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Theresa May is right to slam Johnson and his ministers for maintaining travel bans – politicalbettin

SystemSystem Posts: 12,219
edited June 2021 in General
Theresa May is right to slam Johnson and his ministers for maintaining travel bans – politicalbetting.com

In all the years I have been following and writing about politics I cannot recall a speech from an ex-PM like the above one from TMay. Remember she was not attacking another party but the current Tory government for maintaining the rigid travel bans when other countries are loosening up.

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    1st
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited June 2021
    Mike has totally missed the bigger news....Times says delay to Step 4 is looking more like a month delay, in order to get more people (fully) vaccinated.

    If only we had a massive supply of vaccines sitting in a warehouse doing nothing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,314

    Mike has totally missed the bigger news....Times says delay to Step 4 is now going to be at least a month, in order to get more people (fully) vaccinated.

    If only we had a massive supply of vaccines sitting in a warehouse doing nothing.

    Germany started offering AstraZeneca to anyone who wanted it a month ago...

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/third-wave-pandemic-appears-be-broken-german-health-minister-2021-05-07/
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,462
    Travel bans do not affect me personally but there is a sense, partly articulated by Theresa May, that the government is jerking people around rather than acting in a predictable manner.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited June 2021

    Mike has totally missed the bigger news....Times says delay to Step 4 is now going to be at least a month, in order to get more people (fully) vaccinated.

    If only we had a massive supply of vaccines sitting in a warehouse doing nothing.

    Germany started offering AstraZeneca to anyone who wanted it a month ago...

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/third-wave-pandemic-appears-be-broken-german-health-minister-2021-05-07/
    I fully understand the original decision, the risk profile was no Indian variant, one dose of Pfizer worked something like ~90%, so the timeline was fine, basically come Step 4 near enough everybody would have one dose of something.

    Its all changed now. We are back to early Jan, when it was crucial just to get as many jabs in as many arms as soon as possible. We should have shifted several weeks ago.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533

    Travel bans do not affect me personally but there is a sense, partly articulated by Theresa May, that the government is jerking people around rather than acting in a predictable manner.

    Airbridge v2.0 was always going to be a mess....
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    It is pretty amazing, how Boris Johnson & Co have managed to tie up the one clear success they've had in the war on COVID - vaccination.

    Perhaps it is only natural, that a Prime Minster and government, who have turned muddling though into a cottage industry if not an art form, have stepped all over themselves on this front.

    First by (apparently) giving preference to AZM (again apparently) because it was (at least half-way) British. Can still remember the howls of outrage that dirty EU politicos & bureaucrats were slandering a fine British product, just out of spite for Brexit! Until of course the UK itself cut back on AZN for the same reason as the foul Frogs etc, etc.

    And subsequently by whipsawing the public over foreign holidays - regardless of vax status - while at the same time keeping an Open Door policy with respect to the Delta variant.

    Certainly there is an element of special pleading in Theresa May's powerful blast, due to fact she represents a goodly number of airport & airline employees. But she is not speaking JUST for them, as commentary by OGH and other PBers makes crystal clear.

    Personally am still wary of air travel - and weddings! - due to their demonstrated capacity for spreading the COVID. But muddle and blather are NOT solutions, they are the opposite.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    Mike has totally missed the bigger news....Times says delay to Step 4 is now going to be at least a month, in order to get more people (fully) vaccinated.

    If only we had a massive supply of vaccines sitting in a warehouse doing nothing.

    Germany started offering AstraZeneca to anyone who wanted it a month ago...

    https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/third-wave-pandemic-appears-be-broken-german-health-minister-2021-05-07/
    I fully understand the original decision, the risk profile was no Indian variant, one dose of Pfizer worked something like ~90%, so the timeline was fine, basically come Step 4 near enough everybody would have one dose of something.

    Its all changed now. We are back to early Jan, when it was crucial just to get as many jabs in as many arms as soon as possible. We should have shifted several weeks ago.
    Agree 100%. Get the AZ out to anyone over 18, the risk profile has drastically changed.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,462
    Otoh, the public can be as inconsistent as the government.

    WFH is fine; Zoom calls are great for induction, training and sales; no need for in-person contact at the office. But it is scandalous we are prevented from seeing our overseas friends and relatives.

    G7 might not help, with dignatories flying in, and front-page photos of Carrie, Wilf, and Jill Biden on the beach.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85
    I think one thing that needs to be examined is, if the government does not deliver on the 21st June, what scale of protests both passive and active may we see? Speaking to a friend who is in the police, they're concerned there may be a number of issues if any delay happens.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,462

    I think one thing that needs to be examined is, if the government does not deliver on the 21st June, what scale of protests both passive and active may we see? Speaking to a friend who is in the police, they're concerned there may be a number of issues if any delay happens.

    The devil may be in the detail. Provided the government does not reimpose any restrictions, any postponement will probably be greeted with a resigned shrug. Weddings are a grey area, since many couples will already have made arrangements on the current timetable, though the mood music has been that, whatever else happens, the weddings rules will still be relaxed.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    The government seems to have literally gone to sleep on the vaccinations. After a very good start, they're being very slow to reduce the Pfizer gap down to 4 weeks (which is known to work, even if AZ has to be kept 8-12) as well as not changing their advice on under 40s getting AZ (risk profile has drastically changed) and implimenting the mix and max 2nd dose approach which has already shown huge promise?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Is HM govt"s objection to vax passports ideological?

    Like that of Gov De Santis of Florida, who has banned them for cruise ships operating from Sunshine State ports (a large numbers) in order to please the MAGA base he hopes will propel him into the White House in 2024?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,971
    edited June 2021
    "Zero Covid" doesn't seem to have as many supporters as it appeared to have just a few weeks ago.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Andy_JS said:

    "Zero Covid" doesn't seem to have as many supporters as it appeared to have just a few weeks ago.

    Isn't "zero COVID" the equivalent of "zero tolerance" for whatever? Beloved by politicos for rhetorical purposes, even when they know it's an ideal unlikely to be realized?

    Am all for setting high goals, but "zero COVID" makes as much objective sense methinks as Luddism.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    Is HM govt"s objection to vax passports ideological?

    Like that of Gov De Santis of Florida, who has banned them for cruise ships operating from Sunshine State ports (a large numbers) in order to please the MAGA base he hopes will propel him into the White House in 2024?

    I think we're probably going to see vax passports implimented shortly. Ultimately if the difference is lockdown or that, that is the better option. At the very least expect to see it at large events and nightclubs going forward.

