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BoJo’s “vaccine bounce” seems to be over but Starmer remains in negative territory – politicalbettin

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Comments

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Second time today for that line from you.....
    It is a leitmotif when discussing BritNat affairs.
    Perhaps independence would just be the beginning of a British risorgimento. After hubris comes nemesis.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Second time today for that line from you.....
    It is a leitmotif when discussing BritNat affairs.
    No 55%
    Yes 45%
    Increasing the Yes vote from 28% to 45% is hardly nemesis.

    Is there an echo in here?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Oh! What is the SNP nemesis? Will it ultimately be the man who was once the hero of all Nats, you know the one...he that was described as a "bully and sex pest" by his own QC? Whatsisname, the little fat arsehole who looks like a toad?
    55% of Scottish voters.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,568
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    Nation of bottlers. You voted to live under our jackboot. Time to deal with it.
    Clearly, masochism is very strong with the Scots.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Second time today for that line from you.....
    It is a leitmotif when discussing BritNat affairs.
    Perhaps independence would just be the beginning of a British risorgimento. After hubris comes nemesis.
    We’ll be on ‘il sorpasso’ next.

    (Too soon?)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    TimT said:

    Meanwhile, depressing news on the vaccination front from the US, where partisan politics are now the biggest part of the problem:

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-boosting-vaccination-rates-499047

    On the upside, the US is once again acting as a control experiment, as Florida, South Dakota and Texas did with lockdown.

    Imagine, for example, that infection rates and hospitalisations do not explode in US states with low vaccination rates.

    That would be awkward
    Firstly, awkward for whom?

    Secondly, vaccination rates are not the only thing that matters.

    For example, schools across the US are on summer vacation, and have been for at least a month. That closes down the biggest vector of transmission.

    There are a dozen other factors that relate to how well CV19 spreads, above and beyond vaccination rates. If you live on a farm in Wyoming, and you see your family and the guy at the feed shop once a week, then you know what? The fact that you haven't gotten vaccinated probably doesn't affect your likelihood of infection that much.

    But if you live in Chicago in a house shared with a dozen others, work in a busy store, and have to take the L to work during rush hour, then yeah, I'd think whether you're vaccinated is going to make a big fucking difference.

    Come September, we're going to see what happens when schools return, *and* Delta is well seeded in the US. My gut is that there are going to be some small town areas that get quite badly hit. Not Northern Italy or Manhattan in March 2020 badly hit - but perhaps UK Jan/Feb 2021.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    School meals are about £2.50 per child per day, which is £500 or so over a school year. You could get some more economy of scale by feeding everyone (... eventually, there'd be hefty costs in scaling up kitchen capacity to start with).
    The minimum funding per primary pupil in England is only £4000 (though it's higher in needier and/or more expensive areas).
    There is also the one off cost of new / expanded kitchen facilities that will be required.

    If I remember correctly when Labour proposed this for the 2017 GE, I think the cost was estimated at about ~£1bn extra a year for just primary school kids to have lunch. This isn't for everybody to have breakfast club or after school food.
    Not sure about requiring expanded facilities - the idea is simply to stop parents paying for the school meals that they get already.

    Now, if you are talking about adding breakfast (which some have suggested).....
    You offer something for free, more people will want it. Why give your kid a packed lunch, when school are going to feed them.

    If you start to do any googling, the likes of the IFS consistently say you will need to expand facilities and it will cost several £100 million.
    The problem is that packed lunches tend to be unhealthy shit food. A sandwich, crisps etc. Maybe a piece of fruit. Not necessarily what you'd have at home if having lunch at home fresh from a kitchen, but the kids aren't ay home.

    If the child is at home preparing a healthy lunch is different to a packed lunch.

    The schools have facilities and offer fresh meals already. The only difference is whether it's paid for as an extra or not. But since the school is acting in loco parentis it isn't unreasonable for a healthy meal to be part of the responsibilities at the time.
    The biggest difference between private and state schools, IMHO, is that virtually no-one in private schools has a packaged lunch because the quality of school meals is so much better.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Second time today for that line from you.....
    It is a leitmotif when discussing BritNat affairs.
    No 55%
    Yes 45%
    Increasing the Yes vote from 28% to 45% is hardly nemesis.

    Is there an echo in here?
    The very first opinion poll after the 2011 referendum was 37% Yes, 45% No - which strip out Don't Knows becomes 45% Yes, 55% No.

    3 years and all that campaigning later and it swung from 45/55 to . . . 45/55.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    No. We are an alpha nation. We conquered the world FFS. We should be winning these things as regularly as Italy. Ffs we invented the sport

    We win everything else. This is our hoodoo
    The Scots invented football, not the English.
    Any evidence to back that up

    https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Association-Football-or-Soccer/ says it was a Yorkshireman in London

    Penalties are a County Armagh invention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McCrum
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    Nation of bottlers. You voted to live under our jackboot. Time to deal with it.
    Big dancing outside PC World with (very) wee man exposed to the world energy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Second time today for that line from you.....
    It is a leitmotif when discussing BritNat affairs.
    Perhaps independence would just be the beginning of a British risorgimento. After hubris comes nemesis.
    We’ll be on ‘il sorpasso’ next.

    (Too soon?)
    Enjoying the English jackboot? That's what Scotland's destiny is for the rest of it's sad existence. You had your chance and you bottled it. 55% of your fellow countrymen decided that the English jackboot was better than being an independent nation under Salmond and Sturgeon. Scotland is a conquered nation, you sold yourselves to the English 300 years ago and when offered the chance to be free you rejected it like pathetic, scared children.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    Nation of bottlers. You voted to live under our jackboot. Time to deal with it.
    Please, sir, I want some more.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    MaxPB said:

    The latest NHS neurosis is that Javid doesn't talk about it as some revered organisation or in terms of "our" NHS I'm told. He's being called in by senior NHS bods for reeducation on this subject. Oddly the new health secretary believes that the NHS is there to serve the people, not the other way around.

    Good for him. The biggest problem with the NHS is that , like other types of nationalised industry, its main purpose is to serve not patients but those that work within it. Its priorities are senior doctors, less senior doctors, hospital managers, nurses, other hospital staff, and right at the bottom of the list waits the very patient patient, aka The Supplicant.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    Nation of bottlers. You voted to live under our jackboot. Time to deal with it.
    Big dancing outside PC World with (very) wee man exposed to the world energy.
    You looking in a mirror then? Your whole country is small dick energy. You voted to live under English oppression. Bottlers and cowards.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    I think they should be immensely proud of their silver medals. Shocking that the spoilt brats immediately removed them from their necks within seconds of being awarded them. Very rude.
    It is the same at the Olympics. Silver means loser, whereas bronze often means you've outperformed yourself.
    Any silver medalist disgracing themselves, their team and their country the way those brats did last night should have the award removed from the record. Give the bronze medalists silver medals and the fourth placed athletes bronze. That’ll soon stop the churlishness.
    No amount of carping from Scottish Nationalists will change the fact that Scotland scraped the qualifiers, got knocked out in the group stage and are currently 44th in the world rankings. You should probably stay off the subject of football.
    Feel the love.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
    There's a reason why free school meals exist. Some parents aren't as attentive as others. They'd rather spend what little money they have on themselves rather than on their children.

    There is quite a lot of research out of the US that free school meals programs result in better health and academic outcomes for poorer kids.

    The only question, really, is how important to you is improving the life chances of the disadvantaged?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    No. We are an alpha nation. We conquered the world FFS. We should be winning these things as regularly as Italy. Ffs we invented the sport

    We win everything else. This is our hoodoo
    The Scots invented football, not the English.
    There are lots of claims, though that has to be the silliest. The game was codified on Parker's Piece, Cambridge. I am not aware of any historical account of bagpipes or tartan skirts in evidence.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    Lol, someone liked it!




