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How Starmer could become PM – politicalbetting.com

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  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Big development in the *real* story taking place at the moment. The Alpaca will not be executed - today.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-58241387
  • Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    Boris has been kicking a reshuffle into the long grass a number of times already. We can all see how piss poor certain ministers are.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Given you're not there and don't really know what's happening, does it not give you any pause for thought to think that an army which kept going despite thousands of casualties a year fell to bits in the last 2 weeks. No 2nd thought that maybe something has happened on the ground to precepitate the change?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    Should he have been in Kabul clearing the runway?

    I do wonder what people think a British Foreign Secretary can do in this situation
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,257
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    I'm still not sure on this.

    Take Blair, he was genuinely popular, seen to be both competent and 'good' by many. Iraq shattered that. He was outed as a liar. People didn't like him any more and suddenly were open to alternatives, first Brown, then Cameron.

    Biden, his main selling point is not being Trump. I don't get the sense that he's massively popular or seen as likely to be a great president. What was that video? Perfectly adequate in the circumstances? He's likely seen to have cocked this up and to an extent, he has (although all options were quite bad and the decision was, to an exent, already in motion). But his main selling point of 'not Trump' remains.

    The obviously the spectre of a terrorist attack that can be linked to this and that would be greatly damaging. Could easily lose him the election or lead to a challenge for the nomination, perhaps. He's also vulnerable to a sane GOP candidate, but that was always the case (and at present a sane GOP candidate does not look that likely - it seems set to be Trump or a Trump mini-me. If the GOP stick with Trump then Biden's main (his only, really?) selling point is intact. Would any of your anti-Trump friends vote for Trump versus Biden over this?
    A fair point. No, they would still vote Biden over Trump

    But they - my American friends - are genuinely ashamed and angry and I suspect they would like a new choice as Democrat candidate. From now on, every time they look at Biden they will think of the death and chaos at Kabul airport. The bodies falling from planes

    And this is just the start. What if the Taliban revert to type (I think they will) and start start stoning and beheading? What if they slaughter American allies in Kabul? What if - as you suggest - they export terror all over again?

    Chances of Biden standing again in 2024 are way down, now
    Maybe (genuinely 'maybe', I don't know). Barring a terrorist attack that can be linked it depends on bad are the things the Taliban do (answer: bad to very bad) and how much coverage that gets (answer: uncertain?). It's news when US soldiers are getting killed, or Westerners beheaded/held hostage. Is it news that the Taliban do what they normally do to their own people? It should be, but it wasn't really big news pre 9/11 (the biggest thing I remember was when they blew up those statues). But it may be news, particularly if they publicly go after the female politicians, female professionals etc in a public rather than a more private (e.g. just stop them having freedom, rather than killing) way.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Dura_Ace said:

    tlg86 said:
    Imagine sitting on the same bog where you know for a fact that Gove has strained and gurned to push out a shit. Chills the blood.
    One can imagine a remodeling of the bathroom being a priority. The buyers feeling an urge to "put their own stamp" on it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,145

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    Should he have been in Kabul clearing the runway?

    I do wonder what people think a British Foreign Secretary can do in this situation
    Not be on holiday? Seriously.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Classic CNN....mostly peaceful protests again...

    CNN reporter dons burka to report on Taliban fighters in Kabul and says they 'seem friendly' despite chanting 'Death to America' and telling her to stand aside because she's a woman

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899213/Bari-Weiss-hammers-Ted-Cruz-criticizing-CNN-reporter-Kabul-said-Taliban-friendly.html

    Classic selective editing:
    'They're just chanting death to America, but they seem friendly at the same time,' she said. 'It's utterly bizarre.

    And it wasn't a burka.
    PJ O'Rourke recounted being present at a Hezbollah rally, in Lebanon in the 80s. A young chap, in between chanting "Death To America" was asking him about the pros and cons of which American university to study dentistry at.
    Good one - but one does wonder how many of these type of stories from professional humorists are true.
    I met a couple of people at university in the UK, who would have fit the profile. "Death To The West, but first I need to go to Cocktail night - 2-for-1 on Thursdays at the Union..."
    Yes, I bet you did, Malmesbury. They seem to seek you out, those types.
    In fairness these types aren't unknown. Even though I am a liberal I do get irritated by other liberals who post on Facebook lots of marginal local green initiatives and then post their business class flight details for their hols on the other side of the planet. At least if you are going to be a hypocrite keep it secret. Lack of awareness!
    These weren't liberals. People from countries where Death To The West is what you chant at the government organised demos.

    Reactionary would describe their social policies, generally.
    Yes I know. Just giving another example of lack of awareness.
    Oh, that happens.

    The most ferocious defense of Communism I recall was by an antique Oxford don. He was crying about the fall of the USSR etc. While sitting in his study, lined with nice editions. In a lovely house just up the road from the college which had supported him all his life. Which made much of it's money from renting property......
    It's not so much conscious hypocrisy as a real cognitive dissonance. A real inability to comprehend that the people you fervently support would make life very nasty for you if they won.
    A lack of realisation that the comfortable life you lead is down to the very structures you would destroy - and that you would miss that life when it was gone. Rather than glory in living 6 to an apartment For! The! Cause!

    He was utterly passionate about the beauty and nobility of The Communist Cause. I actually felt sorry for him.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    Should he have been in Kabul clearing the runway?

    I do wonder what people think a British Foreign Secretary can do in this situation
    1. Wouldn't be averse to the idea.

    2. More than fuckall.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Given you're not there and don't really know what's happening, does it not give you any pause for thought to think that an army which kept going despite thousands of casualties a year fell to bits in the last 2 weeks. No 2nd thought that maybe something has happened on the ground to precepitate the change?
    The counter-insurgency strategy depended upon good Afghan military units being able to call on air power, when they met stiff opposition. The US cut off their air power, and also sabotaged Afghan airpower by removing logistical support.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited August 2021
    eek said:

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    And who could Boris replace him with - the simple fact is few people who are any good go into politics
    Somebody from the Officer's Mess?

    Ellwood has been all over the media like a rash over the past couple of days.

    It wouldn't surprise me if Raab was moved. Also I notice Patel has hired ex-conhome's Jonathan Isaby and intends to fight hard to keep the home office. Very hard.

    Smart move from Patel that. Oddly.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Quincel said:

    Big development in the *real* story taking place at the moment. The Alpaca will not be executed - today.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-58241387

    How did Keir Starmer manage to put himself at the centre of that story?

    image
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    By the standards of the present Cabinet would put him on line for promotion to Chancellor.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,145

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Classic CNN....mostly peaceful protests again...

    CNN reporter dons burka to report on Taliban fighters in Kabul and says they 'seem friendly' despite chanting 'Death to America' and telling her to stand aside because she's a woman

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899213/Bari-Weiss-hammers-Ted-Cruz-criticizing-CNN-reporter-Kabul-said-Taliban-friendly.html

    Classic selective editing:
    'They're just chanting death to America, but they seem friendly at the same time,' she said. 'It's utterly bizarre.

    And it wasn't a burka.
    PJ O'Rourke recounted being present at a Hezbollah rally, in Lebanon in the 80s. A young chap, in between chanting "Death To America" was asking him about the pros and cons of which American university to study dentistry at.
    Good one - but one does wonder how many of these type of stories from professional humorists are true.
    I met a couple of people at university in the UK, who would have fit the profile. "Death To The West, but first I need to go to Cocktail night - 2-for-1 on Thursdays at the Union..."
    Yes, I bet you did, Malmesbury. They seem to seek you out, those types.
    In fairness these types aren't unknown. Even though I am a liberal I do get irritated by other liberals who post on Facebook lots of marginal local green initiatives and then post their business class flight details for their hols on the other side of the planet. At least if you are going to be a hypocrite keep it secret. Lack of awareness!
    These weren't liberals. People from countries where Death To The West is what you chant at the government organised demos.

    Reactionary would describe their social policies, generally.
    Yes I know. Just giving another example of lack of awareness.
    Oh, that happens.

    The most ferocious defense of Communism I recall was by an antique Oxford don. He was crying about the fall of the USSR etc. While sitting in his study, lined with nice editions. In a lovely house just up the road from the college which had supported him all his life. Which made much of it's money from renting property......
    It's not so much conscious hypocrisy as a real cognitive dissonance. A real inability to comprehend that the people you fervently support would make life very nasty for you if they won.
    A lack of realisation that the comfortable life you lead is down to the very structures you would destroy - and that you would miss that life when it was gone. Rather than glory in living 6 to an apartment For! The! Cause!

