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Inevitably the front pages are once again dominated by the football – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,203

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Is that even a question.
    Of course you do.
    Personally I would, in a heartbeat. Yet when racism / rioting gets exposed and people get the sack, there are always people saying that its a witch hunt...
    With due respect, this is straw-mannery.

    I doubt he’ll get many people defending his “right” to utter offensive racial slurs on the net.
    People have been loosing their jobs over such things since before HTTP was a thing.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021

    Times Radio
    @TimesRadio
    ·
    28m
    "We need to stop fixating on suppressing infection."

    Sunetra Gupta, professor of theoretical epidemiology at
    @UniofOxford
    , says the government needs to "let infection reach an equilibrium level and strenuously protect the vulnerable".

    @AasmahMir
    |
    @StigAbell
    |
    @SunetraGupta

    why the hell are they still having this discredited individual on...when i say discredited, i mean she is just lying now, still claiming herd immunity occurred last year...which is just demonstratable bollocks.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,231

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    "I want to take one!" isn't the same as being in any fit state to do so. We don't know how and why the list was finalised but had the game been won in open play it wouldn't matter. Anyone can miss a penalty.
    No. Choosing a 19 year old, who has never taken an important penalty before, to take the deciding and crucial penalty in a Euro final is just insanely bad management

    Southgate has got a lot right in this competition, and I salute him for that. But last night he got it horribly wrong, in multiple ways. He will no doubt soldier on, unfortunately
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    tlg86 said:

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    I'm not sure anyone would consider it woke to find racism unacceptable.
    @RochdalePioneers was being ironic shirley?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    "I want to take one!" isn't the same as being in any fit state to do so. We don't know how and why the list was finalised but had the game been won in open play it wouldn't matter. Anyone can miss a penalty.
    No. Choosing a 19 year old, who has never taken an important penalty before, to take the deciding and crucial penalty in a Euro final is just insanely bad management

    Southgate has got a lot right in this competition, and I salute him for that. But last night he got it horribly wrong, in multiple ways. He will no doubt soldier on, unfortunately
    If he didn't who would the alternative be? No better, that's for sure.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited July 2021

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Is that even a question.
    Of course you do.
    Personally I would, in a heartbeat. Yet when racism / rioting gets exposed and people get the sack, there are always people saying that its a witch hunt...
    With due respect, this is straw-mannery.

    I doubt he’ll get many people defending his “right” to utter offensive racial slurs on the net.
    People have been loosing their jobs over such things since before HTTP was a thing.
    Often (which is perhaps @RochdalePioneers’s point) there is an ambiguity over things which seem a little unfair on the tweetee.

    For example, saying “All Lives Matter” is a tiresome and pathetic argument, but it doesn’t really constitute anything apart from dimwittedness. I understand some have been sacked for saying that.

    This time though, it’s an open and shut case.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,169
    edited July 2021

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    "I want to take one!" isn't the same as being in any fit state to do so. We don't know how and why the list was finalised but had the game been won in open play it wouldn't matter. Anyone can miss a penalty.
    Presumably Kane was preordained 1st up - There's a video of Southgate going round telling players "you're third (Rashford)", "You're fourth (Sancho)", "You're fifth (Saka)".
    Saka isn't going to say no, it was a ridiculous responsibility to put on a nineteen year old's shoulders by Southgate - the fifth penalty, his most glaring error when Grealish was we now find out ready and willing to take a pen.

    Fifth penalties are HARD https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/kylian-mbappe/elfmetertore/spieler/342229
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,810

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Floater said:

    After hubris comes nemesis.

    Yawn
    Yawn

    I wish you wankers had the bottle to actually fuck off and leave the UK. Sadly you didn't and we're stuck with the stench of a dead country that can't find its own dick because it's fallen off.
    How can they be wankers AND have dicks that have fallen off? I’m assuming they aren’t transgender
    Admirable logic Charles.
    A very C19 attitude: that ladies don't, erm, ....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,402
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Rashford was absolubtely correct to be taking the 3rd penalty. He missed, it happens - it wasn't the wrong choice.

    Worth looking at his kick in the Europa League shootout:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN5Tls-TBaI

    Pretty much identical. What went wrong last night is he got his run up wrong and kicked the ball with his heel.
    That's a fair point.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,231
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    It isn’t. Twit
    I seem to remember riots along the Champs-Élysées when Paris won the 2018 world cup...
    Huge riots

    And I have described my own experience in St Tropez the night France beat Brazil 3-0, in the 98 WC final

    St Tropez! And they won. And still they rioted. Overturning cars
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,203

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Is that even a question.
    Of course you do.
    Personally I would, in a heartbeat. Yet when racism / rioting gets exposed and people get the sack, there are always people saying that its a witch hunt...
    With due respect, this is straw-mannery.

    I doubt he’ll get many people defending his “right” to utter offensive racial slurs on the net.
    People have been loosing their jobs over such things since before HTTP was a thing.
    Often (which is perhaps @RochdalePioneers’s point) there is an ambiguity over things which seem a little unfair on the tweetee.

    For example, saying “All Lives Matter” is a tiresome and pathetic argument, but it doesn’t really constitute anything apart from dimwittedness. I understand some have been sacked for saying that.

    This time though, it’s an open and shut case.
    People have been sacked for refusing to say "I believe X", where X is some company mandated position.

    General this happens in the US.

    I am quite sure Constable Savage gets 100% on his exam at the end of his equality course.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,895
    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Floater said:

    After hubris comes nemesis.

    Yawn
    Yawn

    I wish you wankers had the bottle to actually fuck off and leave the UK. Sadly you didn't and we're stuck with the stench of a dead country that can't find its own dick because it's fallen off.
    How can they be wankers AND have dicks that have fallen off? I’m assuming they aren’t transgender
    Admirable logic Charles.
    A very C19 attitude: that ladies don't, erm, ....
    Well exactly! If they didn't then how would Leon earn a living?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,810

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Floater said:

    After hubris comes nemesis.

    Yawn
    Yawn

    I wish you wankers had the bottle to actually fuck off and leave the UK. Sadly you didn't and we're stuck with the stench of a dead country that can't find its own dick because it's fallen off.
    How can they be wankers AND have dicks that have fallen off? I’m assuming they aren’t transgender
    Admirable logic Charles.
    A very C19 attitude: that ladies don't, erm, ....
    Well exactly! If they didn't then how would Leon earn a living?
    Gentlemen of a certain persuasion?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.

    Italy hooligan element has always been significant and now much bigger than everything normal in the UK.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Is that even a question.
    Of course you do.
    Personally I would, in a heartbeat. Yet when racism / rioting gets exposed and people get the sack, there are always people saying that its a witch hunt...
    With due respect, this is straw-mannery.

    I doubt he’ll get many people defending his “right” to utter offensive racial slurs on the net.
    People have been loosing their jobs over such things since before HTTP was a thing.
    Often (which is perhaps @RochdalePioneers’s point) there is an ambiguity over things which seem a little unfair on the tweetee.

    For example, saying “All Lives Matter” is a tiresome and pathetic argument, but it doesn’t really constitute anything apart from dimwittedness. I understand some have been sacked for saying that.

    This time though, it’s an open and shut case.
    BiB - really? That would surprise me, though I guess it might depend on the context and if they'd said anything else.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Is that even a question.
    Of course you do.
    In 2021, it's not really a question.
    But I wonder how far you would have to go back in time for it to be a question, and how much further back you'd have to go for it to be not a question but the other way.

    I can't prove it, but I suspect the answers to both those questions are "not very many years". And a fair chunk of the discomfort in Britain at the moment is because society has quietly but decisively changed and some people either haven't noticed the change (so they get caught out) or have noticed the change and don't like being in the minority.

    Take PC World tackle out guy, or firework up the bottom man. I'm sure things like that have happened before- but I don't recall them being figures to laugh at in quite the same way in the past. Or the fierce support of the English team after they lost- there's been pushback against the condemnation of Southgate, Rashford and the others which I don't recall from previous defeats.

    It feels like a real change, and one I quite like.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    edited July 2021
    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    It is a judgement call by Southgate. He believed Saka was more likely to score than Grealish. Maybe he was right, we shall never know if Jack would have scored or missed.

    Nonetheless, Grealish is right to call out Sky Sports fake news.

    I am more surprised that with Kane so quiet, immediately after the Italy goal, Grealish was not brought on to liven up the quiet attacking midfield. I generally believe South gate doesn't rate Grealish.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,797

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    "I want to take one!" isn't the same as being in any fit state to do so. We don't know how and why the list was finalised but had the game been won in open play it wouldn't matter. Anyone can miss a penalty.
    Also the match was not necessarily going to stop at 5. If Grealish had taken that one and scored then would Saka have been next?

    The statistics show that the team that goes first wins more often than not. That is because of the pressure Saka was under then and very probably would have been later.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.
    My friends did Lazio v Arsenal in October 2000. They were locked in the ground for an hour after the game and when they came out it looked like a war zone.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    I see someone got banned - who was that?

    England did really better than most of us expected - can't win them all. Embarrassed by some of our fans though, even if Leon thinks them just being manly.

