FWIW I was in a supermarket at lunch time, then took a short cut through a bus station. I'd say 75-80%, of all ages, were masked indoors. I didn't wear one and felt quite naughty until I saw other folk not wearing them.
Went in a local boozer on Friday night about half 10 and everyone was maskless and ordering drinks at the bar. So I did the same. Felt good to stand at a bar and order a beer.
Good for you - it will take time to lose the mask mindset.
On my morning cycling exercise I saw plenty of people in fresh air walking along the street in masks.
The telegraph reports that hospitality spending is still 30% below pre 2019 levels. 30% FFS.
With furlough ending, this is a nightmare for the government, isn't it? Tom Newton Dunn tweeting a picture of an empty restaurant in central London.
With furlough ending, the chance of bankruptcies and redundancies are surely on the horizon.
Maybe there were just too many of these places? Folk have discovered just how much cash they save from eating and drinking at home more often? My barber friend reports dismal trade. Many of his regulars used to be weekly. Now they have twigged they don't need to spend a tenner a week getting 2 mm of growth taken off.
I used to spend a tenner a month on cutting hair. Now I do it myself. At first it was an all-or-nothing approach - whole head down to 1mm or less - but I've worked out I can vary it a bit and do almost as good a job as the barber himself (i.e. down to 1mm on back and sides and longer on top, with some variation between). It's not that I begrudge the tenner, but I did begrudge the 30 minutes spent waiting for a barber to become available. And I can do it whenever I want.
Good Guardian story where despite the 5 million + successful EU settlement applications they have found one where the Home Office never answers the phone, their employer acts illegally, a specialist charity can't sort it and everyone has been an idiot.
Some cases make you wonder what MPs are for. It's one where a sensible one could sort it swiftly.
In life I have started assuming anyone in a bureaucratic or customer facing role is either poorly trained, poorly motivated, doesn't have enough time to deal with me or occasionally a bit dim. This leaves me feeling surprised on the upside 50% of the time instead of the disappointed 50% of the time that I was getting before making this mental shift. It feels better.
I wonder what its like when SeanT gets banned and has to regenerate.
Is it like Doctor Who - a burst of energy then a new face/username? Is it like Captain Jack when he actually lies there unbreathing for a few minutes until coming back with a big gasp? Is it like one of the Cylons where they awake on the resurrection ship?
FWIW I was in a supermarket at lunch time, then took a short cut through a bus station. I'd say 75-80%, of all ages, were masked indoors. I didn't wear one and felt quite naughty until I saw other folk not wearing them.
Went in a local boozer on Friday night about half 10 and everyone was maskless and ordering drinks at the bar. So I did the same. Felt good to stand at a bar and order a beer.
Ok! Hats off for mask off. It's the right call.
But I've disappointed myself by still wearing mine. Can't quite seem to break free. Not quite ready.
People can call me an institutionalised pussy whipped libtard cuck and I'd have no real defence.
Thanks! Does feel a bit weird tbh.
Whilst I wouldn't necessarily call myself a rugged individualist, a free-thinking maverick, a lone wolf sticking it to the man, a lantern-jawed square-shouldered Randian Atlas, I did feel a teeny tiny bit like that!
Hopefully (fingers crossed) more and more people, including you, will feel comfortable ditching them over the next few days and weeks.
Good Guardian story where despite the 5 million + successful EU settlement applications they have found one where the Home Office never answers the phone, their employer acts illegally, a specialist charity can't sort it and everyone has been an idiot.
Some cases make you wonder what MPs are for. It's one where a sensible one could sort it swiftly.
How many years has that settlement scheme been open for yet she applied on the very last day (June 30th) even though she was made aware of the problem on June 28th.
You would have thought you would drop what you were doing and applied immediately but nope she waited another day before doing so.
FWIW I was in a supermarket at lunch time, then took a short cut through a bus station. I'd say 75-80%, of all ages, were masked indoors. I didn't wear one and felt quite naughty until I saw other folk not wearing them.
Went in a local boozer on Friday night about half 10 and everyone was maskless and ordering drinks at the bar. So I did the same. Felt good to stand at a bar and order a beer.
Ok! Hats off for mask off. It's the right call.
But I've disappointed myself by still wearing mine. Can't quite seem to break free. Not quite ready.
People can call me an institutionalised pussy whipped libtard cuck and I'd have no real defence.
I see in Leon's unfortunate absence you are having to abuse yourself.
I was thinking about this today. I place myself at about the 25% level. There are some people so rebellious/heroic/selfish that they will demask straight away, but most of us need some sort of peer-confirmation to do it. I reckon where rules are blurred I demask once about 25% of people are demasked.
Demask. I like that. Touch of the Scarlet Pimpernel.
Its not really a surprise. What can Transport Scotland do about it?
They could tell Angus Robertson, Constitution secretary:
LNER is a train company owned by the UK Government. Is it still maintaining that when it operates in Scotland it is going to disregard Scottish public health and safety coronavirus rules? This is as tenable as Boris Johnson's exemption from social distancing regulations. #LNER
Good Guardian story where despite the 5 million + successful EU settlement applications they have found one where the Home Office never answers the phone, their employer acts illegally, a specialist charity can't sort it and everyone has been an idiot.
Some cases make you wonder what MPs are for. It's one where a sensible one could sort it swiftly.
How many years has that settlement scheme been open for yet she applied on the very last day (June 30th) even though she was made aware of the problem on June 28th.
You would have thought you would drop what you were doing and applied immediately but nope she waited another day before doing so.
Apparently no one has any agency anymore and personal responsibility has ceased to exist.
NOTE a poster here has jusst been banned for stating in comment "the Germans are drowning (always a nice distraction)"
@Leon posting while pissed? To be serious, is there, or could there be, a mechanism within Vanilla to simply remove offending posts (including where they are quoted) rather than ban the poster?
He seemed particularly hyper today? It was like reading a play ‘Death of a Flint Knapper’. Freedom Day at last, straight up to the bar ordering shots. Ice Cold in Alex, not.
Seriously, if someone is in mind to revel in deaths due to natural disaster, with a cultural or racial slant to it, there has to be sanction or the whole site is in repute?
I was quite looking forward to taking in the bars of Hampstead with him tonight. Shame.
Perhaps go instead to that lovely little out of the way place, never packed, with @kinabalu.
Let us know how you get on.
It won't stay quiet for long at this rate.
I'm tempted to rock up there just to play spot the PBer.
Tweed cap with a progressive glint in the eye is me.
FWIW I was in a supermarket at lunch time, then took a short cut through a bus station. I'd say 75-80%, of all ages, were masked indoors. I didn't wear one and felt quite naughty until I saw other folk not wearing them.
Went in a local boozer on Friday night about half 10 and everyone was maskless and ordering drinks at the bar. So I did the same. Felt good to stand at a bar and order a beer.
Ok! Hats off for mask off. It's the right call.
But I've disappointed myself by still wearing mine. Can't quite seem to break free. Not quite ready.
People can call me an institutionalised pussy whipped libtard cuck and I'd have no real defence.
I see in Leon's unfortunate absence you are having to abuse yourself.
I was thinking about this today. I place myself at about the 25% level. There are some people so rebellious/heroic/selfish that they will demask straight away, but most of us need some sort of peer-confirmation to do it. I reckon where rules are blurred I demask once about 25% of people are demasked.
The 15 seconds of mask on in a restaurant walking to a table were presumably completely superfluous for anyone who could avoid sneezing or coughing in that time and was completely for show and confidence building. Similarly popping into a shop to get some milk, in and out in a minute or two.
Whereas a 30 minute shop in a big Tesco a mask is having some impact, and a 20 minute tube journey at rush hour the masks are having a really big impact. Horses for courses is the way forward.
Good Guardian story where despite the 5 million + successful EU settlement applications they have found one where the Home Office never answers the phone, their employer acts illegally, a specialist charity can't sort it and everyone has been an idiot.
Some cases make you wonder what MPs are for. It's one where a sensible one could sort it swiftly.
How many years has that settlement scheme been open for yet she applied on the very last day (June 30th) even though she was made aware of the problem on June 28th.
You would have thought you would drop what you were doing and applied immediately but nope she waited another day before doing so.
Apparently no one has any agency anymore and personal responsibility has ceased to exist.
I'm getting to the point where I read a Guardian / Telegraph / insert paper here article that starts with a problem and I think a wonder at what point the person complaining will reveal that it's they own fault because they could have sorted it out years ago
FWIW I was in a supermarket at lunch time, then took a short cut through a bus station. I'd say 75-80%, of all ages, were masked indoors. I didn't wear one and felt quite naughty until I saw other folk not wearing them.
