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Will the controls all be lifted on June 21st? Now there’s a betting market – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited June 2021 in General
imageWill the controls all be lifted on June 21st? Now there’s a betting market – politicalbetting.com

There is little doubt that the big political story between now and June 21st when the final COVID controls are due to be lifted will be whether there will be a deferment. Smarkets have now got a betting market up with deferment currently at 1.51 and the timetable being followed at 2.26. These are the rules:

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    1st
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270
    Second!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,834
    edited June 2021
    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconcievable.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    A tricky market. What happens if the rules continue in amended form? For example if no limits on numbers, but masks and social distancing continues?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconcievable.

    Given that Bolton hospitalisations peaked at less than a third of the winter's its already been proven wrong.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,735
    Foxy said:

    A tricky market. What happens if the rules continue in amended form? For example if no limits on numbers, but masks and social distancing continues?

    This is what is likely to happen imo, some restrictions will be removed, some delayed and some will stay in place.

    And smarkets both trade the market for themselves and decide which way to settle an ambiguous situation.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,373
    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    O/T What's happened to our much-lauded vaccination programme?

    Germany, Italy and France are all vaccinating at a higher rate than the UK now. Are we still supply constrained?

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations#how-many-covid-19-vaccine-doses-are-administered-daily

    The collapse in the US vaccination rate is quite extraordinary. In many (Southern) states, vaccination has ground to a complete halt.
    Yes, I noticed that too. The US seems to be at 50% 1st dose and 41% two doses. Is it running into a maximum take-up percentage of say 50-60%?
    Quite probably - the max take-up issue will be the next critical issue, around the world.

    Incidentally, the UK will pass the US in terms of highest percentage of population vaccinated next week.

    It is worth noting that at the current rate of progress in the UK - first doses 0.35% of population, second 0.68% - we reach 95% of the adult population at the end of July.
    And yet, it's still disappointing we haven't been able to up the vaccination rate. Most of my nephews and nieces are still waiting for their first jab, and very keen to have it.
    Production rates. In a documentary that was done on the vaccine supply chain setup, one of the key people was asked if they should try to double production - he said no, the system as a whole was quite fragile, depending on many interacting factors.

    I rather doubt we are going to get to 95% overall - though it would be nice.

    I am betting on a ceiling of 87% overall, I think.
    What are you using as the denominator for the UK adult population though. The NIMS, ONS, "ourworldindata", worldometers, UN all have differing numbers. Unhelpfully the ONS and NIMS data is dividided 16+ and nothing doing about the numbers of 16/17 yr olds.
    NIMS mostly - it is fairly easy to look at the proportion of 16 and 17 years olds in the population (using full ONS 2019, say) and create a multiplication factor to guesstimate the 18+ numbers
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,505
    8th.

    Better than Hamilton.
  • Options
    AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconcievable.

    It’s a bold claim but LiarSage is not really about truth and honesty. That her employer thinks her behaviour appropriate surprises me,
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097
    edited June 2021
    fpt for Gardenwalker


    An excellent list of top British tucker. I salute you

    Many still mock, in far flung lands, but Britain has a great wealth of native food and drink, from London dry gin (the gin and tonic!) to a perfect Stilton

    I have a theory that we feel unnecessarily self conscious about our food because we are neighbours to Spain, Italy and France, three of the greatest cuisines in the world. We compare ourselves and feel inadequate (wrongly, especially now), but that is our psychological inheritance

    You can see the same in reverse. French people are still self-conscious about their popular music. They deem it as inadequate, but theirs, and this is in part because they are neighbours to the UK, which has (until recently) probably had the best popular music in the world, bar maybe America

    British music is not what it was, nor is French food and wine
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    I'm a little curious that removal of restrictions is a choice only for the government.

    Wont supermarkets, as only one example, be able to require mask wearing to continue for a while if they want to ?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    No fly zone....

    Was Donald Trump wearing his pants BACKWARDS at rally? Former president's unusual attire drives critics wild as they joke he's entered the 'no-fly zone' and sparks comparisons to 90s hip-hop duo Kriss Kross

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9657667/Was-Donald-Trump-wearing-pants-BACKWARDS-rally.html
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconcievable.

    It’s a bold claim but LiarSage is not really about truth and honesty. That her employer thinks her behaviour appropriate surprises me,
    What an idiot that woman is.


  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    alex_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconcievable.

    It’s a bold claim but LiarSage is not really about truth and honesty. That her employer thinks her behaviour appropriate surprises me,
    What an idiot that woman is.


    Challenging Sunetra Gupta for the dunce cap......who is still trying to claim herd immunity for hit last summer.
  • Options
    gettingbettergettingbetter Posts: 476
    edited June 2021
    Of course they will stick to 21 June. There were 500 a day dying in December, now it is 5. We are very nearly at the stage, as the great RCS point out, that the virus will fall away quite rapidly. The only reason why it is actually rising quite fast at the moment is that people are no longer frightened and have returned to near normal activity, a little bit ahead of when the degree of vaccination was consistent with that and the virus still falling.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,505
    Off topic.

    Another perhaps strange legal case. A gender critical feminist activist charged with alleged hate crime in Scotland wrt transgender / gay people, under the Malicious Communciations Act.

    As far as I can see, it relates to an allegedly hateful tweet or two, but seems potentially to involve a picture of a pink 'suffragette' ribbon on twitter being mistaken for a picture of a noose, and a complaint being made.

    The name of the person charged is Marion Millar.

    I won't say any more here beyond this bare summary due to the no comment on live legal action policy, but one to watch.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    Challenging Sunetra Gupta for the dunce cap......who is still trying to claim herd immunity for hit last summer.

    What? What does she think happened over the winter?

  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,505
    edited June 2021
    19th.

    Still better than Hamilton.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097
    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,205
    Hancock: "hospitalisations are broadly flat"

    Zero covid loons: "That can't be right"
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I'm trying hard not to follow it, but what with avoiding that and stories about aliens, it's increasingly difficult whilst filtering for other topics on the site.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,604
    Surely even Bozo wouldn't make a decision to prioritise winning a by election ahead of controlling the virus?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,834
    Leon said:

    fpt for Gardenwalker


    An excellent list of top British tucker. I salute you

    Many still mock, in far flung lands, but Britain has a great wealth of native food and drink, from London dry gin (the gin and tonic!) to a perfect Stilton

    I have a theory that we feel unnecessarily self conscious about our food because we are neighbours to Spain, Italy and France, three of the greatest cuisines in the world. We compare ourselves and feel inadequate (wrongly, especially now), but that is our psychological inheritance

    You can see the same in reverse. French people are still self-conscious about their popular music. They deem it as inadequate, but theirs, and this is in part because they are neighbours to the UK, which has (until recently) probably had the best popular music in the world, bar maybe America

    British music is not what it was, nor is French food and wine

    I think you’d have to give France, Italy, and Spain the edge over us, when it comes to food. It’s a long time since I’ve holidayed in France, and I’ve only had one recent holiday in Spain, but I’ve spent plenty of time in Italy, and had only one poor meal, which was memorable for that reason.

