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How Starmer could become PM – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    edited August 17
    kjh said:

    murali_s said:

    O/T Opinion polls mean nothing now. Corbyn nearly turned around a 25% deficit within 5 weeks of campaigning in 2017.

    Starmer has a good chance to be next PM just as Rishi has.

    I think the correct quote is 'May nearly turned around a 25% deficit' despite Corbyn.
    Quite possibly, though i think itd be ungracious not to give him some credit. Even if someone opens the door for you you still have to walk through. Same reason Boris still gets credit for winning big even though it was against Corbyn.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    edited August 17

    Cyclefree said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A country is only as strong as the willingness of the people of that country to fight for it. It seems like ordinary Afghans weren't interested in fighting for the country the Americans and other western nations had been attempting to set up for the last 20 years.

    I simply don't know enough about Afghanistan to know whether this is true or not or whether the withdrawal of essential US air cover made it impossible or very difficult for the Afghans to fight effectively. And, once the withdrawal was announced and the deal with the Taliban made the US effectively made itself a lame duck ally and signalled to Afghanis that it was content for the Taliban to be in power. So why would anyone fight then.

    But I find something frankly revolting in the way the US are justifying their actions which will have awful consequences for very many brave Afghanis by branding Afghanis cowards.

    There is plenty of cowardice on display and quite a lot if it is coming from the US. Yesterday 56 schoolgirls were slaughtered. A female Afghani MP, interviewed yesterday on the Today programme, is staying to protect her people even though she knows the risks she faces. A female mayor is waiting for the knock on the door and expects to be killed.

    How dare Biden call these people cowards.

    Maybe the US should never have been in Afghanistan. But there are honourable ways of departing and dishonourable ones. Biden's apologia sought to justify the latter. Yuck.
    Not just that.

    Very very few of us alive in Western Europe today have been put in the sort of situation where our courage has been tested like that. That's a blessing we should all be thankful for. But given a choice between resisting ruthless killers and keeping my head down, I don't know what I would do- even thinking about my tweenage daughters watching Frozen in the next room. I might hope, but I can't know. And two things follow from that;

    The first is to be grateful that I live here and now.

    The second is to never condemn those who have been tested and found wanting.
    The reason the Nazis were defeated in 1945 is because people were prepared to risk their lives to make it happen. And millions did die doing so. That was only a couple of generations ago.

    Wrt Afghanistan, the Taliban must have a lot of support among the population for them to be able to take over the country so quickly.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,318
    Nigelb said:

    theakes said:

    When the election is held the deciding factor will be the 10-154 year itch, the desire for a change and lets face it after this lot in government that desire will be considerable.

    Please let it not be 154 years....
    No, I wouldn't be bothering with ointment for that one.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A country is only as strong as the willingness of the people of that country to fight for it. It seems like ordinary Afghans weren't interested in fighting for the country the Americans and other western nations had been attempting to set up for the last 20 years.

    I simply don't know enough about Afghanistan to know whether this is true or not or whether the withdrawal of essential US air cover made it impossible or very difficult for the Afghans to fight effectively. And, once the withdrawal was announced and the deal with the Taliban made the US effectively made itself a lame duck ally and signalled to Afghanis that it was content for the Taliban to be in power. So why would anyone fight then.

    But I find something frankly revolting in the way the US are justifying their actions which will have awful consequences for very many brave Afghanis by branding Afghanis cowards.

    There is plenty of cowardice on display and quite a lot if it is coming from the US. Yesterday 56 schoolgirls were slaughtered. A female Afghani MP, interviewed yesterday on the Today programme, is staying to protect her people even though she knows the risks she faces. A female mayor is waiting for the knock on the door and expects to be killed.

    How dare Biden call these people cowards.

    Maybe the US should never have been in Afghanistan. But there are honourable ways of departing and dishonourable ones. Biden's apologia sought to justify the latter. Yuck.
    Not just that.

    Very very few of us alive in Western Europe today have been put in the sort of situation where our courage has been tested like that. That's a blessing we should all be thankful for. But given a choice between resisting ruthless killers and keeping my head down, I don't know what I would do- even thinking about my tweenage daughters watching Frozen in the next room. I might hope, but I can't know. And two things follow from that;

    The first is to be grateful that I live here and now.

    The second is to never condemn those who have been tested and found wanting.
    Absolutely. A thinking person's hindsight always hovers between how you hope you would have behaved in a particular situation and how you suspect you might have behaved.
    I am quite sure I would not have been a hero in such a situation. I'd keep my head down and hope for the best.
    I think we're all capable of surprising ourselves, on the good and bad side of the ledger of course.
    It's one of the things that separates the British Isles from continental Europe. We don't have the memory, even at a generation or two's remove, of facing the hideous choice of resist, collaborate or just keep your head down.

    But you're absolutely right; people surprise themselves and each other in both directions. The most diffident can think themselves into acts of incredible courage once they conclude they're the only right thing to do.
    Channel Islands?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,144
    HYUFD said:

    'A councillor has quit the SNP after claiming Nicola Sturgeon is the party’s worst leader in over 30 years.

    David Baird blasted the SNP’s “lack of direction” on independence and hit out at parts of the Government’s “domestic agenda”, such as reforms making it easier to change gender.

    He also said he had joined Alex Salmond ’s rival pro-independence Alba party.'
    'https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-snp-alex-salmond-24778411

    There are some odd Councillors about in some corners of the forests.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    At the same stage of their spell as LotO

    Mar 82 Michael Foot's Labour was leading Maggie's Tories by 1.5%, (GE Result 14.2% Tories)
    Feb 85 Neil Kinnock's Labour was level pegging with Maggie (GE 11.4% Tories)
    Nov 93 John Smith's Labour led John Major's Tories by 22%, (GE 12.5% Labour)
    Nov 95 Tony Blair's Labour led Major by 30% (GE 12.5% Labour)
    Oct 98 Hague's Tories trailed Blair's Labour by 27% (GE 9% Lab)
    Jan 03 IDS's Tories trailed Blair's Labour by 3% (GE 3%)
    Apr 08 Cameron's Tories led Brown's Labour by 8% (GE 7.2% Tories)
    Jan 12 EdM's Labour led Cameron's Tories by 2% (GE 6.6% Tories)
    Jan 17 Jezza's Labour trailed TM's Tories by 9% (GE 2.5% Tories)

    Hague and Jezza the only two to make ground. IDS had gone before the 05 Election


  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,438
    I don't think Starmer will ever be PM.

    (Only in part in jest: I'm mainly influenced by his awful shirt collar in the header above.)
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 1,003
    Emmanuel Macron has been accused of pandering to the far right after he said France should have a robust plan to “anticipate and protect itself from a wave of migrants” from Afghanistan.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/macron-accused-of-pandering-to-far-right-over-afghan-crisis

    Makes you wonder what the reaction would be if Boris said something along those lines...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402
    How is the tqliban presser going
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,042

    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A country is only as strong as the willingness of the people of that country to fight for it. It seems like ordinary Afghans weren't interested in fighting for the country the Americans and other western nations had been attempting to set up for the last 20 years.

