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The Chancellor’s controversial letter to Chesham and Amersham voters – politicalbetting.com

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The idea that it is somehow critical that the Tories hold their 82 majority as opposed to slipping back to 80 is a bit of a stretch. The reality is that unlike a minority government or even a 1992 government gradually losing power this government is totally dominant in the Commons and indeed in the polls as we saw yesterday. In these circumstances Rishi is somewhat overstating things but its the sort of thing that everyone does in elections. I believe its called politics, a weird past time really.

    Good morning everyone. Let's hope we have some play at Lords today, and at Chelmsford, although I fear Essex' chance of retaining the Championship has been washed away.

    On topic, in yesterday's Guardian, Katy Balls was suggesting that 'the Tory rebellion on aid shows Johnson’s support is a mile wide and an inch deep,' and maybe Rishi's letter is a demonstration of a realisation of that.
    If longstanding MP's in the Home Counties start to fear their careers might be under threat support for Johnson might weaken.
    After all, he's not there because he's liked or admired, or, indeed, I suspect, trusted; he's there because he's seen as a winner and if that goes he's in trouble.
    More wishful thinking by Boris's opponents. I get the feeling that he is going to be "lucky" in C&A once again. Comfortably so.
    A 'reasonably comfortable' win in C&A wouldn't be 'lucky'; it'd be no more than expected.
    If the Tory doesn't win 'reasonably comfortably' alarm bells will ring.

    And, as was pointed out elsewhere ....lived here since 2013 definitely wouldn't make one a 'local' in this neck of the woods.
    But it is the essential LibDem gamebook - anyone who hasn't had seven generations born and died in the constituency will get tarred with the " incomer" brushed. If you do meet that hurdle, you will be fought with the "entitled oppressor" label. Who made their money from slavery. Probably.

    The LibDems are fast becoming the go to party of Home Counties snobs and NIMBYs. Margot Leadbetter would now be a LibDem. As would Hyacinth Bucket.

    That’s nothing!
    Hermann Goering would now be a Tory. As would Dr Crippen.

    And Vlad the Impaler would have voted Brexit, though admittedly for sovereignty reasons rather than immigration per se.
    Vlad the Impaler was particularly opposed to Turkish immigration as I recall...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Here is what we have done wrong. In no particular order. And it's not exhaustive.

    1. Failing to vaccinate sufficiently quickly. The rollout over the past month has been weak to poor. We have been jabbing around 100-150k 1st jabs per day. This is WOEFULLY inadequate.

    2. Delaying 2nd jabs. As I suggested, it's becoming clear that 1 jab is insufficient protection against the Indian variant and that it is adept at side-stepping those people. We should have stepped up both 1st and 2nd jabs, 24/7 with at least 1 million a day. We have been complacent.

    3. Refusing to see through vaccine passports. The only way to defeat this is to use vaccine passports. Allowing c. 12,000 fans to travel to Portugal on the basis only of tests is the kind of stupidity which we showed Spring 2020. Why was this permitted? Because Johnson is weak. He should have stood up to his recalcitrant backbenchers and told them simply and straight that, 'You wanna travel? You show your jabs. End of.' That's a very small price to pay for freedom.

    4. The entire thrust should be vaccinations. And, again, more controversially that means that if you have been double jabbed you should be completely free to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. A vaccine pass is a very very very small price to pay in exchange for that and we should have resisted all those who whinged about it and who now have far fewer freedoms as a result.

    This is very similar to what I have been saying. The vaccination effort for the last month has been woeful, 567k yesterday is still not nearly enough. Excuse after excuse has been given, its a weekend, its a bank holiday, its a week with a bank holiday in it and people are away, etc etc.

    There are 2 possibilities. Either we simply do not have enough vaccine because some of our anticipated supplies have fallen through or we are meeting widespread vaccine resistance/indifference. Both of these are alarming and it is astonishing that more attention is not being paid to them.

    If it is the former the government needs to move heaven and earth to get some more. If it is the latter the government should be loud and clear that this is the most important thing you can do for your health right now and nothing is more important. They should also be looking at evening clinics, smaller mobile clinics, going to workplaces, going to schools for 18 year olds before they break up, whatever it takes. Now. Immediately. Action this day. This is urgent and becoming more so by the day.
    They need to end the age restriction and just leet anyone over 18 have it. Sure there will be holdouts that need further campaigns but jab the willing ASAP.

    Vax rates in Leicester are poor, so we are going to get another wave. 58% first dose, 35% double dose here, in part because of the young population in the city.

    I'd like to see that now, too. The difference in medical risk for someone aged 18 versus aged 28 appears negligible.
    But I guess the concern would be overload on the booking system, and a lot of dissatisfaction if the programme were thrown open to all adults, before the numbers are down to a level at which they could cope?
    In Leicester anyone over 18 can get it as a drop in, though I think that unofficial, with a Nelson like blind eye turned.

    A few queues might create a bit of hype to get the campaign going. In any case other countries are doing so without problems, most of the USA and France for example any adult can book.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Here is what we have done wrong. In no particular order. And it's not exhaustive.

    1. Failing to vaccinate sufficiently quickly. The rollout over the past month has been weak to poor. We have been jabbing around 100-150k 1st jabs per day. This is WOEFULLY inadequate.

    2. Delaying 2nd jabs. As I suggested, it's becoming clear that 1 jab is insufficient protection against the Indian variant and that it is adept at side-stepping those people. We should have stepped up both 1st and 2nd jabs, 24/7 with at least 1 million a day. We have been complacent.

    3. Refusing to see through vaccine passports. The only way to defeat this is to use vaccine passports. Allowing c. 12,000 fans to travel to Portugal on the basis only of tests is the kind of stupidity which we showed Spring 2020. Why was this permitted? Because Johnson is weak. He should have stood up to his recalcitrant backbenchers and told them simply and straight that, 'You wanna travel? You show your jabs. End of.' That's a very small price to pay for freedom.

    4. The entire thrust should be vaccinations. And, again, more controversially that means that if you have been double jabbed you should be completely free to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. A vaccine pass is a very very very small price to pay in exchange for that and we should have resisted all those who whinged about it and who now have far fewer freedoms as a result.

    This is very similar to what I have been saying. The vaccination effort for the last month has been woeful, 567k yesterday is still not nearly enough. Excuse after excuse has been given, its a weekend, its a bank holiday, its a week with a bank holiday in it and people are away, etc etc.

    There are 2 possibilities. Either we simply do not have enough vaccine because some of our anticipated supplies have fallen through or we are meeting widespread vaccine resistance/indifference. Both of these are alarming and it is astonishing that more attention is not being paid to them.

    If it is the former the government needs to move heaven and earth to get some more. If it is the latter the government should be loud and clear that this is the most important thing you can do for your health right now and nothing is more important. They should also be looking at evening clinics, smaller mobile clinics, going to workplaces, going to schools for 18 year olds before they break up, whatever it takes. Now. Immediately. Action this day. This is urgent and becoming more so by the day.
    The former is more likely. On the island we've had under-40s hopping up and down wanting to be vaccinated for three weeks now, with only the AZN on offer (which they are being refused) from the main vaccination site and no sense of urgency about getting some Pfizer in to deal with the backlog. The MP has just appeared from his slumber and is now promising resolution by "mid-June", which is good news, but hardly suggests anyone is rushing to get this done. Asked about the Moderna, we've simply been told "the Moderna isn't being given out on the island", which is hardly an answer.

    Shortage of supply is the most likely explanation, all the alternatives being less likely, and less attractive.
    Although you did just sack your Tory council… 😜

    (For the avoidance of doubt this is a joke)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    I told you yesterday that Johnson would move the goalposts for June 21st: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-govt-urged-to-lift-restrictions-in-pubs-as-reports-suggest-end-of-lockdown-may-be-delayed-12325185

    There's a lot of anger out there.

    I now reckon the LD's are a value bet for C&A and I have bet accordingly.

    Johnson hasn’t yet moved the goal posts.

    He may make a decision based on the data (or for whatever reason) that you don’t like.

    But at the moment it’s just various pressure groups and doomsters spinning their stories
    The numbers is hospital is the important statistic at this stage, and it’s barely moved even as case numbers have increased.
    What I have found really odd is that the numbers being admitted to hospital have increased sharply but as you say the number actually in hospital has been static. It suggests to me a change of approach by the NHS, perhaps the criteria for admission has been reduced as additional capacity has become available. Or maybe the treatments provided to people who get there are just more effective and quicker. It's definitely worth a look as we try to assess the risk of opening further.
    Or our kids are whining snowflakes who go to hospital at the first sign of a cough
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    edited June 2021
    On Corona, I'm not very convinced by all the flapping. I guess bits of it may have a basis. If facilities or output have been reduced,

    One thing that be more tricky will be for Boris to wonder about promises for redistribution of excess vaccines to other countries beyond what has been done. There seem to have been a lot of fake claims from various groups about 'hoarding of vaccines' in the UK, as if there were hundreds of millions sitting in warehouses in Oxford.

