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The man who refused to be a sub to Dom is back in the cabinet – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited June 2021 in General
The man who refused to be a sub to Dom is back in the cabinet – politicalbetting.com

PM appoints former chancellor Sajid Javid as new health secretary https://t.co/nx7ySTmsPX

Read the full story here

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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,577
    edited June 2021
    Regarding the Social Care side of his former ministry, in his resignation letter Matt Hancock cited "'The reforms we have started in the health system" and stated that "we will fix the problems in social care once and for all."

    So apparently all his successor need to is follow the policies, planning and trail already blazed under Hancock's watch. Heck, even yours truly could do that!

    May the spirit and wisdom of Lord Woolton guide Sajid Javid as head of DHSC.

    I say this sincerely. because somehow I doubt that the problems of social care are unlikely to be solved definitively and permanently under the premiership of Boris Johnson. Even IF he was Winston Churchill and Clement Attlee combined.

    EDIT - First in bore, first in place, last in the hearts of his fellow PBers . . .
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    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,577
    Re the colorful nature of the current HMG frontbench, reckon this is one of the great unsung success stories in British politics and society. Beyond individual achievement, a success for their families, communities, the Conservative Party and the whole freaking somewhat occasionally United Kingdom.
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    Tell it not in Gath but coloured people can be nasty too.
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    Arguably the biggest problem facing the Conservatives (and the country) is that Boris Johnson is carrying over his approach to personal finances into the public arena. Even occasionally blurring the two.

    We are on a spending splurge. Andrew Neil has brilliantly commented that the Government's credit card may have to be taken away.

    It's not just a splurge. It's a chaotic one. There's no consistency or strategy to the levelling up process and vanity projects - that thing beloved of Johnson - are to the fore. Remember that this is the guy who wanted to build a brand new London airport in the Thames estuary. He loves to spend, spend, spend.

    It's disastrous for Britain finances.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/26/rishi-sunak-must-confiscate-governments-credit-card-say-tory/
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    pingping Posts: 3,731

    Arguably the biggest problem facing the Conservatives (and the country) is that Boris Johnson is carrying over his approach to personal finances into the public arena. Even occasionally blurring the two.

    We are on a spending splurge. Andrew Neil has brilliantly commented that the Government's credit card may have to be taken away.

    It's not just a splurge. It's a chaotic one. There's no consistency or strategy to the levelling up process and vanity projects - that thing beloved of Johnson - are to the fore. Remember that this is the guy who wanted to build a brand new London airport in the Thames estuary. He loves to spend, spend, spend.

    It's disastrous for Britain finances.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/26/rishi-sunak-must-confiscate-governments-credit-card-say-tory/

    Telegraph wants an end to levelling up?

    What a surprise.
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    Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited June 2021
    ping said:

    Arguably the biggest problem facing the Conservatives (and the country) is that Boris Johnson is carrying over his approach to personal finances into the public arena. Even occasionally blurring the two.

    We are on a spending splurge. Andrew Neil has brilliantly commented that the Government's credit card may have to be taken away.

    It's not just a splurge. It's a chaotic one. There's no consistency or strategy to the levelling up process and vanity projects - that thing beloved of Johnson - are to the fore. Remember that this is the guy who wanted to build a brand new London airport in the Thames estuary. He loves to spend, spend, spend.

    It's disastrous for Britain finances.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/26/rishi-sunak-must-confiscate-governments-credit-card-say-tory/

    Telegraph wants an end to levelling up?

    What a surprise.
    I don't think that's a very smart response. It's about the spending splurge. The country's finances are in a parlous state.

    I'm not sure left-right comes into it, except to note that this is (in some ways) the most leftwing Government of my lifetime. Nationalisation, statism, high spending, plans to build all over the southern green belt, vanity projects, higher business taxes and a raid on people's pensions.

    By 2025, we will have three million more higher rate taxpayers than in 2010. Corporation tax is heading to its highest level since 1989. The tax burden is rising to its highest since the Sixties. Our debt is at its highest since the early Sixties. And, according to last week's ONS figures, borrowing in the year to March (as a percentage of GDP) has reached a level last seen in the Second World War.

    And The Guardian, Sun and Evening Standard have all written about these problems in recent days and probably others too.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/21/social-care-royal-yacht-battle-looms-uk-spending-priorities
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/five-years-brexit-vote-better-off-b942161.html
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15363925/rishi-sunak-britains-debt-2-2trillion/

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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Ken Clarke was scathing about the governments attitude to spending, just last week.

    Meanwhile I see that the Handycock camera footage was regular office CCTV with the footage having been obtained by a disgruntled employee of the department who saw him or herself as a whistleblower.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: bit groggy but Tsunoda, at the moment, doesn't appear to have a penalty for impeding Bottas. Mildly surprised. Will peruse the markets for things worth backing.

    Been thinking of trying to alter my strategy sometimes, and go for more tips with lower stakes. May or may not do that today.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: bit groggy but Tsunoda, at the moment, doesn't appear to have a penalty for impeding Bottas. Mildly surprised. Will peruse the markets for things worth backing.

    Been thinking of trying to alter my strategy sometimes, and go for more tips with lower stakes. May or may not do that today.

    The market is basically 8/13 Verstappen; 2/1 Hamilton; 20/1 bar. Or 62% Verstappen; 33% Hamilton. If you can rule out one or both of those, that is a huge chunk of the market gone, with massive value somewhere else.

    If.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,896

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: bit groggy but Tsunoda, at the moment, doesn't appear to have a penalty for impeding Bottas. Mildly surprised. Will peruse the markets for things worth backing.

    Been thinking of trying to alter my strategy sometimes, and go for more tips with lower stakes. May or may not do that today.

    Err, yes he does. Three place drop, he starts 11th, and Goerge Russell 10th.

    https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2021 Styrian Grand Prix - Offence - Car 22 - impeding car 77.pdf
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Sandpit, cheers for that correction.

    Mr. JohnL, be very brave to rule one of them out.

    If they collided and took one another out on lap 1 I'd probably put Bottas favourite.

