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Reaping the Whirlwind – politicalbetting.com

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  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,700
    edited May 2021
    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Oh dear.. is everything's going to be about Boris being an unashamed liar.. its getting very boring and I suspect the electorate are not interested. Boris must be the teflon dead cat that those who dislike him can thrash away at to little or no effect.

    Oh dear, another obsequious post from one of the Government's apologists and predictably "liked" by the usual PB Johnsonphile automatons! Ever wondered about being independent of thought? Ever imagined that it might be possible that the government you voted for might have got things wrong? No, of course not. My party right or wrong. The Führerprinzip is a philosophy alive and well among Johnson's faithful and unthinking followers.
    I doubt there's anyone on here that thinks mistakes haven't been made and the government got everything right.

    Given the was like a once in a century calamity, the biggest disaster since WWII the question really not whether mistakes were made but it's whether the mistakes that have been made were understandable or unreasonable. Would anyone else have done any better?

    What would a Corbyn minority government with Lib-Dem, SNP and Green support have done? Personally I doubt Labour would have done much different to the Conservative government.

    I will say that with something like this Theresa May might have done quite well. I think her instinct would probably have been to lockdown harder and earlier... But then again who knows how she'd have handled it...
    I think you missed my point, because I think there are a couple of posters on here who are desperate to defend the government, and would continue to do so even if Boris Johnson was filmed eating babies. I have no idea whether Labour would have handled it better, but under Corbyn I suggest it would have been equally bad. The fundamental is that Johnson is good at winning elections, but is a very very poor executive. He displays no expertise in this area and demonstrates disorganisation and incompetence.
    But, but, BBQ, babies, Tory, I am not sure that I am getting your point.
    Me neither if you don't agree with Mr Foremain's view of how we should think or more to the point post on here, you are automatically a Boris apologist.

    The thing that amuses me most is that it doesn't matter a monkeys what the left scream on here, the reality is that their party is deeply split with no proseect of power for at least one election and probably two.

    When you have feck all to say about your party because the leadership is so awful, the policy seems to be attack people and insult them ... Its very timesque really.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,284
    edited May 2021
    felix said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    Love it when people dont' realise they are being trolled.
    I would have to be even dafter than I look if I made the assumption that any post by @Floater wasn't all about trolling his/her opponents. I suspect however, the post in question, was made having earnestly analysed the polling data, but not the dates, and thus he/she reached their spurious conclusion.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    felix said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    felix said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW – Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON 44% (+6)
    LAB 33% (-5)
    LD 8% (-)
    GRN 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (-1)
    OTH 4% (-1)

    1,041 respondents, 25-26 May '21. Changes w/ 27-29 April '21.

    https://www.survation.com/political-polling-27-may-2021/ https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1397923718597255175/photo/1

    Ah the outlier corrected - that would be the one that had Labour just the one behind. I guess it's been published to send the anti-boristas into another paroxysmal raging against the machine. BFb.
    Jesus. People aren't saying he is electorally unsuccessful, they are saying he is an unprincipled shit. When you hear the tedious expression "worst prime minister since Lord North" do you think the reference is to Lord N's performance in the polls? Are you any different from, or more interesting than, a football supporter whose team is temporarily outperforming other teams?
    Oh I get it - you're playing the 'morality' card to excuse your lack of answer. Try just considering for a nano second maybe you're wrong and the public have it right. I know it's hard but just ease up on the entitlement syndrome. Footie fans are a laugh a minute - the brain dead are all on twitter calling people fanbois.
    I am not sure what question I am meant to lack an answer to, but approaching important questions from the point of view of morality is what adults are meant to do; it isn't "playing a card."
    It absolutely is.

    When politicians start to talk about "morality" run for the hills.
    Yes. I am not a politician.
    Neither was Jerry Falwell Sr.

    I don't trust anyone who bangs on about "morality" in the context of politics. Keep your morals to yourself.
    And I don't trust or like anyone who produces this embarrassingly adolescent realpolitik schtick. Integrity is crucial to public life and if you genuinely don't agree, I am very comfortable with the assumption that you are a shit in private too. I wouldn't enter into a bet with you.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Getting a vaccine is about getting your body out of the line.

