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Starmer gets to within 2 percent in YouGov’s “Best PM” tracker – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,127
edited August 2021 in General
imageStarmer gets to within 2 percent in YouGov’s “Best PM” tracker – politicalbetting.com

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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    mwadams said:

    What we are saying is that things have got so bad for Boris, he's almost plumbed SKS's depths?

    Yes, though I'm more sceptical than many on here about the possibility of the Tories ditching Boris if they think he might lose the next election. Starmer only has to beat what's in front of him and it may well be Boris.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    Though needs LD and Green voters to tactically vote Labour if it is to turn into many more Labour seats
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    ‘Joe Biden on 8 July: “The likelihood there’s going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely.”

    @emilyctamkin on the consequences of the latest humiliating chapter in US foreign policy.’

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1426180765872803848?s=21
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    edited August 2021
    tlg86 said:

    mwadams said:

    What we are saying is that things have got so bad for Boris, he's almost plumbed SKS's depths?

    Yes, though I'm more sceptical than many on here about the possibility of the Tories ditching Boris if they think he might lose the next election. Starmer only has to beat what's in front of him and it may well be Boris.
    The question is whether bad opinion polls will cause Boris to retire as a 100 per cent election winner, rather than risk defeat. My guess is he would step down long before Graham Brady has taken his socks off to count the letters.

    ETA by announcing a retirement date well in advance, Boris might even prolong his stay in Number 10.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    Interesting that his first move is a continuation of Trump's (Certainly Trump's rhetoric) move toward isolationism. The war in Afghanistan was ludicrously expensive, I don't see how a continual US presence can be justified there.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    73% of Americans support the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

    https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/562215-poll-73-percent-support-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-steady
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Johnson plus Starmer = only 58% which strikes me as quite low.

    'Somebody else' has a chance. Will the public still love Sunak after this winter's budget?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    ‘We could have kept 3500 troops in Afghanistan and kept a decent status quo. The Biden Administration chose withdrawal. We’re seeing a humanitarian catastrophe and geopolitical disaster unfold, and now, humiliatingly, have to send 3000 troops in to get the remaining Americans out.’

    https://twitter.com/billkristol/status/1425969053647220738?s=21
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    mwadams said:

    What we are saying is that things have got so bad for Boris, he's almost plumbed SKS's depths?

    Fair analysis.

    Neither are doing well.

    Thank goodness for Davey, Sturgeon and Drakeford.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    Nor will Harris either as she is tarred by the same brush.

    Note the article points out Biden was the one who Obama sent to negotiate US withdrawal from Iraq in 2011, by 2014 IS were taking over and Obama had to intervene militarily again to push them back.

    Biden may be repeating the same thing in Afghanistan unfortunately
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Leon said:

    ‘Joe Biden on 8 July: “The likelihood there’s going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely.”

    @emilyctamkin on the consequences of the latest humiliating chapter in US foreign policy.’

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1426180765872803848?s=21

    1 year ago:

    The Afghan government agreed on Sunday to release 400 “hard-core” Taliban prisoners, paving the way for peace talks aimed at ending almost two decades of war.

    The insurgent group welcomed the move and said it was ready to begin talks within 10 days of the release.

    Under election-year pressure from U.S. President Donald Trump for a deal allowing him to bring home American troops, the country’s grand assembly, or Loya Jirga, on Sunday approved the release.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-taliban/afghanistan-to-release-400-hard-core-taliban-prisoners-in-bid-for-peace-idUSKCN25507I
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    73% of Americans support the withdrawal from Afghanistan.

    https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/562215-poll-73-percent-support-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan-steady
    For now and assuming no 9/11 2 on another major US city
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    ‘We could have kept 3500 troops in Afghanistan and kept a decent status quo. The Biden Administration chose withdrawal. We’re seeing a humanitarian catastrophe and geopolitical disaster unfold, and now, humiliatingly, have to send 3000 troops in to get the remaining Americans out.’

    https://twitter.com/billkristol/status/1425969053647220738?s=21

    I'll concede the final exit doesn't seem to have been planned too well.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    StuartDickson said:

    mwadams said:

    What we are saying is that things have got so bad for Boris, he's almost plumbed SKS's depths?

    Fair analysis.

    Neither are doing well.

    Thank goodness for Davey, Sturgeon and Drakeford.
    Interestingly, Davey was the first to lay into Biden over Afghanistan before Boris could even tuck his shirt in or Starmer ask a focus group.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    StuartDickson said:

    mwadams said:

    What we are saying is that things have got so bad for Boris, he's almost plumbed SKS's depths?