Went in a local boozer on Friday night about half 10 and everyone was maskless and ordering drinks at the bar. So I did the same. Felt good to stand at a bar and order a beer.
Good for you - it will take time to lose the mask mindset.
On my morning cycling exercise I saw plenty of people in fresh air walking along the street in masks.
The telegraph reports that hospitality spending is still 30% below pre 2019 levels. 30% FFS.
With furlough ending, this is a nightmare for the government, isn't it? Tom Newton Dunn tweeting a picture of an empty restaurant in central London.
With furlough ending, the chance of bankruptcies and redundancies are surely on the horizon.
Indeed, no good reopening fully without requiring masks or social distancing if people still do not feel confident enough to eat in a restaurant indoors or go to a bar or pub or club.
Covid vaccination passports being required in indoor hospitality venues would provide that confidence
The reason people don't feel confident, as I suspect you well know, is that Boris Johnson allowed scientists and others to create regimen of fear over the people of Britain. A regimen that exists to this day
You only need to look at the front of the Mail screaming 'the price of freedom' because some SAGE scientist has thought of a number in terms of cases and added a zero.
It is still going on, partly because Johnson is the worst type of gutless coward who cannot make a decision one way or the other.
FWIW I was in a supermarket at lunch time, then took a short cut through a bus station. I'd say 75-80%, of all ages, were masked indoors. I didn't wear one and felt quite naughty until I saw other folk not wearing them.
Went in a local boozer on Friday night about half 10 and everyone was maskless and ordering drinks at the bar. So I did the same. Felt good to stand at a bar and order a beer.
Ok! Hats off for mask off. It's the right call.
But I've disappointed myself by still wearing mine. Can't quite seem to break free. Not quite ready.
People can call me an institutionalised pussy whipped libtard cuck and I'd have no real defence.
Why do you need to include, in the list of epithets, the appropriateness of which I wouldn't dream of commenting on, the term "pussy whipped".
Plus "libtard" now that I think about it raises some questions.
I do not understand why folk are irritated by other people wearing masks?
I find it very difficult to work out what people are saying if their mouth us covered.
Quite a few people use lipreading, often unconsciously, as an auxiliary to listening as they get older and their hearing deteriorates (not suggesting this is your personal situation of course).
I do not understand why folk are irritated by other people wearing masks?
I couldn't care less if other people continue to wear masks, so long as they don't expect me to do the same.
I must be an outlier. Wearing a mask has never bothered me. Neither has other people wearing or not wearing them. Rather like hats. It is frankly none of my business. Never was, and still isn't.
I was working in my chemical lab with a mask on and safety glasses. Horrendous. Happily for me I only needed an hour spread over three, but I gave my student permission not to carry on if it got too hot. Its bonkers as there are no ventilation issues (10 huge fume hoods extracting the air continuously) but the Uni insists we were masks.
FWIW I was in a supermarket at lunch time, then took a short cut through a bus station. I'd say 75-80%, of all ages, were masked indoors. I didn't wear one and felt quite naughty until I saw other folk not wearing them.
Went in a local boozer on Friday night about half 10 and everyone was maskless and ordering drinks at the bar. So I did the same. Felt good to stand at a bar and order a beer.
Good for you - it will take time to lose the mask mindset.
On my morning cycling exercise I saw plenty of people in fresh air walking along the street in masks.
The telegraph reports that hospitality spending is still 30% below pre 2019 levels. 30% FFS.
With furlough ending, this is a nightmare for the government, isn't it? Tom Newton Dunn tweeting a picture of an empty restaurant in central London.
With furlough ending, the chance of bankruptcies and redundancies are surely on the horizon.
Maybe there were just too many of these places? Folk have discovered just how much cash they save from eating and drinking at home more often? My barber friend reports dismal trade. Many of his regulars used to be weekly. Now they have twigged they don't need to spend a tenner a week getting 2 mm of growth taken off.
I used to spend a tenner a month on cutting hair. Now I do it myself. At first it was an all-or-nothing approach - whole head down to 1mm or less - but I've worked out I can vary it a bit and do almost as good a job as the barber himself (i.e. down to 1mm on back and sides and longer on top, with some variation between). It's not that I begrudge the tenner, but I did begrudge the 30 minutes spent waiting for a barber to become available. And I can do it whenever I want.
My local town of 10000 has five barber shops. I fail to see how they can all continue. There doesn't seem to be a queue at any of them lately. Like you say. Used to be half hour.
No 10 says govt has abandoned plans to reduce the sensitivity of the Covid tracing app. PM's spokesman says a third of people asked to isolate develop symptoms, adding: 'The app is doing what it it supposed to'
And yet any time the politicians decide that something else trumps the science they go and mouth off to their nearest media outlet. You all want to have your cake and eat it, on the one hand you say it's politicians that have to make the decisions and they are free to make decisions that you don't agree with but then at the same time you say it's unfair that SAGE members aren't bound by the same rules as the civil service on speaking to media directly (don't fucking do it).
So ultimately we have a tyranny of scientists who think they know what's best for us because the government knows the media will go mental every time one of you lot go rogue and decide that actually, you know what's better for the country than the people who have been elected.
It's a remarkably odd definition of "tyranny" to say that people having free speech constitutes tyranny! You think there's less tyranny if I'm not allowed to say anything?
SAGE participants are not civil servants. SAGE participation is part-time. Very, very part-time now for the sub-committees. We're not paid by Government. We have no employment contract with Govt. Science, like many things, is better done in the open, with transparency. That's why all SAGE minutes are published fairly promptly.
Government was very concerned about academic freedom recently. Are we only free to speak when we say things the government likes?
But that's the point, you're on the one hand saying your advice to the government is just advice but on the other hand telling us that you should be free to bitch to the media when the government decides that your advice is just advisory.
Simply, you want to pretend that you aren't trying to influence policy decisions outside of your remit by maintaining a pretence that the government is free to ignore your advice but then the first moment this happens you'll bitch to the media that the government is "ignoring the science" or whatever else. It's only been happening for a year.
The sooner your reign of freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit is over the better off we'll be.
Hopefully Steve Baker wins the leadership and gets rid of all of you in one swoop and you can go back to leading your grey lives churning out papers that no one will ever read and we can go back to not caring about what you do again.
That seems to be a rather intemperate response to a thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasoned poster. You've no idea what their views are on freedom, mask wearing, or what a tolerable level of deaths is, have you? Really, you just want to cancel him/her.
Its not really a surprise. What can Transport Scotland do about it?
They could tell Angus Robertson, Constitution secretary:
LNER is a train company owned by the UK Government. Is it still maintaining that when it operates in Scotland it is going to disregard Scottish public health and safety coronavirus rules? This is as tenable as Boris Johnson's exemption from social distancing regulations. #LNER
Yes I read that! But I don't think Transport Scotland have the power to instruct a foreign operator, and the social distancing regulations aren't a legal requirement like the mask requirement is.
Could it be - outrageous as it is - that Mr Robertson is grandstanding?
Some distasteful remark about Germans drowning.....not sure how far he was into his cups by then but after his workout he'd said he'd be ordering shots at the bar.....
Its not really a surprise. What can Transport Scotland do about it?
They could tell Angus Robertson, Constitution secretary:
LNER is a train company owned by the UK Government. Is it still maintaining that when it operates in Scotland it is going to disregard Scottish public health and safety coronavirus rules? This is as tenable as Boris Johnson's exemption from social distancing regulations. #LNER
Yes I read that! But I don't think Transport Scotland have the power to instruct a foreign operator, and the social distancing regulations aren't a legal requirement like the mask requirement is.
Could it be - outrageous as it is - that Mr Robertson is grandstanding?
Curiously enough he isn't grandstanding about ScotRail who can't guarantee social distancing either. I wonder why?
Good Guardian story where despite the 5 million + successful EU settlement applications they have found one where the Home Office never answers the phone, their employer acts illegally, a specialist charity can't sort it and everyone has been an idiot.
Some cases make you wonder what MPs are for. It's one where a sensible one could sort it swiftly.
How many years has that settlement scheme been open for yet she applied on the very last day (June 30th) even though she was made aware of the problem on June 28th.
You would have thought you would drop what you were doing and applied immediately but nope she waited another day before doing so.
