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Allegra Stratton is right to raise questions about EVs – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 10 in General
imageAllegra Stratton is right to raise questions about EVs – politicalbetting.com

Former Newsnight reporter and Number 10 spinner, Allegra Stratton, has caused a bit of a stir by raising questions about the current feasibility of electric cars and the the lack of infrastructure to support them. This has been accentuated by her current role in handling the PR for the Glasgow UN climate change conference. When asked about her getting an electric car she said she didn’t fancy one yet and preferred her diesel Golf.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,907
    Test 1
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited August 10
    Undercover reporters from @AJIUnit try to buy a football club:
    ⚽️ They say they work for a convicted criminal.
    ⚽️ The story should end here.
    ⚽️ It doesn’t.
    ⚽️ Discover how the men #SellingFootball wash dirty money through the beautiful game.
    THREAD 👇🧵 https://t.co/qUy0EWIHPp

    Samuelson also claims Chinese investor, Tony Xia, who bought @AVFCOfficial in 2016 was a front for an unknown investor.

    He says he doesn’t know where his client’s money really came from.
    #SellingFootball https://t.co/5UqE99NwVC

    https://twitter.com/AJIunit/status/1424847506626777096?s=19

    Having watched the full documentary (reminds me when panorama did these kind of things), hard to tell how much is billy bullshitting to impress clients, but there are some serious questions about EFL, corruption in the plod, dirty money from places like Russia in the UK....

    Things we have heard before, but this story seems to bring together the insection of a load of issues.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited August 10
    "I just wonder as well whether hydrogen-powered cars will prove to be much better for the environment than standard EVs."

    But afaik it isn't a realistic option anytime soon, if ever. The chemical process for the enormous and efficient level of production required hasn't been solved, let alone being built and that is before you consider the transportation and storage issues even when you can produce the necessary volumes at the required cost.

    Its one of those things that has been thought about for donkeys years and not really any closer to reality, beyond on a small scale.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720

    "I just wonder as well whether hydrogen-powered cars will prove to be much better for the environment than standard EVs."

    But afaik it isn't a realistic option anytime soon, if ever. The chemical process for the enormous and efficient level of production required hasn't been solved, let alone being built and that is before you consider the transportation and storage issues even when you can produce the necessary volumes at the required cost.

    Its one of those things that has been thought about for donkeys years and not really any closer to reality, beyond on a small scale.

    Hydrogen has all of the disadvantages of both batteries and gasoline.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    rcs1000 said:

    "I just wonder as well whether hydrogen-powered cars will prove to be much better for the environment than standard EVs."

    But afaik it isn't a realistic option anytime soon, if ever. The chemical process for the enormous and efficient level of production required hasn't been solved, let alone being built and that is before you consider the transportation and storage issues even when you can produce the necessary volumes at the required cost.

    Its one of those things that has been thought about for donkeys years and not really any closer to reality, beyond on a small scale.

    Hydrogen has all of the disadvantages of both batteries and gasoline.
    Don't tell Boris, he will think it sounds like a great idea...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,245
    rcs1000 said:

    "I just wonder as well whether hydrogen-powered cars will prove to be much better for the environment than standard EVs."

    But afaik it isn't a realistic option anytime soon, if ever. The chemical process for the enormous and efficient level of production required hasn't been solved, let alone being built and that is before you consider the transportation and storage issues even when you can produce the necessary volumes at the required cost.

    Its one of those things that has been thought about for donkeys years and not really any closer to reality, beyond on a small scale.

    Hydrogen has all of the disadvantages of both batteries and gasoline.
    So a perfect fusion
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    U.S. COVID update: More than 164K new cases many states dump weekend backlogs

    - New cases: 164,153
    - Average: 115,863 (+3,716)
    - In hospital: 68,984 (+2,591)
    - In ICU: 16,828 (+643)
    - New deaths: 460

    More data: https://t.co/YDZSbYO7l7
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    edited August 10
    In case anyone was thinking I was joking about hydrogen being the worst of both worlds, here's my rough ranking of ICE, hydrogen, and battery.

    Performance:
    Battery 10/10
    ICE 7/10
    Hydrogen 3/10

    Infrastructure:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 6/10
    Hydrogen 1/10

    Car's interior:
    Battery 10/10 (they're using on the floor)
    ICE 7/10
    Hydrogen 2/10 (petrol sized engine, massive hydrogen tank taking up half your luggage space)

    Fuelling time:
    ICE 10/10
    Hydrogen 9/10*
    Battery 2/10

    * Assumes you are right next to one of the three places with hydrogen "on tap". Otherwise 1/10, because you'll have to go out your way to find a station

    Environmental impact:
    Battery 6/10
    ICE 3/10
    Hydrogen 1/10 (it's *really* inefficient to go natural gas -> hydrogen -> fuel cell -> motion)

    Handling:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 5/10
    Hydrogen 2/10 (all the extra weight of batteries, none of the performance)

    Range:
    ICE 10/10 (unless it's the Ford Escape I rented the other day, then 6/10)
    Hydrogen 7/10 (the Mirai does get about 350 miles to a tank of hydrogen)
    Battery 4/10 (up from 2/10 two years ago)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    OT for SPotY punters (random thoughts, not tips)

    The cricket T20 World Cup is in November.
    The last two Grands Prix are in December which might be too late for Lewis Hamilton.

    Olympics:-
    Jason Kenny: Britain's most successful Olympian
    Laura Kenny: Britain's most successful female Olympian
    Charlotte Dujardin: level with LK on number of medals but fewer golds
    Adam Peaty: first British swimmer to defend an Olympic title
    Duncan Scott: most medals at one Olympics

    (ht Racing Post and Daily Telegraph)

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    rcs1000 said:

    In case anyone was thinking I was joking about hydrogen being the worst of both worlds, here's my rough ranking of ICE, hydrogen, and battery.

    Performance:
    Battery 10/10
    ICE 7/10
    Hydrogen 3/10

    Infrastructure:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 6/10
    Hydrogen 1/10

    Car's interior:
    Battery 10/10 (they're using on the floor)
    ICE 7/10
    Hydrogen 2/10 (petrol sized engine, massive hydrogen tank taking up half your luggage space)

    Fuelling time:
    ICE 10/10
    Hydrogen 9/10*
    Battery 2/10

    * Assumes you are right next to one of the three places with hydrogen "on tap". Otherwise 1/10, because you'll have to go out your way to find a station

    Environmental impact:
    Battery 6/10
    ICE 3/10
    Hydrogen 1/10 (it's *really* inefficient to go natural gas -> hydrogen -> fuel cell -> motion)

    Handling:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 5/10
    Hydrogen 2/10 (all the extra weight of batteries, none of the performance)

    Range:
    ICE 10/10 (unless it's the Ford Escape I rented the other day, then 6/10)
    Hydrogen 7/10 (the Mirai does get about 350 miles to a tank of hydrogen)
    Battery 4/10 (up from 2/10 two years ago)

    In 2020, the Toyota Mirai, a hydrogen fuel cell powered behemoth managed sales of 499 units in the US. Sales of the Mirai peaked in 2017 in the US and dropped in '18, '19 and '20.

    Despite only costing $50k (and being eligible for a $7.5k grant), it's fair to say demand has been... tepid.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720

    OT for SPotY punters (random thoughts, not tips)

    The cricket T20 World Cup is in November.
    The last two Grands Prix are in December which might be too late for Lewis Hamilton.

