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Why lockdown scepticism doesn’t resonate much with the voters – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083

    Why would a good news story be embargoed and who makes these decisions?

    Wills and Kate?

    Boris and Carrie's second baby?
    If he's as financially insecure as some people suggest, that might just finish him off as PM.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited July 2021

    Why would a good news story be embargoed and who makes these decisions?

    Wills and Kate?

    The NHS getting the GC is on most of the front pages.
    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/
    Oh good lord...

    I forget whether the last 15 months was about theNHS saving the country, or the country saving the NHS.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    alex_ said:

    Why would a good news story be embargoed and who makes these decisions?

    Wills and Kate?

    The NHS getting the GC is on most of the front pages.
    https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/
    Oh good lord...
    That's the real reason Matt Hancock had to go. Not enough room on his NHS badge to add GC as well.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    edited July 2021
    kle4 said:

    Why would a good news story be embargoed and who makes these decisions?

    Wills and Kate?

    Boris and Carrie's second baby?
    If he's as financially insecure as some people suggest, that might just finish him off as PM.
    Have you seen the cost of nappies? I was "conned" into paying for the shopping of a couple of lady beggars the other week, and was doing all right until the nappies went in the basket. £9 a packet.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    Miami building to be brought down before the hurricane.
    A dreadfully sad decision. But probably the only feasible one.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2021
    "@BritainElects

    2019 Labour voters / "Do you agree or disagree that ‘woke’ practices have gone too far?"

    Agree: 52%
    Disagree: 24%

    via @RedfieldWilton, 24 Jun

    [59% of Labour's base know what "woke" means. Doesn't stop 76% having an opinion on it.]

    More: https://newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2021/07/exclusive-polling-labour-party-s-base-isn-t-woke-you-think"

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1411696293106405385
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    "@BritainElects

    2019 Labour voters / "Do you agree or disagree that ‘woke’ practices have gone too far?"

    Agree: 52%
    Disagree: 24%

    via @RedfieldWilton, 24 Jun

    [59% of Labour's base know what "woke" means. Doesn't stop 76% having an opinion on it.]

    More: https://newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2021/07/exclusive-polling-labour-party-s-base-isn-t-woke-you-think"

    Ben Walker (Mr Britain Elects) talked about this on his stream on Thursday, that the activists are way out of touch with Labour voters on these issues.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    Israel COVID update: Biggest one-day increase since April 5

    - New cases: 321
    - Average: 297 (+36)
    - In hospital: 63 (+5)
    - In ICU: 17 (-)
    - New deaths: 0

    Population vaccinated:
    - 1st dose: 60.71% (+0.19)
    - 2nd dose: 55.68% (+0.03)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    The NHS does this all the time. They have to decide whether a very expensive treatment is justified or not, because funds are not unlimited. People prefer not to talk about it most of the time, which is understandable.
    Oh yes, absolutely. Because resources are finite. And by the way, NICE - for whom arriving at this sort of decision is their raison d'etre - is one of our most successful conceptual exports.

    I disagree wholly with @kinabalu here. I don't find it heartening at all. I want a public who know that the value of life is more than just not dying. Who will - whether by calculation or instinct - know that the risk to life in walking Striding Edge, in climbing Snowdon, in sailing the Sea of the Hebrides, in getting lost in the euphoria of a sweaty club; in joining the chorus in your church or your stadium of choice, in socialising heartily, carelessly; in falling in love; in cherishing your family; in bringing life and opportunity to your children and grnadchildren; in doing whatever it is that proves you ALIVE is worth it in comparison to counting off another day safe at home without dying. I want a public who sees their own safety as a consideration, not a guiding principle. I don't want to get to 90 and find I've never actually lived a day.

    There's a time and a place for safety. Let's slow traffic down so we don't imperil the lives of those working beside them. Let's make sure our ships are adequately stashed with lifeboats. But let us not let safety prevent us from living.
    That's a great post - a real hymn to life, and inspiring to read.

    There is a complication, though - risk-takers are taking risks not just for themselves but for everyone they encounter. How does one know whether the random stranger one's infected shares one's NICE preferences?