Indeed, everyone has been an idiot. including the person herself, who despite being born in Spain and living virtually all her life in the UK never thought to explore the issue of passports. It is possible that the Guardian had to scrape around a bit to find an anti-Tory story here. Still, it's like some of the Windrush cases; people who don't spend their lives taking formal bureaucratic care about eventualities still shouldn't be treated abominably. And government departments should answer the phone.
I do not understand why folk are irritated by other people wearing masks?
I couldn't care less if other people continue to wear masks, so long as they don't expect me to do the same.
I must be an outlier. Wearing a mask has never bothered me. Neither has other people wearing or not wearing them. Rather like hats. It is frankly none of my business. Never was, and still isn't.
I was working in my chemical lab with a mask on and safety glasses. Horrendous. Happily for me I only needed an hour spread over three, but I gave my student permission not to carry on if it got too hot. Its bonkers as there are no ventilation issues (10 huge fume hoods extracting the air continuously) but the Uni insists we were masks.
FWIW I was in a supermarket at lunch time, then took a short cut through a bus station. I'd say 75-80%, of all ages, were masked indoors. I didn't wear one and felt quite naughty until I saw other folk not wearing them.
Went in a local boozer on Friday night about half 10 and everyone was maskless and ordering drinks at the bar. So I did the same. Felt good to stand at a bar and order a beer.
Good for you - it will take time to lose the mask mindset.
On my morning cycling exercise I saw plenty of people in fresh air walking along the street in masks.
The telegraph reports that hospitality spending is still 30% below pre 2019 levels. 30% FFS.
With furlough ending, this is a nightmare for the government, isn't it? Tom Newton Dunn tweeting a picture of an empty restaurant in central London.
With furlough ending, the chance of bankruptcies and redundancies are surely on the horizon.
Maybe there were just too many of these places? Folk have discovered just how much cash they save from eating and drinking at home more often? My barber friend reports dismal trade. Many of his regulars used to be weekly. Now they have twigged they don't need to spend a tenner a week getting 2 mm of growth taken off.
I used to spend a tenner a month on cutting hair. Now I do it myself. At first it was an all-or-nothing approach - whole head down to 1mm or less - but I've worked out I can vary it a bit and do almost as good a job as the barber himself (i.e. down to 1mm on back and sides and longer on top, with some variation between). It's not that I begrudge the tenner, but I did begrudge the 30 minutes spent waiting for a barber to become available. And I can do it whenever I want.
My local town of 10000 has five barber shops. I fail to see how they can all continue. There doesn't seem to be a queue at any of them lately. Like you say. Used to be half hour.
Yeah I'm doing mine now with a beard trimmer, 3mm all over. So much less hassle than going to a barber every few weeks. No need to buy 'product' either.
And yet any time the politicians decide that something else trumps the science they go and mouth off to their nearest media outlet. You all want to have your cake and eat it, on the one hand you say it's politicians that have to make the decisions and they are free to make decisions that you don't agree with but then at the same time you say it's unfair that SAGE members aren't bound by the same rules as the civil service on speaking to media directly (don't fucking do it).
So ultimately we have a tyranny of scientists who think they know what's best for us because the government knows the media will go mental every time one of you lot go rogue and decide that actually, you know what's better for the country than the people who have been elected.
It's a remarkably odd definition of "tyranny" to say that people having free speech constitutes tyranny! You think there's less tyranny if I'm not allowed to say anything?
SAGE participants are not civil servants. SAGE participation is part-time. Very, very part-time now for the sub-committees. We're not paid by Government. We have no employment contract with Govt. Science, like many things, is better done in the open, with transparency. That's why all SAGE minutes are published fairly promptly.
Government was very concerned about academic freedom recently. Are we only free to speak when we say things the government likes?
But that's the point, you're on the one hand saying your advice to the government is just advice but on the other hand telling us that you should be free to bitch to the media when the government decides that your advice is just advisory.
Simply, you want to pretend that you aren't trying to influence policy decisions outside of your remit by maintaining a pretence that the government is free to ignore your advice but then the first moment this happens you'll bitch to the media that the government is "ignoring the science" or whatever else. It's only been happening for a year.
The sooner your reign of freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit is over the better off we'll be.
Hopefully Steve Baker wins the leadership and gets rid of all of you in one swoop and you can go back to leading your grey lives churning out papers that no one will ever read and we can go back to not caring about what you do again.
That seems to be a rather intemperate response to a thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasoned poster. You've no idea what his views are on freedom, mask wearing, or what a tolerable level of deaths is, have you? Really, you just want to cancel him.
Not at all, I have no issue with him either advising the government or speaking to the media. Choose one. At the moment dissent isn't limited to minutes, it's spread far and wide across multiple media outlets to try and influence policy decisions after they've been made and it's being done by people who have not been elected or faced any serious scrutiny on their personal or political agendas.
It's a ridiculous situation that we've let such unelected people to have such a huge influence on how we live as we, the people, have no way of getting rid of this new ruling class of experts and people who think they know what's best for me and everyone else. You might be happy to live under that, I'm not.
Maybe they should just disembark at Berwick & walk.....as neither LNER nor ScotRail can guarantee social distancing?
No train operator can guarantee social distancing. That's always been the case. All of them *try* and its easier for intercity operators who can implement mandatory seat reservations.
For someone like Scotrail where its out in the sticks, what are they supposed to do if they end up with more passengers than socially-distanced seats? Turf the surplus out at Altnabreac?
I do not understand why folk are irritated by other people wearing masks?
I couldn't care less if other people continue to wear masks, so long as they don't expect me to do the same.
I must be an outlier. Wearing a mask has never bothered me. Neither has other people wearing or not wearing them. Rather like hats. It is frankly none of my business. Never was, and still isn't.
I was working in my chemical lab with a mask on and safety glasses. Horrendous. Happily for me I only needed an hour spread over three, but I gave my student permission not to carry on if it got too hot. Its bonkers as there are no ventilation issues (10 huge fume hoods extracting the air continuously) but the Uni insists we were masks.
Surely that's a Health and safety issue though?.
A bit yes, and hence why I suggested my student should only work if she was happy. The masks are just generally unpleasant, especially in the current heat.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
Demeaning? We're back to this morning's upset caused to the Clown Apologists.
Repeat the same line over and over and over until it sticks. They (rightly) want to pin the blame on Delta on the man who kept the border with India open to let it come here and seed itself across the country.
Calling it after him is only objectionable if you are an apologist.
And yet any time the politicians decide that something else trumps the science they go and mouth off to their nearest media outlet. You all want to have your cake and eat it, on the one hand you say it's politicians that have to make the decisions and they are free to make decisions that you don't agree with but then at the same time you say it's unfair that SAGE members aren't bound by the same rules as the civil service on speaking to media directly (don't fucking do it).
So ultimately we have a tyranny of scientists who think they know what's best for us because the government knows the media will go mental every time one of you lot go rogue and decide that actually, you know what's better for the country than the people who have been elected.
It's a remarkably odd definition of "tyranny" to say that people having free speech constitutes tyranny! You think there's less tyranny if I'm not allowed to say anything?
SAGE participants are not civil servants. SAGE participation is part-time. Very, very part-time now for the sub-committees. We're not paid by Government. We have no employment contract with Govt. Science, like many things, is better done in the open, with transparency. That's why all SAGE minutes are published fairly promptly.
Government was very concerned about academic freedom recently. Are we only free to speak when we say things the government likes?
But that's the point, you're on the one hand saying your advice to the government is just advice but on the other hand telling us that you should be free to bitch to the media when the government decides that your advice is just advisory.
Simply, you want to pretend that you aren't trying to influence policy decisions outside of your remit by maintaining a pretence that the government is free to ignore your advice but then the first moment this happens you'll bitch to the media that the government is "ignoring the science" or whatever else. It's only been happening for a year.
The sooner your reign of freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit is over the better off we'll be.
Hopefully Steve Baker wins the leadership and gets rid of all of you in one swoop and you can go back to leading your grey lives churning out papers that no one will ever read and we can go back to not caring about what you do again.
That seems to be a rather intemperate response to a thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasoned poster. You've no idea what his views are on freedom, mask wearing, or what a tolerable level of deaths is, have you? Really, you just want to cancel him.
Not at all, I have no issue with him either advising the government or speaking to the media. Choose one. At the moment dissent isn't limited to minutes, it's spread far and wide across multiple media outlets to try and influence policy decisions after they've been made and it's being done by people who have not been elected or faced any serious scrutiny on their personal or political agendas.
