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Why lockdown scepticism doesn’t resonate much with the voters – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited July 2021 in General
Why lockdown scepticism doesn’t resonate much with the voters – politicalbetting.com

What Brits think matters more with regards to COVID-19: Trying to save every life: 55% Protecting economy: 22%https://t.co/L7VRviUiZV pic.twitter.com/py52WX26HR

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Comments

  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited July 2021
    All's quiet on the Western front
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663
    edited July 2021
    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021

    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)

    AFAIK it is on both.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    edited July 2021

    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)

    Exclusively live on ITV with commentators Sam Matterface and Lee 'Mogadon' Dixon.

    Also no UHD.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021

    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)

    Exclusively live on ITV with Sam Matterface and Lee 'Mogadon' Dixon.

    Also no UHD.
    According to the BBC TV guide it is on both?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/guide/bbcone/20210707
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631

    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)

    Exclusively live on ITV with Sam Matterface and Lee 'Mogadon' Dixon.

    Also no UHD.
    According to the UK guide it is on both?
    That's a provisional schedule.

    Here's Gary Lineker confirming it.

    https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1411453879544434688
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,374

    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)

    Exclusively live on ITV with Sam Matterface and Lee 'Mogadon' Dixon.

    Also no UHD.
    According to the UK guide it is on both?
    That’s ridiculous. Do we really need a football match on two FTA channels?

    At least with Prince Philip’s death it was a major national occasion.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    How much money would the 55% pay to 'save every life' ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991

    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)

    Exclusively live on ITV with Sam Matterface and Lee 'Mogadon' Dixon.

    Also no UHD.
    According to the UK guide it is on both?
    That's a provisional schedule.

    Here's Gary Lineker confirming it.

    https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1411453879544434688
    Scratches head...."provisional schedule"....the semi-finals aren't just out of the blue. Or is there some weird deal where no England in the semi, they both show it? England get there and ITV has the rights?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,663

    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)

    Exclusively live on ITV with commentators Sam Matterface and Lee 'Mogadon' Dixon.

    Also no UHD.
    ☹️
    image
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Afternoon all :)

    So we'd rather be alive than rich - who'd have thunk it?

    Perhaps this may be a clue that public policy aimed at improving the quality of life (however you define that) will always resonate more than "here's some cash - it's up to you what you do with it".

    It follows (I think) it may be possible to sell tax rises on the back of said improvements. "Making Life Better for All" - could be someone's campaign slogan.

    The morning after the night before - the most one-sided conflict in Rome since Genseric vs Petronius Maximus in 455. I'm much less confident about Denmark but I'm hoping my office sweep pick, Spain, will somehow luck out against Italy but I'm not hopeful.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631

    Repeated FPT as I've been new-threaded:

    Never mind sausages, or @Leon's crap beer... can anyone settle the most important issue of the day:

    Is the England-Denmark game on BBC as well as ITV?

    (Obviously if it's ITV only we lose ☹️)

    Exclusively live on ITV with Sam Matterface and Lee 'Mogadon' Dixon.

    Also no UHD.
    According to the UK guide it is on both?
    That's a provisional schedule.

    Here's Gary Lineker confirming it.

    https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1411453879544434688
    Scratches head...."provisional schedule"....the semi-finals aren't just out of the blue. Or is there some weird deal where no England in the semi, they both show it? England get there and ITV has the rights?
    They have one semi final each with ITV having first pick.

    If England had been knocked out last night then ITV would have taken Tuesday's semi between Italy and Spain.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    ITV should have all football removed from them for not offering UHD and the streaming platform not even being HD. I mean it is bad enough iPlayer on non-tv platforms isn't full HD i.e. 720p (let alone 4k), but only offering SD streaming in 2021 is worse than pineapple on pizza.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,296
    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    BREAKING: #Wimbledon's centre and No 1 courts will feature maximum capacity crowds for the quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals - meaning they will be the first full outdoor stadiums at a sporting event in the UK since the coronavirus pandemic began.

    https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1411672253935280129
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874

    BREAKING: #Wimbledon's centre and No 1 courts will feature maximum capacity crowds for the quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals - meaning they will be the first full outdoor stadiums at a sporting event in the UK since the coronavirus pandemic began.

    https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1411672253935280129

    Why can't we have capacity crowds at next weekend's horse race meetings at Newmarket, Ascot, York and Chester? For some reason, Wimbledon seems to be the only event that matters (and some football match in North-West London I believe).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    stodge said:

    BREAKING: #Wimbledon's centre and No 1 courts will feature maximum capacity crowds for the quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals - meaning they will be the first full outdoor stadiums at a sporting event in the UK since the coronavirus pandemic began.

