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Opinium has the Midlands and the North recording the biggest falls in Boris’s approval ratings – pol

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  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    For MexicanPete

    You are so wrapped up in your loathing of Boris, and attacking me, you are unable to see a little joke..

    Don’t worry, my stalker @CorrectHorseBattery , got all upset last night about my post about cheese-graters. Apparently I was being an arrogant arse?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,766

    Bbc up to its old tricks of pretending stuff is live from the olympics. Taekwondo on bbc1 now way behind the bbc website commentary...

    Like when they pretended Boris's inch perfect performance at the Cenotaph in 2016 was 2019 (the year he made a horlicks of laying the wreath).

    Maybe if the medals tally is below expectation the beeb could rerun some ceremonies from Beijing.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114
    Candy said:



    America has a massive Irish caucus in Congress.

    It's not "massive".

    Here is the list of the Congressional Friends of Ireland:

    http://www.irishnationalcaucus.org/congressional-friends-116th-congress-2019-2021/

    36 members - 5 senators plus 31 congressmen. That's out of a Senate of 50 Senators and 435 in the House of Representatives.

    Their real test will be whether they can prevent Biden (who is supposedly Irish) from completely trashing Ireland's economic model with his global minimum tax. They're not going to waste their political capital on the NI protocol.
    Irish caucus of not they will surely be US jobs and taxes first.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,477
    edited July 2021
    Candy said:



    America has a massive Irish caucus in Congress.

    It's not "massive".

    Here is the list of the Congressional Friends of Ireland:

    http://www.irishnationalcaucus.org/congressional-friends-116th-congress-2019-2021/

    36 members - 5 senators plus 31 congressmen. That's out of a Senate of 50 Senators and 435 in the House of Representatives.

    Their real test will be whether they can prevent Biden (who is supposedly Irish) from completely trashing Ireland's economic model with his global minimum tax. They're not going to waste their political capital on the NI protocol.
    Loads of them are Dems and in favour of the global minimum tax rate. It's almost as if being "Irish" is just a fake identity they use to get votes.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,881
    edited July 2021
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    .

    Johnson cannot stop being Johnson. His ratings will move up and down. The concern for the country - if not the Tories, who are not interested in the country - is that the government is entirely incoherent because Johnson is Johnson. Javid and Sunak are clearly manoeuvring for what they believe is a leadership election that will come sooner rather than later, while we have genuine simpletons in control of education and the Home Office. The challenges are coming thick and fast - and will only intensify come the autumn, when it looks like Lord Frost and his boss are intent on another battle with the EU. We are going to get more divided over the coming period, not less.

    Peston said on Thursday, throughout his career, be that in journalism or in politics, whenever he is on the ropes, Johnson picks fights with the EU. It is his safety net. From his fictional ban of pink sausages to his renegotiation of the NI Protocol, this wizard wheeze serves to secure his tenure in his job and bolster his popularity.
    Yes, Brexit is not Done, it is the Forever War.
    I imagine people will be flocking to see The Forever Purge in cinemas - it's about a corrupt elite being destroyed as they cannot control what they unleashed.
    I haven't seen it, my reference was to the classic Sci-fi antiwar novel "The Forever War" in which the earth government keeps a pointless war going against an overhyped enemy partly because it finds it economically useful, and partly out of habit and sunk costs.
    Yes, a good novel, though I wonder how the section where the protagonist (who is experiencing time differently) finds himself in a period where being gay is near universal and practically mandatory would fly now.

    The sequel Forever Free was terrible. My copy comes with Forever Peace, which is apparently not actually connected.
    I think Aldemann based it on his own experiences of serving in Vietnam, returning to a different society to the one that he left. Certainly the book is of its time (!) in its attitudes to sex and homosexuality, but while the main character is non-plussed by the shift to homosexuality (encouraged by the earth government for population reasons) he shrugs and it doesn't particularly seem to bother him.

    Older novels often have attitudes that are discordant with current times, and reasonable to critique these, but they don't invalidate the book entirely. Otherwise we would have to scrap most literature!
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 15,575
    edited July 2021
    Charles any thoughts on the former Tory councillor accidentally awarded £276m of PPE contracts without tender? As the Times report that one of the contracts has delivered just 0.26% of items but your colleague has spent the loot on a mansion, should there at the very least not be a mechanism to recoup the cash?

    You reassured us that everything is scrupulously above board (does that include the NAO-reported "VIP fast-track for Tory friends and donors?). I would assume that as with any other contract you actually have to deliver to get the cash, or have a clawback mechanism?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    And I'd remind the pb tory crowing cheerleaders that the World Health Organisation have issued a stark warning about what's happening in the UK. The point here is that because we have 45% of the population unvaccinated and YET are fully unlocking we are creating the perfect conditions for this virus to mutate and side-step vaccines. The UK is a threat to the world. That's not me, that's WHO.

    We're making a huge mistake that could have global consequences. Johnson is too stupid and too idle to realise this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/16/englands-covid-unlocking-a-threat-to-the-world-experts-say

    That’s good news. If China’s puppets the WHO are opposed that suggests Johnson is for once making a good call.
    As I say above, it’s not the WHO. @Cocky_cockney often makes good points, but in this case he has confused the WHO with Cosplay SAGE and The Citizens.
    Bugger. That’s disappointing. Although truthfully, that lot being opposed is also a good sign.

    However, the key target should be those 11% of unvaxxed adults, plus getting second doses into the arms of the 20% or so who have had only one jab.

    Once that is done, and boosters if necessary, then it will be time to take stock of where to go next.

    I have to say, personally I probably would have vaccinated under 18s. But it was a marginal call. If they are abolishing the isolation requirement for under 18s, it becomes an even more marginal call.

    Arguably the best reason for doing it is that then jabs could be administered to Year 8s in school from hereafter if we did, which would be simpler and quicker than GP centres. But that does presuppose the vaccine effect lasts for decades, and we’re seeing signs it may not.
    You do 16-18 year olds when they return to school
    Why wait until then?

    Give them the first dose now and they could have some protection *before* they return to school.
    JCVI view was more valuable to focus on persuading the recalcitrants.

    Also much more efficient and comprehensive to do them all on site in one go
    Well, they could have done that with the first dose before the summer break. But also, I’d rather scoop as many A-level students up now rather than waiting until September, to reduce the chances of schools being arbitrarily shut again next term.

    Which is where the first part of the equation comes in. They worried that if rates of vaccination started going up (because you are jabbing lots of kids) people would lose focus on the difficult to reach adults
    "...people would lose focus on the difficult to reach adults"

    Which 'people'?

    Are you just making this up or do you have any evidence this is what actually shaped JCVI thinking? (I note the last published JCVI minutes are from April 2021.)
    I saw an article on it, so not a primary source. My google skills are not great but will see if I can track it down.

    “People” was a loose way of say the focus of the vaccination effort (marketing, targeting, logistics, jabbing) should be on persuading people 18+ who have not yet been jabbed to get vaccinated. I suppose the implication is that if you switch to jabbing teenagers that’s quite easy so you lose focus and momentum in the harder but more valuable jabs in older groups.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114

    Sunak and Johnson's personal attempts to avoid self-isolation will only look half as bad if case numbers continue to fall.


    That's it, that's my only hot take on the matter.

    No, the point isn't about their genius foresight in predicting Covid is over.

    The problem that will remain is there was one rule for them and another, more Draconian rule for the rest of us.
    That’s the issue and that is why it was potentially so damaging. Remains to be seen if it has a long term impact. At least they had the sense to climb down after a couple,of,hours. It was still a needless own goal. Something this govt is rather good at.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    edited July 2021
    Taz said:

    Sunak and Johnson's personal attempts to avoid self-isolation will only look half as bad if case numbers continue to fall.


    That's it, that's my only hot take on the matter.

    No, the point isn't about their genius foresight in predicting Covid is over.

    The problem that will remain is there was one rule for them and another, more Draconian rule for the rest of us.
    That’s the issue and that is why it was potentially so damaging. Remains to be seen if it has a long term impact. At least they had the sense to climb down after a couple,of,hours. It was still a needless own goal. Something this govt is rather good at.
    Boris needs a Willie.....;)

    Yes, Mexicanpete its a JOKE...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,088
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    moonshine said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    DougSeal said:

    ydoethur said:

    And I'd remind the pb tory crowing cheerleaders that the World Health Organisation have issued a stark warning about what's happening in the UK. The point here is that because we have 45% of the population unvaccinated and YET are fully unlocking we are creating the perfect conditions for this virus to mutate and side-step vaccines. The UK is a threat to the world. That's not me, that's WHO.