It's a ridiculous situation that we've let such unelected people to have such a huge influence on how we live as we, the people, have no way of getting rid of this new ruling class of experts and people who think they know what's best for me and everyone else. You might be happy to live under that, I'm not.
Government asks advice from people specialised in their field and a broad selection of that field will have a range of different views.
But the buck stops with government, they make the decisions based on what they have heard from all sides. It's foolish to blame the advisers IMO.
I wonder what its like when SeanT gets banned and has to regenerate.
Is it like Doctor Who - a burst of energy then a new face/username? Is it like Captain Jack when he actually lies there unbreathing for a few minutes until coming back with a big gasp? Is it like one of the Cylons where they awake on the resurrection ship?
What was he banned for this time? I think I will miss his brand of stupidity. Yes he is an idiot, often expressing obnoxious views, but it is fun needling him. He did mange to be reasonably restrained when I suggested SeanT's books were the poor man's Dan Brown lol.
And yet any time the politicians decide that something else trumps the science they go and mouth off to their nearest media outlet. You all want to have your cake and eat it, on the one hand you say it's politicians that have to make the decisions and they are free to make decisions that you don't agree with but then at the same time you say it's unfair that SAGE members aren't bound by the same rules as the civil service on speaking to media directly (don't fucking do it).
So ultimately we have a tyranny of scientists who think they know what's best for us because the government knows the media will go mental every time one of you lot go rogue and decide that actually, you know what's better for the country than the people who have been elected.
It's a remarkably odd definition of "tyranny" to say that people having free speech constitutes tyranny! You think there's less tyranny if I'm not allowed to say anything?
SAGE participants are not civil servants. SAGE participation is part-time. Very, very part-time now for the sub-committees. We're not paid by Government. We have no employment contract with Govt. Science, like many things, is better done in the open, with transparency. That's why all SAGE minutes are published fairly promptly.
Government was very concerned about academic freedom recently. Are we only free to speak when we say things the government likes?
But that's the point, you're on the one hand saying your advice to the government is just advice but on the other hand telling us that you should be free to bitch to the media when the government decides that your advice is just advisory.
Simply, you want to pretend that you aren't trying to influence policy decisions outside of your remit by maintaining a pretence that the government is free to ignore your advice but then the first moment this happens you'll bitch to the media that the government is "ignoring the science" or whatever else. It's only been happening for a year.
The sooner your reign of freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit is over the better off we'll be.
Hopefully Steve Baker wins the leadership and gets rid of all of you in one swoop and you can go back to leading your grey lives churning out papers that no one will ever read and we can go back to not caring about what you do again.
That seems to be a rather intemperate response to a thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasoned poster. You've no idea what his views are on freedom, mask wearing, or what a tolerable level of deaths is, have you? Really, you just want to cancel him.
Not at all, I have no issue with him either advising the government or speaking to the media. Choose one. At the moment dissent isn't limited to minutes, it's spread far and wide across multiple media outlets to try and influence policy decisions after they've been made and it's being done by people who have not been elected or faced any serious scrutiny on their personal or political agendas.
It's a ridiculous situation that we've let such unelected people to have such a huge influence on how we live as we, the people, have no way of getting rid of this new ruling class of experts and people who think they know what's best for me and everyone else. You might be happy to live under that, I'm not.
I think that you'd find that unelected people have always had a huge influence on how we live, whether they be the 'captains of industry', the financiers, the Royals, the Dom Cummings of this world, and so on and so on.
Anyway, my main point is that you didn't have to be so rude to bondegezou, a very courteous poster, and that you have no idea what s/he thinks, you just make assumptions.
And yet any time the politicians decide that something else trumps the science they go and mouth off to their nearest media outlet. You all want to have your cake and eat it, on the one hand you say it's politicians that have to make the decisions and they are free to make decisions that you don't agree with but then at the same time you say it's unfair that SAGE members aren't bound by the same rules as the civil service on speaking to media directly (don't fucking do it).
So ultimately we have a tyranny of scientists who think they know what's best for us because the government knows the media will go mental every time one of you lot go rogue and decide that actually, you know what's better for the country than the people who have been elected.
It's a remarkably odd definition of "tyranny" to say that people having free speech constitutes tyranny! You think there's less tyranny if I'm not allowed to say anything?
SAGE participants are not civil servants. SAGE participation is part-time. Very, very part-time now for the sub-committees. We're not paid by Government. We have no employment contract with Govt. Science, like many things, is better done in the open, with transparency. That's why all SAGE minutes are published fairly promptly.
Government was very concerned about academic freedom recently. Are we only free to speak when we say things the government likes?
But that's the point, you're on the one hand saying your advice to the government is just advice but on the other hand telling us that you should be free to bitch to the media when the government decides that your advice is just advisory.
Simply, you want to pretend that you aren't trying to influence policy decisions outside of your remit by maintaining a pretence that the government is free to ignore your advice but then the first moment this happens you'll bitch to the media that the government is "ignoring the science" or whatever else. It's only been happening for a year.
The sooner your reign of freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit is over the better off we'll be.
Hopefully Steve Baker wins the leadership and gets rid of all of you in one swoop and you can go back to leading your grey lives churning out papers that no one will ever read and we can go back to not caring about what you do again.
That seems to be a rather intemperate response to a thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasoned poster. You've no idea what his views are on freedom, mask wearing, or what a tolerable level of deaths is, have you? Really, you just want to cancel him.
Not at all, I have no issue with him either advising the government or speaking to the media. Choose one. At the moment dissent isn't limited to minutes, it's spread far and wide across multiple media outlets to try and influence policy decisions after they've been made and it's being done by people who have not been elected or faced any serious scrutiny on their personal or political agendas.
It's a ridiculous situation that we've let such unelected people to have such a huge influence on how we live as we, the people, have no way of getting rid of this new ruling class of experts and people who think they know what's best for me and everyone else. You might be happy to live under that, I'm not.
Government asks advice from people specialised in their field and a broad selection of that field will have a range of different views.
But the buck stops with government, they make the decisions based on what they have heard from all sides. It's foolish to blame the advisers IMO.
Again, I have no issue with advisors advising. I take issue with them mouthing off to the media the minute a decision goes against them. They need to be bound by the same rules as civil servants on speaking to the media. If they don't like it then they can lump it and leave SAGE.
I wonder what its like when SeanT gets banned and has to regenerate.
Is it like Doctor Who - a burst of energy then a new face/username? Is it like Captain Jack when he actually lies there unbreathing for a few minutes until coming back with a big gasp? Is it like one of the Cylons where they awake on the resurrection ship?
What was he banned for this time? I think I will miss his brand of stupidity. Yes he is an idiot, often expressing obnoxious views, but it is fun needling him. He did mange to be reasonably restrained when I suggested SeanT's books were the poor man's Dan Brown lol.
He was one of the half dozen most intelligent posters on the site. You, to put it mildly, are not.
Good Guardian story where despite the 5 million + successful EU settlement applications they have found one where the Home Office never answers the phone, their employer acts illegally, a specialist charity can't sort it and everyone has been an idiot.
Some cases make you wonder what MPs are for. It's one where a sensible one could sort it swiftly.
How many years has that settlement scheme been open for yet she applied on the very last day (June 30th) even though she was made aware of the problem on June 28th.
You would have thought you would drop what you were doing and applied immediately but nope she waited another day before doing so.
Indeed, everyone has been an idiot. including the person herself, who despite being born in Spain and living virtually all her life in the UK never thought to explore the issue of passports. It is possible that the Guardian had to scrape around a bit to find an anti-Tory story here. Still, it's like some of the Windrush cases; people who don't spend their lives taking formal bureaucratic care about eventualities still shouldn't be treated abominably. And government departments should answer the phone.
Why should Government departments answer the phone for back office processes enquires when process times and position in the queue is available online - the only reason people are ringing is to get their cases prioritised over others.
And answering phone calls takes time, one of the things I spend my time working on is removing reasons for people to ring up as every phone call costs £x to handle.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
I don't even understand what he means. What on earth is the Johnson Variant?
Delta has been called the Johnson Variant by some on social media because of this perception that Boris failed when it came to letting Delta get a foothold in this country.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
I don't even understand what he means. What on earth is the Johnson Variant?
Delta, because he let it in from India. We're not allowed to call it the Indian variant any more because racist? But its ok to call it the Johnson variant...
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
Demeaning? We're back to this morning's upset caused to the Clown Apologists.
Repeat the same line over and over and over until it sticks. They (rightly) want to pin the blame on Delta on the man who kept the border with India open to let it come here and seed itself across the country.
