starmer tells MPs the admission from the Defence Sec that not everyone will be able to get back is "unconscionable" and tells govt to "snap out of complacency". Labour leader being heard. His criticisms of the UK govt felt keenly on the govt benches as well as the opposition ones
Outside of the Commons who I'd be particularly interested in hearing from about Afghanistan is Tony Blair.
"The kaleidoscope has been shaken. The pieces are in flux. Soon they will settle again. Before they do, let us spend twenty years thinking we can reorder this world."
I vividly remember Blair theatrically rushing up the steps of Concorde around the time of this speech, on a whistle-stop global tour to drum up support for America's intervention, somewhere in or around October 2001. Britain's reward at the end of twenty years was to be completely ignored during the pullout ; which is also a vivid preview of how our future economic and military relationship with the US, deprived of a seat at the top european table, is likely to pan out.
On arrival Afghan refugees will be escorted to Stansted and then flown to our new offshore processing centre at Bagram AFB. Their new Taliban camp hosts will keep them safe from the evil Taliban. "It's been a big success" said a smirking Priti Patel yesterday, "the camp has more capacity so big hearted Britain is prepared to take another 50,000 refugees."
Why bother doing that when you've told us that Scotland will take them all.
When do we get Nicola's announcement confirming that ?
That's an admittance that Scotland has had sod all immigration:
Our experience of migration throughout much of the twentieth century is distinctly different to that of the rest of the UK. Scotland is one of only four European countries to have had a smaller population in 2001 than it had in 1971.
And a request that Scotland can pick and chose who it wants.
Starmer has the tone right here have to say, sombre and serious. The Commons was too jovial before.
Now he is reading the list of MPs who served in Afghanistan
Shades of the Norway debate, and others in both wars, when many MPs were serving.
The debate over the fall of Norway is absolutely the last historical analogy which Boris Johnson would want, given his utter eagerness to follow his hero Winston Churchill.
On arrival Afghan refugees will be escorted to Stansted and then flown to our new offshore processing centre at Bagram AFB. Their new Taliban camp hosts will keep them safe from the evil Taliban. "It's been a big success" said a smirking Priti Patel yesterday, "the camp has more capacity so big hearted Britain is prepared to take another 50,000 refugees."
Why bother doing that when you've told us that Scotland will take them all.
When do we get Nicola's announcement confirming that ?
That's an admittance that Scotland has had sod all immigration:
Our experience of migration throughout much of the twentieth century is distinctly different to that of the rest of the UK. Scotland is one of only four European countries to have had a smaller population in 2001 than it had in 1971.
And a request that Scotland can pick and chose who it wants.
Er, the population has been higher than 1971's for quite some time now. It is 2021 on the calendars now.
Outside of the Commons who I'd be particularly interested in hearing from about Afghanistan is Tony Blair.
"The kaleidoscope has been shaken. The pieces are in flux. Soon they will settle again. Before they do, let us spend twenty years thinking we can reorder this world."
I vividly remember Blair theatrically rushing up the steps of Concorde at the time of this speech, on a whistle-stop global tour to drum up support for the Americans intervening, around October 2001. Britain's reward at the end of twenty years was to be completely ignored during the pullout, which is a vivid preview for how our future economic and military relationship with the US, deprived of a seat at the european table, will pan out too.
What is the European table really worth in defence and foreign policy terms? In reality any European table that excludes the UK isn't a European table.
Starmer has the tone right here have to say, sombre and serious. The Commons was too jovial before.
Now he is reading the list of MPs who served in Afghanistan
Shades of the Norway debate, and others in both wars, when many MPs were serving.
The debate over the fall of Norway is absolutely the last historical analogy which Boris Johnson would want, given his utter eagerness to follow his hero Winston Churchill.
Perhaps Boris could follow Churchill's First World War example after the Gallipolli disaster – put on a uniform and go and fight in the trenches.
No invasion., Bin Laden would still be alive in the Afghan mountains plotting more 9/11s
You don't know that.