    On the numbers to me it seems to have been a Bank Holiday, quite like the last Bank Holiday. No real signs of a crippling slowing down; I'd agree that policy is too complex / implementation confused. Does anyone have different information (as opposed to shouting)? Long term average seems to running at 0.75% of pop per day.



    Interesting incoming from Brussels about opening up across countries, and for speculation from outriders demanding that the USA open up for double-vaccinated peeps. On the basis of the EU being at a 7-day case average of 70 or so (which give lower numbers than our usual 14-day figure).

    Not going to happen, when it is vastly varied and the EU central is trying to prevent the provinces properly controlling their own borders.


  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The idea that it is somehow critical that the Tories hold their 82 majority as opposed to slipping back to 80 is a bit of a stretch. The reality is that unlike a minority government or even a 1992 government gradually losing power this government is totally dominant in the Commons and indeed in the polls as we saw yesterday. In these circumstances Rishi is somewhat overstating things but its the sort of thing that everyone does in elections. I believe its called politics, a weird past time really.

    Good morning everyone. Let's hope we have some play at Lords today, and at Chelmsford, although I fear Essex' chance of retaining the Championship has been washed away.

    On topic, in yesterday's Guardian, Katy Balls was suggesting that 'the Tory rebellion on aid shows Johnson’s support is a mile wide and an inch deep,' and maybe Rishi's letter is a demonstration of a realisation of that.
    If longstanding MP's in the Home Counties start to fear their careers might be under threat support for Johnson might weaken.
    After all, he's not there because he's liked or admired, or, indeed, I suspect, trusted; he's there because he's seen as a winner and if that goes he's in trouble.
    More wishful thinking by Boris's opponents. I get the feeling that he is going to be "lucky" in C&A once again. Comfortably so.
    A 'reasonably comfortable' win in C&A wouldn't be 'lucky'; it'd be no more than expected.
    If the Tory doesn't win 'reasonably comfortably' alarm bells will ring.

    And, as was pointed out elsewhere ....lived here since 2013 definitely wouldn't make one a 'local' in this neck of the woods.
    But it is the essential LibDem gamebook - anyone who hasn't had seven generations born and died in the constituency will get tarred with the " incomer" brushed. If you do meet that hurdle, you will be fought with the "entitled oppressor" label. Who made their money from slavery. Probably.

    The LibDems are fast becoming the go to party of Home Counties snobs and NIMBYs. Margot Leadbetter would now be a LibDem. As would Hyacinth Bucket.

    That’s nothing!
    Hermann Goering would now be a Tory. As would Dr Crippen.

    And Vlad the Impaler would have voted Brexit, though admittedly for sovereignty reasons rather than immigration per se.
    I think you have that wrong. It's Labour who have the antisemitic problem, not the Tories.. so Hitler would have been Labour.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    I think the BBC downplayed Rishi/the UK’s role. We’ve being making the weather on this for years (as far back as Osborne) - needed a sensible POTUS to buy in (and well done Rishi for letting Biden “propose” the measure)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,931
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't think Sunak's warning is either unintentional or an indication of concern about losing the seat. The Conservatives have a adopted American style pork barrel as the way they intend to hold onto power. It is absolutely their pitch to the former Red Wall seats and something Houchen is very good at. Arguably the government's MO for Scotland too.

    Also something Putin has been very good at, a point not sufficiently acknowledged, I think. His problem is that money has been running out in Russia and his patronage with it. Increases in oil prices will probably help him.
    Singapore too. Maybe we are destined to be the Singapore of the West.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Here is what we have done wrong. In no particular order. And it's not exhaustive.

    1. Failing to vaccinate sufficiently quickly. The rollout over the past month has been weak to poor. We have been jabbing around 100-150k 1st jabs per day. This is WOEFULLY inadequate.

    2. Delaying 2nd jabs. As I suggested, it's becoming clear that 1 jab is insufficient protection against the Indian variant and that it is adept at side-stepping those people. We should have stepped up both 1st and 2nd jabs, 24/7 with at least 1 million a day. We have been complacent.

    3. Refusing to see through vaccine passports. The only way to defeat this is to use vaccine passports. Allowing c. 12,000 fans to travel to Portugal on the basis only of tests is the kind of stupidity which we showed Spring 2020. Why was this permitted? Because Johnson is weak. He should have stood up to his recalcitrant backbenchers and told them simply and straight that, 'You wanna travel? You show your jabs. End of.' That's a very small price to pay for freedom.

    4. The entire thrust should be vaccinations. And, again, more controversially that means that if you have been double jabbed you should be completely free to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. A vaccine pass is a very very very small price to pay in exchange for that and we should have resisted all those who whinged about it and who now have far fewer freedoms as a result.

    This is very similar to what I have been saying. The vaccination effort for the last month has been woeful, 567k yesterday is still not nearly enough. Excuse after excuse has been given, its a weekend, its a bank holiday, its a week with a bank holiday in it and people are away, etc etc.

    There are 2 possibilities. Either we simply do not have enough vaccine because some of our anticipated supplies have fallen through or we are meeting widespread vaccine resistance/indifference. Both of these are alarming and it is astonishing that more attention is not being paid to them.

    If it is the former the government needs to move heaven and earth to get some more. If it is the latter the government should be loud and clear that this is the most important thing you can do for your health right now and nothing is more important. They should also be looking at evening clinics, smaller mobile clinics, going to workplaces, going to schools for 18 year olds before they break up, whatever it takes. Now. Immediately. Action this day. This is urgent and becoming more so by the day.
    They need to end the age restriction and just leet anyone over 18 have it. Sure there will be holdouts that need further campaigns but jab the willing ASAP.

    Vax rates in Leicester are poor, so we are going to get another wave. 58% first dose, 35% double dose here, in part because of the young population in the city.

    I'd like to see that now, too. The difference in medical risk for someone aged 18 versus aged 28 appears negligible.
    But I guess the concern would be overload on the booking system, and a lot of dissatisfaction if the programme were thrown open to all adults, before the numbers are down to a level at which they could cope?
    In Leicester anyone over 18 can get it as a drop in, though I think that unofficial, with a Nelson like blind eye turned.

    A few queues might create a bit of hype to get the campaign going. In any case other countries are doing so without problems, most of the USA and France for example any adult can book.
    The youngsters being used to sitting on a website endlessly clicking refresh for anything worth having? ;)

    I remember in 2012 sitting on the Olympics website doing just that, probably over several hours, refreshing a page over and over that had no availability. Suddenly out of the blue a single ticket appeared for one of the evening athletics sessions, which I snapped up, and so I got to be there in the crowd the night when Bolt and the Jamaica team won their amazing relay world record....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Here is what we have done wrong. In no particular order. And it's not exhaustive.

    1. Failing to vaccinate sufficiently quickly. The rollout over the past month has been weak to poor. We have been jabbing around 100-150k 1st jabs per day. This is WOEFULLY inadequate.

    2. Delaying 2nd jabs. As I suggested, it's becoming clear that 1 jab is insufficient protection against the Indian variant and that it is adept at side-stepping those people. We should have stepped up both 1st and 2nd jabs, 24/7 with at least 1 million a day. We have been complacent.

    3. Refusing to see through vaccine passports. The only way to defeat this is to use vaccine passports. Allowing c. 12,000 fans to travel to Portugal on the basis only of tests is the kind of stupidity which we showed Spring 2020. Why was this permitted? Because Johnson is weak. He should have stood up to his recalcitrant backbenchers and told them simply and straight that, 'You wanna travel? You show your jabs. End of.' That's a very small price to pay for freedom.

    4. The entire thrust should be vaccinations. And, again, more controversially that means that if you have been double jabbed you should be completely free to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. A vaccine pass is a very very very small price to pay in exchange for that and we should have resisted all those who whinged about it and who now have far fewer freedoms as a result.

    This is very similar to what I have been saying. The vaccination effort for the last month has been woeful, 567k yesterday is still not nearly enough. Excuse after excuse has been given, its a weekend, its a bank holiday, its a week with a bank holiday in it and people are away, etc etc.

    There are 2 possibilities. Either we simply do not have enough vaccine because some of our anticipated supplies have fallen through or we are meeting widespread vaccine resistance/indifference. Both of these are alarming and it is astonishing that more attention is not being paid to them.