    I simply don't know enough about Afghanistan to know whether this is true or not or whether the withdrawal of essential US air cover made it impossible or very difficult for the Afghans to fight effectively. And, once the withdrawal was announced and the deal with the Taliban made the US effectively made itself a lame duck ally and signalled to Afghanis that it was content for the Taliban to be in power. So why would anyone fight then.

    But I find something frankly revolting in the way the US are justifying their actions which will have awful consequences for very many brave Afghanis by branding Afghanis cowards.

    There is plenty of cowardice on display and quite a lot if it is coming from the US. Yesterday 56 schoolgirls were slaughtered. A female Afghani MP, interviewed yesterday on the Today programme, is staying to protect her people even though she knows the risks she faces. A female mayor is waiting for the knock on the door and expects to be killed.

    How dare Biden call these people cowards.

    Maybe the US should never have been in Afghanistan. But there are honourable ways of departing and dishonourable ones. Biden's apologia sought to justify the latter. Yuck.
    Not just that.

    Very very few of us alive in Western Europe today have been put in the sort of situation where our courage has been tested like that. That's a blessing we should all be thankful for. But given a choice between resisting ruthless killers and keeping my head down, I don't know what I would do- even thinking about my tweenage daughters watching Frozen in the next room. I might hope, but I can't know. And two things follow from that;

    The first is to be grateful that I live here and now.

    The second is to never condemn those who have been tested and found wanting.
    Absolutely. A thinking person's hindsight always hovers between how you hope you would have behaved in a particular situation and how you suspect you might have behaved.
    I am quite sure I would not have been a hero in such a situation. I'd keep my head down and hope for the best.
    I think we're all capable of surprising ourselves, on the good and bad side of the ledger of course.
    It's one of the things that separates the British Isles from continental Europe. We don't have the memory, even at a generation or two's remove, of facing the hideous choice of resist, collaborate or just keep your head down.

    But you're absolutely right; people surprise themselves and each other in both directions. The most diffident can think themselves into acts of incredible courage once they conclude they're the only right thing to do.
    PB pedantry: Channel Islands. But yes, with that exception.
    Further PB pedant. CI occupation was huge ratio of troops to islanders compared to say France. Much harder for effective resistance, plus most of the chaps had gone to mainland. Madeleine Bunting made much of the islanders behaving about the same as the French just over the way, and she is probably right, although I would argue that resistance was harder in the CI, than say in the remote moutainous regions of France.
    France also had organisations prepared to resist with Cadres and cells in place. I suspect that the Communist Party of Guernsey and Jersey (Marxist -Leninist) was neither a large nor effective organisation.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,957

    Emmanuel Macron has been accused of pandering to the far right after he said France should have a robust plan to “anticipate and protect itself from a wave of migrants” from Afghanistan.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/macron-accused-of-pandering-to-far-right-over-afghan-crisis

    Makes you wonder what the reaction would be if Boris said something along those lines...

    He would be accused of pandering to the far right. I.e. the same as the reaction to Macron.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,468
    maaarsh said:

    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    Agree, I thought he came across very well last night and if still a basket case after 20 years and trillions spent , it was a total waste spending any more time on it for sure. Neither US or UK should be in countries with armies trying to prop up puppet governments.
    I can think of one government I wish the UK would stop propping up with subsidy funding levels.
    Come on then , is this another jingo bells fantasy, who is it. They are always on the take so would find it hard to believe unless I fell and bumped my head very hard.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,189
    HYUFD said:

    'A councillor has quit the SNP after claiming Nicola Sturgeon is the party’s worst leader in over 30 years.

    David Baird blasted the SNP’s “lack of direction” on independence and hit out at parts of the Government’s “domestic agenda”, such as reforms making it easier to change gender.

    He also said he had joined Alex Salmond ’s rival pro-independence Alba party.'
    'https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-snp-alex-salmond-24778411

    @malcolmg is that you?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    edited August 17
    Pulpstar said:

    How is the tqliban presser going

    Telling the world they wont bother anyone else - so translation dont worry about terrorism. And they have nothing against women...if they live according to sharia. In return they want dialogue, recognition and freedom to do what they want in the country.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,224
    Taliban press conference making claims nobody will be harmed and all embassies and aid agencies will be protected

    They are coming over as reasonable peacemakers but just who will trust and believe them
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,923

    Emmanuel Macron has been accused of pandering to the far right after he said France should have a robust plan to “anticipate and protect itself from a wave of migrants” from Afghanistan.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/macron-accused-of-pandering-to-far-right-over-afghan-crisis

    Makes you wonder what the reaction would be if Boris said something along those lines...

    He’s making the assumption that it will be himself vs Le Pen, fighting again for the next election.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,468

    HYUFD said:

    'A councillor has quit the SNP after claiming Nicola Sturgeon is the party’s worst leader in over 30 years.

    David Baird blasted the SNP’s “lack of direction” on independence and hit out at parts of the Government’s “domestic agenda”, such as reforms making it easier to change gender.

    He also said he had joined Alex Salmond ’s rival pro-independence Alba party.'
    'https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-snp-alex-salmond-24778411

    There are some odd Councillors about in some corners of the forests.
    The man is correct, only surprise is more are not defecting yet. Lot of fat and happy SNP MP's & SMP's on the gravy train. Happy to bluster but no intention of doing anything. Not one person in the SNP is planning anything re independence.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,468
    edited August 17

    Emmanuel Macron has been accused of pandering to the far right after he said France should have a robust plan to “anticipate and protect itself from a wave of migrants” from Afghanistan.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/macron-accused-of-pandering-to-far-right-over-afghan-crisis

    Makes you wonder what the reaction would be if Boris said something along those lines...

    He will just do it till caught out and then blame someone else.
    PS: very badly and they will be flocking in due to incompetence
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,162
    Nigelb said:

    MaxPB said:

    BritishVolt which looked very much like an investor scamming exercise has taken another step towards legitimacy by taking a large investment from Glencore in return for supply guarantees. I know there's a lot of scepticism over whether they will actually ever deliver a product but I am definitely becoming more convinced that they will.

    What do you make of the government looking to push hydrogen?

    I don't know a massive amount of this, but my understanding is the tech to efficiently produce hydrogen doesn't exist and a lot of this will come from either processing natural gas and / or requires incredible amounts of energy.
    Hydrogen - essentially, yes. The Hydrogen Economy thing just punts the "where to we get hydrogen from bit?" way down the road...

    There is a faction in the civil service that has been pushing hydrogen for years - because of concerns about vehicle taxation and (the related) control of road usage.

    Hydrogen would be much easier to tax..... At the moment, the polling show that road pricing is electorally incredibly toxic.
    And the oil companies like it.
    Other than that, it's a niche product until/unless we come up with vastly improved catalysts for electrolytic production.
    And in any event, it will quite likely be more economical to produce methane etc from water & CO2 as a means of storing renewable energy than it will hydrogen.

    Taxing hydrogen is an utter non starter given how expensive it's likely to be in the first place.
    I thought the way to make methane from water and carbon dioxide was via a two-stage process, starting with electrolysis of water to produce hydrogen and then the Sabatier process to create the methane. Is there another way?