    Incidentally, Ladbrokes doesn't have each way for the winner, which is a shade disappointing. I suppose it's a reaction to last year's Hamilton dominance becoming a top 2 dominance.
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    Speaking of collisions that spectator-induced TdF crash yesterday was pretty shocking. She was looking in the direction of the camera and not at the riders.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/15402370/tour-de-france-chaos-as-massive-crash-caused-by-a-fan-wipes-out-half-of-the-peloton/?rec_article=true
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374
    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    To the extent Jews are an ethnic minority, yes, but that is a controversial question in the Jewish community. It might be easier just to say they were Jewish, and fudge whether that means by religion, ethnicity or community. Disraeli was our first (and only) Jewish Prime Minister, but he regarded himself as Anglican. His family was Jewish, but his family was also Italian and no-one says Disraeli was Britain's first Italian Prime Minister.
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    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    Interesting, isn't it, how this piece ignores Jewish immigrants in favour of ones who, presumably, look a bit more properly coloured up.

    Just another variety of anti-semitism going on here? The subtext of it buys into the notion that they're not as deserving of the (vomit-inducing) smug self congratulations because they must have money hoarded away somewhere. Let's parade our son of a Pakistani bus driver rather than those whose families are sitting on mountains of Rothschild gold. (Neatly ignoring the fact that in reality many of them had narrowly escaped the concentrations camps.)

    It takes me back to that hideous old bat Anne Widdecombe and her clearly anti-semitic attack on Michael Howard. He apparently had 'something of the night' about him. Naked anti-semitism. He was portrayed on at least one front page as a Fagin figure. I'm just surprised they didn't go the whole hog and picture him drinking the blood of virgins before returning to his casket at dawn.




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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited June 2021
    Betting Post

    F1: You'll never guess how many tips I offer for this race!

    Unless you guess five, of course.

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2021/06/styria-pre-race-2021.html

    Edited extra bit:
    Gasly to win group 1 (Leclerc, Ricciardo, Alonso) at 2.3
    Vettel to win group 2 (Sainz, Stroll, Tsunoda) at 4.5
    Winner without the big 4, Norris at 1.53
    Over 17.5 classified finishers, 2.5
    Russell points, 2.25
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    Interesting, isn't it, how this piece ignores Jewish immigrants in favour of ones who, presumably, look a bit more properly coloured up.

    Just another variety of anti-semitism going on here? The subtext of it buys into the notion that they're not as deserving of the (vomit-inducing) smug self congratulations because they must have money hoarded away somewhere. Let's parade our son of a Pakistani bus driver rather than those whose families are sitting on mountains of Rothschild gold. (Neatly ignoring the fact that in reality many of them had narrowly escaped the concentrations camps.)

    It takes me back to that hideous old bat Anne Widdecombe and her clearly anti-semitic attack on Michael Howard. He apparently had 'something of the night' about him. Naked anti-semitism. He was portrayed on at least one front page as a Fagin figure. I'm just surprised they didn't go the whole hog and picture him drinking the blood of virgins before returning to his casket at dawn.




    The fagin figure stuff was from Labour ads. No doubt it played well in the likes of Batley and Spen.

    Re Javid - I think a good appointment and a fair and well-balanced header - is someone impersonating TSE today? :smiley:
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    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    Disraeli was our first (and only) Jewish Prime Minister, but he regarded himself as Anglican. His family was Jewish, but his family was also Italian and no-one says Disraeli was Britain's first Italian Prime Minister.
    And Javid is a non-practising Muslim.

    The real problem with this piece is that it mentions the issue at all. It's a can of worms which TSE doesn't appear sufficiently sensitive to tackle.

    And frankly I really hope we don't go the direction of the US on race. Once the card is played it's very difficult to un-play it.
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    pingping Posts: 3,731
    edited June 2021
    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    I agree he’s a shit for the way he treated his wife and kids, but that’s a trifle unfair!

    That’s the problem with being a shit. You get blamed for anything and everything, however unfairly. Pile on!
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    Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited June 2021
    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    Interesting, isn't it, how this piece ignores Jewish immigrants in favour of ones who, presumably, look a bit more properly coloured up.

    Just another variety of anti-semitism going on here? The subtext of it buys into the notion that they're not as deserving of the (vomit-inducing) smug self congratulations because they must have money hoarded away somewhere. Let's parade our son of a Pakistani bus driver rather than those whose families are sitting on mountains of Rothschild gold. (Neatly ignoring the fact that in reality many of them had narrowly escaped the concentrations camps.)

    It takes me back to that hideous old bat Anne Widdecombe and her clearly anti-semitic attack on Michael Howard. He apparently had 'something of the night' about him. Naked anti-semitism. He was portrayed on at least one front page as a Fagin figure. I'm just surprised they didn't go the whole hog and picture him drinking the blood of virgins before returning to his casket at dawn.




    The fagin figure stuff was from Labour ads. No doubt it played well in the likes of Batley and Spen.

    Re Javid - I think a good appointment
    Agree about Javid.

    And you're quite right about the Fagin and pig posters. Alastair Campbell was behind them.

    I think Ann Widdecombe set the idea in motion though with her 'something of the night' remarks.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231

    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    To the extent Jews are an ethnic minority, yes, but that is a controversial question in the Jewish community. It might be easier just to say they were Jewish, and fudge whether that means by religion, ethnicity or community. Disraeli was our first (and only) Jewish Prime Minister, but he regarded himself as Anglican. His family was Jewish, but his family was also Italian and no-one says Disraeli was Britain's first Italian Prime Minister.
    He was also quite happy to call himself a Jew when he wished, as when he withered Daniel O’Connell for his anti-Semitic remarks by commenting ‘when your ancestors were painted blue with woad, mine were priests in the Temples of Solomon.’
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    Christ - that's horrible.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    IanB2 said:

    ping said:

    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    I agree he’s a shit for the way he treated his wife and kids, but that’s a trifle unfair!
    My money is on the affair having gone on for years. The ‘started in May’ line is just a desperate attempt to head off concerns around the appointment.
    Mine too.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374

    Speaking of collisions that spectator-induced TdF crash yesterday was pretty shocking. She was looking in the direction of the camera and not at the riders.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/15402370/tour-de-france-chaos-as-massive-crash-caused-by-a-fan-wipes-out-half-of-the-peloton/?rec_article=true

    So far as I can make out, the fan was not watching the race; the cyclists were not watching the race; the commentators were not watching the race. So it is a remarkable achievement of the cycling lobby to have scored so many SPotY wins.