    If it is the former the government needs to move heaven and earth to get some more. If it is the latter the government should be loud and clear that this is the most important thing you can do for your health right now and nothing is more important. They should also be looking at evening clinics, smaller mobile clinics, going to workplaces, going to schools for 18 year olds before they break up, whatever it takes. Now. Immediately. Action this day. This is urgent and becoming more so by the day.
    The former is more likely. On the island we've had under-40s hopping up and down wanting to be vaccinated for three weeks now, with only the AZN on offer (which they are being refused) from the main vaccination site and no sense of urgency about getting some Pfizer in to deal with the backlog. The MP has just appeared from his slumber and is now promising resolution by "mid-June", which is good news, but hardly suggests anyone is rushing to get this done. Asked about the Moderna, we've simply been told "the Moderna isn't being given out on the island", which is hardly an answer.

    Shortage of supply is the most likely explanation, all the alternatives being less likely, and less attractive.
    Although you did just sack your Tory council… 😜

    (For the avoidance of doubt this is a joke)
    I seriously doubt that would have held up anything...

    (For the avoidance of doubt, this is not a joke)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,931

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    I don't think Sunak's warning is either unintentional or an indication of concern about losing the seat. The Conservatives have a adopted American style pork barrel as the way they intend to hold onto power. It is absolutely their pitch to the former Red Wall seats and something Houchen is very good at. Arguably the government's MO for Scotland too.

    Also something Putin has been very good at, a point not sufficiently acknowledged, I think. His problem is that money has been running out in Russia and his patronage with it. Increases in oil prices will probably help him.
    Singapore too. Maybe we are destined to be the Singapore of the West.
    The government already has form for this, channeling "levelling up" funds to areas with Conservative MPs, rather than the poorest areas.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/04/tories-accused-of-levelling-up-stitch-up-over-regional-deprivation-fund
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    Charles said:

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    I think the BBC downplayed Rishi/the UK’s role. We’ve being making the weather on this for years (as far back as Osborne) - needed a sensible POTUS to buy in (and well done Rishi for letting Biden “propose” the measure)
    Cue incoming from anti-business groups on how it is all a failure. They need to maintain their relevance to ensure their survival in a competitive world.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Here is what we have done wrong. In no particular order. And it's not exhaustive.

    1. Failing to vaccinate sufficiently quickly. The rollout over the past month has been weak to poor. We have been jabbing around 100-150k 1st jabs per day. This is WOEFULLY inadequate.

    2. Delaying 2nd jabs. As I suggested, it's becoming clear that 1 jab is insufficient protection against the Indian variant and that it is adept at side-stepping those people. We should have stepped up both 1st and 2nd jabs, 24/7 with at least 1 million a day. We have been complacent.

    3. Refusing to see through vaccine passports. The only way to defeat this is to use vaccine passports. Allowing c. 12,000 fans to travel to Portugal on the basis only of tests is the kind of stupidity which we showed Spring 2020. Why was this permitted? Because Johnson is weak. He should have stood up to his recalcitrant backbenchers and told them simply and straight that, 'You wanna travel? You show your jabs. End of.' That's a very small price to pay for freedom.

    4. The entire thrust should be vaccinations. And, again, more controversially that means that if you have been double jabbed you should be completely free to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. A vaccine pass is a very very very small price to pay in exchange for that and we should have resisted all those who whinged about it and who now have far fewer freedoms as a result.

    This is very similar to what I have been saying. The vaccination effort for the last month has been woeful, 567k yesterday is still not nearly enough. Excuse after excuse has been given, its a weekend, its a bank holiday, its a week with a bank holiday in it and people are away, etc etc.

    There are 2 possibilities. Either we simply do not have enough vaccine because some of our anticipated supplies have fallen through or we are meeting widespread vaccine resistance/indifference. Both of these are alarming and it is astonishing that more attention is not being paid to them.

    If it is the former the government needs to move heaven and earth to get some more. If it is the latter the government should be loud and clear that this is the most important thing you can do for your health right now and nothing is more important. They should also be looking at evening clinics, smaller mobile clinics, going to workplaces, going to schools for 18 year olds before they break up, whatever it takes. Now. Immediately. Action this day. This is urgent and becoming more so by the day.
    They need to end the age restriction and just leet anyone over 18 have it. Sure there will be holdouts that need further campaigns but jab the willing ASAP.

    Vax rates in Leicester are poor, so we are going to get another wave. 58% first dose, 35% double dose here, in part because of the young population in the city.

    I'd like to see that now, too. The difference in medical risk for someone aged 18 versus aged 28 appears negligible.
    But I guess the concern would be overload on the booking system, and a lot of dissatisfaction if the programme were thrown open to all adults, before the numbers are down to a level at which they could cope?
    In Leicester anyone over 18 can get it as a drop in, though I think that unofficial, with a Nelson like blind eye turned.

    A few queues might create a bit of hype to get the campaign going. In any case other countries are doing so without problems, most of the USA and France for example any adult can book.
    The youngsters being used to sitting on a website endlessly clicking refresh for anything worth having? ;)

    I remember in 2012 sitting on the Olympics website doing just that, probably over several hours, refreshing a page over and over that had no availability. Suddenly out of the blue a single ticket appeared for one of the evening athletics sessions, which I snapped up, and so I got to be there in the crowd the night when Bolt and the Jamaica team won their amazing relay world record....
    Awesome! That’s still the fastest human running race in history, nine years later.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    alex_ said:

    It is incorrect in my view to say that it is the vaccination rollout that is imperilling the lifting of restrictions. There, at present, continues to be not much evidence that the combination of delta variant/vaccine situation is causing any thing other than a wave of cases that may or may not (probably the former on the basis of places like Bolton) hit some sort of ceiling, without at any point causing any serious direct issues for hospital capacity or create abnormal levels of serious illness or deaths.

    To the extent that lifting of restrictions are imperilled, it is because the Govt seems to be changing the criteria for whatever reason and following almost a zero Covid policy (not for cases, but for things like hospitalisation (even mildly symptomatic hospitalisation which are quickly resolved). Maybe they are buying all the stuff about the NHS being on the bring of collapse due to “backlog” work etc - but if so that has grave implications for ever opening up fully or even for what happens if we have things like a winter flu crisis (now we know how “effective” lockdowns are).

    Because there is clearly a different narrative and powerful and influential “pro-lockdown” lobby in this country that isn’t getting similar traction elsewhere in the world. To take the most obvious comparative example - the USA - where the narrative is that Covid is now over as a thing to be controlled by restrictions, and it is now a personal responsibility thing to protect yourself with vaccines. They are consistently running death levels of 500 a day, ten times the levels that we are consistently running in this country. In fact much of Europe is similar, albeit they are still on their “reopening” roadmaps. But if we were even approaching those levels now we would probably be putting everything into reverse and shutting down businesses again.

    One other point about vaccines which may become relevant later in the year. Ironically it is in the vaccine producers interest to spread some doubts about the efficacy of their vaccines against all variants. They are probably eyeing up the “booster” programmes in the autumn as a big time to do more cashing in. It is a bit conspiratorial but it wouldn’t be surprising if they aren’t at all unhappy to see studies appearing in the press about “lower antibody response” etc to some variants. It all helps a narrative that helps them sell their next generation vaccines. But if this gets embedded at the heart of Govt I fear that we’ll either be extending or reintroducing restrictions later in the year as “concerns” start growing about numbers having booster vaccines. Especially now we’re increasingly establishing a precedent that vaccines are not just beneficial to the elderly/vulnerable but actually necessary for all, if the country is to live a life free of restrictions.

    Good post, we definitely have a different risk tolerance to most of the world. A key part of that is that the PM was too slow to act last year (especially in the autumn and winter) and is therefore both not trusted by half the public and also seems personally determined not to make the same mistake twice.

    Also high risk aversion is often a sign that things are ok. We are a country that has historically had high levels of household debt, the majority are either reducing that or adding to savings, whilst the harsh economic reality of lockdown has only hit a small proportion so far. Many are happy with how things are and live in a fantasy that it can continue indefinitely.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The idea that it is somehow critical that the Tories hold their 82 majority as opposed to slipping back to 80 is a bit of a stretch. The reality is that unlike a minority government or even a 1992 government gradually losing power this government is totally dominant in the Commons and indeed in the polls as we saw yesterday. In these circumstances Rishi is somewhat overstating things but its the sort of thing that everyone does in elections. I believe its called politics, a weird past time really.

    Good morning everyone. Let's hope we have some play at Lords today, and at Chelmsford, although I fear Essex' chance of retaining the Championship has been washed away.