Calling it after him is only objectionable if you are an apologist.
So is Johnson responsible for the global Delta variant rise too?
I wonder what its like when SeanT gets banned and has to regenerate.
Is it like Doctor Who - a burst of energy then a new face/username? Is it like Captain Jack when he actually lies there unbreathing for a few minutes until coming back with a big gasp? Is it like one of the Cylons where they awake on the resurrection ship?
What was he banned for this time? I think I will miss his brand of stupidity. Yes he is an idiot, often expressing obnoxious views, but it is fun needling him. He did mange to be reasonably restrained when I suggested SeanT's books were the poor man's Dan Brown lol.
I'd be relaxed too if I'd sold as many books as SeanT has. Even if they are not exactly Wordsworth, they make money...
And yet any time the politicians decide that something else trumps the science they go and mouth off to their nearest media outlet. You all want to have your cake and eat it, on the one hand you say it's politicians that have to make the decisions and they are free to make decisions that you don't agree with but then at the same time you say it's unfair that SAGE members aren't bound by the same rules as the civil service on speaking to media directly (don't fucking do it).
So ultimately we have a tyranny of scientists who think they know what's best for us because the government knows the media will go mental every time one of you lot go rogue and decide that actually, you know what's better for the country than the people who have been elected.
It's a remarkably odd definition of "tyranny" to say that people having free speech constitutes tyranny! You think there's less tyranny if I'm not allowed to say anything?
SAGE participants are not civil servants. SAGE participation is part-time. Very, very part-time now for the sub-committees. We're not paid by Government. We have no employment contract with Govt. Science, like many things, is better done in the open, with transparency. That's why all SAGE minutes are published fairly promptly.
Government was very concerned about academic freedom recently. Are we only free to speak when we say things the government likes?
But that's the point, you're on the one hand saying your advice to the government is just advice but on the other hand telling us that you should be free to bitch to the media when the government decides that your advice is just advisory.
Simply, you want to pretend that you aren't trying to influence policy decisions outside of your remit by maintaining a pretence that the government is free to ignore your advice but then the first moment this happens you'll bitch to the media that the government is "ignoring the science" or whatever else. It's only been happening for a year.
The sooner your reign of freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit is over the better off we'll be.
Hopefully Steve Baker wins the leadership and gets rid of all of you in one swoop and you can go back to leading your grey lives churning out papers that no one will ever read and we can go back to not caring about what you do again.
That seems to be a rather intemperate response to a thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasoned poster. You've no idea what his views are on freedom, mask wearing, or what a tolerable level of deaths is, have you? Really, you just want to cancel him.
Not at all, I have no issue with him either advising the government or speaking to the media. Choose one. At the moment dissent isn't limited to minutes, it's spread far and wide across multiple media outlets to try and influence policy decisions after they've been made and it's being done by people who have not been elected or faced any serious scrutiny on their personal or political agendas.
It's a ridiculous situation that we've let such unelected people to have such a huge influence on how we live as we, the people, have no way of getting rid of this new ruling class of experts and people who think they know what's best for me and everyone else. You might be happy to live under that, I'm not.
There are obvious problems with that.
Choose between being on SAGE and being able to say what you like, fine. But that will tend to self-select SAGE to be scientists who will either (a) be easily cowed or (b) have views that align neatly with what the government wants to do. In that case, we would actually need an indepenent SAGE and it would be populated by real scientists with those with dodgy credentials on SAGE.
It's akin to letting the funders of a study decide whether or not the results get published. That was a big problem in clinical trials for a long time and we've correctly tried to move away from that.
I do think scientists should be circumspect - if I were on SAGE I'd not be seeking out media interviews if I disagreed with government policy, but neither would I lie or refuse to comment if asked. FWIW I think SAGE members have largely been quite careful, it's those on indiSAGE etc who have been jumping on the TV at every opportunity. But it is important that the government can't just hide behind "following the science" when that is not what they are doing and it's healthy for the scientific debate to be in the open. If the government policy diverges from the scientific advice then the government should be able and willing to explain why.
As for "freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit" I don't know of any of my colleagues who fit that description. There was a fairly even split on June delay, no one I know really thinks the decisions now are a bad thing - some think it might get quite bad, but none think it will be much better to wait.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
I don't even understand what he means. What on earth is the Johnson Variant?
Delta, because he let it in from India. We're not allowed to call it the Indian variant any more because racist? But its ok to call it the Johnson variant...
So Delta is the major variant now in 90 odd countries because of Boris? I think SKS is spending too long in the sun.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
Demeaning? We're back to this morning's upset caused to the Clown Apologists.
Repeat the same line over and over and over until it sticks. They (rightly) want to pin the blame on Delta on the man who kept the border with India open to let it come here and seed itself across the country.
Calling it after him is only objectionable if you are an apologist.
Not at all
It is misleading and adds nothing to the seriousness of the debate
Most nobody will even know what he is referring to
18,186 new first doses in the whole of the UK? What on earth is going on?
No one left to vaccinate. vaccination centres are everywhere but are quite, there was even a walk in vaccination centre at the Golf.
There is not much more the Government can do.
It's one reason why you either need to vaccinate under 18s or allow 18-30 year olds to bring their vaccinations forward otherwise vaccination numbers of the next 2 weeks will drop like a stone.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
I don't even understand what he means. What on earth is the Johnson Variant?
It beggars belief that he should descend into such misleading and near childish name calling on a subject so serious
And they wonder why he is not making polling advances
Quite right. You would never witness the Prime Minister making misleading statements, or indulging in childish name calling, would you? Perish the thought.
18,186 new first doses in the whole of the UK? What on earth is going on?
No one left to vaccinate. vaccination centres are everywhere but are quite, there was even a walk in vaccination centre at the Golf.
There is not much more the Government can do.
There is just under 7m adults still to vaccinate. The priority for the government is to think how they are to be persuaded to come forward. A combination of sticks and treats seems the obvious answer. So make being double vaxxed your passport to the nightclub, the Mediterranean beach, the cricket, whatever, and make it clear that those who are not will need frequent testing and to isolate if they come into contact with the infected. In short make not being vaxxed a bloody nuisance.
Some distasteful remark about Germans drowning.....not sure how far he was into his cups by then but after his workout he'd said he'd be ordering shots at the bar.....
18,186 new first doses in the whole of the UK? What on earth is going on?
No one left to vaccinate. vaccination centres are everywhere but are quite, there was even a walk in vaccination centre at the Golf.
There is not much more the Government can do.
There are plenty of people left to vaccinate. Get them booked in quicker as was done before. There is absolutely no reason to slow down, they can fill the vaccination centres with the unvaccinated as they have done from the start.
Either the organisation has fallen down, or we are desperately short of vaccines, or the remaining millions who haven't had both jabs are refusing.
18,186 new first doses in the whole of the UK? What on earth is going on?
No one left to vaccinate. vaccination centres are everywhere but are quite, there was even a walk in vaccination centre at the Golf.
There is not much more the Government can do.
I can't believe there isn't supply to vax 16 + 17 yr olds at this point, even if insufficient to do 12 - 15. JCVI umming and arring when we could be getting on with it.
I do not understand why folk are irritated by other people wearing masks?
I find it very difficult to work out what people are saying if their mouth us covered.
I also find it more difficult to read people's expressions. Such a lot of communication is done through facial expressions - particularly the base animal communications like expressing friendly and non-threatening intent. This is more difficult with a mask. You have to assume it. It's almost always the case of course that people are friendly and non-threatening, but it is more difficult to be put at ease by a mask-wearer.
A friend who is a judge of left-libertarian leanings is torn on this - he does think that it's easier to make a judgment on veracity if you can see the full face, but he appreciates that witnesses used to wearing hijabs, masks or whatever may feel uncomfortable without and appear evasive when they're not. Ironically giving evidence from home is easier since the mask issue goes away.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
I don't even understand what he means. What on earth is the Johnson Variant?
The variant that our PM let into the country in large quantity at Easter? In any event, it might turn out to be a good line. Suggests a malevolent force at loose in the country, causing harm to business and life generally. While I think our PM doesn't mind the Clown, I think that if the name 'Johnson Variant' sticks for the current mutation, he'll hate it.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
He needs to get a grip on this (I assume/hope it's some flunkey actually writing this nonsense) but it's the official account and it reflects badly. Was Starmer advocating restrictions on travel from India before Delta arrived?
Genuinely what do you think will change the current situation?
