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Starmer gets to within 2 percent in YouGov’s “Best PM” tracker – politicalbetting.com

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  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,503



    An anecdote from Flint, a little further east along the coast. On my coastal walk, I stopped off to look at the ruined castle. I was just about to start off when a man approached me. He asked me if I was doing a charity walk; when I said I was, he said he had seen out motorhome in the car park. He had been about to break into it, but had then seen the charity banner in a window and decided against it!

    A few days later I met someone on the Wirral who said that a lot of problem families in the area get 'dumped' on Flint and the other north Wales towns. Goodness knows how English councils manage to send people to Wales (although as the walk was in 2002, it might have occurred before devolution).

    On a later walk in the area years later, we passed a group of men and women - perhaps in their early twenties - on some scrubland who were drinking lager and swearing loudly at each other, despite it being only one in the afternoon. A childrens play park was about fifty metres away ...

    I know coastal towns have problems, but this felt much grittier than most.

    The first part is a sweet story, though.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    dixiedean said:

    Even a combined estate agent, lounge and wine bar.

    You'd have to be careful not to order the wrong kind of château.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    .

    Former President Trump condemned his successor's handling of the crisis in Afghanistan on Friday, as the Taliban continued their lightning advance and U.S. personnel prepared to destroy documents and evacuate the embassy in Kabul.

    'Tragic mess in Afghanistan, a completely open and broken Border, Crime at record levels, oil prices through the roof, inflation rising, and taken advantage of by the entire world—DO YOU MISS ME YET?' he said in a short emailed statement.

    Mail

    No.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    And there is also a huge cost to Mr Johnson if he does that with COP26 coming up.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    And there is also a huge cost to Mr Johnson if he does that with COP26 coming up.
    I hope Boris affirms the licence and stands up for Scottish jobs

    Indeed, he has already made the point HMG could be sued by the Company as the licence has already been granted
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928

    kle4 said:

    Returning briefly to an earlier discussion, topping made a good point about themes of fantasy often being done better in non fantasy, and I often think of sci fi that way - is there a reason the story is sci fi? Usually yes, questions that can only be explored that way.

    With fantasy I'm more forgiving as I like the creativity to be any genre, then add magic if you want, or anything else. Hence why if it is 'traditional' tolkienesque it needs to be very well written.

    Impossible to recommend the best, too varied and it depends on style and your mood, but in the last year The Grace of Kings by Ken Liu was a great Chinese inspired tale, and The City by Stella Gemmel I found unconventional but compelling.

    I should perhaps not admit this, but one of my favourite books is "The Time Travellers Wife'. Which is basically fantasy chick-lit. I don't know why I like it so much, but it's an easy, pleasant read, with a couple of traumatic moments that still get to me, despite familiarity.

    My absolute favourite book is a scifi one, which is also kind-of fantasy: Intervention, by Julian May.
    Admitting to liking lowbrow fiction takes a certain sang froid, since people are SO snobbish about books (and music, not so much about art). I love Richelle Mead's Succubus fantasy series - hilarious, sexy and clever plot (if you like Penny in the Big Bang Theory you'll like this) - but I'd never have admitted it when I was an MP.
    I love the Richard Hannay novels by John Buchan.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    dixiedean said:

    Even a combined estate agent, lounge and wine bar.

    You'd have to be careful not to order the wrong kind of château.
    Indeed,
    Instead of waking up cuddling a total stranger or a half eaten kebab, or both, you could have the keys to a 400k property.
  • rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Returning briefly to an earlier discussion, topping made a good point about themes of fantasy often being done better in non fantasy, and I often think of sci fi that way - is there a reason the story is sci fi? Usually yes, questions that can only be explored that way.

    With fantasy I'm more forgiving as I like the creativity to be any genre, then add magic if you want, or anything else. Hence why if it is 'traditional' tolkienesque it needs to be very well written.

    Impossible to recommend the best, too varied and it depends on style and your mood, but in the last year The Grace of Kings by Ken Liu was a great Chinese inspired tale, and The City by Stella Gemmel I found unconventional but compelling.

    I should perhaps not admit this, but one of my favourite books is "The Time Travellers Wife'. Which is basically fantasy chick-lit. I don't know why I like it so much, but it's an easy, pleasant read, with a couple of traumatic moments that still get to me, despite familiarity.

    My absolute favourite book is a scifi one, which is also kind-of fantasy: Intervention, by Julian May.
    Admitting to liking lowbrow fiction takes a certain sang froid, since people are SO snobbish about books (and music, not so much about art). I love Richelle Mead's Succubus fantasy series - hilarious, sexy and clever plot (if you like Penny in the Big Bang Theory you'll like this) - but I'd never have admitted it when I was an MP.
    I love the Richard Hannay novels by John Buchan.
    Dick Francis knew how to keep the pages turning (or was it his wife?).
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    And there is also a huge cost to Mr Johnson if he does that with COP26 coming up.
    What cost ?

    The oil is still needed and will be for the time being. Most people realise that even if a few eco crackpots think oil Just equals petrol
  • Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
  • pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813

    Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020

    A gunman who killed his mother and four passersby, including a three-year-old girl, had his firearms licence revoked in December, but police reinstated it last month after he attended an anger management course.

    Police will face an investigation over their dealings with Jake Davison, 22, who expressed sympathy for the “incel” movement and a keen interest in mass shootings. One resident from Plymouth, where the killing spree took place, said Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-police-reinstated-gunmans-firearms-licence-last-month

    This is just the kind of incident that could lead to a further tightening of firearms legislation, as happened post-Dunblane.
  • 2021 - 2022 - Premiership season has just kicked off
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
    But if they don’t decimate it they will annoy many of their own supporters and green activists, lobbyists, NGOs and charities as well as getting lots of angry comments on Twitter.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    pigeon said:

    Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020

    A gunman who killed his mother and four passersby, including a three-year-old girl, had his firearms licence revoked in December, but police reinstated it last month after he attended an anger management course.

    Police will face an investigation over their dealings with Jake Davison, 22, who expressed sympathy for the “incel” movement and a keen interest in mass shootings. One resident from Plymouth, where the killing spree took place, said Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-police-reinstated-gunmans-firearms-licence-last-month

    This is just the kind of incident that could lead to a further tightening of firearms legislation, as happened post-Dunblane.
    Oh so he did kill some randoms. The terrorism label is perhaps more appropriate in that case.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    tlg86 said:

    pigeon said:

    Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020

    A gunman who killed his mother and four passersby, including a three-year-old girl, had his firearms licence revoked in December, but police reinstated it last month after he attended an anger management course.