    In the end, we have to let the Government of the day decide how much risky interaction to allow, as we don't have another realistic way of doing it. For that reason, I'd accept a decision to relax the rules, or tighten them, depending on the best available advice *and* the Government's impression of what we collectively want. But "we'll leave it your common sense" is a cowardly choice if that's how it turns out, putting us all at the risk of whoever is the most carefree/reckless - it's exactly like abolishing speed limits and leaving it to "the good sense of drivers".
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,665
    edited July 2021
    RobD said:
    It "went up and down a bit and hovered for 10 seconds before zooming off".

    Have we found the legendary Gatwick UAV...?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,793

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    The NHS does this all the time. They have to decide whether a very expensive treatment is justified or not, because funds are not unlimited. People prefer not to talk about it most of the time, which is understandable.
    Oh yes, absolutely. Because resources are finite. And by the way, NICE - for whom arriving at this sort of decision is their raison d'etre - is one of our most successful conceptual exports.

    I disagree wholly with @kinabalu here. I don't find it heartening at all. I want a public who know that the value of life is more than just not dying. Who will - whether by calculation or instinct - know that the risk to life in walking Striding Edge, in climbing Snowdon, in sailing the Sea of the Hebrides, in getting lost in the euphoria of a sweaty club; in joining the chorus in your church or your stadium of choice, in socialising heartily, carelessly; in falling in love; in cherishing your family; in bringing life and opportunity to your children and grnadchildren; in doing whatever it is that proves you ALIVE is worth it in comparison to counting off another day safe at home without dying. I want a public who sees their own safety as a consideration, not a guiding principle. I don't want to get to 90 and find I've never actually lived a day.

    There's a time and a place for safety. Let's slow traffic down so we don't imperil the lives of those working beside them. Let's make sure our ships are adequately stashed with lifeboats. But let us not let safety prevent us from living.
    That's a great post - a real hymn to life, and inspiring to read.

    There is a complication, though - risk-takers are taking risks not just for themselves but for everyone they encounter. How does one know whether the random stranger one's infected shares one's NICE preferences?

    In the end, we have to let the Government of the day decide how much risky interaction to allow, as we don't have another realistic way of doing it. For that reason, I'd accept a decision to relax the rules, or tighten them, depending on the best available advice *and* the Government's impression of what we collectively want. But "we'll leave it your common sense" is a cowardly choice if that's how it turns out, putting us all at the risk of whoever is the most carefree/reckless - it's exactly like abolishing speed limits and leaving it to "the good sense of drivers".
    Yes, I do take that point - the risk is a collective one. I would argue that it is a risk we need to embrace collectively, in order that collectively we can live. And I don't think the government has any choice but to leave it to common sense - you posted earlier today about the absurdity of the government advising us to cuddle cautiously.

    I don't think the harms to quality of life of the speed limit being in place outweigh the health benefits of having them*. I do think the harms to quality of life - and to other things, like the economy, and liberal democtratic norms like freedom of assembly - of the current restrictions - all of them - outweigh the health benefits in having them. Now, I actually took this poistion back in March 2020, although I erred in back then in not properly taking into account the harms to health from the NHS potentially being overrun with covid - but now we are mostly vaccinated and all have been offered it, I would argue the choice is even more clear cut.

    *Well I suppose I would argue that speed limits in some specific locations are too low for the benefits to be worth the harms. But I am in favour of the principle of speed limits and in favour of them being obeyed and enforced.
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 319
    NHS GC. What insane insulting nonsense is this?
  • GnudGnud Posts: 298
    edited July 2021
    If amber list requirements are relaxed I hope this applies to everybody who enters Britain (legally) from an amber country, not just British citizens and residents.

    Apart from anything else, central London might then come alive again. Circulation between Britain and the rest of Europe is a much missed part of life.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    franklyn said:

    NHS GC. What insane insulting nonsense is this?

    It is a cheap gimmick which costs nothing, patronises public and health workers, and devalues the award for every prior holder.