    https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1411672253935280129

    Why can't we have capacity crowds at next weekend's horse race meetings at Newmarket, Ascot, York and Chester? For some reason, Wimbledon seems to be the only event that matters (and some football match in North-West London I believe).
    I think is a prelude to Wembley having full capacity next Sunday.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited July 2021
    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991

    stodge said:

    BREAKING: #Wimbledon's centre and No 1 courts will feature maximum capacity crowds for the quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals - meaning they will be the first full outdoor stadiums at a sporting event in the UK since the coronavirus pandemic began.

    https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1411672253935280129

    Why can't we have capacity crowds at next weekend's horse race meetings at Newmarket, Ascot, York and Chester? For some reason, Wimbledon seems to be the only event that matters (and some football match in North-West London I believe).
    I think is a prelude to Wembley having full capacity next Sunday.
    Even more people can say there were there when Italy beat England....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited July 2021
    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the weighted average value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    Yet we need leaders who can do that, and if the public have no understanding of the balancing act of determing such things it will punish such thinking, to the greater detriment of society if the leaders start making decisions on that basis. It's a superficially nice thought, when a harder thought might actually be nicer.

    Edited
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    Russia reports 25,142 new coronavirus cases, the biggest one-day increase since January 2, and 663 new deaths
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the weighted average value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    Yet we need leaders who can do that, and if the public have no understanding of that it will punish such thinking, to the greater detriment of society.
    That is also true.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    That polling question is more loaded than the fries at a New York bar.

    As if 'saving every life' versus 'protecting the economy' were the choice on offer. Its an utterly false choice.

    Ask any country that does not have a good economy.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    So we'd rather be alive than rich - who'd have thunk it?

    Perhaps this may be a clue that public policy aimed at improving the quality of life (however you define that) will always resonate more than "here's some cash - it's up to you what you do with it".

    It follows (I think) it may be possible to sell tax rises on the back of said improvements. "Making Life Better for All" - could be someone's campaign slogan.

    The morning after the night before - the most one-sided conflict in Rome since Genseric vs Petronius Maximus in 455. I'm much less confident about Denmark but I'm hoping my office sweep pick, Spain, will somehow luck out against Italy but I'm not hopeful.

    The notion that lockdowns 'save lives' is completely false. They save some lives, and they cost others.

    Same thing with the de Santis Florida approach. Maybe some more deaths of some types, fewer of others.

    A brave politicians takes their choice and stands by it.

    Alternatively, Boris Johnson and his government. The course of minimum responsibility, regardless of lives.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    Schools in England are “bleeding out” with thousands of teachers having to isolate under a bubble system that is harming the most vulnerable children, ministers have been warned.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jul/04/schools-bleeding-out-covid-isolation-rules-headteachers-england

    I remember when the same people were all moaning that teaching kids was all far too risky and schools must be shut at all times....at the time, the government said it harms in particular vulnerable and poor kids.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    That polling question is more loaded than the fries at a New York bar.

    As if 'saving every life' versus 'protecting the economy' were the choice on offer. Its an utterly false choice.

    Ask any country that does not have a good economy.

    But you've written reams of stuff framing lockdown as sacrificing the economy for the sake of fewer virus casualties - ie there WAS a choice and we made the wrong one.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    I don't think Mrs Johnson will be interested...

    Tenants of a John Lewis-owned home will have the option of renting the property fully furnished with the department store’s products

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/04/john-lewis-plans-to-build-10000-rental-homes-on-its-land-waitrose
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,348
    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited July 2021

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    So we'd rather be alive than rich - who'd have thunk it?

    Perhaps this may be a clue that public policy aimed at improving the quality of life (however you define that) will always resonate more than "here's some cash - it's up to you what you do with it".

    It follows (I think) it may be possible to sell tax rises on the back of said improvements. "Making Life Better for All" - could be someone's campaign slogan.

    The morning after the night before - the most one-sided conflict in Rome since Genseric vs Petronius Maximus in 455. I'm much less confident about Denmark but I'm hoping my office sweep pick, Spain, will somehow luck out against Italy but I'm not hopeful.

    The notion that lockdowns 'save lives' is completely false. They save some lives, and they cost others.

    That's not false, as they may do more of the former than the latter, the impacts may not be equal. The question is surely whether the costs of lockdown, in terms of lives impacted and economic effect, is a proportionate response to the human and economic costs if it is not done.

    People disagree about that, with you at the extreme 'no' end, but it is perfectly consistent for people to think the answer was 'yes', but by this time is 'no'.

