I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.
In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.
I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.
If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.
Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house. Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
Depends on the car. You can charge new Skodas off the mains, for instance, the Octavia hybrid.
All EVs I have encountered can charge from UK mains via a standard plug. They all seem to come with a bag of adapters for the various charging systems.
Drove with a friend in their Tesla from Amsterdam to Heidelberg. Stopped twice at Superchargers for a coffee. Brilliant. If I could afford it I’d buy one.
I have only charged twice at commercial chargers, and once was out of curiosity. I simply charge at home. There is though a need to have fewer apps and a more transparent pricing for these for those who cannot charge in a driveway, and for lamp post charging in areas without drives.
I am waiting for a compact eV with better range before scrapping my Fiat 500, which probably just has a couple more years to go. The Renault Zoe is perhaps the only compact with good range.
What floor of your tower block do you live on, Foxy?
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace. For a new vehicle the argument for EVs is strong but a large proportion of people wouldn't consider buying a new car particularly as they have significantly risen in price in recent years. The demand for used cars is growing and EV's are >2% of this.
I do not buy the saving the world argument at all. The benefits of EVs are simply to do with air quality and possibly noise. However. there is nothing at all virtuous about driving a 1.5 ton lump of metal 1 mile to work or school. When you think about it, it is absurd. Walk, cycle or get an electric scooter.
The fundamental reason for replacing ICEs with EVs is to reduce CO2 emissions. Yes, it makes good sense to walk, cycle or use public transport if you can, but sometimes you need a car. It's those cases we're talking about.
Isn't the argument diminished when you look at the CO2 emissions over the whole life of the car (from being built through to its recycling?). We had a petrol toyota until recently, which ran with no problems at all, did 40+ mpg and would continue to run for another 14 years as it was so well built. The idea being pushed that it should be scrapped for environmental reasons was nonsensical. We sold it because it was too large and wanted a smaller car.
It's not controversial to say that walking or (e-)biking is best, or that the environmental benefits of early scrappage are dubious. But lots of people (a) don't live somewhere where they can manage without driving (e.g. it would take me 45 minutes to walk to a supermarket from where I live, and then have to carry the stuff home) and (b) need to change their cars. The environmental case for switching to at least a hybrid is then very strong and it's mainly the price factor that's the problem.
The appropriate OMG reaction to the IPCC report contrasts with the very considerable reluctance of most individuals to do more than token gestures if it will cost money. I do think that we need to be government-led on this, with a serious national spread of high-speed chargers (otherwise people who live in flats are basically unable to take part) and a mixture of seriously high road tax for ICE cars and masively subsidised road tax for electric. It needs to be made worth individuals' while to change - hoping everyone will do it out of concern for the planet won't work. Which is not to say we shouldn't try individually.
Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ? And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.
There is some validity in continuing to run an old vehicle on the basis of carbon cost of manufacture. I run my 13 year old 100 000 mile Fiat 500 for this reason, but it will be my last ICE vehicle. My electric Kia is so much better as a vehicle, from both performance and economy reasons. Charging really isn't a hassle, and it does nearly 300 miles on a charge, which is as far as I ever want to drive without a break. It does the 180 miles to the IoW very comfortably when Mrs Foxy goes there every month to see her mum.
The air pollution from older diesels is appalling though, quite apart from the carbon dioxide production. Air pollution from road vehicles causes many deaths per year.
Commercial, agricultural and marine vehicles present real problems, but for cars? It is right to ban diesel cars. Having someone who doesn't understand this as spokesperson shows how tin earned this government is.
Leisure marine is a good fit for electric. I was going to spend 1700 on an epropulsion outboard for a boat I've just bought on the ground that the petrol equivalent would be 800 but you make back the difference in servicing costs in 3 years. Sadly, sort of, it came with a good petrol job thrown in
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.
In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.
I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.
If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.
Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house. Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
Depends on the car. You can charge new Skodas off the mains, for instance, the Octavia hybrid.
All EVs I have encountered can charge from UK mains via a standard plug. They all seem to come with a bag of adapters for the various charging systems.
OK for trickle charging overnight.
I’d be surprised if all the newer ones can’t. Some of the older ones I think it’s different.
I’m with Allegra and you Mike. I’m in the “not convinced” category, in the “far from convinced” sub-category.
Some concerns: - the ICE is a fantastic, proven technology - electrical transmission is inefficient: you lose a lot of the generated energy in the cables etc - battery production and destruction is an environmental nightmare - working conditions of the African miners digging out the raw components for batteries - governments have a proven track record of backing technological donkeys (cf Concorde, Scotland-Ireland bridge, nuclear weapons systems, overuse of antibiotics, zeppelins, the Great Leap Forward, Chernobyl/Windscale/Long Island, Defence Information Infrastructure, NHS National Program for IT etc etc etc) - why does everybody have to have a car? What’s wrong with bikes and public transport, or - the horror - just walking?
We currently have 3 petrol cars, one of which is going to an elderly relative when our eldest manages (finally) to get back to university in Scotland. The other two will be getting replaced within 6-18 months. The one my wife chooses will be EV, probably a Mini with bloody Yoonyun Jacks all over it. The one I choose definitely won’t be an EV, and definitely won’t have Yoonyun Jacks all over it.
I’m with you all the way on electric bikes for the elderly and unfit: a fantastic way to keep active. BUT not for the younger and fitter: working up a sweat on an old fashioned push bike is good for you (and never take a lift either you lazy slobs!)
I got a free try of an electric bike at work a few years ago. I think I had it for a year. Everybody loved it. The only problem was it was so damn heavy I could barely lift it over styles and boggy bits at our local nature reserve, which I like to cycle round. Ridiculously heavy in fact.
I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.
In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.
I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.
If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.
Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious. It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.
Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
One can still buy roll films and 35mm. Seem to be expensive though. And, for some reason, I understand that old film cameras, such as the Brownie, are 'collectables'.
Which is why the best of the current generation of cars, are going to be collectible in future.
At least that’s my excuse for buying a nice car, albeit a used one.
The real value now are the last of the naturally aspirated monsters from about 2000-2010 so M156 engined Mercs, S62/S85 engined BMWs and 3.6 997s. That era was 'peak ICE' in my opinion and are better long term ownership propositions than more modern turbos/hybrids.
I was listening to a bunch of journalists having a discussion on ‘peak car’ the other day. The one they came up with was the 2010 997.2 GT3RS. Bonus points if you can find the 4.0 rather than the 3.8.
I sort of agree and would like one (understatement) but what can you do with it? You can't track day it in case some knob end in a Cupra Turbo runs into the back of you (voice of experience). It costs a fortune to turn it into a race car which devalues it and no PDK which compromises its track performance. They are terrible road cars. So all you can really do is sit in it in the garage and have a wank. Which is great but I think I'd rather sink my money into a something a bit less precious for track use and/or something that's a better road car like a 997 Turbo.
I'm not a car person, so the only bit of that I understood was the unsavoury image of you in your garage.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I drove a plug in hybrid for 5 years and now for the last 2 years a full EV. If you can afford one, and have off road home charging, then they are easy to live with. Charging infrastructure is improving all the time and a major problem, Ecotricity at motorway services, is now undergoing a massive improvement by Gridserve. I charge overnight at 5p/unit, this equates to about 1.5p/mile, and I can easily charge 300 miles per week at this low rate. Finally, there is no going back, once you have driven one, you realise how good they are, instant torque, which is very addictive,and very quiet. I have an order in for a Kia EV6, the Koreans will dominate this market.
My only regret with the eNiro is that the EV6 is a better car. Kia build quality is something else, far better than any other car that I have owned, British, European or Japanese. The days when they were a down market bargain alternative are long gone.
I would love to change to an EV, but I live in a terraced house with no off street parking, so I couldn't take advantage of the overnight. I would have to charge at a local charger every other day or something. I think at my age I will be running my driving years out in a diesel I'm afraid.
Yes, the infrastructure is going to be the biggest challenge of the next few years.
Some London boroughs are installing chargers on lamp posts, intended for overnight use so need only be 32A or so. There is some headroom as they change the lights themselves over to LEDs.
Supermarkets and malls are adding chargers all the time, but if we are all going to drive EV there will need to be a lot more of them!
The lamp post thing can be rolled out to anywhere that has lampposts - as they change over to LED, as part of a rolling replacement program.
The real work is installing the high speed chargers to replace/supplant petrol pumps - which is accelerating at the moment.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
This is it.
EVs are not the right option for everyone, right now. We'll be replacing main car in a couple of years, I doubt the next will be EV, but I'll think about it. I expect our next car to be our last ICE.