There were a range of options for dealing with OBL between doing nothing and occupying Afghanistan for 20 years.
True. And a range of ways to view 9/11 from a criminal mass murder to an act of war by the Islamic world on the West. It's not just the practicalities, how you fundamentally view what 9/11 was has an impact on what you think the response should have been.
I now think the decision to go into Afghanistan was a mistake. However, remembering back and being honest, I was actually relieved at the time that the US response was only this and I supported it. I thought there was a fair chance of them going totally OTT and triggering something cataclysmic.
Course, it then turned out that they - and we - didn't restrict ourselves to Afghanistan. The Iraq misadventure followed. I was always against that.
Starmer has the tone right here have to say, sombre and serious. The Commons was too jovial before.
Now he is reading the list of MPs who served in Afghanistan
Shades of the Norway debate, and others in both wars, when many MPs were serving.
The debate over the fall of Norway is absolutely the last historical analogy which Boris Johnson would want, given his utter eagerness to follow his hero Winston Churchill.
History did Johnson the favour of delivering him a global crisis such that he had opportunity to emulate his hero, with the catch that it didn't gift him any of the skills or character to be able to do so.
It's getting personal. Starmer: "He failed to visit Afghanistan as PM, which means his last trip to the country, as Foreign Sec, was not to learn or to push UK interests but to avoid a vote on Heathrow. 100,000s of Britons have flown to serve,the PM flew to avoid public service." https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1427926249742258176
Outside of the Commons who I'd be particularly interested in hearing from about Afghanistan is Tony Blair.
"The kaleidoscope has been shaken. The pieces are in flux. Soon they will settle again. Before they do, let us spend twenty years thinking we can reorder this world."
I vividly remember Blair theatrically rushing up the steps of Concorde at the time of this speech, on a whistle-stop global tour to drum up support for the Americans intervening, around October 2001. Britain's reward at the end of twenty years was to be completely ignored during the pullout, which is a vivid preview for how our future economic and military relationship with the US, deprived of a seat at the european table, will pan out too.
What is the European table really worth in defence and foreign policy terms? In reality any European table that excludes the UK isn't a European table.
The UK will only have any independent military weight as part of a European military structure, where it's strongly needed ; next to the US it's an irrelevance, as we can see. The current government has done nothing to build on that.
Outside of the Commons who I'd be particularly interested in hearing from about Afghanistan is Tony Blair.
"The kaleidoscope has been shaken. The pieces are in flux. Soon they will settle again. Before they do, let us spend twenty years thinking we can reorder this world."
I vividly remember Blair theatrically rushing up the steps of Concorde around the time of this speech, on a whistle-stop global tour to drum up support for America's intervention, somewhere in or around October 2001. Britain's reward at the end of twenty years was to be completely ignored during the pullout ; which is also a vivid preview of how our future economic and military relationship with the US, deprived of a seat at the top european table, is likely to pan out.
I'm unaccountably reminded of this Eye cover, from the pre-EEC days (as far as the UK was concerned), though in this case the UK didn't join in:
Comments
Contrast with New York, who have just started demanding vaccination certificates from anyone entering any indoor public space.
They are right too to fear it has increased the risk of a terror attack on the UK again.
Also interesting that 53% think UK troops will have to eventually go back, that is directly linked to any future terror attack here planned in Afghanistan of course.
It is good voters are willing to help Afghan refugees but we must take care to ensure we screen out any militants
However do not forget Brexit was in some respects a vote for isolation not Global Britain
And how Rotherham is as high as 34 (with ten other Yorkshire towns below it) is a mystery.
Although your last point is a valid one.
Key table from Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland report shows the notional deficit for Scotland of 22.4% of GDP - up 13.6pts in a year. UK deficit up 11.6pts to 14.2% of GDP.
https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1427914601514033152?s=20
is of interest in this debate.
32,000 over 20 years of occupation is a trickle, with half refused included women and children. We're bringing over people we employed and very little else. England doesn't want refugees - read the papers. See the votes.