  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    stodge said:

    BREAKING: #Wimbledon's centre and No 1 courts will feature maximum capacity crowds for the quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals - meaning they will be the first full outdoor stadiums at a sporting event in the UK since the coronavirus pandemic began.

    https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1411672253935280129

    Why can't we have capacity crowds at next weekend's horse race meetings at Newmarket, Ascot, York and Chester? For some reason, Wimbledon seems to be the only event that matters (and some football match in North-West London I believe).
    I think is a prelude to Wembley having full capacity next Sunday.
    Even more people can say there were there when Italy beat England....
    People are talking like Southgate is a genius, when the fact is he has the squad.

    Look at the England bench and deeper into the squad, and tell me those guys would not be first name on the team sheet for 90% of the sides in this competition.

    Foden has barely been used and might well not be again, but I bet the Danes would love a player like that, for example. Ukraine would. Almost anybody would. For England its Phil who?

    At international level you can only play the cards you are dealt. Southgate has an amazing hand. He's competent sure, but genius? nope.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    Norris penalised for a near carbon copy of the move which Verstappen pulled on Leclerc two years ago.
    Absurd.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Time to commit the ultimate sin (nothing to do with pizza toppings) and comment on a previous thread.

    Trump was the first one-term Republican to be voted out of office in a very long time. Ford lost in 1976 but he had never been "elected" (he wasn't on the 1972 GOP ticket). Indeed, he nearly lost the 1976 nomination to Reagan so it was perhaps inevitable by 1980 Reagan would be the obvious choice.

    We'll never know whether Ford might have considered a 1984 run has Reagan lost in 1980 but for all his Presidency was short-lived and under the long shadow of Nixon and Watergate, I think history has been pretty kind to Gerald Ford.

    Before Ford, you had Herbert Hoover who lost to FDR in 1932. That ended a 12-year period of Republican control of the White House. Hoover remained a strong critic of FDR and the "New Deal" and, like Ford, was mentioned as a possible challenger in 1936 but stood aside - Alf Landon eventually got the nomination but was crushed in the General Election.

    Before Hoover, there was Taft who lost the 1912 election in extraordinary circumstances to Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt who split the Republicans and ran as a Progressive candidate.

    A better parallel might be Benjamin Harrison, who, as with Trump, lost the popular vote twice - in 1888 he won enough ECV to become President but in 1892 he was decisively defeated by Grover Cleveland.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021

    stodge said:

    BREAKING: #Wimbledon's centre and No 1 courts will feature maximum capacity crowds for the quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals - meaning they will be the first full outdoor stadiums at a sporting event in the UK since the coronavirus pandemic began.

    https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1411672253935280129

    Why can't we have capacity crowds at next weekend's horse race meetings at Newmarket, Ascot, York and Chester? For some reason, Wimbledon seems to be the only event that matters (and some football match in North-West London I believe).
    I think is a prelude to Wembley having full capacity next Sunday.
    Even more people can say there were there when Italy beat England....
    People are talking like Southgate is a genius, when the fact is he has the squad.

    Look at the England bench and deeper into the squad, and tell me those guys would not be first name on the team sheet for 90% of the sides in this competition.

    Foden has barely been used and might well not be again, but I bet the Danes would love a player like that, for example. Ukraine would. Almost anybody would. For England its Phil who?

    At international level you can only play the cards you are dealt. Southgate has an amazing hand. He's competent sure, but genius? nope.
    Yes and no....England have lesser players in defence at international level, but an array of attacking talent. Thus, it has further encouraged Southgate to follow a conservative path, which so far as worked out well.

    Apparently his whole vision is driven by desire to minimize what he calls "chaotic" situations i.e. he doesn't think England should play the sort of high press high energy that most Premier League teams successfully deploy. He thinks that can lead to too many risky situations that could expose England, thus he opts for an approach which is much slower and condenses / marks space.

    So good so far....

    The big question is if England fall behind and then face say an Italy who will become very negative and happy to block out the game, does Southgate have a plan B that can successfully combine all the attacking talent to unlock a team whose only goal is to block out time.

    England under Southgate so far have never really shown this ability.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kinabalu said:

    That polling question is more loaded than the fries at a New York bar.

    As if 'saving every life' versus 'protecting the economy' were the choice on offer. Its an utterly false choice.

    Ask any country that does not have a good economy.

    But you've written reams of stuff framing lockdown as sacrificing the economy for the sake of fewer virus casualties - ie there WAS a choice and we made the wrong one.
    Vaccinations have undoubtedly saved the lives of many vulnerable people, but I think its at least debatable whether hard lockdowns 'saved' lives at all. I believed they cost the lives of people suffering with non-covid afflications, and they will continue to do so for years to come.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638
    stodge said:

    Time to commit the ultimate sin (nothing to do with pizza toppings) and comment on a previous thread.