    On topic, in yesterday's Guardian, Katy Balls was suggesting that 'the Tory rebellion on aid shows Johnson’s support is a mile wide and an inch deep,' and maybe Rishi's letter is a demonstration of a realisation of that.
    If longstanding MP's in the Home Counties start to fear their careers might be under threat support for Johnson might weaken.
    After all, he's not there because he's liked or admired, or, indeed, I suspect, trusted; he's there because he's seen as a winner and if that goes he's in trouble.
    More wishful thinking by Boris's opponents. I get the feeling that he is going to be "lucky" in C&A once again. Comfortably so.
    A 'reasonably comfortable' win in C&A wouldn't be 'lucky'; it'd be no more than expected.
    If the Tory doesn't win 'reasonably comfortably' alarm bells will ring.

    And, as was pointed out elsewhere ....lived here since 2013 definitely wouldn't make one a 'local' in this neck of the woods.
    But it is the essential LibDem gamebook - anyone who hasn't had seven generations born and died in the constituency will get tarred with the " incomer" brushed. If you do meet that hurdle, you will be fought with the "entitled oppressor" label. Who made their money from slavery. Probably.

    The LibDems are fast becoming the go to party of Home Counties snobs and NIMBYs. Margot Leadbetter would now be a LibDem. As would Hyacinth Bucket.

    There was me thinking the first and most obvious political lesson of Trump and Brexit was don't insult millions of wavering voters who normally end up returning to your party..........but keep going, the country needs some political balance to return.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The idea that it is somehow critical that the Tories hold their 82 majority as opposed to slipping back to 80 is a bit of a stretch. The reality is that unlike a minority government or even a 1992 government gradually losing power this government is totally dominant in the Commons and indeed in the polls as we saw yesterday. In these circumstances Rishi is somewhat overstating things but its the sort of thing that everyone does in elections. I believe its called politics, a weird past time really.

    Good morning everyone. Let's hope we have some play at Lords today, and at Chelmsford, although I fear Essex' chance of retaining the Championship has been washed away.

    On topic, in yesterday's Guardian, Katy Balls was suggesting that 'the Tory rebellion on aid shows Johnson’s support is a mile wide and an inch deep,' and maybe Rishi's letter is a demonstration of a realisation of that.
    If longstanding MP's in the Home Counties start to fear their careers might be under threat support for Johnson might weaken.
    After all, he's not there because he's liked or admired, or, indeed, I suspect, trusted; he's there because he's seen as a winner and if that goes he's in trouble.
    More wishful thinking by Boris's opponents. I get the feeling that he is going to be "lucky" in C&A once again. Comfortably so.
    A 'reasonably comfortable' win in C&A wouldn't be 'lucky'; it'd be no more than expected.
    If the Tory doesn't win 'reasonably comfortably' alarm bells will ring.

    And, as was pointed out elsewhere ....lived here since 2013 definitely wouldn't make one a 'local' in this neck of the woods.
    But it is the essential LibDem gamebook - anyone who hasn't had seven generations born and died in the constituency will get tarred with the " incomer" brushed. If you do meet that hurdle, you will be fought with the "entitled oppressor" label. Who made their money from slavery. Probably.

    The LibDems are fast becoming the go to party of Home Counties snobs and NIMBYs. Margot Leadbetter would now be a LibDem. As would Hyacinth Bucket.

    What a silly post, which contradicts itself, not that I would encourage anyone to waste time studying it.
    You know when people are really thin-skinned. They yelp at the smallest of splinters...

    When defending their majority of 4,000 in 2015, the LibDems tried this "incomer, carpet-bagger" wank on conservative candidate Kevin Foster. Despite his father having painted warships in Devonport. And his grandparents having had a butchers shop in Torquay. It's just the shit that they ladle out at every election.

    Kevin Foster now has a majority of nearly 18,000.

    I just hope that Labour puts out a "only Labour can beat the Tories in C&A" leaflet - using the 2017 result! That would be fair game.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    IanB2 said:



    The former is more likely. On the island we've had under-40s hopping up and down wanting to be vaccinated for three weeks now, with only the AZN on offer (which they are being refused) from the main vaccination site and no sense of urgency about getting some Pfizer in to deal with the backlog. The MP has just appeared from his slumber and is now promising resolution by "mid-June", which is good news, but hardly suggests anyone is rushing to get this done. Asked about the Moderna, we've simply been told "the Moderna isn't being given out on the island", which is hardly an answer.

    Shortage of supply is the most likely explanation, all the alternatives being less likely, and less attractive.

    From Scotland's figures
    3,326,005 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 2,170,570 have received their second dose
    giving 5,496,575 shots in arms

    Scotland has received 5,791,490 shots from the UK stockpile. Giving an in Scotland buffer of 294,915 available but not yet injected. Total allocation is 6,371,720.


    Hard to say what this means. The "294,915 available but not yet injected" is about the same buffer that Scotland has been operating on throughout which would suggest supply constraint but the total allocation looks proportionally higher than at earlier points which would suggest lack of willing arms.

    Would need to dig into the historical numbers to be sure.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:



    The former is more likely. On the island we've had under-40s hopping up and down wanting to be vaccinated for three weeks now, with only the AZN on offer (which they are being refused) from the main vaccination site and no sense of urgency about getting some Pfizer in to deal with the backlog. The MP has just appeared from his slumber and is now promising resolution by "mid-June", which is good news, but hardly suggests anyone is rushing to get this done. Asked about the Moderna, we've simply been told "the Moderna isn't being given out on the island", which is hardly an answer.

    Shortage of supply is the most likely explanation, all the alternatives being less likely, and less attractive.

    From Scotland's figures
    3,326,005 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 2,170,570 have received their second dose
    giving 5,496,575 shots in arms

    Scotland has received 5,791,490 shots from the UK stockpile. Giving an in Scotland buffer of 294,915 available but not yet injected. Total allocation is 6,371,720.


    Hard to say what this means. The "294,915 available but not yet injected" is about the same buffer that Scotland has been operating on throughout which would suggest supply constraint but the total allocation looks proportionally higher than at earlier points which would suggest lack of willing arms.

    Would need to dig into the historical numbers to be sure.
    The 5.79 figure is an irrelevance - 6.37m are readily available to Nicola, she just hasn't asked for them all yet, so Scotland is sitting on a stockpile greater than 15% of its population. Smart...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    edited June 2021
    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:



    The former is more likely. On the island we've had under-40s hopping up and down wanting to be vaccinated for three weeks now, with only the AZN on offer (which they are being refused) from the main vaccination site and no sense of urgency about getting some Pfizer in to deal with the backlog. The MP has just appeared from his slumber and is now promising resolution by "mid-June", which is good news, but hardly suggests anyone is rushing to get this done. Asked about the Moderna, we've simply been told "the Moderna isn't being given out on the island", which is hardly an answer.

    Shortage of supply is the most likely explanation, all the alternatives being less likely, and less attractive.

    From Scotland's figures
    3,326,005 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 2,170,570 have received their second dose
    giving 5,496,575 shots in arms

    Scotland has received 5,791,490 shots from the UK stockpile. Giving an in Scotland buffer of 294,915 available but not yet injected. Total allocation is 6,371,720.


    Hard to say what this means. The "294,915 available but not yet injected" is about the same buffer that Scotland has been operating on throughout which would suggest supply constraint but the total allocation looks proportionally higher than at earlier points which would suggest lack of willing arms.

    Would need to dig into the historical numbers to be sure.
    I liked the quote from the woman running the Welsh programme, asked about their vaccine stocks, that in Wales they are "storing the vaccines in people's arms"
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    IanB2 said:



    The former is more likely. On the island we've had under-40s hopping up and down wanting to be vaccinated for three weeks now, with only the AZN on offer (which they are being refused) from the main vaccination site and no sense of urgency about getting some Pfizer in to deal with the backlog. The MP has just appeared from his slumber and is now promising resolution by "mid-June", which is good news, but hardly suggests anyone is rushing to get this done. Asked about the Moderna, we've simply been told "the Moderna isn't being given out on the island", which is hardly an answer.

    Shortage of supply is the most likely explanation, all the alternatives being less likely, and less attractive.

    From Scotland's figures
    3,326,005 people have received the first dose of the Covid vaccination and 2,170,570 have received their second dose
    giving 5,496,575 shots in arms

    Scotland has received 5,791,490 shots from the UK stockpile. Giving an in Scotland buffer of 294,915 available but not yet injected. Total allocation is 6,371,720.


    Hard to say what this means. The "294,915 available but not yet injected" is about the same buffer that Scotland has been operating on throughout which would suggest supply constraint but the total allocation looks proportionally higher than at earlier points which would suggest lack of willing arms.

    Would need to dig into the historical numbers to be sure.
    Had a look at some historical data, looks like Vaccine allocation has increased almost strictly linearly since start of march. No increase in the speed to allocation so deffo no surge of vaccine available.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    Well done Japan, up to the grand total of 12 doses per 100 population now.