    Fair analysis.

    Neither are doing well.

    Thank goodness for Davey, Sturgeon and Drakeford.
    This Sturgeon you mean

    BBC News - 'Stress and frustration' over Scotland's paper vaccine pass
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57862733
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Imagine my shock. Plymouth gunman's YouTube subs.

    https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1426195072710758401
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    Absolutely tragic in Plymouth.

    From the BBC website:

    "YouTube has confirmed an account belonging to the Plymouth gunman has been terminated from the platform, for violating its offline behaviour policy."
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    ‘We could have kept 3500 troops in Afghanistan and kept a decent status quo. The Biden Administration chose withdrawal. We’re seeing a humanitarian catastrophe and geopolitical disaster unfold, and now, humiliatingly, have to send 3000 troops in to get the remaining Americans out.’

    https://twitter.com/billkristol/status/1425969053647220738?s=21

    I'll concede the final exit doesn't seem to have been planned too well.
    We threw everything we possibly could to sort out Afghanistan. Occupation for a generation, trillions of American dollars spend, and more than 2,000 American lives. If after all that they still collapse within weeks then it just shows the place is a lost cause. Those arguing against withdrawal are arguing for permanent occupation, equivalent to Israel in the West Bank. And of course, similar logic could apply to Libya, or Syria, or Somalia, or, when they eventually run out of oil money, Saudi Arabia. It's an argument for Western colonialism. Complete madness.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Imagine my shock. Plymouth gunman's YouTube subs.

    https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1426195072710758401

    Wouldn't you need to be a policeman involved with the investigation to know this information....?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,825
    contrarian said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Imagine my shock. Plymouth gunman's YouTube subs.

    https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1426195072710758401

    Wouldn't you need to be a policeman involved with the investigation to know this information....?
    You can make your youtube subscriptions public. You just have to look on their account to see them.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    Nor will Harris either as she is tarred by the same brush.

    Note the article points out Biden was the one who Obama sent to negotiate US withdrawal from Iraq in 2011, by 2014 IS were taking over and Obama had to intervene militarily again to push them back.

    Biden may be repeating the same thing in Afghanistan unfortunately
    To be fair, Joe can't remember last week, so 10 years ago is well beyond his ability at this point.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited August 2021
    North Wales most popular holiday destination this summer overtaking Devon and Cornwall for the first time

    BBC News - Covid: Record visits to north Wales boost tourism
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58189968
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    contrarian said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Imagine my shock. Plymouth gunman's YouTube subs.

    https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1426195072710758401

    Wouldn't you need to be a policeman involved with the investigation to know this information....?
    No, like Twitter settings, people can see who you follow.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    edited August 2021
    It’s universal. The Washington Post

    "#Afghanistan’s rapid collapse is part of a long, slow U.S. defeat"
    "#Biden, a veteran of the #Obama years, now owns his own moment in Afghanistan’s tumultuous #history, a #tragedy many years in the making."
    washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/…

    https://twitter.com/onevenusthrow/status/1426196463554605057?s=21
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    contrarian said:

    Johnson plus Starmer = only 58% which strikes me as quite low.

    'Somebody else' has a chance. Will the public still love Sunak after this winter's budget?

    Yes. Interesting to note that all the previous times Johnson has been as low as 30% then Starmer has been ahead - but not this time.

    Does look like a plague on both your houses - a particularly harsh judgement given recent experience.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,169
    Leon said:

    It’s universal. The Washington Post

    "#Afghanistan’s rapid collapse is part of a long, slow U.S. defeat"
    "#Biden, a veteran of the #Obama years, now owns his own moment in Afghanistan’s tumultuous #history, a #tragedy many years in the making."
    washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/…

    https://twitter.com/onevenusthrow/status/1426196463554605057?s=21

    Will this cost the Democrats the House and Senate next year?
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573
    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
    I'm not sure it was a binary choice between forever occupation and chaotic sprint for the last flight before the zombie hoard breaches the door.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    maaarsh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    Nor will Harris either as she is tarred by the same brush.

    Note the article points out Biden was the one who Obama sent to negotiate US withdrawal from Iraq in 2011, by 2014 IS were taking over and Obama had to intervene militarily again to push them back.