We may also buy a second car for my commute (ditched the second in lockdown as no commute, I'm going to try cycling it). If we get a second car for that purpose it will be an EV or a plug in hybrid with enough range to do that journey on electric (I can also plug in at work, if needed).
I’m with Allegra and you Mike. I’m in the “not convinced” category, in the “far from convinced” sub-category.
Some concerns: - the ICE is a fantastic, proven technology - electrical transmission is inefficient: you lose a lot of the generated energy in the cables etc - battery production and destruction is an environmental nightmare - working conditions of the African miners digging out the raw components for batteries - governments have a proven track record of backing technological donkeys (cf Concorde, Scotland-Ireland bridge, nuclear weapons systems, overuse of antibiotics, zeppelins, the Great Leap Forward, Chernobyl/Windscale/Long Island, Defence Information Infrastructure, NHS National Program for IT etc etc etc) - why does everybody have to have a car? What’s wrong with bikes and public transport, or - the horror - just walking?
We currently have 3 petrol cars, one of which is going to an elderly relative when our eldest manages (finally) to get back to university in Scotland. The other two will be getting replaced within 6-18 months. The one my wife chooses will be EV, probably a Mini with bloody Yoonyun Jacks all over it. The one I choose definitely won’t be an EV, and definitely won’t have Yoonyun Jacks all over it.
I’m with you all the way on electric bikes for the elderly and unfit: a fantastic way to keep active. BUT not for the younger and fitter: working up a sweat on an old fashioned push bike is good for you (and never take a lift either you lazy slobs!)
I got a free try of an electric bike at work a few years ago. I think I had it for a year. Everybody loved it. The only problem was it was so damn heavy I could barely lift it over styles and boggy bits at our local nature reserve, which I like to cycle round. Ridiculously heavy in fact.
Electricity transmission has become much more efficient - the old green myths that 60% is lost in transmission etc are just that. Myths.
When you factor in the efficiency of the electric power train in the car, the well-to-wheels* efficiency of EVs is impressive.
Most governments backed hydrogen - because that allows controlling and taxing road usage, later on, more easily. EVs are not what they wanted.
*Factors in everything from the creation of the energy supply to the rubber on the road. Alot of comparisons of ICE and EVs leave out, for example the energy/CO2 in refining and transporting the petrol to the petrol station.
I noticed you had been off topiced whilst discussing on topic. I am not sure some people have got the hang of it yet.
Although on a mobile, fat fingers can accidentally hit the wrong button, but with care that is easily correctable.
I recently needed to change my car. Due to high daily mileages an EV is out of the question. I researched a nearly new Mercedes Benz C class PHEV but the plug in capability was circa 20 miles. Mercedes claimed 30, owners claimed 20. So utterly pointless. In the end I found a low mileage 19 plate BMW 320d Efficient Dynamics Tourer. The mpg figure is way better than my previous Hyundai i40 and that was very good. So when range is still an issue a Euro cat 6 oil burner still fits the bill.
The cricket T20 World Cup is in November. The last two Grands Prix are in December which might be too late for Lewis Hamilton.
Olympics:- Jason Kenny: Britain's most successful Olympian Laura Kenny: Britain's most successful female Olympian Charlotte Dujardin: level with LK on number of medals but fewer golds Adam Peaty: first British swimmer to defend an Olympic title Duncan Scott: most medals at one Olympics
(ht Racing Post and Daily Telegraph)
Any chance the BBC "bundle" the Kenny's? So, Jason & Laura Kenny win SPoTY?
Anything is possible but it seems unlikely. Could the BBC shortlist one without the other? The cycling vote could be badly split. Could one drop out to maximise the other's chance? Again, it seems unlikely: Tyson Fury tried but was nominated anyway. My advice is probably to wait and see who is nominated.
What the BBC could do is make the cyclists Team of the Year which might reduce the votes for the main award, although I'd expect that to go to the England football team. It's all just speculation.
And it is not just SPotY. We might also be able to bet what gongs will be dished out in the New Year Honours, assuming Boris does not bring forward a special Olympics honours list to coincide with the party conference season.
As @StuartDickson told us, Tom Daley has taken over favouritism from Jason Kenny. Fwiw, the Telegraph reported Tom was the most popular of the returning Olympians, at least at the airport, and he will be auctioning the Olympic cardigan he knitted to raise money for (or rather against) brain tumours.
Current best prices:
Daley 5/2 J Kenny 3/1 Peaty 13/1 L Kenny 31/2 (and drifting) Hamilton 16/1 Cavendish 19/1 Johnson-Thompson 22/1 Whitlock 22/1 Brownlee 40/1 50 bar
I’m with Allegra and you Mike. I’m in the “not convinced” category, in the “far from convinced” sub-category.
Some concerns: - the ICE is a fantastic, proven technology - electrical transmission is inefficient: you lose a lot of the generated energy in the cables etc - battery production and destruction is an environmental nightmare - working conditions of the African miners digging out the raw components for batteries - governments have a proven track record of backing technological donkeys (cf Concorde, Scotland-Ireland bridge, nuclear weapons systems, overuse of antibiotics, zeppelins, the Great Leap Forward, Chernobyl/Windscale/Long Island, Defence Information Infrastructure, NHS National Program for IT etc etc etc) - why does everybody have to have a car? What’s wrong with bikes and public transport, or - the horror - just walking?
We currently have 3 petrol cars, one of which is going to an elderly relative when our eldest manages (finally) to get back to university in Scotland. The other two will be getting replaced within 6-18 months. The one my wife chooses will be EV, probably a Mini with bloody Yoonyun Jacks all over it. The one I choose definitely won’t be an EV, and definitely won’t have Yoonyun Jacks all over it.
I’m with you all the way on electric bikes for the elderly and unfit: a fantastic way to keep active. BUT not for the younger and fitter: working up a sweat on an old fashioned push bike is good for you (and never take a lift either you lazy slobs!)
I got a free try of an electric bike at work a few years ago. I think I had it for a year. Everybody loved it. The only problem was it was so damn heavy I could barely lift it over styles and boggy bits at our local nature reserve, which I like to cycle round. Ridiculously heavy in fact.
Good post but not the bit about the elderly and unfit on electric bikes. Of even many of the middle aged. Just is not going to happen and picture it yourself. Wholly impractical. I do a lot of cycling and have seen for example the attempt of LTNs to force more people onto their feet and bikes. But for a non-trivial proportion, perhaps a majority of the population cycling is just never going to happen. The physicality of it, the exposure to the weather, the strain of having to pay attention to every other road user, the lack of oomph when it comes to traffic situations, the danger, and more besides.
It is a fantasy. In the Netherlands I'm guessing (from observation) that the average age of cyclists is no more than 20-25. And understandably so.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
Thing is, she's supposed to be a spokesperson for the government, not a tribune of the people. It's their, and her business to explain how they propose to get from where we are now to where you want to be.
Here we have OGH extolling its virtues with 60+ mpg, but the two Skoda Octavia cars we've had both managed that fine with a late 90s diesel engine.
80mpg and I'd be impressed, but 60mpg does not look like progress.
My Octavia could, in its heyday, do 75mpg from Gloucester to Cambridge. You could get 80+ out of it if you drove for absolute fuel economy.
Sadly it declined somewhat towards the end when the electrics started to wear out and the engine management system failed. It’s one reason why I scrapped it.
But it was a damn good car. I don’t think any EV I own will match it for its service over the 12 years I had it.
We now run an Ioniq EV and an Outlander PHEV. Full EV for all the shorter trips, hybrid for longer runs where long charge stops would make the long trip unviable or where the charging infrastructure is missing. Up here a vehicle with ground clearance is a Good Idea and I use both that feature and the huge internal load space regularly. If someone wants to build a full-size EV SUV and install a glut of hyper chargers, I'm interested.
But PHEVs will be banned by 2030, won't they? So what will you do then?
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Good post but not the bit about the elderly and unfit on electric bikes. Of even many of the middle aged. Just is not going to happen and picture it yourself. Wholly impractical. I do a lot of cycling and have seen for example the attempt of LTNs to force more people onto their feet and bikes. But for a non-trivial proportion, perhaps a majority of the population cycling is just never going to happen. The physicality of it, the exposure to the weather, the strain of having to pay attention to every other road user, the lack of oomph when it comes to traffic situations, the danger, and more besides.
It is a fantasy. In the Netherlands I'm guessing (from observation) that the average age of cyclists is no more than 20-25. And understandably so.
I agree for myself - my over-protective parents never let me cycle in a city (even the bike-friendly Copenhagen) and I never learned - seems too late and too undsafe (balance issues) to start now. That said, it really is pretty universal over there - we used to know an elderly Supreme Court judge who cycled to the court every day and just thought this was normal.