    He was utterly passionate about the beauty and nobility of The Communist Cause. I actually felt sorry for him.
    If he is no longer with us, is it reasonable to name him? I have one person in mind, but just wonder if it is the right one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think Starmer will perform significantly better than most think and has a good chance at being PM of a minority Government. My view is he would be a lot better at that than LOTO

    He will not get anywhere near office so we will never know.
    He's a lot more popular than Corbyn
    I would rather suggest that he isn't as aggressively unpopular as Corbyn was, with a large chunk of the electorate.

    Outside of a portion of Maomentum, Starmer isn't disliked, from what I can see in polling.

    He needs to come up with a pitch as to why people should vote *for* him, though.
    I concede.

    But this a much better starting point than Corbyn, Ed M
    Jeremy Corbyn went quickly from loved in 2017 to hated in 2019 and CCHQ will be hoping – and certainly planning – to effect the same transformation on the current leader. Soon after Starmer was elected, there were a number of posts here and elsewhere blaming his time as DPP for failure to prosecute or pursue various ne'er-do-wells and these may have been trial runs.
    Interestingly, his opponents on the ultra-left in the Labour party are trying to use his time in DPP to make him out to be some kind of heartless oppressor of the poor/minorities.

    There is only one area in the DPP thing that could really hurt him - but I don't think that he would have been stupid enough to be connected to it.
    The “Rotherham problem”, or Jimmy Savile?
    It does not really matter if Starmer was involved or not. If the suggestion is made on social media, under the radar, who will even know to refute it?
    Unlike you to be so cynical. I think it does actually matter whether Starmer was involved or not. It would be nice to focus on the truth.
    Lots of things should matter: few things do. I expect CCHQ's fact-checking service will give them a clean bill of health.

    Twitter accuses Tories of misleading public with 'factcheck' foray
    Dominic Raab defends rebranding account during debate and adds: ‘no one gives a toss’

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/20/twitter-accuses-tories-of-misleading-public-in-factcheck-row
    Yes, I know. I'm old-fashioned and naive, I guess. I'd rather follow Michelle Obama's edict, though: when they go low, we should go high.
    Better in the long run. The eventual win counts for more then. The mandate is stronger. It's tempting to give some back, though, it really is. Eg the "Johnson Variant". Not great, but I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't hoping it would take off, like the "Surrender Act" did. But of course it didn't. In which case it's perhaps best not to go there in the 1st place.
    Johnson variant was incredibly school playground stuff. If you are trying to portray yourself as the serious grown up professional, its totally off brand.
    I agree. Almost as childish as calling Starmer Gordon Brittas.
    Or Captain Hindsight? But why does this get a pass from that user?
    That's exactly the point....Boris use of this, like it or not, is his brand. Starmer is trying to cast himself as exactly the opposite. Vote for me, the grown up serious slightly dull politician who doesn't resort to funny names..Mr Forensic Detail.

    And then he does the silly wallpaper stunt and the Johnson variant. And its totally off brand. Where as Boris driving a JCB through a wall, is absolutely him.
    So, to be fair, Johnson should get royally slagged off on any occasion where he looks vaguely competent and across his brief.

    Perhaps we will one day discover if this is so.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Sean_F said:

    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Given you're not there and don't really know what's happening, does it not give you any pause for thought to think that an army which kept going despite thousands of casualties a year fell to bits in the last 2 weeks. No 2nd thought that maybe something has happened on the ground to precepitate the change?
    The counter-insurgency strategy depended upon good Afghan military units being able to call on air power, when they met stiff opposition. The US cut off their air power, and also sabotaged Afghan airpower by removing logistical support.
    Then grampa Joe gives a speech which can best be summarised as 'They're all cowards so stuff them'. Disgraceful doesn't start to cover it.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    Should he have been in Kabul clearing the runway?

    I do wonder what people think a British Foreign Secretary can do in this situation
    1. Wouldn't be averse to the idea.

    2. More than fuckall.
    Which is?

    Tell the Taliban to embrace Western values?
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think Starmer will perform significantly better than most think and has a good chance at being PM of a minority Government. My view is he would be a lot better at that than LOTO

    He will not get anywhere near office so we will never know.
    He's a lot more popular than Corbyn
    I would rather suggest that he isn't as aggressively unpopular as Corbyn was, with a large chunk of the electorate.

    Outside of a portion of Maomentum, Starmer isn't disliked, from what I can see in polling.

    He needs to come up with a pitch as to why people should vote *for* him, though.
    I concede.

    But this a much better starting point than Corbyn, Ed M
    Jeremy Corbyn went quickly from loved in 2017 to hated in 2019 and CCHQ will be hoping – and certainly planning – to effect the same transformation on the current leader. Soon after Starmer was elected, there were a number of posts here and elsewhere blaming his time as DPP for failure to prosecute or pursue various ne'er-do-wells and these may have been trial runs.
    Interestingly, his opponents on the ultra-left in the Labour party are trying to use his time in DPP to make him out to be some kind of heartless oppressor of the poor/minorities.

    There is only one area in the DPP thing that could really hurt him - but I don't think that he would have been stupid enough to be connected to it.
    The “Rotherham problem”, or Jimmy Savile?
    It does not really matter if Starmer was involved or not. If the suggestion is made on social media, under the radar, who will even know to refute it?
    Unlike you to be so cynical. I think it does actually matter whether Starmer was involved or not. It would be nice to focus on the truth.
    Lots of things should matter: few things do. I expect CCHQ's fact-checking service will give them a clean bill of health.

    Twitter accuses Tories of misleading public with 'factcheck' foray
    Dominic Raab defends rebranding account during debate and adds: ‘no one gives a toss’

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/20/twitter-accuses-tories-of-misleading-public-in-factcheck-row
    Yes, I know. I'm old-fashioned and naive, I guess. I'd rather follow Michelle Obama's edict, though: when they go low, we should go high.
    Better in the long run. The eventual win counts for more then. The mandate is stronger. It's tempting to give some back, though, it really is. Eg the "Johnson Variant". Not great, but I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't hoping it would take off, like the "Surrender Act" did. But of course it didn't. In which case it's perhaps best not to go there in the 1st place.
    Johnson variant was incredibly school playground stuff. If you are trying to portray yourself as the serious grown up professional, its totally off brand.
    I agree. Almost as childish as calling Starmer Gordon Brittas.
    Or Captain Hindsight? But why does this get a pass from that user?
    That's exactly the point....Boris use of this, like it or not, is his brand. Starmer is trying to cast himself as exactly the opposite. Vote for me, the grown up serious slightly dull politician who doesn't resort to funny names..Mr Forensic Detail.

    And then he does the silly wallpaper stunt and the Johnson variant. And its totally off brand. Where as Boris driving a JCB through a wall, is absolutely him.
    So, to be fair, Johnson should get royally slagged off on any occasion where he looks vaguely competent and across his brief.

    Perhaps we will one day discover if this is so.
    You might be waiting a very long time......
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    eek said:

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    And who could Boris replace him with - the simple fact is few people who are any good go into politics
    Well, the rumour is that Boris wants to move Gavin Williamson from Education...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    I am surprised Prof Peston hasn't been on the case....

    https://order-order.com/2021/08/17/fact-check-boris-sets-his-watch-12-minutes-fast-to-stop-being-late/

    I actually do something similar. Just 5 mins ahead. I find it useful particular in my car.

    My wife does that with her alarm clock, it’s about 10 minutes fast and she reckons it gives her extra time in the morning - as opposed to taking her a second to realise it’s the wrong time, and hitting snooze once more.

    The car clock adjusts itself from the RDS data stream, and I’m pretty much always looking at a computer or phone with ntp time. I make a point of keeping the (old-fashioned, mechanical) wristwatch adjusted to the phone time evey few days.

    For someone like the PM it’s perhaps not a bad idea, as his movements are all carefully choreographed and involve others. It would be rude to keep people waiting.
    I don’t have any difficulty being on time with the watch set correctly. If I set my watch wrongly, I’d just make an adjustment in my mind.

    Having a PM that cannot be trusted to arrive on time without trying to kid himself by setting his watch wrongly is not a good look.
    I don't mind other people being late - so long as it's just a few minutes - but I can't stand being late myself. This is more of a vice than a virtue, though, because the only way to avoid ever being late is to allow a big buffer in settling off, upshot being I'm absurdly early for most things.

    Re the 'setting the watch wrong' trick, that'll only work if you don't know it's wrong. Haven't followed this particular piece of "Boris" myth-making nonsense but I'm assuming that's the idea. That his wife does this without telling him like he's some adolescent son to be managed.
    Yes. I used to set my watch three minutes fast, but I found that I was continually adjusting for the inaccuracy, which made it pointless.

    I then went through a phase of stubbornly sticking to GMT during the summer, but I've reverted to simply matching railway time as closely as possible.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Classic CNN....mostly peaceful protests again...