    But, that doesn’t mean our food is bad.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021

    Hancock: "hospitalisations are broadly flat"

    Zero covid loons: "That can't be right"

    Of course not. Because this is inconsistent with the "worst case" SAGE modelling. In some ways it's quite ironic how "Indie SAGE" appear to be sourcing all their information for "actual SAGE". I thought they were offering themselves as an independent counter voice?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    glw said:

    Challenging Sunetra Gupta for the dunce cap......who is still trying to claim herd immunity for hit last summer.

    What? What does she think happened over the winter?

    We don’t hear much about COVID dark matter or whatever bollocks that was anymore, do we?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,910
    MattW said:

    Off topic.

    Another perhaps strange legal case. A gender critical feminist activist charged with alleged hate crime in Scotland wrt transgender / gay people, under the Malicious Communciations Act.

    As far as I can see, it relates to an allegedly hateful tweet or two, but seems potentially to involve a picture of a pink 'suffragette' ribbon on twitter being mistaken for a picture of a noose, and a complaint being made.

    The name of the person charged is Marion Millar.

    I won't say any more here beyond this bare summary due to the no comment on live legal action policy, but one to watch.

    That is Scotland today unfortunately
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021
    glw said:

    Challenging Sunetra Gupta for the dunce cap......who is still trying to claim herd immunity for hit last summer.

    What? What does she think happened over the winter?

    Arhh you see the herd immunity level is not static, and the level you need to have herd immunity in the winter goes up....and we hadn't quite met that, hence the outbreak....

    I believe is what she now claims.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,270
    Rawnsley:

    It is anyway harder for government business managers to play the “be loyal to the government” card when it is led by Boris Johnson, a man with his own revolting history. The government has a choice to make. It can obdurately refuse to budge, at the risk of a humiliating defeat on Monday, or it can decide to retreat with as much dignity as it can muster.

    The compromise that the rebels would accept is a cast-iron commitment to restore the aid budget from next year. The alternative is for the prime minister and chancellor to insist on trying to carry on with cuts that are as unnecessary and indefensible as they are damaging to the poorest people on the planet, Britain’s influence in the world and our global reputation.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,561

    No fly zone....

    Was Donald Trump wearing his pants BACKWARDS at rally? Former president's unusual attire drives critics wild as they joke he's entered the 'no-fly zone' and sparks comparisons to 90s hip-hop duo Kriss Kross

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9657667/Was-Donald-Trump-wearing-pants-BACKWARDS-rally.html

    Already debunked. (Check out actual footage, via link in this analysis.)

    Snoopes.com - No, Trump Did Not Wear His Pants Backwards at Rally
    You asked, so we watched the 90-minute speech.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-wear-pants-backwards/
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    Surely even Bozo wouldn't make a decision to prioritise winning a by election ahead of controlling the virus?

    What is good for the Tory party is good for the country.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097
    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I'm trying hard not to follow it, but what with avoiding that and stories about aliens, it's increasingly difficult whilst filtering for other topics on the site.
    With all due respect, why would you NOT follow the Source of Covid Story, and the Aliens Story?


    They are by far the biggest stories of the moment, dwarfing even the chances of the Lib Dems in Batley and Spen!

    If a lab leak is proved (at least beyond reasonable doubt), it could cause a Cold War: China v the West. Even a Hot War

    If aliens are here, human civilisation is upended

    I suspect both have some betting implications
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I don't think that we will ever know the origin, as there is no objective source of information that is credible to the world. Even when there is, it is hard to prove causation eg ebola, HIV or BSE. Some things are just unknowable.

    Personally, I would like to see Chinese wet markets closed down. They are an offence against animals, and particularly against threatened species. If the Chinese were serious then they should do that.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    No fly zone....

    Was Donald Trump wearing his pants BACKWARDS at rally? Former president's unusual attire drives critics wild as they joke he's entered the 'no-fly zone' and sparks comparisons to 90s hip-hop duo Kriss Kross

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9657667/Was-Donald-Trump-wearing-pants-BACKWARDS-rally.html

    Already debunked. (Check out actual footage, via link in this analysis.)

    Snoopes.com - No, Trump Did Not Wear His Pants Backwards at Rally
    You asked, so we watched the 90-minute speech.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-wear-pants-backwards/
    The good news is though, that you know that the story will drive Trump absolutely (even more) nuts!
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,347
    IanB2 said:

    Rawnsley:

    It is anyway harder for government business managers to play the “be loyal to the government” card when it is led by Boris Johnson, a man with his own revolting history. The government has a choice to make. It can obdurately refuse to budge, at the risk of a humiliating defeat on Monday, or it can decide to retreat with as much dignity as it can muster.

    The compromise that the rebels would accept is a cast-iron commitment to restore the aid budget from next year. The alternative is for the prime minister and chancellor to insist on trying to carry on with cuts that are as unnecessary and indefensible as they are damaging to the poorest people on the planet, Britain’s influence in the world and our global reputation.

    Revolting journalism too. Perry nasty way to speak about the Prime Minister. It is the fecking (assumed to be) Observer..
  • Options
    PJHPJH Posts: 485

    I'm a little curious that removal of restrictions is a choice only for the government.

    Wont supermarkets, as only one example, be able to require mask wearing to continue for a while if they want to ?

    They will. But not if they want my custom
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021
    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I'm trying hard not to follow it, but what with avoiding that and stories about aliens, it's increasingly difficult whilst filtering for other topics on the site.
    With all due respect, why would you NOT follow the Source of Covid Story, and the Aliens Story?


    They are by far the biggest stories of the moment, dwarfing even the chances of the Lib Dems in Batley and Spen!

    If a lab leak is proved (at least beyond reasonable doubt), it could cause a Cold War: China v the West. Even a Hot War

    If aliens are here, human civilisation is upended

    I suspect both have some betting implications
    As in "there's no point in betting because money will become worthless as we revert to bartering"?