    Alternatively, the government could commit to a genuine policy of herd immunity via a final "exit wave" (with the vaccines helping) and we'll probably see another 20k deaths before hitting it with this new variant, but least we'll be there. Unsure..
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    Andy_JS said:

    "Zero Covid" doesn't seem to have as many supporters as it appeared to have just a few weeks ago.

    Isn't "zero COVID" the equivalent of "zero tolerance" for whatever? Beloved by politicos for rhetorical purposes, even when they know it's an ideal unlikely to be realized?

    Am all for setting high goals, but "zero COVID" makes as much objective sense methinks as Luddism.
    Zero COVID is an utterly ridiculous concept. This virus is here to stay, it's endemic and any politician who doesn't understand that is utterly stupid. Once a high degree of immunity across the population is built it will become the flu. You can't lock down your economy on an annual basis for that and neither can you do so for this.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    I think one thing that needs to be examined is, if the government does not deliver on the 21st June, what scale of protests both passive and active may we see? Speaking to a friend who is in the police, they're concerned there may be a number of issues if any delay happens.

    The devil may be in the detail. Provided the government does not reimpose any restrictions, any postponement will probably be greeted with a resigned shrug. Weddings are a grey area, since many couples will already have made arrangements on the current timetable, though the mood music has been that, whatever else happens, the weddings rules will still be relaxed.
    I think the test will be the social distancing rule which involves pubs, restaurants, clubs and events. If that goes, I think it'll be fine.. Even if masks, WFH, track and trace etc remain I can see it being OK.

    If Boris announces 21st June, freedom day, is basically weddings OK and hey you can order from the bar now and not do table service.. Expect mass protests and potentially riots.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    Is it? The US is at 51.5% of the population one-dosed to 60% for the UK, not that huge a gap, and in terms of fully vaccinated, both countries are now at 42%

    Yet the UK is seeing a new spike and the US isn’t. I can’t help thinking that the UK’s long gap between doses is problematic given that the Delta variant seems to be resistant to just a single dose, and perhaps the US having vaccinations open to all over 12 is keeping the spread low among young people, especially st schools snd colleges.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    rpjs said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    Is it? The US is at 51.5% of the population one-dosed to 60% for the UK, not that huge a gap, and in terms of fully vaccinated, both countries are now at 42%

    Yet the UK is seeing a new spike and the US isn’t. I can’t help thinking that the UK’s long gap between doses is problematic given that the Delta variant seems to be resistant to just a single dose, and perhaps the US having vaccinations open to all over 12 is keeping the spread low among young people, especially st schools snd colleges.
    It's levelling off in the US, that's why they can offer it to more age cohorts. If the demand was there they wouldn't have been able to do it. As for a spike, the US is just behind the UK, that's all.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85
    rpjs said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    Is it? The US is at 51.5% of the population one-dosed to 60% for the UK, not that huge a gap, and in terms of fully vaccinated, both countries are now at 42%

    Yet the UK is seeing a new spike and the US isn’t. I can’t help thinking that the UK’s long gap between doses is problematic given that the Delta variant seems to be resistant to just a single dose, and perhaps the US having vaccinations open to all over 12 is keeping the spread low among young people, especially st schools snd colleges.
    The UK is just unlucky, coupled with BJ's screwing the country open with an open invitation to those abroad to come on in and give us new variants. Kinda ironic from Mr Brexit isn't it?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    RobD said:

    rpjs said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    Is it? The US is at 51.5% of the population one-dosed to 60% for the UK, not that huge a gap, and in terms of fully vaccinated, both countries are now at 42%

    Yet the UK is seeing a new spike and the US isn’t. I can’t help thinking that the UK’s long gap between doses is problematic given that the Delta variant seems to be resistant to just a single dose, and perhaps the US having vaccinations open to all over 12 is keeping the spread low among young people, especially st schools snd colleges.
    It's levelling off in the US, that's why they can offer it to more age cohorts. If the demand was there they wouldn't have been able to do it. As for a spike, the US is just behind the UK, that's all.
    Would like some with more expertise than mine (zero) to opine, but my impression is that the US situation is more different than UK than you think. But we're gonna find out for sure methinks over the summer.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    RobD said:

    rpjs said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    Is it? The US is at 51.5% of the population one-dosed to 60% for the UK, not that huge a gap, and in terms of fully vaccinated, both countries are now at 42%

    Yet the UK is seeing a new spike and the US isn’t. I can’t help thinking that the UK’s long gap between doses is problematic given that the Delta variant seems to be resistant to just a single dose, and perhaps the US having vaccinations open to all over 12 is keeping the spread low among young people, especially st schools snd colleges.
    It's levelling off in the US, that's why they can offer it to more age cohorts. If the demand was there they wouldn't have been able to do it. As for a spike, the US is just behind the UK, that's all.
    Would like some with more expertise than mine (zero) to opine, but my impression is that the US situation is more different than UK than you think. But we're gonna find out for sure methinks over the summer.
    I mean you just have to look at the graph of doses per person to realise that take-up is lower in the US. They wouldn't be offering it to children had they had a higher take-up amongst adults.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited June 2021
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?

    No doubt that UK has higher uptake than US among adults, agree with you on that. With major shortfalls in US being among White MAGA-types AND Black people (which is why % coverage is so low in Mississippi, Alabama & Louisiana, all with large numbers of both groups.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited June 2021
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Politico.com - What Herbert Hoover Can Teach Joe Biden
    Seventy-five years ago, an unlikely political duo teamed up to tackle a global famine. Their successes offer lessons as America gears up to help the world fight Covid19.

    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/06/10/biden-world-covid-vaccines-hoover-famine-relief-493228

    As the United States watches its Covid-19 rates decline, the next looming challenge will be fighting the disease in the rest of the world, where new variants are spreading and could continue to emerge, and the pandemic may dig in for years. To fight the virus overseas, President Joe Biden has just announced a plan at this week’s G7 Summit to donate 500 million vaccine doses to mostly lower-income countries. This pledge should make Americans proud.

    As big as that number is, however, it is only a down payment on the long-term effort to stamp out the pandemic globally. Of roughly 7.8 billion people, around 85 percent are not yet fully vaccinated. As the administration gears up to help with the daunting challenge of vaccinating the world, there’s a model that could point a way forward: the American-led post-World War II famine relief program. It’s a story of bipartisan cooperation, and it involves the return from political exile of an unexpected hero: Herbert Hoover.

    The food shortage after the war was dire. As Winston Churchill said in his “Iron Curtain” speech, “famine stalk[ed] the earth.” The U.S. was one of a few countries with a mostly intact economy and a surplus of food. . . .