    CNN reporter dons burka to report on Taliban fighters in Kabul and says they 'seem friendly' despite chanting 'Death to America' and telling her to stand aside because she's a woman

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899213/Bari-Weiss-hammers-Ted-Cruz-criticizing-CNN-reporter-Kabul-said-Taliban-friendly.html

    Classic selective editing:
    'They're just chanting death to America, but they seem friendly at the same time,' she said. 'It's utterly bizarre.

    And it wasn't a burka.
    PJ O'Rourke recounted being present at a Hezbollah rally, in Lebanon in the 80s. A young chap, in between chanting "Death To America" was asking him about the pros and cons of which American university to study dentistry at.
    Good one - but one does wonder how many of these type of stories from professional humorists are true.
    I met a couple of people at university in the UK, who would have fit the profile. "Death To The West, but first I need to go to Cocktail night - 2-for-1 on Thursdays at the Union..."
    Yes, I bet you did, Malmesbury. They seem to seek you out, those types.
    In fairness these types aren't unknown. Even though I am a liberal I do get irritated by other liberals who post on Facebook lots of marginal local green initiatives and then post their business class flight details for their hols on the other side of the planet. At least if you are going to be a hypocrite keep it secret. Lack of awareness!
    These weren't liberals. People from countries where Death To The West is what you chant at the government organised demos.

    Reactionary would describe their social policies, generally.
    Yes I know. Just giving another example of lack of awareness.
    Oh, that happens.

    The most ferocious defense of Communism I recall was by an antique Oxford don. He was crying about the fall of the USSR etc. While sitting in his study, lined with nice editions. In a lovely house just up the road from the college which had supported him all his life. Which made much of it's money from renting property......
    It's not so much conscious hypocrisy as a real cognitive dissonance. A real inability to comprehend that the people you fervently support would make life very nasty for you if they won.
    A lack of realisation that the comfortable life you lead is down to the very structures you would destroy - and that you would miss that life when it was gone. Rather than glory in living 6 to an apartment For! The! Cause!

    He was utterly passionate about the beauty and nobility of The Communist Cause. I actually felt sorry for him.
    If he is no longer with us, is it reasonable to name him? I have one person in mind, but just wonder if it is the right one.
    No, I don't think I will. He must be dead - was very ancient. There was no nastiness in his espousal of the cause - and I was fairly harsh in front of his students, at that.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited August 2021

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    By the standards of the present Cabinet would put him on line for promotion to Chancellor.
    No vacancy there. Sunak's unwinding of furlough straight into full employment shows that, by far, he is the pick of this bunch.

    His time will surely come. But when?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    I'm still not sure on this.

    Take Blair, he was genuinely popular, seen to be both competent and 'good' by many. Iraq shattered that. He was outed as a liar. People didn't like him any more and suddenly were open to alternatives, first Brown, then Cameron.

    Biden, his main selling point is not being Trump. I don't get the sense that he's massively popular or seen as likely to be a great president. What was that video? Perfectly adequate in the circumstances? He's likely seen to have cocked this up and to an extent, he has (although all options were quite bad and the decision was, to an exent, already in motion). But his main selling point of 'not Trump' remains.

    The obviously the spectre of a terrorist attack that can be linked to this and that would be greatly damaging. Could easily lose him the election or lead to a challenge for the nomination, perhaps. He's also vulnerable to a sane GOP candidate, but that was always the case (and at present a sane GOP candidate does not look that likely - it seems set to be Trump or a Trump mini-me. If the GOP stick with Trump then Biden's main (his only, really?) selling point is intact. Would any of your anti-Trump friends vote for Trump versus Biden over this?
    A fair point. No, they would still vote Biden over Trump

    But they - my American friends - are genuinely ashamed and angry and I suspect they would like a new choice as Democrat candidate. From now on, every time they look at Biden they will think of the death and chaos at Kabul airport. The bodies falling from planes

    And this is just the start. What if the Taliban revert to type (I think they will) and start start stoning and beheading? What if they slaughter American allies in Kabul? What if - as you suggest - they export terror all over again?

    Chances of Biden standing again in 2024 are way down, now
    Well at least that's a bit of a move from 'gone this week'.
    If the US had a parliamentary system, I think this debacle would quite likely be costing Biden his job before it’s done. Not a week but perhaps a month. As it is, the Democrats are in a real pickle. Let him run for the whole term, causing ever more damage not just to US interests but their political brand? Step him down for the empty pantsuit?

    Even a third candidate is going to have a hard time winning, unless they face Trump himself and even then, depends on the candidate. Makes me quite pessimistic that the US will he on the right path from 2024 either.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    Should he have been in Kabul clearing the runway?

    I do wonder what people think a British Foreign Secretary can do in this situation
    He could have liaised with the UK Ambassador at the airport so they didn't swap out experienced consular staff for 18 yo squaddies handling visa applications for starters. Then he might have discussed matters with other G7 Foreign Secretaries to coordinate a more coherent response than we've had so far.....and I'm sure if he'd put his mind to it there are others (India, Pakistan, the Gulf States, for starters) who could have been useful interlocutors - but we're getting "deer in headlights" like we did when Johnson was in hospital.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    I presume these Afghan refugees will be dispersed to Basingstoke, Guildford and Chelmsford.
    In the interests of "levelling up".

    I think we all have a pretty good idea it will be Middlesbrough, Gateshead, Wolverhampton, Blackburn and places like that which will have them in cheap, poor quality, housing.
    More immigration in the places you have mentioned will inevitably make GBNews viewers even angrier. That is a bigger problem for Labour, even when it occurs on the Tories' watch.
    Yes, it's hard to see circumstances where Immigration could play for Labour. Which is a problem, it being firmly established now as a top 3 issue for voters.
    The immigration issue is quite specific, and now relates to people crossing the channel from France.

    The same word was previously used to refer to mass-migration of low-skilled workers from the EU undermining wages, but that was a separate issue which is mostly now resolved.

    Genuine asylum claims, such as from Hong Kong, and the Afghan translators, is a different issue again and commands relatively high support.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    I dont recall much credence veing given to aangus Reed which gave big leads ti the Tories, so one wonders why any attention is being paid to.newcomer Redfield Wilton?
    What success have they had ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,145

    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Classic CNN....mostly peaceful protests again...

    CNN reporter dons burka to report on Taliban fighters in Kabul and says they 'seem friendly' despite chanting 'Death to America' and telling her to stand aside because she's a woman

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899213/Bari-Weiss-hammers-Ted-Cruz-criticizing-CNN-reporter-Kabul-said-Taliban-friendly.html

    Classic selective editing:
    'They're just chanting death to America, but they seem friendly at the same time,' she said. 'It's utterly bizarre.

    And it wasn't a burka.
    PJ O'Rourke recounted being present at a Hezbollah rally, in Lebanon in the 80s. A young chap, in between chanting "Death To America" was asking him about the pros and cons of which American university to study dentistry at.
    Good one - but one does wonder how many of these type of stories from professional humorists are true.
    I met a couple of people at university in the UK, who would have fit the profile. "Death To The West, but first I need to go to Cocktail night - 2-for-1 on Thursdays at the Union..."
    Yes, I bet you did, Malmesbury. They seem to seek you out, those types.
    In fairness these types aren't unknown. Even though I am a liberal I do get irritated by other liberals who post on Facebook lots of marginal local green initiatives and then post their business class flight details for their hols on the other side of the planet. At least if you are going to be a hypocrite keep it secret. Lack of awareness!
    These weren't liberals. People from countries where Death To The West is what you chant at the government organised demos.

    Reactionary would describe their social policies, generally.
    Yes I know. Just giving another example of lack of awareness.
    Oh, that happens.

    The most ferocious defense of Communism I recall was by an antique Oxford don. He was crying about the fall of the USSR etc. While sitting in his study, lined with nice editions. In a lovely house just up the road from the college which had supported him all his life. Which made much of it's money from renting property......
    It's not so much conscious hypocrisy as a real cognitive dissonance. A real inability to comprehend that the people you fervently support would make life very nasty for you if they won.
    A lack of realisation that the comfortable life you lead is down to the very structures you would destroy - and that you would miss that life when it was gone. Rather than glory in living 6 to an apartment For! The! Cause!

    He was utterly passionate about the beauty and nobility of The Communist Cause. I actually felt sorry for him.
    If he is no longer with us, is it reasonable to name him? I have one person in mind, but just wonder if it is the right one.
    No, I don't think I will. He must be dead - was very ancient. There was no nastiness in his espousal of the cause - and I was fairly harsh in front of his students, at that.
    Fair enough. The one I have in mind is indeed deceased. But let him - or them - rest in peace.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772
    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Given you're not there and don't really know what's happening, does it not give you any pause for thought to think that an army which kept going despite thousands of casualties a year fell to bits in the last 2 weeks. No 2nd thought that maybe something has happened on the ground to precepitate the change?
    Like all of us I'm going only on what I've read and heard in the media. I'm aware that's hardly the best information, but if we all kept our counsel in our ignorance then nothing would be said.