    The sign said, in a mixture of French and German, Go Granny & Grandad (Allez Opi Omi). At least the fan can be pretty sure her grandparents will have seen her greeting, so job done!
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited June 2021
    It is actually notable that the U.K. has had a several Jewish heritage PMs or party leaders now.

    Compare with the USA and its unending line of WASPs (bar Kennedy) until Obama.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    If I was a Tory (which thank the Lord I'm not sir....) I wouldn't be worried about deckchairs on the Titanic but the monster of a loose cannon that's bouncing all over the ship.

    Boris Johnson doesn't appear to have any idea what he signed up to when he entered his Faustian pact making him Prime Minister and Dominic Cummings the most powerful man in the land.

    They call him Rasputin but that doesn't do him justice. To sell Brexit to 52% of a population against the forces of government parliament academia business and the media makes him a genius that not even the greatest minds could match.

    This is not a person any sane man would cross. This is Anton Chigurth in No Country for Old Men. A man who gets his man.

    Good luck Boris.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    IanB2 said:

    ping said:

    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    I agree he’s a shit for the way he treated his wife and kids, but that’s a trifle unfair!
    My money is on the affair having gone on for years. The ‘started in May’ line is just a desperate attempt to head off concerns around the appointment.
    This is probably why he resigned.
    I’m doing so he ends the story.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    Ouch. What a revolting human being.

    Not that that’s much of a surprise.

    He’s going to be eaten alive in the divorce, isn’t he?

    Could well force him to leave the Commons in search of financial sustenance elsewhere. Might be value in betting on a West Suffolk by election.

    Should be an easy Tory hold if there is though.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Iain Duncan Smith was, famously, slightly Japanese; and Boris much more famously, Turk-ish.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231

    It is actually notable that the U.K. has had a several Jewish heritage PMs or party leaders now.

    Compare with the USA and its unending line of WASPs (bar Kennedy) until Obama.

    Still only one Jewish PM. But several party leaders.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    Are we counting @SeanT as one person or about 50?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    The picture of the press surrounding Hancock's wife made me feel very uncomfortable.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    ydoethur said:

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    Are we counting @SeanT as one person or about 50?
    It’s possible that SeanT skews the *country’s* statistics, let alone PB’s.

    Oh those pre-woke days when he would rhapsodise about pubescent Thai courtesans.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    edited June 2021
    Good morning everyone. We appear to have light rain this morning which could well put the kibosh on my plans for lawn mowing later today.

    One feature about the appointment of Javid is that there's now someone in the Cabinet who doesn't owe Dominic Cummings anything. At all.

    Ed. Does though give SJ the opportunity for revenge.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    As alluded to on the other thread, that is what makes this seem so unsatisfactory, and also undermines any claim of whistleblowing. Matt Hancock was brought down by an on-camera snog. Not because he caused thousands of deaths in care homes, or wasted billions on a failed track and trace system, or possible corruption in no-bid contracts. Nor do we give him credit for the vaccination programme.

    It is worse than nailing Al Capone for not paying income tax. Lots of people have affairs at work, often shortlived. Many employers have rules about it. Many families break up. These things are commonplace.

    Boris's instinct was that Matt's dalliance with Gina did not matter. He was wrong about that, but probably right that it *should* not have mattered.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995

    Good morning everyone. We appear to have light rain this morning which could well put the kibosh on my plans for lawn mowing later today.

    One feature about the appointment of Javid is that there's now someone in the Cabinet who doesn't owe Dominic Cummings anything. At all.

    And has no vested interest in the long term survival of Johnson.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    edited June 2021

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    As alluded to on the other thread, that is what makes this seem so unsatisfactory, and also undermines any claim of whistleblowing. Matt Hancock was brought down by an on-camera snog. Not because he caused thousands of deaths in care homes, or wasted billions on a failed track and trace system, or possible corruption in no-bid contracts. Nor do we give him credit for the vaccination programme.

    It is worse than nailing Al Capone for not paying income tax. Lots of people have affairs at work, often shortlived. Many employers have rules about it. Many families break up. These things are commonplace.

    Boris's instinct was that Matt's dalliance with Gina did not matter. He was wrong about that, but probably right that it *should* not have mattered.
    Family lunch yesterday. Among those present was a senior NHS manager, who opined that in the NHS Hancock and his lady-friend's conduct would have been categorised as 'gross misconduct'.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning everyone. We appear to have light rain this morning which could well put the kibosh on my plans for lawn mowing later today.

    One feature about the appointment of Javid is that there's now someone in the Cabinet who doesn't owe Dominic Cummings anything. At all.

    And has no vested interest in the long term survival of Johnson.
    Indeed; if anything, the opposite.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Javid presumably moves back into the next leader sweepstakes.

    The list of papabiles is actually quite long now.

    Rishi
    Patel
    Truss
    Hunt
    Javid
    Gove
    Raab

    I don’t think the latter two have a chance, but both probably still harbour ambitions.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    Ouch. What a revolting human being.

    Not that that’s much of a surprise.

    He’s going to be eaten alive in the divorce, isn’t he?

    Could well force him to leave the Commons in search of financial sustenance elsewhere. Might be value in betting on a West Suffolk by election.

    Should be an easy Tory hold if there is though.
    Boris got away with it.
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    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,349
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    Ouch. What a revolting human being.

    Not that that’s much of a surprise.

    He’s going to be eaten alive in the divorce, isn’t he?

    Could well force him to leave the Commons in search of financial sustenance elsewhere. Might be value in betting on a West Suffolk by election.

    Should be an easy Tory hold if there is though.
    I thought blame was irrelevant in divorce....
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    Support for Scottish independence has slipped in recent months, according to a poll that suggests Yes voters would fall short of a majority if a referendum were held tomorrow.