Most likely it will be a Union, SPD and FDP government which on 56% combined actually would have a comfortable majority
"No. Oh look, you are doing nothing but virtue signal"
If it's replaced by an extra race at COTA, he'll be delighted.
Had we not gone in Bin Laden would of course still be alive, Al Qaeda still in Afghanistan with jihadi training camps and the Taliban would never have lost power in the first place
"When did you first speak to Nato Sec Gen about assembling a coalition of the willing?"
"I spoke to him just the other day..."
Yet MoD would seem not to agree, at least insofar as the specialist hospitals such as Haslar were closed down by MoD. AIUI the best one can hope for is a MoD specialist unit in a NHS hospital. No idea if this is considered appropriate by the medical profession or not.
Defence Secretary Ben Wallace looks furious and grim as PM Johnson waffles and obfuscates.
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427916253759479810?s=20
This idea that seems to have taken hold that 'vaccines don't stop transmission' is one of the worst half truths of the entire pandemic.
Vaccine passports do two things.
i) They drive up vaccine uptake, the couple of people I know not bothering soon would if they needed it to live a normal life
ii) They ensure any venue that requires them has the highest possible immunity level within that venue. And these tend to be the places transmission is highest.
As an added bonus it sends the antivaxxers even more foaming at the mouth than they already are, and decrease costs for your health system.
There can be some nasty walks on the west coast. But the scenery. Oh, the scenery ...
The laws of war were detailed. It was very bad conduct to accept a surrender upon terms, and then to breach those terms, as you were really putting everyone else in jeapordy by doing so. That is what made Nelson's conduct at Naples so egregious. The Republicans in Naples negotiated a surrender that would enable them to be transported by the Royal Navy to France. Nelson was not party to the negotiations, and repudiated the terms on arrival at the city. He was entitled to repudiate an agreement made by a deputy, but according to the rules, he ought to have restored them to the fortifications which they had been defending, with ammunition and food. Instead, he handed them over to Ferdinand and Maria Carolina for punishment.
And re Bin Laden, there's no 'of course' about it.
Edit; abysmal proof-reading!
But we kept being told by the 'experts' that things were improving and it needed only a little more time {insert photo of westernised Kabulis to 'prove it'}.
twitter.com/steviesouness/status/1427744024199
First Light Fusion, which uses a different method for inertial confinement, looks quite promising, too.
There are of course serious engineering problems, but the big advantage is avoiding the need for sophisticated systems for confining and keeping stable a high energy plasma. Inertial confinement might get to market quicker.
No invasion., Bin Laden would still be alive in the Afghan mountains plotting more 9/11s
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427917524402900995?s=20
Maybe it’s the shock of so many MPs in back in the chamber, but the Commons is particularly febrile. Tory benches in particular are giving Boris Johnson a very hard time, PM struggling to keep his head above water.
https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1427918267243540482?s=20
Not only Macron, other EU leaders too. There will be no condemnation from people here just abisive and sometimes misogynist comments about Patel.
Is it worse than a normal cold or flu (for you) ?
Hope your wife is feeling OK
Yes, the jabs work. It’s very much a half-truth to say they don’t stop transmission, what they are unquestionably doing is keeping people out of hospitals.
Only 44% think Biden has done a good job in Afghanistan, even below the 47% who thought Bush did a good job there and the 51% who think Obama and Trump did a good job in Afghanistan
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9903177/Bidens-approval-rating-plunges-seven-points-lowest-level-Kabul-falls-Taliban.html
https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wolverhampton/2021/08/17/shrugs-and-blank-looks-greet-sir-keirs-city-appearance/
If not, I'd expect more even distibution of blame. In many ways, Bush should be top (going in without a clear plan for objectives and getting out). Obama deserves more than 2%, too - he inherited a mess, but was probably best-placed, after Bush, to have made something better of it, if that was possible. Trump is more to blame for the Taliban ending up victorious than Biden, as he set in place the policies that pretty much guaranteed it. Biden is more to blame, perhaps, for the nature/speed of the victory and the chaos (I say 'perhaps' as I'm not clear on whether Trump would have done anything different to make things less chaotic).