    I think methane is easier to store than hydrogen, so if electrolysis is improved in the future, or we have a huge excess of energy, then I'd have thought converting hydrogen to methane would make sense.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,707
    isam said:

    At the same stage of their spell as LotO

    Mar 82 Michael Foot's Labour was leading Maggie's Tories by 1.5%, (GE Result 14.2% Tories)
    Feb 85 Neil Kinnock's Labour was level pegging with Maggie (GE 11.4% Tories)
    Nov 93 John Smith's Labour led John Major's Tories by 22%, (GE 12.5% Labour)
    Nov 95 Tony Blair's Labour led Major by 30% (GE 12.5% Labour)
    Oct 98 Hague's Tories trailed Blair's Labour by 27% (GE 9% Lab)
    Jan 03 IDS's Tories trailed Blair's Labour by 3% (GE 3%)
    Apr 08 Cameron's Tories led Brown's Labour by 8% (GE 7.2% Tories)
    Jan 12 EdM's Labour led Cameron's Tories by 2% (GE 6.6% Tories)
    Jan 17 Jezza's Labour trailed TM's Tories by 9% (GE 2.5% Tories)

    Hague and Jezza the only two to make ground. IDS had gone before the 05 Election


    Where is Mr Swingback these days?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    edited August 17

    Taliban press conference making claims nobody will be harmed and all embassies and aid agencies will be protected

    They are coming over as reasonable peacemakers but just who will trust and believe them

    If they keep a lid on violence and egregious oppression in the short term it will be enough for nations to say give them a chance.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    'A councillor has quit the SNP after claiming Nicola Sturgeon is the party’s worst leader in over 30 years.

    David Baird blasted the SNP’s “lack of direction” on independence and hit out at parts of the Government’s “domestic agenda”, such as reforms making it easier to change gender.

    He also said he had joined Alex Salmond ’s rival pro-independence Alba party.'
    'https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-snp-alex-salmond-24778411

    There are some odd Councillors about in some corners of the forests.
    The man is correct, only surprise is more are not defecting yet. Lot of fat and happy SNP MP's & SMP's on the gravy train. Happy to bluster but no intention of doing anything. Not one person in the SNP is planning anything re independence.
    The poor showing in May presumably forestalled some defections. Do Albs have a second wind?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,523
    Omnium said:

    I don't think Starmer will ever be PM.

    (Only in part in jest: I'm mainly influenced by his awful shirt collar in the header above.)

    I don't trust his hair. It is way, way too ambitious.....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,224
    kle4 said:

    Taliban press conference making claims nobody will be harmed and all embassies and aid agencies will be protected

    They are coming over as reasonable peacemakers but just who will trust and believe them

    If they keep a lid on violence and egregious oppression in the short term it will be enough for nations to say give them a chance.
    I agree and maybe this is their tactic in the short term

    However, I am concerned that everything said so far will be OK if it complies with Sharia law whatever that means

    And I just do not trust them
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    It is smart international PR to let themselves be asked hostile questions.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,438

    Omnium said:

    I don't think Starmer will ever be PM.

    (Only in part in jest: I'm mainly influenced by his awful shirt collar in the header above.)

    I don't trust his hair. It is way, way too ambitious.....
    He is a bit odd. I do think he's generally ok. Now I'm very much hoping he never becomes PM, but if he does then he has to get back to being his own man. Since he's been leader he's been a stunt-puppet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,457
    "Was the U.S. mission there a total failure? Here I’d invoke one of my ironclad rules about covering the Middle East: When big events happen, always distinguish between the morning after and the morning after the morning after. Everything really important happens the morning after the morning after — when the full weight of history and the merciless balances of power assert themselves.

    And so it will be in Afghanistan — for both the Taliban and President Biden."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/opinion/afghanistan-biden-taliban.html

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    As someone who has been a low level worker, these events just make me wonder who organised the av set up, sorted chairs and laid out water bottles. Regular workers coming in to the media room or the Taliban brought their support staff?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 2,594
    On topic, not a fully impartial author but I did enjoy and learn something from this -

    https://thecritic.co.uk/a-tale-of-two-keirs/

    Can't imagine anyone is shocked he was a back room plodder in his previous life.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,318
    Lozza's take on things is admirably clear -

    Bad Times make hard men. Hard men make good times. Good times make soft men. Soft men make bad times.

    We are in bad times. We need MEN.

    — Laurence Fox ✌🏼🇬🇧✌🏼 (@LozzaFox) August 17, 2021
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,632
    kle4 said:

    As someone who has been a low level worker, these events just make me wonder who organised the av set up, sorted chairs and laid out water bottles. Regular workers coming in to the media room or the Taliban brought their support staff?

    Maybe our one legacy is a totally impartial civil service.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    Letting a bit more of the steel show regarding those who fought in the Afghan army.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,707

    "Was the U.S. mission there a total failure? Here I’d invoke one of my ironclad rules about covering the Middle East: When big events happen, always distinguish between the morning after and the morning after the morning after. Everything really important happens the morning after the morning after — when the full weight of history and the merciless balances of power assert themselves.

    And so it will be in Afghanistan — for both the Taliban and President Biden."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/16/opinion/afghanistan-biden-taliban.html

    I think Tom is channeling his inner Gust Avrakotos ... "we'll see"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLVFpSKVTew
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,158
    kle4 said:

    Taliban press conference making claims nobody will be harmed and all embassies and aid agencies will be protected

    They are coming over as reasonable peacemakers but just who will trust and believe them

    If they keep a lid on violence and egregious oppression in the short term it will be enough for nations to say give them a chance.
    Before the USS Cole bombing in 2000, the west would look at the Taliban in Afghanistan at tut. Even the blowing up of the Buddhas of Bamiyan elicited just tuts. Yes, they were a repressive regime, with terrible attitudes to life, religious tolerance and women. But so were a dozen other regimes around the world.

    Then bin Laden and Al Qaeda accelerated their missions from Afghan territory, and the Taliban regime started attracting international attention as, if not sponsors of terrorism, supporters and harbourers of terrorists.

    The question is whether they'll do the same thing again. Do the Taliban just want to maintain their evil regime within Afghanistan's borders, or do they want to foment trouble outside? If they're sensible, they'll concentrate on shoring up their own regime and not harbour any international terrorists - even if they're their friends.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,438
    kle4 said:

    Letting a bit more of the steel show regarding those who fought in the Afghan army.

    Let's hope all those in peril can run away.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,739
    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    Themselves - in their eyes sharia discrimination is not discrimination I'd assume.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,158

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A country is only as strong as the willingness of the people of that country to fight for it. It seems like ordinary Afghans weren't interested in fighting for the country the Americans and other western nations had been attempting to set up for the last 20 years.

    I simply don't know enough about Afghanistan to know whether this is true or not or whether the withdrawal of essential US air cover made it impossible or very difficult for the Afghans to fight effectively. And, once the withdrawal was announced and the deal with the Taliban made the US effectively made itself a lame duck ally and signalled to Afghanis that it was content for the Taliban to be in power. So why would anyone fight then.