Essentially people have to do what they can as individuals, taking into account their circumstances but also being willing to put up with some inconvenience and to avoid easy excuses which come down to doing nothing. And if we see the effort's being made, it's important not to be scornful of people for not doing something different.
We now run an Ioniq EV and an Outlander PHEV. Full EV for all the shorter trips, hybrid for longer runs where long charge stops would make the long trip unviable or where the charging infrastructure is missing. Up here a vehicle with ground clearance is a Good Idea and I use both that feature and the huge internal load space regularly. If someone wants to build a full-size EV SUV and install a glut of hyper chargers, I'm interested.
But PHEVs will be banned by 2030, won't they? So what will you do then?
Surely it’s only the sales of new ones that will be banned, not hybrids per se?
The charging infrastructure is so far away at the moment, the majority of people do not have a driveway. Look at the queues at petrol stations and that takes a couple of minutes to fill up. We will need hundreds of thousands of charging stations over the next few years. Is that going to happen?
Also will there be enough electricity. At the moment there are few full electric cars, imagine the spike in demand with million of electric cars on charge all the time.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
Thing is, she's supposed to be a spokesperson for the government, not a tribune of the people. It's their, and her business to explain how they propose to get from where we are now to where you want to be.
I didn't see her comments. Did she not do that? She said, reasonably, that she preferred a diesel car today. Did she say for now and evermore? I haven't looked.
Plus can people please lose the "lampost charging" fantasy.
Lamposts are on streets which either have yellow lines or cars parked beside them. They are not dedicated charging stations, which is what is needed. There will need to be such dedicated bays up and down the country. Every or close to every current pay & display space will have to have access to a charger.
At present I reckon around 0.01% of them are such.
This is a huge infrastructure project that I don't see the government addressing now or perhaps for the next decade.
We now run an Ioniq EV and an Outlander PHEV. Full EV for all the shorter trips, hybrid for longer runs where long charge stops would make the long trip unviable or where the charging infrastructure is missing. Up here a vehicle with ground clearance is a Good Idea and I use both that feature and the huge internal load space regularly. If someone wants to build a full-size EV SUV and install a glut of hyper chargers, I'm interested.
But PHEVs will be banned by 2030, won't they? So what will you do then?
Surely it’s only the sales of new ones that will be banned, not hybrids per se?
Well, yes, but that's true for regular ICEs too. Point is, how many people own only pure electric vehicles? That's the true test of the situation.
Oh, I seem to have wandered into the comments section of Car magazine. Poop-poop, toodle-oo boys.
The proposed re-engineering of our entire energy and transport systems is perhaps a matter of political debate ?
It is. When is the politics coming into it?
I've been trying to suggest that there is a realistic roadmap to 100% EVs. It's a massive opportunity for government to encourage new industries and plan how the nation might benefit economically from the transition. I'd argue that so far we've been pretty poor at that.
European car manufacturers are making eyewatering investments into EV. AIRC over the next five years or so: Renault €16 billlion; Stellantis, BMW, Mercedes €30 billion a piece; VW nearly €60 billion. They will be in trouble if that bet goes wrong.
The UK's remaining opportunities post-Brexit are in niches. There is a decent medium term niche for UK automotive in ICE, including exports to places without the charging infrastructure, as the rest of Europe disinvests. Not very green however.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace. For a new vehicle the argument for EVs is strong but a large proportion of people wouldn't consider buying a new car particularly as they have significantly risen in price in recent years. The demand for used cars is growing and EV's are >2% of this.
I do not buy the saving the world argument at all. The benefits of EVs are simply to do with air quality and possibly noise. However. there is nothing at all virtuous about driving a 1.5 ton lump of metal 1 mile to work or school. When you think about it, it is absurd. Walk, cycle or get an electric scooter.
The fundamental reason for replacing ICEs with EVs is to reduce CO2 emissions. Yes, it makes good sense to walk, cycle or use public transport if you can, but sometimes you need a car. It's those cases we're talking about.
Isn't the argument diminished when you look at the CO2 emissions over the whole life of the car (from being built through to its recycling?). We had a petrol toyota until recently, which ran with no problems at all, did 40+ mpg and would continue to run for another 14 years as it was so well built. The idea being pushed that it should be scrapped for environmental reasons was nonsensical. We sold it because it was too large and wanted a smaller car.
It's not controversial to say that walking or (e-)biking is best, or that the environmental benefits of early scrappage are dubious. But lots of people (a) don't live somewhere where they can manage without driving (e.g. it would take me 45 minutes to walk to a supermarket from where I live, and then have to carry the stuff home) and (b) need to change their cars. The environmental case for switching to at least a hybrid is then very strong and it's mainly the price factor that's the problem.
The appropriate OMG reaction to the IPCC report contrasts with the very considerable reluctance of most individuals to do more than token gestures if it will cost money. I do think that we need to be government-led on this, with a serious national spread of high-speed chargers (otherwise people who live in flats are basically unable to take part) and a mixture of seriously high road tax for ICE cars and masively subsidised road tax for electric. It needs to be made worth individuals' while to change - hoping everyone will do it out of concern for the planet won't work. Which is not to say we shouldn't try individually.
New vehicles are ok, but the point where government raise taxes on old second hand ICE vehicles is the point where they face a popular revolt - because the majority of ordinary people need them and rely on them. This green obsession is still really a minority middle class issue.
It is better to just find ways of getting people out of their cars. I am convinced that 90% of journeys around my town could be done on electric scooters. I have an e-bike but will happily swap it for an e-scooter once it is legal. Small scale light EV's with load carrying capacity could be developed for things like shopping. This would work for journeys up to several miles, ie nearly all local commuting. In the meantime my adapted mountain bike can carry a child and some freight. When will people see the light?
I’m with Allegra and you Mike. I’m in the “not convinced” category, in the “far from convinced” sub-category.
Some concerns: - the ICE is a fantastic, proven technology - electrical transmission is inefficient: you lose a lot of the generated energy in the cables etc - battery production and destruction is an environmental nightmare - working conditions of the African miners digging out the raw components for batteries - governments have a proven track record of backing technological donkeys (cf Concorde, Scotland-Ireland bridge, nuclear weapons systems, overuse of antibiotics, zeppelins, the Great Leap Forward, Chernobyl/Windscale/Long Island, Defence Information Infrastructure, NHS National Program for IT etc etc etc) - why does everybody have to have a car? What’s wrong with bikes and public transport, or - the horror - just walking?
We currently have 3 petrol cars, one of which is going to an elderly relative when our eldest manages (finally) to get back to university in Scotland. The other two will be getting replaced within 6-18 months. The one my wife chooses will be EV, probably a Mini with bloody Yoonyun Jacks all over it. The one I choose definitely won’t be an EV, and definitely won’t have Yoonyun Jacks all over it.
I’m with you all the way on electric bikes for the elderly and unfit: a fantastic way to keep active. BUT not for the younger and fitter: working up a sweat on an old fashioned push bike is good for you (and never take a lift either you lazy slobs!)
I got a free try of an electric bike at work a few years ago. I think I had it for a year. Everybody loved it. The only problem was it was so damn heavy I could barely lift it over styles and boggy bits at our local nature reserve, which I like to cycle round. Ridiculously heavy in fact.
Good post but not the bit about the elderly and unfit on electric bikes. Of even many of the middle aged. Just is not going to happen and picture it yourself. Wholly impractical. I do a lot of cycling and have seen for example the attempt of LTNs to force more people onto their feet and bikes. But for a non-trivial proportion, perhaps a majority of the population cycling is just never going to happen. The physicality of it, the exposure to the weather, the strain of having to pay attention to every other road user, the lack of oomph when it comes to traffic situations, the danger, and more besides.
It is a fantasy. In the Netherlands I'm guessing (from observation) that the average age of cyclists is no more than 20-25. And understandably so.
Fair call. I’m forgetting just how dangerous it is to cycle in my native Edinburgh, and on many country roads where I am in the Highlands (between sheep, speeding HGVs and cyclists I’m amazed I haven’t had an accident).
In Sweden we cyclists are totally spoilt: separate wide safe cycle paths nearly everywhere. I suppose the key difference is space. Population density is low and we have land coming out our ears.
Mind you, from observation I would say that the average age of a cyclist in both Scotland and Sweden is over 22.5. Someone doubtless has statistics.
We've not said much about public transport, but that's another area where vigorous public investment does make a huge difference. I didn't have a car in London - public transport was generally fine and faster than driving, and the cost of parking near my block of flats was simply prohibitive, with Islington Council explicitly refusing planning permission for parking in new blocks (including the one where I was living). And I actually like driving in cities, so I was being nudged out of it, and didn't really mind.