The Tories has messed up on Delta variant, had the Hancock scandal, Cummings saying Boris isn't fit to be PM and bodies piled high (etc), ongoing sleaze, Patel / Boris been accused as racist enablers....and yet Labour are further behind than before.
I keep thinking this is the one that will do it, but it doesn't seem to.
I think Labour just need to keep telling people they are stupid for believing Boris's lies and they are subhuman for voting Tory. That's how you win people back.
I've just been talking to someone in another place who *still* seems to think that opposition parties can ignore the people who are not voting for them already, and that somehow instructing existing voters to place their cross next to the party best placed to evict the Tory will usher in a Progressive Alliance (always capitals) who introduce PR which will, de jure, consign Conservatism to the wastebin of history.
For those of us who want to see the back of the current incarnation of the UK gov, it is dispiriting.
Except it wouldn't, as we saw the LDs even were in government with the Conservatives from 2010 to 2015.
PR would likely see something similar with the LDs kingmakers, UKIP back up to 10 to 15% of the vote, the Conservatives more Cameroon to be able to deal with the LDs and the Corbynite left splitting from Starmer Labour to form their own hard left party
I completely agree. I think PR is *more* likely to create a centre-right hegemony than less. They are totally deluded.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
Demeaning? We're back to this morning's upset caused to the Clown Apologists.
Repeat the same line over and over and over until it sticks. They (rightly) want to pin the blame on Delta on the man who kept the border with India open to let it come here and seed itself across the country.
Calling it after him is only objectionable if you are an apologist.
Not at all
It is misleading and adds nothing to the seriousness of the debate
Most nobody will even know what he is referring to
And this from someone who wants to be PM
Indeed. Serkeir should follow the example of Boris. Have ludicrous hair, speak in streams of consciousness, hide in fridges on live TV to avoid questions, and openly lie. That's what a proper Prime Minister looks like.
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
I don't even understand what he means. What on earth is the Johnson Variant?
It beggars belief that he should descend into such misleading and near childish name calling on a subject so serious
And they wonder why he is not making polling advances
Quite right. You would never witness the Prime Minister making misleading statements, or indulging in childish name calling, would you? Perish the thought.
Do you really think it is responsible for Starmer to call this deadly virus catching hold across the world the Johnson variant
Not really. Imagine the flapping noise if the Govt made a decision to exclude Michie.
Governments are concerned with what people say ("flapping noise", if you like). That's because we live in a democracy, which is a good thing, yes?
The point is that Government decides who to ask for advice and they decide what to do with that advice. Sure, some power rests in those advising on important issues, but it is not an untrammeled power. The fantasy that SAGE rules over us is a delusion. Government rules over us. The circumstances of a global pandemic can be said to rule over us. SAGE is a cog in a complex machine feeding advice into government.
Let’s not get excited but 39,950 today as compared to 34,471 reported last Monday comes under the heading “much better than feared”. A 15% or so increase week on week?
Good Guardian story where despite the 5 million + successful EU settlement applications they have found one where the Home Office never answers the phone, their employer acts illegally, a specialist charity can't sort it and everyone has been an idiot.
Some cases make you wonder what MPs are for. It's one where a sensible one could sort it swiftly.
Plus of course with the scheme having been open for years the lady in question left it until the very, very, very last possible day before putting her paperwork in, which then wasn't done electronically.
Let’s not get excited but 39,950 today as compared to 34,471 reported last Monday comes under the heading “much better than feared”. A 15% or so increase week on week?
Most likely just people not reporting cases – off work due to hot weather? Dunno.
18,186 new first doses in the whole of the UK? What on earth is going on?
No one left to vaccinate. vaccination centres are everywhere but are quite, there was even a walk in vaccination centre at the Golf.
There is not much more the Government can do.
There are plenty of people left to vaccinate. Get them booked in quicker as was done before. There is absolutely no reason to slow down, they can fill the vaccination centres with the unvaccinated as they have done from the start.
Either the organisation has fallen down, or we are desperately short of vaccines, or the remaining millions who haven't had both jabs are refusing.
I'm sorry to say I believe it is the refusing now. There was a young chap on the radio last week who would not be persuaded to have the jab. I have described before the impact of 'clean eating', morphing into the idea of not using medicines (not allowing anything 'unnatural' into the body) and how prevalent this is among some of the young. There is no supply crunch anymore, if you want to get the vaccine you can. That 7m are not done is because they do not want it. Their choice. I sincerely hope that if they catch covid they don't regret not being vaccinated.
Let’s not get excited but 39,950 today as compared to 34,471 reported last Monday comes under the heading “much better than feared”. A 15% or so increase week on week?
18,186 new first doses in the whole of the UK? What on earth is going on?
No one left to vaccinate. vaccination centres are everywhere but are quite, there was even a walk in vaccination centre at the Golf.
There is not much more the Government can do.
There are plenty of people left to vaccinate. Get them booked in quicker as was done before. There is absolutely no reason to slow down, they can fill the vaccination centres with the unvaccinated as they have done from the start.
Either the organisation has fallen down, or we are desperately short of vaccines, or the remaining millions who haven't had both jabs are refusing.
We are down to the anti vax idiots and the can't -be-arsed crowd unfortunately
Genuinely what do you think will change the current situation?
The Tories has messed up on Delta variant, had the Hancock scandal, Cummings saying Boris isn't fit to be PM and bodies piled high (etc), ongoing sleaze, Patel / Boris been accused as racist enablers....and yet Labour are further behind than before.
I keep thinking this is the one that will do it, but it doesn't seem to.
I think Labour just need to keep telling people they are stupid for believing Boris's lies and they are subhuman for voting Tory. That's how you win people back.
I've just been talking to someone in another place who *still* seems to think that opposition parties can ignore the people who are not voting for them already, and that somehow instructing existing voters to place their cross next to the party best placed to evict the Tory will usher in a Progressive Alliance (always capitals) who introduce PR which will, de jure, consign Conservatism to the wastebin of history.
For those of us who want to see the back of the current incarnation of the UK gov, it is dispiriting.
Except it wouldn't, as we saw the LDs even were in government with the Conservatives from 2010 to 2015.
PR would likely see something similar with the LDs kingmakers, UKIP back up to 10 to 15% of the vote, the Conservatives more Cameroon to be able to deal with the LDs and the Corbynite left splitting from Starmer Labour to form their own hard left party
I completely agree. I think PR is *more* likely to create a centre-right hegemony than less. They are totally deluded.
Why would anyone of a Kipper persuasion vote UKIP as opposed to Tory.
And yet any time the politicians decide that something else trumps the science they go and mouth off to their nearest media outlet. You all want to have your cake and eat it, on the one hand you say it's politicians that have to make the decisions and they are free to make decisions that you don't agree with but then at the same time you say it's unfair that SAGE members aren't bound by the same rules as the civil service on speaking to media directly (don't fucking do it).
So ultimately we have a tyranny of scientists who think they know what's best for us because the government knows the media will go mental every time one of you lot go rogue and decide that actually, you know what's better for the country than the people who have been elected.
It's a remarkably odd definition of "tyranny" to say that people having free speech constitutes tyranny! You think there's less tyranny if I'm not allowed to say anything?
SAGE participants are not civil servants. SAGE participation is part-time. Very, very part-time now for the sub-committees. We're not paid by Government. We have no employment contract with Govt. Science, like many things, is better done in the open, with transparency. That's why all SAGE minutes are published fairly promptly.
Government was very concerned about academic freedom recently. Are we only free to speak when we say things the government likes?
But that's the point, you're on the one hand saying your advice to the government is just advice but on the other hand telling us that you should be free to bitch to the media when the government decides that your advice is just advisory.
Simply, you want to pretend that you aren't trying to influence policy decisions outside of your remit by maintaining a pretence that the government is free to ignore your advice but then the first moment this happens you'll bitch to the media that the government is "ignoring the science" or whatever else. It's only been happening for a year.
The sooner your reign of freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit is over the better off we'll be.
Hopefully Steve Baker wins the leadership and gets rid of all of you in one swoop and you can go back to leading your grey lives churning out papers that no one will ever read and we can go back to not caring about what you do again.
That seems to be a rather intemperate response to a thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasoned poster. You've no idea what his views are on freedom, mask wearing, or what a tolerable level of deaths is, have you? Really, you just want to cancel him.
Not at all, I have no issue with him either advising the government or speaking to the media. Choose one. At the moment dissent isn't limited to minutes, it's spread far and wide across multiple media outlets to try and influence policy decisions after they've been made and it's being done by people who have not been elected or faced any serious scrutiny on their personal or political agendas.