    Biden may be repeating the same thing in Afghanistan unfortunately
    To be fair, Joe can't remember last week, so 10 years ago is well beyond his ability at this point.
    He has shown more understanding of the long term and learning from experience than any of the retarded Trumpers that like to manufacture slurs based on age.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
    I'm not sure it was a binary choice between forever occupation and chaotic sprint for the last flight before the zombie hoard breaches the door.
    Chaotic sprint? We have been nation building for 20 years and the withdrawal was known about since January. Pray, tell me this middle ground that would work so well.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    FPT:
    JosiasJessop said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Fysics_Teacher said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
    The dockyard is also in a densely populated area, which poses a safety risk. There are about 166,000 people living within 5km of the Devonport base, compared with about 5,200 within that distance of Faslane and fewer close to Coulport. The city of Plymouth has about 250,000 residents and is within 3.5km of the dockyard. Glasgow has a population of about 600,000, but it is 25km away from Faslane.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Dom Sibley deserves to be horsewhipped.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573
    Aslan said:

    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
    I'm not sure it was a binary choice between forever occupation and chaotic sprint for the last flight before the zombie hoard breaches the door.
    Chaotic sprint? We have been nation building for 20 years and the withdrawal was known about since January. Pray, tell me this middle ground that would work so well.
    If you think this was a finely executed policy choice which has landed just as Joe wisely foresaw, them I'm happy to leave you to it and the rest of us can see if for what it is.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,177
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Dom Sibley deserves to be horsewhipped.

    I’d settle for dropped...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    edited August 2021
    Today's numbers

    32,700 and 100 deaths
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Oh dear, Hameed.

    Five year wait and a golden duck.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    23 for 2
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh dear, Hameed.

    Five year wait and a golden duck.

    There's always the second innings...
    Which at this rate might take place fairly soon.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    Which will fall first, Kabul or the England batting ?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,871
    Leon said:

    ‘Joe Biden on 8 July: “The likelihood there’s going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely.”

    @emilyctamkin on the consequences of the latest humiliating chapter in US foreign policy.’

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1426180765872803848?s=21

    It's incomprehensible to me that people didn't see this coming. As soon as Trump mentioned pulling the US troops from Afghanistan I thought that it would inevitably lead to the Taliban resuming power, okay they aren't there yet but they are getting awful close. The only thing that has surprised me is the speed.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh dear, Hameed.

    Five year wait and a golden duck.

    Hundred in the warm up game against India - obviously the selectors wisely chose to ice him on the bench and then bat him out of position after a 2 week break - the incumbents were doing so well they couldn't risk him in his actual position for the start of the series...
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
    I'm not sure it was a binary choice between forever occupation and chaotic sprint for the last flight before the zombie hoard breaches the door.
    Chaotic sprint? We have been nation building for 20 years and the withdrawal was known about since January. Pray, tell me this middle ground that would work so well.
    If you think this was a finely executed policy choice which has landed just as Joe wisely foresaw, them I'm happy to leave you to it and the rest of us can see if for what it is.
    What a nice way to dodge answering the question. You can't tell me the supposed middle ground here because it doesn't exist. Trump wanted to pull out sooner.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    turbotubbs said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Dom Sibley deserves to be horsewhipped.

    I’d settle for dropped...
    Yup, we need to horsewhip Chris Silverwood and everyone else who decided to get rid of Ed Smith and make the coach the national selector.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,573
    Aslan said:

    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
    I'm not sure it was a binary choice between forever occupation and chaotic sprint for the last flight before the zombie hoard breaches the door.
    Chaotic sprint? We have been nation building for 20 years and the withdrawal was known about since January. Pray, tell me this middle ground that would work so well.
    If you think this was a finely executed policy choice which has landed just as Joe wisely foresaw, them I'm happy to leave you to it and the rest of us can see if for what it is.
    What a nice way to dodge answering the question. You can't tell me the supposed middle ground here because it doesn't exist. Trump wanted to pull out sooner.
    So the 'retarded' Trumpers were even wiser? Funny old world.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Fascinating that the opinion of the insider Beltway Media who are completely out of touch with Real America is now the definitive word on how Biden's Afghan policy is being received.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    contrarian said:

    StuartDickson said:

    mwadams said:

    What we are saying is that things have got so bad for Boris, he's almost plumbed SKS's depths?

    Fair analysis.

    Neither are doing well.

    Thank goodness for Davey, Sturgeon and Drakeford.
    Interestingly, Davey was the first to lay into Biden over Afghanistan before Boris could even tuck his shirt in or Starmer ask a focus group.
    While the official government line, as per our SoS for Defence this morning, is that Trump is to blame.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Nigelb said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh dear, Hameed.

    Five year wait and a golden duck.