    Only seven weeks until the Olympics take place, because no-one wants to be the guy who loses face by making the decision to cancel.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    As a counter to the various stories of how swift and efficient the vaccine rollout is, I'd note that my first dose took an hour from door to door, and I was in 4 separate queues which all ended in a different dopey volunteer asking me exactly the same questions, before I was finally released to a aisle of largely idle jabbers. Very much too many volunteers but none of them willing to engage brains to increase throughput.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Sandpit said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Here is what we have done wrong. In no particular order. And it's not exhaustive.

    1. Failing to vaccinate sufficiently quickly. The rollout over the past month has been weak to poor. We have been jabbing around 100-150k 1st jabs per day. This is WOEFULLY inadequate.

    2. Delaying 2nd jabs. As I suggested, it's becoming clear that 1 jab is insufficient protection against the Indian variant and that it is adept at side-stepping those people. We should have stepped up both 1st and 2nd jabs, 24/7 with at least 1 million a day. We have been complacent.

    3. Refusing to see through vaccine passports. The only way to defeat this is to use vaccine passports. Allowing c. 12,000 fans to travel to Portugal on the basis only of tests is the kind of stupidity which we showed Spring 2020. Why was this permitted? Because Johnson is weak. He should have stood up to his recalcitrant backbenchers and told them simply and straight that, 'You wanna travel? You show your jabs. End of.' That's a very small price to pay for freedom.

    4. The entire thrust should be vaccinations. And, again, more controversially that means that if you have been double jabbed you should be completely free to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. A vaccine pass is a very very very small price to pay in exchange for that and we should have resisted all those who whinged about it and who now have far fewer freedoms as a result.

    This is very similar to what I have been saying. The vaccination effort for the last month has been woeful, 567k yesterday is still not nearly enough. Excuse after excuse has been given, its a weekend, its a bank holiday, its a week with a bank holiday in it and people are away, etc etc.

    There are 2 possibilities. Either we simply do not have enough vaccine because some of our anticipated supplies have fallen through or we are meeting widespread vaccine resistance/indifference. Both of these are alarming and it is astonishing that more attention is not being paid to them.

    If it is the former the government needs to move heaven and earth to get some more. If it is the latter the government should be loud and clear that this is the most important thing you can do for your health right now and nothing is more important. They should also be looking at evening clinics, smaller mobile clinics, going to workplaces, going to schools for 18 year olds before they break up, whatever it takes. Now. Immediately. Action this day. This is urgent and becoming more so by the day.
    They need to end the age restriction and just leet anyone over 18 have it. Sure there will be holdouts that need further campaigns but jab the willing ASAP.

    Vax rates in Leicester are poor, so we are going to get another wave. 58% first dose, 35% double dose here, in part because of the young population in the city.

    I'd like to see that now, too. The difference in medical risk for someone aged 18 versus aged 28 appears negligible.
    But I guess the concern would be overload on the booking system, and a lot of dissatisfaction if the programme were thrown open to all adults, before the numbers are down to a level at which they could cope?
    In Leicester anyone over 18 can get it as a drop in, though I think that unofficial, with a Nelson like blind eye turned.

    A few queues might create a bit of hype to get the campaign going. In any case other countries are doing so without problems, most of the USA and France for example any adult can book.
    The youngsters being used to sitting on a website endlessly clicking refresh for anything worth having? ;)

    I remember in 2012 sitting on the Olympics website doing just that, probably over several hours, refreshing a page over and over that had no availability. Suddenly out of the blue a single ticket appeared for one of the evening athletics sessions, which I snapped up, and so I got to be there in the crowd the night when Bolt and the Jamaica team won their amazing relay world record....
    Awesome! That’s still the fastest human running race in history, nine years later.
    Certainly I remember how quickly it was over. Barely had the gun fired and they'd got round the track, almost unbelievable that humans could move so quickly. The celebrations and big screen replays lasted for a lot longer than the event!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Here is what we have done wrong. In no particular order. And it's not exhaustive.

    1. Failing to vaccinate sufficiently quickly. The rollout over the past month has been weak to poor. We have been jabbing around 100-150k 1st jabs per day. This is WOEFULLY inadequate.

    2. Delaying 2nd jabs. As I suggested, it's becoming clear that 1 jab is insufficient protection against the Indian variant and that it is adept at side-stepping those people. We should have stepped up both 1st and 2nd jabs, 24/7 with at least 1 million a day. We have been complacent.

    3. Refusing to see through vaccine passports. The only way to defeat this is to use vaccine passports. Allowing c. 12,000 fans to travel to Portugal on the basis only of tests is the kind of stupidity which we showed Spring 2020. Why was this permitted? Because Johnson is weak. He should have stood up to his recalcitrant backbenchers and told them simply and straight that, 'You wanna travel? You show your jabs. End of.' That's a very small price to pay for freedom.

    4. The entire thrust should be vaccinations. And, again, more controversially that means that if you have been double jabbed you should be completely free to do whatever you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. A vaccine pass is a very very very small price to pay in exchange for that and we should have resisted all those who whinged about it and who now have far fewer freedoms as a result.

    I don't get why the pace of our rollout is dipping tbh.
    Wales is about 6 doses per 100 ahead of the rUK. Whatever your split between first and seconds, that's meaningful.
    I would guess it’s because we’re moving into those groups who are less likely to take it. .
    I don't think there's any evidence at all that this is the reason.

    And anecdotally every youngster I know can't wait to get it and get on with their lives
    Second that. My children are desperate to get it.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Re vaccines unused/available. How are they counting Pfizer vaccines now (and are they being consistent?). Is one unit of Pfizer vaccine now counted as 5 or 6 doses?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    With regards to the Rishi letter this is just like Hammond and the Police Scotland VAT debacle.

    Refused to repeal VAT on them until after the 2017 election and tried to paint that as a victory for the SCons.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    maaarsh said:

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    As a counter to the various stories of how swift and efficient the vaccine rollout is, I'd note that my first dose took an hour from door to door, and I was in 4 separate queues which all ended in a different dopey volunteer asking me exactly the same questions, before I was finally released to a aisle of largely idle jabbers. Very much too many volunteers but none of them willing to engage brains to increase throughput.
    I had my second dose earlier this week in the same centre in Ealing in which I’d had my first dose. Was notably more efficient this time round - in and out in 10 mins, while it’d had taken around 45 mins previously.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    Seeing as the rules for amber "home" quarantine allow IT and Telecoms workers to go to their work places it would be unsurprising if it is not taken seriously.
  • The sensible (and populist) thing for the PM to do now would be to throw the vaccine lists open. Make it all walk in and extend the hours to (ironically) the same as polling stations. All the vulnerable have been offered theirs now. Just get it fucking done.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    maaarsh said:

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    As a counter to the various stories of how swift and efficient the vaccine rollout is, I'd note that my first dose took an hour from door to door, and I was in 4 separate queues which all ended in a different dopey volunteer asking me exactly the same questions, before I was finally released to a aisle of largely idle jabbers. Very much too many volunteers but none of them willing to engage brains to increase throughput.
    What were the Q's?

    They do it all the time when you are in hospital, as protection against giving the wrong treatments to the wrong people. Even when your name is pinned to your bed, and they are doing a daily drug round.

    Safety lessons from past mistakes.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    edited June 2021

    The sensible (and populist) thing for the PM to do now would be to throw the vaccine lists open. Make it all walk in and extend the hours to (ironically) the same as polling stations. All the vulnerable have been offered theirs now. Just get it fucking done.

    Except, we don't have the supplies. When a couple of million set off and only 100k get the jab - PR nightmare for the Government. There is no point risking undoing all the good work of the roll-out in one ill-judged gesture.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    MattW said:

    maaarsh said:

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    As a counter to the various stories of how swift and efficient the vaccine rollout is, I'd note that my first dose took an hour from door to door, and I was in 4 separate queues which all ended in a different dopey volunteer asking me exactly the same questions, before I was finally released to a aisle of largely idle jabbers. Very much too many volunteers but none of them willing to engage brains to increase throughput.
    What were the Q's?

    They do it all the time when you are in hospital, as protection against giving the wrong treatments to the wrong people. Even when your name is pinned to your bed, and they are doing a daily drug round.