    The George Cross (GC) is the highest award bestowed by the British government for non-operational gallantry or gallantry not in the presence of an enemy. In the UK honours system, the George Cross is equal in stature to the Victoria Cross, the highest military gallantry award. This has been the case since the introduction of the award in 1940. It is awarded "for acts of the greatest heroism or for most conspicuous courage in circumstance of extreme danger", not in the presence of the enemy, to members of the British armed forces and to British civilians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited July 2021
    Showery rain today according to the BBC weather.
    If you count a cataclysmic Asian style thunderstorm at 4pm followed by 6 hours of heavy rain as a shower I suppose.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    On topic, the voters hate freedom.

    This is the most important thing about British politics and you're not going to understand what's going on unless you get it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited July 2021

    franklyn said:

    NHS GC. What insane insulting nonsense is this?

    It is a cheap gimmick which costs nothing, patronises public and health workers, and devalues the award for every prior holder.

    The George Cross (GC) is the highest award bestowed by the British government for non-operational gallantry or gallantry not in the presence of an enemy. In the UK honours system, the George Cross is equal in stature to the Victoria Cross, the highest military gallantry award. This has been the case since the introduction of the award in 1940. It is awarded "for acts of the greatest heroism or for most conspicuous courage in circumstance of extreme danger", not in the presence of the enemy, to members of the British armed forces and to British civilians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross
    Woke virtue signalling.
    Except the right doesn't do that.
    Does not compute.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928

    RobD said:
    It "went up and down a bit and hovered for 10 seconds before zooming off".

    Have we found the legendary Gatwick UAV...?
    As I said, sounds like a mirage of a ship. Zooming off could it simply disappearing from view as it goes over the horizon.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    Roger said:

    I suspect most people would prefer a stark raving bonkers Biden than Trump
    Konstantin Chernenko was far from the worst leader the Soviet Union ever had - being dead for his entire premiership causes people to underestimate his contribution.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    NHS GC. What insane insulting nonsense is this?

    It is a cheap gimmick which costs nothing, patronises public and health workers, and devalues the award for every prior holder.

    The George Cross (GC) is the highest award bestowed by the British government for non-operational gallantry or gallantry not in the presence of an enemy. In the UK honours system, the George Cross is equal in stature to the Victoria Cross, the highest military gallantry award. This has been the case since the introduction of the award in 1940. It is awarded "for acts of the greatest heroism or for most conspicuous courage in circumstance of extreme danger", not in the presence of the enemy, to members of the British armed forces and to British civilians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross
    Woke virtue signalling.
    Except the right doesn't do that.
    Does not compute.
    Virtue signalling has always taken place on left and right.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,255
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    stodge said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Good header - good reminder. I do find this polling surprising - I would not have guessed such strong support for restrictions but it has been remarkably consistent.

    It's support for prioritising life over economic growth - nothing to do with "restrictions".

    I want the current restrictions to be eased but I like the idea people value life more than economic prosperity because it changes or re-frames the national debate and priorities.
    I agree. It's irrational that the public sign up to a sentiment like "one Covid death is one too many" but it's at the same time heartening. Who wants a public who can and do weigh up the value of a human life, objectively and dispassionately, and arrive at the correct answer of £27,000? - Not me.
    The NHS does this all the time. They have to decide whether a very expensive treatment is justified or not, because funds are not unlimited. People prefer not to talk about it most of the time, which is understandable.
    Oh yes, absolutely. Because resources are finite. And by the way, NICE - for whom arriving at this sort of decision is their raison d'etre - is one of our most successful conceptual exports.

    I disagree wholly with @kinabalu here. I don't find it heartening at all. I want a public who know that the value of life is more than just not dying. Who will - whether by calculation or instinct - know that the risk to life in walking Striding Edge, in climbing Snowdon, in sailing the Sea of the Hebrides, in getting lost in the euphoria of a sweaty club; in joining the chorus in your church or your stadium of choice, in socialising heartily, carelessly; in falling in love; in cherishing your family; in bringing life and opportunity to your children and grnadchildren; in doing whatever it is that proves you ALIVE is worth it in comparison to counting off another day safe at home without dying. I want a public who sees their own safety as a consideration, not a guiding principle. I don't want to get to 90 and find I've never actually lived a day.