    We're making a huge mistake that could have global consequences. Johnson is too stupid and too idle to realise this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/16/englands-covid-unlocking-a-threat-to-the-world-experts-say

    That’s good news. If China’s puppets the WHO are opposed that suggests Johnson is for once making a good call.
    As I say above, it’s not the WHO. @Cocky_cockney often makes good points, but in this case he has confused the WHO with Cosplay SAGE and The Citizens.
    Bugger. That’s disappointing. Although truthfully, that lot being opposed is also a good sign.

    However, the key target should be those 11% of unvaxxed adults, plus getting second doses into the arms of the 20% or so who have had only one jab.

    Once that is done, and boosters if necessary, then it will be time to take stock of where to go next.

    I have to say, personally I probably would have vaccinated under 18s. But it was a marginal call. If they are abolishing the isolation requirement for under 18s, it becomes an even more marginal call.

    Arguably the best reason for doing it is that then jabs could be administered to Year 8s in school from hereafter if we did, which would be simpler and quicker than GP centres. But that does presuppose the vaccine effect lasts for decades, and we’re seeing signs it may not.
    You do 16-18 year olds when they return to school
    Why wait until then?

    Give them the first dose now and they could have some protection *before* they return to school.
    JCVI view was more valuable to focus on persuading the recalcitrants.

    Also much more efficient and comprehensive to do them all on site in one go
    Well, they could have done that with the first dose before the summer break. But also, I’d rather scoop as many A-level students up now rather than waiting until September, to reduce the chances of schools being arbitrarily shut again next term.

    Which is where the first part of the equation comes in. They worried that if rates of vaccination started going up (because you are jabbing lots of kids) people would lose focus on the difficult to reach adults
    "...people would lose focus on the difficult to reach adults"

    Which 'people'?

    Are you just making this up or do you have any evidence this is what actually shaped JCVI thinking? (I note the last published JCVI minutes are from April 2021.)
    I saw an article on it, so not a primary source. My google skills are not great but will see if I can track it down.

    “People” was a loose way of say the focus of the vaccination effort (marketing, targeting, logistics, jabbing) should be on persuading people 18+ who have not yet been jabbed to get vaccinated. I suppose the implication is that if you switch to jabbing teenagers that’s quite easy so you lose focus and momentum in the harder but more valuable jabs in older groups.
    Ok thanks. I appreciate your view is sincerely held but I think if that's JCVI's real driver it's pretty disappointing that the UK cannot vaccinate teenagers *and* pursue the vaccine prevaricators.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,317
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    .

    Johnson cannot stop being Johnson. His ratings will move up and down. The concern for the country - if not the Tories, who are not interested in the country - is that the government is entirely incoherent because Johnson is Johnson. Javid and Sunak are clearly manoeuvring for what they believe is a leadership election that will come sooner rather than later, while we have genuine simpletons in control of education and the Home Office. The challenges are coming thick and fast - and will only intensify come the autumn, when it looks like Lord Frost and his boss are intent on another battle with the EU. We are going to get more divided over the coming period, not less.

    Peston said on Thursday, throughout his career, be that in journalism or in politics, whenever he is on the ropes, Johnson picks fights with the EU. It is his safety net. From his fictional ban of pink sausages to his renegotiation of the NI Protocol, this wizard wheeze serves to secure his tenure in his job and bolster his popularity.
    Yes, Brexit is not Done, it is the Forever War.
    I imagine people will be flocking to see The Forever Purge in cinemas - it's about a corrupt elite being destroyed as they cannot control what they unleashed.
    I haven't seen it, my reference was to the classic Sci-fi antiwar novel "The Forever War" in which the earth government keeps a pointless war going against an overhyped enemy partly because it finds it economically useful, and partly out of habit and sunk costs.
    Yes, a good novel, though I wonder how the section where the protagonist (who is experiencing time differently) finds himself in a period where being gay is near universal and practically mandatory would fly now.

    The sequel Forever Free was terrible. My copy comes with Forever Peace, which is apparently not actually connected.
    I think Aldemann based it on his own experiences of serving in Vietnam, returning to a different society to the one that he left. Certainly the book is of its time (!) in its attitudes to sex and homosexuality, but while the main character is non-plussed by the shift to homosexuality (encouraged by the earth government for population reasons) he shrugs and it doesn't particularly seem to bother him.

    Older novels often have attitudes that are discordant with current times, and reasonable to critique these, but they don't invalidate the book entirely. Otherwise we would have to scrap most literature!
    Oh I agree completely, but I bet in these finger wagging times many would disagree.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 15,380

    Sunak and Johnson's personal attempts to avoid self-isolation will only look half as bad if case numbers continue to fall.


    That's it, that's my only hot take on the matter.

    Why? It didn't look bad because people were worried he'd get it!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 13,766

    For MexicanPete

    You are so wrapped up in your loathing of Boris, and attacking me, you are unable to see a little joke..

    Whereas your assertion that I am not bright enough to understand your "little joke" would hold up in court on the basis of my being foolish enough to have voted Remain, and having never voted Conservative, I did attempt to parry your little joke with a little (failed) humour of my own.

    Good morning.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,513
    TOPPING said:

    Very interesting Jade Jones knocked out of the Olympics by an athlete representing the "EOR" which is a composite team of refugees.

    Yes, that is interesting. The BBC is calling it the Refugee Olympic Team (ROT); I'd never heard of it. Jones was beaten by an Iranian refugee based in Germany. I wonder if there are any UK-based refugees in the ROT? Priti Patel may know.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2021

    Charles any thoughts on the former Tory councillor accidentally awarded £276m of PPE contracts without tender? As the Times report that one of the contracts has delivered just 0.26% of items but your colleague has spent the loot on a mansion, should there at the very least not be a mechanism to recoup the cash?

    You reassured us that everything is scrupulously above board (does that include the NAO-reported "VIP fast-track for Tory friends and donors?). I would assume that as with any other contract you actually have to deliver to get the cash, or have a clawback mechanism?

    I’ve not idea about this case. I scrupulously avoided getting involved with PPE - lots of people asked me to help - because I had no way of judging whether they were legit or not so decided not to put my reputation on the line for anyone.

    More generally things were being sourced very fast and I am sure that mistakes were made. Prices were high and volatile and you needed to move very quickly to secure supply when available. Unfortunately that’s the nature of the grey market.

    There isn’t anything wrong with the vip track per se (it’s effectively saying “this is a legitimate counter party as I have dealt with them in the past”). I would hope that the contracts had claw backs etc if the supplied product didn’t meet specifications.

    Sad to say there were a lot of people who were “the sort of men who did well out of the war”. Distasteful, but if they didn’t break the law there’s not much we can do about it. But their name should go on a list so that they get no public preferment in future

    Edit: also not sure why you refer to this person as “my colleague”? I’m not in government or a member of the Tory party. I’m just a middle aged right of centre bloke posting on a politics website
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,944
    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    For MexicanPete

    You are so wrapped up in your loathing of Boris, and attacking me, you are unable to see a little joke..

    Whereas your assertion that I am not bright enough to understand your "little joke" would hold up in court on the basis of my being foolish enough to have voted Remain, and having never voted Conservative, I did attempt to parry your little joke with a little (failed) humour of my own.

    Good morning.
    As I say... and ..... You forget that I voted remain...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    The UK's voice within the EU was always more theoretical than effective. As Bush and Blair found during the Iraq War etc
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 15,575
    Charles said:

    Charles any thoughts on the former Tory councillor accidentally awarded £276m of PPE contracts without tender? As the Times report that one of the contracts has delivered just 0.26% of items but your colleague has spent the loot on a mansion, should there at the very least not be a mechanism to recoup the cash?

    You reassured us that everything is scrupulously above board (does that include the NAO-reported "VIP fast-track for Tory friends and donors?). I would assume that as with any other contract you actually have to deliver to get the cash, or have a clawback mechanism?

    I’ve not idea about this case. I scrupulously avoided getting involved with PPE - lots of people asked me to help - because I had no way of judging whether they were legit or not so decided not to put my reputation on the line for anyone.

    More generally things were being sourced very fast and I am sure that mistakes were made. Prices were high and volatile and you needed to move very quickly to secure supply when available. Unfortunately that’s the nature of the grey market.

    There isn’t anything wrong with the vip track per se (it’s effectively saying “this is a legitimate counter party as I have dealt with them in the past”). I would hope that the contracts had claw backs etc if the supplied product didn’t meet specifications.

    Sad to say there were a lot of people who were “the sort of men who did well out of the war”. Distasteful, but if they didn’t break the law there’s not much we can do about it. But their name should go on a list so that they get no public preferment in future

    Edit: also not sure why you refer to this person as “my colleague”? I’m not in government or a member of the Tory party. I’m just a middle aged right of centre bloke posting on a politics website
    You're attacking the people criticising (at best) a contract that paid £120m for nothing and not the contract or the people who made it?

    Apologies if you're not a Tory member (any more?) - thought you were.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,944

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    The UK's voice within the EU was always more theoretical than effective. As Bush and Blair found during the Iraq War etc
    I think that the UK's voice would be more likely to be effective over something where they are right (China; Russia) than over something where we were wrong (Iraq).