  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    Heading back to racism - I see someone has started given other racists advice

    image

    The bit that he won't get is that twitter sends an email everytime someone logs into your account and I bet the person being investigated doesn't have any of those emails.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    Nation of bottlers. You voted to live under our jackboot. Time to deal with it.
    Big dancing outside PC World with (very) wee man exposed to the world energy.
    You looking in a mirror then? Your whole country is small dick energy. You voted to live under English oppression. Bottlers and cowards.
    Ragin'!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    No. We are an alpha nation. We conquered the world FFS. We should be winning these things as regularly as Italy. Ffs we invented the sport

    We win everything else. This is our hoodoo
    The Scots invented football, not the English.
    There are lots of claims, though that has to be the silliest. The game was codified on Parker's Piece, Cambridge. I am not aware of any historical account of bagpipes or tartan skirts in evidence.
    If you believe this book, it was Trinity College, Cambridge what dunnit.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Meanwhile, depressing news on the vaccination front from the US, where partisan politics are now the biggest part of the problem:

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-boosting-vaccination-rates-499047

    On the upside, the US is once again acting as a control experiment, as Florida, South Dakota and Texas did with lockdown.

    Imagine, for example, that infection rates and hospitalisations do not explode in US states with low vaccination rates.

    That would be awkward
    Firstly, awkward for whom?

    Secondly, vaccination rates are not the only thing that matters.

    For example, schools across the US are on summer vacation, and have been for at least a month. That closes down the biggest vector of transmission.

    There are a dozen other factors that relate to how well CV19 spreads, above and beyond vaccination rates. If you live on a farm in Wyoming, and you see your family and the guy at the feed shop once a week, then you know what? The fact that you haven't gotten vaccinated probably doesn't affect your likelihood of infection that much.

    But if you live in Chicago in a house shared with a dozen others, work in a busy store, and have to take the L to work during rush hour, then yeah, I'd think whether you're vaccinated is going to make a big fucking difference.

    Come September, we're going to see what happens when schools return, *and* Delta is well seeded in the US. My gut is that there are going to be some small town areas that get quite badly hit. Not Northern Italy or Manhattan in March 2020 badly hit - but perhaps UK Jan/Feb 2021.
    I'm sorry, but if you are part of the UK's now extremely powerful and and largely unaccountable public health lobby, vaccination rates are indeed the only thing that matters.

    Vaccination rates are the main reason we delayed our freedom day by a month.

    Vaccination rates are the main reason I and others like me are going to be turned into second class citizens in our own country when passports are introduced in the autumn.

    And please do not trot out all the 'geography' bullsh*t at me again. Florida, Texas and many other republican states have big crowded cities.

    Like I say, America is a control experiment. Just as Florida destroyed the lockdown works arguments, so it may destroy the vaccinate or else argument.

    It may not of course. Let's see.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    No. We are an alpha nation. We conquered the world FFS. We should be winning these things as regularly as Italy. Ffs we invented the sport

    We win everything else. This is our hoodoo
    The Scots invented football, not the English.
    Any evidence to back that up

    https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Association-Football-or-Soccer/ says it was a Yorkshireman in London

    Penalties are a County Armagh invention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McCrum
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/football/48831909
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    Nation of bottlers. You voted to live under our jackboot. Time to deal with it.
    Big dancing outside PC World with (very) wee man exposed to the world energy.
    You looking in a mirror then? Your whole country is small dick energy. You voted to live under English oppression. Bottlers and cowards.
    Ragin'!
    Nothing you say will change the fact that you voted to a sad and pathetic existence under English rule. You were born in a conquered nation and you'll die in one. That's the life of a Scotsman, to serve the English.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    The overwhelming majority of British workers would not want to see the introduction of a four-day working week if it meant taking a cut to their pay.

    Eight out of 10 British employees would not favour accepting a reduction in working hours if it resulted in lower wages, according to research by cross-party thinktank, the Social Market Foundation (SMF), with only one in 10 employees willing to work less and earn less.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/12/four-day-week-not-if-it-means-a-pay-cut-say-british-workers
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006
    Roger said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    I think they should be immensely proud of their silver medals. Shocking that the spoilt brats immediately removed them from their necks within seconds of being awarded them. Very rude.
    Yes. It's as though they believe themselves too good to accept a medal lesser than a winners. Whatever they intended it read as arrogant which to a lot of watchers made them bad losers. Not attractive at all
    It's like the "Football's Coming Home" nonsense that gets wheeled out every tournament as soon as England wins a game.

    It needs to be binned. It's arrogant. it's embarrassing and the rest of Europe is just laughing and not in a good way.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Lol, someone liked it!




    A classic!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Lol, someone liked it!




    Very amusing. Now, where is that great footballing nation, Scotland in the world rankings? Not looked it up? 44th I believe last time I looked. I wonder what Scots would give to get to be second in anything other than curling and they can't even win at that! Oh I did forget tossing. You are pretty world class in that.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    No. We are an alpha nation. We conquered the world FFS. We should be winning these things as regularly as Italy. Ffs we invented the sport

    We win everything else. This is our hoodoo
    The Scots invented football, not the English.
    Any evidence to back that up

    https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Association-Football-or-Soccer/ says it was a Yorkshireman in London

    Penalties are a County Armagh invention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McCrum
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/football/48831909
    A mere 500 years when even my link says a variation was played in London in 1349...
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,751

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Oh! What is the SNP nemesis? Will it ultimately be the man who was once the hero of all Nats, you know the one...he that was described as a "bully and sex pest" by his own QC? Whatsisname, the little fat arsehole who looks like a toad?

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Oh! What is the SNP nemesis? Will it ultimately be the man who was once the hero of all Nats, you know the one...he that was described as a "bully and sex pest" by his own QC? Whatsisname, the little fat arsehole who looks like a toad?

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Oh! What is the SNP nemesis? Will it ultimately be the man who was once the hero of all Nats, you know the one...he that was described as a "bully and sex pest" by his own QC? Whatsisname, the little fat arsehole who looks like a toad?
    Salmond is clearly a very unpleasant person but, in his day, was an extremely formidable politician who really ruled the roost up here. Much of the momentum that has led to the current 50/50 split on Indy is down to the difference he, personally, made. It's no wonder he thought he deserved a certain amount of slack from his successor.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    Nation of bottlers. You voted to live under our jackboot. Time to deal with it.
    Big dancing outside PC World with (very) wee man exposed to the world energy.
    You looking in a mirror then? Your whole country is small dick energy. You voted to live under English oppression. Bottlers and cowards.
    Ragin'!
    Nothing you say will change the fact that you voted to a sad and pathetic existence under English rule. You were born in a conquered nation and you'll die in one. That's the life of a Scotsman, to serve the English.
    Still ragin'!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited July 2021
    As a British, black Londoner, son of Windrush generation, working-class parents, I – like so many others with different stories – find it has never been easier to support an England team. It’s southern, it’s northern, it’s black, it’s white, it is of mixed heritage, it’s young, it’s experienced, I’m guessing it’s multi-denominational.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/12/england-lost-southgate-diversity-team

    I find this a slightly weird take....the way he is going on, it is like England have never had black and mix raced players in the team or a mix of players from around the country.

    Seems a bit insulting to the genius of John Barnes, the tenacious tiger like midfield play of Ince, the world class left back that was Ashley Cole at his prime, Rio Ferdinard at his best was probably the best centre back in the world. All the great geordie players, Gerard and all the great scousers, even Graham Le Saux from them funny islands that sound a bit foreign...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited July 2021
    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Second time today for that line from you.....
    It is a leitmotif when discussing BritNat affairs.
    Perhaps independence would just be the beginning of a British risorgimento. After hubris comes nemesis.
    We’ll be on ‘il sorpasso’ next.