It's a ridiculous situation that we've let such unelected people to have such a huge influence on how we live as we, the people, have no way of getting rid of this new ruling class of experts and people who think they know what's best for me and everyone else. You might be happy to live under that, I'm not.
There are obvious problems with that.
Choose between being on SAGE and being able to say what you like, fine. But that will tend to self-select SAGE to be scientists who will either (a) be easily cowed or (b) have views that align neatly with what the government wants to do. In that case, we would actually need an indepenent SAGE and it would be populated by real scientists with those with dodgy credentials on SAGE.
It's akin to letting the funders of a study decide whether or not the results get published. That was a big problem in clinical trials for a long time and we've correctly tried to move away from that.
I do think scientists should be circumspect - if I were on SAGE I'd not be seeking out media interviews if I disagreed with government policy, but neither would I lie or refuse to comment if asked. FWIW I think SAGE members have largely been quite careful, it's those on indiSAGE etc who have been jumping on the TV at every opportunity. But it is important that the government can't just hide behind "following the science" when that is not what they are doing and it's healthy for the scientific debate to be in the open. If the government policy diverges from the scientific advice then the government should be able and willing to explain why.
As for "freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit" I don't know of any of my colleagues who fit that description. There was a fairly even split on June delay, no one I know really thinks the decisions now are a bad thing - some think it might get quite bad, but none think it will be much better to wait.
But I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to dissent. In fact dissent is necessary as that's the only way to make an informed choice. My issue is specifically that the dissenters will go off to their favourite media organisation and bitch about the decision and try and influence national policy after the fact. Dissent stays in the minutes, that's the only way this works properly.
What we've had over the last year is completely muddled decision making because the scientists can't be trusted and neither can the politicians. Every decision the latter makes has a 3 or 4 day cooling off period for official government advisors to sound off to the media to get it reversed. Masks was just the latest one, the decision was made but the scientists think they know what's best for us and tried to reverse it with policy trial by media so we get this odd muddled policy that no one's happy with.
I advise my company's management on strategic decisions, sometimes (a lot of the time, in fact) they go against my advice. I don't then go and bitch internally about how they are wrong and fucking everything up, I just get on with life and make sure next time I am better prepared with evidence or business outlines to support my ideas better.
Because Western governments insist on shackling the recovery with restrictions or threats of restrictions, the recovery is not a strong as it might be.
Trouble is, inflation is now accelerating, so the old money printing trick is a much tougher ask
Or ''F8cking nightmare that was always coming'', as it is otherwise known.
Don't know whether it's a data issue, but cases reported do look better than expected.
Multicoloured graph to make days of the week variation easy to spot:
(NB: England-only, so as to remove the Scottish drops from the context).
Whilst I'm still somewhat concerned about the opening up, the hospitalisation figures are more encouraging than expected. Dropping below 2% of cases-from-7-days-ago, I have them (in England) running at just under 1.7% as of the 17th. Numbers in hospital down to about 9% of cases from 7 days earlier, which is also a good sign.
I'd like to see those percentages dropping faster, but at least they're still dropping. I'd guess that 100,000 cases per day (in England) would see hospital occupancy still below 10,000 in England.
And yet any time the politicians decide that something else trumps the science they go and mouth off to their nearest media outlet. You all want to have your cake and eat it, on the one hand you say it's politicians that have to make the decisions and they are free to make decisions that you don't agree with but then at the same time you say it's unfair that SAGE members aren't bound by the same rules as the civil service on speaking to media directly (don't fucking do it).
So ultimately we have a tyranny of scientists who think they know what's best for us because the government knows the media will go mental every time one of you lot go rogue and decide that actually, you know what's better for the country than the people who have been elected.
It's a remarkably odd definition of "tyranny" to say that people having free speech constitutes tyranny! You think there's less tyranny if I'm not allowed to say anything?
SAGE participants are not civil servants. SAGE participation is part-time. Very, very part-time now for the sub-committees. We're not paid by Government. We have no employment contract with Govt. Science, like many things, is better done in the open, with transparency. That's why all SAGE minutes are published fairly promptly.
Government was very concerned about academic freedom recently. Are we only free to speak when we say things the government likes?
But that's the point, you're on the one hand saying your advice to the government is just advice but on the other hand telling us that you should be free to bitch to the media when the government decides that your advice is just advisory.
Simply, you want to pretend that you aren't trying to influence policy decisions outside of your remit by maintaining a pretence that the government is free to ignore your advice but then the first moment this happens you'll bitch to the media that the government is "ignoring the science" or whatever else. It's only been happening for a year.
The sooner your reign of freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit is over the better off we'll be.
Hopefully Steve Baker wins the leadership and gets rid of all of you in one swoop and you can go back to leading your grey lives churning out papers that no one will ever read and we can go back to not caring about what you do again.
That seems to be a rather intemperate response to a thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasoned poster. You've no idea what his views are on freedom, mask wearing, or what a tolerable level of deaths is, have you? Really, you just want to cancel him.
Not at all, I have no issue with him either advising the government or speaking to the media. Choose one. At the moment dissent isn't limited to minutes, it's spread far and wide across multiple media outlets to try and influence policy decisions after they've been made and it's being done by people who have not been elected or faced any serious scrutiny on their personal or political agendas.
It's a ridiculous situation that we've let such unelected people to have such a huge influence on how we live as we, the people, have no way of getting rid of this new ruling class of experts and people who think they know what's best for me and everyone else. You might be happy to live under that, I'm not.
There are obvious problems with that.
Choose between being on SAGE and being able to say what you like, fine. But that will tend to self-select SAGE to be scientists who will either (a) be easily cowed or (b) have views that align neatly with what the government wants to do. In that case, we would actually need an indepenent SAGE and it would be populated by real scientists with those with dodgy credentials on SAGE.
It's akin to letting the funders of a study decide whether or not the results get published. That was a big problem in clinical trials for a long time and we've correctly tried to move away from that.
I do think scientists should be circumspect - if I were on SAGE I'd not be seeking out media interviews if I disagreed with government policy, but neither would I lie or refuse to comment if asked. FWIW I think SAGE members have largely been quite careful, it's those on indiSAGE etc who have been jumping on the TV at every opportunity. But it is important that the government can't just hide behind "following the science" when that is not what they are doing and it's healthy for the scientific debate to be in the open. If the government policy diverges from the scientific advice then the government should be able and willing to explain why.
As for "freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit" I don't know of any of my colleagues who fit that description. There was a fairly even split on June delay, no one I know really thinks the decisions now are a bad thing - some think it might get quite bad, but none think it will be much better to wait.
There is a good reason for the 30-year rule. It is to enable governments to weigh up options, some of which might be contemporaneously controversial, and to be able to reach a decision without external pressure when people who glimpse some of the decision-making processes can't see the big picture.
I think with Sage it is similar. ie the govt is making decisions, crucial, life-affecting decisions, with one of its flanks exposed to the public. Hence we might get to hear, often from SAGE, that unlocking will bring such and such a consequence, but we don't get to hear from behavioural psychologists that not unlocking will bring another set of consequences. Or from economists, or...or...
That is the problem with SAGE. It seems only they simultaneously consult with govt, which is fantastic and great and vital, but also give a running commentary about the process.
Clément Beaune, France's Europe minister, has criticized the restrictions set last week by the UK government for travelers going from France to England, calling the new rules "excessive" and "not totally founded on science."
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
He needs to get a grip on this (I assume/hope it's some flunkey actually writing this nonsense) but it's the official account and it reflects badly. Was Starmer advocating restrictions on travel from India before Delta arrived?
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
I don't even understand what he means. What on earth is the Johnson Variant?
It beggars belief that he should descend into such misleading and near childish name calling on a subject so serious
And they wonder why he is not making polling advances
Well, if one leaves routes from India open whilst closing Pakistan and Bangladesh, despite India having a higher infection rate at the time, because Johnson fancied a trade jolly. And the new variant is then referred to as the "Indian" variant, maybe there appears an unfortunate correlation. Not how I would put it, I am far too polite, however I see why the allusion could be made.
I do not understand why folk are irritated by other people wearing masks?
I find it very difficult to work out what people are saying if their mouth us covered.
I also find it more difficult to read people's expressions. Such a lot of communication is done through facial expressions - particularly the base animal communications like expressing friendly and non-threatening intent. This is more difficult with a mask. You have to assume it. It's almost always the case of course that people are friendly and non-threatening, but it is more difficult to be put at ease by a mask-wearer.