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,205
    alex_ said:

    Hancock: "hospitalisations are broadly flat"

    Zero covid loons: "That can't be right"

    Of course not. Because this is inconsistent with the "worst case" SAGE modelling. In some ways it's quite ironic how "Indie SAGE" appear to be sourcing all their information for "actual SAGE". I thought they were offering themselves as an independent counter voice?
    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,269
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I don't think that we will ever know the origin, as there is no objective source of information that is credible to the world. Even when there is, it is hard to prove causation eg ebola, HIV or BSE. Some things are just unknowable.

    Personally, I would like to see Chinese wet markets closed down. They are an offence against animals, and particularly against threatened species. If the Chinese were serious then they should do that.
    That they haven't closed them down suggests that they don't believe the "market leak" theory.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    glw said:

    Challenging Sunetra Gupta for the dunce cap......who is still trying to claim herd immunity for hit last summer.

    What? What does she think happened over the winter?

    Arhh you see the herd immunity level is not static, and the level you need to have herd immunity in the winter goes up....and we hadn't quite met that, hence the outbreak....

    I believe is what she now claims.
    So her expertise leads her to believe that herd immunity is reached in the lulls, and lost in the waves. Hmmm.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021
    glw said:

    glw said:

    Challenging Sunetra Gupta for the dunce cap......who is still trying to claim herd immunity for hit last summer.

    What? What does she think happened over the winter?

    Arhh you see the herd immunity level is not static, and the level you need to have herd immunity in the winter goes up....and we hadn't quite met that, hence the outbreak....

    I believe is what she now claims.
    So her expertise leads her to believe that herd immunity is reached in the lulls, and lost in the waves. Hmmm.
    I know...quite a theory...

    Professor Sunetra Gupta: Neil Ferguson should debate lockdown with me

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekgF5kmoEdI
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Gardenwalker


    An excellent list of top British tucker. I salute you

    Many still mock, in far flung lands, but Britain has a great wealth of native food and drink, from London dry gin (the gin and tonic!) to a perfect Stilton

    I have a theory that we feel unnecessarily self conscious about our food because we are neighbours to Spain, Italy and France, three of the greatest cuisines in the world. We compare ourselves and feel inadequate (wrongly, especially now), but that is our psychological inheritance

    You can see the same in reverse. French people are still self-conscious about their popular music. They deem it as inadequate, but theirs, and this is in part because they are neighbours to the UK, which has (until recently) probably had the best popular music in the world, bar maybe America

    British music is not what it was, nor is French food and wine

    I think you’d have to give France, Italy, and Spain the edge over us, when it comes to food. It’s a long time since I’ve holidayed in France, and I’ve only had one recent holiday in Spain, but I’ve spent plenty of time in Italy, and had only one poor meal, which was memorable for that reason.

    But, that doesn’t mean our food is bad.
    French food is in steep decline (from a great peak), Italian food is still pretty excellent but tourist hotspots are often terrible, Spanish food is often inspiring, but with huge variations

    Pre-Covid, 2019, if you walked into:

    A British gastropub

    A French bistro

    A foodie Spanish taverna

    An Italian trattoria

    Which would feed you best?

    Hard to say. The Brits would do OK, for sure.

    But Covid has changed everything, so we wait and see the new landscape
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Gardenwalker


    An excellent list of top British tucker. I salute you

    Many still mock, in far flung lands, but Britain has a great wealth of native food and drink, from London dry gin (the gin and tonic!) to a perfect Stilton

    I have a theory that we feel unnecessarily self conscious about our food because we are neighbours to Spain, Italy and France, three of the greatest cuisines in the world. We compare ourselves and feel inadequate (wrongly, especially now), but that is our psychological inheritance

    You can see the same in reverse. French people are still self-conscious about their popular music. They deem it as inadequate, but theirs, and this is in part because they are neighbours to the UK, which has (until recently) probably had the best popular music in the world, bar maybe America

    British music is not what it was, nor is French food and wine

    I think you’d have to give France, Italy, and Spain the edge over us, when it comes to food. It’s a long time since I’ve holidayed in France, and I’ve only had one recent holiday in Spain, but I’ve spent plenty of time in Italy, and had only one poor meal, which was memorable for that reason.

    But, that doesn’t mean our food is bad.
    The worst pizza I ever ate was in Ravenna. But that's not pizza country so I forgive them (and it was my friends who wanted to go to a pizzeria). One of the best meals I have ever had was in a restaurant in the hills above Arezzo one of those places with no menu, they just serve you with several courses, and wine ad lib. Divine.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    it's a fucking disgrace. He was 18
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    I dug around to find Ollie’s “offensive” tweets.
    They’re nothing more than scatological juvenilia.

    If Ollie can be cancelled, anyone can.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    alex_ said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconcievable.

    It’s a bold claim but LiarSage is not really about truth and honesty. That her employer thinks her behaviour appropriate surprises me,
    What an idiot that woman is.


    So "the crisis" we are in that she claimed on Ch4 news is actually a crisis that only exists on a SAGE modelling chart that is now been shown to be utterly wrong by actual real life?
    Yup, these doom models have real life consequences. Their garbage data and garbage models exist to keep us all locked up forever. The real world data has proved just how efficacious vaccines are. If the government delays unlockdown I fear we will never get the old normal back, the doom modellers will pump out more of their garbage and scare the government into waiting for the next milestone and the goal posts will just get moved every time we get close.

    We just have to do it and if over 50s unvaccinated die then it's a consequence of their own stupidity.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I don't think that we will ever know the origin, as there is no objective source of information that is credible to the world. Even when there is, it is hard to prove causation eg ebola, HIV or BSE. Some things are just unknowable.

    Personally, I would like to see Chinese wet markets closed down. They are an offence against animals, and particularly against threatened species. If the Chinese were serious then they should do that.
    That they haven't closed them down suggests that they don't believe the "market leak" theory.
    Yes, either that or they think it a risk worth taking.

    The sooner they are closed the better.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    Could he sue the ECB for unfair dismissal? Those Tweets were in the public domain when they took him on, so what's changed?
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,768
    MattW said:

    19th.

    Still better than Hamilton.

    No you're not, he was 15th
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,205

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    I dug around to find Ollie’s “offensive” tweets.
    They’re nothing more than scatological juvenilia.

    If Ollie can be cancelled, anyone can.
    "They came for the cricketers and I did nothing..."
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,660
    Reposted FPT (where I eventually realised I was the only one left):

    Apologies for raising the W-word on what appears to have otherwise been an evening free from the war-on-Woke but this article from Friday's Guardian got me thinking and is, I feel, well worth a read.