    But, regardless, many people believed in the theoretical effectiveness, and that is why Biden will regret it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,920
    How does one find the full report for Opinium polls?

    Thanks.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2021

    Charles said:

    Charles any thoughts on the former Tory councillor accidentally awarded £276m of PPE contracts without tender? As the Times report that one of the contracts has delivered just 0.26% of items but your colleague has spent the loot on a mansion, should there at the very least not be a mechanism to recoup the cash?

    You reassured us that everything is scrupulously above board (does that include the NAO-reported "VIP fast-track for Tory friends and donors?). I would assume that as with any other contract you actually have to deliver to get the cash, or have a clawback mechanism?

    I’ve not idea about this case. I scrupulously avoided getting involved with PPE - lots of people asked me to help - because I had no way of judging whether they were legit or not so decided not to put my reputation on the line for anyone.

    More generally things were being sourced very fast and I am sure that mistakes were made. Prices were high and volatile and you needed to move very quickly to secure supply when available. Unfortunately that’s the nature of the grey market.

    There isn’t anything wrong with the vip track per se (it’s effectively saying “this is a legitimate counter party as I have dealt with them in the past”). I would hope that the contracts had claw backs etc if the supplied product didn’t meet specifications.

    Sad to say there were a lot of people who were “the sort of men who did well out of the war”. Distasteful, but if they didn’t break the law there’s not much we can do about it. But their name should go on a list so that they get no public preferment in future

    Edit: also not sure why you refer to this person as “my colleague”? I’m not in government or a member of the Tory party. I’m just a middle aged right of centre bloke posting on a politics website
    You're attacking the people criticising (at best) a contract that paid £120m for nothing and not the contract or the people who made it?

    Apologies if you're not a Tory member (any more?) - thought you were.
    I’m not attacking anyone. Except for the shady middle men who made a lot of money for not doing very much. So confused by your response.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 11,487
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Johnson cannot stop being Johnson. His ratings will move up and down. The concern for the country - if not the Tories, who are not interested in the country - is that the government is entirely incoherent because Johnson is Johnson. Javid and Sunak are clearly manoeuvring for what they believe is a leadership election that will come sooner rather than later, while we have genuine simpletons in control of education and the Home Office. The challenges are coming thick and fast - and will only intensify come the autumn, when it looks like Lord Frost and his boss are intent on another battle with the EU. We are going to get more divided over the coming period, not less.

    Good post. The cycle is set. Every time there is a problem, the government will reach for a battle with the EU.
    There is history here. Jim Hacker fought the EU over sausages.Boris is doing it now.
    A post further demonstrating your complete and total inability to grasp reality.

    "Yes Prime Minister" was not a documentary.
    It might, and call me crazy here, just be possible he was making a joke?

    I assume you too are joking, unless you genuinely believe they think Jim Hacker was a real PM.
    Yes Minister was not a documentary but we have been told that many of its plots were based on things which really happened in the 1960s and 70s. In unrelated news, Lord Donoughue was an adviser to Harold Wilson, and to the programme makers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,778
    It's a little sad that one of the lamentations of our departure is that we aren't there to point out to Germany and France that perhaps it's unwise to be cuddling up to a land that's got concentration camps and is our adversary in a new Cold War.

    Not that our own conduct regarding China has been robust and farseeing over the last decade or two, although it's recently improved.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,920
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: A former Tory councillor won £120m emergency contract for PPE whose quality was so doubtful none was used last year

    To date, 0.26% of 120m items ordered have been sent to the NHS

    Yet Steve Dechan was still able to buy a majestic Cotswolds estate

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/638e017c-ecac-11eb-a9f0-ebe3f77d4a7e?shareToken=622b32a8dc9cf2fdda3ad72ffb2d48ce

    Link does not seem to go anywhere.

    Do they have anything about him having received money for items he has not delivered, and spent it on the Cotswolds' Estate?

    Though the local paper reports £1.5m, which for the Cotswolds won't be much of an Estate.
    https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/18892090.stroud-businessman-steve-dechan-responds-sunday-times-investigation/

    It also seems his existing business was a medical devices company.

    More information on the claims, and what has happened in the 9 months since the piece that doesn't seem to appear on the link was published, might be helpful :smile:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,881

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,114
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: A former Tory councillor won £120m emergency contract for PPE whose quality was so doubtful none was used last year

    To date, 0.26% of 120m items ordered have been sent to the NHS

    Yet Steve Dechan was still able to buy a majestic Cotswolds estate

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/638e017c-ecac-11eb-a9f0-ebe3f77d4a7e?shareToken=622b32a8dc9cf2fdda3ad72ffb2d48ce

    Link does not seem to go anywhere.

    Do they have anything about him having received money for items he has not delivered, and spent it on the Cotswolds' Estate?

    Though the local paper reports £1.5m, which for the Cotswolds won't be much of an Estate.
    https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/18892090.stroud-businessman-steve-dechan-responds-sunday-times-investigation/

    It also seems his existing business was a medical devices company.

    Much to see here?
    Throw enough mud and some will stick.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,115

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    The UK's voice within the EU was always more theoretical than effective. As Bush and Blair found during the Iraq War etc
    That my friend is my friend doesn't preclude me from telling him he's made a damn' fool decision. As a real friend would do, of course.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,944
    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    It's too late for us to use the carrot to encourage China to mend its ways, because China doesn't need the carrot anymore. It's now strong enough to get what it wants and we didn't use that leverage when it might have been effective - because we were too busy competing with each other for a slice of the China economy.

    Biden realises this and there's not much sign of conciliation in his approach to China.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,923
    edited July 2021
    Foxy said:



    I think Aldemann based it on his own experiences of serving in Vietnam, returning to a different society to the one that he left. Certainly the book is of its time (!) in its attitudes to sex and homosexuality, but while the main character is non-plussed by the shift to homosexuality (encouraged by the earth government for population reasons) he shrugs and it doesn't particularly seem to bother him.

    Older novels often have attitudes that are discordant with current times, and reasonable to critique these, but they don't invalidate the book entirely. Otherwise we would have to scrap most literature!

    Ethan of Arthos, by the mildly liberal Lois Bujold McMaster (best known for the Miles Vorkosigan series), flirted with controversy by having a novel about an entirely male gay planet, terrified of women, needing to contact other planets for urgent survival reasons. I thought it was charming , funny and successfully avoiding all the obvious traps; gay friends quite liked it but were more equivocal. I'm not sure it would be well-received today.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: A former Tory councillor won £120m emergency contract for PPE whose quality was so doubtful none was used last year

    To date, 0.26% of 120m items ordered have been sent to the NHS

    Yet Steve Dechan was still able to buy a majestic Cotswolds estate

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/638e017c-ecac-11eb-a9f0-ebe3f77d4a7e?shareToken=622b32a8dc9cf2fdda3ad72ffb2d48ce

    Link does not seem to go anywhere.

    Do they have anything about him having received money for items he has not delivered, and spent it on the Cotswolds' Estate?

    Though the local paper reports £1.5m, which for the Cotswolds won't be much of an Estate.
    https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/18892090.stroud-businessman-steve-dechan-responds-sunday-times-investigation/

    It also seems his existing business was a medical devices company.

    More information on the claims, and what has happened in the 9 months since the piece that doesn't seem to appear on the link was published, might be helpful :smile:
    I think I saw elsewhere that it’s not that the product wasn’t delivered, but that it was out of spec. But don’t know any more than that
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,944
    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    The assumption that to be pro-Irish, or just Irish, is to be anti-British is an inherently depressing attitude.
    Fintan O'Toole has written a lot over the Brexit years about how Irish national identity needs to grow beyond "not being English", and in a few other ways too. And I think there's been a lot of progress in recent years, but the way in which Northern Ireland and Brexit is being handled puts that at risk.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,920
    edited July 2021
    Following the demonstration video, posted by @Foxy earlier, I came across this excellent Twitter video thread by the same video-reporter exploring in detail anti-lockdown infiltration / exploitation of the Clapham Common vigil for Sarah Everard.

    It felt whiffy at the time with Patsye Stevenson shown on Sky footage inciting the crowd to ignore the police.

    This is in far more detail, and it even has Piers Corbyn turning up to try and make a speech.

    I have no idea who Mark Lister is (anyone?). Perhaps a slight Brian Whelan when freelancing / more newsy Mark Thomas feel to it.

    I would be very interested in your assessment, @Cyclefree .

    https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1380169852292378630
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 11,487
    edited July 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Cummings's critique is filtering through, despite almost everyone apparently having been vaccinated against the Cummings virus.