    But I find something frankly revolting in the way the US are justifying their actions which will have awful consequences for very many brave Afghanis by branding Afghanis cowards.

    There is plenty of cowardice on display and quite a lot if it is coming from the US. Yesterday 56 schoolgirls were slaughtered. A female Afghani MP, interviewed yesterday on the Today programme, is staying to protect her people even though she knows the risks she faces. A female mayor is waiting for the knock on the door and expects to be killed.

    How dare Biden call these people cowards.

    Maybe the US should never have been in Afghanistan. But there are honourable ways of departing and dishonourable ones. Biden's apologia sought to justify the latter. Yuck.
    Not just that.

    Very very few of us alive in Western Europe today have been put in the sort of situation where our courage has been tested like that. That's a blessing we should all be thankful for. But given a choice between resisting ruthless killers and keeping my head down, I don't know what I would do- even thinking about my tweenage daughters watching Frozen in the next room. I might hope, but I can't know. And two things follow from that;

    The first is to be grateful that I live here and now.

    The second is to never condemn those who have been tested and found wanting.
    Absolutely. A thinking person's hindsight always hovers between how you hope you would have behaved in a particular situation and how you suspect you might have behaved.
    I am quite sure I would not have been a hero in such a situation. I'd keep my head down and hope for the best.
    I think we're all capable of surprising ourselves, on the good and bad side of the ledger of course.
    In my life, I have done both. And both were a surprise to me.
    I think most of us have it in us to be brave if other people are people are being brave. Conversely, if those around us are running away, we'll likely do so as well.
    The value of strong leaders right there.
    One of the reasons I was briefly excited by Rory Stewart's short-lived independent political career is that he struck me as the sort of leader I would be willing to be inspired by (despite him being a Tory).

    I can't think of any other British politician in recent decades who has approached that, but evidently very few other people agreed with me.

    We need better leadership if we are to get through the century in decent shape.
    I've been impressed by Stewart for years, and whilst I cut the government a certain amount of slack over the pandemic reaction, I do feel either him or Hunt would probably have done a better job (some of the comments on here from last March when Stewart tweeted about the seriousness of the pandemic are, with hindsight, tragicomic).

    If the Conservative Party are sensible, they'd try to bring him back into the fold. If they'd had him as London mayoral candidate this year they might just have won. But I do wonder if he'd want the gig now, or to be associated with Johnson's party at all.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    Classic stuff - inviting people to compare now with previous weeks and how now no one is dying...left unsaid, because they've stopped killing people.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    edited August 17
    Saying there was no opium cultivation under the Taliban and there wont now. Not sure that would go down well, or square with actions to date. But they say they need help for that- translation give us money or the drugs still flow.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402
    Bad day for opium producers sounds like
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,465
    Paging SeanT...

    Sea Knight 154038 has been disabled and left at Kabul International according to the son of the pilot. She has been serving since 1967 to include the evacuation of Saigon. The only CH-46 to fly non stop during the Kabul evacuation. https://twitter.com/The_Sourkraut/status/1427400331206463497/photo/1
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    BBC says the Taliban leaders 'land' in Afghanistan - wonder who chartered the flight.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    kle4 said:

    BBC says the Taliban leaders 'land' in Afghanistan - wonder who chartered the flight.

    And from where they were flying...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,176
    edited August 17
    Loth as I am to reignite the great helicopter debate of the Fall of Kabul..

    https://twitter.com/the_sourkraut/status/1427400331206463497?s=21
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,162
    edited August 17
    kle4 said:

    Saying there was no opium cultivation under the Taliban and there wont now. Not sure that would go down well, or square with actions to date. But they say they need help for that- give us money or the drugs still flow.

    If we'd legalised/decriminalized heroin and bought the Helmand opium crop from the beginning, providing the government with a legitimate tax base, possible that things may have developed differently.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,176
    Scott_xP said:

    Paging SeanT...

    Sea Knight 154038 has been disabled and left at Kabul International according to the son of the pilot. She has been serving since 1967 to include the evacuation of Saigon. The only CH-46 to fly non stop during the Kabul evacuation. https://twitter.com/The_Sourkraut/status/1427400331206463497/photo/1

    Ha, snap
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,042
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    BBC says the Taliban leaders 'land' in Afghanistan - wonder who chartered the flight.

    And from where they were flying...
    Surely airplanes are a heathen device and unislamic?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,402
    edited August 17
    Sounds like non Taliban will have a role in the new Afghan Gov't as influential as the Lib Dems in the 2010-2015 Gov't.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like non Taliban will have a role in the new Afghan Gov't as influential as the Lib Dems in the 2010-2015 Gov't.

    People still flit about between that being zero or responsible for all the good stuff.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,707
    kinabalu said:

    Lozza's take on things is admirably clear -

    Bad Times make hard men. Hard men make good times. Good times make soft men. Soft men make bad times.

    We are in bad times. We need MEN.

    — Laurence Fox ✌🏼🇬🇧✌🏼 (@LozzaFox) August 17, 2021
    Reminds me of 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'. Which I had thought to be a literary or biblical quote, but apparently is a cricketer from 1948.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    kle4 said:

    Saying there was no opium cultivation under the Taliban and there wont now. Not sure that would go down well, or square with actions to date. But they say they need help for that- give us money or the drugs still flow.

    It's not been enough remarked upon, but part of the problems Afghanistan has had is that traditional opium is being outcompeted by synthetic opiates from China.

    Afghanistan has very few other export industries. It has a $6bn import bill (for electricity, oil and food). Legal exports are just $675m/year. Without massive subsidies, they will find life very tough indeed.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,015

    Omnium said:

    I don't think Starmer will ever be PM.

    (Only in part in jest: I'm mainly influenced by his awful shirt collar in the header above.)

    I don't trust his hair. It is way, way too ambitious.....
    Now, normally I would not comment on a politician's personal appearance on the grounds of general decorum & good taste -- but then, this is pb.com and decorum & good taste have never stopped anyone else before ....

    So, should SKS's skin be looking so ... well, errr... gammony in colour?

    What is happening to Keir's face? There have been a number of recent photos when he has looked extremely red indeed. E.g.,

    https://tinyurl.com/z87knaxv

    I would hesitate to undertake serious diagnosis on the basis of a few random photographs without any medical training -- but then this is pb.com, and complete lack of expertise has never stopped anyone else before.

    So, I'd say that skin colouring is pretty damn unhealthy .

    If it was me that colour, I'd be looking to move into the slow lane.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,376
    edited August 17
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like non Taliban will have a role in the new Afghan Gov't as influential as the Lib Dems in the 2010-2015 Gov't.

    Though at least Clegg, Davey, Huhne and Cable knew Cameron and Osborne would not behead them if they mucked things up
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,457
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Saying there was no opium cultivation under the Taliban and there wont now. Not sure that would go down well, or square with actions to date. But they say they need help for that- give us money or the drugs still flow.

    It's not been enough remarked upon, but part of the problems Afghanistan has had is that traditional opium is being outcompeted by synthetic opiates from China.