    Democratic President Harry Truman turned to the Republican Herbert Hoover because of his unmatched qualifications. Hoover, the only living former president at the time (a title he held for 20 years), left office unpopular. But he also had earned the nickname “The Great Humanitarian” for leading the Commission for Relief in Belgium to feed 10 million people during World War I. . . .

    . . . . Truman, the man who had ordered the dropping of atomic weapons, wrote that a famine-relief session with Hoover was “the most important meeting held in the White House since I had become President.”

    To assess needs and rally the world, the 71-year-old Hoover went on the road. He traveled 50,000 miles to nearly 40 countries across five continents. He also met with everyone from the Pope to Gandhi to Chiang Kai-shek. While in Cairo, he and Truman gave a joint radio address urging their fellow citizens to fight the famine. Truman called for Americans to make real sacrifices and, on two days a week, to “reduce our food consumption to that of the average person in the hungry lands” so that more would be available to export. . . .

    Getting the postwar recovery right was key to keeping the peace. America exported 6 million tons of grains to Europe by July 1946, with more to come. Lives were saved, goodwill at the start of the Cold War was born and organizations like the United Nations Children’s Emergency Fund (UNICEF) were born. From tragedy came triumph. . . .
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Seattle Times ($) - Washington vaccine lottery winner says he got lucky — first, by not getting COVID-19 and then by winning $250,000

    he man who won the first $250,000 prize in Washington’s COVID-19 vaccine lottery claimed his award Thursday, the Washington Lottery announced.

    “I got lucky,” the winner, identified as Lance R., said in a statement released by the Lottery. “Mainly, I was lucky that I didn’t get hit with COVID before the vaccines were developed and available. Millions around the world haven’t had such good luck.”

    Winning the money was “icing on the cake” and “totally unexpected,” he said.

    The Lottery did not say which part of the state Lance R. lives in or provide further information about him.

    His name was selected in Tuesday’s drawing, and he was reached by phone Wednesday. Lottery officials are waiting to hear back from this week’s other winners for merchandise prizes, after having to leave many voice mails, according to lottery spokesperson Dan Miller. Winners have 72 hours to claim their prizes.

    The state will continue to hold drawings each Tuesday through the month of June, with a drawing for the biggest prize — a $1 million jackpot — scheduled for July 13. The state is also giving away airline tickets, sporting-event tickets, Xboxes and other prizes in an effort to encourage Washingtonians to get the COVID-19 vaccine. . . .
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Oregon State House now preparing to expel a member for participation in attack on the state Capital in December 2020.

    https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/mediaplayer/?clientID=4879615486&eventID=2021061057
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Obviously because of simple supply and demand.

    Let me break it down for you?

    UK = Demand > Supply
    USA = Supply < Demand

    To sort this the government authorises younger ages. Simple.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    RobD said:

    rpjs said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    Is it? The US is at 51.5% of the population one-dosed to 60% for the UK, not that huge a gap, and in terms of fully vaccinated, both countries are now at 42%

    Yet the UK is seeing a new spike and the US isn’t. I can’t help thinking that the UK’s long gap between doses is problematic given that the Delta variant seems to be resistant to just a single dose, and perhaps the US having vaccinations open to all over 12 is keeping the spread low among young people, especially st schools snd colleges.
    It's levelling off in the US, that's why they can offer it to more age cohorts. If the demand was there they wouldn't have been able to do it. As for a spike, the US is just behind the UK, that's all.
    Would like some with more expertise than mine (zero) to opine, but my impression is that the US situation is more different than UK than you think. But we're gonna find out for sure methinks over the summer.
    It's exactly the same, we've just been unlucky with how willing we've been allowing flights to come through to seed the new variant.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,464
    I am starting to wonder if the Boris bounce will have peaked once G7 leaves Cornwall.....
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    I am starting to wonder if the Boris bounce will have peaked once G7 leaves Cornwall.....

    Hate to be the conspiracy theorist, but I hear there are a total of NINE freemason lodges around where they're staying. lol
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046
    edited June 2021

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Those prizes are definitely a good idea. A pity for those that have already got the jab, but good nonetheless. I've read that some states are even offering guns as prizes for getting a vaccination. God bless America ;)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited June 2021
    In Salem, Oregon, members of the State House are speaking in special legislative session on House Resolution 3, to expel Rep. Mike Nearman (R-Independence) from the House

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Nearman

    "2020 Oregon Capitol riot
    During a December 21, 2020 special session, Nearman let armed protesters into the Oregon State Capitol to protest against health restrictions related to the COVID-19 pandemic in Oregon. Joey Gibson, political activist and founder of Patriot Prayer, posted a video on Parler indicating a state representative let the group into the capitol, and in January 2021 security video was released of Nearman allowing similar right-wing protesters to enter the Oregon State Capitol Building through a door.

    Oregon House Speaker Tina Kotek fined Nearman $2,000 and stripped him of his committee assignments and appointments. Kotek also asked him to resign. Kotek and others are planning on filing a formal complaint about Nearman's actions creating a hostile workplace. Nearman also gave up his Capitol building badge; he agreed not to let unauthorized people into the building and must give 24 hours notice before he enters the building. Oregon State Police opened a criminal investigation against him.

    On April 30, 2021, prosecutors charged Nearman with official misconduct in the first degree (Class A misdemeanor, punishable by a maximum 364 days in prison and a US$6,250 fine) and criminal trespass in the second degree (Class C misdemeanor, punishable by a maximum of 30 days in jail and a $1,250 fine). Nearman did not appear in court on May 11 when he was arraigned on the charges, and his attorney did not file a plea. Nearman must appear in court in person or remotely for a June 29 hearing.

    In June 2021, video was discovered of a meeting at the office of the Freedom Foundation on December 16, 2020, during which Nearman detailed his plan to allow protestors entry to the capitol, which he dubbed "Operation Hall Pass". He couched it in a layer of irony, claiming to know nothing of the plan and saying that the cellphone number he gave out was just random numbers."

    Live feed from Oregon State House of Representatives:

    https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/mediaplayer/?clientID=4879615486&eventID=2021061057
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,046

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Obviously because of simple supply and demand.

    Let me break it down for you?

    UK = Demand > Supply
    USA = Supply < Demand

    To sort this the government authorises younger ages. Simple.
    I think that's right. The UK needs to get it's act together vis a vis supply, the US, demand.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Those prizes are definitely a good idea. A pity for those that have already got the jab, but good nonetheless. I've read that some states are even offering guns as prizes for getting a vaccination. God bless America ;)
    I doubt it'll persuade anyone. It'll be seen as patronising.