    Olympics:-
    Jason Kenny: Britain's most successful Olympian
    Laura Kenny: Britain's most successful female Olympian
    Charlotte Dujardin: level with LK on number of medals but fewer golds
    Adam Peaty: first British swimmer to defend an Olympic title
    Duncan Scott: most medals at one Olympics

    (ht Racing Post and Daily Telegraph)

    Any chance the BBC "bundle" the Kenny's? So, Jason & Laura Kenny win SPoTY?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,416
    rcs1000 said:


    Handling:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 5/10

    Would you really rate battery cars that much worse?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,813
    rcs1000 said:

    In case anyone was thinking I was joking about hydrogen being the worst of both worlds, here's my rough ranking of ICE, hydrogen, and battery.

    Performance:
    Battery 10/10
    ICE 7/10
    Hydrogen 3/10

    Infrastructure:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 6/10
    Hydrogen 1/10

    Car's interior:
    Battery 10/10 (they're using on the floor)
    ICE 7/10
    Hydrogen 2/10 (petrol sized engine, massive hydrogen tank taking up half your luggage space)

    Fuelling time:
    ICE 10/10
    Hydrogen 9/10*
    Battery 2/10

    * Assumes you are right next to one of the three places with hydrogen "on tap". Otherwise 1/10, because you'll have to go out your way to find a station

    Environmental impact:
    Battery 6/10
    ICE 3/10
    Hydrogen 1/10 (it's *really* inefficient to go natural gas -> hydrogen -> fuel cell -> motion)

    Handling:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 5/10
    Hydrogen 2/10 (all the extra weight of batteries, none of the performance)

    Range:
    ICE 10/10 (unless it's the Ford Escape I rented the other day, then 6/10)
    Hydrogen 7/10 (the Mirai does get about 350 miles to a tank of hydrogen)
    Battery 4/10 (up from 2/10 two years ago)

    Yesterday I posted a link to JCB's new (non-fuel cell) engine for large plant. Do you think that's potentially a reasonable use for hydrogen?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,813

    Undercover reporters from @AJIUnit try to buy a football club:
    ⚽️ They say they work for a convicted criminal.
    ⚽️ The story should end here.
    ⚽️ It doesn’t.
    ⚽️ Discover how the men #SellingFootball wash dirty money through the beautiful game.
    THREAD 👇🧵 https://t.co/qUy0EWIHPp

    Samuelson also claims Chinese investor, Tony Xia, who bought @AVFCOfficial in 2016 was a front for an unknown investor.

    He says he doesn’t know where his client’s money really came from.
    #SellingFootball https://t.co/5UqE99NwVC

    https://twitter.com/AJIunit/status/1424847506626777096?s=19

    Having watched the full documentary (reminds me when panorama did these kind of things), hard to tell how much is billy bullshitting to impress clients, but there are some serious questions about EFL, corruption in the plod, dirty money from places like Russia in the UK....

    Things we have heard before, but this story seems to bring together the insection of a load of issues.

    Football has massively complex, arcane and opaque finances, almost designed to hide and misuse money.
    Billions flow virtually unseen through the system.
    Yet few people are arrested for, or even accused of, corruption.
    It's almost as if no-one in any position of power, governmental or private, cares.

    So why is anyone surprised about this?

    Football is utterly corrupt, especially at the top level.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited August 10

    Undercover reporters from @AJIUnit try to buy a football club:
    ⚽️ They say they work for a convicted criminal.
    ⚽️ The story should end here.
    ⚽️ It doesn’t.
    ⚽️ Discover how the men #SellingFootball wash dirty money through the beautiful game.
    THREAD 👇🧵 https://t.co/qUy0EWIHPp

    Samuelson also claims Chinese investor, Tony Xia, who bought @AVFCOfficial in 2016 was a front for an unknown investor.

    He says he doesn’t know where his client’s money really came from.
    #SellingFootball https://t.co/5UqE99NwVC

    https://twitter.com/AJIunit/status/1424847506626777096?s=19

    Having watched the full documentary (reminds me when panorama did these kind of things), hard to tell how much is billy bullshitting to impress clients, but there are some serious questions about EFL, corruption in the plod, dirty money from places like Russia in the UK....

    Things we have heard before, but this story seems to bring together the insection of a load of issues.

    Football has massively complex, arcane and opaque finances, almost designed to hide and misuse money.
    Billions flow virtually unseen through the system.
    Yet few people are arrested for, or even accused of, corruption.
    It's almost as if no-one in any position of power, governmental or private, cares.

    So why is anyone surprised about this?

    Football is utterly corrupt, especially at the top level.
    What was interesting about this investigation is how it also ended up going well beyond football, touching on the continued use of the sort of tactics exposed during phone hacking scandal, EU passport scandal, etc.

    It was the intersection of lots of soft and hard corruption that in itself isn't new, but was interesting to see how it can all be interconnected. Of you got criminal convictions, you need to do this with your money, then you need to speak to my mate about finding out who is investigating you, then we will introduce you to how to get an EU passport. All of which happens well outside the corrupt world of football.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 2,954

    U.S. COVID update: More than 164K new cases many states dump weekend backlogs

    - New cases: 164,153
    - Average: 115,863 (+3,716)
    - In hospital: 68,984 (+2,591)
    - In ICU: 16,828 (+643)
    - New deaths: 460

    More data: https://t.co/YDZSbYO7l7

    I'm in LA now and everybody I've met here is crapping themselves about the new wave, having seen what has happened in the UK and in Israel, despite our higher vaccination rates. Unsurprisingly, there is a much higher compliance on mask mandates here than in Nevada, where I was previously.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 64,643
    edited August 10
    Fishing said:

    U.S. COVID update: More than 164K new cases many states dump weekend backlogs

    - New cases: 164,153
    - Average: 115,863 (+3,716)
    - In hospital: 68,984 (+2,591)
    - In ICU: 16,828 (+643)
    - New deaths: 460

    More data: https://t.co/YDZSbYO7l7

    I'm in LA now and everybody I've met here is crapping themselves about the new wave, having seen what has happened in the UK and in Israel, despite our higher vaccination rates. Unsurprisingly, there is a much higher compliance on mask mandates here than in Nevada, where I was previously.
    As long as you are a sophisticated individual you have nothing worry about....see NYT writer defending Obama bash.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    rcs1000 said:

    OT for SPotY punters (random thoughts, not tips)

    The cricket T20 World Cup is in November.
    The last two Grands Prix are in December which might be too late for Lewis Hamilton.

    Olympics:-
    Jason Kenny: Britain's most successful Olympian
    Laura Kenny: Britain's most successful female Olympian
    Charlotte Dujardin: level with LK on number of medals but fewer golds
    Adam Peaty: first British swimmer to defend an Olympic title
    Duncan Scott: most medals at one Olympics

    (ht Racing Post and Daily Telegraph)

    Any chance the BBC "bundle" the Kenny's? So, Jason & Laura Kenny win SPoTY?
    Anything is possible but it seems unlikely. Could the BBC shortlist one without the other? The cycling vote could be badly split. Could one drop out to maximise the other's chance? Again, it seems unlikely: Tyson Fury tried but was nominated anyway. My advice is probably to wait and see who is nominated.

    What the BBC could do is make the cyclists Team of the Year which might reduce the votes for the main award, although I'd expect that to go to the England football team. It's all just speculation.

    And it is not just SPotY. We might also be able to bet what gongs will be dished out in the New Year Honours, assuming Boris does not bring forward a special Olympics honours list to coincide with the party conference season.