    Safety lessons from past mistakes.
    Doesn't have to be as slow as that, though. For my first vac I had to queue for ten minutes and was in there for ten minutes. For the replay there was no queue (something others have noticed) and I was in and out in ten minutes. very quick and efficient.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Maybe the Lib Dems are just not good at politics

    Mind you the political climate will change one day, but at present it seems quite a way off
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    Republicans may want to block it because of Biden, but in the other hand they aren’t exactly on the same page as the likes of Amazon, Google, Facebook... these days
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    If you want the ear of Government for pet projects in your constituency, do you:

    a) vote for the party of Government or

    b) vote for the fourth largest party of Government - you know, the one that was in Government in a semi-detached way a few years back, but got cold feet and a bit icky when they saw what decisions power entailed.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    Guess the clink of classes and laughter in the background might be a bit of a clue?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited June 2021

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    I believe the next step is for the G20 to agree then I expect it would be quite quick

    Certainly the G7 finance ministers are getting quite excited by it and of course Joe Biden has threatened sanctions on any country that dos not implement the agreement
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    The sensible (and populist) thing for the PM to do now would be to throw the vaccine lists open. Make it all walk in and extend the hours to (ironically) the same as polling stations. All the vulnerable have been offered theirs now. Just get it fucking done.

    Except, we don't have the supplies. When a couple of million set off and only 100k get the jab - PR nightmare for the Government. There is no point risking undoing all the good work of the roll-out in one ill-judged gesture.
    We do though and that problem resolves itself through appointment availablity. Create a scarce resource and people want it even more. Look at how quickly the PS5 sells out every time it gets restocked on Amazon.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    MattW said:

    maaarsh said:

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    As a counter to the various stories of how swift and efficient the vaccine rollout is, I'd note that my first dose took an hour from door to door, and I was in 4 separate queues which all ended in a different dopey volunteer asking me exactly the same questions, before I was finally released to a aisle of largely idle jabbers. Very much too many volunteers but none of them willing to engage brains to increase throughput.
    What were the Q's?

    They do it all the time when you are in hospital, as protection against giving the wrong treatments to the wrong people. Even when your name is pinned to your bed, and they are doing a daily drug round.

    Safety lessons from past mistakes.
    Even giving blood, you’ll tell your name and date of birth to every new person you meet.

    As you say, lessons learned from past incidents. The same reason air traffic controllers never refer to ‘take off’ except in the phrase ‘cleared to take off’.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    Has some sort of “Face/Off” type switch happened with these two?


  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    I believe the next step is for the G20 to agree then I expect it would be quite quick

    Certainly the G7 finance ministers are getting quite excited by it and of course Joe Biden has threatened sanctions on any country that dos not implement the agreement
    Joe’s ancestral homeland might be a bit less keen on him if he does that.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094

    The sensible (and populist) thing for the PM to do now would be to throw the vaccine lists open. Make it all walk in and extend the hours to (ironically) the same as polling stations. All the vulnerable have been offered theirs now. Just get it fucking done.

    Except, we don't have the supplies. When a couple of million set off and only 100k get the jab - PR nightmare for the Government. There is no point risking undoing all the good work of the roll-out in one ill-judged gesture.
    On supplies, the estimates that I am seeing for UK AZ production during May are 4 million, as opposed to 6 million in April.

    Does anyone know more?

    Source:
    https://globalcommissionforpostpandemicpolicy.org/covid-19-vaccine-production-to-may-31-2021/
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Maybe the Lib Dems are just not good at politics

    Mind you the political climate will change one day, but at present it seems quite a way off
    Maybe we're just not openly corrupt like the "conservatives". Again my appeal for Good Government. You are not only in government but likely to stay in government for another term after this. There is no excuse for running the country in such a shite fashion.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    DougSeal said:

    Has some sort of “Face/Off” type switch happened with these two?


    Marina Hyde is the last person with whom you’d want to enter into a battle of wits.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    maaarsh said:

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    As a counter to the various stories of how swift and efficient the vaccine rollout is, I'd note that my first dose took an hour from door to door, and I was in 4 separate queues which all ended in a different dopey volunteer asking me exactly the same questions, before I was finally released to a aisle of largely idle jabbers. Very much too many volunteers but none of them willing to engage brains to increase throughput.
    I think it may be down to when a lot of these centres were planned - late last year, early this, when we were in the middle of a severe wave. I know the Guernsey one was planned to be capable of continuing running even in the middle of a significant outbreak - so lots of physical distancing etc.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555
    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    I think they judge by things like whether there is ambient noise etc.

    I don't see why people can't just ignore the calls and say they were napping or in the shower or something.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    I believe the next step is for the G20 to agree then I expect it would be quite quick

    Certainly the G7 finance ministers are getting quite excited by it and of course Joe Biden has threatened sanctions on any country that dos not implement the agreement
    Joe’s ancestral homeland might be a bit less keen on him if he does that.
    I was just saying that to my good lady this morning

    It is ironic that Ireland is representing the EU at this G7 finance ministers meeting and it is Ireland and some EU countries who are objected v the ROW
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    maaarsh said:

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    As a counter to the various stories of how swift and efficient the vaccine rollout is, I'd note that my first dose took an hour from door to door, and I was in 4 separate queues which all ended in a different dopey volunteer asking me exactly the same questions, before I was finally released to a aisle of largely idle jabbers. Very much too many volunteers but none of them willing to engage brains to increase throughput.
    I think it may be down to when a lot of these centres were planned - late last year, early this, when we were in the middle of a severe wave. I know the Guernsey one was planned to be capable of continuing running even in the middle of a significant outbreak - so lots of physical distancing etc.
    The 2nd of the 4 queues had 2m stickers on the floor to tell you where to stand. Of course because they snaked the queue in a compact space, you actually spent most of the time stood 0.5m from someone, more or less face to face.

    Just amazing that with volunteers coming out of their ears, absolutely none of them could spot the multiple idiocies they were committing
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2021
    alex_ said:

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    Republicans may want to block it because of Biden, but in the other hand they aren’t exactly on the same page as the likes of Amazon, Google, Facebook... these days
    Everyone is going to want to see the detail of what actually passes the US legislative process - a basic understanding of which suggests that they’ll either try and get large multinationals listed in the US to pay all of their global taxes there, will make an exception for companies who also sell physical goods, or own a theme park, will allow grandfather rights on existing offshore subsidiaries for ten years, allow US companies to offset taxes against US spending, and maybe something about abortion clinics, just because.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Not so much the Tories, but you have just PERFECTLY described the SNP playbook.....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: hmm. Leclerc and Sainz can be backed, with boost, at 16 and 29 for pole. each way, may be worth a shot. (Perez is 7.5, again with boost).

    Intrigued to see how Mercedes do. I hope it's poorly. Fancy a change at the front.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited June 2021

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Maybe the Lib Dems are just not good at politics

    Mind you the political climate will change one day, but at present it seems quite a way off
    Maybe we're just not openly corrupt like the "conservatives". Again my appeal for Good Government. You are not only in government but likely to stay in government for another term after this. There is no excuse for running the country in such a shite fashion.
    Trying to take the moral high ground is one thing, but maybe promoting sensible and popular policies and not constantly supporting the EU would be a start though
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    SandraMc said:

    Maarsh, I find your comment about "dopey volunteers" offensive. All the volunteers I encountered with both of my jabs and the two for my special needs son were polite, efficient and charming. I respect the people who give up their time to help.

    Assuming that just because people are kind and generous (of course they are) that they are doing the best possible job and no attempt should be made to improve palpable shortcomings, is part of the reason our beloved NHS and world leading civil service helped to deliver such great outcomes in the last year.

    There is absolutely no conflict between thinking they were cheerful, generous of their time, well meaning, but inefficient and unthinking.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    maaarsh said:

    SandraMc said:

    Maarsh, I find your comment about "dopey volunteers" offensive. All the volunteers I encountered with both of my jabs and the two for my special needs son were polite, efficient and charming. I respect the people who give up their time to help.

    Assuming that just because people are kind and generous (of course they are) that they are doing the best possible job and no attempt should be made to improve palpable shortcomings, is part of the reason our beloved NHS and world leading civil service helped to deliver such great outcomes in the last year.

    There is absolutely no conflict between thinking they were cheerful, generous of their time, well meaning, but inefficient and unthinking.
    75% of the adult population having had a first dose, and 50% a second reflects quite well on the NHS and Civil Service I’d say.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    maaarsh said:

    SandraMc said:

    Maarsh, I find your comment about "dopey volunteers" offensive. All the volunteers I encountered with both of my jabs and the two for my special needs son were polite, efficient and charming. I respect the people who give up their time to help.

    Assuming that just because people are kind and generous (of course they are) that they are doing the best possible job and no attempt should be made to improve palpable shortcomings, is part of the reason our beloved NHS and world leading civil service helped to deliver such great outcomes in the last year.

    There is absolutely no conflict between thinking they were cheerful, generous of their time, well meaning, but inefficient and unthinking.
    75% of the adult population having had a first dose, and 50% a second reflects quite well on the NHS and Civil Service I’d say.
    It reflects wonderfully well on getting outside help in to do vaccine procurement rather than leaving it to the usual government machine.