    Maybe that would be better, but I'm hardly the only culprit.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,394

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    1/3 Vice Adm Ben Key - who’s running the U.K. evacuation for #Kabul from PJHQ says security situation at Airport now “calm”. 3 RAF flights already left today with more planned. U.K. wants to fly out around 6-7 thousand - with more coming forward.

    https://twitter.com/bealejonathan/status/1427599108131508268?s=20
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Meanwhile Heineken's drivers are on strike and Heineken have stopped all deliveries to Cumbria for the next week. Or two. Who knows. Heineken certainly don't.

    Just in time for the last fortnight of August and the last Bank Holiday before Xmas. Brilliant. Just brilliant.

    So Daughter, like everyone else, is trying to get supplies from elsewhere and hoping that they too don't cancel orders at the last minute or simply refuse to deliver.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    maaarsh said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Given you're not there and don't really know what's happening, does it not give you any pause for thought to think that an army which kept going despite thousands of casualties a year fell to bits in the last 2 weeks. No 2nd thought that maybe something has happened on the ground to precepitate the change?
    Like all of us I'm going only on what I've read and heard in the media. I'm aware that's hardly the best information, but if we all kept our counsel in our ignorance then nothing would be said.

    Maybe that would be better, but I'm hardly the only culprit.
    I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss - I'm just suggesting that the rapid change in the situation, given the Afghan army has been sustaining significant casualties every year for over a decade without falling apart until now, suggests we need an explanation with something more than just they're not brave enough. Feels far more likely that they have been dramatically screwed by a prior ally.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited August 2021
    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Classic CNN....mostly peaceful protests again...

    CNN reporter dons burka to report on Taliban fighters in Kabul and says they 'seem friendly' despite chanting 'Death to America' and telling her to stand aside because she's a woman

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899213/Bari-Weiss-hammers-Ted-Cruz-criticizing-CNN-reporter-Kabul-said-Taliban-friendly.html

    Classic selective editing:
    'They're just chanting death to America, but they seem friendly at the same time,' she said. 'It's utterly bizarre.

    And it wasn't a burka.
    PJ O'Rourke recounted being present at a Hezbollah rally, in Lebanon in the 80s. A young chap, in between chanting "Death To America" was asking him about the pros and cons of which American university to study dentistry at.
    Good one - but one does wonder how many of these type of stories from professional humorists are true.
    I met a couple of people at university in the UK, who would have fit the profile. "Death To The West, but first I need to go to Cocktail night - 2-for-1 on Thursdays at the Union..."
    Yes, I bet you did, Malmesbury. They seem to seek you out, those types.
    In fairness these types aren't unknown. Even though I am a liberal I do get irritated by other liberals who post on Facebook lots of marginal local green initiatives and then post their business class flight details for their hols on the other side of the planet. At least if you are going to be a hypocrite keep it secret. Lack of awareness!
    Of course the rank hypocrite lefty liberal does exist. I give you at the extreme end Harvey Weinstein.

    But imo it's mainly a 'play the man' meme used by the right to attack progressive causes where the rational arguments against the cause itself are thin on the ground.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287
    Quincel said:

    Big development in the *real* story taking place at the moment. The Alpaca will not be executed - today.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-58241387

    Starmer wants it killed...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Contrarian, Honorius was an atrociously poor emperor, but proved very devious when it came to clinging to power (to the death of Stilicho).

    Slightly similar to Richard II, actually (with the Duke of... Gloucester, I think, paying the price in that instance).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Tonight, the A400M of the German Luftwaffe evacuated 7 people from Kabul.
    Yes, you read that correctly. SEVEN.
    Those 7 were at the airport and on the official embassy-list to be flown out.
    My heart breaks for those who helped our army for years and are now being left behind.

    https://twitter.com/JeannePlaumann/status/1427389030694629377?s=19

    Fifth time I think that that’s been posted on here. Interesting to ponder on why it caresses the PB G-spot so sweetly.
    Could only have been equalled/bettered if it was French
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Have you run out of Flint.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    He is putting America first only if he thinks that being seen as an unreliable ally is not going to harm America. That remains to be seen.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    edited August 2021

    I dont recall much credence veing given to aangus Reed which gave big leads ti the Tories, so one wonders why any attention is being paid to.newcomer Redfield Wilton?
    What success have they had ?

    I thought you knew that we are all biased against the Tories here, particular Boris especially the people who write the articles.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited August 2021
    You know how we keep being told how great the Swedes are and how horrible the Brits are?

    Swedish staff left the embassy as their Afghan colleagues worked. Then, they refused to answer calls from the Afghan staff and even blocked their official email accounts. Left the country.

    https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1427400455576080388?s=20

    And then there's the Dutch:

    From Dutch newspaper @NRC
    : When Afghan employees of the Dutch embassy in Kabul arrived at the office on Sunday, they were flabbergasted to find that the Dutch had all left without telling them anything. They just left.

    https://twitter.com/jahootsen/status/1427394519050473477?s=20

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    China already exploiting US weakness under Biden-Harris.

    'From what happened in Afghanistan, those in Taiwan should perceive that once a war breaks out in the Straits, the island’s defense will collapse in hours and US military won’t come to help. As a result, the DPP will quickly surrender.'
    https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1427267130467119104?s=20
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Cyclefree said:

    Meanwhile Heineken's drivers are on strike and Heineken have stopped all deliveries to Cumbria for the next week. Or two. Who knows. Heineken certainly don't.

    Just in time for the last fortnight of August and the last Bank Holiday before Xmas. Brilliant. Just brilliant.

    So Daughter, like everyone else, is trying to get supplies from elsewhere and hoping that they too don't cancel orders at the last minute or simply refuse to deliver.

    Looks like they wanted a 4% rise, despite earning substantial overtime in the last few months.
    https://www.cips.org/supply-management/news/2021/august/beer-supplies-under-threat-as-beer-draymen-set-for-strike-/

    Good luck to your daughter, what a horrible time to be in what’s always been a very difficult trade.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Have you run out of Flint.
    Think it was Penarth he ran out of..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Miss Cyclefree, an early advantage Rome enjoyed was being seeing as scrupulously honest and law-abiding.

    This was epitomised at the state level by them informing Pyrrhus that someone on his side was offering to top him, and identifying the threat so Pyrrhus could deal with him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    Morning Consult today.

    51% of US voters disapprove now of Biden's handling of Afghanistan
    https://twitter.com/MorningConsult/status/1427406818897285125?s=20

    'Just 25 percent of American voters think the withdrawal from Afghanistan is going well, & just 49 percent of voters continue to support the withdrawal, down from 69 percent in April'
    https://twitter.com/JerryDunleavy/status/1427418553683173383?s=20

    58% of Republicans now oppose the withdrawal, though 69% of Democrats still back it https://twitter.com/MorningConsult/status/1427359758978207772?s=20
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    The 20 wasted years of lives and treasure is shaming. No doubt about it. But that is not down to Biden.

    The most vivid image is the aircraft with people running in front of it and some clinging on, only to fall to their deaths. That will be remembered. But will non-partisans blame Biden for those deaths or the stupid idiots who clung on?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,248

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    I did say my American friends might be unrepresentative. They are all affluent educated types in Socal or nyc etc

    I don’t know many oklahomans. So you could easily be right

    And now I’m going to lie down in the Athenian sun
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    I did say my American friends might be unrepresentative. They are all affluent educated types in Socal or nyc etc

    I don’t know many oklahomans. So you could easily be right

    And now I’m going to lie down in the Athenian sun
    He is wrong, you are right.

    Latest polls show support has plunged for the withdrawal, now under 50% and most Republicans now oppose it.

    Even amongst Democrats support is down though they are the only group where a majority back the withdrawal still
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    He is putting America first only if he thinks that being seen as an unreliable ally is not going to harm America. That remains to be seen.
    There must be many governments right now, nominally Western allies, who are looking at the US, then back at China, then back at the US. And thinking, hmmmm.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,878

    Carnyx said:

    Sean_F said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Classic CNN....mostly peaceful protests again...

    CNN reporter dons burka to report on Taliban fighters in Kabul and says they 'seem friendly' despite chanting 'Death to America' and telling her to stand aside because she's a woman

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9899213/Bari-Weiss-hammers-Ted-Cruz-criticizing-CNN-reporter-Kabul-said-Taliban-friendly.html

    Classic selective editing:
    'They're just chanting death to America, but they seem friendly at the same time,' she said. 'It's utterly bizarre.