    Trump was the first one-term Republican to be voted out of office in a very long time. Ford lost in 1976 but he had never been "elected" (he wasn't on the 1972 GOP ticket). Indeed, he nearly lost the 1976 nomination to Reagan so it was perhaps inevitable by 1980 Reagan would be the obvious choice.

    We'll never know whether Ford might have considered a 1984 run has Reagan lost in 1980 but for all his Presidency was short-lived and under the long shadow of Nixon and Watergate, I think history has been pretty kind to Gerald Ford.

    Before Ford, you had Herbert Hoover who lost to FDR in 1932. That ended a 12-year period of Republican control of the White House. Hoover remained a strong critic of FDR and the "New Deal" and, like Ford, was mentioned as a possible challenger in 1936 but stood aside - Alf Landon eventually got the nomination but was crushed in the General Election.

    Before Hoover, there was Taft who lost the 1912 election in extraordinary circumstances to Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt who split the Republicans and ran as a Progressive candidate.

    A better parallel might be Benjamin Harrison, who, as with Trump, lost the popular vote twice - in 1888 he won enough ECV to become President but in 1892 he was decisively defeated by Grover Cleveland.

    Ford also noteworthy for the management of the fall of Saigon, the ultimate American humiliation.

    I wonder if the last days of Kabul will see similar scenes?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890

    Schools in England are “bleeding out” with thousands of teachers having to isolate under a bubble system that is harming the most vulnerable children, ministers have been warned.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jul/04/schools-bleeding-out-covid-isolation-rules-headteachers-england

    I remember when the same people were all moaning that teaching kids was all far too risky and schools must be shut at all times....at the time, the government said it harms in particular vulnerable and poor kids.

    The rules are set by the government but in any case, the summer holidays start in a week or two so it is hard to get that excited.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Sean_F said:


    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    It's not a "choice" between those either.

    It's a choice between public and political policy aimed at improving how we live in terms of the provision of health care and wellbeing (both physical and mental) as against a purely economically driven policy agenda which prioritises wellbeing via material consumption and the accumulation of material possessions (houses, cars, phones and things).

    In essence, "how we live" is more important than "what we have".

    Perhaps if the coronavirus experience has taught us anything, it's that the accumulation of material possessions does not bring happiness or fulfilment and it is those more intangible aspects to wellbeing (including socialisation) that are more important. Public policy to encourage the latter would seem to be the way forward so less work and more "play"?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134
    edited July 2021
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.
    Indeed. But to assess all those things against each other - which is in practice impossible but for the sake of argument - you need to express everything in a common currency. So £ (since we have no other).

    A life worth £27k.
    Good health worth £13k.
    Sanity worth £16k.
    A social life worth £8k.
    Peace of mind worth £11k.
    Freedom of assembly £3k.

    Etc.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Nigelb said:

    Norris penalised for a near carbon copy of the move which Verstappen pulled on Leclerc two years ago.
    Absurd.

    Well Perez should be getting a penalty now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021

    Schools in England are “bleeding out” with thousands of teachers having to isolate under a bubble system that is harming the most vulnerable children, ministers have been warned.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jul/04/schools-bleeding-out-covid-isolation-rules-headteachers-england

    I remember when the same people were all moaning that teaching kids was all far too risky and schools must be shut at all times....at the time, the government said it harms in particular vulnerable and poor kids.

    The rules are set by the government but in any case, the summer holidays start in a week or two so it is hard to get that excited.
    Remember the teacher unions and head teachers were at one point saying they would disobey the government, because opening schools all too risky. Now they are complaining its all too harmful to have kids isolate, for exactly the reason the government said they really didn't want to go around closing schools.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,134

    kinabalu said:

    That polling question is more loaded than the fries at a New York bar.

    As if 'saving every life' versus 'protecting the economy' were the choice on offer. Its an utterly false choice.

    Ask any country that does not have a good economy.

    But you've written reams of stuff framing lockdown as sacrificing the economy for the sake of fewer virus casualties - ie there WAS a choice and we made the wrong one.
    Vaccinations have undoubtedly saved the lives of many vulnerable people, but I think its at least debatable whether hard lockdowns 'saved' lives at all. I believed they cost the lives of people suffering with non-covid afflications, and they will continue to do so for years to come.
    There's a respectable argument that the 'law vs guidance' equation here was too weighted to law - esp on household and private domain matters - but an approach of no law, all voluntary, 'just trust the people' would have been utter chaos and led to a worse outcome on almost all metrics. That's why no government in the developed democratic world went that way. Only despotic dictator types who could afford to be indifferent to their populations did that, or anything close.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    edited July 2021
    A lot of people don't seem to be aware that lives depend on the economy. Where do they think the money for the NHS comes from, for example?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,990
    Andy_JS said:

    A lot of people don't seem to be aware that lives depend on the economy. Where do they think the money for the NHS comes from, for example?