    The paradox it highlights is that Britain is a fundamentally conservative country, usually run by Conservative govenments, and yet over the past 70 years social attitudes have tranformed dramatically in a most un-conservative direction. Maybe it doesn't really matter what hue of government we elect?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/04/history-conservatives-social-change-britain
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,561
    NYT ($) - Democratic Report Raises 2022 Alarms on Messaging and Voter Outreach
    A new report, in perhaps the most thorough soul-searching done by either party this year, points to an urgent need for the party to present a positive economic agenda and rebut Republican misinformation.

    . . . . A review of the 2020 election, conducted by several prominent Democratic advocacy groups, has concluded that the party is at risk of losing ground with Black, Hispanic and Asian American voters unless it does a better job presenting an economic agenda and countering Republican efforts to spread misinformation and tie all Democratic candidates to the far left.

    The 73-page report, obtained by The New York Times, was assembled at the behest of three major Democratic interest groups: Third Way, a centrist think tank, and the Collective PAC and the Latino Victory Fund, which promote Black and Hispanic candidates. It appears to be the most thorough act of self-criticism carried out by Democrats or Republicans after the last campaign.

    The document is all the more striking because it is addressed to a victorious party: Despite their successes, Democrats had hoped to achieve more robust control of both chambers of Congress, rather than the ultra-precarious margins they enjoy.

    In part, the study found, Democrats fell short of their aspirations because many House and Senate candidates failed to match Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s support with voters of color who loathed Mr. Trump but distrusted the Democratic Party as a whole. Those constituencies included Hispanic voters in Florida and Texas, Vietnamese American and Filipino American voters in California, and Black voters in North Carolina.

    Overall, the report warns, Democrats in 2020 lacked a core argument about the economy and recovering from the coronavirus pandemic — one that might have helped candidates repel Republican claims that they wanted to “keep the economy shut down,” or worse. The party “leaned too heavily on ‘anti-Trump’ rhetoric,” the report concludes.

    “Win or lose, self-described progressive or moderate, Democrats consistently raised a lack of strong Democratic Party brand as a significant concern in 2020,” the report states. “In the absence of strong party branding, the opposition latched on to G.O.P. talking points, suggesting our candidates would ‘burn down your house and take away the police.’”

    SSI2 - here is link to the actual report (not sure if it is also behind paywall)

    https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/2020-postelection-analysis/871b6e27d1b7c544/full.pdf

  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Flu.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,352

    IanB2 said:

    Rawnsley:

    It is anyway harder for government business managers to play the “be loyal to the government” card when it is led by Boris Johnson, a man with his own revolting history. The government has a choice to make. It can obdurately refuse to budge, at the risk of a humiliating defeat on Monday, or it can decide to retreat with as much dignity as it can muster.

    The compromise that the rebels would accept is a cast-iron commitment to restore the aid budget from next year. The alternative is for the prime minister and chancellor to insist on trying to carry on with cuts that are as unnecessary and indefensible as they are damaging to the poorest people on the planet, Britain’s influence in the world and our global reputation.

    Revolting journalism too. Perry nasty way to speak about the Prime Minister. It is the fecking (assumed to be) Observer..
    At worst it is a pun: revolting history = history of revolting.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    I dug around to find Ollie’s “offensive” tweets.
    They’re nothing more than scatological juvenilia.

    If Ollie can be cancelled, anyone can.
    It isn't a secret he was a total bellend when he was 18/19, he has openly talked about to the media. Unless there is evidence that he continues to go around making immature, racist and sexist comments as a matter of course, its a totally unfair decision.

    I believe one of his Asian team mates came out when all this blew up and said he been nothing but a top bloke since he played here.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,921
    Leon said:

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    it's a fucking disgrace. He was 18
    I don’t really see that he said anything that bad. Incredible that almost a decade later we have Joe Root so serious & upset about it on tv, and Robinson gets banned. Who would have complained if the ECB had just said it was water under the bridge?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,834

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    I dug around to find Ollie’s “offensive” tweets.
    They’re nothing more than scatological juvenilia.

    If Ollie can be cancelled, anyone can.
    Quite. The ECB are being spiteful and craven in equal measure.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2021
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    it's a fucking disgrace. He was 18
    I don’t really see that he said anything that bad. Incredible that almost a decade later we have Joe Root so serious & upset about it on tv, and Robinson gets banned. Who would have complained if the ECB had just said it was water under the bridge?
    The ECB are also totally inconsistent, they continued to pick Alex Hales despite his bans for drugs, kicking a helpless bloke in the head and being an all round total dick for years...it was Morgan who finally said I am just not having him.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Something with a 10% mortality rate, that affects both the youngest and the oldest? That would be quite bad.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Sean_F said:

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    I dug around to find Ollie’s “offensive” tweets.
    They’re nothing more than scatological juvenilia.

    If Ollie can be cancelled, anyone can.
    Quite. The ECB are being spiteful and craven in equal measure.
    And his replacement is likely to be somebody banned for racially abusing an opposing player.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I don't think that we will ever know the origin, as there is no objective source of information that is credible to the world. Even when there is, it is hard to prove causation eg ebola, HIV or BSE. Some things are just unknowable.

    Personally, I would like to see Chinese wet markets closed down. They are an offence against animals, and particularly against threatened species. If the Chinese were serious then they should do that.
    Close the wet markets, AND prohibit "gain of function" research

    I shan't bore PBers understandably obsessed with the recent polling in Bodmin West, and a possible shift of Mebyon Kernow to fifth place to fourth, BUT the latest news on Lab Leak suggest Anthony Fauci might go to jail
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited June 2021
    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
    That's why we have booster shots on order for a third dose in September before winter. Waiting umtil then is intolerable. The most at risk people are people over 50 who have refused the vaccine, all of them can walk in to a vaccine centre and get jabbed if they want to. Even without an appointment they will be able to get one as the staff are helping people get their NHS number and will give them an on the day appointment to get it done there and then.

    However, on the main thrust of your question the ongoing Moderna long term trial shows that the Moderna vaccine (and likely Pfizer and probably AZ with our 8-12 week dosing gap) gives very high levels of immunity for 10 months at least if not much longer.