    As @StuartDickson told us, Tom Daley has taken over favouritism from Jason Kenny. Fwiw, the Telegraph reported Tom was the most popular of the returning Olympians, at least at the airport, and he will be auctioning the Olympic cardigan he knitted to raise money for (or rather against) brain tumours.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,245
    Fishing said:

    U.S. COVID update: More than 164K new cases many states dump weekend backlogs

    - New cases: 164,153
    - Average: 115,863 (+3,716)
    - In hospital: 68,984 (+2,591)
    - In ICU: 16,828 (+643)
    - New deaths: 460

    More data: https://t.co/YDZSbYO7l7

    I'm in LA now and everybody I've met here is crapping themselves about the new wave, having seen what has happened in the UK and in Israel, despite our higher vaccination rates. Unsurprisingly, there is a much higher compliance on mask mandates here than in Nevada, where I was previously.
    Down in Socal we are totally chill

    I only saw one couple wearing masks on the beach
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    edited August 10
    Congratulations to PB's teachers on achieving record A-level scores.

    Applications to study medicine and nursing are up, though we are still chronically dependent on importing doctors from overseas. Since 2018, we have recruited more foreign doctors than we have trained.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/09/failure-train-doctors-uk-hurts-developing-world/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198

    Undercover reporters from @AJIUnit try to buy a football club:
    ⚽️ They say they work for a convicted criminal.
    ⚽️ The story should end here.
    ⚽️ It doesn’t.
    ⚽️ Discover how the men #SellingFootball wash dirty money through the beautiful game.
    THREAD 👇🧵 https://t.co/qUy0EWIHPp

    Samuelson also claims Chinese investor, Tony Xia, who bought @AVFCOfficial in 2016 was a front for an unknown investor.

    He says he doesn’t know where his client’s money really came from.
    #SellingFootball https://t.co/5UqE99NwVC

    https://twitter.com/AJIunit/status/1424847506626777096?s=19

    Having watched the full documentary (reminds me when panorama did these kind of things), hard to tell how much is billy bullshitting to impress clients, but there are some serious questions about EFL, corruption in the plod, dirty money from places like Russia in the UK....

    Things we have heard before, but this story seems to bring together the insection of a load of issues.

    Football has massively complex, arcane and opaque finances, almost designed to hide and misuse money.
    Billions flow virtually unseen through the system.
    Yet few people are arrested for, or even accused of, corruption.
    It's almost as if no-one in any position of power, governmental or private, cares.

    So why is anyone surprised about this?

    Football is utterly corrupt, especially at the top level.
    It is just coincidence, of course, but it seems somehow fitting that Aston Villa is mentioned, as we read how much Greensill added to David Cameron's piggy bank.

    Are football's finances so opaque now? Surely we can see where the money flows through the system, as transfer fees and salaries are published, as are television deals. What we cannot see is where the money to buy clubs comes from in the first place.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,127
    rcs1000 said:

    OT for SPotY punters (random thoughts, not tips)

    The cricket T20 World Cup is in November.
    The last two Grands Prix are in December which might be too late for Lewis Hamilton.

    Olympics:-
    Jason Kenny: Britain's most successful Olympian
    Laura Kenny: Britain's most successful female Olympian
    Charlotte Dujardin: level with LK on number of medals but fewer golds
    Adam Peaty: first British swimmer to defend an Olympic title
    Duncan Scott: most medals at one Olympics

    (ht Racing Post and Daily Telegraph)

    Any chance the BBC "bundle" the Kenny's? So, Jason & Laura Kenny win SPoTY?
    Could create some interesting arguments with bookies!

    I suspect that won’t happen. It didn’t happen in 2016.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226
    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    It surely is a question she must have anticipated so ought to have prepared a better answer even if she did keep the car.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 29,568
    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    Allegra seems to have communicated the 'do as I say' essence of this government rather well.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    There is some validity in continuing to run an old vehicle on the basis of carbon cost of manufacture. I run my 13 year old 100 000 mile Fiat 500 for this reason, but it will be my last ICE vehicle. My electric Kia is so much better as a vehicle, from both performance and economy reasons. Charging really isn't a hassle, and it does nearly 300 miles on a charge, which is as far as I ever want to drive without a break. It does the 180 miles to the IoW very comfortably when Mrs Foxy goes there every month to see her mum.

    The air pollution from older diesels is appalling though, quite apart from the carbon dioxide production. Air pollution from road vehicles causes many deaths per year.

    https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-magazine/safety-management-magazine/2018/diesel-linked-to-10-000-premature-deaths-each-year-finds-university-study/

    Commercial, agricultural and marine vehicles present real problems, but for cars? It is right to ban diesel cars. Having someone who doesn't understand this as spokesperson shows how tin earned this government is.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    edited August 10
    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    You would be hard-pushed to find a car that could not swallow 85 miles. Maybe there and back if you cannot recharge at the hotel. The ones with the very short ranges are probably hybrids.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423
    Good morning everybody.
    Somewhat brighter this morning; forecast is for sunny intervals and a gentle breeze. Which, if it happens will be very pleasant.

    I've commented before about electric cars; if I didn't need to have the ability to make occasional long journeys I think I'd have had one by now. Elder son managed very happily with his while he worked locally; now he may well have to make some longer trips he's not so sure. So I agree with Mr DL, at 6.43

    However, our big family issue this morning is Younger Grandson's A level results.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    There is some validity in continuing to run an old vehicle on the basis of carbon cost of manufacture. I run my 13 year old 100 000 mile Fiat 500 for this reason, but it will be my last ICE vehicle. My electric Kia is so much better as a vehicle, from both performance and economy reasons. Charging really isn't a hassle, and it does nearly 300 miles on a charge, which is as far as I ever want to drive without a break. It does the 180 miles to the IoW very comfortably when Mrs Foxy goes there every month to see her mum.

    The air pollution from older diesels is appalling though, quite apart from the carbon dioxide production. Air pollution from road vehicles causes many deaths per year.

    https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-magazine/safety-management-magazine/2018/diesel-linked-to-10-000-premature-deaths-each-year-finds-university-study/

    Commercial, agricultural and marine vehicles present real problems, but for cars? It is right to ban diesel cars. Having someone who doesn't understand this as spokesperson shows how tin earned this government is.
    Once you’ve owned a modern electric car, it’s really hard to imagine going back.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,602
    Drove with a friend in their Tesla from Amsterdam to Heidelberg. Stopped twice at Superchargers for a coffee. Brilliant. If I could afford it I’d buy one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    Jonathan said:

    Drove with a friend in their Tesla from Amsterdam to Heidelberg. Stopped twice at Superchargers for a coffee. Brilliant. If I could afford it I’d buy one.

    I have only charged twice at commercial chargers, and once was out of curiosity. I simply charge at home. There is though a need to have fewer apps and a more transparent pricing for these for those who cannot charge in a driveway, and for lamp post charging in areas without drives.

    I am waiting for a compact eV with better range before scrapping my Fiat 500, which probably just has a couple more years to go. The Renault Zoe is perhaps the only compact with good range.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,949
    Good morning, everyone.

    Do electric car enthusiasts have any concerns regarding the cost of manufacture and the potential difficulty of disposing of batteries once they're done?