    Brexit. obvs...

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Andy_JS said:

    A lot of people don't seem to be aware that lives depend on the economy. Where do they think the money for the NHS comes from, for example?

    The Governor of the Bank of England.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    So I found out last night that furlough can be part-time. A friend is working three days a week (and having to work very hard for those three days) before being furloughed for the other two days.

    Ultimately people will say "yes, of course the government should prioritise lives above all else." This is a problem for the government, because they'll want to turn off the taps before it becomes obvious what a clusterfuck we're facing economically. Labour will gladly exploit this difficulty.

    Also, worth noting that the Ragin' Cajun is the hero of one Dominic Cummings.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890

    Schools in England are “bleeding out” with thousands of teachers having to isolate under a bubble system that is harming the most vulnerable children, ministers have been warned.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jul/04/schools-bleeding-out-covid-isolation-rules-headteachers-england

    I remember when the same people were all moaning that teaching kids was all far too risky and schools must be shut at all times....at the time, the government said it harms in particular vulnerable and poor kids.

    The rules are set by the government but in any case, the summer holidays start in a week or two so it is hard to get that excited.
    Remember the teacher unions and head teachers were at one point saying they would disobey the government, because opening schools all too risky. Now they are complaining its all too harmful to have kids isolate, for exactly the reason the government said they really didn't want to go around closing schools.
    I remember the government suing Greenwich to keep the schools open, and then closing them a day later.

    We are where we are because HMG is running two policies in parallel that do not quite fit. First, the government decided not to vaccinate schoolchildren because they did not become ill when infected. That's fine but when combined with aggressive testing and self-isolation in bubbles, this is what was bound to happen.

    But as I said, schools break up in a week or two and then there will be six weeks to think of some new rules.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,374

    Schools in England are “bleeding out” with thousands of teachers having to isolate under a bubble system that is harming the most vulnerable children, ministers have been warned.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jul/04/schools-bleeding-out-covid-isolation-rules-headteachers-england

    I remember when the same people were all moaning that teaching kids was all far too risky and schools must be shut at all times....at the time, the government said it harms in particular vulnerable and poor kids.

    The rules are set by the government but in any case, the summer holidays start in a week or two so it is hard to get that excited.
    Remember the teacher unions and head teachers were at one point saying they would disobey the government, because opening schools all too risky. Now they are complaining its all too harmful to have kids isolate, for exactly the reason the government said they really didn't want to go around closing schools.
    Because risk vectors change.

    I was the one urging earlier and harder lockdowns in the autumn, because it was obvious without that we’d have a catastrophe. And we did.

    But due to vaccines, that danger has been, if not eliminated, at least sufficiently diminished that we should be loosening restrictions. Especially given that the restrictions themselves are very onerous and one reason why schools were becoming totally unmanageable in the autumn. That hasn’t changed either, by the way.

    When the facts change, sensible people change their minds.

    But sadly there are no sensible people at the DfE.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Andy_JS said:

    A lot of people don't seem to be aware that lives depend on the economy. Where do they think the money for the NHS comes from, for example?

    Debt markets. And we probably won't have to pay it back because all governments are going to end up defaulting after this.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926
    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    Andy_JS said:

    A lot of people don't seem to be aware that lives depend on the economy. Where do they think the money for the NHS comes from, for example?

    Other people.

    Taxes on other people are like restrictions on other people ie popular.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    edited July 2021

    That polling question is more loaded than the fries at a New York bar.

    As if 'saving every life' versus 'protecting the economy' were the choice on offer. Its an utterly false choice.

    Ask any country that does not have a good economy.

    Actually I did the survey and thought the question was loaded the other way - EVERY life rather than the whole economy? People do die whatever you do, and conversely the economy doesn't collapse because of lockdown, as we've seen. The real choice is "preventing extensive suffering" vs "preventing the risk of an economic downturn".