    There's always the second innings...
    Which at this rate might take place fairly soon.
    Dan Lawrence was dropped to give space for him.....
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
    I'm not sure it was a binary choice between forever occupation and chaotic sprint for the last flight before the zombie hoard breaches the door.
    The US had 100,000 soldiers deployed at peak. This year has seen them withdraw their final 3,500.

    That seems fairly gradual to me.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Joyous & civic:

    Which team did Scots who watched the UEFA Euro 2020 Final support?

    Italy: 59%
    England: 26%
    Neither: 14%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1426197132223070208?s=20

    Are "Jock-land" and "Jock-experts" now the officially sanctioned descriptors non "blood & soil" commentators permitted to use?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    turbotubbs said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Dom Sibley deserves to be horsewhipped.

    I’d settle for dropped...
    Yup, we need to horsewhip Chris Silverwood and everyone else who decided to get rid of Ed Smith and make the coach the national selector.
    It does not matter who you have as a selector if the players are not there to select though, surely.

    County Cricket is meant to prepare England players for the test arena. It has been failing in that function for decades.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    edited August 2021
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh dear, Hameed.

    Five year wait and a golden duck.

    No sport creates stories like Test cricket does, but they're not always happy ones.

    Does show the problem with all the calls to drop people from the team. What if the new players do worse?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    CarlottaVance said:

    FPT:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Fysics_Teacher said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
    The dockyard is also in a densely populated area, which poses a safety risk. There are about 166,000 people living within 5km of the Devonport base, compared with about 5,200 within that distance of Faslane and fewer close to Coulport. The city of Plymouth has about 250,000 residents and is within 3.5km of the dockyard. Glasgow has a population of about 600,000, but it is 25km away from Faslane.
    That wording doesn't make sense from my knowledge of the areas. It's also self-contradictory. The 'city' of PLymouth is about 11 km across for a start, and ends at the dockyard on the west side. Also it assumes there's nothing on the Clyde between Gareloch and Glasgow city. Greenock, Helensburgh, Paisley etc. don't even get mentioned. It's a complete mess.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    CarlottaVance said:

    Joyous & civic:

    Which team did Scots who watched the UEFA Euro 2020 Final support?

    Italy: 59%
    England: 26%
    Neither: 14%

    https://twitter.com/RedfieldWilton/status/1426197132223070208?s=20

    Are "Jock-land" and "Jock-experts" now the officially sanctioned descriptors non "blood & soil" commentators permitted to use?

    Did it never occur tio you that that was the perfect opportunity for a pisstake?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,825
    Carnyx said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    FPT:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Fysics_Teacher said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
    The dockyard is also in a densely populated area, which poses a safety risk. There are about 166,000 people living within 5km of the Devonport base, compared with about 5,200 within that distance of Faslane and fewer close to Coulport. The city of Plymouth has about 250,000 residents and is within 3.5km of the dockyard. Glasgow has a population of about 600,000, but it is 25km away from Faslane.
    That wording doesn't make sense from my knowledge of the areas. It's also self-contradictory. The 'city' of PLymouth is about 11 km across for a start, and ends at the dockyard on the west side. Also it assumes there's nothing on the Clyde between Gareloch and Glasgow city. Greenock, Helensburgh, Paisley etc. don't even get mentioned. It's a complete mess.
    If you look on a map, the center of Devonport is only a couple of km from the center of Plymouth.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    Alistair said:

    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
    I'm not sure it was a binary choice between forever occupation and chaotic sprint for the last flight before the zombie hoard breaches the door.
    The US had 100,000 soldiers deployed at peak. This year has seen them withdraw their final 3,500.

    That seems fairly gradual to me.
    Sure, but asking the Taliban nicely to not attack the embassy whilst you get everyone out ?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    maaarsh said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Even the New York Times

    "History will record Mr. Biden, a supposed master of foreign policy for decades, as having failed in this most critical assignment." nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opi… #afghanistan


    https://twitter.com/michaelcdeibert/status/1426148171202416645?s=21

    Yes, neocons exist at the top of the Democratic establishment too. Clearly another decade or six was not going to change things. The US needed to cut its losses or continue to throw good blood and money after bad. The fact Biden has the ability to step back and see this shows his insight, and also his cullions to stand up against the vested interests and news cycle.
    I'm not sure it was a binary choice between forever occupation and chaotic sprint for the last flight before the zombie hoard breaches the door.
    Chaotic sprint? We have been nation building for 20 years and the withdrawal was known about since January. Pray, tell me this middle ground that would work so well.
    If you think this was a finely executed policy choice which has landed just as Joe wisely foresaw, them I'm happy to leave you to it and the rest of us can see if for what it is.
    What a nice way to dodge answering the question. You can't tell me the supposed middle ground here because it doesn't exist. Trump wanted to pull out sooner.
    So the 'retarded' Trumpers were even wiser? Funny old world.
    No, what Trump wanted and practical logistics are different matters. Had he remained in power the timelime would have been similar.