    Not a driver, but I am wondering if this is going to be akin to the biofuel situation where something that seems very good environmentally turns out not to be so when the full lifetime (and aftermath) of the car is accounted.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 51,490
    Anti-vaxxers protest BBC coverage of pandemic by storming a building in White City. A building the BBC vacated in 2013 and is now luxury flats. Is there a link between stupidity and anti-vax? Opinions vary but evidence is growing …

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1424744371551973380?s=20
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186
    As was said yesterday, if there’s’ such an emergency then why are they having the conference in person, with a hundred planes flying in?

    If climate change activists can’t hold their conference remotely, then what chance of them persuading the rest of us to change our behaviour?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226
    edited August 10
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious.
    It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.

    Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186

    Good morning, everyone.

    Do electric car enthusiasts have any concerns regarding the cost of manufacture and the potential difficulty of disposing of batteries once they're done?

    Not a driver, but I am wondering if this is going to be akin to the biofuel situation where something that seems very good environmentally turns out not to be so when the full lifetime (and aftermath) of the car is accounted.

    There’s certainly going to be billions of batteries to be recycled soon, as they start to fail.

    There’s also some evidence that the lifetime of an EV is less than an ICE car, there will be very few 15 year old EVs on the road in future.

    That said, the battery technology is quickly improving, and there’s Tesla taxis in the States with half a million miles on them.

    In the meantime, the most environmentally friendly car is one that’s already on the road, so keep your old car running for a little longer, rather than buying a few one every couple of years.

    Oh, and the ‘fun’ cars are going to go away, so get one now while they’re still around #SaveTheV8s.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,907
    My Toyota Hybrid has a range of 500 miles plus. Last time we had a French holiday we got from just north of the Spanish border to Calais on petrol stop.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,465
    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    Not really. She is just expressing the reality for most people - my next car may well be electric but I don't know when that will be. In the meantime, my 10 year old Megane has done 52,000 miles and I see no point changing it, unless it's for something more "interesting" and hence worse for the environment.

    The other question about electric cars is - what do we do about people who cannot afford, or do not want to, buy new? With the amount of driving I do I cannot see the utility of spending more than a few thousand on a car, and many people of course can afford much less than that. I have never bought a new car and see no reason to start now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Drove with a friend in their Tesla from Amsterdam to Heidelberg. Stopped twice at Superchargers for a coffee. Brilliant. If I could afford it I’d buy one.

    I have only charged twice at commercial chargers, and once was out of curiosity. I simply charge at home. There is though a need to have fewer apps and a more transparent pricing for these for those who cannot charge in a driveway, and for lamp post charging in areas without drives.

    I am waiting for a compact eV with better range before scrapping my Fiat 500, which probably just has a couple more years to go. The Renault Zoe is perhaps the only compact with good range.
    More compacts are on the way - but probably not until the new battery factories are in production.
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/insideevs.com/news/524282/25k-tesla-prototype-built-rumor/amp/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186

    Anti-vaxxers protest BBC coverage of pandemic by storming a building in White City. A building the BBC vacated in 2013 and is now luxury flats. Is there a link between stupidity and anti-vax? Opinions vary but evidence is growing …

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1424744371551973380?s=20

    Who are these idiots? They protested a block of flats, not realising the BBC haven’t used the building for eight years!

    I guess they’re the same idiots who don’t want to get vaccinated against a pandemic virus, so maybe that explains a lot!
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,670
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Agreed. That's why our new car arriving next week is a Tesla. Second hand value for Teslas are fantastic - almost too good to be true!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious.
    It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.

    Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
    One can still buy roll films and 35mm. Seem to be expensive though. And, for some reason, I understand that old film cameras, such as the Brownie, are 'collectables'.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186
    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OT for SPotY punters (random thoughts, not tips)

    The cricket T20 World Cup is in November.
    The last two Grands Prix are in December which might be too late for Lewis Hamilton.

    Olympics:-
    Jason Kenny: Britain's most successful Olympian
    Laura Kenny: Britain's most successful female Olympian
    Charlotte Dujardin: level with LK on number of medals but fewer golds
    Adam Peaty: first British swimmer to defend an Olympic title
    Duncan Scott: most medals at one Olympics

    (ht Racing Post and Daily Telegraph)

    Any chance the BBC "bundle" the Kenny's? So, Jason & Laura Kenny win SPoTY?
    Could create some interesting arguments with bookies!

    I suspect that won’t happen. It didn’t happen in 2016.
    The only time something like that happpened was in 1984, when Torvill and Dean were the winners. At least they won the same medal!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,576
    Fishing said:

    U.S. COVID update: More than 164K new cases many states dump weekend backlogs

    - New cases: 164,153
    - Average: 115,863 (+3,716)
    - In hospital: 68,984 (+2,591)
    - In ICU: 16,828 (+643)
    - New deaths: 460

    More data: https://t.co/YDZSbYO7l7

    I'm in LA now and everybody I've met here is crapping themselves about the new wave, having seen what has happened in the UK and in Israel, despite our higher vaccination rates. Unsurprisingly, there is a much higher compliance on mask mandates here than in Nevada, where I was previously.
    Proper masks or placebo masks ?

    Not that it matters much as everyone will come into contact with Delta sooner or later.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423
    Sort of on topic, but as someone who watches The Hundred I wonder about the economics of such firms as Cazoo; mail-order second hand cars. I was always told, when I lived near Southend that if you wanted a secondhand car, the best policy was to travel along the A13 for about the last ten miles into Southend. if you couldn't find a suitable second hand car along there, you were very fussy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226

    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    Not really. She is just expressing the reality for most people - my next car may well be electric but I don't know when that will be. In the meantime, my 10 year old Megane has done 52,000 miles and I see no point changing it, unless it's for something more "interesting" and hence worse for the environment.

    The other question about electric cars is - what do we do about people who cannot afford, or do not want to, buy new? With the amount of driving I do I cannot see the utility of spending more than a few thousand on a car, and many people of course can afford much less than that. I have never bought a new car and see no reason to start now.
    Allegra Stratton, on a salary of around £100k, is not one of those people.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,576
    rcs1000 said:

    In case anyone was thinking I was joking about hydrogen being the worst of both worlds, here's my rough ranking of ICE, hydrogen, and battery.

    Performance:
    Battery 10/10
    ICE 7/10
    Hydrogen 3/10

    Infrastructure:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 6/10
    Hydrogen 1/10

    Car's interior:
    Battery 10/10 (they're using on the floor)
    ICE 7/10
    Hydrogen 2/10 (petrol sized engine, massive hydrogen tank taking up half your luggage space)

    Fuelling time:
    ICE 10/10
    Hydrogen 9/10*
    Battery 2/10

    * Assumes you are right next to one of the three places with hydrogen "on tap". Otherwise 1/10, because you'll have to go out your way to find a station

    Environmental impact:
    Battery 6/10
    ICE 3/10
    Hydrogen 1/10 (it's *really* inefficient to go natural gas -> hydrogen -> fuel cell -> motion)

    Handling:
    ICE 10/10
    Battery 5/10
    Hydrogen 2/10 (all the extra weight of batteries, none of the performance)

    Range:
    ICE 10/10 (unless it's the Ford Escape I rented the other day, then 6/10)
    Hydrogen 7/10 (the Mirai does get about 350 miles to a tank of hydrogen)
    Battery 4/10 (up from 2/10 two years ago)

    Cost ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    edited August 10
    murali_s said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Agreed. That's why our new car arriving next week is a Tesla. Second hand value for Teslas are fantastic - almost too good to be true!
    In a high way or a low way?