My Toyota Hybrid has a range of 500 miles plus. Last time we had a French holiday we got from just north of the Spanish border to Calais on petrol stop.
See this isn't very impressive. We managed 700 miles in our Octavia estate once on a single tank.
I'm glad the fully electric cars are improving so quickly because hybrids look like they're a mess.
I recently sold my beloved Audi A1 diesel, 10 years old, in great condition for age, 85k on the clock, for a paltry £3.3k. Someone got a bargain I think.
Good post but not the bit about the elderly and unfit on electric bikes. Of even many of the middle aged. Just is not going to happen and picture it yourself. Wholly impractical. I do a lot of cycling and have seen for example the attempt of LTNs to force more people onto their feet and bikes. But for a non-trivial proportion, perhaps a majority of the population cycling is just never going to happen. The physicality of it, the exposure to the weather, the strain of having to pay attention to every other road user, the lack of oomph when it comes to traffic situations, the danger, and more besides.
It is a fantasy. In the Netherlands I'm guessing (from observation) that the average age of cyclists is no more than 20-25. And understandably so.
I agree for myself - my over-protective parents never let me cycle in a city (even the bike-friendly Copenhagen) and I never learned - seems too late and too undsafe (balance issues) to start now. That said, it really is pretty universal over there - we used to know an elderly Supreme Court judge who cycled to the court every day and just thought this was normal.
Essentially people have to do what they can as individuals, taking into account their circumstances but also being willing to put up with some inconvenience and to avoid easy excuses which come down to doing nothing. And if we see the effort's being made, it's important not to be scornful of people for not doing something different.
I am super not scornful of a sedentary 60-yr old who is "told" that he must now get on a bicycle, buy the requisite clothing, puncture repair, wet weather kit, lights, lock, get insurance and go about his business as before.
Because that is not going to happen no matter how much they care about the planet.
There need to be realistic expectations. Getting everyone out of their cars and to start cycling is not one of them.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
Here we have OGH extolling its virtues with 60+ mpg, but the two Skoda Octavia cars we've had both managed that fine with a late 90s diesel engine.
80mpg and I'd be impressed, but 60mpg does not look like progress.
My Octavia could, in its heyday, do 75mpg from Gloucester to Cambridge. You could get 80+ out of it if you drove for absolute fuel economy.
Sadly it declined somewhat towards the end when the electrics started to wear out and the engine management system failed. It’s one reason why I scrapped it.
But it was a damn good car. I don’t think any EV I own will match it for its service over the 12 years I had it.
Interesting - my Fabia is approaching the end of it's 20 year life and I am looking at something a bit roomier - mainly city driving and the occasional 200 mile trip to pick up relatives - given this is likely the last car I will own, wondering about the Octavia PHEV vs the ICE versions...and then there's the Superb.....
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars?
The Taycan is about the same as any other Porsche at the dealer at about 1,200 quid. You only have to have it done every two years though.
Forgive my ignorance but do electric cars have gears? If not, and if I were to be convinced that gearless cars will be standard soon, then why is my daughter* bothering to learn to drive in a manual?
(*She narrowly failed a practice theory test this week (85% pass mark required!) and one of the questions she got wrong was about a situation involving a milk float. She doesn't know what a milk float is. Why would she FFS - she's 17 and never seen one in her life.)
I recently sold my beloved Audi A1 diesel, 10 years old, in great condition for age, 85k on the clock, for a paltry £3.3k. Someone got a bargain I think.
Mine is completely unsellable, mainly due to my other half running the side of it along the gates to our drive but it passed it's last MOT with no advisories. So I'm just running it out. 120,000 miles on the clock now.
Here we have OGH extolling its virtues with 60+ mpg, but the two Skoda Octavia cars we've had both managed that fine with a late 90s diesel engine.
80mpg and I'd be impressed, but 60mpg does not look like progress.
Firstly you shouldn't compare petrol hybrid with diesel - diesel is more energy dense (i.e. intrinsically more energy per litre (or gallon). I drive a petrol hydrid. All electric drive, with petrol charging the batteries. Has the advantages of electic drive (simple, no gears, good characteristics) but no range anxiety. I am getting a reported 62 mpg on a Yaris on a standard 17 mile, hilly commute. That drops in winter. I used to drive an Aygo, all petrol. Quite fuel efficient (sy up to 58 mpg at best) but the car had no frills, was small, lacked oomph. the current Yaris is nice, has oomph and space (not huge amounts, but enough to two adults and a hound). It is a con really though - it is just a more efficient petrol car.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars?
The Taycan is about the same as any other Porsche at the dealer at about 1,200 quid. You only have to have it done every two years though.
Forgive my ignorance but do electric cars have gears? If not, and if I were to be convinced that gearless cars will be standard soon, then why is my daughter* bothering to learn to drive in a manual?
(*She narrowly failed a practice theory test this week (85% pass mark required!) and one of the questions she got wrong was about a situation involving a milk float. She doesn't know what a milk float is. Why would she FFS - she's 17 and never seen one in her life.)
Most don't. The Porsche Taycan (and Audi e-tron GT) have two speed PDK transmissions which is inapparent to the driver in use.
I think there was some mad Chinese BEV car that has a CVT too but I can't remember the name.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
My friend visited the other day in his new car, a £85k Audi electric car. He didn't cough up £85k though, he leases it.
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
Here we have OGH extolling its virtues with 60+ mpg, but the two Skoda Octavia cars we've had both managed that fine with a late 90s diesel engine.
80mpg and I'd be impressed, but 60mpg does not look like progress.
My Octavia could, in its heyday, do 75mpg from Gloucester to Cambridge. You could get 80+ out of it if you drove for absolute fuel economy.
Sadly it declined somewhat towards the end when the electrics started to wear out and the engine management system failed. It’s one reason why I scrapped it.
But it was a damn good car. I don’t think any EV I own will match it for its service over the 12 years I had it.
Interesting - my Fabia is approaching the end of it's 20 year life and I am looking at something a bit roomier - mainly city driving and the occasional 200 mile trip to pick up relatives - given this is likely the last car I will own, wondering about the Octavia PHEV vs the ICE versions...and then there's the Superb.....
Don’t get a top of the range models if you go down that route. Everything in them has been electrified and that’s the key weakness in a Skoda. Go for one at the lower end.
The snag is, I doubt if you can get a hybrid at the lower end of the range.
I credit Tesla for making electric cars desirable to the general population, but in my view most current EVs, in particular Tesla, are massively overengineered.
EVs are the ideal vehicle for the suburbs, where 90% probably of all journeys are made. Electric motors have plenty of torque, which means you get decent performance on a low power motor up to about 50mph, which are the speeds you are going at in the suburbs. Electric motors are also smaller than the ICEs they replace. The way forward, I think is slightly smaller cars, matched to smaller motors and smaller batteries. Batteries are why EVs are more expensive than their ICE equivalents. By making them smaller, you make the car more affordable, lighter, quicker to charge and with more range per KWH, enough for a week's normal use.
Then you try to make the remaining 10% of journeys acceptable, but no more. This takes a change in mindset.
We don't even have the vaccine programme anymore. Is there anything the UK got right during COVID
Still mystified as to why this stupid argument keeps being made. If New Zealand overtakes us in a year or so will that be proof that our vaccine programme was not even better than there’s? Even leaving aside the fact that we are (currently) choosing to make eligible a lower proportion of the population.
I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.
In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.
I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.
If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.
Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house. Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
Depends on the car. You can charge new Skodas off the mains, for instance, the Octavia hybrid.
Thanks. Skoda dealer rather talked me out of an electric when I bought a new Fabia not long ago
BTW, hope you’re grandson’s A-level results are OK, although this year there shouldn’t really be any surprises. Did he decide where he wanted to go?
Yes, thank you. Been away from computer for celebratory phone calls (and breakfast). 2A, B & C. Off the Manchester to read history. They wanted AAB so, as I said to him 'That's it. Onward and upward!'
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
Thing is, she's supposed to be a spokesperson for the government, not a tribune of the people. It's their, and her business to explain how they propose to get from where we are now to where you want to be.
I didn't see her comments. Did she not do that? She said, reasonably, that she preferred a diesel car today. Did she say for now and evermore? I haven't looked.
Plus can people please lose the "lampost charging" fantasy.
Lamposts are on streets which either have yellow lines or cars parked beside them. They are not dedicated charging stations, which is what is needed. There will need to be such dedicated bays up and down the country. Every or close to every current pay & display space will have to have access to a charger.