    Only way to convince them is with a good dose of fear. Like a new variant that is way more transmissible or something.

    Gotta love them Indians!
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Obviously because of simple supply and demand.

    Let me break it down for you?

    UK = Demand > Supply
    USA = Supply < Demand

    To sort this the government authorises younger ages. Simple.
    I think that's right. The UK needs to get it's act together vis a vis supply, the US, demand.
    Entirely correct. It needs to be opened up to all 18+ and AZ allowed. We have a getting on 6 million stockpile of that last I heard? Ridiculous.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Those prizes are definitely a good idea. A pity for those that have already got the jab, but good nonetheless. I've read that some states are even offering guns as prizes for getting a vaccination. God bless America ;)
    I doubt it'll persuade anyone. It'll be seen as patronising.

    Only way to convince them is with a good dose of fear. Like a new variant that is way more transmissible or something.

    Gotta love them Indians!
    You are being VERY categorical re: what is happening & what will work. Personally think you are wrong about lotteries & also in asserting that US situation is "exactly" the same as UK. But we'll find out soon enough.

    In meantime, suggest that Boris Johnson follow Joe Biden's example, by taking his finger out - for a change - and REALLY focusing on boosting the vaccination rate.

    Why the feck not?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Vote to expel Mike Nearman from Oregon State House

    Yea 59
    Nay 1
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Those prizes are definitely a good idea. A pity for those that have already got the jab, but good nonetheless. I've read that some states are even offering guns as prizes for getting a vaccination. God bless America ;)
    I doubt it'll persuade anyone. It'll be seen as patronising.

    Only way to convince them is with a good dose of fear. Like a new variant that is way more transmissible or something.

    Gotta love them Indians!
    You are being VERY categorical re: what is happening & what will work. Personally think you are wrong about lotteries & also in asserting that US situation is "exactly" the same as UK. But we'll find out soon enough.

    In meantime, suggest that Boris Johnson follow Joe Biden's example, by taking his finger out - for a change - and REALLY focusing on boosting the vaccination rate.

    Why the feck not?
    You're completely correct. I think the government, while it did an amazing job at the start of the year, has grown complacent and dropped the ball now. As we already know with this dreaded virus, we need to stay ahead by several steps to stay safe!
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Those prizes are definitely a good idea. A pity for those that have already got the jab, but good nonetheless. I've read that some states are even offering guns as prizes for getting a vaccination. God bless America ;)
    In WA State, everyone who has been double-vaxed is eligible, my guess it's that way in most states.

    There are special prizes reserved for teenagers in WA and elsewhere, generally connected with college tuition & expenses.

    Guns & pickups are being offered in WVa which is a smart idea; tailor the prizes to the audience. BTW, would personally trust the average West Virginian with a gun a damn site quicker than the average Washingtonian, or Briton for that matter. Certainly way less danger of getting shot by accident!
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85
    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What about pubs, restaruants, events?

    Do we re-open them? I'd say so. Unfortunately with this new Indian/Delta variant we will probably see an exit wave of about half the peak of the first wave. Travel, yeah, that seems sensible to remove from the point of variants.

    Am I missing anything here?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What's the problem with vax passports for purposes of air travel. Already highly regulated anyway from the air traveler point of view due to security versus terrorism.

    What is the difference in principle, with security versus pandemic?
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What's the problem with vax passports for purposes of air travel. Already highly regulated anyway from the air traveler point of view due to security versus terrorism.

    What is the difference in principle, with security versus pandemic?
    I'd rather see the vax passports and NO restrictions for those thereof than restrictions for all.

    That's your choice?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Tonight, in the wake of the decision in our sister state of Oregon, as a Washingtonian I am proud to be a Westerner. And proud of the Republicans in the Oregon State House, who united with their fellow representatives and citizens across the aisle, to stand up for TRUE small-d democratic, AMERICAN values.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited June 2021

    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What's the problem with vax passports for purposes of air travel. Already highly regulated anyway from the air traveler point of view due to security versus terrorism.

    What is the difference in principle, with security versus pandemic?
    I'd rather see the vax passports and NO restrictions for those thereof than restrictions for all.

    That's your choice?
    Not willing to say zero restrictions. For one thing, need to give goverment (national, regional, local) some flexibility.

    As for vax passports, think they should be limited, say to air travel and large gatherings, again with some flexibility.

    Avoidance of the categorical where feasible!

    EDIT - In general, am in favor of opening up rather than closing down, no doubt about that. In large part, because I'm double-vaxed and thus my level of personal concern about either catching OR transmitting the Crud is nil, or close enough!
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85

    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What's the problem with vax passports for purposes of air travel. Already highly regulated anyway from the air traveler point of view due to security versus terrorism.

    What is the difference in principle, with security versus pandemic?
    I'd rather see the vax passports and NO restrictions for those thereof than restrictions for all.

    That's your choice?
    Not willing to say zero restrictions. For one thing, need to give goverment (national, regional, local) some flexibility.

    As for vax passports, think they should be limited, say to air travel and large gatherings, again with some flexibility.

    Avoidance of the categorical where feasible!
    I think the thing here is that there needs to be an acceptance of this "exit wave". Let's get it done this summer before winter when it'll be truely horrendous.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Btw, can I heartily recommend radio 4’s “rhysearch” - on last night, available to stream.

    Hopefully there will be more episodes.

    Hilarious.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Maryland is one of the highest uptake states, and Montgomery County (home of the CDC's parent, the NIH) has about the highest uptake in the State. Vaccine choice to all ages from 12 up have been available by walk-in at your local pharmacy for weeks now. Our local Weis supermarket pharmacy offers the choice of J&J, Pfizer and Moderna.

    You can see from the County's COVID page if you scroll down to the percentage vaccinated graph that the curve is flattening off at about 65% total population first jabs.

    https://covidactnow.org/us/maryland-md/county/montgomery_county/?s=1916835

    I am wondering if 65-70% total population (until they permit vaccination of kids 6 months - 12 years) will be the upper limit in the US.
  • Mikest1982Mikest1982 Posts: 85
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Obviously because of simple supply and demand.

    Let me break it down for you?

    UK = Demand > Supply
    USA = Supply < Demand

    To sort this the government authorises younger ages. Simple.
    I think that's right. The UK needs to get it's act together vis a vis supply, the US, demand.
    The UK has plenty of supply: they have 6m AZ doses in stock, and are receiving 300k+ more every day (albeit some are being used for second doses).

    The government chose to only offer Moderna/Pfizer to younger age groups, which is good in some ways - but reduces the speed at which whole country herd immunity is reached.