    FUDHY I think. The mod said that if anyone screenshot his post and sent it to the media, he’d have to resign his seat.
    Ah - didn't see that. I don't think I'd have squealed, not sure anyone would - as Leon said recently, we're a sort of family.
    It wasn’t anything. He said we would have won if Rashford had spent more time practicing and less time campaigning. Typical pointless argument from him.
    He was just being funny. It's his dry sense of humour. I was surprised people were getting hot under the collar about it
    HYUFD was banned?!
    Nah. It was @borisatsun for some obnoxious racist stuff. Rightly banned imo.

    @HYUFD just left himself open to being publicly embarassed as an elected Conservative making ridiculous posts... if anyone can be bothered.
    No I was not banned and I said the same thing in my WhatsApp for local Tories after I posted it here and most of them agreed with me.

    The fact is Rashford was openly campaigning for Labour policy, he became too political given he is still a highly paid professional footballer with other things to concentrate on.

    It was nothing to do with BLM or the knee which I see as personal choice though I am sceptical of the Marxism within the BLM manifesto now to dismantle capitalism obviously
    HYUFD, you are wrong, and you have been posting questionable nonsense on here for the last twelve hours.

    If you believe Rashford was being overtly party political, you are also wrong. If anything, Labour jumped onto the Rashford bandwagon rather than the other way around.
    I think that's factually correct, though we were right to jump on it as it was a good cause. But anyway - how would Tories doing this stuff feel if Rashford had scored the winner and we said "This shows that Rashford and Lsbour were right"? They'd say "Idiots!" and they'd be right. Footballers sometimes score and sometimes miss an opportunity. There is NO political significance in it either way.
    Rashford has very carefully avoided party political statements. He would probably make a very good politician if he decided to go that way.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,884
    Now we've discovered Southgate isn't quite up to being England manager why doesn't he try for PM where the bar is much lower? A seat in parliament should be a doddle and we know from yesterday he's miles more popular than any of them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,231

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    It is a judgement call by Southgate. He believed Saka was more likely to score than Grealish. Maybe he was right, we shall never know if Jack would have scored or missed.

    Nonetheless, Grealish is right to call out Sky Sports fake news.
    I seriously pity Southgate. He very probably won’t win a tournament now, so he will go down as the man that lost the euros twice, 25 years apart, at home, first as player then as manager - on penalties

    He is not redeemed. It is quite the tragedy. He’s a decent bloke who has been DP’d by Fate
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.
    My friends did Lazio v Arsenal in October 2000. They were locked in the ground for an hour after the game and when they came out it looked like a war zone.
    Lazio and Rome have "proper" ultras i.e. the hooligan firms, based around extreme left and ring wing politics.

    There were some disgraceful scenes in London yesterday, but to say I don't understand why English fans are so bad compared to our lovely European neighbours is absolute horsesh"t.

    Hooliganism is really rare at Premiership games now, lower league there is some. But across the continent, it is in many leagues it is an integral part of match day "experience"...as is overt racism e.g. Italy, monkey chants of players, extremely common.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    For me Southgate has done well in a lot of areas, England have porogressed well under him in the past two tournaments (c.f. 2014 World Cup).

    But... Despite it being widely acknowledged we had fantastic options on the bench, and the opportunity to use up to six substitutes, Southgate did too little, too late with that option.

    Bringing on (even) more pace for the last 30 mins of normal time could have tipped it imho.

    As for the penalties - pah! - it's a lottery, they could easily have gone the other way.

    In any event, I find it strangely anticlimatic to win a competition on penalties - the 2008 Man U Champions League title is not as satisfying as the other two for me.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Is that even a question.
    Of course you do.
    In 2021, it's not really a question.
    But I wonder how far you would have to go back in time for it to be a question, and how much further back you'd have to go for it to be not a question but the other way.

    I can't prove it, but I suspect the answers to both those questions are "not very many years". And a fair chunk of the discomfort in Britain at the moment is because society has quietly but decisively changed and some people either haven't noticed the change (so they get caught out) or have noticed the change and don't like being in the minority.

    Take PC World tackle out guy, or firework up the bottom man. I'm sure things like that have happened before- but I don't recall them being figures to laugh at in quite the same way in the past. Or the fierce support of the English team after they lost- there's been pushback against the condemnation of Southgate, Rashford and the others which I don't recall from previous defeats.

    It feels like a real change, and one I quite like.
    Society is changing fast.

    When I went to school here in 1993 (for a year) I was actually shocked by the casual homophobia expressed in the red-tops. It felt backward.

    Now, everyone’s gay.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,211

    Charles said:

    Prime Minister Boris Johnson said: "We are tantalisingly close to the final milestone in our roadmap out of lockdown, but the plan to restore our freedoms must come with a warning."

    So, Freedom Day a damp squib then. Close. But not yet there. A plan to restore freedom, not action to restore freedom.

    Strange, I read on this very board from PB Clown Apologists that this absolutely would not happen.
    The funny thing is you criticise Boris when he does one thing, then you criticise him fir a course correction.

    I think you’d criticise him regardless of what he did. Which makes your criticism of limited value.
    Its not even a course correction.

    He never said and was never going to say "this is over, lets have an orgy and act like Soddom and Gomorrah, there is no need to be cautious".

    The power of law has been replaced with advice and guidance, as it should be. Now its on responsible adults to pick and choose how to behave.
    Yes but, as we've discussed before, how free in practice will people actually be when Johnson is allegedly going to talk about an expectation to wear masks, for example. In effect, it may as well still be a legal requirement.

    Using language like this, if he does, will give supermarkets and the like license to stick with the same Covid measures (lines on floor, screens, etc (not just masks)) as they are now and also will give the hectoring zeros license to chide others. This could become very unpleasant.

    I'm hoping that when he speaks he repeats the learn to live with it messaging from the last announcement. But I think Johnson the sheep has had his head turned again.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,037

    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Floater said:

    After hubris comes nemesis.

    Yawn
    Yawn

    I wish you wankers had the bottle to actually fuck off and leave the UK. Sadly you didn't and we're stuck with the stench of a dead country that can't find its own dick because it's fallen off.
    How can they be wankers AND have dicks that have fallen off? I’m assuming they aren’t transgender
    Admirable logic Charles.
    Though it ignores the possibility of the one coming before the other.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522

    Pulpstar said:

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Savills will 100% sack him but I'd imagine they'd want to consult with employment lawyers 1st. Sacking people without following the correct processes can be expensive, and I'm quite sure a process needs to be followed no matter how egregious an incident.
    Yup - suspend him, subject to a disciplinary hearing. Otherwise you risk giving a possibly (since the charge needs to be proved) very unpleasant person a large sum of money.
    I'm not altogether sure about this. How far does the company own your private life? If you're well-known to be a spokesperson, sure, that definitely means you shouldn't bring the company into disrepute. Likewise if you say "As a manager for X, I must say that...". But if you merely tweet as Joe Bloggs and nobody except your colleagues and friends know you work for X, are you accountable to them? I don't think so. (I argued similarly for the communist behaviourist on SAGE and am trying to be balanced - I don't think being employed gives your employer a right to own your personal views.)

    That's separate from the legality of what you say. If you post incitement to hatred, you should be prosecuted. But I'm assuming here that you say something that most people find offensive but isn't illegal.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,231

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    It is a judgement call by Southgate. He believed Saka was more likely to score than Grealish. Maybe he was right, we shall never know if Jack would have scored or missed.

    Nonetheless, Grealish is right to call out Sky Sports fake news.

    I am more surprised that with Kane so quiet, immediately after the Italy goal, Grealish was not brought on to liven up the quiet attacking midfield. I generally believe South gate doesn't rate Grealish.
    Southgate doesn’t like attacking, full stop. It is the quintessence of the man. Cautious, thoughtful, quietly clever. It’s just not enough to win huge prizes.

    But he is likeable and eloquent, and he has humanized the team, and that’s no small thing.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    On penalty takers: I assume the logic was to specify the takers in descending order of likelihood to score, in order to a) increase the pressure on the Italians taking the later penalties and b) reduce the pressure on England takers 4 and 5, presumably because Southgate reckoned he had 3 guaranteed scorers and the quality fell off pretty steeply after that.

    Things went wrong when Rashford missed - if he'd scored, the Italians taking the last two would have been right up against it, and Sancho and (especially) Saka would have been able to relax (slightly).

    I refuse to believe Southgate did not have a pre-specified written plan for penalties, and also that he did not know, to two significant figures, the scoring chances of every player on the pitch at the end of 120 minutes.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,211
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    It is a judgement call by Southgate. He believed Saka was more likely to score than Grealish. Maybe he was right, we shall never know if Jack would have scored or missed.

    Nonetheless, Grealish is right to call out Sky Sports fake news.
    I seriously pity Southgate. He very probably won’t win a tournament now, so he will go down as the man that lost the euros twice, 25 years apart, at home, first as player then as manager - on penalties

    He is not redeemed. It is quite the tragedy. He’s a decent bloke who has been DP’d by Fate
    "DP’d by Fate". lol. That was worth a 'like'.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,351
    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    I think he said that he chose people on the basis of how well they'd been taking penalties in training. Maybe Saka has scored 250 penalties in training to Grealish's 242?

    Training for penalties is important, but it's very different in front of the crowd. Reckon it was the wrong choice, but clear that Southgate rates Saka above Grealish in general.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    It is a judgement call by Southgate. He believed Saka was more likely to score than Grealish. Maybe he was right, we shall never know if Jack would have scored or missed.