    (Too soon?)
    Enjoying the English jackboot? That's what Scotland's destiny is for the rest of it's sad existence. You had your chance and you bottled it. 55% of your fellow countrymen decided that the English jackboot was better than being an independent nation under Salmond and Sturgeon. Scotland is a conquered nation, you sold yourselves to the English 300 years ago and when offered the chance to be free you rejected it like pathetic, scared children.
    Take a big breath, cuddle a baby, smell a flower, snog your wife, give somebody a compliment, tickle a dog behind the ears, do a selfless deed. The world really is a wonderful place, enjoy your time here.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    eek said:

    Heading back to racism - I see someone has started given other racists advice

    image

    The bit that he won't get is that twitter sends an email everytime someone logs into your account and I bet the person being investigated doesn't have any of those emails.

    For the record, Matt Singh of Number Cruncher points out that Southgate himself in his press conference said that most (but not all) of the racist online abuse of England's players came from overseas trolls. This was ascertained by the FA's social media experts.

    This point was entirely glossed over by the British media, the twitterati, the Labour Party and the race industry.

    Not to mention a few posters on here earlier today.

    Fake news, as somebody once said.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Lol, someone liked it!




    Very amusing. Now, where is that great footballing nation, Scotland in the world rankings? Not looked it up? 44th I believe last time I looked. I wonder what Scots would give to get to be second in anything other than curling and they can't even win at that! Oh I did forget tossing. You are pretty world class in that.
    Scots were very, very happy last night. Being in 44th place is a wonderful feeling.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,191

    As a British, black Londoner, son of Windrush generation, working-class parents, I – like so many others with different stories – find it has never been easier to support an England team. It’s southern, it’s northern, it’s black, it’s white, it is of mixed heritage, it’s young, it’s experienced, I’m guessing it’s multi-denominational.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/12/england-lost-southgate-diversity-team

    I find this a slightly weird take....the way he is going on, it is like England have never had black and mix raced players in the team. Seems a bit insulting to the genius of John Barnes, the tenacious tiger like midfield play of Ince, the world class left back that was Ashley Cole at his prime, Rio Ferdinard at his best was probably the best centre back in the world, etc etc etc.

    I'm a very big headed individual, so can identify with Maguire tbh
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,297
    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    Memories from one of these Twatter threads.


    I've been thinking about how you might rationalise this. I think the reasoning must be that not only are the Tories evil and wicked and self destructive (in wanting to kill off their core vote) but they are also staggeringly incompetent and it is only that incompetence that has stopped the NHS being destroyed by them until now.

    Whether this is a back handed compliment to Boris (who is surely not in the same league of competence as Maggie was, even on his best day) is probably best left for the advanced class to wrestle with.
    Come off it - in their heart of hearts, most Tory MPs want to privatize the NHS.
    They might not feel like they can get away with it, but they obviously want it to happen.

    And there's nothing morally wrong with taking that position (there's quite a lot wrong with it on a technical level).

    Some of them wish that the NHS would charge patients (Boris Johnson), others would prefer that rather than being funded by taxation, it was all funded through private insurance/personal health accounts (John Redwood, Jeremy Hunt)...

    Others focus on the provider side -> many would much prefer that more health services/whole hospitals were delivered by for-profit organizations (Jeremy Hunt, Dominic Raab, Priti Patel, Liz Truss...) and probably a few in the Labour camp as well.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    Nation of bottlers. You voted to live under our jackboot. Time to deal with it.
    Big dancing outside PC World with (very) wee man exposed to the world energy.
    You looking in a mirror then? Your whole country is small dick energy. You voted to live under English oppression. Bottlers and cowards.
    Your mum is very proud of you.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,751

    Lol, someone liked it!




    Very amusing. Now, where is that great footballing nation, Scotland in the world rankings? Not looked it up? 44th I believe last time I looked. I wonder what Scots would give to get to be second in anything other than curling and they can't even win at that! Oh I did forget tossing. You are pretty world class in that.
    Scots were very, very happy last night. Being in 44th place is a wonderful feeling.
    Sad fact is that both England and Scotland seem to underperform at fitba. Maybe they have something in common?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    eek said:

    Heading back to racism - I see someone has started given other racists advice

    image

    The bit that he won't get is that twitter sends an email everytime someone logs into your account and I bet the person being investigated doesn't have any of those emails.

    For the record, Matt Singh of Number Cruncher points out that Southgate himself in his press conference said that most (but not all) of the racist online abuse of England's players came from overseas trolls. This was ascertained by the FA's social media experts.

    This point was entirely glossed over by the British media, the twitterati, the Labour Party and the race industry.

    Not to mention a few posters on here earlier today.

    Fake news, as somebody once said.
    As you say most but not all. And this person is definitely in the UK (and seemingly not bright enough to understand that

    1) it's very unlikely his account was hacked and
    2) twitter has a lot of log information regarding account access and even sends emails when a new device logs into a twitter account.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    I think they should be immensely proud of their silver medals. Shocking that the spoilt brats immediately removed them from their necks within seconds of being awarded them. Very rude.
    It is the same at the Olympics. Silver means loser, whereas bronze often means you've outperformed yourself.
    Any silver medalist disgracing themselves, their team and their country the way those brats did last night should have the award removed from the record. Give the bronze medalists silver medals and the fourth placed athletes bronze. That’ll soon stop the churlishness.
    No amount of carping from Scottish Nationalists will change the fact that Scotland scraped the qualifiers, got knocked out in the group stage and are currently 44th in the world rankings. You should probably stay off the subject of football.
    Feel the love.
    It would be helpful if the hate filled crypto-racists that believe in Scottish exceptionalism did so. Be less angry. The woes of your world were not created by "the English" any more than football was invented in Scotland.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    I think they should be immensely proud of their silver medals. Shocking that the spoilt brats immediately removed them from their necks within seconds of being awarded them. Very rude.
    Yes. It's as though they believe themselves too good to accept a medal lesser than a winners. Whatever they intended it read as arrogant which to a lot of watchers made them bad losers. Not attractive at all
    It's like the "Football's Coming Home" nonsense that gets wheeled out every tournament as soon as England wins a game.

    It needs to be binned. It's arrogant. it's embarrassing and the rest of Europe is just laughing and not in a good way.
    Glad someone noticed.

    Football’s Coming to Rome.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Second time today for that line from you.....
    It is a leitmotif when discussing BritNat affairs.
    Perhaps independence would just be the beginning of a British risorgimento. After hubris comes nemesis.
    We’ll be on ‘il sorpasso’ next.

    (Too soon?)
    Enjoying the English jackboot? That's what Scotland's destiny is for the rest of it's sad existence. You had your chance and you bottled it. 55% of your fellow countrymen decided that the English jackboot was better than being an independent nation under Salmond and Sturgeon. Scotland is a conquered nation, you sold yourselves to the English 300 years ago and when offered the chance to be free you rejected it like pathetic, scared children.
    Take a big breath, cuddle a baby, smell a flower, snog your wife, give somebody a compliment, tickle a dog behind the ears, do a selfless deed. The world really is a wonderful place, enjoy your time here.
    I think he is just taking the piss. You, on the other hand, as a nationalist ( a disgusting creed built on hatred), might try and take your own advice.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited July 2021
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    No. We are an alpha nation. We conquered the world FFS. We should be winning these things as regularly as Italy. Ffs we invented the sport

    We win everything else. This is our hoodoo
    The Scots invented football, not the English.
    Any evidence to back that up

    https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Association-Football-or-Soccer/ says it was a Yorkshireman in London

    Penalties are a County Armagh invention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McCrum
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/football/48831909
    A mere 500 years when even my link says a variation was played in London in 1349...
    … at the Scottish embassy.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Lol, someone liked it!