At present I reckon around 0.01% of them are such.
This is a huge infrastructure project that I don't see the government addressing now or perhaps for the next decade.
Absolutely! The average person will not buy an EV is they have nowhere to charge it.
This reminds me of the get rid of boilers nonsense and the replace them with an Air/Ground Sourced Heat Pump. This will simply not happen as the vast majority of people do not have a Plant Room in their house to put all the required equipment in, (and ASHP will not warm a normal house very effectively)
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
My friend visited the other day in his new car, a £85k Audi electric car. He didn't cough up £85k though, he leases it.
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
For sure. And even for "ordinary" people a monthly lease amount in the hundreds of pounds is much more digestible than the upfront cost of the car they want.
We don't even have the vaccine programme anymore. Is there anything the UK got right during COVID
The Gov't has made it very clear the risk between being vaccinated and getting Covid is very close if you're 16-18 years old so why bother to take time out your day to get vaccinated. In terms of over 50 demographic uptake though, we're amongst the very best in the world mind. And that's the critical one for deaths.
So you're half right. And the half the Gov't got right is the important half. Thank goodness.
Oh, I seem to have wandered into the comments section of Car magazine. Poop-poop, toodle-oo boys.
The proposed re-engineering of our entire energy and transport systems is perhaps a matter of political debate ?
It is. When is the politics coming into it?
I've been trying to suggest that there is a realistic roadmap to 100% EVs. It's a massive opportunity for government to encourage new industries and plan how the nation might benefit economically from the transition. I'd argue that so far we've been pretty poor at that.
Looks to me like you want a bit of dirigism from the government. Isn't the announcement to ban internal combustion engines by 2030 the right way to encourage suppliers and consumers to adapt in good time? And yes, there is a public good element in the infrastructure needed, but with sufficient early warning having been given, the market will sort out the necessary. Another role for government is the need for planning laws to to adapt to facilitate the adoption of new technology and infrastructure. On public procurement I notice in our local hospital that the NHS supplies charging points and plenty of EVs for staff use.
We've not said much about public transport, but that's another area where vigorous public investment does make a huge difference. I didn't have a car in London - public transport was generally fine and faster than driving, and the cost of parking near my block of flats was simply prohibitive, with Islington Council explicitly refusing planning permission for parking in new blocks (including the one where I was living). And I actually like driving in cities, so I was being nudged out of it, and didn't really mind.
They explicitly refused allowing new developments to make provision for parking? That’s crazy! I’ve heard of councils requiring developments to include parking and ban occupants from being eligible for road permits but this is the complete opposite.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars?
The Taycan is about the same as any other Porsche at the dealer at about 1,200 quid. You only have to have it done every two years though.
Forgive my ignorance but do electric cars have gears? If not, and if I were to be convinced that gearless cars will be standard soon, then why is my daughter* bothering to learn to drive in a manual?
(*She narrowly failed a practice theory test this week (85% pass mark required!) and one of the questions she got wrong was about a situation involving a milk float. She doesn't know what a milk float is. Why would she FFS - she's 17 and never seen one in her life.)
Milk float - the original EV!
No gears on most EVs, and those few that do are automatics.
Lol some massive inflation compared to recent cohorts
44% are A* or A (25.2% in 2019). 37.9% of students got three As or better (more than doubled from the 17.9% in 2019).
Totally as a result of the cowardly actions by The government in not resisting pressure to just accepting teacher assessment.The government have destroyed credibilty in the results and therefore the exams
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
My friend visited the other day in his new car, a £85k Audi electric car. He didn't cough up £85k though, he leases it.
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
For sure. And even for "ordinary" people a monthly lease amount in the hundreds of pounds is much more digestible than the upfront cost of the car they want.
Still £6k a year to run a car though. And his wife has a car too. Ouch.
Versus cash buy a £20k petrol or diesel and keep for 10 years = £2k pa depreciation.
We don't even have the vaccine programme anymore. Is there anything the UK got right during COVID
The Gov't has made it very clear the risk between being vaccinated and getting Covid is very close if you're 16-18 years old so why bother to take time out your day to get vaccinated.
I actually think the Government has a lot of blame to take for the low youth take-up. They spent months telling people that once the elderly were done, the young were free to go about their lives.
They did a U-turn at the last minute but the damage was done.
That's quite a big spike for a summer week even allowing for the COVID deaths. I guess it's related to the heat rather than suggesting that there are more COVID deaths than are being picked up in the stats. Of course, some of those who didn't die in the winter from flu may have been picked off in the last couple of weeks.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
Thing is, she's supposed to be a spokesperson for the government, not a tribune of the people. It's their, and her business to explain how they propose to get from where we are now to where you want to be.
I didn't see her comments. Did she not do that? She said, reasonably, that she preferred a diesel car today. Did she say for now and evermore? I haven't looked.
Plus can people please lose the "lampost charging" fantasy.
Lamposts are on streets which either have yellow lines or cars parked beside them. They are not dedicated charging stations, which is what is needed. There will need to be such dedicated bays up and down the country. Every or close to every current pay & display space will have to have access to a charger.
At present I reckon around 0.01% of them are such.
This is a huge infrastructure project that I don't see the government addressing now or perhaps for the next decade.
Absolutely! The average person will not buy an EV is they have nowhere to charge it.
This reminds me of the get rid of boilers nonsense and the replace them with an Air/Ground Sourced Heat Pump. This will simply not happen as the vast majority of people do not have a Plant Room in their house to put all the required equipment in, (and ASHP will not warm a normal house very effectively)
And analagously when was the big "digital radio" switch over? Was supposed to be years ago wasn't it and even now it appears to be some years away. So a decade-plus yet to be fulfilled ambition for radios in cars let alone the cars themselves.
We've not said much about public transport, but that's another area where vigorous public investment does make a huge difference. I didn't have a car in London - public transport was generally fine and faster than driving, and the cost of parking near my block of flats was simply prohibitive, with Islington Council explicitly refusing planning permission for parking in new blocks (including the one where I was living). And I actually like driving in cities, so I was being nudged out of it, and didn't really mind.
They explicitly refused allowing new developments to make provision for parking? That’s crazy! I’ve heard of councils requiring developments to include parking and ban occupants from being eligible for road permits but this is the complete opposite.
Plenty of new developments in London are "no car" developments.
Seems pretty draconian but if you look at some of the building of multi-storey spaces then it makes more sense.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
Thing is, she's supposed to be a spokesperson for the government, not a tribune of the people. It's their, and her business to explain how they propose to get from where we are now to where you want to be.
The point of that though is that there is a difference between where we are now and where we want to be - if there wasn't there'd be no how about it.
If there were no issues with EVs then almost all new vehicle sales would be EV already today. Not in a decades time.
In a decade will we be in a position where all new cars can be electric? Yes, I think so. Are we there yet? No, definitely not.
Lol some massive inflation compared to recent cohorts
44% are A* or A (25.2% in 2019). 37.9% of students got three As or better (more than doubled from the 17.9% in 2019).
Totally as a result of the cowardly actions by The government in not resisting pressure to just accepting teacher assessment.The government have destroyed credibilty in the results and therefore the exams
Yep.
Ofsted designed the best system in the circs last year and got misunderstood and pilloried - and Sturgeon politicked it - and here we are.
Anti-vaxxers protest BBC coverage of pandemic by storming a building in White City. A building the BBC vacated in 2013 and is now luxury flats. Is there a link between stupidity and anti-vax? Opinions vary but evidence is growing …
Who are these idiots? They protested a block of flats, not realising the BBC haven’t used the building for eight years!
I guess they’re the same idiots who don’t want to get vaccinated against a pandemic virus, so maybe that explains a lot!
This is where we need to be a bit careful. It is too easy to say these antivax protesters are idiots while believing their equivalents in Paris are representative of the entire French nation.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
My friend visited the other day in his new car, a £85k Audi electric car. He didn't cough up £85k though, he leases it.
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
Yes, the one group for whom an EV makes a massive amount of sense, are company directors on 40% or 45% marginal income tax rates. Running an £85k EV is the same price as a VW Golf ICE, all things considered.
We now run an Ioniq EV and an Outlander PHEV. Full EV for all the shorter trips, hybrid for longer runs where long charge stops would make the long trip unviable or where the charging infrastructure is missing. Up here a vehicle with ground clearance is a Good Idea and I use both that feature and the huge internal load space regularly. If someone wants to build a full-size EV SUV and install a glut of hyper chargers, I'm interested.
But PHEVs will be banned by 2030, won't they? So what will you do then?