    The findings of a Panelbase poll carried out for The Sunday Times indicates that, excluding “don’t knows”, 48 per cent would back independence, down four points since April when support for breaking up the Union stood at 52 per cent. Support for the Union in today’s poll is 52 per cent, up four points.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/support-for-secession-falls-since-may-election-pd2vjtqbg

    Canny Scottish electorate - keep Westminster on their toes by returning SNP administrations, keep Holyrood on its toes by prevaricating over independence. They have both where they want them.
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977
    I think Javid is a capable minister - the fact Cummings has gone off on one over it convinced me further it is the right choice
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    edited June 2021

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    As alluded to on the other thread, that is what makes this seem so unsatisfactory, and also undermines any claim of whistleblowing. Matt Hancock was brought down by an on-camera snog. Not because he caused thousands of deaths in care homes, or wasted billions on a failed track and trace system, or possible corruption in no-bid contracts. Nor do we give him credit for the vaccination programme.

    It is worse than nailing Al Capone for not paying income tax. Lots of people have affairs at work, often shortlived. Many employers have rules about it. Many families break up. These things are commonplace.

    Boris's instinct was that Matt's dalliance with Gina did not matter. He was wrong about that, but probably right that it *should* not have mattered.
    Family lunch yesterday. Among those present was a senior NHS manager, who opined that in the NHS Hancock and his lady-friend's conduct would have been categorised as 'gross misconduct'.
    Agreed. Misconduct, and seriously gross.

    Although that said, on every level this is much less serious than the care homes Covid disaster, or indeed the DfE/DoH guidance to schools.
  • Options
    borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188

    Javid presumably moves back into the next leader sweepstakes.

    The list of papabiles is actually quite long now.

    Rishi
    Patel
    Truss
    Hunt
    Javid
    Gove
    Raab

    I don’t think the latter two have a chance, but both probably still harbour ambitions.

    Raab obviously too palefaced for consideration by TSE, but also the child of an immigrant (his jewish father was evacuated from Czechoslovakia in 1938)
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    I suspect that's what did for him on the backbenches and in their constituencies ' "foolish fling and need time to heal with my family" could have seen him either hang on or after a time on the back benches return to front line politics - he's now finished for good.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    Ouch. What a revolting human being.

    Not that that’s much of a surprise.

    He’s going to be eaten alive in the divorce, isn’t he?

    Could well force him to leave the Commons in search of financial sustenance elsewhere. Might be value in betting on a West Suffolk by election.

    Should be an easy Tory hold if there is though.
    I thought blame was irrelevant in divorce....
    It will be the financial settlement for the care of 3 school age children and the mother looking after them which will cost.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    Interesting, isn't it, how this piece ignores Jewish immigrants in favour of ones who, presumably, look a bit more properly coloured up.

    Just another variety of anti-semitism going on here? The subtext of it buys into the notion that they're not as deserving of the (vomit-inducing) smug self congratulations because they must have money hoarded away somewhere. Let's parade our son of a Pakistani bus driver rather than those whose families are sitting on mountains of Rothschild gold. (Neatly ignoring the fact that in reality many of them had narrowly escaped the concentrations camps.)

    It takes me back to that hideous old bat Anne Widdecombe and her clearly anti-semitic attack on Michael Howard. He apparently had 'something of the night' about him. Naked anti-semitism. He was portrayed on at least one front page as a Fagin figure. I'm just surprised they didn't go the whole hog and picture him drinking the blood of virgins before returning to his casket at dawn.




    The fagin figure stuff was from Labour ads. No doubt it played well in the likes of Batley and Spen.

    Re Javid - I think a good appointment
    Agree about Javid.

    And you're quite right about the Fagin and pig posters. Alastair Campbell was behind them.

    I think Ann Widdecombe set the idea in motion though with her 'something of the night' remarks.
    The thing about anti-semitism is that I think it is so ingrained in the human psyche that many people end up being anti-Semitic without even realising it. There is obviously often a bit of a link between “Jewish/Semitic features” and a perception of shiftiness/“something of the night” call it what you like. I realised this when I first saw a picture of Disraeli at the National Gallery when I was young (before I knew his background). I made some sort of comment along the above lines, and a friend I was with pulled me up on it.

    It is the reason I think why Fagin tropes and the like can be so devastating - they can be both produced and/or responded to without one or either party consciously making the Jewish connection as they do so. Obviously because of this, this is why it is so important for it to be called out at every opportunity.

    In some ways I think it makes a justification for the complete banning of Oliver Twist from television (or a number of other “kids favourites” which include similar characters eg Chitty chitty bang bang - the child catcher).
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,731
    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Yeah, I think he’s overrated, too.

    Still, he has to be in with a decent shot at the leadership given how well liked he is on the backbenches.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    Learnt a new detail about Hancock.

    The man is a grade A shit

    https://twitter.com/callumjodwyer/status/1408915831996747786?s=19

    Sorry I gave you a chronic illness, I'm leaving you.

    Ouch. What a revolting human being.

    Not that that’s much of a surprise.

    He’s going to be eaten alive in the divorce, isn’t he?

    Could well force him to leave the Commons in search of financial sustenance elsewhere. Might be value in betting on a West Suffolk by election.

    Should be an easy Tory hold if there is though.
    I thought blame was irrelevant in divorce....
    It will be the financial settlement for the care of 3 school age children and the mother looking after them which will cost.
    You’re a lawyer, not me, but I thought if one party was unable to work as a result of the marriage that was also taken into account.

    Which would certainly seem to be the case here given her illness.

    Is that no longer the case?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    alex_ said:

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    Interesting, isn't it, how this piece ignores Jewish immigrants in favour of ones who, presumably, look a bit more properly coloured up.

    Just another variety of anti-semitism going on here? The subtext of it buys into the notion that they're not as deserving of the (vomit-inducing) smug self congratulations because they must have money hoarded away somewhere. Let's parade our son of a Pakistani bus driver rather than those whose families are sitting on mountains of Rothschild gold. (Neatly ignoring the fact that in reality many of them had narrowly escaped the concentrations camps.)

    It takes me back to that hideous old bat Anne Widdecombe and her clearly anti-semitic attack on Michael Howard. He apparently had 'something of the night' about him. Naked anti-semitism. He was portrayed on at least one front page as a Fagin figure. I'm just surprised they didn't go the whole hog and picture him drinking the blood of virgins before returning to his casket at dawn.




    The fagin figure stuff was from Labour ads. No doubt it played well in the likes of Batley and Spen.

    Re Javid - I think a good appointment
    Agree about Javid.