    I looked at going electric when my 16 year old diesel finally gave way last October. But I couldn’t make the numbers work. Instead, I bought a six year old petrol for £6000 which does everything I need pretty cheaply. Once you factor in the extra cost of the car, I wouldn’t have been saving money with an electric.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious.
    It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.

    Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
    One can still buy roll films and 35mm. Seem to be expensive though. And, for some reason, I understand that old film cameras, such as the Brownie, are 'collectables'.
    Which is why the best of the current generation of cars, are going to be collectible in future.

    At least that’s my excuse for buying a nice car, albeit a used one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226
    .

    Good morning, everyone.

    Do electric car enthusiasts have any concerns regarding the cost of manufacture and the potential difficulty of disposing of batteries once they're done?

    Not a driver, but I am wondering if this is going to be akin to the biofuel situation where something that seems very good environmentally turns out not to be so when the full lifetime (and aftermath) of the car is accounted.

    Almost certainly not.
    All the big manufacturers are betting their future on them, and those plans include recycling, probably for economic more than environmental reasons.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious.
    It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.

    Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
    One can still buy roll films and 35mm. Seem to be expensive though. And, for some reason, I understand that old film cameras, such as the Brownie, are 'collectables'.
    Sure, there will long be a market for enthusiasts, but it will be tiny.

    There isn't much second hand market in eV yet, and those made 10 years ago have much shorter ranges, so not representative of what is sold now.

    Kia have a 100 000 mile guarantee on the battery, and by the time we get there, I am sure that replacement cells will be both cheaper and recycled. I expect that I will be driving mine for a long time into retirement. There are fewer moving parts to wear out.

    The slow adopters always have an excuse for not changing, but will be left with unsellable old bangers in a few years time.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,949
    Mr. B, perhaps. Some say car manufacturers aren't necessarily overflowing with trust given recent emissions coverups.

    Whatever happened to that German firm? Slap on the wrist?
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 613
    I drove a plug in hybrid for 5 years and now for the last 2 years a full EV.
    If you can afford one, and have off road home charging, then they are easy to live with.
    Charging infrastructure is improving all the time and a major problem, Ecotricity at motorway services, is now undergoing a massive improvement by Gridserve.
    I charge overnight at 5p/unit, this equates to about 1.5p/mile, and I can easily charge 300 miles per week at this low rate.
    Finally, there is no going back, once you have driven one, you realise how good they are, instant torque, which is very addictive,and very quiet.
    I have an order in for a Kia EV6, the Koreans will dominate this market.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,447
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186

    Sandpit said:

    As was said yesterday, if there’s’ such an emergency then why are they having the conference in person, with a hundred planes flying in?

    If climate change activists can’t hold their conference remotely, then what chance of them persuading the rest of us to change our behaviour?

    It is certainly an absurd situation that aviation fuel is exempt of tax. If it were taxed like other fuel, then perhaps flying wouldn't be the cheapest way to travel.
    Maybe that’s something that could be agreed at the conference?

    It needs to be done on a global basis though, unless you want the unintended consequence of airlines tankering return trip fuel, which makes the plane heavier, which makes it burn more fuel…
    An A380 can go from Dubai to London and back, without refuelling in London, and they will if it’s more economical to do it.
  • Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    If you're one of the few people that regularly need to drive more than 200 miles a day, then the best car for you is probably a diesel. For most other people, an electric car will do.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,670
    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Agreed. That's why our new car arriving next week is a Tesla. Second hand value for Teslas are fantastic - almost too good to be true!
    In a high way or a low way?

    I looked at going electric when my 16 year old diesel finally gave way last October. But I couldn’t make the numbers work. Instead, I bought a six year old petrol for £6000 which does everything I need pretty cheaply. Once you factor in the extra cost of the car, I wouldn’t have been saving money with an electric.
    In a high way.

    New Model 3 Standard Plus £42k

    2.5 year old Model 3 Standard Plus £36k
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,675
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious.
    It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.

    Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
    One can still buy roll films and 35mm. Seem to be expensive though. And, for some reason, I understand that old film cameras, such as the Brownie, are 'collectables'.
    Which is why the best of the current generation of cars, are going to be collectible in future.

    At least that’s my excuse for buying a nice car, albeit a used one.
    The real value now are the last of the naturally aspirated monsters from about 2000-2010 so M156 engined Mercs, S62/S85 engined BMWs and 3.6 997s. That era was 'peak ICE' in my opinion and are better long term ownership propositions than more modern turbos/hybrids.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    Not really. She is just expressing the reality for most people - my next car may well be electric but I don't know when that will be. In the meantime, my 10 year old Megane has done 52,000 miles and I see no point changing it, unless it's for something more "interesting" and hence worse for the environment.

    The other question about electric cars is - what do we do about people who cannot afford, or do not want to, buy new? With the amount of driving I do I cannot see the utility of spending more than a few thousand on a car, and many people of course can afford much less than that. I have never bought a new car and see no reason to start now.
    Allegra Stratton, on a salary of around £100k, is not one of those people.
    Presumably in London much of the time, so ULEZ and congestion charges must be high for her old diesel.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    murali_s said:

    ydoethur said:

    murali_s said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Agreed. That's why our new car arriving next week is a Tesla. Second hand value for Teslas are fantastic - almost too good to be true!
    In a high way or a low way?

    I looked at going electric when my 16 year old diesel finally gave way last October. But I couldn’t make the numbers work. Instead, I bought a six year old petrol for £6000 which does everything I need pretty cheaply. Once you factor in the extra cost of the car, I wouldn’t have been saving money with an electric.
    In a high way.

    New Model 3 Standard Plus £42k

    2.5 year old Model 3 Standard Plus £36k
    The problem is that still puts it out of reach of most people.

    OK, that’s a Tesla. A luxury item sold by a man who frankly comes across as a narcissistic attention junkie rather than somebody genuinely interested in our transport or environmental problems. But if other EVs hold their value to that extent until the battery actually dies, where are ordinary people going to pick up an affordable second hand car like I did last October?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house.
    Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    jayfdee said:

    I drove a plug in hybrid for 5 years and now for the last 2 years a full EV.
    If you can afford one, and have off road home charging, then they are easy to live with.
    Charging infrastructure is improving all the time and a major problem, Ecotricity at motorway services, is now undergoing a massive improvement by Gridserve.
    I charge overnight at 5p/unit, this equates to about 1.5p/mile, and I can easily charge 300 miles per week at this low rate.
    Finally, there is no going back, once you have driven one, you realise how good they are, instant torque, which is very addictive,and very quiet.
    I have an order in for a Kia EV6, the Koreans will dominate this market.

    My only regret with the eNiro is that the EV6 is a better car. Kia build quality is something else, far better than any other car that I have owned, British, European or Japanese. The days when they were a down market bargain alternative are long gone.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    As was said yesterday, if there’s’ such an emergency then why are they having the conference in person, with a hundred planes flying in?

    If climate change activists can’t hold their conference remotely, then what chance of them persuading the rest of us to change our behaviour?

    It is certainly an absurd situation that aviation fuel is exempt of tax. If it were taxed like other fuel, then perhaps flying wouldn't be the cheapest way to travel.
    Maybe that’s something that could be agreed at the conference?

    It needs to be done on a global basis though, unless you want the unintended consequence of airlines tankering return trip fuel, which makes the plane heavier, which makes it burn more fuel…
    An A380 can go from Dubai to London and back, without refuelling in London, and they will if it’s more economical to do it.
    Yes, is does indeed need to be implemented on a global basis, as do most other climate policies. Hence the need for international conferences where such policies can be hammered out.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious.
    It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.

    Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
    One can still buy roll films and 35mm. Seem to be expensive though. And, for some reason, I understand that old film cameras, such as the Brownie, are 'collectables'.
    Which is why the best of the current generation of cars, are going to be collectible in future.

    At least that’s my excuse for buying a nice car, albeit a used one.
    The real value now are the last of the naturally aspirated monsters from about 2000-2010 so M156 engined Mercs, S62/S85 engined BMWs and 3.6 997s. That era was 'peak ICE' in my opinion and are better long term ownership propositions than more modern turbos/hybrids.
    I was listening to a bunch of journalists having a discussion on ‘peak car’ the other day. The one they came up with was the 2010 997.2 GT3RS. Bonus points if you can find the 4.0 rather than the 3.8.

    The M156 is definitely on the to do list. A W211 E63 Wagon would be a keeper, when everyone else is driving around in applicances.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    Not really. She is just expressing the reality for most people - my next car may well be electric but I don't know when that will be. In the meantime, my 10 year old Megane has done 52,000 miles and I see no point changing it, unless it's for something more "interesting" and hence worse for the environment.

    The other question about electric cars is - what do we do about people who cannot afford, or do not want to, buy new? With the amount of driving I do I cannot see the utility of spending more than a few thousand on a car, and many people of course can afford much less than that. I have never bought a new car and see no reason to start now.
    Allegra Stratton, on a salary of around £100k, is not one of those people.
    Presumably in London much of the time, so ULEZ and congestion charges must be high for her old diesel.
    Expenses, surely! So we're paying.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 709
    edited August 10
    The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace. For a new vehicle the argument for EVs is strong but a large proportion of people wouldn't consider buying a new car particularly as they have significantly risen in price in recent years. The demand for used cars is growing and EV's are >2% of this.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58150025

    I do not buy the saving the world argument at all. The benefits of EVs are simply to do with air quality and possibly noise. However. there is nothing at all virtuous about driving a 1.5 ton lump of metal 1 mile to work or school. When you think about it, it is absurd. Walk, cycle or get an electric scooter.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house.
    Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
    Depends on the car. You can charge new Skodas off the mains, for instance, the Octavia hybrid.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 613

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house.
    Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
    You can just run a cable from a 13 amp outlet, but it is slow. Ok for overnight top up.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    darkage said:

    The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace. For a new vehicle the argument for EVs is strong but a large proportion of people wouldn't consider buying a new car particularly as they have significantly risen in price in recent years. The demand for used cars is growing and EV's are >2% of this.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58150025

    I do not buy the saving the world argument at all. The benefits of EVs are simply to do with air quality and possibly noise. However. there is nothing at all virtuous about driving a 1.5 ton lump of metal 1 mile to work or school. When you think about it, it is absurd. Walk, cycle or get an electric scooter.

    Although if we’re looking at cycling longer distances than that where a dress code is mandatory, another thing that will be needed is half decent changing facilities. Not all workplaces have those still.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423
    edited August 10
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house.
    Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
    Depends on the car. You can charge new Skodas off the mains, for instance, the Octavia hybrid.
    Thanks. Skoda dealer rather talked me out of an electric when I bought a new Fabia not long ago. Did rather wonder if he was trying to clear 'old' stock!
  • theProletheProle Posts: 537
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t it the business of government to be providing answers rather than ‘raising questions’ ?
    And in any event, you would have though that someone paid to communicate on behalf of the government could come up with a less clumsy way of justifying her car choice.

    There is some validity in continuing to run an old vehicle on the basis of carbon cost of manufacture. I run my 13 year old 100 000 mile Fiat 500 for this reason, but it will be my last ICE vehicle. My electric Kia is so much better as a vehicle, from both performance and economy reasons. Charging really isn't a hassle, and it does nearly 300 miles on a charge, which is as far as I ever want to drive without a break. It does the 180 miles to the IoW very comfortably when Mrs Foxy goes there every month to see her mum.

    The air pollution from older diesels is appalling though, quite apart from the carbon dioxide production. Air pollution from road vehicles causes many deaths per year.

    https://www.britsafe.org/publications/safety-management-magazine/safety-management-magazine/2018/diesel-linked-to-10-000-premature-deaths-each-year-finds-university-study/

    Commercial, agricultural and marine vehicles present real problems, but for cars? It is right to ban diesel cars. Having someone who doesn't understand this as spokesperson shows how tin earned this government is.
    There are a couple of things with diesels.

    Firstly, whilst some older ones are fairly polluting, the current generation is actually very clean - as with so many things, a fighting a war on diesel is actually fighting the last war - the problem is actually pretty much fixed, there really isn't much in it between petrol and diesel.

    Secondly, not all pollution is equal, and different pollution matters in different contexts. Older diesels in urban areas are a problem because they produce a lot of Nox and particulates. They are low on Co2 emissions compared to petrol engines.

    In rural areas the Nox and particulates don't really matter (it's only really an issue where there are lots of cars and people to breathe the resulting pollution). It's much better for the planet for me to do the 25miles fast driving across empty Derbyshire countryside to work in a diesel car than a petrol car, and the Nox and particulates won't do anyone any harm.

    For a lot of usage (basically everywhere outside the M25), diesel hybrids designed to do urban driving on battery then kick onto diesel for longer distance travel would be the best of all possible worlds - you could probably pretty much GPS block the engine starting in urban areas. Unfortunately because our politicians all live inside the M25, sensible stuff like this is discouraged, and they want everyone to go full electric which is only really practical for rich urban users - like surprise surprise - politicians.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423
    jayfdee said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house.
    Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
    You can just run a cable from a 13 amp outlet, but it is slow. Ok for overnight top up.
    OK for overnight at bro-in-law's, though?
  • darkage said:

    The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace. For a new vehicle the argument for EVs is strong but a large proportion of people wouldn't consider buying a new car particularly as they have significantly risen in price in recent years. The demand for used cars is growing and EV's are >2% of this.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58150025

    I do not buy the saving the world argument at all. The benefits of EVs are simply to do with air quality and possibly noise. However. there is nothing at all virtuous about driving a 1.5 ton lump of metal 1 mile to work or school. When you think about it, it is absurd. Walk, cycle or get an electric scooter.

    The fundamental reason for replacing ICEs with EVs is to reduce CO2 emissions. Yes, it makes good sense to walk, cycle or use public transport if you can, but sometimes you need a car. It's those cases we're talking about.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house.
    Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
    Depends on the car. You can charge new Skodas off the mains, for instance, the Octavia hybrid.
    Thanks. Skoda dealer rather talked me out of an electric when I bought a new Fabia not long ago
    BTW, hope you’re grandson’s A-level results are OK, although this year there shouldn’t really be any surprises. Did he decide where he wanted to go?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,454
    Foxy said:

    jayfdee said:

    I drove a plug in hybrid for 5 years and now for the last 2 years a full EV.
    If you can afford one, and have off road home charging, then they are easy to live with.
    Charging infrastructure is improving all the time and a major problem, Ecotricity at motorway services, is now undergoing a massive improvement by Gridserve.
    I charge overnight at 5p/unit, this equates to about 1.5p/mile, and I can easily charge 300 miles per week at this low rate.
    Finally, there is no going back, once you have driven one, you realise how good they are, instant torque, which is very addictive,and very quiet.
    I have an order in for a Kia EV6, the Koreans will dominate this market.