    Montgomerie was very critical on LBC yesterday, and also reporting anecdotally that everyone inside Number Ten is now worrying about the PM's failings. Westminster Hour on R4 yesterday had a review of the year and also contained criticism of the PM from Fraser Nelson, as well as all of the political commentators interviewed.

    I fear this may be partly my fault for pointing out that Boris had pinched the popular parts of Jeremy Corbyn's 2017 platform and had run against Cameron and May. Now even some Conservative MPs (and newspaper columnists) seem to be wondering just what they signed up to.

    This is exacerbated by Boris in pursuit of Brexit having slung out a good many One Nation conservatives who might be sympathetic to his programme. Boris tilted the party to the right in pursuit of Brexit. And the party in the country also expanded rapidly. Don't say entryism!

    So Boris was elected to invest, and Covid has demanded even more money be injected into the economy. But there are backbenchers (and some in the Cabinet) who remember Thatcherism and even Osbornism. Further complicating matters are red wall MPs who want investment in their constituencies as part of the levelling up agenda (which as explained by Boris seems to be a slogan rather than a carefully prepared policy).

    But I do not see Boris being forced out. I do expect him to retire before the next general election which must be held by the end of 2024.

    ETA this is quite beside any personal flaws of the sort claimed by Dominic Cummings or anyone else.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 1,030

    TOPPING said:

    Very interesting Jade Jones knocked out of the Olympics by an athlete representing the "EOR" which is a composite team of refugees.

    Yes, that is interesting. The BBC is calling it the Refugee Olympic Team (ROT); I'd never heard of it. Jones was beaten by an Iranian refugee based in Germany. I wonder if there are any UK-based refugees in the ROT? Priti Patel may know.
    In the rowing team?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,317

    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    It's too late for us to use the carrot to encourage China to mend its ways, because China doesn't need the carrot anymore. It's now strong enough to get what it wants and we didn't use that leverage when it might have been effective - because we were too busy competing with each other for a slice of the China economy.

    Biden realises this and there's not much sign of conciliation in his approach to China.
    China needs to be contained. Whether this will involve war is an open question. But the West needs to do everything possible to reduce dependence on China and make it harder for it to dominate.
  • Some people here who frankly should know better are now going off Boris Johnson because he's an incapable and useless leader. This was all known years ago yet you voted for him anyway.

    Yes you had him up against Corbyn but now Corbyn has gone. So what is your excuse now?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,920
    MattW said:

    Following the demonstration video, posted by @Foxy earlier, I came across this excellent Twitter video thread by the same video-reporter exploring in detail anti-lockdown infiltration / exploitation of the Clapham Common vigil for Sarah Everard.

    It felt whiffy at the time with Patsye Stevenson shown on Sky footage inciting the crowd to ignore the police.

    This is in far more detail, and it even has Piers Corbyn turning up to try and make a speech.

    I have no idea who Mark Lister is (anyone?). Perhaps a slight Brian Whelan when freelancing / more newsy Mark Thomas feel to it.

    I would be very interested in your assessment, @Cyclefree .

    https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1380169852292378630

    He's actually made a 2 hour report about it:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfDGazsQr3U
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Some people here who frankly should know better are now going off Boris Johnson because he's an incapable and useless leader. This was all known years ago yet you voted for him anyway.

    Yes you had him up against Corbyn but now Corbyn has gone. So what is your excuse now?

    Why don’t you name names. Far better than screaming into the wind
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,849
    Taz said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    EXC: A former Tory councillor won £120m emergency contract for PPE whose quality was so doubtful none was used last year

    To date, 0.26% of 120m items ordered have been sent to the NHS

    Yet Steve Dechan was still able to buy a majestic Cotswolds estate

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/638e017c-ecac-11eb-a9f0-ebe3f77d4a7e?shareToken=622b32a8dc9cf2fdda3ad72ffb2d48ce

    Link does not seem to go anywhere.

    Do they have anything about him having received money for items he has not delivered, and spent it on the Cotswolds' Estate?

    Though the local paper reports £1.5m, which for the Cotswolds won't be much of an Estate.
    https://www.stroudnewsandjournal.co.uk/news/18892090.stroud-businessman-steve-dechan-responds-sunday-times-investigation/

    It also seems his existing business was a medical devices company.

    Much to see here?
    Throw enough mud and some will stick.
    It worked for Scottish Labour for half a century.

    Then it didn’t.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 15,380

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    I'm not sure France is as intimidated as Biden is. A couple of years ago Xi Jinping came to France to meet Macron in a villa on Cap Ferrat. Somehow the police managed to remove all the traffic from Nice to Monaco. It's never looked so idyllic. The most beautiful coastline in the world with manicured villas and boats bobbling in the harbours but no traffic anywhere to be seen. He must have thought he'd arrived in heaven. Smiling pictures of the two of them on all the TV stations with the Mediterranian backdrop. My guess is he's currently looking for his retirement pad
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,881
    edited July 2021

    Foxy said:



    I think Aldemann based it on his own experiences of serving in Vietnam, returning to a different society to the one that he left. Certainly the book is of its time (!) in its attitudes to sex and homosexuality, but while the main character is non-plussed by the shift to homosexuality (encouraged by the earth government for population reasons) he shrugs and it doesn't particularly seem to bother him.

    Older novels often have attitudes that are discordant with current times, and reasonable to critique these, but they don't invalidate the book entirely. Otherwise we would have to scrap most literature!

    Ethan of Arthos, by the mildly liberal Lois Bujold McMaster (best known for the Miles Vorkosigan series), flirted with controversy by having a novel about an entirely male gay planet, terrified of women, needing to contact other planets for urgent survival reasons. I thought it was charming , funny and successfully avoiding all the obvious traps; gay friends quite liked it but were more equivocal. I'm not sure it would be well-received today.
    Sounds interesting. I shall add it to my classic sci-fi reading list. I like sci-fi that uses the format to explore ideas via alternative worlds.

    I read Edmund Coopers "Who Needs Men?" some decades ago, about a future Britain where the remaining men are being hunted down by lesbian exterminators as an irredeemable violent threat. The sexual politics of that are more than a bit dubious, particularly when one of the hunters is converted to heterosexuality by meeting a real man!

    Sci fi does seem a particularly male genre, so nice to get a female recommendation.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,920
    edited July 2021
    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    Do you know whether our recognition of the Government of China is de facto or de jure? I don't, and I'm not sure where I would find out.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,732
    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,831

    TOPPING said:

    Very interesting Jade Jones knocked out of the Olympics by an athlete representing the "EOR" which is a composite team of refugees.

    Yes, that is interesting. The BBC is calling it the Refugee Olympic Team (ROT); I'd never heard of it. Jones was beaten by an Iranian refugee based in Germany. I wonder if there are any UK-based refugees in the ROT? Priti Patel may know.
    It was invented for 2016, but appears to be a permanent fixture. I agree, I think it's a nice touch and allows them to represent themselves properly since either their country of origin (where they have fled from) not country of residence (where they may feel no real affinity for) might not be right.
  • And approval ratings are now irrelevant, because Starmer is now leading Johnson?

    A few weeks ago, Starmer's ratings were a resigning matter for many on here, a guaranteed loser many said. Now he's recovering and BoJo is falling, I am sure consistency will be retained, as it always is!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    It's too late for us to use the carrot to encourage China to mend its ways, because China doesn't need the carrot anymore. It's now strong enough to get what it wants and we didn't use that leverage when it might have been effective - because we were too busy competing with each other for a slice of the China economy.

    Biden realises this and there's not much sign of conciliation in his approach to China.
    China needs to be contained. Whether this will involve war is an open question. But the West needs to do everything possible to reduce dependence on China and make it harder for it to dominate.
    Exactly

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,312
    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    Isn't the number of reinfections less than 1% ?

    Not to mention that almost all of those infected last spring wouldn't be counted as a reinfection as they were not officially infected.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,077
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    The risk of an under 18 becoming seriously ill from Covid, even the delta variant, is infinitesimally small. The risk of them having a significant adverse reaction to the vaccine is similarly small but can you ethically justify giving them the vaccine in light of that risk and the miniscule reward (for them)? I think its a genuinely difficult question. There is an argument that under 18s will form a reservoir of the virus infecting those stupid enough not to be vaccinated and thus exposing them to harm but the prescribing doctor needs to be satisfied it is in the patients interests.

    I think that we will probably look to offer to vaccinate 16-18 year old's who are old enough to make an informed choice. My son had his first vaccine whilst still 17 so to some extent this is happening already. I doubt we will look to vaccinate those younger than that.

    It's not infinitesimally small. It's small, but not that small.