    Police will face an investigation over their dealings with Jake Davison, 22, who expressed sympathy for the “incel” movement and a keen interest in mass shootings. One resident from Plymouth, where the killing spree took place, said Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-police-reinstated-gunmans-firearms-licence-last-month

    This is just the kind of incident that could lead to a further tightening of firearms legislation, as happened post-Dunblane.
    Oh so he did kill some randoms. The terrorism label is perhaps more appropriate in that case.
    "Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues."

    This is the real issue. Underfunded mental health services.

    Starmer needs to attack on this one.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    2021 - 2022 - Premiership season has just kicked off

    Brentford. In the top flight. First time in 70+ years apparently.
  • This is a terribly sad story

    A Cardiff University pharmacy student died within hours of being told she had failed a crucial examination though it was later updated by the University as a pass

    However, the 21 year old never saw the update and was found on rocks below the Britannia Bridge on the 8th July last year
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    pigeon said:

    Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020

    A gunman who killed his mother and four passersby, including a three-year-old girl, had his firearms licence revoked in December, but police reinstated it last month after he attended an anger management course.

    Police will face an investigation over their dealings with Jake Davison, 22, who expressed sympathy for the “incel” movement and a keen interest in mass shootings. One resident from Plymouth, where the killing spree took place, said Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-police-reinstated-gunmans-firearms-licence-last-month

    This is just the kind of incident that could lead to a further tightening of firearms legislation, as happened post-Dunblane.
    Oh so he did kill some randoms. The terrorism label is perhaps more appropriate in that case.
    "Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues."

    This is the real issue. Underfunded mental health services.

    Starmer needs to attack on this one.
    I think he’d have more success going on the gun licence angle. Might look a bit insensitive to imply that people with mental health problems might go and kill a lot of people.
  • Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
    But if they don’t decimate it they will annoy many of their own supporters and green activists, lobbyists, NGOs and charities as well as getting lots of angry comments on Twitter.
    And that is why she is trying to hide behind Boris
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    stodge said:

    kle4 said:


    Theres plenty of crap to spread around. Undoubtedly we and the USA have plenty. But theres no real getting away from the length of time and local leaders and/or people not wanting to build a functioning state if it remains do weak. Is that what powerful interests wanted, for fear of a powerful state.

    There are plenty of countries like that. Paper leviathan I saw them called.

    I get the sense the "Right" are claiming this is a failure of the "Left" and trying to make some political capital.

    To be fair, we did install Karzai in Kabul in 2001but instead of concentrating on Afghan political, military and economic reconstruction, American and western interests moved to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

    Had overthrowing Saddam not been on the agenda, I suspect we'd have seen a deeper commitment to Afghanistan which might have left us in a very different position.

    Not for the first time, the Americans left the job unfinished ad the consequences of that are coming back to haunt them now.
    The point that going into Iraq distracted from the need to focus on Afghanistan, as well as compounding our error by generating yet more regional resistance, was well made on the radio this morning by, I believe, a Tory MP. If only they had been more prescient at the time.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
    But if they don’t decimate it they will annoy many of their own supporters and green activists, lobbyists, NGOs and charities as well as getting lots of angry comments on Twitter.
    And that is why she is trying to hide behind Boris
    Yup, but I’m sure those fanatics will not accept ‘Boris made me do it’. I suspect she’s about to run out of luck on this one.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    pigeon said:

    Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020

    A gunman who killed his mother and four passersby, including a three-year-old girl, had his firearms licence revoked in December, but police reinstated it last month after he attended an anger management course.

    Police will face an investigation over their dealings with Jake Davison, 22, who expressed sympathy for the “incel” movement and a keen interest in mass shootings. One resident from Plymouth, where the killing spree took place, said Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-police-reinstated-gunmans-firearms-licence-last-month

    This is just the kind of incident that could lead to a further tightening of firearms legislation, as happened post-Dunblane.
    Few people would object given it's so niche anyway.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
    But if they don’t decimate it they will annoy many of their own supporters and green activists, lobbyists, NGOs and charities as well as getting lots of angry comments on Twitter.
    What Nicola Sturgeon has done, by calling fresh investment in oil into doubt, is to trade two short-term gains (buttering the Greens and blaming something else on the Tories) for one longer-term headache (opening another front against independence.)

    The Scottish Government now not only needs to answer questions about the public sector deficit, the national debt, the currency and balancing relations between the rest of the UK and wider Europe. It will also have to address the suspicion that sovereignty will mean killing the oil and petrochemical industries stone dead to burnish the nation's green credentials, thus liquidating all the jobs and all the tax revenues (and crippling the entire city of Aberdeen into the bargain, in a grim echo of what Margaret Thatcher's policies on coal did to the mining communities.) A strategic misstep.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Even under the most stringent plans to move from fossil fuels they will be used for many decades so not approving Cambo is self-destructive posturing. An effective leader would approve then slaughter the opposition in debate. BJ might get an earful at home?
  • Brentford one up v Arsenal
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    It's great to see that the gimps who in 2014 were assuring Scotland that North Sea oil was over have now had a change of heart.

    Whatevs, 'It’s Scotland Oil' to coin a phrase.

    https://twitter.com/ScotTories/status/1426097799494578178?s=20



  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    tlg86 said:

    pigeon said:

    Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020

    A gunman who killed his mother and four passersby, including a three-year-old girl, had his firearms licence revoked in December, but police reinstated it last month after he attended an anger management course.

    Police will face an investigation over their dealings with Jake Davison, 22, who expressed sympathy for the “incel” movement and a keen interest in mass shootings. One resident from Plymouth, where the killing spree took place, said Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-police-reinstated-gunmans-firearms-licence-last-month

    This is just the kind of incident that could lead to a further tightening of firearms legislation, as happened post-Dunblane.
    Oh so he did kill some randoms. The terrorism label is perhaps more appropriate in that case.
    Reading the reports, his first victim was his mother; the remaining four all appear to have been strangers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The little girl and her dad were murdered because they were walking past his mother's house when he emerged after killing her.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    pigeon said:

    tlg86 said:

    pigeon said:

    Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020

    A gunman who killed his mother and four passersby, including a three-year-old girl, had his firearms licence revoked in December, but police reinstated it last month after he attended an anger management course.