    If we let the zero COVID idiots win this time then we'll never get out from under. Every time we get close to freedom day they'll come up with some new garbage models and keep everyone locked up. They're authoritarians who want to impose their love of lockdowns on the rest of us. If they want to stay at home and wear masks all the time that's their business. Now that the over 50s are almost all double jabbed the reason for keeping any restrictions are over.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,660
    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Here's what a really bad pandemic looks like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

    We have in many ways been remarkably lucky with Covid; the fatality rate could be a lot worse with the next pandemic.
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,010
    alex_ said:

    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Flu.
    Specifically the 1889-90 Russian or Asiatic flu, which may have actually been a coronavirus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889–1890_pandemic?wprov=sfla1
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    alex_ said:

    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Flu.
    A fair answer, and my gut feeling is could get to something like the level of the Spanish Flu, but I wonder how probable that is. I'm sure there must be people thinking about this, I'm just curious to see what they have to say.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
    That's why we have booster shots on order for a third dose in September before winter. Waiting umtil then is intolerable. The most at risk people are people over 50 who have refused the vaccine, all of them can walk in to a vaccine centre and get jabbed if they want to. Even without an appointment they will be able to get one as the staff are helping people get their NHS number and will give them an on the day appointment to get it done there and then.

    However, on the main thrust of your question the ongoing Moderna long term trial shows that the Moderna vaccine (and likely Pfizer and probably AS with out 8-12 week dosing gap) gives very high levels of immunity for 10 months at least if not much longer.

    If we let the zero COVID idiots win this time then we'll never get out from under. Every time we get close to freedom day they'll come up with some new garbage models and keep everyone locked up. They're authoritarians who want to impose their love of lockdowns on the rest of us. If they want to stay at home and wear masks all the time that's their business. Now that the over 50s are almost all double jabbed the reason for keeping any restrictions are over.
    The problem is that the vaccine producers have a massive vested interest in underplaying the long term efficacy of their vaccines. It is very easy to foresee a scenario where the Government starts panicking later in the year and starts pro-actively moving to re-introduce restrictions until sufficient numbers are re-vaccinated. And i'm not sure that people will be so keen to go around again.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,660
    edited June 2021
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I don't think that we will ever know the origin, as there is no objective source of information that is credible to the world. Even when there is, it is hard to prove causation eg ebola, HIV or BSE. Some things are just unknowable.

    Personally, I would like to see Chinese wet markets closed down. They are an offence against animals, and particularly against threatened species. If the Chinese were serious then they should do that.
    Close the wet markets, AND prohibit "gain of function" research

    I shan't bore PBers understandably obsessed with the recent polling in Bodmin West, and a possible shift of Mebyon Kernow to fifth place to fourth, BUT the latest news on Lab Leak suggest Anthony Fauci might go to jail
    I was genuinely trying to remember if I'd heard of the political gossip site LabLeak before, and then wondering why they were dishing the dirt on Fauci...
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    glw said:

    alex_ said:

    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Flu.
    A fair answer, and my gut feeling is could get to something like the level of the Spanish Flu, but I wonder how probable that is. I'm sure there must be people thinking about this, I'm just curious to see what they have to say.
    I was addressing it from the standpoint of the long term perspective. One of the annual flu strains that circulates the world every year is i believe directly descended from the Flu of 1918-20
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,114
    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I'm trying hard not to follow it, but what with avoiding that and stories about aliens, it's increasingly difficult whilst filtering for other topics on the site.
    With all due respect, why would you NOT follow the Source of Covid Story, and the Aliens Story?


    They are by far the biggest stories of the moment, dwarfing even the chances of the Lib Dems in Batley and Spen!

    If a lab leak is proved (at least beyond reasonable doubt), it could cause a Cold War: China v the West. Even a Hot War

    If aliens are here, human civilisation is upended

    I suspect both have some betting implications
    If it looks like a hot war, I'm hoping the aliens step in.

    "Now then lads, calm it down....."
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Two separate questions.

    What SARS-CoV-2 might do in the future, 5, 10 or 20 years ahead is be possibly something like the common cold.

    The issue with SARS-CoV-2 was its novel nature, meaning we had no immunity. Once everyone has immunity to it, then it might become like a general circulating common cold coronavirus, that people get exposed to first normally when young so they don't get especially ill from it.

    A really bad pandemic would be a different virus not this one, but would have many of the features of this one: novel (so no immunity), asymptomatic transmission, period of high infectivity before onset of symptoms etc - but combined with a more lethal impact if caught.

    On the other hand if it was more lethal, then people would probably lock down harder and faster than happened this time.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097
    In retrospect, this is an incredible interview with Fauci. Any PB-er with a brain should watch it.

    The Tweeter who forwards it is prone to conspiracy theories, but if you ban people from talking about entirely plausible shit, you are forced to rely on the lunatics for information. That's what happens when you censor

    https://twitter.com/LHatesYouALot/status/1401577063866327044?s=20
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    alex_ said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
    That's why we have booster shots on order for a third dose in September before winter. Waiting umtil then is intolerable. The most at risk people are people over 50 who have refused the vaccine, all of them can walk in to a vaccine centre and get jabbed if they want to. Even without an appointment they will be able to get one as the staff are helping people get their NHS number and will give them an on the day appointment to get it done there and then.

    However, on the main thrust of your question the ongoing Moderna long term trial shows that the Moderna vaccine (and likely Pfizer and probably AS with out 8-12 week dosing gap) gives very high levels of immunity for 10 months at least if not much longer.

    If we let the zero COVID idiots win this time then we'll never get out from under. Every time we get close to freedom day they'll come up with some new garbage models and keep everyone locked up. They're authoritarians who want to impose their love of lockdowns on the rest of us. If they want to stay at home and wear masks all the time that's their business. Now that the over 50s are almost all double jabbed the reason for keeping any restrictions are over.
    The problem is that the vaccine producers have a massive vested interest in underplaying the long term efficacy of their vaccines. It is very easy to foresee a scenario where the Government starts panicking later in the year and starts pro-actively moving to re-introduce restrictions until sufficient numbers are re-vaccinated. And i'm not sure that people will be so keen to go around again.
    If hospitalisations aren't going up then I don't see how they could do it pre-emptively. The most likely scenario is that the long term protection with vaccines will turn COVID into a mild cough for all but the most vulnerable in groups 1, 3 and 4 where an annual booster will be recommended by their doctors with group 2 being given it for spread prevention and groups 5-9 being contacted as well. I doubt people in groups 10-12 will have it recommended but it may be an option to have it privately through their workplace or private healthcare provider.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I don't think that we will ever know the origin, as there is no objective source of information that is credible to the world. Even when there is, it is hard to prove causation eg ebola, HIV or BSE. Some things are just unknowable.