    Nonetheless, Grealish is right to call out Sky Sports fake news.
    I seriously pity Southgate. He very probably won’t win a tournament now, so he will go down as the man that lost the euros twice, 25 years apart, at home, first as player then as manager - on penalties

    He is not redeemed. It is quite the tragedy. He’s a decent bloke who has been DP’d by Fate
    Southgate has reached a major final. The first Manager to do so since Sir Alf. That in itself is one hell of an achievement.

    It was all down to divine intervention. If only Italy hadn't taken the knee, it could have been so different.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,852
    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    I've been listening to R4 much of the morning. I'm quite surprised that they've not mentioned (possibly I just missed) Branson's success with his space-plane.

    On their website though.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57797297

    I know it's not quite the same league as Musk/Bezos etc, but its still an extraordinary achievement.

    It isn't an extraordinary achievement - more a case of sunk cost fallacy crawling across the line.

    Hybrid rocket motors are terrible at scaling and efficient combustion. Just looking at the exhaust yesterday, you could see the masses of unburnt propellant. Which makes for horrendous vibration and will cause another accident at some point.

    The feathering system has killed one person already and doesn't work for more than low suborbital flight.

    The development process was supremely incompetent and killed a number of people in totally avoidable accidents. Playing with pressurised tanks of a mono-propellant, known to be heat sensitive, in the desert sun? Without temperature pressure gauges through the entire system? While people stood a few yards away? While you open a "slam" valve?
    NFW would I go on one of them (in the unlikely event of my having the spare cash).
    Though I see his mate Elon has bought a ticket:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-richard-branson-space-flight-b1882180.html
    Tbh I don't really see the point of this space tourism. You go up and come down again. It is not like there is a stop-off on Mars or the Moon, or even a decent view. It's a lot of money for bragging rights, and "I've almost but not quite been in space" is not much of a brag.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173

    For me Southgate has done well in a lot of areas, England have porogressed well under him in the past two tournaments (c.f. 2014 World Cup).

    But... Despite it being widely acknowledged we had fantastic options on the bench, and the opportunity to use up to six substitutes, Southgate did too little, too late with that option.

    Bringing on (even) more pace for the last 30 mins of normal time could have tipped it imho.

    As for the penalties - pah! - it's a lottery, they could easily have gone the other way.

    In any event, I find it strangely anticlimatic to win a competition on penalties - the 2008 Man U Champions League title is not as satisfying as the other two for me.

    Another obvious change is to do penalties before extra time. It would make extra time much more interesting.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Pulpstar said:

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Savills will 100% sack him but I'd imagine they'd want to consult with employment lawyers 1st. Sacking people without following the correct processes can be expensive, and I'm quite sure a process needs to be followed no matter how egregious an incident.
    Yup - suspend him, subject to a disciplinary hearing. Otherwise you risk giving a possibly (since the charge needs to be proved) very unpleasant person a large sum of money.
    I'm not altogether sure about this. How far does the company own your private life? If you're well-known to be a spokesperson, sure, that definitely means you shouldn't bring the company into disrepute. Likewise if you say "As a manager for X, I must say that...". But if you merely tweet as Joe Bloggs and nobody except your colleagues and friends know you work for X, are you accountable to them? I don't think so. (I argued similarly for the communist behaviourist on SAGE and am trying to be balanced - I don't think being employed gives your employer a right to own your personal views.)

    That's separate from the legality of what you say. If you post incitement to hatred, you should be prosecuted. But I'm assuming here that you say something that most people find offensive but isn't illegal.
    I think once you go on Twitter you are going public with your private life.

    I would not expect my employees to put up with have someone making disgraceful comments like that in their midst. There is also the company’s reputation to consider.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,211
    Endillion said:

    On penalty takers: I assume the logic was to specify the takers in descending order of likelihood to score, in order to a) increase the pressure on the Italians taking the later penalties and b) reduce the pressure on England takers 4 and 5, presumably because Southgate reckoned he had 3 guaranteed scorers and the quality fell off pretty steeply after that.

    Things went wrong when Rashford missed - if he'd scored, the Italians taking the last two would have been right up against it, and Sancho and (especially) Saka would have been able to relax (slightly).

    I refuse to believe Southgate did not have a pre-specified written plan for penalties, and also that he did not know, to two significant figures, the scoring chances of every player on the pitch at the end of 120 minutes.

    Of course he had a written list for the penalties. The five takers should have been separated from the other players and had a heads-down with the the team psychologists and Southgate seconds after the final whistle.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Charles said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Gary Neville on Sky News: 'I'm just reading your breaking news and it says "PM condemns racist abuse of England players"... the prime minister said it was okay for the population of this country to boo those players who were trying to promote equality and defend against racism.'
    https://twitter.com/samuelluckhurst/status/1414493438163173377

    Did sky highlight the fact that he was a Corbyn supporter?
    What has that got to do with anything? Neville's observation is either right or wrong. I despise Corbyn with a vengeance, however I interpret Neville's analysis to be accurate.
    I would agree with Neville's observation but I'm irritated by his using his football commentary platform platform to make it. It is also fair comment by those who disagree that he supported the worst political leader in modern British history.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,169
    edited July 2021
    tlg86 said:

    For me Southgate has done well in a lot of areas, England have porogressed well under him in the past two tournaments (c.f. 2014 World Cup).

    But... Despite it being widely acknowledged we had fantastic options on the bench, and the opportunity to use up to six substitutes, Southgate did too little, too late with that option.

    Bringing on (even) more pace for the last 30 mins of normal time could have tipped it imho.

    As for the penalties - pah! - it's a lottery, they could easily have gone the other way.

    In any event, I find it strangely anticlimatic to win a competition on penalties - the 2008 Man U Champions League title is not as satisfying as the other two for me.

    Another obvious change is to do penalties before extra time. It would make extra time much more interesting.
    Penalties and the losing team for penalties can win by winning extra time - a draw or win for the other side is a win for them ?
    One of Southgate's problems is that Trippier and Mount would have been in the original five pen takers.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,231

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.
    My friends did Lazio v Arsenal in October 2000. They were locked in the ground for an hour after the game and when they came out it looked like a war zone.
    Lazio and Rome have "proper" ultras i.e. the hooligan firms, based around extreme left and ring wing politics.

    There were some disgraceful scenes in London yesterday, but to say I don't understand why English fans are so bad compared to our lovely European neighbours is absolute horsesh"t.

    Hooliganism is really rare at Premiership games now, lower league there is some. But across the continent, it is in many leagues it is an integral part of match day "experience"...as is overt racism e.g. Italy, monkey chants of players, extremely common.
    Quite. Anyone who asks ‘why are English fans so uniquely bad?!?’ is either being disingenuous or has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. As this is NPXMP, I favour the latter explanation.

    Nick is not duplicitous, just weirdly and totally ignorant in certain areas. Which is probably true of most of us
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    I must say, the racist tweets I saw quoted by Sunder Katwala this morning really don't sound like they were written by English people.

    If you wanted to sow division and hatred in a country, this is the kind of thing you would do, isn't it?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,037

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    I've been listening to R4 much of the morning. I'm quite surprised that they've not mentioned (possibly I just missed) Branson's success with his space-plane.

    On their website though.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57797297

    I know it's not quite the same league as Musk/Bezos etc, but its still an extraordinary achievement.

    It isn't an extraordinary achievement - more a case of sunk cost fallacy crawling across the line.

    Hybrid rocket motors are terrible at scaling and efficient combustion. Just looking at the exhaust yesterday, you could see the masses of unburnt propellant. Which makes for horrendous vibration and will cause another accident at some point.

    The feathering system has killed one person already and doesn't work for more than low suborbital flight.

    The development process was supremely incompetent and killed a number of people in totally avoidable accidents. Playing with pressurised tanks of a mono-propellant, known to be heat sensitive, in the desert sun? Without temperature pressure gauges through the entire system? While people stood a few yards away? While you open a "slam" valve?
    NFW would I go on one of them (in the unlikely event of my having the spare cash).
    Though I see his mate Elon has bought a ticket:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-richard-branson-space-flight-b1882180.html
    Tbh I don't really see the point of this space tourism. You go up and come down again. It is not like there is a stop-off on Mars or the Moon, or even a decent view. It's a lot of money for bragging rights, and "I've almost but not quite been in space" is not much of a brag.
    Throw in the non zero possibility of a fiery death, and I don't, either.
    Bungee jumping for very, very rich people, essentially.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,203

    Pulpstar said:

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Savills will 100% sack him but I'd imagine they'd want to consult with employment lawyers 1st. Sacking people without following the correct processes can be expensive, and I'm quite sure a process needs to be followed no matter how egregious an incident.
    Yup - suspend him, subject to a disciplinary hearing. Otherwise you risk giving a possibly (since the charge needs to be proved) very unpleasant person a large sum of money.
    I'm not altogether sure about this. How far does the company own your private life? If you're well-known to be a spokesperson, sure, that definitely means you shouldn't bring the company into disrepute. Likewise if you say "As a manager for X, I must say that...". But if you merely tweet as Joe Bloggs and nobody except your colleagues and friends know you work for X, are you accountable to them? I don't think so. (I argued similarly for the communist behaviourist on SAGE and am trying to be balanced - I don't think being employed gives your employer a right to own your personal views.)