    Police will face an investigation over their dealings with Jake Davison, 22, who expressed sympathy for the “incel” movement and a keen interest in mass shootings. One resident from Plymouth, where the killing spree took place, said Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-police-reinstated-gunmans-firearms-licence-last-month

    This is just the kind of incident that could lead to a further tightening of firearms legislation, as happened post-Dunblane.
    Oh so he did kill some randoms. The terrorism label is perhaps more appropriate in that case.
    Reading the reports, his first victim was his mother; the remaining four all appear to have been strangers who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The little girl and her dad were murdered because they were walking past his mother's house when he emerged after killing her.
    Utterly horrific and so sad.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    tlg86 said:

    pigeon said:

    Blimey

    It is alleged the Plymouth shooter has his shotgun licence approved again last month, after it had been revoked in 2020

    A gunman who killed his mother and four passersby, including a three-year-old girl, had his firearms licence revoked in December, but police reinstated it last month after he attended an anger management course.

    Police will face an investigation over their dealings with Jake Davison, 22, who expressed sympathy for the “incel” movement and a keen interest in mass shootings. One resident from Plymouth, where the killing spree took place, said Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues.


    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-police-reinstated-gunmans-firearms-licence-last-month

    This is just the kind of incident that could lead to a further tightening of firearms legislation, as happened post-Dunblane.
    Oh so he did kill some randoms. The terrorism label is perhaps more appropriate in that case.
    "Davison’s family had sought treatment for his mental health issues."

    This is the real issue. Underfunded mental health services.

    Starmer needs to attack on this one.
    You don’t know that.

    The phrasing is odd - perhaps *he* was unwilling to seek help for the issues but wasn’t deemed serious enough to section
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    pigeon said:

    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
    But if they don’t decimate it they will annoy many of their own supporters and green activists, lobbyists, NGOs and charities as well as getting lots of angry comments on Twitter.
    What Nicola Sturgeon has done, by calling fresh investment in oil into doubt, is to trade two short-term gains (buttering the Greens and blaming something else on the Tories) for one longer-term headache (opening another front against independence.)

    The Scottish Government now not only needs to answer questions about the public sector deficit, the national debt, the currency and balancing relations between the rest of the UK and wider Europe. It will also have to address the suspicion that sovereignty will mean killing the oil and petrochemical industries stone dead to burnish the nation's green credentials, thus liquidating all the jobs and all the tax revenues (and crippling the entire city of Aberdeen into the bargain, in a grim echo of what Margaret Thatcher's policies on coal did to the mining communities.) A strategic misstep.
    Unusual for someone who is usually so sure footed.

    The independence supporters always gloss over the issue of the currency and debt. They have no proper answer to what they will do.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    This is a terribly sad story

    A Cardiff University pharmacy student died within hours of being told she had failed a crucial examination though it was later updated by the University as a pass

    However, the 21 year old never saw the update and was found on rocks below the Britannia Bridge on the 8th July last year

    So sad. In my first term at Law School in York I was told that I had failed a preliminary exam. I asked to see the tutor at my Mother’s insistence when I was on the verge of quitting (law school, not anything more drastic, although I didn’t feel far off) to find out there that someone had put my candidate number down rather than her own. Not only had she failed the exam but she couldn’t even get her number right. I got a transfer down to London at the end of the year.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    kle4 said:


    Theres plenty of crap to spread around. Undoubtedly we and the USA have plenty. But theres no real getting away from the length of time and local leaders and/or people not wanting to build a functioning state if it remains do weak. Is that what powerful interests wanted, for fear of a powerful state.

    There are plenty of countries like that. Paper leviathan I saw them called.

    I get the sense the "Right" are claiming this is a failure of the "Left" and trying to make some political capital.

    To be fair, we did install Karzai in Kabul in 2001but instead of concentrating on Afghan political, military and economic reconstruction, American and western interests moved to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

    Had overthrowing Saddam not been on the agenda, I suspect we'd have seen a deeper commitment to Afghanistan which might have left us in a very different position.

    Not for the first time, the Americans left the job unfinished ad the consequences of that are coming back to haunt them now.
    The point that going into Iraq distracted from the need to focus on Afghanistan, as well as compounding our error by generating yet more regional resistance, was well made on the radio this morning by, I believe, a Tory MP. If only they had been more prescient at the time.
    This was Obama's argument back in 2008. It was probably correct but we did then refocus on Afganistan and caught Bin Laden. The question was why we hung around another decade.
  • Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
    But if they don’t decimate it they will annoy many of their own supporters and green activists, lobbyists, NGOs and charities as well as getting lots of angry comments on Twitter.
    What Nicola Sturgeon has done, by calling fresh investment in oil into doubt, is to trade two short-term gains (buttering the Greens and blaming something else on the Tories) for one longer-term headache (opening another front against independence.)

    The Scottish Government now not only needs to answer questions about the public sector deficit, the national debt, the currency and balancing relations between the rest of the UK and wider Europe. It will also have to address the suspicion that sovereignty will mean killing the oil and petrochemical industries stone dead to burnish the nation's green credentials, thus liquidating all the jobs and all the tax revenues (and crippling the entire city of Aberdeen into the bargain, in a grim echo of what Margaret Thatcher's policies on coal did to the mining communities.) A strategic misstep.
    Unusual for someone who is usually so sure footed.

    The independence supporters always gloss over the issue of the currency and debt. They have no proper answer to what they will do.
    I'm not sure it matters greatly. I imagine an independent Scotland would keep the pound but most people will not care about unlikely hypothetical situations involving the Bank of England acting against Scotland's interests.
  • YoungTurkYoungTurk Posts: 158
    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
    But if they don’t decimate it they will annoy many of their own supporters and green activists, lobbyists, NGOs and charities as well as getting lots of angry comments on Twitter.
    What Nicola Sturgeon has done, by calling fresh investment in oil into doubt, is to trade two short-term gains (buttering the Greens and blaming something else on the Tories) for one longer-term headache (opening another front against independence.)

    The Scottish Government now not only needs to answer questions about the public sector deficit, the national debt, the currency and balancing relations between the rest of the UK and wider Europe. It will also have to address the suspicion that sovereignty will mean killing the oil and petrochemical industries stone dead to burnish the nation's green credentials, thus liquidating all the jobs and all the tax revenues (and crippling the entire city of Aberdeen into the bargain, in a grim echo of what Margaret Thatcher's policies on coal did to the mining communities.) A strategic misstep.
    Unusual for someone who is usually so sure footed.