    And you're quite right about the Fagin and pig posters. Alastair Campbell was behind them.

    I think Ann Widdecombe set the idea in motion though with her 'something of the night' remarks.
    The thing about anti-semitism is that I think it is so ingrained in the human psyche that many people end up being anti-Semitic without even realising it. There is obviously often a bit of a link between “Jewish/Semitic features” and a perception of shiftiness/“something of the night” call it what you like. I realised this when I first saw a picture of Disraeli at the National Gallery when I was young (before I knew his background). I made some sort of comment along the above lines, and a friend I was with pulled me up on it.

    It is the reason I think why Fagin tropes and the like can be so devastating - they can be both produced and/or responded to without one or either party consciously making the Jewish connection as they do so. Obviously because of this, this is why it is so important for it to be called out at every opportunity.

    In some ways I think it makes a justification for the complete banning of Oliver Twist from television (or a number of other “kids favourites” which include similar characters eg Chitty chitty bang bang - the child catcher).
    The 1948 Oliver Twist film was banned from the USA for that reason and only ever shown in heavily edited versions before the ban was lifted in 1970.

    Meanwhile, in Egypt it was banned because it showed Jews in far too sympathetic a light.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995

    Javid presumably moves back into the next leader sweepstakes.

    The list of papabiles is actually quite long now.

    Rishi
    Patel
    Truss
    Hunt
    Javid
    Gove
    Raab

    I don’t think the latter two have a chance, but both probably still harbour ambitions.

    Rishi and Patel are greedy and essentially evil enough to be tory leader but they may be discounted because of their comically short statures.

    Truss is like the nation's permanently angry first wife.

    Hunt is too remainy for the tories and looks like the result of a human/rat gene splicing experiment in a Wuhan lab.

    Looks like Javid vs Gove vs Raab.

    But you forget 𝕋ℍ𝔼 𝕆𝕌𝕋𝕊𝕀𝔻𝔼ℝ.


  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
  • Options
    borisatsunborisatsun Posts: 188
    edited June 2021
    Lib Dems right on the button..

    Liberal Democrats @LibDems 3m

    From the PPE scandal, the crisis in our care service and the unbelievably poor test and trace system, he has utterly failed. It is time for the Health Secretary to go.
    https://twitter.com/LibDems/status/1409044072304721921
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Lib Dems right on the button..

    Liberal Democrats @LibDems 3m

    From the PPE scandal, the crisis in our care service and the unbelievably poor test and trace system, he has utterly failed. It is time for the Health Secretary to go.
    https://twitter.com/LibDems/status/1409044072304721921

    So no credit for the vaccines then?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    alex_ said:
    Oops.

    I would say it’s as well the person contacted the Beeb and not the Russian Embassy, but I wonder why they didn’t contact the MoD or the police?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    edited June 2021
    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Yeah, I think he’s overrated, too.

    Still, he has to be in with a decent shot at the leadership given how well liked he is on the backbenches.
    A bit empty in my view. But then he's an ex-Deutsche Bank banker so my view is a bit skewed. Such people featured quite regularly in my list of people needing investigation.

    Still, he's probably politically in a strong position now. Odd that Boris didn't promote Zawahi or Argar. They'd have owed him. Javid doesn't.
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    As alluded to on the other thread, that is what makes this seem so unsatisfactory, and also undermines any claim of whistleblowing. Matt Hancock was brought down by an on-camera snog. Not because he caused thousands of deaths in care homes, or wasted billions on a failed track and trace system, or possible corruption in no-bid contracts. Nor do we give him credit for the vaccination programme.

    It is worse than nailing Al Capone for not paying income tax. Lots of people have affairs at work, often shortlived. Many employers have rules about it. Many families break up. These things are commonplace.

    Boris's instinct was that Matt's dalliance with Gina did not matter. He was wrong about that, but probably right that it *should* not have mattered.
    Nah - he went becasue he broke his own rules - hypocrites can never stay. Never make rules for others you personally cannot obey
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    Took me a while to remember who was between Brown and Corbyn 😜
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Yeah, I think he’s overrated, too.

    Still, he has to be in with a decent shot at the leadership given how well liked he is on the backbenches.
    A bit empty in my view. But then he's an ex-Deutsche Bank banker so my view is a bit skewed. Such people featured quite regularly in my list of people needing investigation.

    Still, he's probably politically in a strong position now. Odd that Boris didn't promote Zawahi or Argar. They'd have owed him. Javid doesn't.
    Not sure that’s how Johnson’s mind works tbh. In fact i wouldn’t be surprised if one of his advisers actually suggested to him as a point in Javid’s favour. I don’t think he does much more detailed thinking beyond the end of next week. Which is typical of pathological liners/charlatans. Anything to get a good/avoid a ban headline now
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,185
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:
    Oops.

    I would say it’s as well the person contacted the Beeb and not the Russian Embassy, but I wonder why they didn’t contact the MoD or the police?
    You don’t really wonder do you? It’s the gotcha mentality, in this case getting member of the public playing a role in getting the story out.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    Cyclefree said:

    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Yeah, I think he’s overrated, too.

    Still, he has to be in with a decent shot at the leadership given how well liked he is on the backbenches.
    A bit empty in my view. But then he's an ex-Deutsche Bank banker so my view is a bit skewed. Such people featured quite regularly in my list of people needing investigation.

    Still, he's probably politically in a strong position now. Odd that Boris didn't promote Zawahi or Argar. They'd have owed him. Javid doesn't.
    Promote those two and you create a further vacancy. That then needs filling. Which means more confusion.

    Better to stick to one simple change given a couple of candidates were available.

    Much the same logic that led Thatcher to make Pym foreign Secretary, despite hating his guts, when Carrington resigned.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    As alluded to on the other thread, that is what makes this seem so unsatisfactory, and also undermines any claim of whistleblowing. Matt Hancock was brought down by an on-camera snog. Not because he caused thousands of deaths in care homes, or wasted billions on a failed track and trace system, or possible corruption in no-bid contracts. Nor do we give him credit for the vaccination programme.

    It is worse than nailing Al Capone for not paying income tax. Lots of people have affairs at work, often shortlived. Many employers have rules about it. Many families break up. These things are commonplace.