    My only regret with the eNiro is that the EV6 is a better car. Kia build quality is something else, far better than any other car that I have owned, British, European or Japanese. The days when they were a down market bargain alternative are long gone.
    I would love to change to an EV, but I live in a terraced house with no off street parking, so I couldn't take advantage of the overnight. I would have to charge at a local charger every other day or something. I think at my age I will be running my driving years out in a diesel I'm afraid.
  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 613

    jayfdee said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house.
    Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
    You can just run a cable from a 13 amp outlet, but it is slow. Ok for overnight top up.
    OK for overnight at bro-in-law's, though?
    Typically you can put about 10 mile/hr charge in from a 13 amp outlet,so perhaps 100 miles from an overnight top up.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Its still not good enough. My diesel eu 6 compliant will go 660 miles on a tank if carefull driven. I need that so i never have to be extorted by motorway service stations who are chsrging over 1.60 for a litre of diesel. Until an electric car has a 500 mile range.. forget it.. i don't want to hang around for an hour filling up and queue for that "pleasure" either. .
    Don't drive a diesel, but our petrol car will do almost 300 miles on a tank. Some places we visit we could probably get a charge, but by no means all, so long trips would involve more planning than I want to do. For example, looks, from the last map I looked at, two or three months ago, that one of our relations lives about 10 miles from somewhere where could get a charge, and AIUI, one can't just run a cable from an ordinary 240v plug in a house.
    Unless I'm wrong, and someone here will, unquestionably, know!
    I charge from a regular plug via an extension lead when on the Isle of Wight. It charges at about 10 miles per hour of charging, so left overnight is nearly a full charge. No hassle, I just keep the extension lead in the car.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,651
    I certainly cannot afford to buy another car any time soon. Nor can my daughter. Or her staff. So we will keep ours going for as long as we can.

    The price of electric cars is going to have come down considerably before I can afford to make the switch, as well as needing a huge improvement in charging infrastructure, especially in rural areas.

    Incidentally, why doesn't Allegra have a petrol car rather than a diesel one? I thought the latter were even worse for the environment.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 44,970
    edited August 10
    My 2016 BMW 520d has 119g/km emissions and I pay £30 pa road tax

    I bought it with 8 miles on the clock and it has now done 19,250 miles and I can travel the 450 miles from our home here to Lossiemouth and back to Perth without needing to refuel

    To be fair I just have no interest or incentive to change the car which is fantastic, and certainly not paying many thousands of pounds for an EV
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186

    Foxy said:

    jayfdee said:

    I drove a plug in hybrid for 5 years and now for the last 2 years a full EV.
    If you can afford one, and have off road home charging, then they are easy to live with.
    Charging infrastructure is improving all the time and a major problem, Ecotricity at motorway services, is now undergoing a massive improvement by Gridserve.
    I charge overnight at 5p/unit, this equates to about 1.5p/mile, and I can easily charge 300 miles per week at this low rate.
    Finally, there is no going back, once you have driven one, you realise how good they are, instant torque, which is very addictive,and very quiet.
    I have an order in for a Kia EV6, the Koreans will dominate this market.

    My only regret with the eNiro is that the EV6 is a better car. Kia build quality is something else, far better than any other car that I have owned, British, European or Japanese. The days when they were a down market bargain alternative are long gone.
    I would love to change to an EV, but I live in a terraced house with no off street parking, so I couldn't take advantage of the overnight. I would have to charge at a local charger every other day or something. I think at my age I will be running my driving years out in a diesel I'm afraid.
    Yes, the infrastructure is going to be the biggest challenge of the next few years.

    Some London boroughs are installing chargers on lamp posts, intended for overnight use so need only be 32A or so. There is some headroom as they change the lights themselves over to LEDs.

    Supermarkets and malls are adding chargers all the time, but if we are all going to drive EV there will need to be a lot more of them!
  • theProletheProle Posts: 537
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    2021 diesels are (unless regulated out of usability) better than anything other than really expensive 2021 EVs. Unless there is suddenly a glut of cheap brand new EVs, in about 2030 when I'm going to be at the at the point of wanting a 2021ish car I'm going to be very unlikely to be buying an EV.

    The fact that out of warranty EVs may well have the potential to turn into utter nightmares if they go wrong is the icing on the cake. I work close enough to the production teams for a couple of the manufacturers that I wouldn't touch their EVs out of warranty with someone else's barge pole.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,984

    Anti-vaxxers protest BBC coverage of pandemic by storming a building in White City. A building the BBC vacated in 2013 and is now luxury flats. Is there a link between stupidity and anti-vax? Opinions vary but evidence is growing …

    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1424744371551973380?s=20

    Firing shots at his own channel in that case which has become an anti-vaxxer paradise.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 709

    darkage said:

    The reality is that EVs are still for many people an expensive novelty. Almost everyone I know drives a cheap petrol car. An EV is going to cost you £300 plus per month in leasing/depreciation costs. A decent second hand petrol car is closer to £100 per month. Old petrol cars can be kept going for 10-20 years. EV's are not going to last as long as the battery will go and will be uneconomic to replace. For a new vehicle the argument for EVs is strong but a large proportion of people wouldn't consider buying a new car particularly as they have significantly risen in price in recent years. The demand for used cars is growing and EV's are >2% of this.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58150025

    I do not buy the saving the world argument at all. The benefits of EVs are simply to do with air quality and possibly noise. However. there is nothing at all virtuous about driving a 1.5 ton lump of metal 1 mile to work or school. When you think about it, it is absurd. Walk, cycle or get an electric scooter.

    The fundamental reason for replacing ICEs with EVs is to reduce CO2 emissions. Yes, it makes good sense to walk, cycle or use public transport if you can, but sometimes you need a car. It's those cases we're talking about.
    Isn't the argument diminished when you look at the CO2 emissions over the whole life of the car (from being built through to its recycling?). We had a petrol toyota until recently, which ran with no problems at all, did 40+ mpg and would continue to run for another 14 years as it was so well built. The idea being pushed that it should be scrapped for environmental reasons was nonsensical. We sold it because it was too large and wanted a smaller car.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 44,970
    Waiting to hear my granddaughters A level results and just praying she is able to commence her studies at Leeds University on the course she has set her heart and mind on
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186
    Here’s an idea of what can go wrong.

    Eight year old Tesla, just out of battery warranty. $30k car that needs a $20k battery replacement.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=EbrIQioiv8k
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,675
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious.
    It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.

    Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
    One can still buy roll films and 35mm. Seem to be expensive though. And, for some reason, I understand that old film cameras, such as the Brownie, are 'collectables'.
    Which is why the best of the current generation of cars, are going to be collectible in future.

    At least that’s my excuse for buying a nice car, albeit a used one.
    The real value now are the last of the naturally aspirated monsters from about 2000-2010 so M156 engined Mercs, S62/S85 engined BMWs and 3.6 997s. That era was 'peak ICE' in my opinion and are better long term ownership propositions than more modern turbos/hybrids.
    I was listening to a bunch of journalists having a discussion on ‘peak car’ the other day. The one they came up with was the 2010 997.2 GT3RS. Bonus points if you can find the 4.0 rather than the 3.8.