    The independence supporters always gloss over the issue of the currency and debt. They have no proper answer to what they will do.
    I'm not sure it matters greatly. I imagine an independent Scotland would keep the pound but most people will not care about unlikely hypothetical situations involving the Bank of England acting against Scotland's interests.
    I am pretty sure they will keep the pound although quite how that makes them and independent nation would remain to be seen
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,965

    2021 - 2022 - Premiership season has just kicked off

    And once that money grabbing nonsense is out of the way, we've got a World Cup to look forward to.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    Aslan said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    kle4 said:


    Theres plenty of crap to spread around. Undoubtedly we and the USA have plenty. But theres no real getting away from the length of time and local leaders and/or people not wanting to build a functioning state if it remains do weak. Is that what powerful interests wanted, for fear of a powerful state.

    There are plenty of countries like that. Paper leviathan I saw them called.

    I get the sense the "Right" are claiming this is a failure of the "Left" and trying to make some political capital.

    To be fair, we did install Karzai in Kabul in 2001but instead of concentrating on Afghan political, military and economic reconstruction, American and western interests moved to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

    Had overthrowing Saddam not been on the agenda, I suspect we'd have seen a deeper commitment to Afghanistan which might have left us in a very different position.

    Not for the first time, the Americans left the job unfinished ad the consequences of that are coming back to haunt them now.
    The point that going into Iraq distracted from the need to focus on Afghanistan, as well as compounding our error by generating yet more regional resistance, was well made on the radio this morning by, I believe, a Tory MP. If only they had been more prescient at the time.
    This was Obama's argument back in 2008. It was probably correct but we did then refocus on Afganistan and caught Bin Laden. The question was why we hung around another decade.
    The choices were not going in at all, which probably would have resulted in the lowest death toll, despite the misery the country would have remained trapped within, or going in, sorting out OBL and then getting out leaving a Libyan-type mess behind (Cammo did Libya no favours yet the mess we caused there gets little news coverage nowadays), or, the worst choice, sticking around for twenty years, with a big death toll of Afghans and a lesser but still distressing toll of death and disability of our own troops, and then leaving the place to descend back to the status quo ante.

    What we and the Americans fail to grasp is that you can’t go in and kill all the bad guys; the mere act of occupation and perceived injustice generates new bad guys to replace every one that gets taken out. A lesson it took us a long time to learn even within our own nation.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    2021 - 2022 - Premiership season has just kicked off

    And once that money grabbing nonsense is out of the way, we've got a World Cup to look forward to.
    Lol, a World Cup played in December that was won through bribery.
  • BREAKING: Number of Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 tops 80,000
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813
    YoungTurk said:

    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?

    You could write a book about the last point. In fact, I'm assuming that a number of people probably already have.

    Some (straight) men who can't get laid insist they have a right to sex and turn their anger towards innocent women. A woman who's not getting any would probably just buy some nice battery-powered toys to play with. Go figure.
  • Brentford one up v Arsenal

    Arsenal appear to have put out the youth team...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774

    BREAKING: Number of Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 tops 80,000

    According to CNN, these eight states account for half of that total: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada and Texas,
  • IanB2 said:

    BREAKING: Number of Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 tops 80,000

    According to CNN, these eight states account for half of that total: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada and Texas,
    I wonder what they have in common?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873
    YoungTurk said:

    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?

    Crippling fear of rejection, self hatred, seeking external cause to rage against.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    YoungTurk said:

    Regime media:

    "Boris Johnson has said the UK can be 'extremely proud' of its role in Afghanistan, despite the situation in the country having 'deteriorated'.

    The UK will evacuate the 'vast bulk' of its embassy staff in the coming days as the Taliban continues to advance.

    The prime minister said there was 'no military solution' after an emergency Cobra meeting on Friday afternoon.
    "

    What a pity the unavailability of a military solution, given of course all the non-military realities, wasn't recognised in 2001. How difficult was it to tell George Bush the Younger he could do one? As for the "vast bulk", so the plan is to keep an embassy in Kabul once the Taliban have retaken the capital? Of course it isn't.

    What is the betting that the Brits will have to ask for Russian support in getting to the airport and then flying out safely?

    Talking of Russians, the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan was planned and orderly and took place over several months. They didn't leave it until a week or so before they withdrew to call an emergency meeting and announce there was "no military solution". Really Johnson should fall over this, as Blair should have fallen over Iraq. Has he even mentioned the British service personnel who lost their lives in this utterly unnecessary and futile war? Or is it just that the kingdom should be proud of failing? I get it there won't be an inquiry just yet into why the hell Britain ever invaded in the first place. If there were an opposition, that's what it would be demanding.

    Boris always talks shite.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,800
    IanB2 said:


    The point that going into Iraq distracted from the need to focus on Afghanistan, as well as compounding our error by generating yet more regional resistance, was well made on the radio this morning by, I believe, a Tory MP. If only they had been more prescient at the time.

    The political irony is you now have Trump and his ilk, who call themselves Republicans, having a go at Biden and blaming him for the current crisis.

    The truth is the mistakes were made in the George W Bush presidency when, as I recall, the Republicans controlled the White House, Senate and Congress from 2000-06.

    Bush's "reasons" for going after Saddam seemed more to do with settling a score for his father than any geopolitical reasoning. Saddam was neutered by the Gulf War and little more than an irritation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited August 2021
    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men boasting about their flash lives with hot women on their arms.

    I imagine for many they would feel very inferior seeing this.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,813

    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Taz said:

    pigeon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Not taking a stance and then trying to force the PM to take a stance is not leadership.

    Its a PR stunt of the highest level.


    https://twitter.com/ryancapperauld/status/1426125822096728069?s=21

    Sturgeon hiding behind Boris

    Her true colours on show
    Given that oilfield exploration is not a devoilved matter, you'd have been spluttering if she had tried to close it doen or to approve it directly.
    She is 'spluttering' over an issue that she cannot hide behind Boris but as importantly oil and gas is integral to Scotland independence case
    Not nearly so much now: far more on renewables. The world hass moved on. Which is the issue here - and it will not be anyh more comfortable for Mr Johnson and the Tories, perhaps less so.
    Straight question

    If Boris approves Cambo will Sturgeon join the Greens and Labour and condemn the decision

    Or agree with it
    I really don't know - we are in that sort of zone increasingly.

    Edit: but the situation will change almost monthloy with COP26 coming up. So timing is also an issue.
    Seems SNP are not happy with her

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cambo-oil-field-nicola-sturgeon-faces-snp-backlash-over-opposition-lzbchpqkz
    It's a very rare example of the Scottish Government's default position (oppose the UK Government over practically everything) causing it grief with some of its own supporters. Are there any others?