    That's separate from the legality of what you say. If you post incitement to hatred, you should be prosecuted. But I'm assuming here that you say something that most people find offensive but isn't illegal.
    The ship has long sailed on that. If you make public comments that can be traced back to you, your company has the right to bin you....

    Unless you want to bring back the old style ACLU...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Mr. JohnL, perhaps it's like silver cutlery of a ten thousand pound watch. It's not that the knife is sharper. Or the time is more accurate. But it sure is fancy.

    Bragging rights have driven a lot of human behaviour.

    In the Middle Ages, and a little later, there were (usually ignored) laws on what quality/type of fur people could wear. Even in falconry, it was meant to be only emperors who could have a golden eagle (though good luck telling a king he wasn't important enough).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.
    My friends did Lazio v Arsenal in October 2000. They were locked in the ground for an hour after the game and when they came out it looked like a war zone.
    Can't remember if it was in the Buford book or an article I read back in the 80s, about hardcore Italian thugs expressing perplexity that their UK counterparts hooliganised while drunk. The Italians thought it would take the edge off their game, and preferred to do their work on water and reminisce after the event over a carafe or 2 of vino.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    For me Southgate has done well in a lot of areas, England have porogressed well under him in the past two tournaments (c.f. 2014 World Cup).

    But... Despite it being widely acknowledged we had fantastic options on the bench, and the opportunity to use up to six substitutes, Southgate did too little, too late with that option.

    Bringing on (even) more pace for the last 30 mins of normal time could have tipped it imho.

    As for the penalties - pah! - it's a lottery, they could easily have gone the other way.

    In any event, I find it strangely anticlimatic to win a competition on penalties - the 2008 Man U Champions League title is not as satisfying as the other two for me.

    Another obvious change is to do penalties before extra time. It would make extra time much more interesting.
    Penalties and the losing team for penalties can win by winning extra time - a draw or win for the other side is a win for them ?
    One of Southgate's problems is that Trippier and Mount would have been in the original five pen takers.
    Basically winning the penalties gives you half a goal. Also, it removes the option of bringing on players for penalties (although, that might protect managers from themselves to be honest!).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    I see someone got banned - who was that?

    England did really better than most of us expected - can't win them all. Embarrassed by some of our fans though, even if Leon thinks them just being manly.

    FUDHY I think. The mod said that if anyone screenshot his post and sent it to the media, he’d have to resign his seat.
    Ah - didn't see that. I don't think I'd have squealed, not sure anyone would - as Leon said recently, we're a sort of family.
    It wasn’t anything. He said we would have won if Rashford had spent more time practicing and less time campaigning. Typical pointless argument from him.
    He was just being funny. It's his dry sense of humour. I was surprised people were getting hot under the collar about it
    HYUFD was banned?!
    Nah. It was @borisatsun for some obnoxious racist stuff. Rightly banned imo.

    @HYUFD just left himself open to being publicly embarassed as an elected Conservative making ridiculous posts... if anyone can be bothered.
    No I was not banned and I said the same thing in my WhatsApp for local Tories after I posted it here and most of them agreed with me.

    The fact is Rashford was openly campaigning for Labour policy, he became too political given he is still a highly paid professional footballer with other things to concentrate on.

    It was nothing to do with BLM or the knee which I see as personal choice though I am sceptical of the Marxism within the BLM manifesto now to dismantle capitalism obviously
    HYUFD, you are wrong, and you have been posting questionable nonsense on here for the last twelve hours.

    If you believe Rashford was being overtly party political, you are also wrong. If anything, Labour jumped onto the Rashford bandwagon rather than the other way around.
    I think that's factually correct, though we were right to jump on it as it was a good cause. But anyway - how would Tories doing this stuff feel if Rashford had scored the winner and we said "This shows that Rashford and Lsbour were right"? They'd say "Idiots!" and they'd be right. Footballers sometimes score and sometimes miss an opportunity. There is NO political significance in it either way.
    Rashford has very carefully avoided party political statements. He would probably make a very good politician if he decided to go that way.
    I don't think so. Everything he does is careful handled by RocNation. He basically only does interviews on his activism with one particular journalist, who is big friends with the lady who runs his PR at RocNation.

    Its not a secret (or unique for famous people) for RocNation handle his extremely informed tweets, which often occur during times he is training or very shortly after with facts that nobody knows off the top their head, as is the stream of liking, replying and retweeting.

    That isn't to say he doesn't believe in whiat he does, that he doesn't make a difference, but it is all very carefully molded by extremely good PR people.

    When the government get into a spat over thing he is lobbying / campaigning over, they are up against an individual footballer, they are playing against a whole PR team who work for an organisation whose mission is social change.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,362

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    I've been listening to R4 much of the morning. I'm quite surprised that they've not mentioned (possibly I just missed) Branson's success with his space-plane.

    On their website though.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57797297

    I know it's not quite the same league as Musk/Bezos etc, but its still an extraordinary achievement.

    It isn't an extraordinary achievement - more a case of sunk cost fallacy crawling across the line.

    Hybrid rocket motors are terrible at scaling and efficient combustion. Just looking at the exhaust yesterday, you could see the masses of unburnt propellant. Which makes for horrendous vibration and will cause another accident at some point.

    The feathering system has killed one person already and doesn't work for more than low suborbital flight.

    The development process was supremely incompetent and killed a number of people in totally avoidable accidents. Playing with pressurised tanks of a mono-propellant, known to be heat sensitive, in the desert sun? Without temperature pressure gauges through the entire system? While people stood a few yards away? While you open a "slam" valve?
    NFW would I go on one of them (in the unlikely event of my having the spare cash).
    Though I see his mate Elon has bought a ticket:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-richard-branson-space-flight-b1882180.html
    Tbh I don't really see the point of this space tourism. You go up and come down again. It is not like there is a stop-off on Mars or the Moon, or even a decent view. It's a lot of money for bragging rights, and "I've almost but not quite been in space" is not much of a brag.
    It's a very expensive amusement park ride - the ability to experience weightlessness for a few minutes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,203

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    I've been listening to R4 much of the morning. I'm quite surprised that they've not mentioned (possibly I just missed) Branson's success with his space-plane.

    On their website though.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57797297

    I know it's not quite the same league as Musk/Bezos etc, but its still an extraordinary achievement.

    It isn't an extraordinary achievement - more a case of sunk cost fallacy crawling across the line.

    Hybrid rocket motors are terrible at scaling and efficient combustion. Just looking at the exhaust yesterday, you could see the masses of unburnt propellant. Which makes for horrendous vibration and will cause another accident at some point.

    The feathering system has killed one person already and doesn't work for more than low suborbital flight.

    The development process was supremely incompetent and killed a number of people in totally avoidable accidents. Playing with pressurised tanks of a mono-propellant, known to be heat sensitive, in the desert sun? Without temperature pressure gauges through the entire system? While people stood a few yards away? While you open a "slam" valve?
    NFW would I go on one of them (in the unlikely event of my having the spare cash).
    Though I see his mate Elon has bought a ticket:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-richard-branson-space-flight-b1882180.html
    Tbh I don't really see the point of this space tourism. You go up and come down again. It is not like there is a stop-off on Mars or the Moon, or even a decent view. It's a lot of money for bragging rights, and "I've almost but not quite been in space" is not much of a brag.
    Musk is quite non-competitive on this - he could easily have given himself a seat on a Dragon flight by now, including a stay at ISS.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Mr. JohnL, perhaps it's like silver cutlery of a ten thousand pound watch. It's not that the knife is sharper. Or the time is more accurate. But it sure is fancy.

    Bragging rights have driven a lot of human behaviour.

    In the Middle Ages, and a little later, there were (usually ignored) laws on what quality/type of fur people could wear. Even in falconry, it was meant to be only emperors who could have a golden eagle (though good luck telling a king he wasn't important enough).

    My mechanical watch is currently 9 seconds out. Last set for BST change.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,810

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    I see someone got banned - who was that?

    England did really better than most of us expected - can't win them all. Embarrassed by some of our fans though, even if Leon thinks them just being manly.

    FUDHY I think. The mod said that if anyone screenshot his post and sent it to the media, he’d have to resign his seat.
    Ah - didn't see that. I don't think I'd have squealed, not sure anyone would - as Leon said recently, we're a sort of family.
    It wasn’t anything. He said we would have won if Rashford had spent more time practicing and less time campaigning. Typical pointless argument from him.
    He was just being funny. It's his dry sense of humour. I was surprised people were getting hot under the collar about it
    HYUFD was banned?!
    Nah. It was @borisatsun for some obnoxious racist stuff. Rightly banned imo.

    @HYUFD just left himself open to being publicly embarassed as an elected Conservative making ridiculous posts... if anyone can be bothered.
    No I was not banned and I said the same thing in my WhatsApp for local Tories after I posted it here and most of them agreed with me.

    The fact is Rashford was openly campaigning for Labour policy, he became too political given he is still a highly paid professional footballer with other things to concentrate on.

    It was nothing to do with BLM or the knee which I see as personal choice though I am sceptical of the Marxism within the BLM manifesto now to dismantle capitalism obviously
    HYUFD, you are wrong, and you have been posting questionable nonsense on here for the last twelve hours.