    I agree with kinabalu that having common currency to discuss choices is healthy (it's the procedure adopted by NICE in judging whether new drugs should be available on the NHS). That would enable us to weigh up freedoms we think are important (right to change governments, £1 billion) ones that are nice to have (right to go to a crowded pub, £20) and ones that most of us don't care about (right not to have to carry a piece of paper to go to a crowded pub, £0.01). People who treat all freedom as indivisible and therefore of equal value tend not to be taken seriously.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Poor question. Most people would pick a point on a scale of trade-offs if they could be quantified properly.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,374
    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,819
    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    That may apply to many but far from all individuals, however it is absolutely no use to businesses who can't openly flout the rules and maintain licences and insurance, even ignoring potential fines. The law needs to change.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    COVID-19 Actuaries Response Group
    @COVID19actuary
    ·
    14m
    Replying to
    @COVID19actuary
    The average age of COVID admission has decreased by around 20 years! It fell from 66 in mid-February to 46 in late June).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Quite a bit I should think. There's widespread flouting, but a lot are still adhering to restrictions at least partially.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,374

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    That may apply to many but far from all individuals, however it is absolutely no use to businesses who can't openly flout the rules and maintain licences and insurance, even ignoring potential fines. The law needs to change.
    True, but it’s not there where the greatest spread happens.

    It’s offices that may be the problem - but equally, they may not be going back yet. And schools, but in two/three weeks they break up.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    Wait until the 55% hear about QUALYs.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,890
    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    That may apply to many but far from all individuals, however it is absolutely no use to businesses who can't openly flout the rules and maintain licences and insurance, even ignoring potential fines. The law needs to change.
    True, but it’s not there where the greatest spread happens.

    It’s offices that may be the problem - but equally, they may not be going back yet. And schools, but in two/three weeks they break up.
    Public transport as well with Mask restrictions likely to be lifted.

    I'm still going to wear mine for some time yet.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.
    Indeed. But to assess all those things against each other - which is in practice impossible but for the sake of argument - you need to express everything in a common currency. So £ (since we have no other).

    A life worth £27k.
    Good health worth £13k.
    Sanity worth £16k.
    A social life worth £8k.
    Peace of mind worth £11k.
    Freedom of assembly £3k.

    Etc.
    Where would brexiters put sovereignty in that list and at what value?

    :smile:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,374

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.
    Indeed. But to assess all those things against each other - which is in practice impossible but for the sake of argument - you need to express everything in a common currency. So £ (since we have no other).

    A life worth £27k.
    Good health worth £13k.
    Sanity worth £16k.
    A social life worth £8k.
    Peace of mind worth £11k.
    Freedom of assembly £3k.

    Etc.
    Where would brexiters put sovereignty in that list and at what value?

    :smile:
    Didn't Osborne tell us the value during the campaign?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,496
    At least 14% of the sample realised that the question was not rationally answerable, while 9% went for the nearly as respectable Don't Know. Interesting that in this case the young were wiser than the old and the LDs were wiser than the rest.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.
    Indeed. But to assess all those things against each other - which is in practice impossible but for the sake of argument - you need to express everything in a common currency. So £ (since we have no other).

    A life worth £27k.
    Good health worth £13k.
    Sanity worth £16k.
    A social life worth £8k.
    Peace of mind worth £11k.
    Freedom of assembly £3k.

    Etc.
    Where would brexiters put sovereignty in that list and at what value?

    :smile:
    Didn't Osborne tell us the value during the campaign?
    Did he?, what did he say?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    I think a question like this would be better with a sliding scale. You have 10 priority points, how many do you give to the economy, and how many do you give to preventing deaths due to Covid?

    That said, I think it's a false choice. There was always going to be a horrendous amount of short-term economic damage, because many people would have avoided discretionary activities that put them at risk of infection. One advantage of a government imposing restrictions should have been that it would have instilled more confidence in the general public that things were safe when those restrictions were removed.

    However, until this spring and summer - when the risk balance has finally reversed - the government failed to instil this confidence in many people, as its decisions were to prioritise the economy over public health, right up to the brim of NHS capacity (and I think a bit beyond this last winter).
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Quite a bit I should think. There's widespread flouting, but a lot are still adhering to restrictions at least partially.
    Given the large effect that we've seen from the Scottish football events, it implies that there must still be a large degree of caution among the population as a whole, otherwise events like that wouldn't show up in the figures.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,926

    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.
    Indeed. But to assess all those things against each other - which is in practice impossible but for the sake of argument - you need to express everything in a common currency. So £ (since we have no other).

    A life worth £27k.
    Good health worth £13k.
    Sanity worth £16k.
    A social life worth £8k.
    Peace of mind worth £11k.
    Freedom of assembly £3k.

    Etc.
    Where would brexiters put sovereignty in that list and at what value?

    :smile:
    Didn't Osborne tell us the value during the campaign?
    Did he?, what did he say?
    The cost of Brexit, was a few thousand pounds per taxpayer.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638

    kinabalu said:

    That polling question is more loaded than the fries at a New York bar.

    As if 'saving every life' versus 'protecting the economy' were the choice on offer. Its an utterly false choice.

    Ask any country that does not have a good economy.