    Anyway, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow and thence to forcibly shutter its oil extraction and petrochemicals industries, then it could certainly stake a claim to global moral leadership - but moral leadership doesn't pay the bills, as attested to by, for example, the economically crippled condition of post-War Britain.
    Scotland has over 150,000 jobs in the oil and gas industry and the one thing that the SNP cannot do without gaining huge unpopularity is decimate this industry
    But if they don’t decimate it they will annoy many of their own supporters and green activists, lobbyists, NGOs and charities as well as getting lots of angry comments on Twitter.
    What Nicola Sturgeon has done, by calling fresh investment in oil into doubt, is to trade two short-term gains (buttering the Greens and blaming something else on the Tories) for one longer-term headache (opening another front against independence.)

    The Scottish Government now not only needs to answer questions about the public sector deficit, the national debt, the currency and balancing relations between the rest of the UK and wider Europe. It will also have to address the suspicion that sovereignty will mean killing the oil and petrochemical industries stone dead to burnish the nation's green credentials, thus liquidating all the jobs and all the tax revenues (and crippling the entire city of Aberdeen into the bargain, in a grim echo of what Margaret Thatcher's policies on coal did to the mining communities.) A strategic misstep.
    Unusual for someone who is usually so sure footed.

    The independence supporters always gloss over the issue of the currency and debt. They have no proper answer to what they will do.
    I'm not sure it matters greatly. I imagine an independent Scotland would keep the pound but most people will not care about unlikely hypothetical situations involving the Bank of England acting against Scotland's interests.
    The threat of an independent Scotland being stuck with an inappropriate interest rate should it choose to retain sterling is, in anything other than the very long term, probably overdone: a very low interest rate environment throughout the West looks like it's here to stay. What's potentially more interesting is the reaction of the bond markets.

    By opting for sterlingisation, Scotland would place itself in the position of being a newly independent state with no established credit history, borrowing in a foreign currency which it cannot itself issue, to finance a very substantial deficit. This is not optimal.

    The obvious alternative is to do what the Greens have suggested and float a new currency, administered and issued by a Scottish central bank - but that, of course, brings its own challenges.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    edited August 2021
    pigeon said:

    YoungTurk said:

    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?

    You could write a book about the last point. In fact, I'm assuming that a number of people probably already have.

    Some (straight) men who can't get laid insist they have a right to sex and turn their anger towards innocent women. A woman who's not getting any would probably just buy some nice battery-powered toys to play with. Go figure.
    It’s almost as though it’s not only about sex:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/13/plymouth-shooting-suspect-what-we-know-jake-davison

    “Maybe the business owner might go bankrupt twice … but guess what – he had a wife and kids to support him. Does incel or virgin get that? No. Imagine failing at everything in life and having absolutely no support whatsoever.”

    Quite what can be done about this, I don’t know.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
  • Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    An employee getting bitten while collecting samples in a cave is not the lab-leak theory. Admittedly, it has been suggested that Chinese obstruction prevented full exploration of the lab-leak hypothesis, but this is not it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,798
    Otoh there appears to be loads of denizens of an entirely sex-free Middle Earth out there.

    illiberal threat.
    @McDivergence
    the "Book Will Turn Your Kids Trans" crowd really need to start explaining why I am not, in fact, a very hungry caterpillar.
  • stodge said:

    IanB2 said:


    The point that going into Iraq distracted from the need to focus on Afghanistan, as well as compounding our error by generating yet more regional resistance, was well made on the radio this morning by, I believe, a Tory MP. If only they had been more prescient at the time.

    The political irony is you now have Trump and his ilk, who call themselves Republicans, having a go at Biden and blaming him for the current crisis.

    The truth is the mistakes were made in the George W Bush presidency when, as I recall, the Republicans controlled the White House, Senate and Congress from 2000-06.

    Bush's "reasons" for going after Saddam seemed more to do with settling a score for his father than any geopolitical reasoning. Saddam was neutered by the Gulf War and little more than an irritation.
    And Cheney and Rumsfeld's almost colonial desire to capture Iraq's oil; and the whole neocon expectation democracy would flourish if they dropped enough bombs.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,662
    Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    I seem to recall you had outlandish ideas as to its provenance...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    Will be interesting to see if that shows up in the 2021 census.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited August 2021
    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    The second point i think is very pertinent. Mrs U has some single female friends, who are intelligent and self sufficient, they regularly complain about going on dates via apps and the men aren't successful or ambitious enough for them.

    It isn't solely about the money, they aren't looking for a multi-millionaire so they can pack it all in and live a life of luxury, but they want somebody who is driven like them and can enjoy nicer things in life....but they absolutely don't want to be funding the man to do this, it has to be equal. They aren't interested in a nice guy who works in the supermarket and earns minimum wage.

    Where as we know men will do this.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    kle4 said:

    YoungTurk said:

    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?

    Crippling fear of rejection, self hatred, seeking external cause to rage against.
    You’ve just described England’s mental breakdown.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    IanB2 said:

    Aslan said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    kle4 said:


    Theres plenty of crap to spread around. Undoubtedly we and the USA have plenty. But theres no real getting away from the length of time and local leaders and/or people not wanting to build a functioning state if it remains do weak. Is that what powerful interests wanted, for fear of a powerful state.

    There are plenty of countries like that. Paper leviathan I saw them called.

    I get the sense the "Right" are claiming this is a failure of the "Left" and trying to make some political capital.

    To be fair, we did install Karzai in Kabul in 2001but instead of concentrating on Afghan political, military and economic reconstruction, American and western interests moved to Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

    Had overthrowing Saddam not been on the agenda, I suspect we'd have seen a deeper commitment to Afghanistan which might have left us in a very different position.

    Not for the first time, the Americans left the job unfinished ad the consequences of that are coming back to haunt them now.
    The point that going into Iraq distracted from the need to focus on Afghanistan, as well as compounding our error by generating yet more regional resistance, was well made on the radio this morning by, I believe, a Tory MP. If only they had been more prescient at the time.
    This was Obama's argument back in 2008. It was probably correct but we did then refocus on Afganistan and caught Bin Laden. The question was why we hung around another decade.
    The choices were not going in at all, which probably would have resulted in the lowest death toll, despite the misery the country would have remained trapped within, or going in, sorting out OBL and then getting out leaving a Libyan-type mess behind (Cammo did Libya no favours yet the mess we caused there gets little news coverage nowadays), or, the worst choice, sticking around for twenty years, with a big death toll of Afghans and a lesser but still distressing toll of death and disability of our own troops, and then leaving the place to descend back to the status quo ante.