    You're mammothly more at risk from Covid than a vaccine, if you're fucking stupid enough to think that getting a "vaccine is putting your body on the line" then there's no such thing as "not really affected by covid" is there?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,462
    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    If SAGE can just get you through the summer with some restrictions, then it will be autumn and game over.

    Another desperate 8 months of this.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Strong performance from Germany, even with 2 days' data:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    There should be a slight level of panic in Scotland where rising cases is also being seen in hospital figures.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994
    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    It's not like anything changed just over a week ago that would result in an increase in transmission...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    Floater said:
    Opinium just started field data for a poll with the results out on Saturday evening which should give us a better idea if there has been any change post Cummings, most of the Survation data was before his testimony was completed
    https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1397932510370226176?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 49,931

    moonshine said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    80-90 is less antivaxxers, more the lazy bunch
    I know the ONS pop numbers are flawed but in London it’s in the 70 percents for that age range.
    That's pretty decent for London considering how many Londoners are now elsewhere in the country, or in a foreign country.
    For the whole of England, I make it -

    27th Change
    Under 40 29% 5%
    40-44 69% 4%
    45-49 77% 2%
    50-54 84% 0%
    55-59 87% 0%
    60-64 89% 0%
    65-69 92% 0%
    70-74 94% 0%
    75-79 95% 0%
    80+ 95% 0%
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Getting a vaccine is about getting your body out of the line.

    You're mammothly more at risk from Covid than a vaccine, if you're fucking stupid enough to think that getting a "vaccine is putting your body on the line" then there's no such thing as "not really affected by covid" is there?
    I'll keep my liberties and take my chances with covid, thanks buddy.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    But the future that is certain. It is the past that keeps changing. Surely that is what we need to monitor.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,284
    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    I was very impressed by your assertion prior to 10pm on December 12, 2019 that the Conservative majority would be circa 80. At the time I was very, very impressed at your analysis and subsequent prediction. Now it seems, I've tumbled your game!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,462

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Getting a vaccine is about getting your body out of the line.

    You're mammothly more at risk from Covid than a vaccine, if you're fucking stupid enough to think that getting a "vaccine is putting your body on the line" then there's no such thing as "not really affected by covid" is there?
    I'll keep my liberties and take my chances with covid, thanks buddy.
    You spend every waking moment moaning about your liberties being taken away.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    felix said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    felix said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW – Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON 44% (+6)
    LAB 33% (-5)
    LD 8% (-)
    GRN 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (-1)
    OTH 4% (-1)

    1,041 respondents, 25-26 May '21. Changes w/ 27-29 April '21.

    https://www.survation.com/political-polling-27-may-2021/ https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1397923718597255175/photo/1

    Ah the outlier corrected - that would be the one that had Labour just the one behind. I guess it's been published to send the anti-boristas into another paroxysmal raging against the machine. BFb.
    Jesus. People aren't saying he is electorally unsuccessful, they are saying he is an unprincipled shit. When you hear the tedious expression "worst prime minister since Lord North" do you think the reference is to Lord N's performance in the polls? Are you any different from, or more interesting than, a football supporter whose team is temporarily outperforming other teams?
    Oh I get it - you're playing the 'morality' card to excuse your lack of answer. Try just considering for a nano second maybe you're wrong and the public have it right. I know it's hard but just ease up on the entitlement syndrome. Footie fans are a laugh a minute - the brain dead are all on twitter calling people fanbois.
    I am not sure what question I am meant to lack an answer to, but approaching important questions from the point of view of morality is what adults are meant to do; it isn't "playing a card."
    It absolutely is.

    When politicians start to talk about "morality" run for the hills.
    Yes. I am not a politician.
    Neither was Jerry Falwell Sr.