    But you've written reams of stuff framing lockdown as sacrificing the economy for the sake of fewer virus casualties - ie there WAS a choice and we made the wrong one.
    Vaccinations have undoubtedly saved the lives of many vulnerable people, but I think its at least debatable whether hard lockdowns 'saved' lives at all. I believed they cost the lives of people suffering with non-covid afflications, and they will continue to do so for years to come.
    I think though that the choice was not between no lockdown and normal service. The massive impact on the NHS was from a combination of factors, and would have happened whatever went on with pubs or mask mandates.

    Quite scary figures here from the British Journal of Anaesthesia:

    3/ This represents the cancellation or postponement of ~1.5 million surgical procedures due to the pandemic. We estimate that by the end of 2021 there will be a backlog of ~2.4 million surgical procedures in England and Wales. https://t.co/NmiTMSwPdv https://t.co/yjOa4EcCLP

    https://twitter.com/_tomabbott/status/1405791198942482433?s=19
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,759
    Scott_xP said:
    This must rank as one of the weakest stories ever published. If I've not attended drinks parties with Attila the Hun I'd be surprised - at least that's the way some of them have seemed.

    I really like drinks parties, but not so much the ones I actually get invited to.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: stewards a bit too trigger happy with penalties, I think.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,638
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Absolutely tipping it down here, by the way.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: stewards a bit too trigger happy with penalties, I think.

    A *bit*? I think they've all got out of bed on the wrong side.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Mr. Pioneers, they made a dumb decision early on and then had to repeatedly dish out similar. It's a shame.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,374
    edited July 2021
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Yes, but how many people are using those? If they had been standard and widely available throughout the pandemic things might be very different.

    For myself, I’m keeping my cloth masks to wear when cycling in cold weather. The others - never again.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Mr. Pioneers, they made a dumb decision early on and then had to repeatedly dish out similar. It's a shame.

    It was funny to think of Christian Horner screaming for Norris to get a penalty, then 20 minutes later arguing that a carbon copy of the incident was perfectly fine.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited July 2021
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Does this necessarily help in the long run, though? Consider: we've reached the point as a society where we consider the costs of restrictions to outweigh the benefits - and are perfectly willing to allow case rates to explode. Moreover, given the very high transmissibility of the virus, the effective herd immunity rate for vaccinations and infections may be somewhere close to 100%. This suggests that, unless individuals are willing either to live in hermetically sealed bubbles for the remainder of their lives or are very, very lucky, they are going to be exposed to the disease eventually.

    In short, taking extra precautions might delay when you catch Plague, but are unlikely to prevent it.

    I seem to recall that, back when this all started, Sir Patrick Vallance suggested that pretty much everyone would catch Covid-19 eventually. Perhaps he was right?

    In other news: just announced on radio that Wimbledon will be operating at 100% capacity for Centre and No.1 Courts from the quarter-finals onwards. First instance of full capacity being permitted at large sports stadia since the start of the pandemic.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Mr. Sandpit, Horner said it was just one of those things (Norris and Perez). I think one of us is misremembering, it sounded to me like he wasn't really calling for a penalty at all.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Yes, but how many people are using those? If they had been standard and widely available throughout the pandemic things might be very different.

    For myself, I’m keeping my cloth masks to wear when cycling in cold weather. The others - never again.
    I have never even heard of a FFP3 mask! I suspect I’m not alone in that…
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    stodge said:

    BREAKING: #Wimbledon's centre and No 1 courts will feature maximum capacity crowds for the quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals - meaning they will be the first full outdoor stadiums at a sporting event in the UK since the coronavirus pandemic began.

    https://twitter.com/SkySportsNews/status/1411672253935280129

    Why can't we have capacity crowds at next weekend's horse race meetings at Newmarket, Ascot, York and Chester? For some reason, Wimbledon seems to be the only event that matters (and some football match in North-West London I believe).
    Silverstone are getting a full crowd in a fortnight - 140,000 for the race on Sunday, which will be the biggest ticketed crowd in the UK since the same event in 2019.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    Mr. Sandpit, Horner said it was just one of those things (Norris and Perez). I think one of us is misremembering, it sounded to me like he wasn't really calling for a penalty at all.

    He was being his usual two-faced self, saying one thing to the TV crew and something very different to the race director.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Yes, but how many people are using those? If they had been standard and widely available throughout the pandemic things might be very different.

    For myself, I’m keeping my cloth masks to wear when cycling in cold weather. The others - never again.
    I have never even heard of a FFP3 mask! I suspect I’m not alone in that…
    It’s what you’d wear if you work in a sawmill, or paint cars for a living. Not normally used medically, except when there’s a pandemic on!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Yes, but how many people are using those? If they had been standard and widely available throughout the pandemic things might be very different.