    Afghanistan has very few other export industries. It has a $6bn import bill (for electricity, oil and food). Legal exports are just $675m/year. Without massive subsidies, they will find life very tough indeed.
    Friedman makes a similar point. Taliban will need a lot of outside aid to keep the show on the road. America has a lot of influence over the likely sources.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    If the best polls at this stage of Ed Milibands time as LotO had become reality, he’d have been PM too

    But he had no pandemic to hold him back and hide him from public view. In reality , I suspect that midterm in this Parliament will begin in late 2022 - ie a year or so into the return to normal politics.
    He hasn't been hidden from public view, he has had prime time tv specials to address the governments stance on Covid, as well as his Tears for Piers. Probably been on tv more than any other LotO, at a time where people were more invested in politics than ever, and couldnt leave the house!

    What percentage of members of the public have ever met a LotO anyway? and what % of thaose have been so dazzled that they changed their vote???
    Very few people have been tuned in to normal party politics since March 2020. That may now be changing. Much of any exposure received by Starmer has been in support of the Government. The cut and thrust of political debate has been missing - if only because few electors would have been receptive to it. Very similar to what we saw during World War 2.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,675
    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like non Taliban will have a role in the new Afghan Gov't as influential as the Lib Dems in the 2010-2015 Gov't.

    Was there a hung parliament in the recent election? :tongue:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,632
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like non Taliban will have a role in the new Afghan Gov't as influential as the Lib Dems in the 2010-2015 Gov't.

    Though at least Clegg, Davey, Huhne and Clegg knew Cameron and Osborne would not behead them if they mucked things up
    If anything the LDs were the big proponents of decapitation.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    Maybe they'll release a song to make it seem more progressive

    "My Sharia Law, lovely as a summer day
    My Sharia Law, distant as the milky way
    My Sharia Law, pretty little one that I adore
    You're the only girl my heart beats for
    How I wish that you were mine"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449

    Scott_xP said:

    Paging SeanT...

    Sea Knight 154038 has been disabled and left at Kabul International according to the son of the pilot. She has been serving since 1967 to include the evacuation of Saigon. The only CH-46 to fly non stop during the Kabul evacuation. https://twitter.com/The_Sourkraut/status/1427400331206463497/photo/1

    Ha, snap
    Give it another 50 years and someone will be very glad to acquire it. Like the Hinds (no, not that kind) and FT tanks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP9huCf-iZM
    https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/69-A-104-Afghan-Hind.pdf
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,438
    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    If the best polls at this stage of Ed Milibands time as LotO had become reality, he’d have been PM too

    But he had no pandemic to hold him back and hide him from public view. In reality , I suspect that midterm in this Parliament will begin in late 2022 - ie a year or so into the return to normal politics.
    He hasn't been hidden from public view, he has had prime time tv specials to address the governments stance on Covid, as well as his Tears for Piers. Probably been on tv more than any other LotO, at a time where people were more invested in politics than ever, and couldnt leave the house!

    What percentage of members of the public have ever met a LotO anyway? and what % of thaose have been so dazzled that they changed their vote???
    Very few people have been tuned in to normal party politics since March 2020. That may now be changing. Much of any exposure received by Starmer has been in support of the Government. The cut and thrust of political debate has been missing - if only because few electors would have been receptive to it. Very similar to what we saw during World War 2.
    He is too restoring the Commons as the place of Government. A huge feather in his cap.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    isam said:

    At the same stage of their spell as LotO

    Mar 82 Michael Foot's Labour was leading Maggie's Tories by 1.5%, (GE Result 14.2% Tories)
    Feb 85 Neil Kinnock's Labour was level pegging with Maggie (GE 11.4% Tories)
    Nov 93 John Smith's Labour led John Major's Tories by 22%, (GE 12.5% Labour)
    Nov 95 Tony Blair's Labour led Major by 30% (GE 12.5% Labour)
    Oct 98 Hague's Tories trailed Blair's Labour by 27% (GE 9% Lab)
    Jan 03 IDS's Tories trailed Blair's Labour by 3% (GE 3%)
    Apr 08 Cameron's Tories led Brown's Labour by 8% (GE 7.2% Tories)
    Jan 12 EdM's Labour led Cameron's Tories by 2% (GE 6.6% Tories)
    Jan 17 Jezza's Labour trailed TM's Tories by 9% (GE 2.5% Tories)

    Hague and Jezza the only two to make ground. IDS had gone before the 05 Election


    June 1961 Macmillan's Tory Government led Gaitskell's Labour opposition. Labour won the 1964 election by 2%.
    I doubt that any of these precedents have much relevance at all in the the context of the pandemic.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    "Thousands could have isolated for no reason due to Covid app error, says source

    Whitehall whistleblower says Matt Hancock was told of mistake where people were classed as close contacts for five days, not two, before he resigned"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/covid-app-pinged-close-contacts-in-prior-five-days-not-two-says-source
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    If the best polls at this stage of Ed Milibands time as LotO had become reality, he’d have been PM too

    But he had no pandemic to hold him back and hide him from public view. In reality , I suspect that midterm in this Parliament will begin in late 2022 - ie a year or so into the return to normal politics.
    He hasn't been hidden from public view, he has had prime time tv specials to address the governments stance on Covid, as well as his Tears for Piers. Probably been on tv more than any other LotO, at a time where people were more invested in politics than ever, and couldnt leave the house!

    What percentage of members of the public have ever met a LotO anyway? and what % of thaose have been so dazzled that they changed their vote???
    Very few people have been tuned in to normal party politics since March 2020. That may now be changing. Much of any exposure received by Starmer has been in support of the Government. The cut and thrust of political debate has been missing - if only because few electors would have been receptive to it. Very similar to what we saw during World War 2.
    I don't see it that way, I think he has more airtime than any other LotO, and that face to face meetings are insignificant.

    But you might be right, we will find out in time
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,930
    Andy_JS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A country is only as strong as the willingness of the people of that country to fight for it. It seems like ordinary Afghans weren't interested in fighting for the country the Americans and other western nations had been attempting to set up for the last 20 years.

    I simply don't know enough about Afghanistan to know whether this is true or not or whether the withdrawal of essential US air cover made it impossible or very difficult for the Afghans to fight effectively. And, once the withdrawal was announced and the deal with the Taliban made the US effectively made itself a lame duck ally and signalled to Afghanis that it was content for the Taliban to be in power. So why would anyone fight then.

    But I find something frankly revolting in the way the US are justifying their actions which will have awful consequences for very many brave Afghanis by branding Afghanis cowards.

    There is plenty of cowardice on display and quite a lot if it is coming from the US. Yesterday 56 schoolgirls were slaughtered. A female Afghani MP, interviewed yesterday on the Today programme, is staying to protect her people even though she knows the risks she faces. A female mayor is waiting for the knock on the door and expects to be killed.

    How dare Biden call these people cowards.

    Maybe the US should never have been in Afghanistan. But there are honourable ways of departing and dishonourable ones. Biden's apologia sought to justify the latter. Yuck.
    Not just that.