    And it wasn't a burka.
    PJ O'Rourke recounted being present at a Hezbollah rally, in Lebanon in the 80s. A young chap, in between chanting "Death To America" was asking him about the pros and cons of which American university to study dentistry at.
    Good one - but one does wonder how many of these type of stories from professional humorists are true.
    I met a couple of people at university in the UK, who would have fit the profile. "Death To The West, but first I need to go to Cocktail night - 2-for-1 on Thursdays at the Union..."
    Yes, I bet you did, Malmesbury. They seem to seek you out, those types.
    In fairness these types aren't unknown. Even though I am a liberal I do get irritated by other liberals who post on Facebook lots of marginal local green initiatives and then post their business class flight details for their hols on the other side of the planet. At least if you are going to be a hypocrite keep it secret. Lack of awareness!
    These weren't liberals. People from countries where Death To The West is what you chant at the government organised demos.

    Reactionary would describe their social policies, generally.
    Yes I know. Just giving another example of lack of awareness.
    Oh, that happens.

    The most ferocious defense of Communism I recall was by an antique Oxford don. He was crying about the fall of the USSR etc. While sitting in his study, lined with nice editions. In a lovely house just up the road from the college which had supported him all his life. Which made much of it's money from renting property......
    It's not so much conscious hypocrisy as a real cognitive dissonance. A real inability to comprehend that the people you fervently support would make life very nasty for you if they won.
    A lack of realisation that the comfortable life you lead is down to the very structures you would destroy - and that you would miss that life when it was gone. Rather than glory in living 6 to an apartment For! The! Cause!

    He was utterly passionate about the beauty and nobility of The Communist Cause. I actually felt sorry for him.
    If he is no longer with us, is it reasonable to name him? I have one person in mind, but just wonder if it is the right one.
    No, I don't think I will. He must be dead - was very ancient. There was no nastiness in his espousal of the cause - and I was fairly harsh in front of his students, at that.
    Hobsbawm the Marxist
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    edited August 2021
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Have you run out of Flint.
    Afghani flint is the best in the world. Supplies are currently disrupted....

    EDIT or maybe that was heroin.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    moonshine said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    He is putting America first only if he thinks that being seen as an unreliable ally is not going to harm America. That remains to be seen.
    There must be many governments right now, nominally Western allies, who are looking at the US, then back at China, then back at the US. And thinking, hmmmm.
    Plenty in the wider Middle East, that’s for sure.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    By way of comparison, suppose we and the US had pulled all our troops out of West Germany in 1965, and said "fight your own battles, if the Warsaw Pact attacks". Would history judge us well, or harshly, for it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021
    Sean_F said:

    By way of comparison, suppose we and the US had pulled all our troops out of West Germany in 1965, and said "fight your own battles, if the Warsaw Pact attacks". Would history judge us well, or harshly, for it?

    I cannot think of any US administration that has handled so cowardly and botched a retreat and given such succour to the enemies of the West as this one. Even in 1975 the fall of Saigon did not see as bad signs of chaos and it took almost 2 years for South Vietnam to fall after US forces withdrew not barely a few weeks like Afghanistan.

    In terms of foreign policy Biden-Harris is the weakest administration I can think of going right back to the creation of the Republic in 1776
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Sandpit said:

    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    dixiedean said:

    I presume these Afghan refugees will be dispersed to Basingstoke, Guildford and Chelmsford.
    In the interests of "levelling up".

    I think we all have a pretty good idea it will be Middlesbrough, Gateshead, Wolverhampton, Blackburn and places like that which will have them in cheap, poor quality, housing.
    More immigration in the places you have mentioned will inevitably make GBNews viewers even angrier. That is a bigger problem for Labour, even when it occurs on the Tories' watch.
    Yes, it's hard to see circumstances where Immigration could play for Labour. Which is a problem, it being firmly established now as a top 3 issue for voters.
    The immigration issue is quite specific, and now relates to people crossing the channel from France.

    The same word was previously used to refer to mass-migration of low-skilled workers from the EU undermining wages, but that was a separate issue which is mostly now resolved.

    Genuine asylum claims, such as from Hong Kong, and the Afghan translators, is a different issue again and commands relatively high support.
    To an extent yes. The concern can be specific and selective. But it can also be vague and general. It depends on the person with the concern. The balance between these sentiments in that large section of the population who have Immigration as a top issue would be interesting to know.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    HYUFD said:

    I cannot think of any US administration that has handled so cowardly and botched a retreat and given such succour to the enemies of the West as this one.

    1 month ago, Trump claimed full, unequivocal credit for the withdrawal in Afghanistan. "I started the [withdrawal] process. [Biden] couldn't stop the process." https://twitter.com/parkerbutler10/status/1427295338382118918/video/1
  • FossFoss Posts: 694
    moonshine said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    He is putting America first only if he thinks that being seen as an unreliable ally is not going to harm America. That remains to be seen.
    There must be many governments right now, nominally Western allies, who are looking at the US, then back at China, then back at the US. And thinking, hmmmm.
    Hmmmmmm... It's time to tear up the NPT?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    moonshine said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    He is putting America first only if he thinks that being seen as an unreliable ally is not going to harm America. That remains to be seen.
    There must be many governments right now, nominally Western allies, who are looking at the US, then back at China, then back at the US. And thinking, hmmmm.
    Faced with the challenge of Coronavirus, cornerstone Western governments are adopting Chinese Communist Party policies wholesale

    Strict lockdowns.
    Movement tracing.
    Restricted travel.
    Medical status-based freedoms.
    Arbitrary undemocratic policy-making.

    Areas trying to adopt 'Western' solutions to problems are excoriated by the press in these countries.

    How can we expect third party countries to follow a philosophy we have abandoned ourselves? All the ideas are coming from China. Where are our ideas? we have none.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    I did say my American friends might be unrepresentative. They are all affluent educated types in Socal or nyc etc

    I don’t know many oklahomans. So you could easily be right

    And now I’m going to lie down in the Athenian sun
    A lot of Biden's effectiveness in politics comes down to his "Mr Biden from Scranton goes to Washington" thing. I really wouldn't be surprised if withdrawing from the world unless it's in America's direct interests goes down pretty well in Scranton, PA.

    For much the same reason that the cut in International Aid went down well with voters in the UK. We just need to keep telling ourselves that this is all right. (And to be clear, this is about flawed humanity, not unique failings in the USA and UK.)

    And if it's what the voters want, it can't be wrong. Especially if it's the mass of voters, not just me... can it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    HYUFD said:

    China already exploiting US weakness under Biden-Harris.

    'From what happened in Afghanistan, those in Taiwan should perceive that once a war breaks out in the Straits, the island’s defense will collapse in hours and US military won’t come to help. As a result, the DPP will quickly surrender.'
    https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1427267130467119104?s=20

    Unlike you to repost Chinese propaganda.
    I doubt the Taiwanese are particularly impressed.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    I've noticed a political divide in mask wearing. The wanky coffee places in and around Liverpool Street/Shoreditch are very pro mask and seem to be trying to hold on to the social distancing theatre. The people are not wearing masks or distancing in any sense. Normal places just seem to not care now. There is definitely a self righteousness wrt mask wearing in parts of London.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    moonshine said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    He is putting America first only if he thinks that being seen as an unreliable ally is not going to harm America. That remains to be seen.
    There must be many governments right now, nominally Western allies, who are looking at the US, then back at China, then back at the US. And thinking, hmmmm.
    They're already openly gloating they can take Taiwan when they fancy now it's clear America has run out of courage.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    I cannot think of any US administration that has handled so cowardly and botched a retreat and given such succour to the enemies of the West as this one.

    1 month ago, Trump claimed full, unequivocal credit for the withdrawal in Afghanistan. "I started the [withdrawal] process. [Biden] couldn't stop the process." https://twitter.com/parkerbutler10/status/1427295338382118918/video/1
    Even Trump would not have retreated in as cowardly a fashion as Biden-Harris seem to have done (and I have said Romney would be far better than both).

    Indeed as Trump said correctly yesterday Biden even withdrew the military before all civilian allies of the US had been evacuated and left behind equipment for the Taliban to pick up
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    maaarsh said:

    moonshine said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    He is putting America first only if he thinks that being seen as an unreliable ally is not going to harm America. That remains to be seen.
    There must be many governments right now, nominally Western allies, who are looking at the US, then back at China, then back at the US. And thinking, hmmmm.
    They're already openly gloating they can take Taiwan when they fancy now it's clear America has run out of courage.
    The big difference being that Taiwan has a huge manufacturing industry, with many American companies involved.