    According to the CDC, who seem to have the most accessible information on this in 2020/21 in the US 337 children of 17 or under died in deaths "related to Covid". In the same time period a total of 601,124 people of all ages died in deaths related to Covid in the US so children formed 0.056% of deaths. Given that the overall death rate of recorded cases in the US is 1.7% that suggests to me that the risk of death, at least, is infinitesimally small for children. To put into further into perspective there are 50,488 deaths of children for all causes in the same period in the US. It seems extremely likely to me that all of these children will have had co-morbidities but I am struggling to extract that from the data.
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

    I fully accept that the risk of serious illness is greater than death but the risks of an adverse vaccination effect and serious illness from Covid are likely, in my view, to be in sufficiently close proximity to make this a difficult call by the medical profession.
  • Zoey isn't showing the fall in infections, which is...odd?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954
    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    The dashboard itself says, in terms of cases by date reported (the headline figure) that it represents -

    “ Number of people who have had at least one positive COVID-19 test result either lab-reported or lateral flow device (England only), by date reported. Positive rapid lateral flow test results can be confirmed with PCR tests taken within 72 hours. If the PCR test results are negative, these are not reported as cases. People tested positive more than once are only counted once. (my emphasis)”

    https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/cases

    However, I doubt it seriously understates the actual number of infections. The latest PHE study says -

    “ Reinfections, as identified in the survey, have been rare up to 5 June 2021. The rate of reinfections is provided per 100,000 participant days of risk. This is calculated by dividing the number of reinfections identified by the cumulative number of participants days from the first time a participant became at risk for reinfection to their last test in the survey to date. The estimated rate for all reinfections was 15.2 per 100,000 participant days at risk (95% confidence interval: 12.7 to 18.0) over the entire at-risk period. The estimated rate for reinfections with a strong positive test (with Ct less than 30) was 2.7 per 100,000 participant days at risk (95% confidence interval: 1.8 to 4.1) over the entire at-risk period (accompanying dataset 1a).”

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticleanalysisofreinfectionsofcovid19/june2021#number-of-reinfections-identified
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 39,240
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    Do you know whether our recognition of the Government of China is de facto or de jure? I don't, and I'm not sure where I would find out.
    Surely most of the world recognised the PRC in 1971 when it took over the ROC's (ie. Taiwan's) seat on the UN Security Council?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,849
    Rachel Reeves knows how to revive the Bulwark of the Union, the Scottish Labour Party.

    Her recipe for success is… wait for it… drum roll… Blairism!

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/7451821/labour-scots-support-blairs-election-strategy/amp/

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image

    image
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,317
    MattW said:

    Following the demonstration video, posted by @Foxy earlier, I came across this excellent Twitter video thread by the same video-reporter exploring in detail anti-lockdown infiltration / exploitation of the Clapham Common vigil for Sarah Everard.

    It felt whiffy at the time with Patsye Stevenson shown on Sky footage inciting the crowd to ignore the police.

    This is in far more detail, and it even has Piers Corbyn turning up to try and make a speech.o it

    I have no idea who Mark Lister is (anyone?). Perhaps a slight Brian Whelan when freelancing / more newsy Mark Thomas feel to it.

    I would be very interested in your assessment, @Cyclefree .

    https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1380169852292378630

    The fact that this vigil was infiltrated is not a surprise. This a risk with all sorts of high profile vigils and demonstrations. It is one reason why it might have been more sensible for the police to have worked with the organisers rather than get into a court fight etc.

    There were two assessments of how the police managed the situation: one was by HCMICFRS which gave the police the benefit of the doubt - https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/news/news-feed/metropolitan-police-acted-appropriately-at-the-sarah-everard-vigil/ - and one by an all-Party Commons Committee which didn't.

    But it is also infuriating because it allows people to focus on the infiltrators etc and ignore or downplay the very real concerns which women had about safety, about the threat of violence and about the police's attitude to it. The discussion focuses on those who attach themselves to every cause going to make it about them and not about the real issues.

    There is a very real problem with violence directed at women and how the police and other authorities deal with it. There is also a problem within the Met about its culture, its vetting of its officers and how it deals with complaints. People like this who infiltrate causes are parasitic narcissists.

    Now - let's get back to considering what should be done about violence and threats of violence towards women. On which topic, this article by Alex Massie - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-death-threats-dont-sit-on-the-right-side-of-history-932582lw3 - is both very good and very timely.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 39,240

    TOPPING said:

    Very interesting Jade Jones knocked out of the Olympics by an athlete representing the "EOR" which is a composite team of refugees.

    Yes, that is interesting. The BBC is calling it the Refugee Olympic Team (ROT); I'd never heard of it. Jones was beaten by an Iranian refugee based in Germany. I wonder if there are any UK-based refugees in the ROT? Priti Patel may know.
    The ROT first took part at Rio in 2016.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,881
    edited July 2021

    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    Isn't the number of reinfections less than 1% ?

    Not to mention that almost all of those infected last spring wouldn't be counted as a reinfection as they were not officially infected.
    I suspect higher than that. I know a few who have had it twice, including one double jabbed.

    Further anecdata: I was working yesterday with a nurse whose sister, mother and neices have all tested positive, the 74 yr old mother poorly and at home. Sister and mother were both double jabbed with the extended interval. I think the vaccine is better at preventing hospitalisation than transmission. In time all the unvaxxed will get it, I suppose, probably the vaxxed too. Herd immunity seems a long way off.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 31,044
    edited July 2021
    Charles said:



    I saw an article on it, so not a primary source. My google skills are not great but will see if I can track it down.

    “People” was a loose way of say the focus of the vaccination effort (marketing, targeting, logistics, jabbing) should be on persuading people 18+ who have not yet been jabbed to get vaccinated. I suppose the implication is that if you switch to jabbing teenagers that’s quite easy so you lose focus and momentum in the harder but more valuable jabs in older groups.

    Uh oh, Charles ‘saw an article’ again.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,312

    We're not in a good shape on vaccinations though. We were, but we're not now. The number of jabs administered daily has slowed to a dribble and we're fast being overtaken by other countries.

    30% of British adults have not had both jabs and we know that under 18's can spread covid so the decision not to vaccinate them is crass.

    45% of British citizens are not vaccinated. We are a petri dish for mutations.

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=GBR

    In what way is the UK a petri dish for mutations that France, Spain, Italy, USA, India, South America and numerous other places aren't ?
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 167


    Ethan of Arthos, by the mildly liberal Lois Bujold McMaster (best known for the Miles Vorkosigan series), flirted with controversy by having a novel about an entirely male gay planet, terrified of women, needing to contact other planets for urgent survival reasons. I thought it was charming , funny and successfully avoiding all the obvious traps; gay friends quite liked it but were more equivocal. I'm not sure it would be well-received today.

    My impression was that Bujold was using the setup as a way of making some feminist points as much as anything else (eg the hero is shocked at the idea that women would be doing childcare unpaid and uncompensated, because on his planet where of course it's done by men, as soon as the colony was founded they immediately set up an economic system that recognizes that it's Important Work For Society...)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954
    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    Do you know whether our recognition of the Government of China is de facto or de jure? I don't, and I'm not sure where I would find out.
    We’ve recognised the PRC over the Republic of China (Taiwan) as the de jure government since at least 13 March 1972 when we exchanged ambassadors. Prior to that, in October 1971, the U.K. voted to seat the PRC in the UN General Assembly and Security Council when it voted in favour of UN resolution 2758 (1971) recognizing the People's Republic of China as "the only legitimate representative of China".
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 39,240

    Rachel Reeves knows how to revive the Bulwark of the Union, the Scottish Labour Party.

    Her recipe for success is… wait for it… drum roll… Blairism!

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/7451821/labour-scots-support-blairs-election-strategy/amp/

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image

    image

    The same Blair who won 56 seats in Scotland in 1997? That Blair?
  • Labour must go full on against the SNP and Independence, that is the only way in which it will not be in the same position as Ed M 2015
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,665
    Interesting Covid news on the golfer Jon Rahm. He tested positive last month. Missed a tournament. Came back and won the US Open. Then played our Open. Has now tested positive again.

    Also to correct a mistake from me on PT. Quite a bad one. I said I have a predilection for carbonara and chips. This is not the case (as if). It's bolognese and chips. Getting my pasta sauces mixed up.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,312
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    Isn't the number of reinfections less than 1% ?

    Not to mention that almost all of those infected last spring wouldn't be counted as a reinfection as they were not officially infected.
    I suspect higher than that. I know a few who have had it twice, including one double jabbed.

    Further anecdata: I was working yesterday with a nurse whose sister, mother and neices have all tested positive, the 74 yr old mother poorly and at home. Sister and mother were both double jabbed with the extended interval. I think the vaccine is better at preventing hospitalisation than transmission. In time all the unvaxxed will get it, I suppose, probably the vaxxed too. Herd immunity seems a long way off.
    Well we've know all along that the vaccine works better higher up the danger scale.