    If you believe Rashford was being overtly party political, you are also wrong. If anything, Labour jumped onto the Rashford bandwagon rather than the other way around.
    I think that's factually correct, though we were right to jump on it as it was a good cause. But anyway - how would Tories doing this stuff feel if Rashford had scored the winner and we said "This shows that Rashford and Lsbour were right"? They'd say "Idiots!" and they'd be right. Footballers sometimes score and sometimes miss an opportunity. There is NO political significance in it either way.
    Rashford has very carefully avoided party political statements. He would probably make a very good politician if he decided to go that way.
    I don't think so. Everything he does is careful handled by RocNation. He basically only does interviews on his activism with one particular journalist, who is big friends with the lady who runs his PR at RocNation.

    Its not a secret (or unique for famous people) for RocNation handle his extremely informed tweets, which often occur during times he is training or very shortly after with facts that nobody knows off the top their head, as is the stream of liking, replying and retweeting.

    That isn't to say he doesn't believe in whiat he does, that he doesn't make a difference, but it is all very carefully molded by extremely good PR people.
    But he has the sense to do it that way in the first place. Which is 90% of the battle.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,037
    Incidentally, was this criminal assault ?
    https://twitter.com/bnhwalker/status/1414328923966644227
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,721

    Pulpstar said:

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Savills will 100% sack him but I'd imagine they'd want to consult with employment lawyers 1st. Sacking people without following the correct processes can be expensive, and I'm quite sure a process needs to be followed no matter how egregious an incident.
    Yup - suspend him, subject to a disciplinary hearing. Otherwise you risk giving a possibly (since the charge needs to be proved) very unpleasant person a large sum of money.
    I'm not altogether sure about this. How far does the company own your private life? If you're well-known to be a spokesperson, sure, that definitely means you shouldn't bring the company into disrepute. Likewise if you say "As a manager for X, I must say that...". But if you merely tweet as Joe Bloggs and nobody except your colleagues and friends know you work for X, are you accountable to them? I don't think so. (I argued similarly for the communist behaviourist on SAGE and am trying to be balanced - I don't think being employed gives your employer a right to own your personal views.)

    That's separate from the legality of what you say. If you post incitement to hatred, you should be prosecuted. But I'm assuming here that you say something that most people find offensive but isn't illegal.
    I this particular instance (if as it appears) the person has surely made his/her position completely untenable. Post something like that in public - how can that person work with black colleagues, black clients?

    It's overt racism, different to political views. I can be a member of the BNP and I wouldn't really care whether the person selling my house is a communist and vice versa. But if I'm black I would care, I think, if the person selling my house, who I would have to deal with extensively, is openly racist. If I'm gay I care whether they are openly homophobic. You can have a perfectly good professional relationship with someone who has completely opposite political views to you, but not with someone who openly hates you.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    Apologies if this has already been posted:

    Thailand has decided to mix two vaccines in a bid to boost protection amid a spike in new infections.

    Instead of two shots of China's Sinovac vaccine, people will now receive AstraZeneca as their second dose.

    The move comes after hundreds of medical workers caught Covid despite being fully vaccinated with Sinovac.

    Health workers already fully vaccinated with Sinovac will also receive a third booster dose of either the AstraZeneca vaccine, or an mRNA vaccines like Pfizer/BioNTech.

    AstraZeneca is currently the only other vaccine available in the country, with Pfizer/BioNTech shots donated by the US set to arrive soon.

    Thailand is currently in the midst of a spike of new infections, reporting a record high of 9,418 on Sunday.

    Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57801824
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173
    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.
    My friends did Lazio v Arsenal in October 2000. They were locked in the ground for an hour after the game and when they came out it looked like a war zone.
    Can't remember if it was in the Buford book or an article I read back in the 80s, about hardcore Italian thugs expressing perplexity that their UK counterparts hooliganised while drunk. The Italians thought it would take the edge off their game, and preferred to do their work on water and reminisce after the event over a carafe or 2 of vino.
    The Russian mob at Euro 2016 looked like an elite outfit compared to our lot!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,810

    Pulpstar said:

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Savills will 100% sack him but I'd imagine they'd want to consult with employment lawyers 1st. Sacking people without following the correct processes can be expensive, and I'm quite sure a process needs to be followed no matter how egregious an incident.
    Yup - suspend him, subject to a disciplinary hearing. Otherwise you risk giving a possibly (since the charge needs to be proved) very unpleasant person a large sum of money.
    I'm not altogether sure about this. How far does the company own your private life? If you're well-known to be a spokesperson, sure, that definitely means you shouldn't bring the company into disrepute. Likewise if you say "As a manager for X, I must say that...". But if you merely tweet as Joe Bloggs and nobody except your colleagues and friends know you work for X, are you accountable to them? I don't think so. (I argued similarly for the communist behaviourist on SAGE and am trying to be balanced - I don't think being employed gives your employer a right to own your personal views.)

    That's separate from the legality of what you say. If you post incitement to hatred, you should be prosecuted. But I'm assuming here that you say something that most people find offensive but isn't illegal.
    I think once you go on Twitter you are going public with your private life.

    I would not expect my employees to put up with have someone making disgraceful comments like that in their midst. There is also the company’s reputation to consider.
    It may in any case be part of the contract of employment and/or linked corporate policies that you don't engage in such behaviour - and if so no need to wait for a criminal case etc. The due procedure is however necessary, not least because Twitter accounts can be faked and profile pics stolen tbf.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,203
    IshmaelZ said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.
    My friends did Lazio v Arsenal in October 2000. They were locked in the ground for an hour after the game and when they came out it looked like a war zone.
    Can't remember if it was in the Buford book or an article I read back in the 80s, about hardcore Italian thugs expressing perplexity that their UK counterparts hooliganised while drunk. The Italians thought it would take the edge off their game, and preferred to do their work on water and reminisce after the event over a carafe or 2 of vino.
    I am trying to remember which South American country had openly nazi* types controlling supporters clubs, which in turn had a chunk of control of the clubs themselves. It was organised like an army....

    *Fans of Hitler kind of Nazis
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    Endillion said:

    On penalty takers: I assume the logic was to specify the takers in descending order of likelihood to score, in order to a) increase the pressure on the Italians taking the later penalties and b) reduce the pressure on England takers 4 and 5, presumably because Southgate reckoned he had 3 guaranteed scorers and the quality fell off pretty steeply after that.

    Things went wrong when Rashford missed - if he'd scored, the Italians taking the last two would have been right up against it, and Sancho and (especially) Saka would have been able to relax (slightly).

    I refuse to believe Southgate did not have a pre-specified written plan for penalties, and also that he did not know, to two significant figures, the scoring chances of every player on the pitch at the end of 120 minutes.

    I agree with this. Rashford was the killer-miss for me. He'd done all the hard work by sending the keeper the wrong way and just needed to finish it off. If he had we would've been in a very strong position. Italy would've been under a lot of pressure. I suspect that Sancho and Saka would have been a bit more relaxed.

    Having said that, I can't really see the logic in putting in a 19yo kid as your fifth and potentially decisive penalty taker. Had he ever taken a penalty in a professional match before? Surely there were better options? Even Jordan Pickford who belted in a great penalty 2 years ago for England.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    edited July 2021
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    I see someone got banned - who was that?

    England did really better than most of us expected - can't win them all. Embarrassed by some of our fans though, even if Leon thinks them just being manly.

    FUDHY I think. The mod said that if anyone screenshot his post and sent it to the media, he’d have to resign his seat.
    Ah - didn't see that. I don't think I'd have squealed, not sure anyone would - as Leon said recently, we're a sort of family.
    It wasn’t anything. He said we would have won if Rashford had spent more time practicing and less time campaigning. Typical pointless argument from him.
    He was just being funny. It's his dry sense of humour. I was surprised people were getting hot under the collar about it
    HYUFD was banned?!
    Nah. It was @borisatsun for some obnoxious racist stuff. Rightly banned imo.

    @HYUFD just left himself open to being publicly embarassed as an elected Conservative making ridiculous posts... if anyone can be bothered.
    No I was not banned and I said the same thing in my WhatsApp for local Tories after I posted it here and most of them agreed with me.

    The fact is Rashford was openly campaigning for Labour policy, he became too political given he is still a highly paid professional footballer with other things to concentrate on.

    It was nothing to do with BLM or the knee which I see as personal choice though I am sceptical of the Marxism within the BLM manifesto now to dismantle capitalism obviously
    HYUFD, you are wrong, and you have been posting questionable nonsense on here for the last twelve hours.

    If you believe Rashford was being overtly party political, you are also wrong. If anything, Labour jumped onto the Rashford bandwagon rather than the other way around.
    I think that's factually correct, though we were right to jump on it as it was a good cause. But anyway - how would Tories doing this stuff feel if Rashford had scored the winner and we said "This shows that Rashford and Lsbour were right"? They'd say "Idiots!" and they'd be right. Footballers sometimes score and sometimes miss an opportunity. There is NO political significance in it either way.
    Rashford has very carefully avoided party political statements. He would probably make a very good politician if he decided to go that way.
    I don't think so. Everything he does is careful handled by RocNation. He basically only does interviews on his activism with one particular journalist, who is big friends with the lady who runs his PR at RocNation.