    I’m sure there’s lots of American CEOs hitting up their contacts at State this week, wanting reassurances that the government will support Taiwan if required.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620

    Miss Cyclefree, an early advantage Rome enjoyed was being seeing as scrupulously honest and law-abiding.

    This was epitomised at the state level by them informing Pyrrhus that someone on his side was offering to top him, and identifying the threat so Pyrrhus could deal with him.

    I found the suggestion that Brutus actually turned on Caesar, when Caesar pissed on Brutus's loan sharking operations in the provinces... very Sopranos....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Text this morning from a former senior foreign policy maker in both Democratic and Republican administrations:

    “Biden speech in a nutshell. ‘I wanted to get out of Afghanistan very badly, and I got us out as badly as I could.
    https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1427607215591116805?s=20
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Sandpit said:

    maaarsh said:

    moonshine said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    He is putting America first only if he thinks that being seen as an unreliable ally is not going to harm America. That remains to be seen.
    There must be many governments right now, nominally Western allies, who are looking at the US, then back at China, then back at the US. And thinking, hmmmm.
    They're already openly gloating they can take Taiwan when they fancy now it's clear America has run out of courage.
    The big difference being that Taiwan has a huge manufacturing industry, with many American companies involved.

    I’m sure there’s lots of American CEOs hitting up their contacts at State this week, wanting reassurances that the government will support Taiwan if required.
    Also, I suspect the people of Taiwan might be a bit more willing to fight.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    China already exploiting US weakness under Biden-Harris.

    'From what happened in Afghanistan, those in Taiwan should perceive that once a war breaks out in the Straits, the island’s defense will collapse in hours and US military won’t come to help. As a result, the DPP will quickly surrender.'
    https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1427267130467119104?s=20

    Unlike you to repost Chinese propaganda.
    I doubt the Taiwanese are particularly impressed.
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    China already exploiting US weakness under Biden-Harris.

    'From what happened in Afghanistan, those in Taiwan should perceive that once a war breaks out in the Straits, the island’s defense will collapse in hours and US military won’t come to help. As a result, the DPP will quickly surrender.'
    https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1427267130467119104?s=20

    Unlike you to repost Chinese propaganda.
    I doubt the Taiwanese are particularly impressed.
    I suspect that someone is doing a heavy metal inventory, though.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    I cannot think of any US administration that has handled so cowardly and botched a retreat and given such succour to the enemies of the West as this one.

    1 month ago, Trump claimed full, unequivocal credit for the withdrawal in Afghanistan. "I started the [withdrawal] process. [Biden] couldn't stop the process." https://twitter.com/parkerbutler10/status/1427295338382118918/video/1
    Even Trump would not have retreated in as cowardly a fashion as Biden-Harris seem to have done (and I have said Romney would be far better than both).

    Indeed as Trump said correctly Biden even withdrew the military before all civilian allies of the US had been withdrawn and left behind equipment for the Taliban to pick up
    I don't think you can deduce that. Biden clearly didn't believe it was going to be such a disaster (see his recent press conference where he clearly got it so wrong). The idea that Trump would have done it better is for the birds. More likely he would have got it more wrong, although it is difficult to see how. Trump has really got lucky on this one. Do you seriously think he wouldn't have cocked it up. Just look at what he did to the Kurds.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    I am surprised Prof Peston hasn't been on the case....

    https://order-order.com/2021/08/17/fact-check-boris-sets-his-watch-12-minutes-fast-to-stop-being-late/

    I actually do something similar. Just 5 mins ahead. I find it useful particular in my car.

    My wife does that with her alarm clock, it’s about 10 minutes fast and she reckons it gives her extra time in the morning - as opposed to taking her a second to realise it’s the wrong time, and hitting snooze once more.

    The car clock adjusts itself from the RDS data stream, and I’m pretty much always looking at a computer or phone with ntp time. I make a point of keeping the (old-fashioned, mechanical) wristwatch adjusted to the phone time evey few days.

    For someone like the PM it’s perhaps not a bad idea, as his movements are all carefully choreographed and involve others. It would be rude to keep people waiting.
    I don’t have any difficulty being on time with the watch set correctly. If I set my watch wrongly, I’d just make an adjustment in my mind.

    Having a PM that cannot be trusted to arrive on time without trying to kid himself by setting his watch wrongly is not a good look.
    I don't mind other people being late - so long as it's just a few minutes - but I can't stand being late myself. This is more of a vice than a virtue, though, because the only way to avoid ever being late is to allow a big buffer in settling off, upshot being I'm absurdly early for most things.

    Re the 'setting the watch wrong' trick, that'll only work if you don't know it's wrong. Haven't followed this particular piece of "Boris" myth-making nonsense but I'm assuming that's the idea. That his wife does this without telling him like he's some adolescent son to be managed.
    Yes. I used to set my watch three minutes fast, but I found that I was continually adjusting for the inaccuracy, which made it pointless.

    I then went through a phase of stubbornly sticking to GMT during the summer, but I've reverted to simply matching railway time as closely as possible.
    No, none of these cute little time tricks make sense really. It just marches on at its one and only steady remorseless pace. Sorry Albert.

    I have one, I'm not immune. When the clocks go back on a Sat/Sun I "save it" until the middle of Monday morning. Create an hour from nothing then, live it again, like a sort of temporal QE.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    You know how we keep being told how great the Swedes are and how horrible the Brits are?

    Swedish staff left the embassy as their Afghan colleagues worked. Then, they refused to answer calls from the Afghan staff and even blocked their official email accounts. Left the country.

    https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1427400455576080388?s=20

    And then there's the Dutch:

    From Dutch newspaper @NRC
    : When Afghan employees of the Dutch embassy in Kabul arrived at the office on Sunday, they were flabbergasted to find that the Dutch had all left without telling them anything. They just left.

    https://twitter.com/jahootsen/status/1427394519050473477?s=20

    But didn't you know? The English are EVIL and every other country, whatever they've done wrong in the past, have learnt from their lessons and do nothing wrong. Germany in particular has learnt from its past, and has no racial issues at all. Oh no.

    Even North Korea is a paragon of openness and culture compared to England. ;)
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    You know how we keep being told how great the Swedes are and how horrible the Brits are?

    Swedish staff left the embassy as their Afghan colleagues worked. Then, they refused to answer calls from the Afghan staff and even blocked their official email accounts. Left the country.

    https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1427400455576080388?s=20

    And then there's the Dutch:

    From Dutch newspaper @NRC
    : When Afghan employees of the Dutch embassy in Kabul arrived at the office on Sunday, they were flabbergasted to find that the Dutch had all left without telling them anything. They just left.

    https://twitter.com/jahootsen/status/1427394519050473477?s=20

    But didn't you know? The English are EVIL and every other country, whatever they've done wrong in the past, have learnt from their lessons and do nothing wrong. Germany in particular has learnt from its past, and has no racial issues at all. Oh no.

    Even North Korea is a paragon of openness and culture compared to England. ;)
    Germany has taken dealing with it's past to such a refined level that it feels like they've toppled over in to feeling proud of their response rather than ashamed of why it was needed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620

    You know how we keep being told how great the Swedes are and how horrible the Brits are?

    Swedish staff left the embassy as their Afghan colleagues worked. Then, they refused to answer calls from the Afghan staff and even blocked their official email accounts. Left the country.

    https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1427400455576080388?s=20

    And then there's the Dutch:

    From Dutch newspaper @NRC
    : When Afghan employees of the Dutch embassy in Kabul arrived at the office on Sunday, they were flabbergasted to find that the Dutch had all left without telling them anything. They just left.

    https://twitter.com/jahootsen/status/1427394519050473477?s=20

    But didn't you know? The English are EVIL and every other country, whatever they've done wrong in the past, have learnt from their lessons and do nothing wrong. Germany in particular has learnt from its past, and has no racial issues at all. Oh no.

    Even North Korea is a paragon of openness and culture compared to England. ;)
    No, no, no. That's all wrong.

    Being abandoned by a properly cultured, decent country is far better than being evacuated by a bunch of evil, neon-fascist, imperialists.... like the English.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    I am surprised Prof Peston hasn't been on the case....

    https://order-order.com/2021/08/17/fact-check-boris-sets-his-watch-12-minutes-fast-to-stop-being-late/

    I actually do something similar. Just 5 mins ahead. I find it useful particular in my car.

    My wife does that with her alarm clock, it’s about 10 minutes fast and she reckons it gives her extra time in the morning - as opposed to taking her a second to realise it’s the wrong time, and hitting snooze once more.

    The car clock adjusts itself from the RDS data stream, and I’m pretty much always looking at a computer or phone with ntp time. I make a point of keeping the (old-fashioned, mechanical) wristwatch adjusted to the phone time evey few days.