On the British side, Blair could perhaps have made Bush think a bit more before getting started (I'm not sure whether he really had the influence to do that). Not much Johnson could do once the US was committed to pulling out - I don't think Trump could have been persuaded to change course on that, nor Biden. The British PMs carry some blame - Blair obviously - for the British losses. But I don't think they were in much position to change the ultimate outcome.
We are both working from home but she will be having a lie down later.
Yes, what I should have said is vaccines have broken the link between infection and hospitalisation and death.
https://twitter.com/steviesouness/status/1427744024199319553
There were a range of options for dealing with OBL between doing nothing and occupying Afghanistan for 20 years.
There is also the issue of often having to ask 20 questions in one ask for which there is no way a minister can answer properly. There should be the opportunity to ask individual or closely related questions and then ask the next after that answer.
The chamber is useless for debate.
My wife has a very chesty cough and a steaming nose and feels very tired and drained. It is like a bad cold for her.
For me I feel fine apart from a metallic taste in my mouth. The previius couple of days I felt like I’d been kicked black and blue. But today I don’t feel too bad.
Now he is reading the list of MPs who served in Afghanistan
Interestingly it strikes me from the responses to that tweet that the news of the fall of Kabul won't be good for the psychological health of the veterans, anyway, or indeed their families (some bereaved). Nor might the PM's actions (or lack of).
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1427920710182346754?s=20
Overseas Development ministers perhaps ?
It was (imo) likely the ciggies which she has now quit after 50 odd years, hopefully for good >< !
I am impressed and time for Boris to be removed by his party
And I am not going to listen much longer as I am going out
A serious politician.
..there is the alarming sense of disengagement between the government and the catastrophe of Afghanistan – a catastrophe that the best part of 500 British soldiers gave their lives seeking to prevent. MPs are conscious that the public perceive that neither Johnson nor Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, appeared able to speak to the nation’s concerns about the fate of the people of Afghanistan, and particularly for that of its girls and women. As the wires reported girls as young as 12 being abducted and presented to Taliban fighters for their sexual gratification, Johnson was pictured cavorting with members of Britain’s successful Olympic team, and Raab was on holiday. MPs are beginning to note Johnson’s habit of going missing in action when a serious crisis occurs..
..there is bemusement that Johnson appears either to have condoned the chaotic and incompetent way in which America has overseen its own withdrawal from Afghanistan, or that he is of such low standing in the eyes of President Biden that he was never even consulted about it.
“Just as he is puffing his chest and blustering about British global reach,” says one ex-minister of Johnson, “our global reach is proven to be pitiful.” Years of pretence by Johnson and his predecessors that Britain could exert international diplomatic influence without the military power to back it up have been gravely exposed.
If anything good can come out of this horror for the Afghan people, it is that the Tories finally understand these hard truths about the “winner” they have as their leader, and realise there is more to running a country with credibility in the world than having as your front man a comedian who can pull in a few Red Wall seats.
That is well worth reading - not least because it draws upon the only constituency which Mr Johnson has to worry about: the MPs of the Tory Party. It's not a Leftie critique at all.
[deleted - IanB2 has already dealt with that]
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1427923628545433605?s=20
That's an admittance that Scotland has had sod all immigration:
Our experience of migration throughout much of the twentieth century is distinctly different to that of the rest of the UK. Scotland is one of only four European countries to have had a smaller population in 2001 than it had in 1971.
And a request that Scotland can pick and chose who it wants.
I wonder how many will be prepared to take it.
I now think the decision to go into Afghanistan was a mistake. However, remembering back and being honest, I was actually relieved at the time that the US response was only this and I supported it. I thought there was a fair chance of them going totally OTT and triggering something cataclysmic.
Course, it then turned out that they - and we - didn't restrict ourselves to Afghanistan. The Iraq misadventure followed. I was always against that.
To hide from voters...
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1427926249742258176
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers/cover-88