I believe its full fat petrol and diseasal that gets the ban, not hybrids. But by 2030 the charger network will be fit for purpose and battery chemistry will have taken further leap forwards as to make a PHEV an antique.
My comment was based on now. Let me give you my last 2 car purchases as examples.
I started a new job in 2020 - commuting from Teesside to Sheffield several times a week plus business trips up and down the country. The only EV that could remotely do the job was a Tesla, the S was too expensive and the 3 a few months away from launching. My wife already had a hyprid (non-PHEV) which whilst efficient on the motorway was a bit meh.
So I went back to looking at nice cars. BMW have gone mad, Mercedes didn't move me, new Lexus was beautiful but with a Sega Master System infotainment system. So I bought a diesel - having sworn that diseasal was dead I would never touch one again. Volvo S90, bought pre-reg'd at a massive discount in true luxobarge spec.
Then early this year I moved up to Buchan. Big business trips still likely but like everything post-Covid few and far between. Volvo too long and too over-wheeled for these roads, house project meant needed hauling space, so sold it for a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Which is nice enough to sit in for the long trips, is happy being bounced down tracks, has got vast load space, and runs largely on electric up here.
My next car? TBH I can see the Outlander being run into the ground. Mechanically simple, Japanese build quality and reliability, its already a workhorse when needed and long distance family bus when needed and nice exec wafting when needed.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
I was told by some genius on here last month that interest rates are * never* going up again, because… blah blah blah…
Total nonsense of course.
My advice is to avoid getting yourself into (even more) debt, and get out of bloody equities. Cos pretty soon now: Thar She Blows!
The electric car problem is inextricably bound up with the self-driving car problem.
In a nutshell, making enough charge points for our current usage model is impossible in the short to medium term, and difficult even in the long term. The solution is to wait till we have proper self driving cars, which you can summon from a nearby depot, have them take you where you need to go, and then dispatch them back to the depot for recharging. Longer journeys are fine because it's much easier to get lots of charge points installed at service stations, and build a bunch more stations if we have to, and anyway you're supposed to make regular stops when you're driving long distances.
The issue then becomes that true self-driving cars currently look about as far away as they ever have...
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
My friend visited the other day in his new car, a £85k Audi electric car. He didn't cough up £85k though, he leases it.
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
Yes, the one group for whom an EV makes a massive amount of sense, are company directors on 40% or 45% marginal income tax rates. Running an £85k EV is the same price as a VW Golf ICE, all things considered.
And I'm sure he said that Audi and the government (i.e. us) paid 50/50 for the electric point to be installed at his home. Maybe I heard this wrong?
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
Thing is, she's supposed to be a spokesperson for the government, not a tribune of the people. It's their, and her business to explain how they propose to get from where we are now to where you want to be.
I didn't see her comments. Did she not do that? She said, reasonably, that she preferred a diesel car today. Did she say for now and evermore? I haven't looked.
Plus can people please lose the "lampost charging" fantasy.
Lamposts are on streets which either have yellow lines or cars parked beside them. They are not dedicated charging stations, which is what is needed. There will need to be such dedicated bays up and down the country. Every or close to every current pay & display space will have to have access to a charger.
At present I reckon around 0.01% of them are such.
This is a huge infrastructure project that I don't see the government addressing now or perhaps for the next decade.
Absolutely! The average person will not buy an EV is they have nowhere to charge it.
This reminds me of the get rid of boilers nonsense and the replace them with an Air/Ground Sourced Heat Pump. This will simply not happen as the vast majority of people do not have a Plant Room in their house to put all the required equipment in, (and ASHP will not warm a normal house very effectively)
Leaving aside whether some of these things are actually practically possible as opposed to just expensive, I do wonder whether some of these emerging Govt policies are being produced by scientists and others on a “money is no object” basis. With Govt ministers not really understanding the technology and implications before apparently adopting as policy.
Oh, I seem to have wandered into the comments section of Car magazine. Poop-poop, toodle-oo boys.
The proposed re-engineering of our entire energy and transport systems is perhaps a matter of political debate ?
It is. When is the politics coming into it?
I've been trying to suggest that there is a realistic roadmap to 100% EVs. It's a massive opportunity for government to encourage new industries and plan how the nation might benefit economically from the transition. I'd argue that so far we've been pretty poor at that.
Looks to me like you want a bit of dirigism from the government. Isn't the announcement to ban internal combustion engines by 2030 the right way to encourage suppliers and consumers to adapt in good time? And yes, there is a public good element in the infrastructure needed, but with sufficient early warning having been given, the market will sort out the necessary. Another role for government is the need for planning laws to to adapt to facilitate the adoption of new technology and infrastructure. On public procurement I notice in our local hospital that the NHS supplies charging points and plenty of EVs for staff use.
Yes - but most of the cars and much of the new electric infrastructure will be made by overseas manufacturers.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
My friend visited the other day in his new car, a £85k Audi electric car. He didn't cough up £85k though, he leases it.
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
For sure. And even for "ordinary" people a monthly lease amount in the hundreds of pounds is much more digestible than the upfront cost of the car they want.
Still £6k a year to run a car though. And his wife has a car too. Ouch.
Versus cash buy a £20k petrol or diesel and keep for 10 years = £2k pa depreciation.
Not as a company car. If it’s an ICE car, and you’re a higher rate taxpayer, you also have to pay several hundred quid a month in tax for the benefit in kind.
Allegra has a very sensible point for a "long journeys on occasional weekends, and nothing in the week" pattern, but politics does not like sensible points. Love the Mirror describing a diesel golf as a "gas guzzler".
Very interesting programme by Guy Martin trying out electric cars last night on C4. He managed to eject himself out of the back of an electric mountain-bike. And did a Newcastle -> John O Groats and back electric journey in just over 24 hours.
Verdict: they go like stink; buy one now if your journeys are within 50 miles of home; if you drive a 200+ journey a couple of time a week wait 2 years.
I note that pure electric is now 11% of the new market.
IMO it will all be in place sufficiently by 2024-2025.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars?
The Taycan is about the same as any other Porsche at the dealer at about 1,200 quid. You only have to have it done every two years though.
Forgive my ignorance but do electric cars have gears? If not, and if I were to be convinced that gearless cars will be standard soon, then why is my daughter* bothering to learn to drive in a manual?
(*She narrowly failed a practice theory test this week (85% pass mark required!) and one of the questions she got wrong was about a situation involving a milk float. She doesn't know what a milk float is. Why would she FFS - she's 17 and never seen one in her life.)
Milk float - the original EV!
No gears on most EVs, and those few that do are automatics.
A bit of googling reveals my memory was faulty. The CVT EV was American but meanwhile in China BYD make an EV car with a 5 speed manual for driving schools.
I credit Tesla for making electric cars desirable to the general population, but in my view most current EVs, in particular Tesla, are massively overengineered.
EVs are the ideal vehicle for the suburbs, where 90% probably of all journeys are made. Electric motors have plenty of torque, which means you get decent performance on a low power motor up to about 50mph, which are the speeds you are going at in the suburbs. Electric motors are also smaller than the ICEs they replace. The way forward, I think is slightly smaller cars, matched to smaller motors and smaller batteries. Batteries are why EVs are more expensive than their ICE equivalents. By making them smaller, you make the car more affordable, lighter, quicker to charge and with more range per KWH, enough for a week's normal use.
Then you try to make the remaining 10% of journeys acceptable, but no more. This takes a change in mindset.
The engineering doesn't work that way. For a number of years, people tried to build electric cars to reduce the cost of the drive train. Primarily the battery size. The result were short ranged cars with such low performance that they were dangerous to drive on motorways.
The acceleration that modern EVs get is the side effect of a drive trained optimised for general usage - the brutal torque curve of electric motors is a natural feature. For decent range, you need regenerative breaking, for example. Which drives battery size up.
The "genius" in Tesla, was looking at the car conversion industry in LA, where for 200K+ you could have your Porsche made electric, and realising that the real costs in that were the one-off work and the battery. The other key insight is that batteries are dropping in price each year and increasing performance. At the same time.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
I was told by some genius on here last month that interest rates are * never* going up again, because… blah blah blah…
Total nonsense of course.
My advice is to avoid getting yourself into (even more) debt, and get out of bloody equities. Cos pretty soon now: Thar She Blows!
The thing is I've thought the same since last March and have repeatedly got this wrong. With talk of a boom coming out of the pandemic the appetite for equities may yet endure. There is a lot of cash sloshing about looking for a home.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars?
The Taycan is about the same as any other Porsche at the dealer at about 1,200 quid. You only have to have it done every two years though.
Forgive my ignorance but do electric cars have gears? If not, and if I were to be convinced that gearless cars will be standard soon, then why is my daughter* bothering to learn to drive in a manual?