    But, as I've said previously, people being infected is noticed while people not being infected, either because they have acquired immunity or been vaccinated, isn't.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    I thought there had only been 500-600 verified cases of reinfection?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,800
    kinabalu said:

    Also to correct a mistake from me on PT. Quite a bad one. I said I have a predilection for carbonara and chips. This is not the case (as if). It's bolognese and chips. Getting my pasta sauces mixed up.

    Have you tried adding pineapple to the bolognese recipe?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,920
    Cyclefree said:

    MattW said:

    Following the demonstration video, posted by @Foxy earlier, I came across this excellent Twitter video thread by the same video-reporter exploring in detail anti-lockdown infiltration / exploitation of the Clapham Common vigil for Sarah Everard.

    It felt whiffy at the time with Patsye Stevenson shown on Sky footage inciting the crowd to ignore the police.

    This is in far more detail, and it even has Piers Corbyn turning up to try and make a speech.o it

    I have no idea who Mark Lister is (anyone?). Perhaps a slight Brian Whelan when freelancing / more newsy Mark Thomas feel to it.

    I would be very interested in your assessment, @Cyclefree .

    https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1380169852292378630

    The fact that this vigil was infiltrated is not a surprise. This a risk with all sorts of high profile vigils and demonstrations. It is one reason why it might have been more sensible for the police to have worked with the organisers rather than get into a court fight etc.

    There were two assessments of how the police managed the situation: one was by HCMICFRS which gave the police the benefit of the doubt - https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/news/news-feed/metropolitan-police-acted-appropriately-at-the-sarah-everard-vigil/ - and one by an all-Party Commons Committee which didn't.

    But it is also infuriating because it allows people to focus on the infiltrators etc and ignore or downplay the very real concerns which women had about safety, about the threat of violence and about the police's attitude to it. The discussion focuses on those who attach themselves to every cause going to make it about them and not about the real issues.

    There is a very real problem with violence directed at women and how the police and other authorities deal with it. There is also a problem within the Met about its culture, its vetting of its officers and how it deals with complaints. People like this who infiltrate causes are parasitic narcissists.

    Now - let's get back to considering what should be done about violence and threats of violence towards women. On which topic, this article by Alex Massie - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-death-threats-dont-sit-on-the-right-side-of-history-932582lw3 - is both very good and very timely.
    Thanks for the comment.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,881
    Cyclefree said:

    MattW said:

    Following the demonstration video, posted by @Foxy earlier, I came across this excellent Twitter video thread by the same video-reporter exploring in detail anti-lockdown infiltration / exploitation of the Clapham Common vigil for Sarah Everard.

    It felt whiffy at the time with Patsye Stevenson shown on Sky footage inciting the crowd to ignore the police.

    This is in far more detail, and it even has Piers Corbyn turning up to try and make a speech.o it

    I have no idea who Mark Lister is (anyone?). Perhaps a slight Brian Whelan when freelancing / more newsy Mark Thomas feel to it.

    I would be very interested in your assessment, @Cyclefree .

    https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1380169852292378630

    The fact that this vigil was infiltrated is not a surprise. This a risk with all sorts of high profile vigils and demonstrations. It is one reason why it might have been more sensible for the police to have worked with the organisers rather than get into a court fight etc.

    There were two assessments of how the police managed the situation: one was by HCMICFRS which gave the police the benefit of the doubt - https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/news/news-feed/metropolitan-police-acted-appropriately-at-the-sarah-everard-vigil/ - and one by an all-Party Commons Committee which didn't.

    But it is also infuriating because it allows people to focus on the infiltrators etc and ignore or downplay the very real concerns which women had about safety, about the threat of violence and about the police's attitude to it. The discussion focuses on those who attach themselves to every cause going to make it about them and not about the real issues.

    There is a very real problem with violence directed at women and how the police and other authorities deal with it. There is also a problem within the Met about its culture, its vetting of its officers and how it deals with complaints. People like this who infiltrate causes are parasitic narcissists.

    Now - let's get back to considering what should be done about violence and threats of violence towards women. On which topic, this article by Alex Massie - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-death-threats-dont-sit-on-the-right-side-of-history-932582lw3 - is both very good and very timely.
    I think that every demonstration that I have been to has a few rent a mob demonstrators that turn up to everything.

    I think though that Lister alleges that the anti-lockdown mob deliberately drew the initial police presence off to the centre of the common, and incited a hard crackdown with reinforcements. Of course it doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the Reclaim the Streets cause.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 31,044
    edited July 2021

    Rachel Reeves knows how to revive the Bulwark of the Union, the Scottish Labour Party.

    Her recipe for success is… wait for it… drum roll… Blairism!

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/7451821/labour-scots-support-blairs-election-strategy/amp/

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image

    image

    The same Blair who won 56 seats in Scotland in 1997? That Blair?
    Aye, also the same Blair who managed to lose more than a fifth of them in 2005. Man’s a genius!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,077
    Completely off topic but this was a truly stunning piece of journalism I came across this morning: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/09/barn-emmett-till-murder/619493/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=masthead-newsletter&utm_content=20210724&silverid=%%RECIPIENT_ID%%&utm_term=Subscriber Only Weekly Newsletter

    What I found shocking was not the murder but the recent and extreme destruction of memorials relating to this hideous act. Its a brilliant, if somewhat depressing, read showing the shadow of history and how it still haunts the current community.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    Isn't the number of reinfections less than 1% ?

    Not to mention that almost all of those infected last spring wouldn't be counted as a reinfection as they were not officially infected.
    I suspect higher than that. I know a few who have had it twice, including one double jabbed.

    Further anecdata: I was working yesterday with a nurse whose sister, mother and neices have all tested positive, the 74 yr old mother poorly and at home. Sister and mother were both double jabbed with the extended interval. I think the vaccine is better at preventing hospitalisation than transmission. In time all the unvaxxed will get it, I suppose, probably the vaxxed too. Herd immunity seems a long way off.
    Risky I know to make a medical point to a doctor but this piece would suggest we’re all going to get it, vaccines will only lessen the severity

    Prof Francois Balloux
    @BallouxFrancois
    The successive emergence of the more transmissible alpha and delta SARCoV2 lineages mean that the vast majority of the global population is expected to get infected by the virus, likely more than once over their lifetime.
    https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879625721000730?v=s5
    1/

    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1418364472771624968
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,665

    kinabalu said:

    Also to correct a mistake from me on PT. Quite a bad one. I said I have a predilection for carbonara and chips. This is not the case (as if). It's bolognese and chips. Getting my pasta sauces mixed up.

    Have you tried adding pineapple to the bolognese recipe?
    I've no ideological objection to that - but me and pineapples don't get on too well.
  • https://twitter.com/bensmithuk/status/1419237551051788289

    The Government should have stepped in
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,849
    Foxy said:

    I see the Tories want to publish the telephone numbers and email addresses of policemen and women.

    Reming me, how do the police usually vote?

    I suspect the 0% pay rise will bother them more than letting their work numbers and emails out.
    Here’s another group of key workers getting kicked in the teeth by Clapper Johnson.

    Nurses’ pay in England to fall 7% in a decade even after government offer

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jul/25/nurses-pay-in-england-to-fall-7-in-a-decade-even-after-government-offer
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954

    Rachel Reeves knows how to revive the Bulwark of the Union, the Scottish Labour Party.

    Her recipe for success is… wait for it… drum roll… Blairism!

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/7451821/labour-scots-support-blairs-election-strategy/amp/

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image

    image

    The same Blair who won 56 seats in Scotland in 1997? That Blair?
    Aye, also the same Blair who managed to lose more than a fifth of them in 2005. Man’s a genius!
    Kinda to be expected given Scotland lost just under a fifth of its seats in that election anyway and Labour lost vote share across the U.K.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    Isn't the number of reinfections less than 1% ?

    Not to mention that almost all of those infected last spring wouldn't be counted as a reinfection as they were not officially infected.
    I suspect higher than that. I know a few who have had it twice, including one double jabbed.

    Further anecdata: I was working yesterday with a nurse whose sister, mother and neices have all tested positive, the 74 yr old mother poorly and at home. Sister and mother were both double jabbed with the extended interval. I think the vaccine is better at preventing hospitalisation than transmission. In time all the unvaxxed will get it, I suppose, probably the vaxxed too. Herd immunity seems a long way off.
    Risky I know to make a medical point to a doctor but this piece would suggest we’re all going to get it, vaccines will only lessen the severity

    Prof Francois Balloux
    @BallouxFrancois
    The successive emergence of the more transmissible alpha and delta SARCoV2 lineages mean that the vast majority of the global population is expected to get infected by the virus, likely more than once over their lifetime.
    https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879625721000730?v=s5
    1/

    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1418364472771624968
    "over their lifetime" is an incredibly long timeframe.

    Its like saying you'll get the common cold or flu more than once over your lifetime. Viruses like this spread and mutate and respread.