    Very amusing. Now, where is that great footballing nation, Scotland in the world rankings? Not looked it up? 44th I believe last time I looked. I wonder what Scots would give to get to be second in anything other than curling and they can't even win at that! Oh I did forget tossing. You are pretty world class in that.
    Scots were very, very happy last night. Being in 44th place is a wonderful feeling.
    I guess so, it is probably as high as Scotland will ever get.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Oh! What is the SNP nemesis? Will it ultimately be the man who was once the hero of all Nats, you know the one...he that was described as a "bully and sex pest" by his own QC? Whatsisname, the little fat arsehole who looks like a toad?

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Oh! What is the SNP nemesis? Will it ultimately be the man who was once the hero of all Nats, you know the one...he that was described as a "bully and sex pest" by his own QC? Whatsisname, the little fat arsehole who looks like a toad?

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Oh! What is the SNP nemesis? Will it ultimately be the man who was once the hero of all Nats, you know the one...he that was described as a "bully and sex pest" by his own QC? Whatsisname, the little fat arsehole who looks like a toad?
    Salmond is clearly a very unpleasant person but, in his day, was an extremely formidable politician who really ruled the roost up here. Much of the momentum that has led to the current 50/50 split on Indy is down to the difference he, personally, made. It's no wonder he thought he deserved a certain amount of slack from his successor.
    He is the personification of Scottish nationalism. Enough said really.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
    There's a reason why free school meals exist. Some parents aren't as attentive as others. They'd rather spend what little money they have on themselves rather than on their children.

    There is quite a lot of research out of the US that free school meals programs result in better health and academic outcomes for poorer kids.

    The only question, really, is how important to you is improving the life chances of the disadvantaged?
    You missed the argument - he wanted free school meals for everyone, not just the poor. Then you add in breakfast, tea and supper and we're in Aldous Huxley territory.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,526
    edited July 2021

    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
    The issue is not the parents -some are responsible and far-sighted (though we can all have bad luck), others not so much. If it was about helping the parents, then your argument could apply. But the kids don't choose whether to be born into responsible homes, do they? And it's arguably in the national interest, not just their own, that they grow up fit and healthy.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,270
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    No. We are an alpha nation. We conquered the world FFS. We should be winning these things as regularly as Italy. Ffs we invented the sport

    We win everything else. This is our hoodoo
    The Scots invented football, not the English.
    Any evidence to back that up

    https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Association-Football-or-Soccer/ says it was a Yorkshireman in London

    Penalties are a County Armagh invention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McCrum
    https://www.bbc.com/sport/av/football/48831909
    A mere 500 years when even my link says a variation was played in London in 1349...
    Nicholas de Farndone banned football in London in 1314, IIRC. Which rather suggests it must have been played there from an earlier time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829
    edited July 2021
    I spent the day watching Loki on D+ with my wife. Really enjoyable, can't wait for the final episode on Wednesday. Good use of our day off.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    A reminded to our friends north of the border. Croatia has a smaller population than Scotland. They've played in a World Cup Final.

    England have underachieved over the years. But it's nothing compared with Scotland. You were only in this tournament because UEFA gerrymandered the qualification process.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,431
    rkrkrk said:

    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    Memories from one of these Twatter threads.


    I've been thinking about how you might rationalise this. I think the reasoning must be that not only are the Tories evil and wicked and self destructive (in wanting to kill off their core vote) but they are also staggeringly incompetent and it is only that incompetence that has stopped the NHS being destroyed by them until now.

    Whether this is a back handed compliment to Boris (who is surely not in the same league of competence as Maggie was, even on his best day) is probably best left for the advanced class to wrestle with.
    Come off it - in their heart of hearts, most Tory MPs want to privatize the NHS.
    They might not feel like they can get away with it, but they obviously want it to happen.

    And there's nothing morally wrong with taking that position (there's quite a lot wrong with it on a technical level).

    Some of them wish that the NHS would charge patients (Boris Johnson), others would prefer that rather than being funded by taxation, it was all funded through private insurance/personal health accounts (John Redwood, Jeremy Hunt)...

    Others focus on the provider side -> many would much prefer that more health services/whole hospitals were delivered by for-profit organizations (Jeremy Hunt, Dominic Raab, Priti Patel, Liz Truss...) and probably a few in the Labour camp as well.
    Outside hospitals NHS care is delivered by for-profit organisations, and always has been ; GP practices, pharmacy companies, dental practices etc.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Lol, someone liked it!




    Very amusing. Now, where is that great footballing nation, Scotland in the world rankings? Not looked it up? 44th I believe last time I looked. I wonder what Scots would give to get to be second in anything other than curling and they can't even win at that! Oh I did forget tossing. You are pretty world class in that.
    Scots were very, very happy last night. Being in 44th place is a wonderful feeling.
    Sad fact is that both England and Scotland seem to underperform at fitba. Maybe they have something in common?
    Norway is in 42nd place, and Ireland 47th. Maybe we have something in common?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,969
    Nightclubs, pubs and sports events and restaurants will be encouraged by the government to use Covid passports as a condition of entry from July 19th Javid tells the Commons
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1414597603191308295?s=20
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103

    glw said:

    @HugoGye
    This is surely true, the Tories know the best path to re-election would be destroying the NHS and killing elderly voters.


    https://twitter.com/HugoGye/status/1414545579196231684
    image

    It shows that no matter how eminent you may be, you can also be a total moron.
    I have met a few novelists. I think being a moron is a requirement. They live in a sad fantasy world where they can play God (particularly in Pullman's case) with their creation. If they manage to get a publisher and a modicum of success they begin to feel they are god, even though everyone else knows they are a moron.

    The difference between novelists and God is that God doesn't think he is a novelist.
    To be fair, God *has* had multiple best sellers - topping the chats over millennia.
    He had a practical near monopoly in some places.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    I think they should be immensely proud of their silver medals. Shocking that the spoilt brats immediately removed them from their necks within seconds of being awarded them. Very rude.
    It is the same at the Olympics. Silver means loser, whereas bronze often means you've outperformed yourself.
    Any silver medalist disgracing themselves, their team and their country the way those brats did last night should have the award removed from the record. Give the bronze medalists silver medals and the fourth placed athletes bronze. That’ll soon stop the churlishness.
    No amount of carping from Scottish Nationalists will change the fact that Scotland scraped the qualifiers, got knocked out in the group stage and are currently 44th in the world rankings. You should probably stay off the subject of football.
    Feel the love.
    It would be helpful if the hate filled crypto-racists that believe in Scottish exceptionalism did so. Be less angry. The woes of your world were not created by "the English" any more than football was invented in Scotland.
    Yes, you’re right, I’m really ragin.

    Always a pleasure to read your insightful, constructive posts. I wish I could be calm and clever like you.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    HYUFD said:

    Nightclubs, pubs and sports events and restaurants will be encouraged by the government to use Covid passports as a condition of entry from July 19th Javid tells the Commons
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1414597603191308295?s=20

    Most/virtually all of these venues won't touch this with a bargepole!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    Opinium Scottish sub-sample:
    SNP 57%
    Con 28%
    Lab 9%
    Grn 3%
    LD 2%

    BJ approval - 38

    Thinking back a couple of decades, if you had ever told me that the Conservatives would thrice outpoll Labour in Scotland, even in a small subsample ...
    And the Lib-Lab pact, which once had unchallenged hegemony, now commands about 10% of the vote. That’s the thanks they get for all their decades of hard work leading to the Claim of Right for Scotland, the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scotland Act. And they thought they were being so clever…
    In most of Scotland the Tories are the main Unionist party and opponent of the SNP that is why, however Unionists are also canny enough to vote tactically to beat the Nationalists.