    I don't trust anyone who bangs on about "morality" in the context of politics. Keep your morals to yourself.
    And I don't trust or like anyone who produces this embarrassingly adolescent realpolitik schtick. Integrity is crucial to public life and if you genuinely don't agree, I am very comfortable with the assumption that you are a shit in private too. I wouldn't enter into a bet with you.
    Realpolitik is not adolescent it is how the world has operated for hundreds of years. If not forever.

    I agree that integrity is important, but if you want to talk about integrity then speak about integrity, not "morality".

    People's morals vary, which is why morality should have nothing to do with politics. Do you think a man laying with another man is moral or immoral? Do you think a teenager aborting an unwanted pregnancy is moral or immoral? Do you think any of this should be decided by Parliament or by people? Morality is not a codeword for whatever you want it to mean and it is not consistent from person to person, people have different morals from one another and quite rightly too.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,700

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Getting a vaccine is about getting your body out of the line.

    You're mammothly more at risk from Covid than a vaccine, if you're fucking stupid enough to think that getting a "vaccine is putting your body on the line" then there's no such thing as "not really affected by covid" is there?
    I'll keep my liberties and take my chances with covid, thanks buddy.

    Let's hope you don't get it and give it to your family.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    It may be local but patients admitted up 20% in the last 7 days is not good.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    Or poll aliens. They have all that advanced technology we don't understand that doesn't have to obey our laws of physics.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,462
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    But the future that is certain. It is the past that keeps changing. Surely that is what we need to monitor.
    Polling on past events is probably not a bad guide. The disappearance of people who owned up to voting Lib Dem in 2010 was the strongest indicator of their performance in 2015.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Getting a vaccine is about getting your body out of the line.

    You're mammothly more at risk from Covid than a vaccine, if you're fucking stupid enough to think that getting a "vaccine is putting your body on the line" then there's no such thing as "not really affected by covid" is there?
    I'll keep my liberties and take my chances with covid, thanks buddy.

    Let's hope you don't get it and give it to your family.
    Let's hope another eight months in lockdown doesn't devastate the mental health of your family.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    edited May 2021

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    This fortysomething was. It’s called taking one for the team. You prefer to freeroll, thus making further lockdowns more likely.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    I was very impressed by your assertion prior to 10pm on December 12, 2019 that the Conservative majority would be circa 80. At the time I was very, very impressed at your analysis and subsequent prediction. Now it seems, I've tumbled your game!
    Hey: in the last three elections I've gotten the LDs almost exactly right (sub 10, 12-14, 12-14), and I got the Conservative majority spot on this time around.

    I did, however, get 2017 wrong. I thought the Conservatives would do better than they did (and Labour worse).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,069

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Not getting vaxxed is 'putting your body on the line' unless you're planning on living like a hermit crab your whole life
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    Or poll aliens. They have all that advanced technology we don't understand that doesn't have to obey our laws of physics.
    And this informs them on important matters like who paid for the wallpaper in No 10 how, exactly? I understand that this is apparently key.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    felix said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    felix said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW – Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON 44% (+6)
    LAB 33% (-5)
    LD 8% (-)
    GRN 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (-1)
    OTH 4% (-1)

    1,041 respondents, 25-26 May '21. Changes w/ 27-29 April '21.

    https://www.survation.com/political-polling-27-may-2021/ https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1397923718597255175/photo/1

    Ah the outlier corrected - that would be the one that had Labour just the one behind. I guess it's been published to send the anti-boristas into another paroxysmal raging against the machine. BFb.
    Jesus. People aren't saying he is electorally unsuccessful, they are saying he is an unprincipled shit. When you hear the tedious expression "worst prime minister since Lord North" do you think the reference is to Lord N's performance in the polls? Are you any different from, or more interesting than, a football supporter whose team is temporarily outperforming other teams?
    Oh I get it - you're playing the 'morality' card to excuse your lack of answer. Try just considering for a nano second maybe you're wrong and the public have it right. I know it's hard but just ease up on the entitlement syndrome. Footie fans are a laugh a minute - the brain dead are all on twitter calling people fanbois.
    I am not sure what question I am meant to lack an answer to, but approaching important questions from the point of view of morality is what adults are meant to do; it isn't "playing a card."
    It absolutely is.