    Boris's instinct was that Matt's dalliance with Gina did not matter. He was wrong about that, but probably right that it *should* not have mattered.
    Nah - he went becasue he broke his own rules - hypocrites can never stay. Never make rules for others you personally cannot obey
    Doesn’t bode well for the rest of them.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,445

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    As alluded to on the other thread, that is what makes this seem so unsatisfactory, and also undermines any claim of whistleblowing. Matt Hancock was brought down by an on-camera snog. Not because he caused thousands of deaths in care homes, or wasted billions on a failed track and trace system, or possible corruption in no-bid contracts. Nor do we give him credit for the vaccination programme.

    It is worse than nailing Al Capone for not paying income tax. Lots of people have affairs at work, often shortlived. Many employers have rules about it. Many families break up. These things are commonplace.

    Boris's instinct was that Matt's dalliance with Gina did not matter. He was wrong about that, but probably right that it *should* not have mattered.
    For me, it's exactly right that this is what he goes for.
    For everything else, there is a counterfactual you could present where things would have been worse, or a heat of battle argument, or you can point to other countries who made the same error. Indeed, the argument about over-caution in release from lockdown could also go into the 'honest mistake' category.
    The sitting on the data which could have seen us released last week - well, he should have gone for that, for me - that falls into the 'dishonest mistake' category. But even here he could use the 'means to an end argument.
    Whereas the revelation that he wasn't even following his own rules - his own shitty, stupid, draconian, wildly disproportionate rules that have locked millions of people into this perpetual half life - without a doubt, that comes top of the charge sheet.
    He made having an affair illegal. He spent billions morally blackmailing the country into not seeing other people. And then he had an affair.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    Anyone else in mind, Mrs Gove?

    The problem with the wife who has known you since way before you were king of the world is that she sees through your facade.

    She knows your fears and your insecurities. She knows that, deep down inside, you are not the Master of the Universe you purport to be. And some people don’t like to be reminded of that.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-9728749/SARAH-VINE-problem-wife-knows-youre-not-Master-Universe.html
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    ydoethur said:

    @TSE

    The Tory Party has already had two leaders from an ethnic minority - in 1868 and 2003.

    The Liberals and Labour have one each - 1931 and 2010.

    I think you mean the first *non-white* leader which is not quite the same thing.

    Interesting, isn't it, how this piece ignores Jewish immigrants in favour of ones who, presumably, look a bit more properly coloured up.

    Just another variety of anti-semitism going on here? The subtext of it buys into the notion that they're not as deserving of the (vomit-inducing) smug self congratulations because they must have money hoarded away somewhere. Let's parade our son of a Pakistani bus driver rather than those whose families are sitting on mountains of Rothschild gold. (Neatly ignoring the fact that in reality many of them had narrowly escaped the concentrations camps.)

    It takes me back to that hideous old bat Anne Widdecombe and her clearly anti-semitic attack on Michael Howard. He apparently had 'something of the night' about him. Naked anti-semitism. He was portrayed on at least one front page as a Fagin figure. I'm just surprised they didn't go the whole hog and picture him drinking the blood of virgins before returning to his casket at dawn.




    Correction: the “newspaper front page” was a *Labour party campaign advertisement*

    But they’re on the side of the goodies so it’s all ok…
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:
    Oops.

    I would say it’s as well the person contacted the Beeb and not the Russian Embassy, but I wonder why they didn’t contact the MoD or the police?
    Because you'd almost certainly get accused of nicking them as part of a cover up.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Yeah, I think he’s overrated, too.

    Still, he has to be in with a decent shot at the leadership given how well liked he is on the backbenches.
    A bit empty in my view. But then he's an ex-Deutsche Bank banker so my view is a bit skewed. Such people featured quite regularly in my list of people needing investigation.

    Still, he's probably politically in a strong position now. Odd that Boris didn't promote Zawahi or Argar. They'd have owed him. Javid doesn't.
    Promote those two and you create a further vacancy. That then needs filling. Which means more confusion.

    Better to stick to one simple change given a couple of candidates were available.

    Much the same logic that led Thatcher to make Pym foreign Secretary, despite hating his guts, when Carrington resigned.
    Fair point.

    But Thatcher appointed lots of people to senior posts whom she didn't much like and who didn't necessarily share her views.

    Whereas Boris got rid of all his rivals and any MP who opposed him. He's been pretty ruthless. So I wonder whether he is now a little bit weakened.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374
    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:
    Oops.

    I would say it’s as well the person contacted the Beeb and not the Russian Embassy, but I wonder why they didn’t contact the MoD or the police?
    There is a tragicomic scene in the Cambridge Spies affair where Guy Burgess was passing top secret papers to his Russian handler in a pub, and dropped them all over the floor. An off-duty policeman drinking in the bar helped Burgess pick them up.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,942
    EXC: Minister referred to standards watchdog after sponsoring parliamentary pass for Gina Coladangelo — even though she never worked for him

    Lord Bethell, Test & Trace minister, shielded Hancock from scrutiny for months

    Big Qs for Hancock's friend/donor

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lord-bethell-faces-inquiry-over-sponsorship-of-parliamentary-pass-for-matt-hancocks-lover-wp5qmf359

    We first asked @JimBethell, a minister, why he sponsored Coladangelo's parliamentary pass ... last November.

    The govt answered most of our questions but simply ignored this one.

    The rules say peers can only sponsor passes for staffers who "genuinely & personally work for them'
    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1409034430904258562
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,417

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:
    Oops.

    I would say it’s as well the person contacted the Beeb and not the Russian Embassy, but I wonder why they didn’t contact the MoD or the police?
    There is a tragicomic scene in the Cambridge Spies affair where Guy Burgess was passing top secret papers to his Russian handler in a pub, and dropped them all over the floor. An off-duty policeman drinking in the bar helped Burgess pick them up.
    I thought they always did it on a park bench muttering the weather is good in Moscow
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    edited June 2021
    Cookie said:

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    As alluded to on the other thread, that is what makes this seem so unsatisfactory, and also undermines any claim of whistleblowing. Matt Hancock was brought down by an on-camera snog. Not because he caused thousands of deaths in care homes, or wasted billions on a failed track and trace system, or possible corruption in no-bid contracts. Nor do we give him credit for the vaccination programme.