    Personally, I would like to see Chinese wet markets closed down. They are an offence against animals, and particularly against threatened species. If the Chinese were serious then they should do that.
    That they haven't closed them down suggests that they don't believe the "market leak" theory.
    A very good point
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited June 2021

    Reposted FPT (where I eventually realised I was the only one left):

    Apologies for raising the W-word on what appears to have otherwise been an evening free from the war-on-Woke but this article from Friday's Guardian got me thinking and is, I feel, well worth a read.

    The paradox it highlights is that Britain is a fundamentally conservative country, usually run by Conservative govenments, and yet over the past 70 years social attitudes have tranformed dramatically in a most un-conservative direction. Maybe it doesn't really matter what hue of government we elect?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/04/history-conservatives-social-change-britain

    It does in the sense that most of the major social changes of that time did not come in under the Tories.

    For example, homosexuality and abortion were legalised under Wilson's Labour government and contraception also made available on the NHS under Labour then too and civil partnerships came in under the Blair government and even gay marriage came in only under a Tory-LD coalition government with most Tory MPs voting against.

    Tories may come to accept social change but as conservatives they do not drive it.

    It is also Labour councils leading consultations on removing statues for being unwoke, not Tory ones and this Tory government is also trying to restrict their ability to do so
  • Options
    AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337

    ‘Ollie’s learned a hard lesson,’ said the England captain. It’s unacceptable what he’s done. He’s fronted up to the dressing-room and the world, and shown remorse,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9658009/Ollie-Robinson-suspended-international-cricket.html

    No wonder some people now have an approach of never apologising for anything. 10 years ago, you lose your job, you rebuild your career, you play for England, it comes back up again, you say sorry, and they throw you under the bus.

    I dug around to find Ollie’s “offensive” tweets.
    They’re nothing more than scatological juvenilia.

    If Ollie can be cancelled, anyone can.
    I know of a couple of law firms which search through prospective trainees online history to see if they put into print anything beyond magnolia. I doubt that this is uncommon.

    Our kids know that saying anything beyond bland nods to convention is something that is oral, not written, it will be a lesser society as a result as bland conformism or the right sort of (conformist) rebellion are the corporate choices,
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,205

    glw said:

    glw said:

    Challenging Sunetra Gupta for the dunce cap......who is still trying to claim herd immunity for hit last summer.

    What? What does she think happened over the winter?

    Arhh you see the herd immunity level is not static, and the level you need to have herd immunity in the winter goes up....and we hadn't quite met that, hence the outbreak....

    I believe is what she now claims.
    So her expertise leads her to believe that herd immunity is reached in the lulls, and lost in the waves. Hmmm.
    I know...quite a theory...

    Professor Sunetra Gupta: Neil Ferguson should debate lockdown with me

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekgF5kmoEdI
    As I understand it seasonal coronaviruses can result in transient immunity. So it doesn't seem that odd a thing to say.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599

    Reposted FPT (where I eventually realised I was the only one left):

    Apologies for raising the W-word on what appears to have otherwise been an evening free from the war-on-Woke but this article from Friday's Guardian got me thinking and is, I feel, well worth a read.

    The paradox it highlights is that Britain is a fundamentally conservative country, usually run by Conservative govenments, and yet over the past 70 years social attitudes have tranformed dramatically in a most un-conservative direction. Maybe it doesn't really matter what hue of government we elect?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/04/history-conservatives-social-change-britain

    A good article. I liked the penultimate paragraph in particular. It seems that the War on Wokery has long precedent:

    Defoe (or Hazlitt) once said that there were a hundred thousand stout country-fellows in his time ready to fight to the death against popery, without knowing whether popery was a man or a horse
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,582
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I don't think that we will ever know the origin, as there is no objective source of information that is credible to the world. Even when there is, it is hard to prove causation eg ebola, HIV or BSE. Some things are just unknowable.

    Personally, I would like to see Chinese wet markets closed down. They are an offence against animals, and particularly against threatened species. If the Chinese were serious then they should do that.
    Close the wet markets, AND prohibit "gain of function" research

    I shan't bore PBers understandably obsessed with the recent polling in Bodmin West, and a possible shift of Mebyon Kernow to fifth place to fourth, BUT the latest news on Lab Leak suggest Anthony Fauci might go to jail
    Why might he go to jail?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
    That's why we have booster shots on order for a third dose in September before winter. Waiting umtil then is intolerable. The most at risk people are people over 50 who have refused the vaccine, all of them can walk in to a vaccine centre and get jabbed if they want to. Even without an appointment they will be able to get one as the staff are helping people get their NHS number and will give them an on the day appointment to get it done there and then.

    However, on the main thrust of your question the ongoing Moderna long term trial shows that the Moderna vaccine (and likely Pfizer and probably AZ with our 8-12 week dosing gap) gives very high levels of immunity for 10 months at least if not much longer.

    If we let the zero COVID idiots win this time then we'll never get out from under. Every time we get close to freedom day they'll come up with some new garbage models and keep everyone locked up. They're authoritarians who want to impose their love of lockdowns on the rest of us. If they want to stay at home and wear masks all the time that's their business. Now that the over 50s are almost all double jabbed the reason for keeping any restrictions are over.
    Max, I was wondering a question for potential future pandemics and you might be the best person to ask.

    Its said that Moderna's mRNA vaccine took two days to develop, but then obviously it needed months of trials etc before it could be given out to people.

    If in the future there's another pandemic for an as or more serious novel virus and we were to need to go into a lockdown, given the UK is likely to have vaccine manufacturing capacity domestically, would it be possible to be in a position to manufacture enough vaccines to vaccinate everyone vulnerable at least by the time the trial gives positive results.

    IE have the MHRA give the green light in the future and have 80 million or so doses in the freezer/fridge ready and waiting to go immediately?
  • Options
    AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    RobD said:

    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Something with a 10% mortality rate, that affects both the youngest and the oldest? That would be quite bad.
    Something that, in broad terms, hits hardest those other than in God’s waiting room?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Reposted FPT (where I eventually realised I was the only one left):

    Apologies for raising the W-word on what appears to have otherwise been an evening free from the war-on-Woke but this article from Friday's Guardian got me thinking and is, I feel, well worth a read.