    For myself, I’m keeping my cloth masks to wear when cycling in cold weather. The others - never again.
    I absolutely loathe the bloody things and am very keen to get rid of them. I do hope the government comes up with a sensible, effective recycling scheme because these things are horrific landfill fodder.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,485
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Yes, but how many people are using those? If they had been standard and widely available throughout the pandemic things might be very different.

    For myself, I’m keeping my cloth masks to wear when cycling in cold weather. The others - never again.
    I have never even heard of a FFP3 mask! I suspect I’m not alone in that…
    It’s what you’d wear if you work in a sawmill, or paint cars for a living. Not normally used medically, except when there’s a pandemic on!
    In which case I probably have them in my shed (I use masks for woodwork - I just didn’t know they were called that!)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,070
    .

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: stewards a bit too trigger happy with penalties, I think.

    A *bit*? I think they've all got out of bed on the wrong side.
    Derek Warwick - not unexpected.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Yes, but how many people are using those? If they had been standard and widely available throughout the pandemic things might be very different.

    For myself, I’m keeping my cloth masks to wear when cycling in cold weather. The others - never again.
    I had no issue getting them. You can get them from anybody who provides H&S equipment for trades.

    e.g. https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop?query=ffp3&flag=1

    There was a period of maybe 2 months where there was a wait, but since last summer no real issue.

    I got a respirator style one where you can easily change the filters, and the filters aren't very expensive. All widely used in things like paint spraying.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,631
    Well I am shocked.

    30 years ago Andrew Neil used his paper to make up bullshit about HIV and AIDS. Apparently hasn't learnt a thing.

    Anti-vax tweet from GB News featuring anti-scientific diatribe from Neil Oliver labelled as misleading by @Twitter

    https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1411702849051021324
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited July 2021

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Yes, but how many people are using those? If they had been standard and widely available throughout the pandemic things might be very different.

    For myself, I’m keeping my cloth masks to wear when cycling in cold weather. The others - never again.
    I have never even heard of a FFP3 mask! I suspect I’m not alone in that…
    It’s what you’d wear if you work in a sawmill, or paint cars for a living. Not normally used medically, except when there’s a pandemic on!
    In which case I probably have them in my shed (I use masks for woodwork - I just didn’t know they were called that!)
    Looks like this. One step up from the more common N95. Nose piece and adjustable straps, for a tight fit.


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Mr. Sandpit, I'll take your word for it.

    The biter bit, if so.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,011
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Aslan said:

    RobD said:

    Aslan said:

    Sean_F said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    It's not just a choice between deaths and money however. It's a choice between deaths, livelihoods, wellbeing, and human socialisation.

    This is a false choice. Until we reach herd immunity (or at least sufficient protection to stop death rates exponentially accelerating), it's a choice between more deaths and a long period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization, and fewer deaths and the same period of harmed mental health, wellbeing and socialization.

    It's pretty clear the current generations would never have made it through the war.
    We're at that point already thanks to vaccination.
    I don't think we are there quite yet, but we will see what happens to death rates after the 19th.
    How much difference would looser official restrictions make, given how widely they are being flouted now?

    There seems a reasonable chance that those who want to protect themselves are doing so and everyone else is at the Arkell v Pressdram stage anyway.
    Except they are not. If it is true that wearing masks protects other people, not the wearer, then people not wearing masks are putting others at risk, not themselves. What we need, or will need in any future lockdown, is far more clarity about what precautions are effective, and to ditch the theatre.
    Well, we now have ample evidence that they do *not* protect the wearer in case of prolonged indoor contact. So they seem unlikely to be of significant use on say, public transport.

    But they may still be of value in shops.

    The only thing to say against it is I see no evidence of infection rates falling after they started to be widely used - that said, proving a negative is very hard work.
    I am taking an FFP3 mask when I next go down to London to wear on the tube. They really do protect the wearer. Other places should be less risky.
    Yes, but how many people are using those? If they had been standard and widely available throughout the pandemic things might be very different.

    For myself, I’m keeping my cloth masks to wear when cycling in cold weather. The others - never again.
    I have never even heard of a FFP3 mask! I suspect I’m not alone in that…
    It’s what you’d wear if you work in a sawmill, or paint cars for a living. Not normally used medically, except when there’s a pandemic on!
    In which case I probably have them in my shed (I use masks for woodwork - I just didn’t know they were called that!)
    Looks like this. One step up from the more common N95. Nose piece and adjustable straps, for a tight fit.


    The only time I wore an FFP3 mask was when I went for my first jab. The riskiest thing I'd done for a year.

    AsI said yesterday. I've now switched from the N95 to a scarf.
This discussion has been closed.