    The right strategy is to allow the AZ stockpile to be used in a mixed vax strategy: AZ first jab, Pfizer/Moderna second. The evidence from Spain is that AZ followed by Pfizer results in a stronger immune response than either AZ-AZ or PZE-PZE, and it is a much more efficient use of existing resources.

    It would - for a start - allow us to get pretty much everyone over the age of 18 who wants one a first jab by the end of this month.

    The UK government was absolutely spot on to prioritise first jabs in Feb/Mar/Apr, it seems insane that they have (a) forgotten this, and (b) are ignoring the emerging evidence that mixed vaccination strategies work better.
    Agreed. They literally need to sort this NOW. Every week delaying makes it worse and this is their OWN mistakes not any variants or whatnot.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,669

    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What's the problem with vax passports for purposes of air travel. Already highly regulated anyway from the air traveler point of view due to security versus terrorism.

    What is the difference in principle, with security versus pandemic?
    There is a feeling that if everybody can't do it, nobody should be able to do it.

    And while I understand that principle, the reality is that double vaccinated people who take a Covid test before travel are negligible risks.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,669
    TimT said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Maryland is one of the highest uptake states, and Montgomery County (home of the CDC's parent, the NIH) has about the highest uptake in the State. Vaccine choice to all ages from 12 up have been available by walk-in at your local pharmacy for weeks now. Our local Weis supermarket pharmacy offers the choice of J&J, Pfizer and Moderna.

    You can see from the County's COVID page if you scroll down to the percentage vaccinated graph that the curve is flattening off at about 65% total population first jabs.

    https://covidactnow.org/us/maryland-md/county/montgomery_county/?s=1916835

    I am wondering if 65-70% total population (until they permit vaccination of kids 6 months - 12 years) will be the upper limit in the US.
    Have you looked at the numbers for Alabama and Mississippi? Some of the rural counties are at 20-22% vaccinated, and haven't moved for weeks.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    edited June 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    TimT said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Maryland is one of the highest uptake states, and Montgomery County (home of the CDC's parent, the NIH) has about the highest uptake in the State. Vaccine choice to all ages from 12 up have been available by walk-in at your local pharmacy for weeks now. Our local Weis supermarket pharmacy offers the choice of J&J, Pfizer and Moderna.

    You can see from the County's COVID page if you scroll down to the percentage vaccinated graph that the curve is flattening off at about 65% total population first jabs.

    https://covidactnow.org/us/maryland-md/county/montgomery_county/?s=1916835

    I am wondering if 65-70% total population (until they permit vaccination of kids 6 months - 12 years) will be the upper limit in the US.
    Have you looked at the numbers for Alabama and Mississippi? Some of the rural counties are at 20-22% vaccinated, and haven't moved for weeks.
    TimT's numbers (and professional opinion) are (AIUI) consistent with 65% national coverage. BTW, on NYT it says Montgomery Co, MD fully vaxed in total pop = 62%, compared with 58% in King Co, WA. Though of course WE have a vital, dynamic, productive population. Whereas TimT & Co are effete, pampered bureaucrats who succumbed to the ravages of "Potomoc Fever" loooong ago!

    EDIT - Would you expect that % of people who contracted (and survived) COVID is highest, in just those places where the vax rate is lowest, or thereabouts? Which is helping the cause, albeit the hard way? The Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, Ted Nugent way?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Personally feel like the guy who just won $250,000 in the WA State vax lottery - I'm a winner because I got jabbed BEFORE catching the COVID. Right now, that's prize enough for me.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173
    edited June 2021
    TimT said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Thanks. One factor just starting to kick in here in USA, is vax lotteries. Impact as yet unknown, but should goose things a bit - we ARE a nation of materialists!

    Again, we'll know more in a few months than we know today, as per usual. At least about that interval.

    And UK has advantage of much more centralized system, plus much lower degree of politically-generated anti-vaxism. But seems that some of this advantage has bee squandered in various ways, as discussed in detail on PB.
    Maryland is one of the highest uptake states, and Montgomery County (home of the CDC's parent, the NIH) has about the highest uptake in the State. Vaccine choice to all ages from 12 up have been available by walk-in at your local pharmacy for weeks now. Our local Weis supermarket pharmacy offers the choice of J&J, Pfizer and Moderna.

    You can see from the County's COVID page if you scroll down to the percentage vaccinated graph that the curve is flattening off at about 65% total population first jabs.

    https://covidactnow.org/us/maryland-md/county/montgomery_county/?s=1916835

    I am wondering if 65-70% total population (until they permit vaccination of kids 6 months - 12 years) will be the upper limit in the US.
    Nevertheless the US new case rates are, proportionately, less than half of the UK’s. The difference is that their death rate is still ten times higher.
  • Totally agree with Mike. And what a great quote this is:

    "TMay’s core argument is that the UK, “one of the most heavily vaccinated countries in the world”, is the nation that is the one that is “most reluctant to give its citizens the freedoms those vaccinations should support”."
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173

    Andy_JS said:

    "Zero Covid" doesn't seem to have as many supporters as it appeared to have just a few weeks ago.

    Isn't "zero COVID" the equivalent of "zero tolerance" for whatever? Beloved by politicos for rhetorical purposes, even when they know it's an ideal unlikely to be realized?

    Am all for setting high goals, but "zero COVID" makes as much objective sense methinks as Luddism.
    An outrageous comment.

    Luddism created jobs, at least for machine repair men, as well as being aimed at saving the jobs of those who saw the machines as a threat.

    ‘Zero Covid’ would, and is, destroying jobs.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173
    edited June 2021

    I think one thing that needs to be examined is, if the government does not deliver on the 21st June, what scale of protests both passive and active may we see? Speaking to a friend who is in the police, they're concerned there may be a number of issues if any delay happens.

    The devil may be in the detail. Provided the government does not reimpose any restrictions, any postponement will probably be greeted with a resigned shrug. Weddings are a grey area, since many couples will already have made arrangements on the current timetable, though the mood music has been that, whatever else happens, the weddings rules will still be relaxed.
    I am not so sure. People have had enough, both of the restrictions, and of the ever-changing myriad of petty rules, guidance and messaging, and ever-changing dates.

    The government has political capital from the one thing that has gone right, being also the one thing that the PM was deliberately kept well away from. This, on the other hand, has all the hallmarks of something he has been actively involved with: inconsistency, capriciousness, confusion, a stance that changes depending on whether his last phone call was from the travel industry or SAGE. I think people will take losing our long-promised ‘freedom day’ very badly. Anyone running a business certainly will.