    The paradox it highlights is that Britain is a fundamentally conservative country, usually run by Conservative govenments, and yet over the past 70 years social attitudes have tranformed dramatically in a most un-conservative direction. Maybe it doesn't really matter what hue of government we elect?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/04/history-conservatives-social-change-britain

    Remember the modern Tories combine followers of Burke (“change to conserve”) and fans of Macauley (“reform to preserve”). It’s not really surprising - they are very good at navigating the long flow
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097
    Good God, it gets worse

    Fauci, Daszak, Andersen, several members of the Wellcome Trust: all going to prison


    "Andersen's letter was perhaps even more effective in shaping the narrative than Daszak's letter. Fauci famously cited it while standing next to Trump on Apr 17, omitting that he himself was involved in instigating it even feigning not to know Andersen."

    https://twitter.com/HansMahncke/status/1401580722574528521
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,373
    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
    My understanding is that there are various on going studies - bot into practical effectiveness (vaccination vs hospitalisation and death) and things like antibody levels.

    Further that the government is planning on an autumn booster shot campaign for the whole adult population - on the basis that the cost of having it and not needing it is tiny vs the cost of needing it and no having it.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
    That's why we have booster shots on order for a third dose in September before winter. Waiting umtil then is intolerable. The most at risk people are people over 50 who have refused the vaccine, all of them can walk in to a vaccine centre and get jabbed if they want to. Even without an appointment they will be able to get one as the staff are helping people get their NHS number and will give them an on the day appointment to get it done there and then.

    However, on the main thrust of your question the ongoing Moderna long term trial shows that the Moderna vaccine (and likely Pfizer and probably AZ with our 8-12 week dosing gap) gives very high levels of immunity for 10 months at least if not much longer.

    If we let the zero COVID idiots win this time then we'll never get out from under. Every time we get close to freedom day they'll come up with some new garbage models and keep everyone locked up. They're authoritarians who want to impose their love of lockdowns on the rest of us. If they want to stay at home and wear masks all the time that's their business. Now that the over 50s are almost all double jabbed the reason for keeping any restrictions are over.
    Max, I was wondering a question for potential future pandemics and you might be the best person to ask.

    Its said that Moderna's mRNA vaccine took two days to develop, but then obviously it needed months of trials etc before it could be given out to people.

    If in the future there's another pandemic for an as or more serious novel virus and we were to need to go into a lockdown, given the UK is likely to have vaccine manufacturing capacity domestically, would it be possible to be in a position to manufacture enough vaccines to vaccinate everyone vulnerable at least by the time the trial gives positive results.

    IE have the MHRA give the green light in the future and have 80 million or so doses in the freezer/fridge ready and waiting to go immediately?
    @Charles is probably better informed than me on this stuff. I know the scenario you describe is within the remit of the VTF, whether or not it is going to happen I'm not sure.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    RobD said:

    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Something with a 10% mortality rate, that affects both the youngest and the oldest? That would be quite bad.
    Something that, in broad terms, hits hardest those other than in God’s waiting room?
    Though there's a certain irony that if the young were hit hardest, then they'd stay at home better, so they wouldn't spread the virus in the first place.

    Telling young people "there's a virus out there that won't harm you so stay at home" is a bit of a difficult message to always be listened to.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Leon said:

    Good God, it gets worse

    Fauci, Daszak, Andersen, several members of the Wellcome Trust: all going to prison


    "Andersen's letter was perhaps even more effective in shaping the narrative than Daszak's letter. Fauci famously cited it while standing next to Trump on Apr 17, omitting that he himself was involved in instigating it even feigning not to know Andersen."

    https://twitter.com/HansMahncke/status/1401580722574528521

    You just make yourself look all the more crazy when you share conspiracy theory Tweets while banging on about Fauci going to prison. Not going to happen, any more than aliens landing. 😕

    There might be something to it being a lab leak, but it does the theory little credit to be banging on about Fauci going to prison and other claptrap. Tars everything as being insane when you do that.
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    alex_ said:

    glw said:

    I guess the SAGE worst case modelling was so utterly worst case that even indie SAGE couldn't find a way of being more pessimistic.

    I would like to see some medium to long term forecasts for what SARS-CoV-2 might do. I've not heard or read much about it, but there must be people thinking 5, 10, 20 years or more ahead. What does a really bad pandemic look like?
    Flu.
    I predict it mutates into a severe cold. A common cold coronavirus might be related to SARS-CoV-2 rather as SARS-CoV-2 relates to the deadly SARS-CoV-1 (2003).

    Similarly Asian flu 1957 and Hong Kong flu 1968 weakened over time as viruses do - under natural selection, they mostly become more infectious and less deadly - and the various strains became what we call 'seasonal flu'.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,604

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
    My understanding is that there are various on going studies - bot into practical effectiveness (vaccination vs hospitalisation and death) and things like antibody levels.

    Further that the government is planning on an autumn booster shot campaign for the whole adult population - on the basis that the cost of having it and not needing it is tiny vs the cost of needing it and no having it.
    There's a third dose trial underway in West Yorkshire.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT, for the epidemiologist who is predicting more hospitalisations than in January to be correct, one would have to assume that vaccines are in fact, largely ineffective against COVID. I find that inconceivable.

    Agreed - the one thing we don't yet know is the longevity of the efficacy of the two vaccinations.

    It's been barely 6 months since the first vaccination was administered in the UK so the logistical triumph is clear for all to see.

    However, advance three or four months and what are September/October looking like? It seems inconceivable Covid will disappear and as summer ends and life returns indoors, the threat of a renewed wave of the virus is obvious.

    Will this matter? Not if those vaccinated continue to be afforded high levels of protection but we don't know if that will be the case so the Government has purchased enough additional vaccinations to give everyone a third vaccination in the autumn.

    I presume there is a lot of monitoring of the efficacy of the various vaccines - by October, there will be other vaccines available - will we see, for example, those with Pfizer continuing to enjoy high levels of protection while those with AZ will be less well off and might need a booster either of AZ or of J&J or Moderna or some other vaccine?

    None of this is an argument for a re-imposition of restrictions per se - the only rationale would be a variant or new virus against which all current vaccines are ineffective. It's plausible but unlikely. I could envisage, if it were shown those with AZ for example were seeing their levels of protection diminish, a prioritised programme of booster vaccinations beginning in the autumn.
    That's why we have booster shots on order for a third dose in September before winter. Waiting umtil then is intolerable. The most at risk people are people over 50 who have refused the vaccine, all of them can walk in to a vaccine centre and get jabbed if they want to. Even without an appointment they will be able to get one as the staff are helping people get their NHS number and will give them an on the day appointment to get it done there and then.

    However, on the main thrust of your question the ongoing Moderna long term trial shows that the Moderna vaccine (and likely Pfizer and probably AZ with our 8-12 week dosing gap) gives very high levels of immunity for 10 months at least if not much longer.