    Its not a secret (or unique for famous people) for RocNation handle his extremely informed tweets, which often occur during times he is training or very shortly after with facts that nobody knows off the top their head, as is the stream of liking, replying and retweeting.

    That isn't to say he doesn't believe in whiat he does, that he doesn't make a difference, but it is all very carefully molded by extremely good PR people.
    But he has the sense to do it that way in the first place. Which is 90% of the battle.
    Erhhh, not quite. RocNation ask their clients what is something that concerns you / have personal experience and they develop campaigns from this. Its part of being with them as an agency.

    There are two reasons, they want to use star platforms to enact some change and it is great for branding / commercial opportunities.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,173
    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, was this criminal assault ?
    https://twitter.com/bnhwalker/status/1414328923966644227

    It's a serious foul in the NFL (15 yard penalty). Don't see so often in association football, but I thought a red card would have been appropriate.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522
    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.
    My friends did Lazio v Arsenal in October 2000. They were locked in the ground for an hour after the game and when they came out it looked like a war zone.
    Lazio and Rome have "proper" ultras i.e. the hooligan firms, based around extreme left and ring wing politics.

    There were some disgraceful scenes in London yesterday, but to say I don't understand why English fans are so bad compared to our lovely European neighbours is absolute horsesh"t.

    Hooliganism is really rare at Premiership games now, lower league there is some. But across the continent, it is in many leagues it is an integral part of match day "experience"...as is overt racism e.g. Italy, monkey chants of players, extremely common.
    Quite. Anyone who asks ‘why are English fans so uniquely bad?!?’ is either being disingenuous or has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. As this is NPXMP, I favour the latter explanation.

    Nick is not duplicitous, just weirdly and totally ignorant in certain areas. Which is probably true of most of us
    Fair enough. I confess to ignorance. My experience of football is pretty limited, and mostly Danish, where hooliganism is really rare.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Mr. Z, I haven't bought one but I was quite tempted by a wrist-mounted sundial, with a compass so you can align it properly.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    I've been listening to R4 much of the morning. I'm quite surprised that they've not mentioned (possibly I just missed) Branson's success with his space-plane.

    On their website though.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57797297

    I know it's not quite the same league as Musk/Bezos etc, but its still an extraordinary achievement.

    It isn't an extraordinary achievement - more a case of sunk cost fallacy crawling across the line.

    Hybrid rocket motors are terrible at scaling and efficient combustion. Just looking at the exhaust yesterday, you could see the masses of unburnt propellant. Which makes for horrendous vibration and will cause another accident at some point.

    The feathering system has killed one person already and doesn't work for more than low suborbital flight.

    The development process was supremely incompetent and killed a number of people in totally avoidable accidents. Playing with pressurised tanks of a mono-propellant, known to be heat sensitive, in the desert sun? Without temperature pressure gauges through the entire system? While people stood a few yards away? While you open a "slam" valve?
    NFW would I go on one of them (in the unlikely event of my having the spare cash).
    Though I see his mate Elon has bought a ticket:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-richard-branson-space-flight-b1882180.html
    Tbh I don't really see the point of this space tourism. You go up and come down again. It is not like there is a stop-off on Mars or the Moon, or even a decent view. It's a lot of money for bragging rights, and "I've almost but not quite been in space" is not much of a brag.
    It's a very expensive amusement park ride - the ability to experience weightlessness for a few minutes.
    I'd pay for a safe orbit of the earth though. Out and round the moon would be even better but for an ordinary mortal like me I supect a week of weightlessness would be an enourmous ordeal.

    Maybe I'll wait until they have spinning space cruisers with artificial gravity 😃
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,203

    Mr. Z, I haven't bought one but I was quite tempted by a wrist-mounted sundial, with a compass so you can align it properly.

    There was one, a while back, that had a motorised mount, with GPS built in. So, when you held your wrist level, and pressed the button, the sundial would rotate to the correct orientation.

    Yes, GPS means that you actually know the time to the nano-second.....
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,810

    Mr. Z, I haven't bought one but I was quite tempted by a wrist-mounted sundial, with a compass so you can align it properly.

    Of flint hand-knapped in neo-Mesolithic style for extra chic, one assumes.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,351
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    It is a judgement call by Southgate. He believed Saka was more likely to score than Grealish. Maybe he was right, we shall never know if Jack would have scored or missed.

    Nonetheless, Grealish is right to call out Sky Sports fake news.

    I am more surprised that with Kane so quiet, immediately after the Italy goal, Grealish was not brought on to liven up the quiet attacking midfield. I generally believe South gate doesn't rate Grealish.
    Southgate doesn’t like attacking, full stop. It is the quintessence of the man. Cautious, thoughtful, quietly clever. It’s just not enough to win huge prizes.

    But he is likeable and eloquent, and he has humanized the team, and that’s no small thing.
    Isn't it just that, as our Francis has said, he's looked at the players available and decided the key weakness of the team is in central defence, and if he doesn't protect that other teams will run through us?

    I feel like most previous England managers haven't done much more than choose the eleven best players and then try to put them in some sort of order. Feels like maybe Southgate looked at what he had and then organised them in a way that made the most of them - which has meant sacrificing attacking strength to cover for defensive weakness.

    It's not my instinctive way. I'm often more a glorious defeat is better than boring victory sort of person, but we might have ended up losing 3-2 to Croatia in the opening game if we'd tried to play more attacking, and then who knows.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    IshmaelZ said:

    Mr. JohnL, perhaps it's like silver cutlery of a ten thousand pound watch. It's not that the knife is sharper. Or the time is more accurate. But it sure is fancy.

    Bragging rights have driven a lot of human behaviour.

    In the Middle Ages, and a little later, there were (usually ignored) laws on what quality/type of fur people could wear. Even in falconry, it was meant to be only emperors who could have a golden eagle (though good luck telling a king he wasn't important enough).

    My mechanical watch is currently 9 seconds out. Last set for BST change.

    My iPhone is spot on, and I have never had to set it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    I've been listening to R4 much of the morning. I'm quite surprised that they've not mentioned (possibly I just missed) Branson's success with his space-plane.

    On their website though.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57797297

    I know it's not quite the same league as Musk/Bezos etc, but its still an extraordinary achievement.

    It isn't an extraordinary achievement - more a case of sunk cost fallacy crawling across the line.

    Hybrid rocket motors are terrible at scaling and efficient combustion. Just looking at the exhaust yesterday, you could see the masses of unburnt propellant. Which makes for horrendous vibration and will cause another accident at some point.

    The feathering system has killed one person already and doesn't work for more than low suborbital flight.

    The development process was supremely incompetent and killed a number of people in totally avoidable accidents. Playing with pressurised tanks of a mono-propellant, known to be heat sensitive, in the desert sun? Without temperature pressure gauges through the entire system? While people stood a few yards away? While you open a "slam" valve?
    NFW would I go on one of them (in the unlikely event of my having the spare cash).
    Though I see his mate Elon has bought a ticket:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-richard-branson-space-flight-b1882180.html
    Tbh I don't really see the point of this space tourism. You go up and come down again. It is not like there is a stop-off on Mars or the Moon, or even a decent view. It's a lot of money for bragging rights, and "I've almost but not quite been in space" is not much of a brag.
    Yes - I can see it being a big thing if one actually is in space, but whilst damn close as an experience it doesn't seem to have that appeal without actually achieving space. If I'm super wealthy I'd want the real deal.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Mr. Carnyx, Mesolithic?

    Nothing so steeped in vulgar modernity!
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,274
    Remember Patel and Johnson refused to criticize the booing of players taking the knee and now they’re pretending they’re outraged by the racist abuse . Will the media call them out on this ?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    AlistairM said:

    Endillion said:

    On penalty takers: I assume the logic was to specify the takers in descending order of likelihood to score, in order to a) increase the pressure on the Italians taking the later penalties and b) reduce the pressure on England takers 4 and 5, presumably because Southgate reckoned he had 3 guaranteed scorers and the quality fell off pretty steeply after that.

    Things went wrong when Rashford missed - if he'd scored, the Italians taking the last two would have been right up against it, and Sancho and (especially) Saka would have been able to relax (slightly).

    I refuse to believe Southgate did not have a pre-specified written plan for penalties, and also that he did not know, to two significant figures, the scoring chances of every player on the pitch at the end of 120 minutes.

    I agree with this. Rashford was the killer-miss for me. He'd done all the hard work by sending the keeper the wrong way and just needed to finish it off. If he had we would've been in a very strong position. Italy would've been under a lot of pressure. I suspect that Sancho and Saka would have been a bit more relaxed.

    Having said that, I can't really see the logic in putting in a 19yo kid as your fifth and potentially decisive penalty taker. Had he ever taken a penalty in a professional match before? Surely there were better options? Even Jordan Pickford who belted in a great penalty 2 years ago for England.
    A bit of post hoc logic, I think. If Rashford and Sancho had scored, and Saka had then followed suit to win it for us, we'd be talking about what a great decision it was to put faith in a youngster who could step up without the baggage of previous misses, or seeing his boss miss one live when he was a kid.

    It can go either way - the main difference is not that Saka is worse placed to deal with the pressure of having to score, but that he's much worse placed to deal with the guilt of having missed.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Mr. Z, I haven't bought one but I was quite tempted by a wrist-mounted sundial, with a compass so you can align it properly.