    Hence Unionist tactical voting for Labour in Edinburgh Southern and Dumbarton and for the LDs in Edinburgh Western as well as tactical voting for the Tories in Aberdeenshire West, Eastwood and Dumfriesshire proved pivotal in preventing the SNP getting a majority at Holyrood in May
    Why do you care if the SNP got a majority or not? You’re never going to allow the Untermenschen a referendum irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
    No, we’re really not, for at least another decade. And what will you do about it?
    After hubris comes nemesis.
    Second time today for that line from you.....
    It is a leitmotif when discussing BritNat affairs.
    Perhaps independence would just be the beginning of a British risorgimento. After hubris comes nemesis.
    We’ll be on ‘il sorpasso’ next.

    (Too soon?)
    Enjoying the English jackboot? That's what Scotland's destiny is for the rest of it's sad existence. You had your chance and you bottled it. 55% of your fellow countrymen decided that the English jackboot was better than being an independent nation under Salmond and Sturgeon. Scotland is a conquered nation, you sold yourselves to the English 300 years ago and when offered the chance to be free you rejected it like pathetic, scared children.
    Take a big breath, cuddle a baby, smell a flower, snog your wife, give somebody a compliment, tickle a dog behind the ears, do a selfless deed. The world really is a wonderful place, enjoy your time here.
    I think he is just taking the piss. You, on the other hand, as a nationalist ( a disgusting creed built on hatred), might try and take your own advice.
    You’re right one again. British nationalism, like yours, is honourable and upstanding. I’m just an inferior Untermenschen and I will henceforth cower in the mud where I belong.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    I think they should be immensely proud of their silver medals. Shocking that the spoilt brats immediately removed them from their necks within seconds of being awarded them. Very rude.
    Yes. It's as though they believe themselves too good to accept a medal lesser than a winners. Whatever they intended it read as arrogant which to a lot of watchers made them bad losers. Not attractive at all
    It's like the "Football's Coming Home" nonsense that gets wheeled out every tournament as soon as England wins a game.

    It needs to be binned. It's arrogant. it's embarrassing and the rest of Europe is just laughing and not in a good way.
    The whinging about that song as though anyone else cares about our songs is one of the most hilariously implausible and petty things I've ever read. They actually care? Come on.

    The only thing sillier than silly football culture is getting upset at that silly culture in a really serious way.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    Roger said:

    FF43 said:

    Is no-one in England happy with their team's success ?

    I think they should be immensely proud of their silver medals. Shocking that the spoilt brats immediately removed them from their necks within seconds of being awarded them. Very rude.
    Yes. It's as though they believe themselves too good to accept a medal lesser than a winners. Whatever they intended it read as arrogant which to a lot of watchers made them bad losers. Not attractive at all
    It's like the "Football's Coming Home" nonsense that gets wheeled out every tournament as soon as England wins a game.

    It needs to be binned. It's arrogant. it's embarrassing and the rest of Europe is just laughing and not in a good way.
    Its only arrogant if you are a pathetic self-hating twunt or xenophobe from overseas who has no sense of humour.

    With lyrics like "England's gonna throw it away" its the complete opposite of arrogance.
  • rkrkrk said:

    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    Memories from one of these Twatter threads.


    I've been thinking about how you might rationalise this. I think the reasoning must be that not only are the Tories evil and wicked and self destructive (in wanting to kill off their core vote) but they are also staggeringly incompetent and it is only that incompetence that has stopped the NHS being destroyed by them until now.

    Whether this is a back handed compliment to Boris (who is surely not in the same league of competence as Maggie was, even on his best day) is probably best left for the advanced class to wrestle with.
    Come off it - in their heart of hearts, most Tory MPs want to privatize the NHS.
    They might not feel like they can get away with it, but they obviously want it to happen.

    And there's nothing morally wrong with taking that position (there's quite a lot wrong with it on a technical level).

    Some of them wish that the NHS would charge patients (Boris Johnson), others would prefer that rather than being funded by taxation, it was all funded through private insurance/personal health accounts (John Redwood, Jeremy Hunt)...

    Others focus on the provider side -> many would much prefer that more health services/whole hospitals were delivered by for-profit organizations (Jeremy Hunt, Dominic Raab, Priti Patel, Liz Truss...) and probably a few in the Labour camp as well.
    I don't think the Tories want to privatise the NHS. I think they - and all governments in fact - do scratch their heads asking why countries that spend a lot less per head in Europe get better health outcomes than we do. Normally the market does result in more efficient delivery, but the NHS is too dominant and complex to transition to something else within an electoral cycle - so NOBODY wants to touch it. What is definitely clear is that we need a more resilient NHS - more Doctors and Nurses are required, but vested interests may not like that because more qualified people normally means that pay rates drop. It's bloody complex.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
    There's a reason why free school meals exist. Some parents aren't as attentive as others. They'd rather spend what little money they have on themselves rather than on their children.

    There is quite a lot of research out of the US that free school meals programs result in better health and academic outcomes for poorer kids.

    The only question, really, is how important to you is improving the life chances of the disadvantaged?
    You missed the argument - he wanted free school meals for everyone, not just the poor. Then you add in breakfast, tea and supper and we're in Aldous Huxley territory.
    Silly boy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited July 2021
    34471 cases, 6 deaths, no update for hospital admissions...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160
    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
    There's a reason why free school meals exist. Some parents aren't as attentive as others. They'd rather spend what little money they have on themselves rather than on their children.

    There is quite a lot of research out of the US that free school meals programs result in better health and academic outcomes for poorer kids.

    The only question, really, is how important to you is improving the life chances of the disadvantaged?
    You missed the argument - he wanted free school meals for everyone, not just the poor. Then you add in breakfast, tea and supper and we're in Aldous Huxley territory.
    I think there's a good argument for that too - both breakfast and for all.

    Firstly, free school meals come with a stigma attached. Do you not remember being at school? Getting a free school meal marked you out for derision as it marked your parents as poor. Kids would beg their (poor) parents to get shitty packed lunches rather than suffer from the stigma of being a free school means kid.

    Secondly, you know what... all the evidence is that free breakfasts boost academic and health outcomes more than lunch.

    Here's a simple solution. Let's pick two council areas with roughly similar demographics and academic outcomes. In one, let's take money away from teachers and sports facilities, and instead use that money to give food to kids at breakfast and lunch.

    And then let's compare the academic and health outcomes of the two council areas. Will the free school meals have been better at improving results than spending the money on teachers.

    I really don't know that answer to that question, by the way. But I do think the right way to answer it is with data, not with bringing up the spectre of Aldous Huxley.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370

    rkrkrk said:

    DavidL said:

    MattW said:

    Memories from one of these Twatter threads.


    I've been thinking about how you might rationalise this. I think the reasoning must be that not only are the Tories evil and wicked and self destructive (in wanting to kill off their core vote) but they are also staggeringly incompetent and it is only that incompetence that has stopped the NHS being destroyed by them until now.

    Whether this is a back handed compliment to Boris (who is surely not in the same league of competence as Maggie was, even on his best day) is probably best left for the advanced class to wrestle with.
    Come off it - in their heart of hearts, most Tory MPs want to privatize the NHS.
    They might not feel like they can get away with it, but they obviously want it to happen.

    And there's nothing morally wrong with taking that position (there's quite a lot wrong with it on a technical level).

    Some of them wish that the NHS would charge patients (Boris Johnson), others would prefer that rather than being funded by taxation, it was all funded through private insurance/personal health accounts (John Redwood, Jeremy Hunt)...