    It is worse than nailing Al Capone for not paying income tax. Lots of people have affairs at work, often shortlived. Many employers have rules about it. Many families break up. These things are commonplace.

    Boris's instinct was that Matt's dalliance with Gina did not matter. He was wrong about that, but probably right that it *should* not have mattered.
    For me, it's exactly right that this is what he goes for.
    For everything else, there is a counterfactual you could present where things would have been worse, or a heat of battle argument, or you can point to other countries who made the same error. Indeed, the argument about over-caution in release from lockdown could also go into the 'honest mistake' category.
    The sitting on the data which could have seen us released last week - well, he should have gone for that, for me - that falls into the 'dishonest mistake' category. But even here he could use the 'means to an end argument.
    Whereas the revelation that he wasn't even following his own rules - his own shitty, stupid, draconian, wildly disproportionate rules that have locked millions of people into this perpetual half life - without a doubt, that comes top of the charge sheet.
    He made having an affair illegal. He spent billions morally blackmailing the country into not seeing other people. And then he had an affair.
    The problem is, he’s been breaking his own rules in other fields too, with far more damaging public and public health consequences.

    Procurement - we’ve been through that.

    Care homes - the law states that care home residents should only be discharged from hospital when the manager of the care home has signed to say they accept them back. Instead, there have been cases in Birmingham where Covid positive care home residents were brought back by ambulance at 2am and threats were made to force the duty staff to take them in. This was to ensure a manager couldn’t refuse to take them back. No wonder Covid went ripping through our care homes.

    Schools - the rules state that close contacts should isolate. The guidelines state that this is anyone within a ‘bubble.’ The law has actually been reinterpreted so as far as possible it is only anyone within 2 metres of a positive case. Not including any staff. No wonder Covid went rampaging through our schools.

    Hancock genuinely seems to think that the law is what he says it is and if it disagrees with him, it can go fuck itself. While this isn’t his most serious breach of it, it’s all of a piece with his general attitude.

    And such an attitude makes him totally unfit to serve in public office.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:
    Oops.

    I would say it’s as well the person contacted the Beeb and not the Russian Embassy, but I wonder why they didn’t contact the MoD or the police?
    Because you'd almost certainly get accused of nicking them as part of a cover up.
    Good answer.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,445

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    Putting morality aside - I don't understand, logistically, how working parents of three children have an affair. Where do they find the time? And indeed the energy?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,611

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    An office affair was not the hanging offence, there was also:

    1) the breach of SD rules
    2) the appointment of GC as non-executive director
    3) the use of private emails for government business.
    4) the potential undeclared conflicts of interest when awarding NHS contracts.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    It is actually notable that the U.K. has had a several Jewish heritage PMs or party leaders now.

    Compare with the USA and its unending line of WASPs (bar Kennedy) until Obama.

    It’s almost as if lifting US analysis of racial problems and applying them to the UK isn’t helpful
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,231
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Yeah, I think he’s overrated, too.

    Still, he has to be in with a decent shot at the leadership given how well liked he is on the backbenches.
    A bit empty in my view. But then he's an ex-Deutsche Bank banker so my view is a bit skewed. Such people featured quite regularly in my list of people needing investigation.

    Still, he's probably politically in a strong position now. Odd that Boris didn't promote Zawahi or Argar. They'd have owed him. Javid doesn't.
    Promote those two and you create a further vacancy. That then needs filling. Which means more confusion.

    Better to stick to one simple change given a couple of candidates were available.

    Much the same logic that led Thatcher to make Pym foreign Secretary, despite hating his guts, when Carrington resigned.
    Fair point.

    But Thatcher appointed lots of people to senior posts whom she didn't much like and who didn't necessarily share her views.

    Whereas Boris got rid of all his rivals and any MP who opposed him. He's been pretty ruthless. So I wonder whether he is now a little bit weakened.
    Thatcher got rid of Pym as soon as she could. The day after the 1983 General Election, in fact.

    His ‘landslides don’t make successful governments’ remark is usually blamed, but in fact two days after his appointment he said to a group of friends ‘that woman’s a corporal, not a cavalry officer.’

    And she got to hear about it...
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,611
    Cookie said:

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    Putting morality aside - I don't understand, logistically, how working parents of three children have an affair. Where do they find the time? And indeed the energy?
    Child neglect and selfishness?
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374
    Pulpstar said:
    One is reminded of Denis Thatcher breaking up political meetings dragging on into the early hours by telling Margaret it was time for bed. Possibly Clementine Churchill too.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Foxy said:

    Cookie said:

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    Putting morality aside - I don't understand, logistically, how working parents of three children have an affair. Where do they find the time? And indeed the energy?
    Child neglect and selfishness?
    Nannies.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    As alluded to on the other thread, that is what makes this seem so unsatisfactory, and also undermines any claim of whistleblowing. Matt Hancock was brought down by an on-camera snog. Not because he caused thousands of deaths in care homes, or wasted billions on a failed track and trace system, or possible corruption in no-bid contracts. Nor do we give him credit for the vaccination programme.

    It is worse than nailing Al Capone for not paying income tax. Lots of people have affairs at work, often shortlived. Many employers have rules about it. Many families break up. These things are commonplace.

    Boris's instinct was that Matt's dalliance with Gina did not matter. He was wrong about that, but probably right that it *should* not have mattered.
    For me, it's exactly right that this is what he goes for.
    For everything else, there is a counterfactual you could present where things would have been worse, or a heat of battle argument, or you can point to other countries who made the same error. Indeed, the argument about over-caution in release from lockdown could also go into the 'honest mistake' category.
    The sitting on the data which could have seen us released last week - well, he should have gone for that, for me - that falls into the 'dishonest mistake' category. But even here he could use the 'means to an end argument.
    Whereas the revelation that he wasn't even following his own rules - his own shitty, stupid, draconian, wildly disproportionate rules that have locked millions of people into this perpetual half life - without a doubt, that comes top of the charge sheet.
    He made having an affair illegal. He spent billions morally blackmailing the country into not seeing other people. And then he had an affair.
    The problem is, he’s been breaking his own rules in other fields too, with far more damaging public and public health consequences.

    Procurement - we’ve been through that.