    Now I have answered your question. Time for you to answer mine. What does this middle ground timeline look like? The silence is deafening.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    Growing up I remember India's pace attack being below par compared to Aus, Eng, W Indies... - now it's one of the best !
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Nicola Sturgeon has really struggled on this issue. It was painful to watch her refusing to answer a simple question from young activists, especially when her reason for avoiding taking a position was that she couldn’t comment on reserved matters(!)

    Clearly, this isn’t a sustainable position for someone who has spent her entire life doing just that, so she turned to the old tactic of shifting responsibility onto Westminster. She, a nationalist First Minister, decided to write to a British Prime Minister to ask if he wouldn’t mind double-checking whether drilling for oil was bad for climate change. It is literally ridiculous......

    Sturgeon struggles to disavow fossil fuels because it means giving up the animating grievance of the last 50 years of Scottish nationalism. And where would a nationalist be without the ability to fight the rapacious outsider looting native resources?

    https://notesonnationalism.substack.com/p/the-snps-subs
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    I know Syria is Russia/Iran/Assad now but are there any foreign forces left in Iraq ?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    TBH I think the timing of this retreat is closely linked to presidential election cycle: just after the last election and well before the next. The timing is bipartisan you might say.

    Question, I suppose, is whether a defeat can be anything other than chaotic, because this one one certainly is.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    LostPassword said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh dear, Hameed.

    Five year wait and a golden duck.

    No sport creates stories like Test cricket does, but they're not always happy ones.

    Does show the problem with all the calls to drop people from the team. What if the new players do worse?
    I feel sorry for any English player coming into the test arena. How are they meant to prepare? They don't get anything like this level of pressure anywhere.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    CarlottaVance said:

    Nicola Sturgeon has really struggled on this issue. It was painful to watch her refusing to answer a simple question from young activists, especially when her reason for avoiding taking a position was that she couldn’t comment on reserved matters(!)

    Clearly, this isn’t a sustainable position for someone who has spent her entire life doing just that, so she turned to the old tactic of shifting responsibility onto Westminster. She, a nationalist First Minister, decided to write to a British Prime Minister to ask if he wouldn’t mind double-checking whether drilling for oil was bad for climate change. It is literally ridiculous......

    Sturgeon struggles to disavow fossil fuels because it means giving up the animating grievance of the last 50 years of Scottish nationalism. And where would a nationalist be without the ability to fight the rapacious outsider looting native resources?

    https://notesonnationalism.substack.com/p/the-snps-subs

    And this

    BBC News - Oil: from bonanza to dilemma
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-58195442
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    FPT:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Fysics_Teacher said:

    StuartDickson said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    On Afghan it really is quite simple.

    There is not here, nor is there in the US, the political will to send the hundreds of thousands of troops there that would be required to make and then keep the peace.

    It seems to me that what was really needed was for the bad guys to be wiped out. But there's certainly no will for that.
    Oh absolutely. We all want the bad guys to be wiped out. It's doing it that has proved so tricky.
    I am not sure that we do. What we really want is for the "bad guys" to repent and reform. It is not possible to wipe out evil by wiping out "evil" people, because the battle between good and evil is an internal one in every individuals soul, and one that never reaches conclusion in this life. We can only wipe out evil by wiping ourselves out.

    Indeed, recognising that some of our own motivations and desires are evil is the first step to rooting out the causes of war.

    Trident at your service.

    You’ll find it just outside Scotland’s biggest city. For some reason they didn’t want it just outside England’s biggest city. They must think we’re more evil than they are.
    Geography is not your strong point I assume.
    Oh sure, Trident is located in Jockland because of “geography”. Nothing to do with Jock lives being worth less.
    Well, yes. If Scotland was a landlocked country, you probably wouldn't have a submarine base. ;) But the deep lochs and easy access to the North Atlantic also make it rather useful.