    You're also going to need a declinator on it and wait for a cloudless night to correct for magnetic declination.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    I must say, the racist tweets I saw quoted by Sunder Katwala this morning really don't sound like they were written by English people.

    If you wanted to sow division and hatred in a country, this is the kind of thing you would do, isn't it?

    I think its been established before that even a lot of things that seem like they must be by bots, for example, often are not. Simplest explanation is usually the best, and conspiracy is not the simplest.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,203

    Mr. Carnyx, Mesolithic?

    Nothing so steeped in vulgar modernity!

    Something in the more refined portions of the Hadean, perhaps?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    nico679 said:

    Remember Patel and Johnson refused to criticize the booing of players taking the knee and now they’re pretending they’re outraged by the racist abuse . Will the media call them out on this ?

    Racist abuse that more likely came from Moscow than Manchester...??
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    nico679 said:

    Remember Patel and Johnson refused to criticize the booing of players taking the knee and now they’re pretending they’re outraged by the racist abuse . Will the media call them out on this ?

    Patel needs calling out on the policing. Was a shambles by all accounts.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,037
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, was this criminal assault ?
    https://twitter.com/bnhwalker/status/1414328923966644227

    It's a serious foul in the NFL (15 yard penalty). Don't see so often in association football, but I thought a red card would have been appropriate.
    Point being that there is reasonable doubt about motive, if some effort is being made to compete for the ball. Here, it was blatant assault, for which there is no implied consent on the part of a player taking part in a contact sport.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    It is a judgement call by Southgate. He believed Saka was more likely to score than Grealish. Maybe he was right, we shall never know if Jack would have scored or missed.

    Nonetheless, Grealish is right to call out Sky Sports fake news.
    I seriously pity Southgate. He very probably won’t win a tournament now, so he will go down as the man that lost the euros twice, 25 years apart, at home, first as player then as manager - on penalties

    He is not redeemed. It is quite the tragedy. He’s a decent bloke who has been DP’d by Fate
    He'll be fine. He'll be remembered for it, sure, but he still achieved the best results one of our managers has for a long time. He hasn't erased what he'll be known for, but there will always be a 'but' after they mention it, which is more than most of ours.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,037

    Mr. Z, I haven't bought one but I was quite tempted by a wrist-mounted sundial, with a compass so you can align it properly.

    In Yorkshire ?
    That's just daft.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,547
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    For me Southgate has done well in a lot of areas, England have porogressed well under him in the past two tournaments (c.f. 2014 World Cup).

    But... Despite it being widely acknowledged we had fantastic options on the bench, and the opportunity to use up to six substitutes, Southgate did too little, too late with that option.

    Bringing on (even) more pace for the last 30 mins of normal time could have tipped it imho.

    As for the penalties - pah! - it's a lottery, they could easily have gone the other way.

    In any event, I find it strangely anticlimatic to win a competition on penalties - the 2008 Man U Champions League title is not as satisfying as the other two for me.

    Another obvious change is to do penalties before extra time. It would make extra time much more interesting.
    Penalties and the losing team for penalties can win by winning extra time - a draw or win for the other side is a win for them ?
    One of Southgate's problems is that Trippier and Mount would have been in the original five pen takers.
    Surely Sterling would have replaced one of those?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,231

    Leon said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Cyclefree said:

    **.... tiptoes in gently. Sees that PB still talking about football.

    Quietly leaves this - https://barry-walsh.co.uk/hiding-in-plain-sight/ - and this - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/20/revealed-the-grim-list-of-sex-abuse-claims-against-metropolitan-police - here.

    Tiptoes out muttering "Il calcio e tornato a casa" .....**

    @Cyclefree, you're Italian for God's sake!

    As the bloke in The Italian Job spake:

    "Well, look 'appy, you stupid bastards! We won, didn't we?!"

    :lol:

    She's being supremely tactful.
    A friend in italy reports much spontaneous joy, singing and fireworks. Zero violence or aggression to Brits as far as she can see.

    Why is fan behaviour so much worse in Britain? Genuine question - I have no idea.
    You have obviously never seen the likes of the Rome derby.....its total standard for people to be stabbed in the butt left, right and centre.
    My friends did Lazio v Arsenal in October 2000. They were locked in the ground for an hour after the game and when they came out it looked like a war zone.
    Lazio and Rome have "proper" ultras i.e. the hooligan firms, based around extreme left and ring wing politics.

    There were some disgraceful scenes in London yesterday, but to say I don't understand why English fans are so bad compared to our lovely European neighbours is absolute horsesh"t.

    Hooliganism is really rare at Premiership games now, lower league there is some. But across the continent, it is in many leagues it is an integral part of match day "experience"...as is overt racism e.g. Italy, monkey chants of players, extremely common.
    Quite. Anyone who asks ‘why are English fans so uniquely bad?!?’ is either being disingenuous or has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. As this is NPXMP, I favour the latter explanation.

    Nick is not duplicitous, just weirdly and totally ignorant in certain areas. Which is probably true of most of us
    Fair enough. I confess to ignorance. My experience of football is pretty limited, and mostly Danish, where hooliganism is really rare.
    Even there you are wrong! Denmark has a very developed hooligan culture

    https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/denmark-hooligans-organise-insane-20-24403451


    https://www.joe.ie/uncategorized/video-mental-footage-of-a-punch-up-between-two-gangs-of-football-hooligans-in-denmark-350029

    I have finally concluded that most of your opinions derive from an idealistic, naive and almost determinedly uninformed view of the world. Which is sweet in a way. But it also explains your support for Corbyn
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kle4 said:

    I must say, the racist tweets I saw quoted by Sunder Katwala this morning really don't sound like they were written by English people.

    If you wanted to sow division and hatred in a country, this is the kind of thing you would do, isn't it?

    I think its been established before that even a lot of things that seem like they must be by bots, for example, often are not. Simplest explanation is usually the best, and conspiracy is not the simplest.
    It was probably said by people.

    Just not by English people.

    Look at the language. English people don't speak like that.

    What proof do you have the perpetrators were English people...?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    nico679 said:

    Remember Patel and Johnson refused to criticize the booing of players taking the knee and now they’re pretending they’re outraged by the racist abuse . Will the media call them out on this ?

    When it is two separate things, why would they? Why do you believe they must be pretending to be outraged by racist abuse? People are very often outraged by such a thing even if they are a nasty piece of work on something else, that's not even necessarily inconsistent.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,282
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    For me Southgate has done well in a lot of areas, England have porogressed well under him in the past two tournaments (c.f. 2014 World Cup).

    But... Despite it being widely acknowledged we had fantastic options on the bench, and the opportunity to use up to six substitutes, Southgate did too little, too late with that option.

    Bringing on (even) more pace for the last 30 mins of normal time could have tipped it imho.

    As for the penalties - pah! - it's a lottery, they could easily have gone the other way.

    In any event, I find it strangely anticlimatic to win a competition on penalties - the 2008 Man U Champions League title is not as satisfying as the other two for me.

    Another obvious change is to do penalties before extra time. It would make extra time much more interesting.
    Penalties and the losing team for penalties can win by winning extra time - a draw or win for the other side is a win for them ?
    One of Southgate's problems is that Trippier and Mount would have been in the original five pen takers.
    The other plus about penalties before extra time is that there would be no need for 5 to be taken - it would not be unfair to go sudden death straight away.

    I thought this before last night - but the "oh, look and England would have won" is a rather pointless little bonus.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,351
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, was this criminal assault ?
    https://twitter.com/bnhwalker/status/1414328923966644227

    It's a serious foul in the NFL (15 yard penalty). Don't see so often in association football, but I thought a red card would have been appropriate.
    I think the one thing that might change the balance of reward for fouling would be a sin bin - five minutes off the pitch for every tackle leading to a free kick.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, was this criminal assault ?
    https://twitter.com/bnhwalker/status/1414328923966644227

    It's a serious foul in the NFL (15 yard penalty). Don't see so often in association football, but I thought a red card would have been appropriate.
    Point being that there is reasonable doubt about motive, if some effort is being made to compete for the ball. Here, it was blatant assault, for which there is no implied consent on the part of a player taking part in a contact sport.
    Bloody hell. There'd be some lawyers out in force at amateur rugby league.
    The NWC division 6 would be all prison teams in short order.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, was this criminal assault ?
    https://twitter.com/bnhwalker/status/1414328923966644227

    It's a serious foul in the NFL (15 yard penalty). Don't see so often in association football, but I thought a red card would have been appropriate.
    It's not a red card unless he's denying a clear goalscoring opportunity, which he isn't because it's miles from goal and there are other players who could cover. Chiellini knew exactly what he was doing, which was taking a meaningless yellow card for shutting down a dangerous-looking attack at a crucial moment.

    It's a loophole that badly needs addressing, because the rules are a relic of a 19th century game which never envisaged that such blatant cynicism could happen between gentlemen. It would be easy to fix as well: just replace yellow cards with [10] minute timeouts, while keeping straight reds for the most violent offences. Also fixes a number of other problems: the soft second yellow cards leading to reds late in the game, or which are wrongly given, and the nonsense of players randomly missing crucial games because they've racked up too many yellows in the competition. Punishment should be in the same game as the crime as far as possible - the only remaining issue is what you do about deliberate yellow card offences in the final minutes of a match.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Mr. JohnL, perhaps it's like silver cutlery of a ten thousand pound watch. It's not that the knife is sharper. Or the time is more accurate. But it sure is fancy.