    Vaccines meaning that our immune system is primed and ready for the virus when we get infected means the vaccines are doing their job. The issue last year and last winter was that our immune systems were naive to the virus.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 11,487
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MattW said:

    Following the demonstration video, posted by @Foxy earlier, I came across this excellent Twitter video thread by the same video-reporter exploring in detail anti-lockdown infiltration / exploitation of the Clapham Common vigil for Sarah Everard.

    It felt whiffy at the time with Patsye Stevenson shown on Sky footage inciting the crowd to ignore the police.

    This is in far more detail, and it even has Piers Corbyn turning up to try and make a speech.o it

    I have no idea who Mark Lister is (anyone?). Perhaps a slight Brian Whelan when freelancing / more newsy Mark Thomas feel to it.

    I would be very interested in your assessment, @Cyclefree .

    https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1380169852292378630

    The fact that this vigil was infiltrated is not a surprise. This a risk with all sorts of high profile vigils and demonstrations. It is one reason why it might have been more sensible for the police to have worked with the organisers rather than get into a court fight etc.

    There were two assessments of how the police managed the situation: one was by HCMICFRS which gave the police the benefit of the doubt - https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/news/news-feed/metropolitan-police-acted-appropriately-at-the-sarah-everard-vigil/ - and one by an all-Party Commons Committee which didn't.

    But it is also infuriating because it allows people to focus on the infiltrators etc and ignore or downplay the very real concerns which women had about safety, about the threat of violence and about the police's attitude to it. The discussion focuses on those who attach themselves to every cause going to make it about them and not about the real issues.

    There is a very real problem with violence directed at women and how the police and other authorities deal with it. There is also a problem within the Met about its culture, its vetting of its officers and how it deals with complaints. People like this who infiltrate causes are parasitic narcissists.

    Now - let's get back to considering what should be done about violence and threats of violence towards women. On which topic, this article by Alex Massie - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-death-threats-dont-sit-on-the-right-side-of-history-932582lw3 - is both very good and very timely.
    I think that every demonstration that I have been to has a few rent a mob demonstrators that turn up to everything.

    I think though that Lister alleges that the anti-lockdown mob deliberately drew the initial police presence off to the centre of the common, and incited a hard crackdown with reinforcements. Of course it doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the Reclaim the Streets cause.
    It is not just that rent-a-mob protestors turn up for everything. Being organised and experienced, especially the SWP types, they also provide the neatly-printed placards, posters and banners for people to carry. Since very few of the original protestors will have brought their own, they will pick up the ones helpfully provided.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,317
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MattW said:

    Following the demonstration video, posted by @Foxy earlier, I came across this excellent Twitter video thread by the same video-reporter exploring in detail anti-lockdown infiltration / exploitation of the Clapham Common vigil for Sarah Everard.

    It felt whiffy at the time with Patsye Stevenson shown on Sky footage inciting the crowd to ignore the police.

    This is in far more detail, and it even has Piers Corbyn turning up to try and make a speech.o it

    I have no idea who Mark Lister is (anyone?). Perhaps a slight Brian Whelan when freelancing / more newsy Mark Thomas feel to it.

    I would be very interested in your assessment, @Cyclefree .

    https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1380169852292378630

    The fact that this vigil was infiltrated is not a surprise. This a risk with all sorts of high profile vigils and demonstrations. It is one reason why it might have been more sensible for the police to have worked with the organisers rather than get into a court fight etc.

    There were two assessments of how the police managed the situation: one was by HCMICFRS which gave the police the benefit of the doubt - https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/news/news-feed/metropolitan-police-acted-appropriately-at-the-sarah-everard-vigil/ - and one by an all-Party Commons Committee which didn't.

    But it is also infuriating because it allows people to focus on the infiltrators etc and ignore or downplay the very real concerns which women had about safety, about the threat of violence and about the police's attitude to it. The discussion focuses on those who attach themselves to every cause going to make it about them and not about the real issues.

    There is a very real problem with violence directed at women and how the police and other authorities deal with it. There is also a problem within the Met about its culture, its vetting of its officers and how it deals with complaints. People like this who infiltrate causes are parasitic narcissists.

    Now - let's get back to considering what should be done about violence and threats of violence towards women. On which topic, this article by Alex Massie - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/alex-massie-death-threats-dont-sit-on-the-right-side-of-history-932582lw3 - is both very good and very timely.
    I think that every demonstration that I have been to has a few rent a mob demonstrators that turn up to everything.

    I think though that Lister alleges that the anti-lockdown mob deliberately drew the initial police presence off to the centre of the common, and incited a hard crackdown with reinforcements. Of course it doesn't invalidate the legitimacy of the Reclaim the Streets cause.
    This should not have been unexpected given that the anti-lockdown mob had been active for a while. Isn't dealing with this sort of thing down to good intelligence and clever policing?

    I don't doubt that policing such demos, especially in the middle of lockdown, is not easy. But that is the police's job. They are not meant to be amateurs at it. And their attitude to this demo by women was very different to their attitude and behaviour to the demos by Extinction Rebellion or to mass gatherings by sports fans, another reason why women were so infuriated. It felt like strict compliance with the rules was somehow only important when it came to women and not other groups.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954

    Zoey isn't showing the fall in infections, which is...odd?

    I’m a big fan of Zoe but it’s all over the place at the moment. Because it’s user base is so heavily vaccinated it had to change its methodology on Thursday - so from showing cases plateauing at around 32,000 they suddenly doubled. However, if you look at their daily report sent to the Government, even Zoe is starting to show tentative signs of a drop -


  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Why? Its not a domestic competition, why and how should the government overrule the IOC in selling the rights to their competition?

    Oh and the BBC wouldn't have had to find a billion pounds since the billion was for the entirety of Europe. The BBC doesn't represent the entirety of Europe so why would it need to pay for the entirety of Europe's rights?

    It could have put in a rival bid, co-ordinated with other broadcasters, that would have collectively reached a billion. It chose not to do so. That's its prerogative.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,317
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Also to correct a mistake from me on PT. Quite a bad one. I said I have a predilection for carbonara and chips. This is not the case (as if). It's bolognese and chips. Getting my pasta sauces mixed up.

    Have you tried adding pineapple to the bolognese recipe?
    I've no ideological objection to that - but me and pineapples don't get on too well.
    Please don't add pineapple to bolognese. Or, indeed, any other pasta sauce.

    Just don't.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 31,044

    Rachel Reeves knows how to revive the Bulwark of the Union, the Scottish Labour Party.

    Her recipe for success is… wait for it… drum roll… Blairism!

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/7451821/labour-scots-support-blairs-election-strategy/amp/

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image

    image

    The same Blair who won 56 seats in Scotland in 1997? That Blair?
    Aye, also the same Blair who managed to lose more than a quarter of them in 2005. Man’s a genius!
    Um, total Scottish seats were reduced from 72 to 59 for that election! I think that might explain the drop!
    Fair enough, forgot that, let’s say 5 seats lost net.
    It would have been interesting to see how Blair would have faired if he’d stuck on till 2010 given that the accepted wisdom is that Gordo’s Scottishness preserved Scotland while everything else went to shit.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,849

    Rachel Reeves knows how to revive the Bulwark of the Union, the Scottish Labour Party.

    Her recipe for success is… wait for it… drum roll… Blairism!

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/7451821/labour-scots-support-blairs-election-strategy/amp/

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image

    image

    The same Blair who won 56 seats in Scotland in 1997? That Blair?
    Started well in 1997. But didn’t end well for the Scottish Blairites in 2015.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15497915.Jim_Murphy_was_an__quot_unprincipled_quot__Blairite_claims_Labour_MSP_Neil_Findlay_in_explosive_new_book/

    Rachel Reeves clearly doesn’t understand what presses SLab buttons. Must do better.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954
    Yeah - credit where credit’s due. Can’t imagine his boss ever apologising for spewing up any of the words in the thesaurus he swallowed.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,881
    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    Do you know whether our recognition of the Government of China is de facto or de jure? I don't, and I'm not sure where I would find out.
    We’ve recognised the PRC over the Republic of China (Taiwan) as the de jure government since at least 13 March 1972 when we exchanged ambassadors. Prior to that, in October 1971, the U.K. voted to seat the PRC in the UN General Assembly and Security Council when it voted in favour of UN resolution 2758 (1971) recognizing the People's Republic of China as "the only legitimate representative of China".
    Both CCP and KMT claimed to represent the entirety of China, though perhaps Taipei has dropped that now. It would be absurd though to deny that Beijing represents the country that may well be the biggest economy in the world shortly.

    Xi is a bit of a departure from previous CCP leaders, in degree if not in style. If we want to contain China (war would be a disaster) then we need to end our dependence on Chinese exports and capital. As @rcs1000 has shown on a number of occasions, the way to do that is by increasing our savings rate.