    Very very few of us alive in Western Europe today have been put in the sort of situation where our courage has been tested like that. That's a blessing we should all be thankful for. But given a choice between resisting ruthless killers and keeping my head down, I don't know what I would do- even thinking about my tweenage daughters watching Frozen in the next room. I might hope, but I can't know. And two things follow from that;

    The first is to be grateful that I live here and now.

    The second is to never condemn those who have been tested and found wanting.
    The reason the Nazis were defeated in 1945 is because people were prepared to risk their lives to make it happen. And millions did die doing so. That was only a couple of generations ago.

    Wrt Afghanistan, the Taliban must have a lot of support among the population for them to be able to take over the country so quickly.
    Well there's some evidence for that, given the number of "green on blue" casualties over the course of the occupation (at one point running as high as 15% of US casualties).

    Those saying Biden accused them of "cowardice" are, I think, wrong. Rather, he said that the ANA wasn't in the end prepared to fight, which is not the same thing at all.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 6,015
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    Maybe they'll release a song to make it seem more progressive

    "My Sharia Law, lovely as a summer day
    My Sharia Law, distant as the milky way
    My Sharia Law, pretty little one that I adore
    You're the only girl my heart beats for
    How I wish that you were mine"
    Never gonna stop, give it up, such a dirty mind
    I always get it up for the touch of the younger kind
    My, my, my, my, my
    M-m-m-my Sharia
    M-m-m-my Sharia
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,714

    Emmanuel Macron has been accused of pandering to the far right after he said France should have a robust plan to “anticipate and protect itself from a wave of migrants” from Afghanistan.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/macron-accused-of-pandering-to-far-right-over-afghan-crisis

    Makes you wonder what the reaction would be if Boris said something along those lines...

    They'd be horrified - indeed Macron suggested it should be a coordinated EU response. Suddenly it all becomes very sensible.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441

    Omnium said:

    I don't think Starmer will ever be PM.

    (Only in part in jest: I'm mainly influenced by his awful shirt collar in the header above.)

    I don't trust his hair. It is way, way too ambitious.....
    Now, normally I would not comment on a politician's personal appearance on the grounds of general decorum & good taste -- but then, this is pb.com and decorum & good taste have never stopped anyone else before ....

    So, should SKS's skin be looking so ... well, errr... gammony in colour?

    What is happening to Keir's face? There have been a number of recent photos when he has looked extremely red indeed. E.g.,

    https://tinyurl.com/z87knaxv

    I would hesitate to undertake serious diagnosis on the basis of a few random photographs without any medical training -- but then this is pb.com, and complete lack of expertise has never stopped anyone else before.

    So, I'd say that skin colouring is pretty damn unhealthy .

    If it was me that colour, I'd be looking to move into the slow lane.
    He has always looked like that, bit of an old school boozer's look.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449

    Omnium said:

    I don't think Starmer will ever be PM.

    (Only in part in jest: I'm mainly influenced by his awful shirt collar in the header above.)

    I don't trust his hair. It is way, way too ambitious.....
    Now, normally I would not comment on a politician's personal appearance on the grounds of general decorum & good taste -- but then, this is pb.com and decorum & good taste have never stopped anyone else before ....

    So, should SKS's skin be looking so ... well, errr... gammony in colour?

    What is happening to Keir's face? There have been a number of recent photos when he has looked extremely red indeed. E.g.,

    https://tinyurl.com/z87knaxv

    I would hesitate to undertake serious diagnosis on the basis of a few random photographs without any medical training -- but then this is pb.com, and complete lack of expertise has never stopped anyone else before.

    So, I'd say that skin colouring is pretty damn unhealthy .

    If it was me that colour, I'd be looking to move into the slow lane.
    Sunburn on holiday? It is that time of year. Looks like a Glaswegian back from the trades holiday.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    Maybe they'll release a song to make it seem more progressive

    "My Sharia Law, lovely as a summer day
    My Sharia Law, distant as the milky way
    My Sharia Law, pretty little one that I adore
    You're the only girl my heart beats for
    How I wish that you were mine"
    Don't think they are keen on singing. Perhaps a poem.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sounds like non Taliban will have a role in the new Afghan Gov't as influential as the Lib Dems in the 2010-2015 Gov't.

    Though at least Clegg, Davey, Huhne and Cable knew Cameron and Osborne would not behead them if they mucked things up
    Although my understanding is that such a condition will be added to future coalition agreements.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,503
    What was the Covid number?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,782
    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    They know how credulous some in the West are.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,356
    edited August 17

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A country is only as strong as the willingness of the people of that country to fight for it. It seems like ordinary Afghans weren't interested in fighting for the country the Americans and other western nations had been attempting to set up for the last 20 years.

    I simply don't know enough about Afghanistan to know whether this is true or not or whether the withdrawal of essential US air cover made it impossible or very difficult for the Afghans to fight effectively. And, once the withdrawal was announced and the deal with the Taliban made the US effectively made itself a lame duck ally and signalled to Afghanis that it was content for the Taliban to be in power. So why would anyone fight then.

    But I find something frankly revolting in the way the US are justifying their actions which will have awful consequences for very many brave Afghanis by branding Afghanis cowards.

    There is plenty of cowardice on display and quite a lot if it is coming from the US. Yesterday 56 schoolgirls were slaughtered. A female Afghani MP, interviewed yesterday on the Today programme, is staying to protect her people even though she knows the risks she faces. A female mayor is waiting for the knock on the door and expects to be killed.

    How dare Biden call these people cowards.

    Maybe the US should never have been in Afghanistan. But there are honourable ways of departing and dishonourable ones. Biden's apologia sought to justify the latter. Yuck.
    Not just that.

    Very very few of us alive in Western Europe today have been put in the sort of situation where our courage has been tested like that. That's a blessing we should all be thankful for. But given a choice between resisting ruthless killers and keeping my head down, I don't know what I would do- even thinking about my tweenage daughters watching Frozen in the next room. I might hope, but I can't know. And two things follow from that;

    The first is to be grateful that I live here and now.

    The second is to never condemn those who have been tested and found wanting.
    Absolutely. A thinking person's hindsight always hovers between how you hope you would have behaved in a particular situation and how you suspect you might have behaved.
    I am quite sure I would not have been a hero in such a situation. I'd keep my head down and hope for the best.
    I think we're all capable of surprising ourselves, on the good and bad side of the ledger of course.
    In my life, I have done both. And both were a surprise to me.
    I think most of us have it in us to be brave if other people are people are being brave. Conversely, if those around us are running away, we'll likely do so as well.
    The value of strong leaders right there.
    One of the reasons I was briefly excited by Rory Stewart's short-lived independent political career is that he struck me as the sort of leader I would be willing to be inspired by (despite him being a Tory).

    I can't think of any other British politician in recent decades who has approached that, but evidently very few other people agreed with me.

    We need better leadership if we are to get through the century in decent shape.
    I've been impressed by Stewart for years, and whilst I cut the government a certain amount of slack over the pandemic reaction, I do feel either him or Hunt would probably have done a better job (some of the comments on here from last March when Stewart tweeted about the seriousness of the pandemic are, with hindsight, tragicomic).