    Plenty of European countries now achieving the same or higher rate of per capita daily jabs - the tricky bit was buying the things and thank goodness for all of us that wasn't left to the usual bodies.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited June 2021

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Potentially unlawful as well if the government takes account of matters which are not relevant criteria under applicable legislation etc.

    But the government has thought of this too by its moves to stop any challenges to what it does.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,454
    edited June 2021

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    I believe the next step is for the G20 to agree then I expect it would be quite quick

    Certainly the G7 finance ministers are getting quite excited by it and of course Joe Biden has threatened sanctions on any country that dos not implement the agreement
    Does that include on the US!?

    The finance ministers are all happy with it because its popular back home to be excited by it. That has little correlation with the boring realities of the difficulties of passing new legislation in the US.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    edited June 2021
    maaarsh said:

    maaarsh said:

    SandraMc said:

    Maarsh, I find your comment about "dopey volunteers" offensive. All the volunteers I encountered with both of my jabs and the two for my special needs son were polite, efficient and charming. I respect the people who give up their time to help.

    Assuming that just because people are kind and generous (of course they are) that they are doing the best possible job and no attempt should be made to improve palpable shortcomings, is part of the reason our beloved NHS and world leading civil service helped to deliver such great outcomes in the last year.

    There is absolutely no conflict between thinking they were cheerful, generous of their time, well meaning, but inefficient and unthinking.
    75% of the adult population having had a first dose, and 50% a second reflects quite well on the NHS and Civil Service I’d say.
    It reflects wonderfully well on getting outside help in to do vaccine procurement rather than leaving it to the usual government machine.

    Plenty of European countries now achieving the same or higher rate of per capita daily jabs - the tricky bit was buying the things and thank goodness for all of us that wasn't left to the usual bodies.
    It’s not all about procurement. Setting up and staffing vaccination centres, encouraging people to attend requires a lot of work. We’ve got vaccines into arms, where other countries have acquired stockpiles.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Which explicit threat? Perhaps you can quote something from the letter?

    It looks to me to be the fairly standard bromide that gets put out in by elections
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    I believe the next step is for the G20 to agree then I expect it would be quite quick

    Certainly the G7 finance ministers are getting quite excited by it and of course Joe Biden has threatened sanctions on any country that dos not implement the agreement
    Joe’s ancestral homeland might be a bit less keen on him if he does that.
    I was just saying that to my good lady this morning

    It is ironic that Ireland is representing the EU at this G7 finance ministers meeting and it is Ireland and some EU countries who are objected v the ROW
    Yes, an example of how Brexit has lost us influence on European policy. We are outside the room where it happens now.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Foxy said:

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    I believe the next step is for the G20 to agree then I expect it would be quite quick

    Certainly the G7 finance ministers are getting quite excited by it and of course Joe Biden has threatened sanctions on any country that dos not implement the agreement
    Joe’s ancestral homeland might be a bit less keen on him if he does that.
    I was just saying that to my good lady this morning

    It is ironic that Ireland is representing the EU at this G7 finance ministers meeting and it is Ireland and some EU countries who are objected v the ROW
    Yes, an example of how Brexit has lost us influence on European policy. We are outside the room where it happens now.
    And why would we want to be part of a cartel trying to defend the indefensible v the ROW
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    The sound of leather on willow is a giveaway
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Not so much the Tories, but you have just PERFECTLY described the SNP playbook.....
    "as have previous governments of different colours".

    I do not support the SNP. I campaigned against the SNP. I am not responsible for the SNP. PB Tories however DO vote Tory and some ARE members. They ARE responsible for the open corruption gross incompetence and clowncar chaos.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973

    F1: hmm. Leclerc and Sainz can be backed, with boost, at 16 and 29 for pole. each way, may be worth a shot. (Perez is 7.5, again with boost).

    Intrigued to see how Mercedes do. I hope it's poorly. Fancy a change at the front.

    Always hard to know if Mercedes are just bluffing - but really do think they have a big issue with street circuits.

    I’d put money on Ferrari doing well (and McLaren actually..)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    I think they judge by things like whether there is ambient noise etc.

    I don't see why people can't just ignore the calls and say they were napping or in the shower or something.
    I suspect the truth is that the measures are largely designed to deter people from travelling in the first place.

    For those that have travelled regardless, they're not really bothered about seeing the home quarantine measures are strictly enforced - because it's massive overkill given the tiny risk and the fact that the majority of people take precautions when away from home anyway - and are only making token efforts like the daily phone call to avoid people realising the whole thing is a sham policy.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    Charles said:

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Which explicit threat? Perhaps you can quote something from the letter?

    It looks to me to be the fairly standard bromide that gets put out in by elections
    High Streets. Green Spaces. Antisocial Behaviour. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO YOUR VOTE.

    Vote for us and we protect your green spaces and invest in your high street and tackle the yobs. Or vote for someone else and...
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    Foxy said:

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    I believe the next step is for the G20 to agree then I expect it would be quite quick

    Certainly the G7 finance ministers are getting quite excited by it and of course Joe Biden has threatened sanctions on any country that dos not implement the agreement
    Joe’s ancestral homeland might be a bit less keen on him if he does that.
    I was just saying that to my good lady this morning

    It is ironic that Ireland is representing the EU at this G7 finance ministers meeting and it is Ireland and some EU countries who are objected v the ROW
    Yes, an example of how Brexit has lost us influence on European policy. We are outside the room where it happens now.
    The UK is literally hosting an influential event, pushing the minimum corporation tax line...

    Seems pretty influential still.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    The 1966 Hull North By-Election waves from the Humber Bridge.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited June 2021

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Not so much the Tories, but you have just PERFECTLY described the SNP playbook.....
    "as have previous governments of different colours".

    I do not support the SNP. I campaigned against the SNP. I am not responsible for the SNP. PB Tories however DO vote Tory and some ARE members. They ARE responsible for the open corruption gross incompetence and clowncar chaos.
    Why the capitals

    And insult away if it consoles you
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    DougSeal said:

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    The 1966 Hull North By-Election waves from the Humber Bridge.
    It is a beautiful bridge to be fair.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    edited June 2021

    DougSeal said:

    Has some sort of “Face/Off” type switch happened with these two?


    Marina Hyde is the last person with whom you’d want to enter into a battle of wits.
    That just looks like Hyde doing her usual context-free bashing of today's target. In this case the theme is that 1.59m people flying in in 3 months is some sort of national disaster and it's someone's fault, and that we should have kept even more furriners out - rather xenophobic. Meaningless without knowing the reduction on normal, or an international comparison.

    There was a similar thing a few days ago where a Uni Researcher posted that UK air traffic was only down 95% on normal, and how COULD we fail so badly Evil Government Bastard Boris yada yada yada. 000s of retweets by the usual types etc.

    When you look up the numbers the average fall for Europe was less - only about 90%.

    Not that that will stop them.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    F1: hmm. Leclerc and Sainz can be backed, with boost, at 16 and 29 for pole. each way, may be worth a shot. (Perez is 7.5, again with boost).

    Intrigued to see how Mercedes do. I hope it's poorly. Fancy a change at the front.

    Always hard to know if Mercedes are just bluffing - but really do think they have a big issue with street circuits.

    I’d put money on Ferrari doing well (and McLaren actually..)
    Baku is more of a power circuit than Monaco, and Mercedes usually have the engines turned well down on Fridays. We never see how much pace they actually have, until the chips are down on Saturday afternoons.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    Charles said:

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    Which explicit threat? Perhaps you can quote something from the letter?

    It looks to me to be the fairly standard bromide that gets put out in by elections
    High Streets. Green Spaces. Antisocial Behaviour. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO YOUR VOTE.

    Vote for us and we protect your green spaces and invest in your high street and tackle the yobs. Or vote for someone else and...
    Peter is going to struggle to be able to do much about getting new restaurants and "high-quality" shops (no charity shops here!) opened in Amersham High Street, nor in getting developers to build GP surgeries or in stopping people from speeding.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    maaarsh said:

    Japanese response to speedy vaccination (video in tweet):

    The vaccination at Umi, a town in Fukuoka, is done smoothly and effectively with a doctor & his team moving while elderly residents sit and wait. They can give shots to 120 people in an hour, 8 times faster than before

    https://twitter.com/natfukue/status/1400233056280059907?s=20

    As a counter to the various stories of how swift and efficient the vaccine rollout is, I'd note that my first dose took an hour from door to door, and I was in 4 separate queues which all ended in a different dopey volunteer asking me exactly the same questions, before I was finally released to a aisle of largely idle jabbers. Very much too many volunteers but none of them willing to engage brains to increase throughput.
    What were the Q's?