    Others focus on the provider side -> many would much prefer that more health services/whole hospitals were delivered by for-profit organizations (Jeremy Hunt, Dominic Raab, Priti Patel, Liz Truss...) and probably a few in the Labour camp as well.
    I don't think the Tories want to privatise the NHS. I think they - and all governments in fact - do scratch their heads asking why countries that spend a lot less per head in Europe get better health outcomes than we do. Normally the market does result in more efficient delivery, but the NHS is too dominant and complex to transition to something else within an electoral cycle - so NOBODY wants to touch it. What is definitely clear is that we need a more resilient NHS - more Doctors and Nurses are required, but vested interests may not like that because more qualified people normally means that pay rates drop. It's bloody complex.
    Which countries spend less and get better results?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
    There's a reason why free school meals exist. Some parents aren't as attentive as others. They'd rather spend what little money they have on themselves rather than on their children.

    There is quite a lot of research out of the US that free school meals programs result in better health and academic outcomes for poorer kids.

    The only question, really, is how important to you is improving the life chances of the disadvantaged?
    You missed the argument - he wanted free school meals for everyone, not just the poor. Then you add in breakfast, tea and supper and we're in Aldous Huxley territory.
    I normally agree with most of what you write but this is ridiculous.

    Firstly absolutely I agree that meals should apply to everyone, not just the poor. I am of the belief that nothing should be reserved for the poor, we should have welfare at whatever level we have it and then that's that. Anything else should either be universal or not given.

    Secondly why the heck would you "add in breakfast, tea and supper"?

    At lunchtime the school is acting in loco parentis, it isn't at breakfast or in the evening.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    34471 cases, 6 deaths, no update for hospital admissions...

    27,000 -> 34,000 week-over-week, I think. And today's total is only just above the seven day average. Rather encouraging, I think.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362

    Lol, someone liked it!




    Very amusing. Now, where is that great footballing nation, Scotland in the world rankings? Not looked it up? 44th I believe last time I looked. I wonder what Scots would give to get to be second in anything other than curling and they can't even win at that! Oh I did forget tossing. You are pretty world class in that.
    Scots were very, very happy last night. Being in 44th place is a wonderful feeling.
    If I was a neutral I think I'd have supported Italy for yesterday's match, due to the positive first impression they made at the start of the tournament.

    I do think there is something a little bit psychologically unhealthy about deriving enjoyment from other people's failure though. A bit neurotic.

    A bit of a cul-de-sac for national identity too.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    edited July 2021

    eek said:

    Heading back to racism - I see someone has started given other racists advice

    image

    The bit that he won't get is that twitter sends an email everytime someone logs into your account and I bet the person being investigated doesn't have any of those emails.

    For the record, Matt Singh of Number Cruncher points out that Southgate himself in his press conference said that most (but not all) of the racist online abuse of England's players came from overseas trolls. Thrris was ascertained by the FA's social media This point was entirely glossed over by the British media, the twitterati, the Labour Party and the race industry.

    Not to mention a few posters on here earlier today.

    Fake news, as somebody once said.
    "Social media experts?" Must be right. Gotta trust them experts. It's odd that the stands are verifiably packed with flesh and blood racists though, or are they bots from abroad too? Like Blade Runner?

    ETA and the Rashford mural defacers, also from overseas? And BTW what the fuck does "Take pride in knowing that your struggle will play the biggest role in your purpose" mean anyway?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited July 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    34471 cases, 6 deaths, no update for hospital admissions...

    27,000 -> 34,000 week-over-week, I think. And today's total is only just above the seven day average. Rather encouraging, I think.
    Its NW and NE that again in the purple...you don't win anything from Bully's prize board for this....you want to stay out of the purple and in the green, you get nothing in this game for two in a bed, other resigning from your government position if they aren't your husband / wife....
  • eekeek Posts: 28,370
    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
    There's a reason why free school meals exist. Some parents aren't as attentive as others. They'd rather spend what little money they have on themselves rather than on their children.

    There is quite a lot of research out of the US that free school meals programs result in better health and academic outcomes for poorer kids.

    The only question, really, is how important to you is improving the life chances of the disadvantaged?
    You missed the argument - he wanted free school meals for everyone, not just the poor. Then you add in breakfast, tea and supper and we're in Aldous Huxley territory.
    I think there's a good argument for that too - both breakfast and for all.

    Firstly, free school meals come with a stigma attached. Do you not remember being at school? Getting a free school meal marked you out for derision as it marked your parents as poor. Kids would beg their (poor) parents to get shitty packed lunches rather than suffer from the stigma of being a free school means kid.

    Secondly, you know what... all the evidence is that free breakfasts boost academic and health outcomes more than lunch.

    Here's a simple solution. Let's pick two council areas with roughly similar demographics and academic outcomes. In one, let's take money away from teachers and sports facilities, and instead use that money to give food to kids at breakfast and lunch.

    And then let's compare the academic and health outcomes of the two council areas. Will the free school meals have been better at improving results than spending the money on teachers.

    I really don't know that answer to that question, by the way. But I do think the right way to answer it is with data, not with bringing up the spectre of Aldous Huxley.
    How would you conduct that experiment? No council is willingly going to redirect money from teachers to other school expenditure - the uproar would be immediate and massive.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,900
    edited July 2021
    Covid – is no-one watching The Saj in the Commons?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    Heading back to racism - I see someone has started given other racists advice

    image

    The bit that he won't get is that twitter sends an email everytime someone logs into your account and I bet the person being investigated doesn't have any of those emails.

    For the record, Matt Singh of Number Cruncher points out that Southgate himself in his press conference said that most (but not all) of the racist online abuse of England's players came from overseas trolls. Thrris was ascertained by the FA's social media experts.

    This point was entirely glossed over by the British media, the twitterati, the Labour Party and the race industry.

    Not to mention a few posters on here earlier today.

    Fake news, as somebody once said.
    "Social media experts?" Must be right. Gotta trust them experts. It's odd that the stands are verifiably packed with flesh and blood racists though, or are they bots from abroad too? Like Blade Runner?
    What flesh and blood racists in the stands?

    Stupid partisan idiots booing the opposing teams anthem isn't racism, its just unsporting, rude and stupid.

    Were people making monkey gestures at black players, or something similar from the stands? That's absolutely unacceptable if so, but I've not seen anything like that.
  • BIblical floodings in London, it looks like.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    Heading back to racism - I see someone has started given other racists advice

    image

    The bit that he won't get is that twitter sends an email everytime someone logs into your account and I bet the person being investigated doesn't have any of those emails.

    For the record, Matt Singh of Number Cruncher points out that Southgate himself in his press conference said that most (but not all) of the racist online abuse of England's players came from overseas trolls. Thrris was ascertained by the FA's social media experts.

    This point was entirely glossed over by the British media, the twitterati, the Labour Party and the race industry.

    Not to mention a few posters on here earlier today.

    Fake news, as somebody once said.
    "Social media experts?" Must be right. Gotta trust them experts. It's odd that the stands are verifiably packed with flesh and blood racists though, or are they bots from abroad too? Like Blade Runner?
    Sorry are you criticising me or Gareth Southgate here....??

    Why would Southgate himself state most of the abuse is coming from outside the UK, if he did not trust the people who were telling him that..........?

    Not that you actually read half of what is actually written, here, or what is said by the people concerned, of course.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    BIblical floodings in London, it looks like.

    And in the Northwest too.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,360
    rcs1000 said:

    34471 cases, 6 deaths, no update for hospital admissions...

    27,000 -> 34,000 week-over-week, I think. And today's total is only just above the seven day average. Rather encouraging, I think.
    Hospital admissions for England which are updated more frequently look to be falling back now.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,839
    edited July 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    34471 cases, 6 deaths, no update for hospital admissions...

    27,000 -> 34,000 week-over-week, I think. And today's total is only just above the seven day average. Rather encouraging, I think.
    I think that the idea that we are going to have a further 2 doublings from here as was being suggested by some scientists at the end of last week looks seriously pessimistic. If this is not the peak its damn near it, days away at the most.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829
    rcs1000 said:

    34471 cases, 6 deaths, no update for hospital admissions...