    When politicians start to talk about "morality" run for the hills.
    Yes. I am not a politician.
    Neither was Jerry Falwell Sr.

    I don't trust anyone who bangs on about "morality" in the context of politics. Keep your morals to yourself.
    And I don't trust or like anyone who produces this embarrassingly adolescent realpolitik schtick. Integrity is crucial to public life and if you genuinely don't agree, I am very comfortable with the assumption that you are a shit in private too. I wouldn't enter into a bet with you.
    Realpolitik is not adolescent it is how the world has operated for hundreds of years. If not forever.

    I agree that integrity is important, but if you want to talk about integrity then speak about integrity, not "morality".

    People's morals vary, which is why morality should have nothing to do with politics. Do you think a man laying with another man is moral or immoral? Do you think a teenager aborting an unwanted pregnancy is moral or immoral? Do you think any of this should be decided by Parliament or by people? Morality is not a codeword for whatever you want it to mean and it is not consistent from person to person, people have different morals from one another and quite rightly too.
    You don't know what "morality" means. It subsumes integrity and has virtually nothing to do with "a man laying (!) with another man," except in the minds of the half educated.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    It may be local but patients admitted up 20% in the last 7 days is not good.
    In England we’ve had 28 days in a row of fewer than 100 hospitalisations which IS good.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    77% of British voters think overseas travellers should be required to carry vaccine passports, as do majorities of voters in every country surveyed

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1397923771864862722?s=20
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,752
    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    It may be local but patients admitted up 20% in the last 7 days is not good.
    In England we’ve had 28 days in a row of fewer than 100 hospitalisations which IS good.
    Sure, these increases are from a very low base and the percentages exaggerate as a result. But it is disappointing.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,645

    felix said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    Love it when people dont' realise they are being trolled.
    I would have to be even dafter than I look if I made the assumption that any post by @Floater wasn't all about trolling his/her opponents. I suspect however, the post in question, was made having earnestly analysed the polling data, but not the dates, and thus he/she reached their spurious conclusion.
    I think the previous poll that had CON/LAB 39/38 was even more spurious than Floaters spurious conclusion TBH

    Floater does take Guido as gospel mind.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024

    Strong performance from Germany, even with 2 days' data:

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


    Once the vaccines are there, modern economies with decent health systems are pretty good at distributing them.

    Pfizer has really hit it out the park as far as vaccine manufacturing goes. They now look like they'll make 3 billion doses this year.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,460

    kle4 said:

    The thing that did tickle me the most about yesterday's appearance was this WhatsApp message I received from people who used to work for the Tory party.

    Dominic Cummings: Boris Johnson is totally unsuitable to be Prime Minister.

    Greg Clark: What's your evidence for that?

    Dominic Cummings: Well he employed for me for starters.

    In fairness as Foxy suggested yesterday Boris does now have the Trump problem (though nowhere near as severely) of needing to trash his former employee who he praised to all and sundry (and used up lots of political capital to defend, including losing a chancellor over him).

    A blow out always looked inevitable between them. If Cummings is to be believed it's amazing it wasnt sooner. So why the heck did Boris not fire him earlier when lots demanded it? Hed cause less damage now if so.
    This was inevitable the day Boris Johnson appointed him.

    I know several people who have worked in close proximity and pretty much they all think he's the biggest [moderated] in the world, even those who agree with him.

    As the old saying goes there's not an apple cart Cummings has seen that he doesn't want to overturn.

    He might spot a problem but he tells the people that we've done their entire lives is wrong and worthless and now he wants them to what he tells them, even the face of all the evidence that he is wrong.

    Remember in 2010 Michael Gove was made Education Secretary and had a lot of good will in the sector for the changes he wanted to enact but Cummings upset them all and Sir Lynton Crosby persuaded David Cameron to demote Gove in 2014 because Gove's ratings were so poor that it would cost Dave a majority in 2015.