    They do it all the time when you are in hospital, as protection against giving the wrong treatments to the wrong people. Even when your name is pinned to your bed, and they are doing a daily drug round.

    Safety lessons from past mistakes.
    Even giving blood, you’ll tell your name and date of birth to every new person you meet.

    As you say, lessons learned from past incidents. The same reason air traffic controllers never refer to ‘take off’ except in the phrase ‘cleared to take off’.
    Even so it doesn’t always work: the last time I was in hospital as more than an outpatient I was inA&E with a line in waiting to be sent up to a bed when I realised that the name printed on the bag at the top of the line wasn’t mine.
    I was not fully with it at the time so they might not have asked me my name, but someone hadn’t checked my wrist band either.
    Luckily it didn’t matter as it was the same treatment I should have had, but it could have been pretty serious.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    I think they judge by things like whether there is ambient noise etc.

    I don't see why people can't just ignore the calls and say they were napping or in the shower or something.
    I suspect the truth is that the measures are largely designed to deter people from travelling in the first place.

    For those that have travelled regardless, they're not really bothered about seeing the home quarantine measures are strictly enforced - because it's massive overkill given the tiny risk and the fact that the majority of people take precautions when away from home anyway - and are only making token efforts like the daily phone call to avoid people realising the whole thing is a sham policy.
    I ignored all the calls whether I was at home or not and precisely nothing happened. See also census and TV licence.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    DougSeal said:

    Spectacularly tone-deaf letter by the Tory campaign on a number of fronts. Poor Dishy having his name attached to it.

    And it is why the conservatives are 'winning here'
    It is a demonstrable fact that the Tories throw cash at seats they have won - as have previous governments of different colours.

    What is new here is the explicit threat to starve them of cash if they vote the wrong way. Government as mafia mob? They should just adopt the HYUFD tone and be explicit.

    "We are in charge here. We will do what we like. We give money to our friends and starve our enemies. You want to be fed or go hungry? Think about that when you cast your vote"
    The 1966 Hull North By-Election waves from the Humber Bridge.
    It is a beautiful bridge to be fair.
    Indeed, and for 17 years the longest single span suspension bridge in the world - built to connect Hull with a field in North Lincolnshire.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    alex_ said:

    The big news this morning is the pending G7 agreement on a minimum 15% corporation tax and finally Amazon and others having to pay their fare share of tax

    Full marks to Joe Biden for pushing this and Rishi as host endorsing it

    And the BBC are reporting the irony that Ireland and some in the EU are anti

    And another problem for Labour as the conservatives resolve the Amazon tax controversy

    What are the odds of this actually being implemented, say by 2025? Presumably the Republicans block it, because it is proposed by a Democrat, and then the other countries say they will implement it when the US does?

    Or is there a clear legislative pathway for this?
    Republicans may want to block it because of Biden, but in the other hand they aren’t exactly on the same page as the likes of Amazon, Google, Facebook... these days
    Everyone is going to want to see the detail of what actually passes the US legislative process - a basic understanding of which suggests that they’ll either try and get large multinationals listed in the US to pay all of their global taxes there, will make an exception for companies who also sell physical goods, or own a theme park, will allow grandfather rights on existing offshore subsidiaries for ten years, allow US companies to offset taxes against US spending, and maybe something about abortion clinics, just because.
    None of that matters though

    From our perspective it’s the fact we can tax Amazon, Facebook etc based on UK sales rather than those taxes going to Ireland/Luxembourg.

    The minimum tax thing is something Biden wanted so if it gets him to support the digital tax that is fine. The minimum tax is essentially a sweep mechanism - if you’ve done lots of clever things and reduced your tax below X then It gets rounded up to 15%. Benefits all normal tax countries vs the parasites (won’t really impact the tax havens).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    I think they judge by things like whether there is ambient noise etc.

    I don't see why people can't just ignore the calls and say they were napping or in the shower or something.
    I suspect the truth is that the measures are largely designed to deter people from travelling in the first place.

    For those that have travelled regardless, they're not really bothered about seeing the home quarantine measures are strictly enforced - because it's massive overkill given the tiny risk and the fact that the majority of people take precautions when away from home anyway - and are only making token efforts like the daily phone call to avoid people realising the whole thing is a sham policy.
    I ignored all the calls whether I was at home or not and precisely nothing happened. See also census and TV licence.
    census are still calling door-to-door on the no replies; I saw one of them at it last week
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    Sandpit said:

    F1: hmm. Leclerc and Sainz can be backed, with boost, at 16 and 29 for pole. each way, may be worth a shot. (Perez is 7.5, again with boost).

    Intrigued to see how Mercedes do. I hope it's poorly. Fancy a change at the front.

    Always hard to know if Mercedes are just bluffing - but really do think they have a big issue with street circuits.

    I’d put money on Ferrari doing well (and McLaren actually..)
    Baku is more of a power circuit than Monaco, and Mercedes usually have the engines turned well down on Fridays. We never see how much pace they actually have, until the chips are down on Saturday afternoons.
    Exactly this - they’ll be monsters on those long straights - only doubt I have are those corners, which I think suit the Ferraris more.

    Whatever the result - really great to see the battle at the front (rather than the usual Mercedes 1 2)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,094
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    The sound of leather on willow is a giveaway
    Ah yes - it's Mr Mosley.

    Who is Willow?

    /questionable taste
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    I think they judge by things like whether there is ambient noise etc.

    I don't see why people can't just ignore the calls and say they were napping or in the shower or something.
    I suspect the truth is that the measures are largely designed to deter people from travelling in the first place.

    For those that have travelled regardless, they're not really bothered about seeing the home quarantine measures are strictly enforced - because it's massive overkill given the tiny risk and the fact that the majority of people take precautions when away from home anyway - and are only making token efforts like the daily phone call to avoid people realising the whole thing is a sham policy.
    I ignored all the calls whether I was at home or not and precisely nothing happened. See also census and TV licence.
    census are still calling door-to-door on the no replies; I saw one of them at it last week
    Let's hope they will enjoy getting told to fuck off.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    I think they judge by things like whether there is ambient noise etc.

    I don't see why people can't just ignore the calls and say they were napping or in the shower or something.
    I suspect the truth is that the measures are largely designed to deter people from travelling in the first place.

    For those that have travelled regardless, they're not really bothered about seeing the home quarantine measures are strictly enforced - because it's massive overkill given the tiny risk and the fact that the majority of people take precautions when away from home anyway - and are only making token efforts like the daily phone call to avoid people realising the whole thing is a sham policy.
    I ignored all the calls whether I was at home or not and precisely nothing happened. See also census and TV licence.
    census are still calling door-to-door on the no replies; I saw one of them at it last week
    Not just the no-replies: I had a follow up visit checking my answers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Abode, aye, already put a tiny sum on Norris each way to win. Surprised McLaren aren't faster in practice.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    I don't recall the government advising people to book holidays in Portugal?

    I feel really sorry for all those who followed Government advice & in good faith booked holidays in Portugal.

    https://twitter.com/BarrySheerman/status/1400757894941925376?s=20
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Travel companies are reporting that significant numbers of people are still intending to travel for their Portugal holiday, despite the new restrictions, and that bookings are holding up. Further evidence that we are approaching the point where many people have simply had enough.

    I think that the Amber home quarantine will be widely ignored, particularly by the youngsters.
    I had a foreign friend who stayed at my place for the quarantine in March. They called him once a day to check he was home. It didn't take him long to realise he could wait for the call (usually about lunchtime) then do what he liked.
    Given that more and more people only have a mobile contact number, how do they know where you are when they call, anyway?
    I think they judge by things like whether there is ambient noise etc.

    I don't see why people can't just ignore the calls and say they were napping or in the shower or something.
    I suspect the truth is that the measures are largely designed to deter people from travelling in the first place.

    For those that have travelled regardless, they're not really bothered about seeing the home quarantine measures are strictly enforced - because it's massive overkill given the tiny risk and the fact that the majority of people take precautions when away from home anyway - and are only making token efforts like the daily phone call to avoid people realising the whole thing is a sham policy.
    I ignored all the calls whether I was at home or not and precisely nothing happened. See also census and TV licence.
    census are still calling door-to-door on the no replies; I saw one of them at it last week
    Not just the no-replies: I had a follow up visit checking my answers.
    Yes, I’ve had to order in a Lightsabre and a grey cloak in case they come to check my response to the religion question.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I wonder whether this same letter was used in Hartlepool and will soon be going to Batley and Spen
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Work email from NHS England tells me that no relaxation of infection control and social distancing in the health care setting on June 21st, and not for the foreseable future.
This discussion has been closed.