    Had Mrs May slowed down a bit, her speech could have become one of those heavyweight, devastating ones. A shame she tends to gabble when she is under pressure.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What are the criteria that you will accept getting back to normal with? Because there will always be risks of a new wave, new variants, and mitigating actions we could take with a couple of extra months.

    At an absolute minimum we need to establish a clear set of criteria, that can be met in real life (not potential risk of new variants for example), that will allow a return to normal life.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,046

    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What's the problem with vax passports for purposes of air travel. Already highly regulated anyway from the air traveler point of view due to security versus terrorism.

    What is the difference in principle, with security versus pandemic?
    They don’t want to introduce discrimination based on vaccine status YET, because not everyone has been offered a vaccine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,303
    A follow up to that “what’s your greatest weakness” interview answer…
    https://twitter.com/vtchakarova/status/1403120635883237379
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    Nigelb said:

    Note that those attacking May’s speech yesterday did so on the basis that it was sour grapes, rather than addressing the argument.
    @ping this morning is a honourable exception.

    Tories have become lazy with their ‘we won, so suck it up’ attitude.

    Also gloating about things too early and then being silent when they don't happen. Suddenly all very quiet on the we will open up this summer whilst the rest of Europe is in lockdown, as the reverse looks more likely.

    The government should get a lot of credit if they do stand up to the zero covid arguments, and latitude if that goes wrong, but that does not seem to be what they are briefing the media. Expect a few restrictions to be eased, most to remain in place and then another review in 3-5 weeks. The problem is whatever risks we see now, are unlikely to not still be risks in 3-5 weeks time.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    IanB2 said:

    I think one thing that needs to be examined is, if the government does not deliver on the 21st June, what scale of protests both passive and active may we see? Speaking to a friend who is in the police, they're concerned there may be a number of issues if any delay happens.

    The devil may be in the detail. Provided the government does not reimpose any restrictions, any postponement will probably be greeted with a resigned shrug. Weddings are a grey area, since many couples will already have made arrangements on the current timetable, though the mood music has been that, whatever else happens, the weddings rules will still be relaxed.
    I am not so sure. People have had enough, both of the restrictions, and of the ever-changing myriad of petty rules, guidance and messaging, and ever-changing dates.
    If you think morale will plummet when June 21st gets taken away, imagine what it's going to be like when it's April 2022, normal life has returned everywhere else in Europe, and we're still stuck in these wretched fucking masks being bullied and harassed and prodded about wherever we go.

    I think that the Government can get away with stalling once, BUT it will have to nominate a date (no later than the start of the school holidays) for letting us out of jail and then stick to it. Otherwise, the suspicion will (rightly IMHO) take root that the Zero Covidiots have taken over the asylum and this is never going to end.

    It's also a matter of self-preservation for them. There simply aren't nearly enough shit-scared Covid hermits amongst the electorate to insulate the Government from the electoral consequences of collapsing public confidence, and the mass destruction of the hospitality trade that will happen if venues have to operate at fractional capacity for another year.
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited June 2021
    Re. the last thread, I'm on the LibDems at 20-1 with a £10 bet but I fully expect to lose my money. Sadly. It would be great to shake the tories out of their complacency.

    Perhaps this is the answer for Labour. Sometimes when armies have gone on the attack abroad the answer is to march into their own undefended capital. Might Labour do the same now? If Boris wishes to ape Labour and take their vote up north, let Labour ape the tories: unashamedly seize the south working in co-operation with the LibDems. It may not be that difficult for Starmer to produce policies which appeal to southern, remain, areas that are uneasy at the Alf Garnett vote steal by Boris and chums.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    May is wrong. Governments do not give freedom, but they can take them away.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Nigelb said:

    Note that those attacking May’s speech yesterday did so on the basis that it was sour grapes, rather than addressing the argument.
    @ping this morning is a honourable exception.

    Tories have become lazy with their ‘we won, so suck it up’ attitude.

    Also gloating about things too early and then being silent when they don't happen. Suddenly all very quiet on the we will open up this summer whilst the rest of Europe is in lockdown, as the reverse looks more likely.

    The government should get a lot of credit if they do stand up to the zero covid arguments, and latitude if that goes wrong, but that does not seem to be what they are briefing the media. Expect a few restrictions to be eased, most to remain in place and then another review in 3-5 weeks. The problem is whatever risks we see now, are unlikely to not still be risks in 3-5 weeks time.
    And hence the Summer is vaporised, and at the end of it the Autumn excuses (booster jabs, flu, crap weather, schools, kids' jabs, etc. etc.) are deployed and we're kept locked up for another six months. As OGH says, it looks like our politicians (and Sturgeon and Drakeford are both at least as bad as Johnson) are power crazed and enjoying beating people up.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Fpt
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cookie said:



    Counter-culture?

    Their counter-culture is now The Culture so to be counter-culture today they'd need to be arguing for extremist nonsense like treating people as individuals as they come, accepting the realities of natural biology, conserving our heritage, and weird "out there" stuff like that.

    No, you're thinking of the so-called woke stuff that Leon always goes on about. Green counter-culture is wearing recycled clothes, veganism, not having a car, soft drugs, that sort of thing.
    You sure? Caroline Lucas for one seems keen never to be knowingly outwoked.
    Out of curiousity why do greens never bemoan the loss of valuable resources by burning or burying bodies. Even if we don't want to eat them pigs would.
    These resources aren't lost though. Nutrients are reabsorbed into soil and/or eaten by worms etc.
    Indeed, there is a method of woodland burial much favoured by greenness which speeds this process up, using nutrients from dead bodies to nourish woodlands, thereby supporting wildlife etc.
    cremated bodies pretty much are lost
    The carbon in our bodies is combined with O2 in the air to make CO2, which is essential food for plants.
    I thought co2 in the atmosphere was meant to be a bad thing.....maybe I misunderstood
    Well that's a whole new can of worms!

    Burning a human body in that respect is no more environmentally harmful than burning a bonfire. Your carbon is all 'current' carbon. The reason burning fuels like coal is harmful is that this is 'historically carbon being returned to the atmosphere far too abruptly.
    Actually, I think it's the case that the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is tremendously good news for plants and is resulting in regreening in areas like the fringes of the Sahara.
    A new balance will be found, and the planet will be fine. Whether humans will still have a a place on it is another matter!
    Well greens I believe are against wood burning stoves too which is like a bonfire of current carbon
    The problem with wood burning stoves is the particulates in the smoke.
    Cremations dont produce particulates?
    I think that the high temperature of cremation ovens greatly reduces particulates.