    If we let the zero COVID idiots win this time then we'll never get out from under. Every time we get close to freedom day they'll come up with some new garbage models and keep everyone locked up. They're authoritarians who want to impose their love of lockdowns on the rest of us. If they want to stay at home and wear masks all the time that's their business. Now that the over 50s are almost all double jabbed the reason for keeping any restrictions are over.
    Max, I was wondering a question for potential future pandemics and you might be the best person to ask.

    Its said that Moderna's mRNA vaccine took two days to develop, but then obviously it needed months of trials etc before it could be given out to people.

    If in the future there's another pandemic for an as or more serious novel virus and we were to need to go into a lockdown, given the UK is likely to have vaccine manufacturing capacity domestically, would it be possible to be in a position to manufacture enough vaccines to vaccinate everyone vulnerable at least by the time the trial gives positive results.

    IE have the MHRA give the green light in the future and have 80 million or so doses in the freezer/fridge ready and waiting to go immediately?
    @Charles is probably better informed than me on this stuff. I know the scenario you describe is within the remit of the VTF, whether or not it is going to happen I'm not sure.
    Interesting. Good to know it is something they're thinking about and not just how to get us out of this one.

    Especially given how well the VTF have done at every other stage, if the VTF are investigating this then hopefully they've got a good answer for that too.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    On topic, Labour says it could support the government if it keeps some restrictions beyond June 21st.

    Leaving the way clear for ReformUK to be the only main party committed to keeping June 21st as 'Freedom Day' if Boris retains some restrictions beyond that date

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1401655641756811268?s=20
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,604
    There'll be a significant proportion of the population with their fingers crossed hoping that the government extends the advice to WFH where possible.
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    gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Leon said:

    alex_ said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I'm trying hard not to follow it, but what with avoiding that and stories about aliens, it's increasingly difficult whilst filtering for other topics on the site.
    With all due respect, why would you NOT follow the Source of Covid Story, and the Aliens Story?


    They are by far the biggest stories of the moment, dwarfing even the chances of the Lib Dems in Batley and Spen!

    If a lab leak is proved (at least beyond reasonable doubt), it could cause a Cold War: China v the West. Even a Hot War

    If aliens are here, human civilisation is upended

    I suspect both have some betting implications
    If it looks like a hot war, I'm hoping the aliens step in.

    "Now then lads, calm it down....."
    Aliens with fuzzy perms and Liverpool accents - they have been hiding in plain sight all this time.

    The main item definitely not going to be lifted on 21st is the directive to WFH, the government have signalled as such to make it a good bet, all to do with hit on R rate already over 1 on 21st.

    Masks indoors and 2 metre rule I would say 50/50 to be lifted on 21st, though that is not such a great shock based on government hints that it seems business v scientist lobby not on same page.

    What definitely won’t be harmed is travelling distances to go to domestic holiday destinations. If hospitalisations join infections on up curve, this one is probably the biggest risk the government will take.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,097
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    This is pretty significant, if you're following the Source of Covid story

    One of the main virologists defending the "natural origins" thesis is K G Anderson

    Weirdly enough, he mentioned a possible "engineered" aspect to the virus to Anthony Fauci, in a FOIA'd email back in January 2020. Four days later he was on board with natural zoonosis, 100%, with no obvious data interim to change his mind. Why?

    Who knows. But ever since he has been furiously denouncing "lab leak" and presenting concepts for "wet market" - or whatever

    Until this week. For the last few hours he has been deleting tweets en masse, and now he has deleted his entire account, as citizen journalists probe what he has said

    It's a cover up. It came from the lab. Enough

    "Kristian G. Anderson in a January 31, 2020 email to Anthony Fauci:

    “…Eddie, Bob, Mike and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory.”

    The hypocrisy of these people is simply stunning."


    https://twitter.com/BretWeinstein/status/1400107600889319424?s=20

    I don't think that we will ever know the origin, as there is no objective source of information that is credible to the world. Even when there is, it is hard to prove causation eg ebola, HIV or BSE. Some things are just unknowable.

    Personally, I would like to see Chinese wet markets closed down. They are an offence against animals, and particularly against threatened species. If the Chinese were serious then they should do that.
    Close the wet markets, AND prohibit "gain of function" research

    I shan't bore PBers understandably obsessed with the recent polling in Bodmin West, and a possible shift of Mebyon Kernow to fifth place to fourth, BUT the latest news on Lab Leak suggest Anthony Fauci might go to jail
    Why might he go to jail?
    The evidence now is this:

    1. Fauci funded gain of function research in Wuhan on bat coronaviruses (he admits this), he gave it directly to Daszak who has explicitly said Wuhan was manufacturing new, more virulent SARS-like viruses

    2. Fauci did this without telling Trump (because Obama had banned it, as dangerous)

    3. When the news of the virus broke, Fauci was told: in an email: this virus was very possibly engineered, in Wuhan (via "gain of function")

    4. Fauci convened, over the next weekend, everyone he knew, to come out with a different story: it had to be natural zoonosis, not the lab (personally inverting the evidence of his scientists).

    Now, it is possible Fauci believed this, but he had no new evidence to suddenly say this, other than his desire to get a different narrative "out there"

    5. Fauci thereafter contradicted Trump, and Fauci said "lab leak" was clownish, even as the evidence of lab-leak remained, and then surged

    6. Fauci in the last week suddenly changes his mind. Lab leak is possible


    He PAID for the gain-of-function research, Fauci is culpable for Covid, and he knows it
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,582
    HYUFD said:

    On topic, Labour says it could support the government if it keeps some restrictions beyond June 21st.

    Leaving the way clear for ReformUK to be the only main party committed to keeping June 21st as 'Freedom Day' if Boris retains some restrictions beyond that date

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1401655641756811268?s=20

    I wouldn't be surprised if Reform are on 5% in the polls pretty soon. At the moment they're on about 2-3%.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    30 Tory rebels now committed to vote with the opposition and against the government on overseas aid cuts and more have privately promised support, making a government defeat likely now

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1401657007015346177?s=20
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Completely O/T it is increasingly astonishing what this "audit" is being allowed to get away with in Arizona. It appears that private companies are basically being given full access to voter data, ballot papers and ability to link the two - effectively if they so wished to build up a complete picture of how everyone in Maricopa county voted. It is no more and no less than the abolition of the secret ballot.

    Of course there has always been the theoretical ability to determine how individuals voted - via linking individuals to the number on their ballot - but the hurdles to being allowed to do this are presumably significant. Requiring prima facie evidence of fraud and a court order to allow it to happen. None of which is happening here, it appears...
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