    There's a time and a place for safety. Let's slow traffic down so we don't imperil the lives of those working beside them. Let's make sure our ships are adequately stashed with lifeboats. But let us not let safety prevent us from living.
    That's a great post - a real hymn to life, and inspiring to read.

    There is a complication, though - risk-takers are taking risks not just for themselves but for everyone they encounter. How does one know whether the random stranger one's infected shares one's NICE preferences?

    In the end, we have to let the Government of the day decide how much risky interaction to allow, as we don't have another realistic way of doing it. For that reason, I'd accept a decision to relax the rules, or tighten them, depending on the best available advice *and* the Government's impression of what we collectively want. But "we'll leave it your common sense" is a cowardly choice if that's how it turns out, putting us all at the risk of whoever is the most carefree/reckless - it's exactly like abolishing speed limits and leaving it to "the good sense of drivers".
    Yes, I do take that point - the risk is a collective one. I would argue that it is a risk we need to embrace collectively, in order that collectively we can live. And I don't think the government has any choice but to leave it to common sense - you posted earlier today about the absurdity of the government advising us to cuddle cautiously.

    I don't think the harms to quality of life of the speed limit being in place outweigh the health benefits of having them*. I do think the harms to quality of life - and to other things, like the economy, and liberal democtratic norms like freedom of assembly - of the current restrictions - all of them - outweigh the health benefits in having them. Now, I actually took this poistion back in March 2020, although I erred in back then in not properly taking into account the harms to health from the NHS potentially being overrun with covid - but now we are mostly vaccinated and all have been offered it, I would argue the choice is even more clear cut.

    *Well I suppose I would argue that speed limits in some specific locations are too low for the benefits to be worth the harms. But I am in favour of the principle of speed limits and in favour of them being obeyed and enforced.
    It might be of interest to consider that the latest in urban design (pioneered by the Dutch, IIRC) is to remove street markings etc, forcing drivers to interact with their surroundings using their judgement, rather than blindly obey the signage.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,665
    edited July 2021
    RobD said:

    RobD said:
    It "went up and down a bit and hovered for 10 seconds before zooming off".

    Have we found the legendary Gatwick UAV...?
    As I said, sounds like a mirage of a ship. Zooming off could it simply disappearing from view as it goes over the horizon.
    It could be, but only seeing it for 10 seconds seems a bit odd if it was a ship. If you believe the verbal account, of course.

    What it actually looks like is the reflection of some internal lighting.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    MikeL said:


    Harris still favourite for the nomination at 3.2 vs Biden 3.55.

    Unless somebody has inside information this is ridiculous, nobody gives up a job like that unless they have to and on available information Biden is currently healthy. It has to be greater than a 50/50 chance that he'll run again, and if he doesn't there has to be at least a 25% chance that somebody snaffles the nomination off her.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928

    RobD said:

    RobD said:
    It "went up and down a bit and hovered for 10 seconds before zooming off".

    Have we found the legendary Gatwick UAV...?
    As I said, sounds like a mirage of a ship. Zooming off could it simply disappearing from view as it goes over the horizon.
    It could be, but only seeing it for 10 seconds seems a bit odd if it was a ship. If you believe the verbal account, of course.

    What it actually looks like is the reflection of some internal lighting.
    I suppose there is no reason you can't have a mirage only last for a few seconds.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    edited July 2021
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    NHS GC. What insane insulting nonsense is this?

    It is a cheap gimmick which costs nothing, patronises public and health workers, and devalues the award for every prior holder.

    The George Cross (GC) is the highest award bestowed by the British government for non-operational gallantry or gallantry not in the presence of an enemy. In the UK honours system, the George Cross is equal in stature to the Victoria Cross, the highest military gallantry award. This has been the case since the introduction of the award in 1940. It is awarded "for acts of the greatest heroism or for most conspicuous courage in circumstance of extreme danger", not in the presence of the enemy, to members of the British armed forces and to British civilians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross
    Woke virtue signalling.
    Except the right doesn't do that.
    Does not compute.
    Virtue signalling has always taken place on left and right.
    Absolutely spot on.
    I was being sarcastic.
    Nevertheless, you're on board. Keep making the point, and everyone may eventually get it.
    Is it woke? Or not?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401
    So what is the Daily Mail good news embargoed story then?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,357
    dixiedean said:

    So what is the Daily Mail good news embargoed story then?