    27,000 -> 34,000 week-over-week, I think. And today's total is only just above the seven day average. Rather encouraging, I think.
    Next week we've got the end of the tournament to figure in for England and the following week it's the end of schools. The infection rate could actually drop pretty fast in the next 10-12 days.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,648
    Germany's vaccination rate has noticeably slowed down and it looks like it will plateau in the 60-65% range.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020

    Germany's vaccination rate has noticeably slowed down and it looks like it will plateau in the 60-65% range.

    All on foreign holidays?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    From my personal experience, I'm surprised it is so low.
    Absolutely everybody* I know is succumbing to it.

    * Not literally.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,160

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Meanwhile, depressing news on the vaccination front from the US, where partisan politics are now the biggest part of the problem:

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-boosting-vaccination-rates-499047

    On the upside, the US is once again acting as a control experiment, as Florida, South Dakota and Texas did with lockdown.

    Imagine, for example, that infection rates and hospitalisations do not explode in US states with low vaccination rates.

    That would be awkward
    Firstly, awkward for whom?

    Secondly, vaccination rates are not the only thing that matters.

    For example, schools across the US are on summer vacation, and have been for at least a month. That closes down the biggest vector of transmission.

    There are a dozen other factors that relate to how well CV19 spreads, above and beyond vaccination rates. If you live on a farm in Wyoming, and you see your family and the guy at the feed shop once a week, then you know what? The fact that you haven't gotten vaccinated probably doesn't affect your likelihood of infection that much.

    But if you live in Chicago in a house shared with a dozen others, work in a busy store, and have to take the L to work during rush hour, then yeah, I'd think whether you're vaccinated is going to make a big fucking difference.

    Come September, we're going to see what happens when schools return, *and* Delta is well seeded in the US. My gut is that there are going to be some small town areas that get quite badly hit. Not Northern Italy or Manhattan in March 2020 badly hit - but perhaps UK Jan/Feb 2021.
    I'm sorry, but if you are part of the UK's now extremely powerful and and largely unaccountable public health lobby, vaccination rates are indeed the only thing that matters.

    Vaccination rates are the main reason we delayed our freedom day by a month.

    Vaccination rates are the main reason I and others like me are going to be turned into second class citizens in our own country when passports are introduced in the autumn.

    And please do not trot out all the 'geography' bullsh*t at me again. Florida, Texas and many other republican states have big crowded cities.

    Like I say, America is a control experiment. Just as Florida destroyed the lockdown works arguments, so it may destroy the vaccinate or else argument.

    It may not of course. Let's see.
    In Florida, as we've previously discussed, the Governor devolved to local municipalities most Covid controls. We both agreed this was the right approach.

    And now you're claiming that Florida didn't have controls in big cities?

    Not only that, but you're being either deliberating misleading or wilfully ignorant. Do you really think that the situation in Houston and New York are the same. Do you know how many people take the Houston subway system each day? It's around 55,000 (pre-pandemic). Do you know what the number was for New York? 6 million. That's ooohhhh... a bit of a difference. Do you know how many people in Dallas or Houston live in low income high rise apartments? Virtually none. Do you really think that population density and habits have no impact on the spread of a viral infection of the upper respiratory tract? I mean, really?
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    edited July 2021
    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-gcse-and-a-level-students-could-be-told-what-is-on-their-exam-papers-in-advance-12354383

    Why not just tell them the answers too?

    Kids have a world of information at their fingertips which was not available a generation ago. Honestly I don't think I would have lost much by having a teacher teach using Zoom than face to face. The Covid exam generation are going to have people massively questioning the value of their grades.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    Heading back to racism - I see someone has started given other racists advice

    image

    The bit that he won't get is that twitter sends an email everytime someone logs into your account and I bet the person being investigated doesn't have any of those emails.

    For the record, Matt Singh of Number Cruncher points out that Southgate himself in his press conference said that most (but not all) of the racist online abuse of England's players came from overseas trolls. Thrris was ascertained by the FA's social media experts.

    This point was entirely glossed over by the British media, the twitterati, the Labour Party and the race industry.

    Not to mention a few posters on here earlier today.

    Fake news, as somebody once said.
    "Social media experts?" Must be right. Gotta trust them experts. It's odd that the stands are verifiably packed with flesh and blood racists though, or are they bots from abroad too? Like Blade Runner?
    Sorry are you criticising me or Gareth Southgate here....??

    Why would Southgate himself state most of the abuse is coming from outside the UK, if he did not trust the people who were telling him that..........?

    Not that you actually read half of what is actually written, here, or what is said by the people concerned, of course.
    Because like you he doesn't want to concede that English football supporters, Ther salt of the earth Lads who pay his wages via sky sports subs, are in the main a bunch of ape grunting banana emoji posting racist pigs. Just a very few bad apples, mostly overseas. Hilarious that his response to a charge of racism is "foreigners must be to blame, comme d'habitude."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,957
    edited July 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Nightclubs, pubs and sports events and restaurants will be encouraged by the government to use Covid passports as a condition of entry from July 19th Javid tells the Commons
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1414597603191308295?s=20

    Most/virtually all of these venues won't touch this with a bargepole!
    Absolutely. It's not just a question of putting a barcode by the door. If they are going to do it they will have to police it properly which will mean a significant cost the likes of which I'm guessing those establishments aren't in a position to incur right now.

    Edit: although I'm guessing this will settle back into being a barcode by the door.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,965
    edited July 2021

    Lol, someone liked it!




    Very amusing. Now, where is that great footballing nation, Scotland in the world rankings? Not looked it up? 44th I believe last time I looked. I wonder what Scots would give to get to be second in anything other than curling and they can't even win at that! Oh I did forget tossing. You are pretty world class in that.
    Scots were very, very happy last night. Being in 44th place is a wonderful feeling.
    If I was a neutral I think I'd have supported Italy for yesterday's match, due to the positive first impression they made at the start of the tournament.

    I do think there is something a little bit psychologically unhealthy about deriving enjoyment from other people's failure though. A bit neurotic.

    A bit of a cul-de-sac for national identity too.
    Would repetitively squeaking about a nation of bottlers born to serve the English and being 44th in the world rankings qualify to live in this neurotic cul-de-sac of national identity?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,876

    BIblical floodings in London, it looks like.

    Not in this part of London - the radar story is fascinating:

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    The storm developed over Sutton and Epsom and a new storm has developed over central and NW London. Here to the east, still dry.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    School meals are about £2.50 per child per day, which is £500 or so over a school year. You could get some more economy of scale by feeding everyone (... eventually, there'd be hefty costs in scaling up kitchen capacity to start with).
    The minimum funding per primary pupil in England is only £4000 (though it's higher in needier and/or more expensive areas).
    There is also the one off cost of new / expanded kitchen facilities that will be required.

    If I remember correctly when Labour proposed this for the 2017 GE, I think the cost was estimated at about ~£1bn extra a year for just primary school kids to have lunch. This isn't for everybody to have breakfast club or after school food.
    Not sure about requiring expanded facilities - the idea is simply to stop parents paying for the school meals that they get already.

    Now, if you are talking about adding breakfast (which some have suggested).....
    Most of the children at the school I teach at bring in packed lunches (as do almost all the staff).

    Each year we have a school Christmas lunch which about half of the pupils take part in: that normally takes about an hour and a half to serve with the current set up (and only works because they get very little choice as to what they eat).

    If we had to feed all of them (and if the food were free 90%+ would want it) then we would need a much bigger canteen and kitchen (easily £1 million just for that, based on a similar but smaller project a decade ago), plus a possible reorganisation of the school day to allow for staggered lunch times.

    There are better uses for the £500 a year per pupil it would cost, and that's assuming the cost didn't come out of the pre-existing budget.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,829

    Germany's vaccination rate has noticeably slowed down and it looks like it will plateau in the 60-65% range.