    BTW, is 'Jock' now an acceptable word to use for our Scottish friends?
    They could have been based at Devonport which would have avoided the necessity of driving nuclear warheads 400 miles up and down the country. The selection of Faslane (and RNAD Coulport) definitely had an element of damage limitation for English population centres to it.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28009977
    The dockyard is also in a densely populated area, which poses a safety risk. There are about 166,000 people living within 5km of the Devonport base, compared with about 5,200 within that distance of Faslane and fewer close to Coulport. The city of Plymouth has about 250,000 residents and is within 3.5km of the dockyard. Glasgow has a population of about 600,000, but it is 25km away from Faslane.
    That wording doesn't make sense from my knowledge of the areas. It's also self-contradictory. The 'city' of PLymouth is about 11 km across for a start, and ends at the dockyard on the west side. Also it assumes there's nothing on the Clyde between Gareloch and Glasgow city. Greenock, Helensburgh, Paisley etc. don't even get mentioned. It's a complete mess.
    If you look on a map, the center of Devonport is only a couple of km from the center of Plymouth.
    Bit ore than that as I recall, for the dockyard to (say) Drake Circus. Not that it makes much difference in this context, but, maybe they meant to say 'city centre was 3.5 km ...'.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    LostPassword said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Oh dear, Hameed.

    Five year wait and a golden duck.

    No sport creates stories like Test cricket does, but they're not always happy ones.

    Does show the problem with all the calls to drop people from the team. What if the new players do worse?
    I did worry that another failure at test level destroys Hameed's cricket career and he ends up being the new Mark Lathwell.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    It’s universal. The Washington Post

    "#Afghanistan’s rapid collapse is part of a long, slow U.S. defeat"
    "#Biden, a veteran of the #Obama years, now owns his own moment in Afghanistan’s tumultuous #history, a #tragedy many years in the making."
    washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/…

    https://twitter.com/onevenusthrow/status/1426196463554605057?s=21

    Will this cost the Democrats the House and Senate next year?
    If there is another major terrorist attack on a major US city killing large numbers of civilians before then and planned by a resurgent Al Qaeda in Afghanistan yes
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    TBH I think the timing of this retreat is closely linked to presidential election cycle: just after the last election and well before the next. The timing is bipartisan you might say.

    Question, I suppose, is whether a defeat can be anything other than chaotic, because this one one certainly is.
    Cutting your losses is never going to feel or look good. That doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. But the reality is that America will not be losing over 100 young men and women every year over there, to build a nation that can never be built.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926
    Trump is very lucky this happened under Biden's watch.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    It’s universal. The Washington Post

    "#Afghanistan’s rapid collapse is part of a long, slow U.S. defeat"
    "#Biden, a veteran of the #Obama years, now owns his own moment in Afghanistan’s tumultuous #history, a #tragedy many years in the making."
    washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/…

    https://twitter.com/onevenusthrow/status/1426196463554605057?s=21

    Will this cost the Democrats the House and Senate next year?
    Don’t know, but I have seldom seen such bipartisan, across-the-board condemnation of a presidential policy - and the critiques are savage

    And America’s allies are no less scathing: the FAZ calls it a ‘total failure’

    ‘Kandahar und Herat gefallen: Biden hat Afghanistan den Taliban ausgeliefert faz.net/-gq5-aeq6h?GEP… via @faznet Völliges Versagen der Politik die tollen Kanzlerin u des Spuperpräsidenten in den USA. Die die Afgha verteidigen sollen sind zu millionen in Merkel-D, Frauen Kinder wo?’
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,169
    England scored one run in the first 22 minutes after tea.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK cases by specimen date

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK local R

    image
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    I wonder if Elon Musk is regretting building his factory in Germany. Union rights have now become an election issue and he’s had an embarrassing press conference with the CDU chancellor candidate Laschet who started questioning whether hydrogen cars might be the future.

    https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/1426157837504466944
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    It seems to me that Biden is facing a huge crisis over his confirmation of US withdrawal, and goodness knows where this will end but two things I do not want to happen

    Trump is elected next President

    The UK enters the arena again
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    It’s universal. The Washington Post

    "#Afghanistan’s rapid collapse is part of a long, slow U.S. defeat"
    "#Biden, a veteran of the #Obama years, now owns his own moment in Afghanistan’s tumultuous #history, a #tragedy many years in the making."
    washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/…

    https://twitter.com/onevenusthrow/status/1426196463554605057?s=21

    Will this cost the Democrats the House and Senate next year?
    Don’t know, but I have seldom seen such bipartisan, across-the-board condemnation of a presidential policy - and the critiques are savage

    And America’s allies are no less scathing: the FAZ calls it a ‘total failure’

    ‘Kandahar und Herat gefallen: Biden hat Afghanistan den Taliban ausgeliefert faz.net/-gq5-aeq6h?GEP… via @faznet Völliges Versagen der Politik die tollen Kanzlerin u des Spuperpräsidenten in den USA. Die die Afgha verteidigen sollen sind zu millionen in Merkel-D, Frauen Kinder wo?’
    At this point the position of the US abroad is at its weakest since the fall of Saigon in the 1970s and the Carter and Ford administrations.