    What we and the Americans fail to grasp is that you can’t go in and kill all the bad guys; the mere act of occupation and perceived injustice generates new bad guys to replace every one that gets taken out. A lesson it took us a long time to learn even within our own nation.
    I agree with the three options but would order them differently. The third is clearly the worst as you say, but you still need a deterrent effect. So the minimum intervention needed to clear put the problem group. That way the next iteration of them will be wary of being killed or out of power for a decade. They will focus on domestic power and not need to provoke problems outside their borders.

    I agree with you that it can cause some sense of perceived injustice, but if you do it based on clear grounds and not manufactured ones, most locals will still think "it was their fault for attacking the West in the first place". And any residual blowback mentality is probably outweighed by the positive deterrent effect.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    An employee getting bitten while collecting samples in a cave is not the lab-leak theory. Admittedly, it has been suggested that Chinese obstruction prevented full exploration of the lab-leak hypothesis, but this is not it.
    Yes it fucking is

    A lab worker researching novel bat Coronaviruses for a specialized lab set up to research novel bat coronaviruses who then brings it back to the city where the same lab does the research - that’s a lab leak

    It leaked because of science and labs. It was it not some ‘natural’ leap from a fucking pangolin to a peasant

    This is goal post shifting on the most heroic level
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    Any evidence for assertion 1)?

    Mrs P. certainly didn't marry 'up' economically.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    kle4 said:

    YoungTurk said:

    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?

    Crippling fear of rejection, self hatred, seeking external cause to rage against.
    You’ve just described England’s mental breakdown.
    Prominent expert on all things English from Sweden gives us the benefit of his wisdom. We are blessed.

    Seriously, find yourself a hobby, some friends, a job, anything. Get a pet maybe. Your unrelenting obsession with denigrating anything and anyone English is deeply unhealthy. Exercise might be good.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    tlg86 said:

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    Will be interesting to see if that shows up in the 2021 census.
    Does the census capture relationship status? Marital status is not much use given the high proportion of couples who decided not get married, at least initially.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    An employee getting bitten while collecting samples in a cave is not the lab-leak theory. Admittedly, it has been suggested that Chinese obstruction prevented full exploration of the lab-leak hypothesis, but this is not it.
    Yes it fucking is

    A lab worker researching novel bat Coronaviruses for a specialized lab set up to research novel bat coronaviruses who then brings it back to the city where the same lab does the research - that’s a lab leak

    It leaked because of science and labs. It was it not some ‘natural’ leap from a fucking pangolin to a peasant

    This is goal post shifting on the most heroic level
    A lab leak would be dropping a test tube in the lab, releasing a virus that had been stored at the lab. This is not that.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123

    tlg86 said:

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    Will be interesting to see if that shows up in the 2021 census.
    Does the census capture relationship status? Marital status is not much use given the high proportion of couples who decided not get married, at least initially.
    It certainly did in 2011.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited August 2021
    Loving the excitement of the Hundred....always said it was a winner ;-) ....why wasn't T20 in England this good?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    I don't know whether that's true in general, but I know several couples in which the woman is the main earner. Indeed, pre-children my wife earned more than me (although not by a huge amount, so we were able to go with her desire for me to be the main earner post children without it being a big deal financially)
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
      

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    An employee getting bitten while collecting samples in a cave is not the lab-leak theory. Admittedly, it has been suggested that Chinese obstruction prevented full exploration of the lab-leak hypothesis, but this is not it.
    Yes it fucking is

    A lab worker researching novel bat Coronaviruses for a specialized lab set up to research novel bat coronaviruses who then brings it back to the city where the same lab does the research - that’s a lab leak

    It leaked because of science and labs. It was it not some ‘natural’ leap from a fucking pangolin to a peasant

    This is goal post shifting on the most heroic level
    A lab leak would be dropping a test tube in the lab, releasing a virus that had been stored at the lab. This is not that.
    lol

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    The second point i think is very pertinent. Mrs U has some single female friends, who are intelligent and self sufficient, they regularly complain about going on dates via apps and the men aren't successful or ambitious enough for them.

    It isn't solely about the money, they aren't looking for a multi-millionaire so they can pack it all in and live a life of luxury, but they want somebody who is driven like them and can enjoy nicer things in life....but they absolutely don't want to be funding the man to do this, it has to be equal. They aren't interested in a nice guy who works in the supermarket and earns minimum wage.

    Where as we know men will do this.
    To be fair on women, there are a lot of unlovable men, and an unlovable man without even the compensation of money or other charm seems a lot worse than being single.

    Who in their right mind would date these incels?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401

    IanB2 said:

    BREAKING: Number of Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 tops 80,000

    According to CNN, these eight states account for half of that total: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada and Texas,
    I wonder what they have in common?
    They will have fewer GOP voters left alive by 2024?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,609
    Selebian said:

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    I don't know whether that's true in general, but I know several couples in which the woman is the main earner. Indeed, pre-children my wife earned more than me (although not by a huge amount, so we were able to go with her desire for me to be the main earner post children without it being a big deal financially)
    (can't edit on mobile?)

    To be fair, I'm not a good example as we probably qualified as economic equals, but my friends include a female lawyer married to an electrician and a goldman employee married to a teacher
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,460
    edited August 2021
    Foxy said:

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    The second point i think is very pertinent. Mrs U has some single female friends, who are intelligent and self sufficient, they regularly complain about going on dates via apps and the men aren't successful or ambitious enough for them.

    It isn't solely about the money, they aren't looking for a multi-millionaire so they can pack it all in and live a life of luxury, but they want somebody who is driven like them and can enjoy nicer things in life....but they absolutely don't want to be funding the man to do this, it has to be equal. They aren't interested in a nice guy who works in the supermarket and earns minimum wage.

    Where as we know men will do this.
    To be fair on women, there are a lot of unlovable men, and an unlovable man without even the compensation of money or other charm seems a lot worse than being single.

    Who in their right mind would date these incels?
    I wasn't blaming them. I think my point was back in the day women didn't earn their own money (or was very limited), so there was pressure on finding yourself a man if you wanted to have a life.

    Now many more women can choose, they are financially independent and successfully, thus a partner has to bring something to the party which significantly inproves their life. They don't need the hassle of some dickhead or weird man.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    YoungTurk said:

    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?

    Crippling fear of rejection, self hatred, seeking external cause to rage against.
    You’ve just described England’s mental breakdown.
    Prominent expert on all things English from Sweden gives us the benefit of his wisdom. We are blessed.