    For someone like the PM it’s perhaps not a bad idea, as his movements are all carefully choreographed and involve others. It would be rude to keep people waiting.
    I don’t have any difficulty being on time with the watch set correctly. If I set my watch wrongly, I’d just make an adjustment in my mind.

    Having a PM that cannot be trusted to arrive on time without trying to kid himself by setting his watch wrongly is not a good look.
    I don't mind other people being late - so long as it's just a few minutes - but I can't stand being late myself. This is more of a vice than a virtue, though, because the only way to avoid ever being late is to allow a big buffer in settling off, upshot being I'm absurdly early for most things.

    Re the 'setting the watch wrong' trick, that'll only work if you don't know it's wrong. Haven't followed this particular piece of "Boris" myth-making nonsense but I'm assuming that's the idea. That his wife does this without telling him like he's some adolescent son to be managed.
    Yes. I used to set my watch three minutes fast, but I found that I was continually adjusting for the inaccuracy, which made it pointless.

    I then went through a phase of stubbornly sticking to GMT during the summer, but I've reverted to simply matching railway time as closely as possible.
    No, none of these cute little time tricks make sense really. It just marches on at its one and only steady remorseless pace. Sorry Albert.

    I have one, I'm not immune. When the clocks go back on a Sat/Sun I "save it" until the middle of Monday morning. Create an hour from nothing then, live it again, like a sort of temporal QE.
    My clock is the animals. They tell me when they need to eat, or go for a walk. Everything else is just fit in around that ... No need to adjust for Summer Time.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    It looks like New Zealand could have the same problem as Australia. They’re going into a national lockdown.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    I am surprised Prof Peston hasn't been on the case....

    https://order-order.com/2021/08/17/fact-check-boris-sets-his-watch-12-minutes-fast-to-stop-being-late/

    I actually do something similar. Just 5 mins ahead. I find it useful particular in my car.

    My wife does that with her alarm clock, it’s about 10 minutes fast and she reckons it gives her extra time in the morning - as opposed to taking her a second to realise it’s the wrong time, and hitting snooze once more.

    The car clock adjusts itself from the RDS data stream, and I’m pretty much always looking at a computer or phone with ntp time. I make a point of keeping the (old-fashioned, mechanical) wristwatch adjusted to the phone time evey few days.

    For someone like the PM it’s perhaps not a bad idea, as his movements are all carefully choreographed and involve others. It would be rude to keep people waiting.
    I don’t have any difficulty being on time with the watch set correctly. If I set my watch wrongly, I’d just make an adjustment in my mind.

    Having a PM that cannot be trusted to arrive on time without trying to kid himself by setting his watch wrongly is not a good look.
    I don't mind other people being late - so long as it's just a few minutes - but I can't stand being late myself. This is more of a vice than a virtue, though, because the only way to avoid ever being late is to allow a big buffer in settling off, upshot being I'm absurdly early for most things.

    Re the 'setting the watch wrong' trick, that'll only work if you don't know it's wrong. Haven't followed this particular piece of "Boris" myth-making nonsense but I'm assuming that's the idea. That his wife does this without telling him like he's some adolescent son to be managed.
    Yes. I used to set my watch three minutes fast, but I found that I was continually adjusting for the inaccuracy, which made it pointless.

    I then went through a phase of stubbornly sticking to GMT during the summer, but I've reverted to simply matching railway time as closely as possible.
    No, none of these cute little time tricks make sense really. It just marches on at its one and only steady remorseless pace. Sorry Albert.

    I have one, I'm not immune. When the clocks go back on a Sat/Sun I "save it" until the middle of Monday morning. Create an hour from nothing then, live it again, like a sort of temporal QE.
    I like the fact it all happens automatically now. Pretty much. Down to a couple of items in the house that don't get their time via the internet...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    I cannot think of any US administration that has handled so cowardly and botched a retreat and given such succour to the enemies of the West as this one.

    1 month ago, Trump claimed full, unequivocal credit for the withdrawal in Afghanistan. "I started the [withdrawal] process. [Biden] couldn't stop the process." https://twitter.com/parkerbutler10/status/1427295338382118918/video/1
    Even Trump would not have retreated in as cowardly a fashion as Biden-Harris seem to have done (and I have said Romney would be far better than both).

    Indeed as Trump said correctly Biden even withdrew the military before all civilian allies of the US had been withdrawn and left behind equipment for the Taliban to pick up
    I don't think you can deduce that. Biden clearly didn't believe it was going to be such a disaster (see his recent press conference where he clearly got it so wrong). The idea that Trump would have done it better is for the birds. More likely he would have got it more wrong, although it is difficult to see how. Trump has really got lucky on this one. Do you seriously think he wouldn't have cocked it up. Just look at what he did to the Kurds.
    The Kurds are still alive and kicking in Syria and Iraq, IS have been largely eliminated from both.

    Yes it is speculation and partly luck on Trump's part but Biden has only himself to blame by allowing the Taliban and potentially terrorists back so quickly across Afghanistan and for leaving civilians stranded at Kabul airport in a humanitarian disaster
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Is Raab going to be moved?

    His performance in the past few days has been very, very poor.

    Should he have been in Kabul clearing the runway?

    I do wonder what people think a British Foreign Secretary can do in this situation
    He could have liaised with the UK Ambassador at the airport so they didn't swap out experienced consular staff for 18 yo squaddies handling visa applications for starters. Then he might have discussed matters with other G7 Foreign Secretaries to coordinate a more coherent response than we've had so far.....and I'm sure if he'd put his mind to it there are others (India, Pakistan, the Gulf States, for starters) who could have been useful interlocutors - but we're getting "deer in headlights" like we did when Johnson was in hospital.
    The clown was probably looking up an atlas to find out where Afghanistan was.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    It looks like New Zealand could have the same problem as Australia. They’re going into a national lockdown.

    When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    It looks like New Zealand could have the same problem as Australia. They’re going into a national lockdown.

    And we know with Delta the lockdown needs to be a lock people in their homes level or it won't work. It's shocking that advanced nation's like Australia and NZ are so far behind in their vaccination programmes. The next 6-12 months in those countries will look a lot like our March 2020 - April 2021.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Sean_F said:

    By way of comparison, suppose we and the US had pulled all our troops out of West Germany in 1965, and said "fight your own battles, if the Warsaw Pact attacks". Would history judge us well, or harshly, for it?

    Not exactly comparable situations, though
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    isam said:

    If the best polls at this stage of Ed Milibands time as LotO had become reality, he’d have been PM too

    But he had no pandemic to hold him back and hide him from public view. In reality , I suspect that midterm in this Parliament will begin in late 2022 - ie a year or so into the return to normal politics.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    I cannot think of any US administration that has handled so cowardly and botched a retreat and given such succour to the enemies of the West as this one.

    1 month ago, Trump claimed full, unequivocal credit for the withdrawal in Afghanistan. "I started the [withdrawal] process. [Biden] couldn't stop the process." https://twitter.com/parkerbutler10/status/1427295338382118918/video/1
    Even Trump would not have retreated in as cowardly a fashion as Biden-Harris seem to have done (and I have said Romney would be far better than both).

    Indeed as Trump said correctly Biden even withdrew the military before all civilian allies of the US had been withdrawn and left behind equipment for the Taliban to pick up
    I don't think you can deduce that. Biden clearly didn't believe it was going to be such a disaster (see his recent press conference where he clearly got it so wrong). The idea that Trump would have done it better is for the birds. More likely he would have got it more wrong, although it is difficult to see how. Trump has really got lucky on this one. Do you seriously think he wouldn't have cocked it up. Just look at what he did to the Kurds.
    The Kurds are still alive and kicking in Syria and Iraq, IS have been largely eliminated from both.

    Yes it is speculation and partly luck on Trump's part but Biden has only himself to blame by allowing the Taliban and potentially terrorists back so quickly across Afghanistan and for leaving civilians stranded at Kabul airport in a humanitarian disaster
    I'm not disagreeing with you re Biden. In fact I agree strongly (see my post on the previous thread). Just commenting on the Trump speculation.

    Re the Kurds - what Trump did was a disgrace. Both presidents have let allies down badly.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Interesting to see a couple of airbourne tankers around Kabul. At a guess, they’re taking off with minimum fuel for a faster climb and/or more cargo, then taking on mission fuel airborne when clear of danger. Not something ever seen in civvy street operations!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited August 2021
    TimT said:

    Sean_F said:

    By way of comparison, suppose we and the US had pulled all our troops out of West Germany in 1965, and said "fight your own battles, if the Warsaw Pact attacks". Would history judge us well, or harshly, for it?