    Not that I am an advocate of cremations. Woodland burial of the remains of my body for me, after the anatomy dept of my Medical School are finished with it.
    I don't think they'll ever find my body, which should preserve an element of mystery.
    Like that Canadian Bitcoin guy?

    😜
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    Jonathan said:

    May is wrong. Governments do not give freedom, but they can take them away.

    But only to the extent that the people will obey the government. My dad tells me that the pub he goes to has stopped worrying and let’s people go to the bar and masks are not worn at all.

    What’s interesting is that those worrying about cases aren’t demanding that we rollback the unlocking.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156
    edited June 2021

    Nigelb said:

    Note that those attacking May’s speech yesterday did so on the basis that it was sour grapes, rather than addressing the argument.
    @ping this morning is a honourable exception.

    Tories have become lazy with their ‘we won, so suck it up’ attitude.

    Also gloating about things too early and then being silent when they don't happen. Suddenly all very quiet on the we will open up this summer whilst the rest of Europe is in lockdown, as the reverse looks more likely.

    The government should get a lot of credit if they do stand up to the zero covid arguments, and latitude if that goes wrong, but that does not seem to be what they are briefing the media. Expect a few restrictions to be eased, most to remain in place and then another review in 3-5 weeks. The problem is whatever risks we see now, are unlikely to not still be risks in 3-5 weeks time.
    And hence the Summer is vaporised, and at the end of it the Autumn excuses (booster jabs, flu, crap weather, schools, kids' jabs, etc. etc.) are deployed and we're kept locked up for another six months. As OGH says, it looks like our politicians (and Sturgeon and Drakeford are both at least as bad as Johnson) are power crazed and enjoying beating people up.
    I am not sure it is a power trip, I think its more a failure to understand and tolerate risk. Quite similar to parents who won't let their kids walk to school, or be at home on their own at twice the age they could do those things themselves growing up for fear of something bad happening. Not realising by restricting their freedom to grow up at a natural pace something bad is happening.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173

    Nigelb said:

    Note that those attacking May’s speech yesterday did so on the basis that it was sour grapes, rather than addressing the argument.
    @ping this morning is a honourable exception.

    Tories have become lazy with their ‘we won, so suck it up’ attitude.

    Also gloating about things too early and then being silent when they don't happen. Suddenly all very quiet on the we will open up this summer whilst the rest of Europe is in lockdown, as the reverse looks more likely.

    The government should get a lot of credit if they do stand up to the zero covid arguments, and latitude if that goes wrong, but that does not seem to be what they are briefing the media. Expect a few restrictions to be eased, most to remain in place and then another review in 3-5 weeks. The problem is whatever risks we see now, are unlikely to not still be risks in 3-5 weeks time.
    And hence the Summer is vaporised, and at the end of it the Autumn excuses (booster jabs, flu, crap weather, schools, kids' jabs, etc. etc.) are deployed and we're kept locked up for another six months. As OGH says, it looks like our politicians (and Sturgeon and Drakeford are both at least as bad as Johnson) are power crazed and enjoying beating people up.
    That is overstating things. Politicians - particularly these ones - are slow to understand how the world is changing around them - and have become over-used to so many meetings in which they have debated whether we are all allowed to meet up with five other people or six.

    And their biggest fear is of having to reverse direction once we are unlocked - arising from yet more rash promises from our loose tongued PM - the consequence of which is a stultifying excess of caution. The irony is that the timetable we are on was seen as over-cautious back when it was announced, as other countries are already ahead of us in terms of reopening hospitality and travel.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    ping said:

    I disagree with the header.

    It’s impotent rage from the double-vaxxed.

    The govt needs another couple of months, at least, to finish the jabbing before we can talk about reopening to the world.

    Patience, Theresa.

    What are the criteria that you will accept getting back to normal with? Because there will always be risks of a new wave, new variants, and mitigating actions we could take with a couple of extra months.

    At an absolute minimum we need to establish a clear set of criteria, that can be met in real life (not potential risk of new variants for example), that will allow a return to normal life.
    Which we won't get. After all the adults have been double-dosed the goalposts will simply be shifted again, first to kids, then to booster jabs, and always with the Sword of Damocles of new variant panic hovering over everybody's head. The essential argument that people will never be able to travel abroad again if we slam the nation's gates shut at the first sign of every new mutation of the bloody Plague is correct. We'll end up like Australia. We'll still be isolated in 2030.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Obviously because of simple supply and demand.

    Let me break it down for you?

    UK = Demand > Supply
    USA = Supply < Demand

    To sort this the government authorises younger ages. Simple.
    I think that's right. The UK needs to get it's act together vis a vis supply, the US, demand.
    Supply gets sorted in time, demand.... less so
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    tlg86 said:

    Jonathan said:

    May is wrong. Governments do not give freedom, but they can take them away.

    But only to the extent that the people will obey the government. My dad tells me that the pub he goes to has stopped worrying and let’s people go to the bar and masks are not worn at all.

    What’s interesting is that those worrying about cases aren’t demanding that we rollback the unlocking.
    The ISAGE lunatics have indeed told us that we will have to have another complete lockdown if cases aren't brought back down.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223

    tlg86 said:

    Jonathan said:

    May is wrong. Governments do not give freedom, but they can take them away.

    But only to the extent that the people will obey the government. My dad tells me that the pub he goes to has stopped worrying and let’s people go to the bar and masks are not worn at all.

    What’s interesting is that those worrying about cases aren’t demanding that we rollback the unlocking.
    The ISAGE lunatics have indeed told us that we will have to have another complete lockdown if cases aren't brought back down.
    I’m surprised they aren’t calling for a circuit breaker now.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,844
    edited June 2021
    A touch of hyperbole from Mr Smithson . Geoffrey Howe's speech was way ahead of May.

    I don't blame Boris for being ultra cautious, imagine the outcry if early relaxation led to a third wave of the virus.. unthinkable..
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    In the US, children 12-18 can get vaccinated, and are doing so at a rapid clip. Why isn't the UK doing the same? Is it due to shortage, or other factors?

    Because take-up is much lower in the US.
    According to New York Times, in USA vax doses administered = 92 per 100 people, in UK = 104 per 100.

    According to Bloomberg COVID Tracker, in USA fully vaxed = 42.6%, in UK = 43.2%

    It's a fact that some states in US are lower; vax coverage ((pop divided by doses I think) in Mississippi = 31.5% compared with Vermont = 67.2% (and WA State = 54.3%). For total US = 47.7%, for UK = 52.2%

    So while UK is ahead of US it is NOT by leaps & bounds. And of course there are also regional variations in UK, as documented on PB.