    Seriously, find yourself a hobby, some friends, a job, anything. Get a pet maybe. Your unrelenting obsession with denigrating anything and anyone English is deeply unhealthy. Exercise might be good.

    Stuart Dickson’s visceral hatred of, and inferiority complex to, the English, reminds me a bit of Hitler’s anti-semitism. It is so bizarrely unhinged.

    Many biographers have tried to explain WHY Hitler became so maniacally anti-Jewish. Was he dumped by a Jewish girlfriend? Did he feel outdone by the Jewish kids in Linz who got into art school where he failed? No theory really comprehends it, no historical incident explains it. The floridity is so outrageous

    The odd thing is that, if you can ever get Dickson OFF the subject of Scot Nattery and English evilness, he can be quite civil, even engaging and diverting

    I wonder if Hitler was the same. He’d meet up with his mates for a beer and they’d all agree beforehand ‘look, just don’t mention the Jews’!


  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    Will be interesting to see if that shows up in the 2021 census.
    Does the census capture relationship status? Marital status is not much use given the high proportion of couples who decided not get married, at least initially.
    It certainly did in 2011.
    Ok thanks.

    On a related topic: I have been involved in some interesting conversations with clients regarding whether or not they are in a relationship, since if they are they have to claim UC as a couple (which is considerably less beneficial). The definition of 'a couple' is a bit vague, to say the least. UC encourages people not to form relationships.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Foxy said:

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    The second point i think is very pertinent. Mrs U has some single female friends, who are intelligent and self sufficient, they regularly complain about going on dates via apps and the men aren't successful or ambitious enough for them.

    It isn't solely about the money, they aren't looking for a multi-millionaire so they can pack it all in and live a life of luxury, but they want somebody who is driven like them and can enjoy nicer things in life....but they absolutely don't want to be funding the man to do this, it has to be equal. They aren't interested in a nice guy who works in the supermarket and earns minimum wage.

    Where as we know men will do this.
    To be fair on women, there are a lot of unlovable men, and an unlovable man without even the compensation of money or other charm seems a lot worse than being single.

    Who in their right mind would date these incels?
    And yet plenty of women seem to end up in abusive relationships.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    You do know who follows Hubris, don't you?

    When do the schools go back in Scotland?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    Any evidence for assertion 1)?

    Mrs P. certainly didn't marry 'up' economically.
    It’s almost certainly true. Women desire taller men who are of higher status. Multiple analyses of dating websites prove this.

    It is also true for super rich women. They want men EVEN RICHER than them. Which leaves them a small pool to fish in
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Selebian said:

    Aslan said:

    Is the whole incel thing a subsection of the wider societial issue of the likes of social media boostering all these so called influencers appearing to have the perfect look, the perfect life, endless money, all the latest gear?

    Back in the day you compared yourself with your mates and perhaps the old person you knew that perhaps had a flash car etc.

    Now the lives of the rich is all out there to see and then you have all these fake influencer who make it apper they also have this perfect life.

    An example of this is when I was building my home gym I did a load of research of which kit to buy. My social media even to this day is packed with steroid jacked men as clearly big tech super brain algorithms has equated me wanting gym kit with wanting to see endless pictures of roided up men.

    It's a combination of two effects:

    1) Men will marry up or down in economic status, but women insist on marrying equal or up.

    2) Women now have the same access to economic opportunity as men, at least up to the age of 30 by which time most couples pair up.

    The result is a surplus of unattached men at the low end of economic status and a surplus of women at the high end.
    I don't know whether that's true in general, but I know several couples in which the woman is the main earner. Indeed, pre-children my wife earned more than me (although not by a huge amount, so we were able to go with her desire for me to be the main earner post children without it being a big deal financially)
    I'd be in rhe poor house but for my missus.
    I have other attributes and charms.
  • geoffw said:

      

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    An employee getting bitten while collecting samples in a cave is not the lab-leak theory. Admittedly, it has been suggested that Chinese obstruction prevented full exploration of the lab-leak hypothesis, but this is not it.
    Yes it fucking is

    A lab worker researching novel bat Coronaviruses for a specialized lab set up to research novel bat coronaviruses who then brings it back to the city where the same lab does the research - that’s a lab leak

    It leaked because of science and labs. It was it not some ‘natural’ leap from a fucking pangolin to a peasant

    This is goal post shifting on the most heroic level
    A lab leak would be dropping a test tube in the lab, releasing a virus that had been stored at the lab. This is not that.
    lol

    You have not read the article then, or other coverage, that states pretty clearly that the lab-leak investigation was effectively blocked by China. This is an alternative theory. Separate still is the market theory.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited August 2021
    Brentford 2 up

    How much did Arsenal pay for Ben White
  • Am I right in thinking this incel guy was originally from the US?
  • Brentford 2 up

    Moneyball for the win.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586

    Brentford 2 up

    How much did Arsenal pay for Ben White

    Much quicker following the match here than on BBC live text LOL!
  • Brentford 2 up

    How much did Arsenal pay for Ben White

    £50 million.....
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661

    geoffw said:

      

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    An employee getting bitten while collecting samples in a cave is not the lab-leak theory. Admittedly, it has been suggested that Chinese obstruction prevented full exploration of the lab-leak hypothesis, but this is not it.
    Yes it fucking is

    A lab worker researching novel bat Coronaviruses for a specialized lab set up to research novel bat coronaviruses who then brings it back to the city where the same lab does the research - that’s a lab leak

    It leaked because of science and labs. It was it not some ‘natural’ leap from a fucking pangolin to a peasant

    This is goal post shifting on the most heroic level
    A lab leak would be dropping a test tube in the lab, releasing a virus that had been stored at the lab. This is not that.
    lol

    You have not read the article then, or other coverage, that states pretty clearly that the lab-leak investigation was effectively blocked by China. This is an alternative theory. Separate still is the market theory.
    Oh I did read that and have read plenty of other stuff on the subject, and I think it's not unlikely it came from the lab. But my lol was for your literal description of a lab leak.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    I can see this argument re casual sex in the Internet age.
    But there is still the same men to women ratio for long term relationships. So why should there be men left on the shelf?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    YoungTurk said:

    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?

    Crippling fear of rejection, self hatred, seeking external cause to rage against.
    You’ve just described England’s mental breakdown.
    Prominent expert on all things English from Sweden gives us the benefit of his wisdom. We are blessed.

    Seriously, find yourself a hobby, some friends, a job, anything. Get a pet maybe. Your unrelenting obsession with denigrating anything and anyone English is deeply unhealthy. Exercise might be good.