    If the Conservative Party are sensible, they'd try to bring him back into the fold. If they'd had him as London mayoral candidate this year they might just have won. But I do wonder if he'd want the gig now, or to be associated with Johnson's party at all.
    Rory Stewart could still be a Tory MP. Others who lost the whip when he did were readmitted, stood and won in 2019. He chose to take a different path, which is sad. As MP for Penrith and Border he had massive support and would have won by a mile. (again).

    Of the 21 who had the whip removed on that occasion 10 had it restored. I wish Rory had been one of them. The party is much bigger than the particular group in command and control positions at any one time.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,930
    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    No one. The question is how regressive the new regime will be, not whether.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,714
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    Themselves - in their eyes sharia discrimination is not discrimination I'd assume.
    Quite - in the same way they will tolerate homosexuals before flinging them from rooftops!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704
    Andy_JS said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    They know how credulous some in the West are.
    Surprised they didn't talk more about imperialism or anti colonialism, theyd have gained many fans.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884
    I'm in Greece and have tuned in for @FrancisUrquhart's Covid stats. Where are they? What are they?

    SKS has a strangely big head in that photo and yes, needs some collar stiffeners.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,930
    kinabalu said:

    Lozza's take on things is admirably clear -

    Bad Times make hard men. Hard men make good times. Good times make soft men. Soft men make bad times.

    We are in bad times. We need MEN.

    — Laurence Fox ✌🏼🇬🇧✌🏼 (@LozzaFox) August 17, 2021
    A sentiment the Taliban themselves could approve of.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,707
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    Maybe they'll release a song to make it seem more progressive

    "My Sharia Law, lovely as a summer day
    My Sharia Law, distant as the milky way
    My Sharia Law, pretty little one that I adore
    You're the only girl my heart beats for
    How I wish that you were mine"
    Don't think they are keen on singing. Perhaps a poem.
    Woven into some beautiful caligraphy
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,714
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Taliban to implement sharia law and in the next breath say there will be no discrimination against women. Who exactly are they kidding?

    The South Africans used to call apartheid "equal but separate". It was equally bullshit.
    There are certainly small pockets in the UK which would like Sharia to operate within their ambit.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,632
    TOPPING said:

    I'm in Greece and have tuned in for @FrancisUrquhart's Covid stats. Where are they? What are they?

    SKS has a strangely big head in that photo and yes, needs some collar stiffeners.

    The numbers are posted here: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,224
    rcs1000 said:

    What was the Covid number?

    26,852 and 170 deaths
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 661
    darkage said:
    He'd bought a fake titles as Lord Miles Routledge and had changed his name on credit cards, thinking that it would give him a negotiation position.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    I'm in Greece and have tuned in for @FrancisUrquhart's Covid stats. Where are they? What are they?

    SKS has a strangely big head in that photo and yes, needs some collar stiffeners.

    The numbers are posted here: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
    Thanks. I do prefer them from @FrancisUrquhart however.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,704

    rcs1000 said:

    What was the Covid number?

    26,852 and 170 deaths
    Still ticking up on 7 days, but not explodingly so.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,441
    I have been delving into No10s flickr account for photos of Boris's watch, and sent them to the tweeter linked to by @Quincel - transpires that said timepiece has been 13-14 mins fast for months

    The haters cried wolf again

    https://twitter.com/SpotMonkey/status/1427614095889551363?s=20

    https://twitter.com/SpotMonkey/status/1427616498693165060?s=20

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,176
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Paging SeanT...

    Sea Knight 154038 has been disabled and left at Kabul International according to the son of the pilot. She has been serving since 1967 to include the evacuation of Saigon. The only CH-46 to fly non stop during the Kabul evacuation. https://twitter.com/The_Sourkraut/status/1427400331206463497/photo/1

    Ha, snap
    Give it another 50 years and someone will be very glad to acquire it. Like the Hinds (no, not that kind) and FT tanks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP9huCf-iZM
    https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/69-A-104-Afghan-Hind.pdf
    I'd read about the FT17s.

    One of the FB rabbit holes I've fallen down is German Helmet Collectors (feckin worse bickering than here). Afghanistan bought a load of mainly WWI but also some WWII Stalhelm in the 50s, collectors are a bit sniffy about them.

    I''d like to see one of these:

    'A curious sidenote is that some Afghans took rusty old stahlhelms and soldered on random pieces of tin and aluminum for a “barbarian” appearance; these were then peddled as “relics of Alexander The Great’s invasion of Afghanistan” to uninformed buyers. (The same trick was also tried with ex-Soviet SSh-68s which were abandoned en masse when the USSR withdrew in 1988.)'
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,632
    isam said:

    I have been delving into No10s flickr account for photos of Boris's watch, and sent them to the tweeter linked to by @Quincel - transpires that said timepiece has been 13-14 mins fast for months

    The haters cried wolf again

    https://twitter.com/SpotMonkey/status/1427614095889551363?s=20

    https://twitter.com/SpotMonkey/status/1427616498693165060?s=20

    BDS is a terrible curse. :smiley:
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,707
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What was the Covid number?

    26,852 and 170 deaths
    Still ticking up on 7 days, but not explodingly so.
    All 3 numbers effectively just bumping around ...
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited August 17
    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    If the best polls at this stage of Ed Milibands time as LotO had become reality, he’d have been PM too

    But he had no pandemic to hold him back and hide him from public view. In reality , I suspect that midterm in this Parliament will begin in late 2022 - ie a year or so into the return to normal politics.
    He hasn't been hidden from public view, he has had prime time tv specials to address the governments stance on Covid, as well as his Tears for Piers. Probably been on tv more than any other LotO, at a time where people were more invested in politics than ever, and couldnt leave the house!

    What percentage of members of the public have ever met a LotO anyway? and what % of thaose have been so dazzled that they changed their vote???
    Very few people have been tuned in to normal party politics since March 2020. That may now be changing. Much of any exposure received by Starmer has been in support of the Government. The cut and thrust of political debate has been missing - if only because few electors would have been receptive to it. Very similar to what we saw during World War 2.
    I don't see it that way, I think he has more airtime than any other LotO, and that face to face meetings are insignificant.

    But you might be right, we will find out in time
    I am not refering to face to face meetings at all - rather his disappearance from the media and general public comment. For the first few months of 2021 Starmer was pretty invisible - frozen out by the 'vaccine bounce'. Self inflicted wounds highlighted by the holding of by elections at Hartlepool and Batley & Spen provided exceptions to that - for which he bears responsibility.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    darkage said:
    Ah, the student doing his best to undermine the intellectual reputation of Loughborough University by going on hols to Kabul a few days ago. Apparently cheap and the food is good.


    'His mother Susan was distraught when approached at the family home, explaining to The Sun, she had urgently been awaiting a call from the Foreign Office to discover whether her son would be kept safe.'

    'In earlier interviews, he had boasted: “I like risk, I’m a banker, so it makes sense,” Routledge told The Times.'
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,438
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A country is only as strong as the willingness of the people of that country to fight for it. It seems like ordinary Afghans weren't interested in fighting for the country the Americans and other western nations had been attempting to set up for the last 20 years.