    I think it's just the George Cross for the NHS. Such an ineffective embargo that we didn't notice it had been broken?
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,665
    edited July 2021
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:
    It "went up and down a bit and hovered for 10 seconds before zooming off".

    Have we found the legendary Gatwick UAV...?
    As I said, sounds like a mirage of a ship. Zooming off could it simply disappearing from view as it goes over the horizon.
    It could be, but only seeing it for 10 seconds seems a bit odd if it was a ship. If you believe the verbal account, of course.

    What it actually looks like is the reflection of some internal lighting.
    I suppose there is no reason you can't have a mirage only last for a few seconds.
    Mirages usually occur in stable weather conditions, although they do vary over time. The distortion of the horizon with a Fata Morgana is usually obvious, though, unlike in this image.

    Whatever actually happened, I suppose it paid for a week of student fees...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,401

    dixiedean said:

    So what is the Daily Mail good news embargoed story then?

    I think it's just the George Cross for the NHS. Such an ineffective embargo that we didn't notice it had been broken?
    Wasn't worth staying woke for.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928
    edited July 2021

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:
    It "went up and down a bit and hovered for 10 seconds before zooming off".

    Have we found the legendary Gatwick UAV...?
    As I said, sounds like a mirage of a ship. Zooming off could it simply disappearing from view as it goes over the horizon.
    It could be, but only seeing it for 10 seconds seems a bit odd if it was a ship. If you believe the verbal account, of course.

    What it actually looks like is the reflection of some internal lighting.
    I suppose there is no reason you can't have a mirage only last for a few seconds.
    Mirages usually occur in stable weather conditions, although they do vary over time. The distortion of the horizon with a Fata Morgana is usually obvious, though, unlike in this image.

    Whatever actually happened, I suppose it paid for a week of student fees...
    The distortion isn't obvious because you are looking at a few points on the ship (the lights) rather than the whole thing, and you are only seeing a couple of images. You can see the change in the distribution of light between the images in the article.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153
    Pro_Rata said:

    Hospital Covid patient watch:

    Bedfordshire: Admissions and total patients flat for about the last month, at less than 10% of the January peak; ventilation beds negligible.

    Bolton: Admissions, total patients and ventilation beds all had two peaks (late May and early June.) Patients peaked at about a third of levels in January, ventilation beds were closer to previous peaks but the total number was low, at about a dozen. All three indicators now in steady decline for the last few weeks.

    East Lancashire (covers Blackburn): Hospital admissions peaked at about 10% of the January peak in mid-June, hospital patients at 20% and ventilation beds at about 40%. Admissions running broadly flat in the high single-figures per day, other indicators have declined.

    Manchester: Admissions broadly flat since mid-June and running at about a third of January peak. Hospital patient total about a third of January peak, rate of increase has slowed since mid-June and may be levelling off. Ventilation beds at about half of January peak (20 at last known date) and may still be rising gradually.

    Leeds: Patient total has tripled, from a very low base, in the last month and is now at just shy of 10% of the November peak. Admissions in low single figures and either flat or increasing slightly. Ventilation beds negligible.

    Scotland: Still increasing, daily admissions currently running at about 30% of January peak, total hospital patients at about 15%, ventilation beds flat or rising marginally.

    Wales: Ventilation beds negligible, admissions very low and possibly falling, hospital patient total constant at about 40 (2% of January peak) for the past month.

    London: Admissions broadly flat at less than 5% of the daily rate for the January peak; possible signs of a slight increase in the most recent numbers but too soon to tell. Total patient count up by only about 100 over the whole of the last month and still at less than 5% of January peak. Ventilation beds approximately doubled in the last month but still at only just over 5% of January peak.

    Cornwall: Patients at about 10% of January peak, admissions and ventilation beds too low to discern a definite trend.

    And in my neck of the woods...