    While the old colonial powers and Taiwan may be united against China, the emerging economies of the world are ambivalent at best. This isn't the 19th Century any more.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,954
    Foxy said:

    DougSeal said:

    MattW said:

    Foxy said:

    This is a very downbeat assessment of where we, democracies, are in relation to China.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jul/25/an-explosion-is-coming-biden-races-to-unite-allies-against-china

    What it doesn't say is that, as far as I can tell, Britain has been Biden's most reliable European ally in his recent moves to compete with China, and that Biden knows that. We haven't seen the anti-British Irish President of the US that some feared, because Biden is sensible enough to recognise that he needs Britain, when his alternative European allies are much less willing to stand up to China.

    How he must rue that we can't use our voice in support of his from within the EU.

    Biden is not anti-British. Indeed one of his strengths is his ability to build consensus and conciliate. I would expect his approach to China to be similar, including both building a supporting network of allies, but also conciliation with China.

    I think that the right Realpolitik approach. I don't think China would respond as well to the stick as to the carrot in terms of mending its ways.
    Do you know whether our recognition of the Government of China is de facto or de jure? I don't, and I'm not sure where I would find out.
    We’ve recognised the PRC over the Republic of China (Taiwan) as the de jure government since at least 13 March 1972 when we exchanged ambassadors. Prior to that, in October 1971, the U.K. voted to seat the PRC in the UN General Assembly and Security Council when it voted in favour of UN resolution 2758 (1971) recognizing the People's Republic of China as "the only legitimate representative of China".
    Both CCP and KMT claimed to represent the entirety of China, though perhaps Taipei has dropped that now. It would be absurd though to deny that Beijing represents the country that may well be the biggest economy in the world shortly.

    Xi is a bit of a departure from previous CCP leaders, in degree if not in style. If we want to contain China (war would be a disaster) then we need to end our dependence on Chinese exports and capital. As @rcs1000 has shown on a number of occasions, the way to do that is by increasing our savings rate.

    While the old colonial powers and Taiwan may be united against China, the emerging economies of the world are ambivalent at best. This isn't the 19th Century any more.
    They haven’t formally dropped the claim. Ironically that would be taken as a Declaration of Independence by the PRC which could provoke a war.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 31,044
    Golly, I’d got the impression on here that there was nothing to see there.
    Apparently there was something to see there.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,651
    Yes, it was a gaffe, no question, and clearly one or two politicians still seem to struggle with the concept of Twitter but the apology was duly made.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,533

    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    Isn't the number of reinfections less than 1% ?

    Not to mention that almost all of those infected last spring wouldn't be counted as a reinfection as they were not officially infected.
    I suspect higher than that. I know a few who have had it twice, including one double jabbed.

    Further anecdata: I was working yesterday with a nurse whose sister, mother and neices have all tested positive, the 74 yr old mother poorly and at home. Sister and mother were both double jabbed with the extended interval. I think the vaccine is better at preventing hospitalisation than transmission. In time all the unvaxxed will get it, I suppose, probably the vaxxed too. Herd immunity seems a long way off.
    Risky I know to make a medical point to a doctor but this piece would suggest we’re all going to get it, vaccines will only lessen the severity

    Prof Francois Balloux
    @BallouxFrancois
    The successive emergence of the more transmissible alpha and delta SARCoV2 lineages mean that the vast majority of the global population is expected to get infected by the virus, likely more than once over their lifetime.
    https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879625721000730?v=s5
    1/

    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1418364472771624968
    "over their lifetime" is an incredibly long timeframe.

    Its like saying you'll get the common cold or flu more than once over your lifetime. Viruses like this spread and mutate and respread.

    Vaccines meaning that our immune system is primed and ready for the virus when we get infected means the vaccines are doing their job. The issue last year and last winter was that our immune systems were naive to the virus.
    Seems Prof Peston is barking up a very small tree:

    Richard 📊📉
    @RP131
    ·
    33m
    Replying to
    @Peston
    They do publish it, just not daily on the dashboard. Currently less than 1% (0.53%) of total positives represent people potentially getting it for the 2nd time. They could start publishing it daily but I'm not sure it would be as controversial as you're suggesting.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,881
    DougSeal said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    Robert Preston (I know, I know) is suggesting that the covid infections figures are not including people who have caught covid for a second time, so the figures being shown are understated

    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1419233632993095689

    In case you didn’t know - and I didn’t till a senior government official told me - the daily tally of infections seriously understates the actual number of infections, because if you are sick with Covid19 today but had it any time in the past (even last spring) your new bout…

    Any (probably @MaxPB) know if there is any truth in that statement

    Isn't the number of reinfections less than 1% ?

    Not to mention that almost all of those infected last spring wouldn't be counted as a reinfection as they were not officially infected.
    I suspect higher than that. I know a few who have had it twice, including one double jabbed.

    Further anecdata: I was working yesterday with a nurse whose sister, mother and neices have all tested positive, the 74 yr old mother poorly and at home. Sister and mother were both double jabbed with the extended interval. I think the vaccine is better at preventing hospitalisation than transmission. In time all the unvaxxed will get it, I suppose, probably the vaxxed too. Herd immunity seems a long way off.
    Risky I know to make a medical point to a doctor but this piece would suggest we’re all going to get it, vaccines will only lessen the severity

    Prof Francois Balloux
    @BallouxFrancois
    The successive emergence of the more transmissible alpha and delta SARCoV2 lineages mean that the vast majority of the global population is expected to get infected by the virus, likely more than once over their lifetime.
    https://sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1879625721000730?v=s5
    1/

    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/status/1418364472771624968
    I wouldn't disagree, though I am in no hurry to get it!

    I think there are some promising therapeutics in the pipeline that will greatly lessen severity over and above the vaccine effect. Quite often procrastination is the best policy, as very often something does turn up.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,732
    edited July 2021

    Why? Its not a domestic competition, why and how should the government overrule the IOC in selling the rights to their competition?

    Oh and the BBC wouldn't have had to find a billion pounds since the billion was for the entirety of Europe. The BBC doesn't represent the entirety of Europe so why would it need to pay for the entirety of Europe's rights?

    It could have put in a rival bid, co-ordinated with other broadcasters, that would have collectively reached a billion. It chose not to do so. That's its prerogative.
    The real solution will come from the fact Discovery will earn very little additional money from subscription payments (its £6.99 for 1 months access and I can't be bothered to pay even that) so come 2024 I suspect the BBC may end up with complete rights again as it's not worth the hassle.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kinabalu said:

    Interesting Covid news on the golfer Jon Rahm. He tested positive last month. Missed a tournament. Came back and won the US Open. Then played our Open. Has now tested positive again.

    Also to correct a mistake from me on PT. Quite a bad one. I said I have a predilection for carbonara and chips. This is not the case (as if). It's bolognese and chips. Getting my pasta sauces mixed up.

    Meat and potatoes sort of guy….
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,843

    And approval ratings are now irrelevant, because Starmer is now leading Johnson?

    A few weeks ago, Starmer's ratings were a resigning matter for many on here, a guaranteed loser many said. Now he's recovering and BoJo is falling, I am sure consistency will be retained, as it always is!

    Citation required? Who said what?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 22,312
    MaxPB said:

    It's sad he's been censored because he's right. People are cowering from the virus now that they've been double jabbed. It's the fault of the government and specifically Matt Hancock who has made us into a nation if craven wretches waiting for the state to tell us what we can and can't do.

    I fear that my mum will never really mentally recover from being scared of the virus. For 18 months the government has fed her a diet of fear and uncertainty and now she doesn't really ever want to go out, my sister wants to plan a family holiday to Greece but my mum is flatly refusing because she might catch the virus on the plane or in Greece or in the airport. She's double jabbed with Pfizer and has no other health conditions. No amount of reasoning is working to get her to understand that she's now in no real danger.

    It made me so very happy when Hancock was forced out and replaced by Javid who doesn't talk about "our" NHS or wear that idiotic NHS pin on his lapel. I hold Hancock responsible for my mum's fearful mental state and the mental state of millions of other people across the nation who are now living in a permanent state of worry that they might die from something that won't kill them now that they're vaccinated.
    Pressing the like button is not enough to show my agreement.

    I wonder if there will be medium-long term differences between people who have stayed in their own homes for the last year plus and those who effectively carried on as normal because of their work types.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 15,575

    Rachel Reeves knows how to revive the Bulwark of the Union, the Scottish Labour Party.

    Her recipe for success is… wait for it… drum roll… Blairism!

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/politics/7451821/labour-scots-support-blairs-election-strategy/amp/

    Yes Jim, we feel the love.

    image

    image

    Murphy was leader of Scottish Labour in 2014-15. The complete collapse of SLAB was after The Vow, not because of Blair.

    Reeves has a point - any party that is negative and apologetic is in for a kicking. I'm not saying such a strategy will revive them, but you can't say that a similar strategy caused their cataclysm.
This discussion has been closed.