    I simply don't know enough about Afghanistan to know whether this is true or not or whether the withdrawal of essential US air cover made it impossible or very difficult for the Afghans to fight effectively. And, once the withdrawal was announced and the deal with the Taliban made the US effectively made itself a lame duck ally and signalled to Afghanis that it was content for the Taliban to be in power. So why would anyone fight then.

    But I find something frankly revolting in the way the US are justifying their actions which will have awful consequences for very many brave Afghanis by branding Afghanis cowards.

    There is plenty of cowardice on display and quite a lot if it is coming from the US. Yesterday 56 schoolgirls were slaughtered. A female Afghani MP, interviewed yesterday on the Today programme, is staying to protect her people even though she knows the risks she faces. A female mayor is waiting for the knock on the door and expects to be killed.

    How dare Biden call these people cowards.

    Maybe the US should never have been in Afghanistan. But there are honourable ways of departing and dishonourable ones. Biden's apologia sought to justify the latter. Yuck.
    Not just that.

    Very very few of us alive in Western Europe today have been put in the sort of situation where our courage has been tested like that. That's a blessing we should all be thankful for. But given a choice between resisting ruthless killers and keeping my head down, I don't know what I would do- even thinking about my tweenage daughters watching Frozen in the next room. I might hope, but I can't know. And two things follow from that;

    The first is to be grateful that I live here and now.

    The second is to never condemn those who have been tested and found wanting.
    Absolutely. A thinking person's hindsight always hovers between how you hope you would have behaved in a particular situation and how you suspect you might have behaved.
    I am quite sure I would not have been a hero in such a situation. I'd keep my head down and hope for the best.
    I think we're all capable of surprising ourselves, on the good and bad side of the ledger of course.
    In my life, I have done both. And both were a surprise to me.
    I think most of us have it in us to be brave if other people are people are being brave. Conversely, if those around us are running away, we'll likely do so as well.
    The value of strong leaders right there.
    One of the reasons I was briefly excited by Rory Stewart's short-lived independent political career is that he struck me as the sort of leader I would be willing to be inspired by (despite him being a Tory).

    I can't think of any other British politician in recent decades who has approached that, but evidently very few other people agreed with me.

    We need better leadership if we are to get through the century in decent shape.
    I've been impressed by Stewart for years, and whilst I cut the government a certain amount of slack over the pandemic reaction, I do feel either him or Hunt would probably have done a better job (some of the comments on here from last March when Stewart tweeted about the seriousness of the pandemic are, with hindsight, tragicomic).

    If the Conservative Party are sensible, they'd try to bring him back into the fold. If they'd had him as London mayoral candidate this year they might just have won. But I do wonder if he'd want the gig now, or to be associated with Johnson's party at all.
    Rory Stewart could still be a Tory MP. Others who lost the whip when he did were readmitted, stood and won in 2019. He chose to take a different path, which is sad. As MP for Penrith and Border he had massive support and would have won by a mile. (again).

    Of the 21 who had the whip removed on that occasion 10 had it restored. I wish Rory had been one of them. The party is much bigger than the particular group in command and control positions at any one time.

    I'd be hugely keen to get him to rejoin, and then to support him in any seat he might choose to try to represent.

    I'd not quite like him as a future PM. (But that could change)
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,377

    Omnium said:

    I don't think Starmer will ever be PM.

    (Only in part in jest: I'm mainly influenced by his awful shirt collar in the header above.)

    I don't trust his hair. It is way, way too ambitious.....
    Now, normally I would not comment on a politician's personal appearance on the grounds of general decorum & good taste -- but then, this is pb.com and decorum & good taste have never stopped anyone else before ....

    So, should SKS's skin be looking so ... well, errr... gammony in colour?

    What is happening to Keir's face? There have been a number of recent photos when he has looked extremely red indeed. E.g.,

    https://tinyurl.com/z87knaxv

    I would hesitate to undertake serious diagnosis on the basis of a few random photographs without any medical training -- but then this is pb.com, and complete lack of expertise has never stopped anyone else before.

    So, I'd say that skin colouring is pretty damn unhealthy .

    If it was me that colour, I'd be looking to move into the slow lane.
    He may well have Irish ancestry. Those of us of such lineage generally go a kind of pink colour this time of year, and then return to bluey white in October.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806
    isam said:

    I have been delving into No10s flickr account for photos of Boris's watch, and sent them to the tweeter linked to by @Quincel - transpires that said timepiece has been 13-14 mins fast for months

    The haters cried wolf again

    https://twitter.com/SpotMonkey/status/1427614095889551363?s=20

    https://twitter.com/SpotMonkey/status/1427616498693165060?s=20

    Come on, that just means some flunky* has been hastily detailed to go through the flickr account and edit all the EXIF timestamps :wink:

    *Fatima, maybe. Might not be quite what she dreamed of, of course, when she found out her next job would be in 'cyber'...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,884
    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    justin124 said:

    isam said:

    If the best polls at this stage of Ed Milibands time as LotO had become reality, he’d have been PM too

    But he had no pandemic to hold him back and hide him from public view. In reality , I suspect that midterm in this Parliament will begin in late 2022 - ie a year or so into the return to normal politics.
    He hasn't been hidden from public view, he has had prime time tv specials to address the governments stance on Covid, as well as his Tears for Piers. Probably been on tv more than any other LotO, at a time where people were more invested in politics than ever, and couldnt leave the house!

    What percentage of members of the public have ever met a LotO anyway? and what % of thaose have been so dazzled that they changed their vote???
    Very few people have been tuned in to normal party politics since March 2020. That may now be changing. Much of any exposure received by Starmer has been in support of the Government. The cut and thrust of political debate has been missing - if only because few electors would have been receptive to it. Very similar to what we saw during World War 2.
    I don't see it that way, I think he has more airtime than any other LotO, and that face to face meetings are insignificant.

    But you might be right, we will find out in time
    I am not refering to face to face meetings at all - rather his disappearance from the media and general public comment. For the first few months of 2021 Starmer was pretty invisible - frozen out by the 'vaccine bounce'. Self inflicted wounds highlighted by the holding of by elections at Hartlepool and Batley & Spen provided exceptions to that - for which he bears responsibility.
    Justin, he has yet to oppose a government vote in the House of Commons.

    There has been precisely no opposition for the past 18 months. The Labour Party has supported the government on every possible occasion.

    And now he wants people to support the Labour Party.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,806
    Carnyx said:

    darkage said:
    Ah, the student doing his best to undermine the intellectual reputation of Loughborough University by going on hols to Kabul a few days ago. Apparently cheap and the food is good.


    'His mother Susan was distraught when approached at the family home, explaining to The Sun, she had urgently been awaiting a call from the Foreign Office to discover whether her son would be kept safe.'

    'In earlier interviews, he had boasted: “I like risk, I’m a banker, so it makes sense,” Routledge told The Times.'
    Typo in that final quote? 'b' in banker should be a 'w'?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,449
    Monkeys said:

    darkage said:
    He'd bought a fake titles as Lord Miles Routledge and had changed his name on credit cards, thinking that it would give him a negotiation position.
    And then said so on the net, before he got out.
This discussion has been closed.