A friend who is a judge of left-libertarian leanings is torn on this - he does think that it's easier to make a judgment on veracity if you can see the full face, but he appreciates that witnesses used to wearing hijabs, masks or whatever may feel uncomfortable without and appear evasive when they're not. Ironically giving evidence from home is easier since the mask issue goes away.
But you have a whole new set of problems. Trying to judge the credibility of a witness who is giving evidence remotely is incredibly difficult. So many of the non verbal clues are not visible. Quite often the words do not even align with the facial expression. It's seriously difficult and unsatisfactory.
Comments
Whilst I wouldn't necessarily call myself a rugged individualist, a free-thinking maverick, a lone wolf sticking it to the man, a lantern-jawed square-shouldered Randian Atlas, I did feel a teeny tiny bit like that!
Hopefully (fingers crossed) more and more people, including you, will feel comfortable ditching them over the next few days and weeks.
You would have thought you would drop what you were doing and applied immediately but nope she waited another day before doing so.
LNER is a train company owned by the UK Government. Is it still maintaining that when it operates in Scotland it is going to disregard Scottish public health and safety coronavirus rules? This is as tenable as Boris Johnson's exemption from social distancing regulations. #LNER
https://twitter.com/AngusRobertson/status/1417106468550193153?s=20
Whereas a 30 minute shop in a big Tesco a mask is having some impact, and a 20 minute tube journey at rush hour the masks are having a really big impact. Horses for courses is the way forward.
You only need to look at the front of the Mail screaming 'the price of freedom' because some SAGE scientist has thought of a number in terms of cases and added a zero.
It is still going on, partly because Johnson is the worst type of gutless coward who cannot make a decision one way or the other.
Plus "libtard" now that I think about it raises some questions.
Altogether not your best moment.
Perhaps I am Sean? Perhaps you are? Is He all of us?
I fail to see how they can all continue. There doesn't seem to be a queue at any of them lately.
Like you say. Used to be half hour.
https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1417133517369135106?s=20
Maybe they should just disembark at Berwick & walk.....as neither LNER nor ScotRail can guarantee social distancing?
Could it be - outrageous as it is - that Mr Robertson is grandstanding?
It's a ridiculous situation that we've let such unelected people to have such a huge influence on how we live as we, the people, have no way of getting rid of this new ruling class of experts and people who think they know what's best for me and everyone else. You might be happy to live under that, I'm not.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1417103159047118849
Lifting all restrictions at once is reckless - and doing so when the Johnson Variant is already out of control risks a summer of chaos.
Labour does not support the Government’s plan.
Boris Johnson’s incompetence will have deadly consequences for the British public.
For someone like Scotrail where its out in the sticks, what are they supposed to do if they end up with more passengers than socially-distanced seats? Turf the surplus out at Altnabreac?
Repeat the same line over and over and over until it sticks. They (rightly) want to pin the blame on Delta on the man who kept the border with India open to let it come here and seed itself across the country.
Calling it after him is only objectionable if you are an apologist.
A thread on all the stuff that’s not going very well so far at the Olympics:
1/ Positive cases and contact tracing are taking down athletes. Coco Gauff out of the tennis, two South African footballers also positive as well as the SA sevens rugby coach
https://twitter.com/JamesAALongman/status/1416873193214599169
But the buck stops with government, they make the decisions based on what they have heard from all sides. It's foolish to blame the advisers IMO.
Anyway, my main point is that you didn't have to be so rude to bondegezou, a very courteous poster, and that you have no idea what s/he thinks, you just make assumptions.
16% higher than last Monday, which does of course mean cases are going up, but not by as much.
On 19 July, 39,950 new cases and 19 deaths within 28 days of a positive test were reported across the UK.
46,314,039 people have now received the first dose of a #vaccine. 36,099,727 have received a 2nd dose.
https://twitter.com/PHE_uk/status/1417137657042411520?s=20
And answering phone calls takes time, one of the things I spend my time working on is removing reasons for people to ring up as every phone call costs £x to handle.
It wouldn't be the language I would use, but if future variants come to pass, it might resonate with waverers.
Let's face Johnson is comfortable hitting below the belt.
There is not much more the Government can do.
And they wonder why he is not making polling advances
Choose between being on SAGE and being able to say what you like, fine. But that will tend to self-select SAGE to be scientists who will either (a) be easily cowed or (b) have views that align neatly with what the government wants to do. In that case, we would actually need an indepenent SAGE and it would be populated by real scientists with those with dodgy credentials on SAGE.
It's akin to letting the funders of a study decide whether or not the results get published. That was a big problem in clinical trials for a long time and we've correctly tried to move away from that.
I do think scientists should be circumspect - if I were on SAGE I'd not be seeking out media interviews if I disagreed with government policy, but neither would I lie or refuse to comment if asked. FWIW I think SAGE members have largely been quite careful, it's those on indiSAGE etc who have been jumping on the TV at every opportunity. But it is important that the government can't just hide behind "following the science" when that is not what they are doing and it's healthy for the scientific debate to be in the open. If the government policy diverges from the scientific advice then the government should be able and willing to explain why.
As for "freedom hating, mask wearing, no one can ever die again bullshit" I don't know of any of my colleagues who fit that description. There was a fairly even split on June delay, no one I know really thinks the decisions now are a bad thing - some think it might get quite bad, but none think it will be much better to wait.
Would still have been a new low, but not that low.
It is misleading and adds nothing to the seriousness of the debate
Most nobody will even know what he is referring to
And this from someone who wants to be PM
Delete the app, don't get tested, don;t get traced, get off the radar screen...?
(And yes, calling Delta that is pathetic – it should be beneath the Loto)
deltaJohnson variant sparks economic recovery fearshttps://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1417138233452945415?s=20
Either the organisation has fallen down, or we are desperately short of vaccines, or the remaining millions who haven't had both jabs are refusing.
Suggests a malevolent force at loose in the country, causing harm to business and life generally. While I think our PM doesn't mind the Clown, I think that if the name 'Johnson Variant' sticks for the current mutation, he'll hate it.
I thought he was supposed to be the serious one
The point is that Government decides who to ask for advice and they decide what to do with that advice. Sure, some power rests in those advising on important issues, but it is not an untrammeled power. The fantasy that SAGE rules over us is a delusion. Government rules over us. The circumstances of a global pandemic can be said to rule over us. SAGE is a cog in a complex machine feeding advice into government.
There is no supply crunch anymore, if you want to get the vaccine you can. That 7m are not done is because they do not want it.
Their choice. I sincerely hope that if they catch covid they don't regret not being vaccinated.
What we've had over the last year is completely muddled decision making because the scientists can't be trusted and neither can the politicians. Every decision the latter makes has a 3 or 4 day cooling off period for official government advisors to sound off to the media to get it reversed. Masks was just the latest one, the decision was made but the scientists think they know what's best for us and tried to reverse it with policy trial by media so we get this odd muddled policy that no one's happy with.
I advise my company's management on strategic decisions, sometimes (a lot of the time, in fact) they go against my advice. I don't then go and bitch internally about how they are wrong and fucking everything up, I just get on with life and make sure next time I am better prepared with evidence or business outlines to support my ideas better.
Trouble is, inflation is now accelerating, so the old money printing trick is a much tougher ask
Or ''F8cking nightmare that was always coming'', as it is otherwise known.
Multicoloured graph to make days of the week variation easy to spot:
(NB: England-only, so as to remove the Scottish drops from the context).
Whilst I'm still somewhat concerned about the opening up, the hospitalisation figures are more encouraging than expected. Dropping below 2% of cases-from-7-days-ago, I have them (in England) running at just under 1.7% as of the 17th. Numbers in hospital down to about 9% of cases from 7 days earlier, which is also a good sign.
I'd like to see those percentages dropping faster, but at least they're still dropping. I'd guess that 100,000 cases per day (in England) would see hospital occupancy still below 10,000 in England.
I think with Sage it is similar. ie the govt is making decisions, crucial, life-affecting decisions, with one of its flanks exposed to the public. Hence we might get to hear, often from SAGE, that unlocking will bring such and such a consequence, but we don't get to hear from behavioural psychologists that not unlocking will bring another set of consequences. Or from economists, or...or...
That is the problem with SAGE. It seems only they simultaneously consult with govt, which is fantastic and great and vital, but also give a running commentary about the process.
https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1417140542060773378?s=20
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55932464
As for Johnson variant... bit distasteful... but perhaps what Labour needs is to play a bit rougher with the Tories?