    Though our vaxing of teenagers versus UK not (or not much) so far, does mean that gap between US adult vax rate and UK is higher than for % of total pop.
    Rather than quote numbers on a single day, look at the rate of increase.
    Which is?
    Look at the charts: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    You could just cite the numbers, like this
    US = 0.33 per 100, UK = 0.72 per 100

    True, a sizable gap. But isn't part of this fact that higher % of current jabs in US (esp. among older adults) are #2, compared with #1?
    Again, you are quoting numbers on a single day and not looking at the rate, which is decreasing for the US. It's obvious take-up is lower, the US is on 50% of people given at least one vaccine, and they've already opened it up to children.
    Why not cite the numbers instead of saying mine are not the correct ones to discuss? Might save time!
    Because I'm citing the shape of the curve, not a single number. Notice how the US and UK were level pegging, and then the US starts to level off? That, in combination with vaccination being opened to children, implies take-up is significantly lower in the US than in the UK. Which brings us back to your original question, why are children being vaccinated in the US and not the UK.

    https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Metric=Vaccine+doses&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~GBR
    Obviously because of simple supply and demand.

    Let me break it down for you?

    UK = Demand > Supply
    USA = Supply < Demand

    To sort this the government authorises younger ages. Simple.
    I think that's right. The UK needs to get it's act together vis a vis supply, the US, demand.
    Supply gets sorted in time, demand.... less so
    There are many many countries in the world will never reach the level of vaccination protection that we have at the moment. It puts into perspective the line that “we are in a race against time - vaccine vs variant”...

    It’s a manufactured race that may just be tiring us out for no good reason.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    The UK is doing far better than the USA currently, look at the death rates right now in both.
    The one thing the UK has screwed up on is not putting India on the red list. Combined with the amber list being very much a middle class only quarantine on return and a proportionately large Indian diaspora has created great conditions for seeding delta.
    The other issue is the missing of the boat for more Pfizer orders.
    Travel is tricky, I think the double vaxxed should get an easier time mind and we ought to have South America, India, Africa on a red list but could probably do all of Europe and the USA on double vaxxed green.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 23,156

    A touch of hyperbole from Mr Smithson . Geoffrey Howe's speech was way ahead of May.

    I don't blame Boris for being ultra cautious, imagine the outcry if early relaxation led to a third wave of the virus.. unthinkable..

    So when can we get back to normal, because relaxation, whether on June 21st, September 21st, 2022, 2025, or 2030 will carry the risk of another wave of the virus?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    My children’s school is undergoing a major outbreak impacting kids and teachers. Definitely a concern and some unknowns. I suspect similar things are happening all over the place. Vaccines should help, but ‘should’ is carrying a lot of weight considering what we have seen in previous outbreaks. Being cautious seems not unreasonable when you look at potential costs vs, potential benefits.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,173

    A touch of hyperbole from Mr Smithson . Geoffrey Howe's speech was way ahead of May.

    I don't blame Boris for being ultra cautious, imagine the outcry if early relaxation led to a third wave of the virus.. unthinkable..

    But the honest, mature (and actual) position is that, if some unforeseen event like a new vaccine-resistant variant emerges, we will have a third wave and will have to impose new restrictions. Whatever government says.

    It is the PM’s idiotic desire to please that finds us in the position where keeping us locked up is better for the government than giving us parole.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,955
    edited June 2021

    A touch of hyperbole from Mr Smithson . Geoffrey Howe's speech was way ahead of May.

    I don't blame Boris for being ultra cautious, imagine the outcry if early relaxation led to a third wave of the virus.. unthinkable..

    So when can we get back to normal, because relaxation, whether on June 21st, September 21st, 2022, 2025, or 2030 will carry the risk of another wave of the virus?
    Touch of hyperbole ("hyper-bowl"), there.

    Even if we wait for 75/75 or similar, it is only days or weeks.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,170
    IanB2 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Note that those attacking May’s speech yesterday did so on the basis that it was sour grapes, rather than addressing the argument.
    @ping this morning is a honourable exception.

    Tories have become lazy with their ‘we won, so suck it up’ attitude.

    Also gloating about things too early and then being silent when they don't happen. Suddenly all very quiet on the we will open up this summer whilst the rest of Europe is in lockdown, as the reverse looks more likely.

    The government should get a lot of credit if they do stand up to the zero covid arguments, and latitude if that goes wrong, but that does not seem to be what they are briefing the media. Expect a few restrictions to be eased, most to remain in place and then another review in 3-5 weeks. The problem is whatever risks we see now, are unlikely to not still be risks in 3-5 weeks time.
    And hence the Summer is vaporised, and at the end of it the Autumn excuses (booster jabs, flu, crap weather, schools, kids' jabs, etc. etc.) are deployed and we're kept locked up for another six months. As OGH says, it looks like our politicians (and Sturgeon and Drakeford are both at least as bad as Johnson) are power crazed and enjoying beating people up.
    That is overstating things. Politicians - particularly these ones - are slow to understand how the world is changing around them - and have become over-used to so many meetings in which they have debated whether we are all allowed to meet up with five other people or six.

    And their biggest fear is of having to reverse direction once we are unlocked - arising from yet more rash promises from our loose tongued PM - the consequence of which is a stultifying excess of caution. The irony is that the timetable we are on was seen as over-cautious back when it was announced, as other countries are already ahead of us in terms of reopening hospitality and travel.
    Sturgeon & Drakeford also have little control over two big elements of a Covid response, entry from abroad and the turning on & off of Covid financial support. Rightly or wrongly this probably adds to the natural cautiousness of (I think) both of them. BJ, being a stranger to caution except when it comes to his intense self interest, blunders about like a bull in a china shop when he has to employ it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,811

    A touch of hyperbole from Mr Smithson . Geoffrey Howe's speech was way ahead of May.

    I don't blame Boris for being ultra cautious, imagine the outcry if early relaxation led to a third wave of the virus.. unthinkable..

    It doesn’t matter if there is another wave of the virus, as long as that doesn’t lead to another mass wave of hospitalisations and deaths.

    So far, it isn’t. Almost everyone getting seriously ill is in groups that could have had the vaccine and failed to do so. I am afraid my sympathy for these people is wearing thin.

    Have we any advance on the figure of four who have died despite being double jabbed? That’s where my sympathy would be. But equally, on a national level such small numbers are no reason to delay unlocking. That’s statistically likely to end up as a smaller proportion than of drivers who die in road accidents.
This discussion has been closed.