    Care homes - the law states that care home residents should only be discharged from hospital when the manager of the care home has signed to say they accept them back. Instead, there have been cases in Birmingham where Covid positive care home residents were brought back by ambulance at 2am and threats were made to force the duty staff to take them in. This was to ensure a manager couldn’t refuse to take them back. No wonder Covid went ripping through our care homes.

    Schools - the rules state that close contacts should isolate. The guidelines state that this is anyone within a ‘bubble.’ The law has actually been reinterpreted so as far as possible it is only anyone within 2 metres of a positive case. Not including any staff. No wonder Covid went rampaging through our schools.

    Hancock genuinely seems to think that the law is what he says it is and if it disagrees with him, it can go fuck itself. While this isn’t his most serious breach of it, it’s all of a piece with his general attitude.

    And such an attitude makes him totally unfit to serve in public office.
    Govt ministers can’t hide on this things because they made them laws. If they were guidance (depending on the nature of the offence, and to the extent it was “one-off”/“moment of weakness” etc) then there is the possibility of brazening it out. But the Government have actively criminalised a large part of normal human activity. For the U.K. population since March 2020 there has been no “private life” which didn’t (at least in theory) put you on the hook for criminal sanction.

    This clearly makes a massive difference.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Pulpstar said:
    One is reminded of Denis Thatcher breaking up political meetings dragging on into the early hours by telling Margaret it was time for bed. Possibly Clementine Churchill too.
    “Clemmie and Maggie. The untold scandal”
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,374

    ydoethur said:

    alex_ said:
    Oops.

    I would say it’s as well the person contacted the Beeb and not the Russian Embassy, but I wonder why they didn’t contact the MoD or the police?
    There is a tragicomic scene in the Cambridge Spies affair where Guy Burgess was passing top secret papers to his Russian handler in a pub, and dropped them all over the floor. An off-duty policeman drinking in the bar helped Burgess pick them up.
    I thought they always did it on a park bench muttering the weather is good in Moscow
    One of the books or documentaries on the Cambridge Spies discusses that dilemma. Whether to make contact in out of the way, isolated places, where you can't be seen but if you are, you might be noticed, or if it is safer to meet in crowded places where no-one gives you a second glance.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Yeah, I think he’s overrated, too.

    Still, he has to be in with a decent shot at the leadership given how well liked he is on the backbenches.
    A bit empty in my view. But then he's an ex-Deutsche Bank banker so my view is a bit skewed. Such people featured quite regularly in my list of people needing investigation.

    Still, he's probably politically in a strong position now. Odd that Boris didn't promote Zawahi or Argar. They'd have owed him. Javid doesn't.
    Promote those two and you create a further vacancy. That then needs filling. Which means more confusion.

    Better to stick to one simple change given a couple of candidates were available.

    Much the same logic that led Thatcher to make Pym foreign Secretary, despite hating his guts, when Carrington resigned.
    Fair point.

    But Thatcher appointed lots of people to senior posts whom she didn't much like and who didn't necessarily share her views.

    Whereas Boris got rid of all his rivals and any MP who opposed him. He's been pretty ruthless. So I wonder whether he is now a little bit weakened.
    Thatcher got rid of Pym as soon as she could. The day after the 1983 General Election, in fact.

    His ‘landslides don’t make successful governments’ remark is usually blamed, but in fact two days after his appointment he said to a group of friends ‘that woman’s a corporal, not a cavalry officer.’

    And she got to hear about it...
    Sounds like good riddance to bad rubbish, tbh.
    Thatcher took on the snobs. And won.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Agreed. Plus he flourished at Deutsche Bank which is always a red flag
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Cookie said:

    Amazing how many PBers are willing to judge Hancock over the affair itself, and not for being a sweaty mountebank.

    1 in 5 Brits have had an affair, there must be one or two on PB.

    I do think the stress of the last year must have been immense and it is absolutely textbook that this can manifest in affairs.

    This assumes the affair started recently, though.

    Putting morality aside - I don't understand, logistically, how working parents of three children have an affair. Where do they find the time? And indeed the energy?
    Yes but the job requires v long hours, travelling etc etc. So lots of slots in the diary to canoodle.

    One presumes it is *easier* to find time as a politician to have an affair.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,611
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ping said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Yeah, I think he’s overrated, too.

    Still, he has to be in with a decent shot at the leadership given how well liked he is on the backbenches.
    A bit empty in my view. But then he's an ex-Deutsche Bank banker so my view is a bit skewed. Such people featured quite regularly in my list of people needing investigation.

    Still, he's probably politically in a strong position now. Odd that Boris didn't promote Zawahi or Argar. They'd have owed him. Javid doesn't.
    Promote those two and you create a further vacancy. That then needs filling. Which means more confusion.

    Better to stick to one simple change given a couple of candidates were available.

    Much the same logic that led Thatcher to make Pym foreign Secretary, despite hating his guts, when Carrington resigned.
    Fair point.

    But Thatcher appointed lots of people to senior posts whom she didn't much like and who didn't necessarily share her views.

    Whereas Boris got rid of all his rivals and any MP who opposed him. He's been pretty ruthless. So I wonder whether he is now a little bit weakened.
    He has been keeping quiet this weekend. If the rumours of him and Carrie being in Madeira for a short honeymoon are true, I wonder how that will go down.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hard to know when the next Tory leadership election will take place and in what circumstances it occurs.

    But I was very unimpressed with Javid at the last contest. I expected him to shine and when it came to it he just didn’t.

    Agreed. Plus he flourished at Deutsche Bank which is always a red flag
    I presume he is highly numerate.
    But he comes across as a bit thick.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653

    Pulpstar said:
    One is reminded of Denis Thatcher breaking up political meetings dragging on into the early hours by telling Margaret it was time for bed. Possibly Clementine Churchill too.
    Or the Tory Violet Attlee giving Scotland Yard protection officers the willies when driving her husband around at speed during election campaigns.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    alex_ said:
    “A concerned member of the public …. Realised the sensitivity… contacted the BBC”

    How about contacting the MoD?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    A French friend of my parents has a phrase that sums up Hancock "Un petit morceau de merde."
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Violet Attlee giving the willies?
    Another Tory scandal!
This discussion has been closed.