    I sort of agree and would like one (understatement) but what can you do with it? You can't track day it in case some knob end in a Cupra Turbo runs into the back of you (voice of experience). It costs a fortune to turn it into a race car which devalues it and no PDK which compromises its track performance. They are terrible road cars. So all you can really do is sit in it in the garage and have a wank. Which is great but I think I'd rather sink my money into a something a bit less precious for track use and/or something that's a better road car like a 997 Turbo.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 44,970
    edited August 10
    Cyclefree said:

    I certainly cannot afford to buy another car any time soon. Nor can my daughter. Or her staff. So we will keep ours going for as long as we can.

    The price of electric cars is going to have come down considerably before I can afford to make the switch, as well as needing a huge improvement in charging infrastructure, especially in rural areas.

    Incidentally, why doesn't Allegra have a petrol car rather than a diesel one? I thought the latter were even worse for the environment.

    My 2016 BMW diesel emits 119g/km and attracts a road tax of £30 pa
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805

    My 2016 BMW 520d has 119g/km emissions and I pay £30 pa road tax

    I bought it with 8 miles on the clock and it has now done 19,250 miles and I can travel the 450 miles from our home here to Lossiemouth and back to Perth without needing to refuel

    To be fair I just have no interest or incentive to change the car which is fantastic, and certainly not paying many thousands of pounds for an EV

    Sure, there is no reason to change a car that will see you out, but I wouldn't buy a new ICE car. A five year old second hand may have a usable life of another 10 years, but new? Might as well burn your money.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,226
    jayfdee said:

    ...
    I have an order in for a Kia EV6, the Koreans will dominate this market.

    The Stratton interview suggests why there's little chance of our being significant players.

  • jayfdeejayfdee Posts: 613
    theProle said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    2021 diesels are (unless regulated out of usability) better than anything other than really expensive 2021 EVs. Unless there is suddenly a glut of cheap brand new EVs, in about 2030 when I'm going to be at the at the point of wanting a 2021ish car I'm going to be very unlikely to be buying an EV.

    The fact that out of warranty EVs may well have the potential to turn into utter nightmares if they go wrong is the icing on the cake. I work close enough to the production teams for a couple of the manufacturers that I wouldn't touch their EVs out of warranty with someone else's barge pole.
    Kia already have a 7 year warranty, I think a whole new industry of technicians will evolve to maintain EVs, the used batteries will have a second life as solar panel domestic back up.
    Eventually the battery will be recycled, the Lithium will still be there to be extracted and re-used.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 44,970
    Foxy said:

    My 2016 BMW 520d has 119g/km emissions and I pay £30 pa road tax

    I bought it with 8 miles on the clock and it has now done 19,250 miles and I can travel the 450 miles from our home here to Lossiemouth and back to Perth without needing to refuel

    To be fair I just have no interest or incentive to change the car which is fantastic, and certainly not paying many thousands of pounds for an EV

    Sure, there is no reason to change a car that will see you out, but I wouldn't buy a new ICE car. A five year old second hand may have a usable life of another 10 years, but new? Might as well burn your money.
    To be fair at my age I have no incentive or desire to change my BMW but I agree I would not buy a new car of any type now
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 13,009
    Morning all! An interesting debate. My 0.02kWh:
    1. Once you go electric you don't want to go back. A gearbox is such an antiquated thing
    2. With such mechanical simplicity on an EV there is no reason why they won't run for decades. We are already seeing a successful battery upgrade programme available for 1st gen Nissan Leafs where only the battery was knackered. Slap a newer battery on and its good for another 10 years
    3. The infrastructure network is what makes EVs unattractive. Until we have a national payment scheme that works on any network AND genuine rapid chargers AND the bloody things actually work and or already in use or ICE'd then long trips in an EV are a lottery
    4. Electrification doesn't have to mean full EV for all. PHEVs are a great compromise if you need a vehicle / do trips that aren't suitable for full EV yet
    5. I don't see how we electrify trucks and farm machinery. Hydrogen needs to be looked at - its a solution for many buses.

    We now run an Ioniq EV and an Outlander PHEV. Full EV for all the shorter trips, hybrid for longer runs where long charge stops would make the long trip unviable or where the charging infrastructure is missing. Up here a vehicle with ground clearance is a Good Idea and I use both that feature and the huge internal load space regularly. If someone wants to build a full-size EV SUV and install a glut of hyper chargers, I'm interested.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 44,970
    edited August 10
    Why are off topics appearing
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 25,813
    Foxy said:

    My 2016 BMW 520d has 119g/km emissions and I pay £30 pa road tax

    I bought it with 8 miles on the clock and it has now done 19,250 miles and I can travel the 450 miles from our home here to Lossiemouth and back to Perth without needing to refuel

    To be fair I just have no interest or incentive to change the car which is fantastic, and certainly not paying many thousands of pounds for an EV

    Sure, there is no reason to change a car that will see you out, but I wouldn't buy a new ICE car. A five year old second hand may have a usable life of another 10 years, but new? Might as well burn your money.
    You can evidently afford to buy a non-ICE car.

    Many people cannot - yet.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,186
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    I am going to Glasgow HC this morning. I am taking the car because I have 4 bags and some papers. It is approximately 85 miles. I will be staying at an hotel for a few days I then have to come home again.

    In optimal conditions this should be fine for the latest generation of electric cars but, like Allegra, I am cautious. If EVs are to really take off the makers need to persuade people like me that this journey, including the sitting time, is nothing to worry about. They haven't done it yet.

    I have an electric car (not a Tesla). From fully charged, it will comfortably do 230 miles.

    If I were going to a hotel and it were (say) 100 miles away, I might call and see if they have a charger. (Spoiler, nearly all hotels do these days.) But for an 85 mile trip, I wouldn’t bother.

    Every year, the infrastructure gets better. Every year, charging rates increase. Every year, battery capacity improves. And every year the difference with an ICE narrows.
    ICE cars are going to be unsellable soon, like film cameras after digital started to beat them on quality and price. The trade in value of a 2021 diesel will be so low that you might as well burn the money.
    Not a bad comparison - and a lot of photographers denied the viability of digital long after it was obvious.
    It's true, though, that for the next few years there just won't be enough EVs for everyone, even if they wanted one.

    Which is why second hand cars are in demand, and new models not so much.
    One can still buy roll films and 35mm. Seem to be expensive though. And, for some reason, I understand that old film cameras, such as the Brownie, are 'collectables'.
    Which is why the best of the current generation of cars, are going to be collectible in future.

    At least that’s my excuse for buying a nice car, albeit a used one.
    The real value now are the last of the naturally aspirated monsters from about 2000-2010 so M156 engined Mercs, S62/S85 engined BMWs and 3.6 997s. That era was 'peak ICE' in my opinion and are better long term ownership propositions than more modern turbos/hybrids.
    I was listening to a bunch of journalists having a discussion on ‘peak car’ the other day. The one they came up with was the 2010 997.2 GT3RS. Bonus points if you can find the 4.0 rather than the 3.8.

    I sort of agree and would like one (understatement) but what can you do with it? You can't track day it in case some knob end in a Cupra Turbo runs into the back of you (voice of experience). It costs a fortune to turn it into a race car which devalues it and no PDK which compromises its track performance. They are terrible road cars. So all you can really do is sit in it in the garage and have a wank. Which is great but I think I'd rather sink my money into a something a bit less precious for track use and/or something that's a better road car like a 997 Turbo.
    Ha, genuine LOL in the middle of a work meeting.

    Personally, I’d get up at 4 in the morning, and find a good B-road while we still can.
This discussion has been closed.