    Cambridge: three patients in hospital, numbers all at or close to zero since May.

    Overall, if Delta is going to cricket bat the NHS then there is precious little sign of it.

    Good summary. To add, Bolton cases peak in June was about 80% of the November peak and pretty close to January one. Early days in the development of Leeds outbreak (which is very recent, initially studenty and in the rapid growth phase) and for the next Scottish tick up (which, and my they hide their MSOA data well, looked rather unstudenty), but no reason to think they should contradict what we've already seen.

    The question is, given we're already seeing another kick of 70% per week case rises, and that further unlockdown will charge that further, what is the worst we can get to. We may have rebased cases to deaths over the last few months but, in the very short term, you'd have to still assume that a further eight fold increase in cases* would drive a near eight fold increase in Hospitalisations and deaths per the new base.

    * you presumably end up at herd immunity fairly quickly, but with opening up totally, and a fair percentage not fully protected, peaking at 3% of the population getting COVID in a week at peak doesn't sound outlandish.
    Albeit the schools are about to close, and vaccinations are continuing, which together should limit how bad it gets.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pro_Rata said:

    Hospital Covid patient watch:

    Bedfordshire: Admissions and total patients flat for about the last month, at less than 10% of the January peak; ventilation beds negligible.

    Bolton: Admissions, total patients and ventilation beds all had two peaks (late May and early June.) Patients peaked at about a third of levels in January, ventilation beds were closer to previous peaks but the total number was low, at about a dozen. All three indicators now in steady decline for the last few weeks.

    East Lancashire (covers Blackburn): Hospital admissions peaked at about 10% of the January peak in mid-June, hospital patients at 20% and ventilation beds at about 40%. Admissions running broadly flat in the high single-figures per day, other indicators have declined.

    Manchester: Admissions broadly flat since mid-June and running at about a third of January peak. Hospital patient total about a third of January peak, rate of increase has slowed since mid-June and may be levelling off. Ventilation beds at about half of January peak (20 at last known date) and may still be rising gradually.

    Leeds: Patient total has tripled, from a very low base, in the last month and is now at just shy of 10% of the November peak. Admissions in low single figures and either flat or increasing slightly. Ventilation beds negligible.

    Scotland: Still increasing, daily admissions currently running at about 30% of January peak, total hospital patients at about 15%, ventilation beds flat or rising marginally.

    Wales: Ventilation beds negligible, admissions very low and possibly falling, hospital patient total constant at about 40 (2% of January peak) for the past month.

    London: Admissions broadly flat at less than 5% of the daily rate for the January peak; possible signs of a slight increase in the most recent numbers but too soon to tell. Total patient count up by only about 100 over the whole of the last month and still at less than 5% of January peak. Ventilation beds approximately doubled in the last month but still at only just over 5% of January peak.

    Cornwall: Patients at about 10% of January peak, admissions and ventilation beds too low to discern a definite trend.

    And in my neck of the woods...

    Cambridge: three patients in hospital, numbers all at or close to zero since May.

    Overall, if Delta is going to cricket bat the NHS then there is precious little sign of it.

    Good summary. To add, Bolton cases peak in June was about 80% of the November peak and pretty close to January one. Early days in the development of Leeds outbreak (which is very recent, initially studenty and in the rapid growth phase) and for the next Scottish tick up (which, and my they hide their MSOA data well, looked rather unstudenty), but no reason to think they should contradict what we've already seen.

    The question is, given we're already seeing another kick of 70% per week case rises, and that further unlockdown will charge that further, what is the worst we can get to. We may have rebased cases to deaths over the last few months but, in the very short term, you'd have to still assume that a further eight fold increase in cases* would drive a near eight fold increase in Hospitalisations and deaths per the new base.

    * you presumably end up at herd immunity fairly quickly, but with opening up totally, and a fair percentage not fully protected, peaking at 3% of the population getting COVID in a week at peak doesn't sound outlandish.
    Cases don't matter though, its hospitalisations and deaths that are the big issue. If the case post-vaccination is asymptomatic or trivial symptoms then who cares?