    Not exactly comparable situations, though
    We're in the middle of a crisis, let no half-assed analogy go undeployed.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    You know how we keep being told how great the Swedes are and how horrible the Brits are?

    Swedish staff left the embassy as their Afghan colleagues worked. Then, they refused to answer calls from the Afghan staff and even blocked their official email accounts. Left the country.

    https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1427400455576080388?s=20

    And then there's the Dutch:

    From Dutch newspaper @NRC
    : When Afghan employees of the Dutch embassy in Kabul arrived at the office on Sunday, they were flabbergasted to find that the Dutch had all left without telling them anything. They just left.

    https://twitter.com/jahootsen/status/1427394519050473477?s=20

    But didn't you know? The English are EVIL and every other country, whatever they've done wrong in the past, have learnt from their lessons and do nothing wrong. Germany in particular has learnt from its past, and has no racial issues at all. Oh no.

    Even North Korea is a paragon of openness and culture compared to England. ;)
    No, no, no. That's all wrong.

    Being abandoned by a properly cultured, decent country is far better than being evacuated by a bunch of evil, neon-fascist, imperialists.... like the English.
    I am trying to imagine neon-fascists. The swastika in fluorescent lime green and orange?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Malmesbury, in a recent book I read (https://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.com/2021/07/review-concise-history-of-republican.html) had a fascinating section on how Crassus, and some others, become so wealthy by plundering (killing and confiscating property) the wealthiest senators during Sulla's dictatorship.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    Agree, I thought he came across very well last night and if still a basket case after 20 years and trillions spent , it was a total waste spending any more time on it for sure. Neither US or UK should be in countries with armies trying to prop up puppet governments.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    The UK health regulator has approved the Moderna coronavirus vaccine for 12 to 17-year-olds.

    The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) said it is now up to the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) to advise the government on whether children in this age group should be given the jab.
    Dr June Raine, MHRA chief executive, said: "I am pleased to confirm that that the COVID-19 vaccine made by Moderna has now been authorised in 12 to 17-year-olds. The vaccine is safe and effective in this age group.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk-regulator-approves-moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-for-12-to-17-year-olds-12383760
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Starmer has no different voice over Afghanistan.

    Just aimless handwringing. His forte.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    BritishVolt which looked very much like an investor scamming exercise has taken another step towards legitimacy by taking a large investment from Glencore in return for supply guarantees. I know there's a lot of scepticism over whether they will actually ever deliver a product but I am definitely becoming more convinced that they will.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Sandpit said:

    Interesting to see a couple of airbourne tankers around Kabul. At a guess, they’re taking off with minimum fuel for a faster climb and/or more cargo, then taking on mission fuel airborne when clear of danger. Not something ever seen in civvy street operations!

    Kabul airport is also probably out of fuel - and given the current circumstance it's probably better to get your fuel from known and trusted sources (i.e. what you arrived with and what you can get from the airbourne tankers after take off).

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited August 2021

    The UK health regulator has approved the Moderna coronavirus vaccine for 12 to 17-year-olds.

    The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) said it is now up to the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) to advise the government on whether children in this age group should be given the jab.
    Dr June Raine, MHRA chief executive, said: "I am pleased to confirm that that the COVID-19 vaccine made by Moderna has now been authorised in 12 to 17-year-olds. The vaccine is safe and effective in this age group.


    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk-regulator-approves-moderna-coronavirus-vaccine-for-12-to-17-year-olds-12383760

    Does it matter ?

    The JCVI knows thinks it knows best and goes way beyond rollout logistics/numbers - going over the supposed MHRA ground on safety and efficacy (again) when considering their (non) decision.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    TimT said:

    You know how we keep being told how great the Swedes are and how horrible the Brits are?

    Swedish staff left the embassy as their Afghan colleagues worked. Then, they refused to answer calls from the Afghan staff and even blocked their official email accounts. Left the country.

    https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1427400455576080388?s=20

    And then there's the Dutch:

    From Dutch newspaper @NRC
    : When Afghan employees of the Dutch embassy in Kabul arrived at the office on Sunday, they were flabbergasted to find that the Dutch had all left without telling them anything. They just left.

    https://twitter.com/jahootsen/status/1427394519050473477?s=20

    But didn't you know? The English are EVIL and every other country, whatever they've done wrong in the past, have learnt from their lessons and do nothing wrong. Germany in particular has learnt from its past, and has no racial issues at all. Oh no.

    Even North Korea is a paragon of openness and culture compared to England. ;)
    No, no, no. That's all wrong.

    Being abandoned by a properly cultured, decent country is far better than being evacuated by a bunch of evil, neon-fascist, imperialists.... like the English.
    I am trying to imagine neon-fascists. The swastika in fluorescent lime green and orange?
    Fighting in a very noble cause.....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620

    Mr. Malmesbury, in a recent book I read (https://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.com/2021/07/review-concise-history-of-republican.html) had a fascinating section on how Crassus, and some others, become so wealthy by plundering (killing and confiscating property) the wealthiest senators during Sulla's dictatorship.

    Indeed. I can't remember when it occurred to me that Pompey "The Squint" and Pompey "The Killer Kid", Gaius "Little Boots" etc were actually Mob names.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    malcolmg said:

    Leon said:

    This is pure anecdata but all my American friends who have expressed an opinion - and they are 100% anti-Trump, generally liberal - say they are ‘ashamed’ by the Afghan situation. That’s their word

    Perhaps more interestingly, they are starting the conversation. eg ‘Are you watching the news from Afghanistan?’

    This must hurt Biden? But my friends might be unrepresentative

    Well, the situation is shaming. Western powers are leaving people in the lurch. Even if it's the least bad available option, it's shaming.
    I'm kinda inclined to agree with Biden on this one and think that the greatest shame is that Afghans, with some exceptions, wouldn't fight for their own freedom from the Taliban.

    This is not like the situation in Hong Kong, say, where they face the overwhelming might of the Chinese state. The Taliban have some outside assistance, they have unity of purpose, but they shouldn't have proven to be an irresistible foe for a country enjoying the invigorating impetus that generally comes with the achievement of freedom.

    I think abandoning the Kurds in Syria to Turkey and Assad was far more shameful. I find it hard not to think that Biden is only doing what Obama should have done twelve years ago.
    Tend to agree.

    From the short snip I have seen of Biden justifying his position, he is coming across very hard-headed and unapologetic. I suspect his exasperation with Afghanistan and the Afghans (however wrong-headed) is shared by most Americans. He is putting America first.

    I think Leon is wrong. This decision will do Biden no harm at all, and probably helps his chances of re-election.
    Agree, I thought he came across very well last night and if still a basket case after 20 years and trillions spent , it was a total waste spending any more time on it for sure. Neither US or UK should be in countries with armies trying to prop up puppet governments.
    I can think of one government I wish the UK would stop propping up with subsidy funding levels.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited August 2021

    Starmer has no different voice over Afghanistan.

    Just aimless handwringing. His forte.

    Ironically it is Ed Davey who is being most hawkish on this compared to Boris and Starmer in opposing the withdrawal and its handling.

    That is a complete about turn from the Charles Kennedy years when he was the dove compared to Blair and IDS
    https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1426198801040224259?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    TimT said:

    You know how we keep being told how great the Swedes are and how horrible the Brits are?

    Swedish staff left the embassy as their Afghan colleagues worked. Then, they refused to answer calls from the Afghan staff and even blocked their official email accounts. Left the country.

    https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1427400455576080388?s=20

    And then there's the Dutch:

    From Dutch newspaper @NRC
    : When Afghan employees of the Dutch embassy in Kabul arrived at the office on Sunday, they were flabbergasted to find that the Dutch had all left without telling them anything. They just left.

    https://twitter.com/jahootsen/status/1427394519050473477?s=20

    But didn't you know? The English are EVIL and every other country, whatever they've done wrong in the past, have learnt from their lessons and do nothing wrong. Germany in particular has learnt from its past, and has no racial issues at all. Oh no.

    Even North Korea is a paragon of openness and culture compared to England. ;)
    No, no, no. That's all wrong.

    Being abandoned by a properly cultured, decent country is far better than being evacuated by a bunch of evil, neon-fascist, imperialists.... like the English.
    I am trying to imagine neon-fascists. The swastika in fluorescent lime green and orange?
    Captain K from Jo-Jo Rabbit actually survived the war and was at the ground floor of the Disco revolution.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    Sean_F said:

    By way of comparison, suppose we and the US had pulled all our troops out of West Germany in 1965, and said "fight your own battles, if the Warsaw Pact attacks". Would history judge us well, or harshly, for it?

    By way of comparison, did the US abandon Korea after they pulled out of Vietnam ?

    Neither set of past events are particularly good guides to the present.
This discussion has been closed.