    In fact it is weaker as China is now more powerful than the USSR was then
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited August 2021
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    TBH I think the timing of this retreat is closely linked to presidential election cycle: just after the last election and well before the next. The timing is bipartisan you might say.

    Question, I suppose, is whether a defeat can be anything other than chaotic, because this one one certainly is.
    For context. This was the map in 2017 of areas under government control (dark blue) and Taliban control (red). The light blue areas were areas under no control, where the Taliban could move at will. The Afghan government was probably doomed even then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57933979




  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    UK case summary

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    UK hospitals

    image
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    UK deaths

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    UK R

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Age related data

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  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,169
    Rory Bremner has annoyed a lot of people with his comments about Dom Sibley.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,586
    Age related data scaled to 100K

    image
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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,892
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    It seems to me that Biden is facing a huge crisis over his confirmation of US withdrawal, and goodness knows where this will end but two things I do not want to happen

    Trump is elected next President

    The UK enters the arena again

    Trump was constantly banging on about getting out of foreign wars though !
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Andy_JS said:

    England scored one run in the first 22 minutes after tea.

    And they wonder why the hundreds are popular

    This is boring and unwatchable cricket
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,830
    Andy_JS said:

    Rory Bremner has annoyed a lot of people with his comments about Dom Sibley.

    Imagine if he'd suggested Sibley deserved a horsewhipping..
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    edited August 2021
    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    TBH I think the timing of this retreat is closely linked to presidential election cycle: just after the last election and well before the next. The timing is bipartisan you might say.

    Question, I suppose, is whether a defeat can be anything other than chaotic, because this one one certainly is.

    Trump ‘got away’ with scuttling out of Syria, but that’s partly because Syria was a war torn nightmare, and America’s departure didn’t make things particularly worse. They were already about as bad as can be. Plus Assad and the Russians remained in situ, to keep the jihadis down

    Afghanistan is different. There is no Assad or Putin to prevent the full dystopian jihadi nightmare

    If Afghanistan reverts to gays being pushed off walls, women being stoned to death, mass public torture, then it will all be on Biden right until the next election, and it will all be on American TV

    It certainly won’t be ‘good’ for him, but maybe Americans will shrug and look away

    On the other hand, if, as HYUFD says, Isis or Al-Q launch terror attacks from Afghanistan that will surely damage Biden
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    It’s universal. The Washington Post

    "#Afghanistan’s rapid collapse is part of a long, slow U.S. defeat"
    "#Biden, a veteran of the #Obama years, now owns his own moment in Afghanistan’s tumultuous #history, a #tragedy many years in the making."
    washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/…

    https://twitter.com/onevenusthrow/status/1426196463554605057?s=21

    Will this cost the Democrats the House and Senate next year?
    Don’t know, but I have seldom seen such bipartisan, across-the-board condemnation of a presidential policy - and the critiques are savage

    And America’s allies are no less scathing: the FAZ calls it a ‘total failure’

    ‘Kandahar und Herat gefallen: Biden hat Afghanistan den Taliban ausgeliefert faz.net/-gq5-aeq6h?GEP… via @faznet Völliges Versagen der Politik die tollen Kanzlerin u des Spuperpräsidenten in den USA. Die die Afgha verteidigen sollen sind zu millionen in Merkel-D, Frauen Kinder wo?’
    At this point the position of the US abroad is at its weakest since the fall of Saigon in the 1970s and the Carter and Ford administrations.

    In fact it is weaker as China is now more powerful than the USSR was then
    People need to make their minds up as to whether they want America to be a global policeman or to cultivate its garden.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    Rory Bremner.