(*She narrowly failed a practice theory test this week (85% pass mark required!) and one of the questions she got wrong was about a situation involving a milk float. She doesn't know what a milk float is. Why would she FFS - she's 17 and never seen one in her life.)
All electric? No, mad Porsche aside. My eldest learned in an auto as what is the point now of learning a stick shift? Once you have a motor as transmission you do not want to go back to a gearbox.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars?
The Taycan is about the same as any other Porsche at the dealer at about 1,200 quid. You only have to have it done every two years though.
Forgive my ignorance but do electric cars have gears? If not, and if I were to be convinced that gearless cars will be standard soon, then why is my daughter* bothering to learn to drive in a manual?
(*She narrowly failed a practice theory test this week (85% pass mark required!) and one of the questions she got wrong was about a situation involving a milk float. She doesn't know what a milk float is. Why would she FFS - she's 17 and never seen one in her life.)
Milk float - the original EV!
No gears on most EVs, and those few that do are automatics.
A bit of googling reveals my memory was faulty. The CVT EV was American but meanwhile in China BYD make an EV car with a 5 speed manual for driving schools.
Ha, didn’t know someone had made a dedicated manual EV. That must be quiet a wierd experience to learn to drive as a novice.
I was thinking more of the guys doing EV conversions of classics, who usually leave the original gearbox in place because it’s easier that way. With a motor that actually stops, the clutch is of course not needed.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
My friend visited the other day in his new car, a £85k Audi electric car. He didn't cough up £85k though, he leases it.
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
For sure. And even for "ordinary" people a monthly lease amount in the hundreds of pounds is much more digestible than the upfront cost of the car they want.
Still £6k a year to run a car though. And his wife has a car too. Ouch.
Versus cash buy a £20k petrol or diesel and keep for 10 years = £2k pa depreciation.
Not as a company car. If it’s an ICE car, and you’re a higher rate taxpayer, you also have to pay several hundred quid a month in tax for the benefit in kind.
Are you sure? I'm sure he said to me that no P11d benefits apply as it is electric.
Lol some massive inflation compared to recent cohorts
44% are A* or A (25.2% in 2019). 37.9% of students got three As or better (more than doubled from the 17.9% in 2019).
Contrast the A level grades this year to the A level grades in 2019 with the GCSE results in 2019 to the GCSE results in 2017.
I do remember being assured last year that is was a one off and allowing teacher assessment wouldn't lead to further massive grade inflation in subsequent years.
My daughter lives in Charminster in Bournemouth. A nice place to live. However there is absolutely no off road parking. The Council have instigated a one way system as with cars parked either side of the road there is only room for one car to pass. There are literally thousands of houses with no off road parking. If they all had electric cars how would they charge them. A charger unit would have to installed for each house, but then there is no guarantee that you could park outside your house. Are we going to have hundreds of cables draped across pavements? And what a laugh it would br for teenagers to unplug the chargers.
The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace....
Simply not true for some battery chemistries. The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Absolutely but as of today and over the next few years (how many? 3-5?) ain't no one hanging around for a 2nd hand Tesla at £30k +/-.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
I'm taken aback by the number of PBers who are prepared to spend £40k+ on a car.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Yep absolutely. £23k out of your bank account is a huge amount and hence people do it on the never never which is of course a ticking time bomb for the govt, interest rate-wise.
My friend visited the other day in his new car, a £85k Audi electric car. He didn't cough up £85k though, he leases it.
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
Yes. Lease payments are pre-tax so -19% off what you pay. Claim half the VAT back. And 1% BIK which is the real win for anyone mad enough still to be on a company car.
Comments
OK for trickle charging overnight.
The appropriate OMG reaction to the IPCC report contrasts with the very considerable reluctance of most individuals to do more than token gestures if it will cost money. I do think that we need to be government-led on this, with a serious national spread of high-speed chargers (otherwise people who live in flats are basically unable to take part) and a mixture of seriously high road tax for ICE cars and masively subsidised road tax for electric. It needs to be made worth individuals' while to change - hoping everyone will do it out of concern for the planet won't work. Which is not to say we shouldn't try individually.
The iron cathode LFP batteries, which are likely to be used in cheaper models (already used in some of Tesla's Chinese cars), have slightly lower performance, but are much more stable, and should last up to a million km.
By the time EVs are fully cost competitive with ICEs, battery life (as well as costs costs) ought to be much less of a concern.
Some concerns:
- the ICE is a fantastic, proven technology
- electrical transmission is inefficient: you lose a lot of the generated energy in the cables etc
- battery production and destruction is an environmental nightmare
- working conditions of the African miners digging out the raw components for batteries
- governments have a proven track record of backing technological donkeys (cf Concorde, Scotland-Ireland bridge, nuclear weapons systems, overuse of antibiotics, zeppelins, the Great Leap Forward, Chernobyl/Windscale/Long Island, Defence Information Infrastructure, NHS National Program for IT etc etc etc)
- why does everybody have to have a car? What’s wrong with bikes and public transport, or - the horror - just walking?
We currently have 3 petrol cars, one of which is going to an elderly relative when our eldest manages (finally) to get back to university in Scotland. The other two will be getting replaced within 6-18 months. The one my wife chooses will be EV, probably a Mini with bloody Yoonyun Jacks all over it. The one I choose definitely won’t be an EV, and definitely won’t have Yoonyun Jacks all over it.
I’m with you all the way on electric bikes for the elderly and unfit: a fantastic way to keep active. BUT not for the younger and fitter: working up a sweat on an old fashioned push bike is good for you (and never take a lift either you lazy slobs!)
I got a free try of an electric bike at work a few years ago. I think I had it for a year. Everybody loved it. The only problem was it was so damn heavy I could barely lift it over styles and boggy bits at our local nature reserve, which I like to cycle round. Ridiculously heavy in fact.
Poop-poop, toodle-oo boys.
I can see a huge amount of inertia in changing to electric and that's aside from the "charging point in every lamp post" fallacy.
Cost and convenience have to change dramatically so Allegra is quite right in what she says. Or would people prefer her to go out and spaff £50k on an electric car and say "come on you lot what's keeping you?"
The real work is installing the high speed chargers to replace/supplant petrol pumps - which is accelerating at the moment.
Call me old fashioned but I like a car where I can open the rear doors if the power fails.
* Not actually self driving, will never be self driving.
EVs are not the right option for everyone, right now. We'll be replacing main car in a couple of years, I doubt the next will be EV, but I'll think about it. I expect our next car to be our last ICE.
We may also buy a second car for my commute (ditched the second in lockdown as no commute, I'm going to try cycling it). If we get a second car for that purpose it will be an EV or a plug in hybrid with enough range to do that journey on electric (I can also plug in at work, if needed).
When you factor in the efficiency of the electric power train in the car, the well-to-wheels* efficiency of EVs is impressive.
Most governments backed hydrogen - because that allows controlling and taxing road usage, later on, more easily. EVs are not what they wanted.
*Factors in everything from the creation of the energy supply to the rubber on the road. Alot of comparisons of ICE and EVs leave out, for example the energy/CO2 in refining and transporting the petrol to the petrol station.
Although on a mobile, fat fingers can accidentally hit the wrong button, but with care that is easily correctable.
I recently needed to change my car. Due to high daily mileages an EV is out of the question. I researched a nearly new Mercedes Benz C class PHEV but the plug in capability was circa 20 miles. Mercedes claimed 30, owners claimed 20. So utterly pointless. In the end I found a low mileage 19 plate BMW 320d Efficient Dynamics Tourer. The mpg figure is way better than my previous Hyundai i40 and that was very good. So when range is still an issue a Euro cat 6 oil burner still fits the bill.
Daley 5/2
J Kenny 3/1
Peaty 13/1
L Kenny 31/2 (and drifting)
Hamilton 16/1
Cavendish 19/1
Johnson-Thompson 22/1
Whitlock 22/1
Brownlee 40/1
50 bar
It is a fantasy. In the Netherlands I'm guessing (from observation) that the average age of cyclists is no more than 20-25. And understandably so.
Here we have OGH extolling its virtues with 60+ mpg, but the two Skoda Octavia cars we've had both managed that fine with a late 90s diesel engine.
80mpg and I'd be impressed, but 60mpg does not look like progress.
It's their, and her business to explain how they propose to get from where we are now to where you want to be.
In my defence:
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Oh, bugger it, I can’t be bothered. Fair call!
Sadly it declined somewhat towards the end when the electrics started to wear out and the engine management system failed. It’s one reason why I scrapped it.
But it was a damn good car. I don’t think any EV I own will match it for its service over the 12 years I had it.