    In-hospital figures in Bolton peaked at less than a third of the November and January peak.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2021
    A surprising article to find in the pages of the centrist magazine UnHerd.

    "How the Democrats fell for Mussolini
    America's elite has adopted his fascist dream of a corporate oligarchy
    BY JOEL KOTKIN"

    https://unherd.com/2021/07/how-the-democrats-fell-for-mussolini/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,894
    Andy_JS said:

    A surprising article to find in the pages of the centrist magazine UnHerd.

    "How the Democrats fell for Mussolini
    America's elite has adopted his fascist dream of a corporate oligarchy
    BY JOEL KOTKIN"

    https://unherd.com/2021/07/how-the-democrats-fell-for-mussolini/

    It is late and I am tired but I can't see what the rise of global tech companies has to do with the Democratic Party or what are the parallels with China.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/30/matt-cartoons-july-2021/

    The 4 cartoons just from July are better than basically all other cartoonists efforts for the whole year.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    Star Wars goes Japanese Anime....for Disney+

    https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1411452190045229062?s=19
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,153

    Israel COVID update: Biggest one-day increase since April 5

    - New cases: 321
    - Average: 297 (+36)
    - In hospital: 63 (+5)
    - In ICU: 17 (-)
    - New deaths: 0

    Population vaccinated:
    - 1st dose: 60.71% (+0.19)
    - 2nd dose: 55.68% (+0.03)

    Israel is fascinating: pre-Delta they had vaccinated enough of the population to essentially eliminate Covid.

    With Delta, you are now seeing its resurgence - albeit growth is constrained by relatively high levels of vaccine uptake.

    There’s another interesting thing: vaccination rates are now ticking up again in Israel - which tells us that people are reacting to the emergence of Delta.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    rcs1000 said:

    Israel COVID update: Biggest one-day increase since April 5

    - New cases: 321
    - Average: 297 (+36)
    - In hospital: 63 (+5)
    - In ICU: 17 (-)
    - New deaths: 0

    Population vaccinated:
    - 1st dose: 60.71% (+0.19)
    - 2nd dose: 55.68% (+0.03)

    Israel is fascinating: pre-Delta they had vaccinated enough of the population to essentially eliminate Covid.

    With Delta, you are now seeing its resurgence - albeit growth is constrained by relatively high levels of vaccine uptake.

    There’s another interesting thing: vaccination rates are now ticking up again in Israel - which tells us that people are reacting to the emergence of Delta.
    I believe a large proportion of cases are kids. Be interesting to know how much of the rest are unvaxxed.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    Radio Five Live's late night phone-in show is full of callers saying they're going to carry on wearing masks and practising social distancing after 19th July.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Radio Five Live's late night phone-in show is full of callers saying they're going to carry on wearing masks and practising social distancing after 19th July.

    I think on public transport a very sensible idea.

    I have always wondered (no idea how much research there has been) how dangerous say a supermarket or other shops are. Lots of foot traffic but you don't usually stand in a close big crowd for extended periods.

    Are they more dangerous than a pub or restaurant or the gym?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2021

    Andy_JS said:

    Radio Five Live's late night phone-in show is full of callers saying they're going to carry on wearing masks and practising social distancing after 19th July.

    I think on public transport a very sensible idea.

    I have always wondered (no idea how much research there has been) how dangerous say a supermarket or other shops are. Lots of foot traffic but you don't usually stand in a close big crowd for extended periods.

    Are they more dangerous than a pub or restaurant or the gym?

    Not sure.

    On masks, I suppose I might consider wearing one on a very busy train where you're standing about an inch away from other people. But otherwise, probably not.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited July 2021
    John Ashworth - "Letting cases rise with no action means further pressure on the NHS, more sickness, disruption to education - and risks a new variant emerging with a selection advantage," he warned.

    Not sure this is going to be a popular message among some posters on here

    As with so much of Labour response during this pandemic, what exact measures do they want? All well and good giving thay soundbite, but what specific practical measures / level of continues restrictions do they support? Or are they just vaguely going to complain about people being asked to use common sense.