    Is that population or adults. If it's the latter then that's seriously worrying. We'll top out at 90% by the end of August for adults which is 70% of the population. If we do start with 12-17 year olds we could get to 75% of the population by the end of September. We'd be extremely close to herd immunity, even with delta at that point.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    stodge said:

    BIblical floodings in London, it looks like.

    Not in this part of London - the radar story is fascinating:

    https://www.netweather.tv/live-weather/radar

    The storm developed over Sutton and Epsom and a new storm has developed over central and NW London. Here to the east, still dry.
    It's odd. It's rare for there to be little wind meaning that the thunderstorm develops and then doesn't move. Thinking of going for a walk this evening. Might give it a miss just in case we get a storm here.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    i have never understood how this country gets into such a mess with school meals.

    The taxpayer rightly funds a free education until 18 including the huge expense of teachers, facilities , equipment, books ,IT etc yet for some reason stops short of funding a universal free meal during the school day . I mean why ? It cannot be but a very small fraction of the overall education cost so it is on the face of it extremely petty but also would solve the bullying some kids get fro having free meals and also give all kids a better diet.

    Really odd the position on school meals to me that we have had for years

    I've already answered that - some families are so dysfunctional that the children need to be fed, but not so dysfunctional that the children need to be taken into care (for that costs real money)..
    I think what state_go_away meant was - why not simply provide meals for free, for all pupils, in all state schools?
    Way too expensive and when it was trialled it didn't provide many benefits.
    is it that expensive ? If the government can fund everything else to do with a kids educuation it seems odd this is left out
    WTF is the point of having parents and families at all?
    wow - a bit aggressive ! i am sure parents are invented for kids to do more than prepare a packed lunch
    The idea is for them to raise a family with all the easy and not so easy stuff included. There is no compulsion to rear children if you lack the means to do so. You seem to forget that all this money has to be provided by someone. Taxpayers would generally like to keep some of thier earnings for themselves. Paying for other people's kids to be fed is not part of the deal in my book. Sorry if you find that aggressive. 33 years in the classroom taught me that most parents expect to provide for their children's needs even when sacrifices are needed to do so. Mine certainly were.
    Unfortunately such sensible talk as this post does not apply anymore. It is now the Governments responsibilty to feed all children , not the parents.
    There's a reason why free school meals exist. Some parents aren't as attentive as others. They'd rather spend what little money they have on themselves rather than on their children.

    There is quite a lot of research out of the US that free school meals programs result in better health and academic outcomes for poorer kids.

    The only question, really, is how important to you is improving the life chances of the disadvantaged?
    You missed the argument - he wanted free school meals for everyone, not just the poor. Then you add in breakfast, tea and supper and we're in Aldous Huxley territory.
    I think there's a good argument for that too - both breakfast and for all.

    Firstly, free school meals come with a stigma attached. Do you not remember being at school? Getting a free school meal marked you out for derision as it marked your parents as poor. Kids would beg their (poor) parents to get shitty packed lunches rather than suffer from the stigma of being a free school means kid.

    Secondly, you know what... all the evidence is that free breakfasts boost academic and health outcomes more than lunch.

    Here's a simple solution. Let's pick two council areas with roughly similar demographics and academic outcomes. In one, let's take money away from teachers and sports facilities, and instead use that money to give food to kids at breakfast and lunch.

    And then let's compare the academic and health outcomes of the two council areas. Will the free school meals have been better at improving results than spending the money on teachers.

    I really don't know that answer to that question, by the way. But I do think the right way to answer it is with data, not with bringing up the spectre of Aldous Huxley.
    No no no. Parents choose to have children. In doing so they must accept the responsibility to rear them. The great majority can afford to do so. Happy to help where there is genuine need - not happy to give breakfast to kids with affluent parents. Take some responsibility.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    Meanwhile, depressing news on the vaccination front from the US, where partisan politics are now the biggest part of the problem:

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-boosting-vaccination-rates-499047

    On the upside, the US is once again acting as a control experiment, as Florida, South Dakota and Texas did with lockdown.

    Imagine, for example, that infection rates and hospitalisations do not explode in US states with low vaccination rates.

    That would be awkward
    Firstly, awkward for whom?

    Secondly, vaccination rates are not the only thing that matters.

    For example, schools across the US are on summer vacation, and have been for at least a month. That closes down the biggest vector of transmission.

    There are a dozen other factors that relate to how well CV19 spreads, above and beyond vaccination rates. If you live on a farm in Wyoming, and you see your family and the guy at the feed shop once a week, then you know what? The fact that you haven't gotten vaccinated probably doesn't affect your likelihood of infection that much.

    But if you live in Chicago in a house shared with a dozen others, work in a busy store, and have to take the L to work during rush hour, then yeah, I'd think whether you're vaccinated is going to make a big fucking difference.

    Come September, we're going to see what happens when schools return, *and* Delta is well seeded in the US. My gut is that there are going to be some small town areas that get quite badly hit. Not Northern Italy or Manhattan in March 2020 badly hit - but perhaps UK Jan/Feb 2021.
    I'm sorry, but if you are part of the UK's now extremely powerful and and largely unaccountable public health lobby, vaccination rates are indeed the only thing that matters.

    Vaccination rates are the main reason we delayed our freedom day by a month.

    Vaccination rates are the main reason I and others like me are going to be turned into second class citizens in our own country when passports are introduced in the autumn.

    And please do not trot out all the 'geography' bullsh*t at me again. Florida, Texas and many other republican states have big crowded cities.

    Like I say, America is a control experiment. Just as Florida destroyed the lockdown works arguments, so it may destroy the vaccinate or else argument.

    It may not of course. Let's see.
    In Florida, as we've previously discussed, the Governor devolved to local municipalities most Covid controls. We both agreed this was the right approach.

    And now you're claiming that Florida didn't have controls in big cities?

    Not only that, but you're being either deliberating misleading or wilfully ignorant. Do you really think that the situation in Houston and New York are the same. Do you know how many people take the Houston subway system each day? It's around 55,000 (pre-pandemic). Do you know what the number was for New York? 6 million. That's ooohhhh... a bit of a difference. Do you know how many people in Dallas or Houston live in low income high rise apartments? Virtually none. Do you really think that population density and habits have no impact on the spread of a viral infection of the upper respiratory tract? I mean, really?
    Yes well there are demographic arguments and demographic arguments of course.

    One of the reasons 'experts' were so incensed by De Santis's policy over the winter was Florida's position as one of America's favorite retirement states. A lot of dry tinder there.

    But it didn't work out that way.

    So whilst you are of course correct about New York's subway system and Houston's that's not the entire equation, is it? Not by a long chalk.

    Notice I make no predictions about how low vaccination rates in certain states will work out. All I am saying is we may again learn things that contradict conventional wisdom.

    Conventional wisdom that was in my opinion very wrong about lockdowns.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,362

    Lol, someone liked it!




    Very amusing. Now, where is that great footballing nation, Scotland in the world rankings? Not looked it up? 44th I believe last time I looked. I wonder what Scots would give to get to be second in anything other than curling and they can't even win at that! Oh I did forget tossing. You are pretty world class in that.
    Scots were very, very happy last night. Being in 44th place is a wonderful feeling.
    If I was a neutral I think I'd have supported Italy for yesterday's match, due to the positive first impression they made at the start of the tournament.

    I do think there is something a little bit psychologically unhealthy about deriving enjoyment from other people's failure though. A bit neurotic.

    A bit of a cul-de-sac for national identity too.
    Would repetitively squeaking about a nation of bottlers born to serve the English and being 44th in the world rankings qualify to live in this neurotic cul-de-sac of national identity?
    I can only critique one set of misguided nationalist beliefs at a time, but any help you're willing to offer to the cause will be gratefully received.
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