Most I've ever spent is £23k and I agonised over that. That car will last me at least 10 years.
What are the servicing costs involved with electric cars? What about when the batteries need replacing?
Essentially people have to do what they can as individuals, taking into account their circumstances but also being willing to put up with some inconvenience and to avoid easy excuses which come down to doing nothing. And if we see the effort's being made, it's important not to be scornful of people for not doing something different.
Also will there be enough electricity. At the moment there are few full electric cars, imagine the spike in demand with million of electric cars on charge all the time.
Plus can people please lose the "lampost charging" fantasy.
Lamposts are on streets which either have yellow lines or cars parked beside them. They are not dedicated charging stations, which is what is needed. There will need to be such dedicated bays up and down the country. Every or close to every current pay & display space will have to have access to a charger.
At present I reckon around 0.01% of them are such.
This is a huge infrastructure project that I don't see the government addressing now or perhaps for the next decade.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57232252
Reminds me of the Apple battery fiasco a while back.
The UK's remaining opportunities post-Brexit are in niches. There is a decent medium term niche for UK automotive in ICE, including exports to places without the charging infrastructure, as the rest of Europe disinvests. Not very green however.
It is better to just find ways of getting people out of their cars. I am convinced that 90% of journeys around my town could be done on electric scooters. I have an e-bike but will happily swap it for an e-scooter once it is legal. Small scale light EV's with load carrying capacity could be developed for things like shopping. This would work for journeys up to several miles, ie nearly all local commuting. In the meantime my adapted mountain bike can carry a child and some freight. When will people see the light?
In Sweden we cyclists are totally spoilt: separate wide safe cycle paths nearly everywhere. I suppose the key difference is space. Population density is low and we have land coming out our ears.
Mind you, from observation I would say that the average age of a cyclist in both Scotland and Sweden is over 22.5. Someone doubtless has statistics.
I'm glad the fully electric cars are improving so quickly because hybrids look like they're a mess.
Wrong link!
Because that is not going to happen no matter how much they care about the planet.
There need to be realistic expectations. Getting everyone out of their cars and to start cycling is not one of them.
We don't even have the vaccine programme anymore. Is there anything the UK got right during COVID
(*She narrowly failed a practice theory test this week (85% pass mark required!) and one of the questions she got wrong was about a situation involving a milk float. She doesn't know what a milk float is. Why would she FFS - she's 17 and never seen one in her life.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_JdIpo4FAc
It is a con really though - it is just a more efficient petrol car.
I think there was some mad Chinese BEV car that has a CVT too but I can't remember the name.
44% are A* or A (25.2% in 2019). 37.9% of students got three As or better (more than doubled from the 17.9% in 2019).
He runs his own ltd company and the reason he went electric is purely down to government incentives. He reckons that the end cost to him when you factor in the tax breaks and the ability to, in effect, get money efficiently out of his ltd company is under £500pm. A £85k car becomes much more feasible when you look at it like that.
The snag is, I doubt if you can get a hybrid at the lower end of the range.
EVs are the ideal vehicle for the suburbs, where 90% probably of all journeys are made. Electric motors have plenty of torque, which means you get decent performance on a low power motor up to about 50mph, which are the speeds you are going at in the suburbs. Electric motors are also smaller than the ICEs they replace. The way forward, I think is slightly smaller cars, matched to smaller motors and smaller batteries. Batteries are why EVs are more expensive than their ICE equivalents. By making them smaller, you make the car more affordable, lighter, quicker to charge and with more range per KWH, enough for a week's normal use.
Then you try to make the remaining 10% of journeys acceptable, but no more. This takes a change in mindset.
But thanks again for asking.
This reminds me of the get rid of boilers nonsense and the replace them with an Air/Ground Sourced Heat Pump. This will simply not happen as the vast majority of people do not have a Plant Room in their house to put all the required equipment in, (and ASHP will not warm a normal house very effectively)
In terms of over 50 demographic uptake though, we're amongst the very best in the world mind. And that's the critical one for deaths.
So you're half right. And the half the Gov't got right is the important half. Thank goodness.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-58086908
https://order-order.com/2021/08/10/gavin-williamson-forgets-his-a-level-results/
No gears on most EVs, and those few that do are automatics.
Versus cash buy a £20k petrol or diesel and keep for 10 years = £2k pa depreciation.
They did a U-turn at the last minute but the damage was done.
2010: 8,257
2011: 8,456
2012: 8,877
2013: 8,476
2014: 8,965
2015: 8,791
2016: 9,335
2017: 8,882
2018: 9,141
2019: 9,112
2020: 8,891 (217 COVID)
2021: 10,135 (404 COVID)
That's quite a big spike for a summer week even allowing for the COVID deaths. I guess it's related to the heat rather than suggesting that there are more COVID deaths than are being picked up in the stats. Of course, some of those who didn't die in the winter from flu may have been picked off in the last couple of weeks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_JdIpo4FAc
Levelling up now must entail offering the same to elsewhere, not destroying TfL as BoJo wants to do
Seems pretty draconian but if you look at some of the building of multi-storey spaces then it makes more sense.
If there were no issues with EVs then almost all new vehicle sales would be EV already today. Not in a decades time.
In a decade will we be in a position where all new cars can be electric? Yes, I think so. Are we there yet? No, definitely not.
Ofsted designed the best system in the circs last year and got misunderstood and pilloried - and Sturgeon politicked it - and here we are.
Austerity 2.0 here we come, let's damage the economy more! Go Tories whoop whoop!
My comment was based on now. Let me give you my last 2 car purchases as examples.
I started a new job in 2020 - commuting from Teesside to Sheffield several times a week plus business trips up and down the country. The only EV that could remotely do the job was a Tesla, the S was too expensive and the 3 a few months away from launching. My wife already had a hyprid (non-PHEV) which whilst efficient on the motorway was a bit meh.
So I went back to looking at nice cars. BMW have gone mad, Mercedes didn't move me, new Lexus was beautiful but with a Sega Master System infotainment system. So I bought a diesel - having sworn that diseasal was dead I would never touch one again. Volvo S90, bought pre-reg'd at a massive discount in true luxobarge spec.
Then early this year I moved up to Buchan. Big business trips still likely but like everything post-Covid few and far between. Volvo too long and too over-wheeled for these roads, house project meant needed hauling space, so sold it for a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. Which is nice enough to sit in for the long trips, is happy being bounced down tracks, has got vast load space, and runs largely on electric up here.
My next car? TBH I can see the Outlander being run into the ground. Mechanically simple, Japanese build quality and reliability, its already a workhorse when needed and long distance family bus when needed and nice exec wafting when needed.
Total nonsense of course.
My advice is to avoid getting yourself into (even more) debt, and get out of bloody equities. Cos pretty soon now: Thar She Blows!
In a nutshell, making enough charge points for our current usage model is impossible in the short to medium term, and difficult even in the long term. The solution is to wait till we have proper self driving cars, which you can summon from a nearby depot, have them take you where you need to go, and then dispatch them back to the depot for recharging. Longer journeys are fine because it's much easier to get lots of charge points installed at service stations, and build a bunch more stations if we have to, and anyway you're supposed to make regular stops when you're driving long distances.
The issue then becomes that true self-driving cars currently look about as far away as they ever have...
Allegra has a very sensible point for a "long journeys on occasional weekends, and nothing in the week" pattern, but politics does not like sensible points. Love the Mirror describing a diesel golf as a "gas guzzler".
Very interesting programme by Guy Martin trying out electric cars last night on C4. He managed to eject himself out of the back of an electric mountain-bike. And did a Newcastle -> John O Groats and back electric journey in just over 24 hours.
Verdict: they go like stink; buy one now if your journeys are within 50 miles of home; if you drive a 200+ journey a couple of time a week wait 2 years.
I note that pure electric is now 11% of the new market.
IMO it will all be in place sufficiently by 2024-2025.
The acceleration that modern EVs get is the side effect of a drive trained optimised for general usage - the brutal torque curve of electric motors is a natural feature. For decent range, you need regenerative breaking, for example. Which drives battery size up.
The "genius" in Tesla, was looking at the car conversion industry in LA, where for 200K+ you could have your Porsche made electric, and realising that the real costs in that were the one-off work and the battery. The other key insight is that batteries are dropping in price each year and increasing performance. At the same time.
I was thinking more of the guys doing EV conversions of classics, who usually leave the original gearbox in place because it’s easier that way. With a motor that actually stops, the clutch is of course not needed.
I do remember being assured last year that is was a one off and allowing teacher assessment wouldn't lead to further massive grade inflation in subsequent years.