    Continued mandated mask wearing on public transport to me doesn't seem too much. But is it just performative vs being able to go to the pub and mingle? I don't know.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2021

    John Ashworth - "Letting cases rise with no action means further pressure on the NHS, more sickness, disruption to education - and risks a new variant emerging with a selection advantage," he warned.

    Not sure this is going to be a popular message among some posters on here

    As with so much of Labour response during this pandemic, what exact measures do they want? All well and good giving thay soundbite, but what specific practical measures / level of continues restrictions do they support? Or are they just vaguely going to complain about people being asked to use common sense.

    Continued mandated mask wearing on public transport to me doesn't seem too much. But is it just performative vs being able to go to the pub and mingle? I don't know.

    I think the government has made the right decision in leaving it up to individuals. The most recent YouGov polls showed 58% of the public agrees with their decision to open up on 19th July IIRC.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    NHS GC. What insane insulting nonsense is this?

    It is a cheap gimmick which costs nothing, patronises public and health workers, and devalues the award for every prior holder.

    The George Cross (GC) is the highest award bestowed by the British government for non-operational gallantry or gallantry not in the presence of an enemy. In the UK honours system, the George Cross is equal in stature to the Victoria Cross, the highest military gallantry award. This has been the case since the introduction of the award in 1940. It is awarded "for acts of the greatest heroism or for most conspicuous courage in circumstance of extreme danger", not in the presence of the enemy, to members of the British armed forces and to British civilians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross
    Woke virtue signalling.
    Except the right doesn't do that.
    Does not compute.
    Virtue signalling has always taken place on left and right.
    Point of order: signalling, for sure, but from the right surely it would by necessity be of some other attribute?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,557
    edited July 2021
    kle4 said:

    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    NHS GC. What insane insulting nonsense is this?

    It is a cheap gimmick which costs nothing, patronises public and health workers, and devalues the award for every prior holder.

    The George Cross (GC) is the highest award bestowed by the British government for non-operational gallantry or gallantry not in the presence of an enemy. In the UK honours system, the George Cross is equal in stature to the Victoria Cross, the highest military gallantry award. This has been the case since the introduction of the award in 1940. It is awarded "for acts of the greatest heroism or for most conspicuous courage in circumstance of extreme danger", not in the presence of the enemy, to members of the British armed forces and to British civilians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Cross
    Woke virtue signalling.
    Except the right doesn't do that.
    Does not compute.
    Virtue signalling has always taken place on left and right.
    It has but it used to be a lot less prominent.
  • After 18 months of scaremongering and doom-mongering, some of which in the early waves had some truth, the tide has now turned. In Javid and Sunak we have a powerful axis of numerate people. They understand the data and that we now need to get back to life and learn to live with covid. It will take time to shift a paranoid nation who have been beaten into simpering, cowering, wrecks. Some will never recover mentally from the scarring, just as the war years left an indelible scar on an entire generation.

    Best thing you can do? Switch off the news. Stop reading about covid. Don't cheer NHS staff. Get back to normal life.

    Hancock's affair is the best thing to have happened to the UK this year.
  • https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/07/04/javid-sunak-will-defeat-lockdown-doom-mongers/

    Great piece.

    Paywall but you can get 3 months for £1 (and then cancel).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,860

    After 18 months of scaremongering and doom-mongering, some of which in the early waves had some truth, the tide has now turned. In Javid and Sunak we have a powerful axis of numerate people. They understand the data and that we now need to get back to life and learn to live with covid. It will take time to shift a paranoid nation who have been beaten into simpering, cowering, wrecks. Some will never recover mentally from the scarring, just as the war years left an indelible scar on an entire generation.

    Best thing you can do? Switch off the news. Stop reading about covid. Don't cheer NHS staff. Get back to normal life.

    Hancock's affair is the best thing to have happened to the UK this year.

    I agree that Hancock going is very likely to be good news; Javid is not the most inspiring public figure but hopefully has the common sense and judgement to be able to make a difference.

    The sadness is that it would appear - from Cummings’s evidence and the leaked comments from politicians - that Hancock’s failings were already appreciated within the government inner circle, yet nothing was going to be done until one of his own staff decided to pass some CCTV footage to The Sun.
This discussion has been closed.