    Stuart Dickson’s visceral hatred of, and inferiority complex to, the English, reminds me a bit of Hitler’s anti-semitism. It is so bizarrely unhinged.

    Many biographers have tried to explain WHY Hitler became so maniacally anti-Jewish. Was he dumped by a Jewish girlfriend? Did he feel outdone by the Jewish kids in Linz who got into art school where he failed? No theory really comprehends it, no historical incident explains it. The floridity is so outrageous

    The odd thing is that, if you can ever get Dickson OFF the subject of Scot Nattery and English evilness, he can be quite civil, even engaging and diverting

    I wonder if Hitler was the same. He’d meet up with his mates for a beer and they’d all agree beforehand ‘look, just don’t mention the Jews’!


    Ah, fuck it, he’s a small minded knob. I let his derangements wind me up too easily when I really should be feeling pity. He can’t have much of a life.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679

    geoffw said:

      

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    An employee getting bitten while collecting samples in a cave is not the lab-leak theory. Admittedly, it has been suggested that Chinese obstruction prevented full exploration of the lab-leak hypothesis, but this is not it.
    Yes it fucking is

    A lab worker researching novel bat Coronaviruses for a specialized lab set up to research novel bat coronaviruses who then brings it back to the city where the same lab does the research - that’s a lab leak

    It leaked because of science and labs. It was it not some ‘natural’ leap from a fucking pangolin to a peasant

    This is goal post shifting on the most heroic level
    A lab leak would be dropping a test tube in the lab, releasing a virus that had been stored at the lab. This is not that.
    lol

    You have not read the article then, or other coverage, that states pretty clearly that the lab-leak investigation was effectively blocked by China. This is an alternative theory. Separate still is the market theory.
    No, geoffw’s original response was correct and admirably cogent:

    lol
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    dixiedean said:

    I can see this argument re casual sex in the Internet age.
    But there is still the same men to women ratio for long term relationships. So why should there be men left on the shelf?

    Well it’s 105:100 so at least 1 in 21 men will by definition be single at any one time.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,570
    dixiedean said:

    I can see this argument re casual sex in the Internet age.
    But there is still the same men to women ratio for long term relationships. So why should there be men left on the shelf?

    Because there is no economic need to get paired off any more (women have access to fulfilling work, and status, that they haven't had for a long time) and being single is a far preferable option for many women than being tied to some great hairy fool.
  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

      

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    File under Well I Fucking Never



    ‘The World Health Organization has announced it is setting up a new group to trace Covid’s origins, seeking to end what it called “political point scoring” that had hampered investigations. It comes as Danish scientist Peter Ben Embarek, who led the original international mission to Wuhan, unexpectedly suggested in a documentary released yesterday that Covid’s patient zero could be a lab employee infected while collecting bat coronavirus samples.’

    Is NigelB literally the last PB-er pimping out the ‘it came from a bat in a soup in the market’ bollocks?


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/13/coronavirus-live-news-who-expert-wuhan-lab-south-korea?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    An employee getting bitten while collecting samples in a cave is not the lab-leak theory. Admittedly, it has been suggested that Chinese obstruction prevented full exploration of the lab-leak hypothesis, but this is not it.
    Yes it fucking is

    A lab worker researching novel bat Coronaviruses for a specialized lab set up to research novel bat coronaviruses who then brings it back to the city where the same lab does the research - that’s a lab leak

    It leaked because of science and labs. It was it not some ‘natural’ leap from a fucking pangolin to a peasant

    This is goal post shifting on the most heroic level
    A lab leak would be dropping a test tube in the lab, releasing a virus that had been stored at the lab. This is not that.
    lol

    You have not read the article then, or other coverage, that states pretty clearly that the lab-leak investigation was effectively blocked by China. This is an alternative theory. Separate still is the market theory.
    Oh I did read that and have read plenty of other stuff on the subject, and I think it's not unlikely it came from the lab. But my lol was for your literal description of a lab leak.

    That is, in essence, the lab leak theory proposed over the last several months. An inadvertent leak of a stored virus in a lab that may or may not have been appropriately biosecure. Not totally removed from the smallpox leak in Birmingham a few decades back.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,679
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    kle4 said:

    YoungTurk said:

    Re. the Plymouth shootings:
    * it seems the incel scene tanks some men up to have the kind of attitude that can explode in such murderous attacks - this is not the first time;
    * it is clear to those who don't know the scene that much of what is being written about it today by "experts" is gobbledegook, which is presumably even clearer to those who do know it;
    * what the hell is wrong with men who choose to gather with other incel men and moan about how bad it is to be an incel rather than going out and meeting women?

    Crippling fear of rejection, self hatred, seeking external cause to rage against.
    You’ve just described England’s mental breakdown.
    Prominent expert on all things English from Sweden gives us the benefit of his wisdom. We are blessed.

    Seriously, find yourself a hobby, some friends, a job, anything. Get a pet maybe. Your unrelenting obsession with denigrating anything and anyone English is deeply unhealthy. Exercise might be good.

    Stuart Dickson’s visceral hatred of, and inferiority complex to, the English, reminds me a bit of Hitler’s anti-semitism. It is so bizarrely unhinged.

    Many biographers have tried to explain WHY Hitler became so maniacally anti-Jewish. Was he dumped by a Jewish girlfriend? Did he feel outdone by the Jewish kids in Linz who got into art school where he failed? No theory really comprehends it, no historical incident explains it. The floridity is so outrageous

    The odd thing is that, if you can ever get Dickson OFF the subject of Scot Nattery and English evilness, he can be quite civil, even engaging and diverting

    I wonder if Hitler was the same. He’d meet up with his mates for a beer and they’d all agree beforehand ‘look, just don’t mention the Jews’!


    Ah, fuck it, he’s a small minded knob. I let his derangements wind me up too easily when I really should be feeling pity. He can’t have much of a life.
    I confess I find it pleasurable to wind him up when I’m bored. It’s probably a sin which I should abjure

    But hey, life is full of longueurs
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,586
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    I can see this argument re casual sex in the Internet age.
    But there is still the same men to women ratio for long term relationships. So why should there be men left on the shelf?

    Well it’s 105:100 so at least 1 in 21 men will by definition be single at any one time.
    But aren't the extra 5 (in 105) all >70 years old?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Brentford 2 up

    How much did Arsenal pay for Ben White

    Brentford top the Premiership.

    The ghost of Ron Noades will be pleased.
  • Arsenal supporters leaving with near 10 minutes to play including injury time
This discussion has been closed.