    No disrespect, but Dom Sibley joins a distinguished group of batsmen (Gary Kirsten, Chanderpaul and Tavaré come to mind) that I’d rather pay to give runs to rather than watch the agony of their making them. #ENGvIND
    @bbctms

    Good luck to the lad though. It’s hard graft being an opener. (Though someone I know claims his granny’d have done better with a stick o’ rhubarb)

    https://twitter.com/rorybremner/status/1426187052148736001
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,753
    edited August 2021
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Leon said:

    Biden getting destroyed on the Afghan debacle. Even liberal outlets like CNN

    They actually compare him to Chamberlain dealing with Hitler. No joke

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/12/opinions/afghanistan-president-biden-debacle-bergen/index.html

    If this stuff sticks, no way he runs again in 2024. HYUFD was right

    TBH I think the timing of this retreat is closely linked to presidential election cycle: just after the last election and well before the next. The timing is bipartisan you might say.

    Question, I suppose, is whether a defeat can be anything other than chaotic, because this one one certainly is.
    For context. This was the map in 2017 of areas under government control (dark blue) and Taliban control (red). The light blue areas were areas under no control, where the Taliban could move at will. The Afghan government was probably doomed even then.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57933979




    It is a defeat in the sense of the withdrawal from Vietnam was a defeat.

    It is however not not the right thing to do.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,749
    Pulpstar said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    It seems to me that Biden is facing a huge crisis over his confirmation of US withdrawal, and goodness knows where this will end but two things I do not want to happen

    Trump is elected next President

    The UK enters the arena again

    Trump was constantly banging on about getting out of foreign wars though !
    I still do not want him near office again
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,926
    williamglenn said:

    I wonder if Elon Musk is regretting building his factory in Germany. Union rights have now become an election issue and he’s had an embarrassing press conference with the CDU chancellor candidate Laschet who started questioning whether hydrogen cars might be the future.

    https://twitter.com/dw_politics/status/1426157837504466944

    Given the German car manufacturers have gone all in with batteries (unlike the Japanese), that is a particularly odd comment.

    My guess is that they went for Germany because those gigafactories don’t just supply Tesla, and they want to be where the highest concentration of car making is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,276
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    It’s universal. The Washington Post

    "#Afghanistan’s rapid collapse is part of a long, slow U.S. defeat"
    "#Biden, a veteran of the #Obama years, now owns his own moment in Afghanistan’s tumultuous #history, a #tragedy many years in the making."
    washingtonpost.com/world/2021/08/…

    https://twitter.com/onevenusthrow/status/1426196463554605057?s=21

    Will this cost the Democrats the House and Senate next year?
    Don’t know, but I have seldom seen such bipartisan, across-the-board condemnation of a presidential policy - and the critiques are savage

    And America’s allies are no less scathing: the FAZ calls it a ‘total failure’

    ‘Kandahar und Herat gefallen: Biden hat Afghanistan den Taliban ausgeliefert faz.net/-gq5-aeq6h?GEP… via @faznet Völliges Versagen der Politik die tollen Kanzlerin u des Spuperpräsidenten in den USA. Die die Afgha verteidigen sollen sind zu millionen in Merkel-D, Frauen Kinder wo?’
    At this point the position of the US abroad is at its weakest since the fall of Saigon in the 1970s and the Carter and Ford administrations.

    In fact it is weaker as China is now more powerful than the USSR was then
    People need to make their minds up as to whether they want America to be a global policeman or to cultivate its garden.
    If America is not the global policeman then China in the East and Africa and Russia in the Middle East and Europe will happily fill the gap
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    iSAGE - the link between cases and hospitalization is no longer weakening.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    My word, vaccines work, who could have foretold that?

    Two weeks after Lollapalooza, only 203 of the estimated 385,000O attendees have tested positive. There was, obviously, no social distancing, and there was little masking until final day. But there was a vaccine/neg.test requirement, and at least 88% of attendees were vaxxed.

    https://twitter.com/JamesSurowiecki/status/1426190570020614149
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,169
    Spending 20 years training the Afghan army was a waste of time, wasn't it? They only lasted a few weeks in most of the country.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Rory Bremner.

    No disrespect, but Dom Sibley joins a distinguished group of batsmen (Gary Kirsten, Chanderpaul and Tavaré come to mind) that I’d rather pay to give runs to rather than watch the agony of their making them. #ENGvIND
    @bbctms

    Good luck to the lad though. It’s hard graft being an opener. (Though someone I know claims his granny’d have done better with a stick o’ rhubarb)

    https://twitter.com/rorybremner/status/1426187052148736001

    Let us raise the spirit of the late lamented Trevor 'Barnacle' Bailey. Our hero when I was at school.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,169
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Andy_JS said:

    England scored one run in the first 22 minutes after tea.

    And they wonder why the hundreds are popular

    This is boring and unwatchable cricket
    I disagree. It's always interesting when wickets are falling. 2 wickets in 2 balls just after tea.
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