    Bragging rights have driven a lot of human behaviour.

    In the Middle Ages, and a little later, there were (usually ignored) laws on what quality/type of fur people could wear. Even in falconry, it was meant to be only emperors who could have a golden eagle (though good luck telling a king he wasn't important enough).

    My mechanical watch is currently 9 seconds out. Last set for BST change.

    My iPhone is spot on, and I have never had to set it.
    Yeah but it cheats, it looks up the time on the internet while your back is turned. Plus I like the thought of all those little cogs beavering away 24/7.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Charles said:

    I see someone got banned - who was that?

    England did really better than most of us expected - can't win them all. Embarrassed by some of our fans though, even if Leon thinks them just being manly.

    FUDHY I think. The mod said that if anyone screenshot his post and sent it to the media, he’d have to resign his seat.
    Ah - didn't see that. I don't think I'd have squealed, not sure anyone would - as Leon said recently, we're a sort of family.
    It wasn’t anything. He said we would have won if Rashford had spent more time practicing and less time campaigning. Typical pointless argument from him.
    He was just being funny. It's his dry sense of humour. I was surprised people were getting hot under the collar about it
    HYUFD was banned?!
    Nah. It was @borisatsun for some obnoxious racist stuff. Rightly banned imo.

    @HYUFD just left himself open to being publicly embarassed as an elected Conservative making ridiculous posts... if anyone can be bothered.
    No I was not banned and I said the same thing in my WhatsApp for local Tories after I posted it here and most of them agreed with me.

    The fact is Rashford was openly campaigning for Labour policy, he became too political given he is still a highly paid professional footballer with other things to concentrate on.

    It was nothing to do with BLM or the knee which I see as personal choice though I am sceptical of the Marxism within the BLM manifesto now to dismantle capitalism obviously
    HYUFD, you are wrong, and you have been posting questionable nonsense on here for the last twelve hours.

    If you believe Rashford was being overtly party political, you are also wrong. If anything, Labour jumped onto the Rashford bandwagon rather than the other way around.
    I think that's factually correct, though we were right to jump on it as it was a good cause. But anyway - how would Tories doing this stuff feel if Rashford had scored the winner and we said "This shows that Rashford and Lsbour were right"? They'd say "Idiots!" and they'd be right. Footballers sometimes score and sometimes miss an opportunity. There is NO political significance in it either way.
    Rashford has very carefully avoided party political statements. He would probably make a very good politician if he decided to go that way.
    I don't think so. Everything he does is careful handled by RocNation. He basically only does interviews on his activism with one particular journalist, who is big friends with the lady who runs his PR at RocNation.

    Its not a secret (or unique for famous people) for RocNation handle his extremely informed tweets, which often occur during times he is training or very shortly after with facts that nobody knows off the top their head, as is the stream of liking, replying and retweeting.

    That isn't to say he doesn't believe in whiat he does, that he doesn't make a difference, but it is all very carefully molded by extremely good PR people.
    But he has the sense to do it that way in the first place. Which is 90% of the battle.
    Precisely. I've never really got this criticism that he is being carefully advised and presented by savvy PR advisers. That in itself is a choice he has made, and one most campaigners, particularly celebrity campaigners, don't make very well. He makes a good front man for what they are trying to do, he obviously believes in the work they want him to promote, and he hasn't, so far, overstepped or become uber partisan or arrogant and undermined that work.

    Shows he is pretty sensible, and is careful to present things in a way to appeal to as many as possible, not just a base to make himself feel good about being on the right side of things, and as such is more effective - skills a politician would need.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,414
    Just had one of those 'your NHI number has been involved in fraud and we're coming to get you' calls. From a landline this time, apparently based in Clevedon.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    tlg86 said:

    The Russian mob at Euro 2016 looked like an elite outfit compared to our lot!

    IIRC there were members of the Russian parliament cheering on their hooligans.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,960
    BREAKING: Indonesia reports 40,427 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase on record, and 891 new deaths
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,231
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmm. Once we get over our knee-taking reverence for Southgate, I feel this will impact


    ‘I said I wanted to take one!!!!
    The gaffer has made so many right decisions through this tournament and he did tonight! But I won’t have people say that I didn’t want to take a peno when I said I will…’

    He chose Saka over Grealish. Why??

    https://twitter.com/jackgrealish/status/1414522271859888132?s=21

    It is a judgement call by Southgate. He believed Saka was more likely to score than Grealish. Maybe he was right, we shall never know if Jack would have scored or missed.

    Nonetheless, Grealish is right to call out Sky Sports fake news.
    I seriously pity Southgate. He very probably won’t win a tournament now, so he will go down as the man that lost the euros twice, 25 years apart, at home, first as player then as manager - on penalties

    He is not redeemed. It is quite the tragedy. He’s a decent bloke who has been DP’d by Fate
    He'll be fine. He'll be remembered for it, sure, but he still achieved the best results one of our managers has for a long time. He hasn't erased what he'll be known for, but there will always be a 'but' after they mention it, which is more than most of ours.
    No, football is cruel. He’s now a double loser.

    As he’s obviously such a nice guy, it is particularly unfair. But unless he does something miraculous in the WC he will be the bloke that lost the euros. Twice. At home. On penalties

    There will be footnotes but when fans think of him the first reactions will be a sigh, and a frown

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,775
    Mr. glw, I find it hard to believe a Russian politician could approve of violence.
  • SandraMcSandraMc Posts: 694
    We have now had 3 threads in a row about football. I personally find the issues raised by Cyclefree about sexism in the police far more interesting - and disturbing.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,414
    dixiedean said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Incidentally, was this criminal assault ?
    https://twitter.com/bnhwalker/status/1414328923966644227

    It's a serious foul in the NFL (15 yard penalty). Don't see so often in association football, but I thought a red card would have been appropriate.
    Point being that there is reasonable doubt about motive, if some effort is being made to compete for the ball. Here, it was blatant assault, for which there is no implied consent on the part of a player taking part in a contact sport.
    Bloody hell. There'd be some lawyers out in force at amateur rugby league.
    The NWC division 6 would be all prison teams in short order.
    I like Rugby League; no nonsense about stopping if a player appears hurt. Just get on with it until the next natural break, but don't step on the poor chap.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,810
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Z, I haven't bought one but I was quite tempted by a wrist-mounted sundial, with a compass so you can align it properly.

    In Yorkshire ?
    That's just daft.
    Hand-operated windup torch included as backup. (No spending on batteries.)
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,242

    kle4 said:

    I must say, the racist tweets I saw quoted by Sunder Katwala this morning really don't sound like they were written by English people.

    If you wanted to sow division and hatred in a country, this is the kind of thing you would do, isn't it?

    I think its been established before that even a lot of things that seem like they must be by bots, for example, often are not. Simplest explanation is usually the best, and conspiracy is not the simplest.
    It was probably said by people.

    Just not by English people.

    Look at the language. English people don't speak like that.

    What proof do you have the perpetrators were English people...?
    A New Age airhead has defaced a mural of Marcus Rashford with a howl of meaningless psychobabble. No proper Englishman could utter a sentence like that:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-57803161
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,118

    Pulpstar said:

    Meanwhile, the woke monster rears its ugly head again. Savills are launching an investigation after one of their managers tweeted the "Niggers ruined it for us" message last night. The woke doing further digging and have found a sock-puppet twitter account with even more racism.

    Question. You are a company. A member of your staff is outed as posting horrendous racism causing people to react against your company. Do you sack him for gross misconduct?

    https://twitter.com/Savills/status/1414484312137912321
    https://twitter.com/HeathertheHeron/status/1414510292525101060

    Savills will 100% sack him but I'd imagine they'd want to consult with employment lawyers 1st. Sacking people without following the correct processes can be expensive, and I'm quite sure a process needs to be followed no matter how egregious an incident.
    Yup - suspend him, subject to a disciplinary hearing. Otherwise you risk giving a possibly (since the charge needs to be proved) very unpleasant person a large sum of money.
    I'm not altogether sure about this. How far does the company own your private life? If you're well-known to be a spokesperson, sure, that definitely means you shouldn't bring the company into disrepute. Likewise if you say "As a manager for X, I must say that...". But if you merely tweet as Joe Bloggs and nobody except your colleagues and friends know you work for X, are you accountable to them? I don't think so. (I argued similarly for the communist behaviourist on SAGE and am trying to be balanced - I don't think being employed gives your employer a right to own your personal views.)

    That's separate from the legality of what you say. If you post incitement to hatred, you should be prosecuted. But I'm assuming here that you say something that most people find offensive but isn't illegal.
    That's a really important point.

    It wasn't so long ago that Public Authorities were sacking everyday bloggers under 'damage our reputation' clauses. How far does that right extend?

    Should Drs making party political commentary about the NHS (especially conspiracy theories about it) still be in their jobs? What about Professors who say 'the wrong things'?

    Now perhaps we see it sharply with people carrying media Job Titles on their Twitter bios to build a profile, with a 'retweet is not endorsement' and 'opinions are not my employer's' smokescreens.
  • https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1414539672781574146

    Boris Johnson and Patel have blood on their hands
This discussion has been closed.