    For somebody with a galaxy sized brain Cummings is very poor at people skills and de-escalating things.

    Remember you and I have paid out many times for Cummings being a [moderated].

    What kind of shit calls armed officers on a defenceless woman? One with issues is my guess.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54929809
    You see you can't even be honest about this.


    ""police officer stationed at the door of No 10 Downing Street escorted a woman from the front door to exit gates as she did not have a security pass at the time".

    About a million miles from "calls armed officers on a defenceless woman"

    You complain about Cummings and then post outright lies and you are even too dumb to realise people will check them.
    Richard, I know people who saw the incident, there's a reason why the government paid her an out of court settlement.

    FYI - The police officers outside Number 10 are armed, they aren't lawn jockeys.
    She was paid an out of court settlement because she was unfairly dismissed not because she was escorted to the gate.

    Oh and one of my cousins IS one of the protection officers at Downing Street (and other locations)
    Even after the settlement she says she was escorted by armed officers, now if that didn't happen the government and their legal team would have insisted in the settlement she shouldn't repeated the allegations, that they didn't speaks volumes.
    Of course they were armed. What is a lie is your claim that Cummings "calls armed officers on a defenceless woman"

    So I thought I would settle this and just phoned my cousin. Not specifically about this of course as he wasn't involved but about the general policy. Guess what. Every single person without a security pass who enters or leaves the building is escorted in and out. No one is allowed to just wander around without an escort for blindingly obvious reasons.

    It is exactly the same as if you are sacked from a company and are escorted off the premises by the security guards. It is a normal part of life and you trying to make it anything more than that just shows how much you are scraping the barrel.
    How many security guards at companies in the UK are armed?
    Still pursuing this stupid fatuous smear. Just shows how bereft of any real arguments you are.

    Of course you are well known for dishonesty in your arguments so it is no surprise.
    I see you haven't answered my question. I think we know who the bereft one is in this discussion, and it isn't me.

    I note the chap you're defending admitted dishonesty yesterday.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    felix said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    felix said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW – Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON 44% (+6)
    LAB 33% (-5)
    LD 8% (-)
    GRN 6% (+1)
    SNP 4% (-1)
    OTH 4% (-1)

    1,041 respondents, 25-26 May '21. Changes w/ 27-29 April '21.

    https://www.survation.com/political-polling-27-may-2021/ https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1397923718597255175/photo/1

    Ah the outlier corrected - that would be the one that had Labour just the one behind. I guess it's been published to send the anti-boristas into another paroxysmal raging against the machine. BFb.
    Jesus. People aren't saying he is electorally unsuccessful, they are saying he is an unprincipled shit. When you hear the tedious expression "worst prime minister since Lord North" do you think the reference is to Lord N's performance in the polls? Are you any different from, or more interesting than, a football supporter whose team is temporarily outperforming other teams?
    Oh I get it - you're playing the 'morality' card to excuse your lack of answer. Try just considering for a nano second maybe you're wrong and the public have it right. I know it's hard but just ease up on the entitlement syndrome. Footie fans are a laugh a minute - the brain dead are all on twitter calling people fanbois.
    I am not sure what question I am meant to lack an answer to, but approaching important questions from the point of view of morality is what adults are meant to do; it isn't "playing a card."
    It absolutely is.

    When politicians start to talk about "morality" run for the hills.
    Yes. I am not a politician.
    Neither was Jerry Falwell Sr.

    I don't trust anyone who bangs on about "morality" in the context of politics. Keep your morals to yourself.
    And I don't trust or like anyone who produces this embarrassingly adolescent realpolitik schtick. Integrity is crucial to public life and if you genuinely don't agree, I am very comfortable with the assumption that you are a shit in private too. I wouldn't enter into a bet with you.
    Realpolitik is not adolescent it is how the world has operated for hundreds of years. If not forever.

    I agree that integrity is important, but if you want to talk about integrity then speak about integrity, not "morality".

    People's morals vary, which is why morality should have nothing to do with politics. Do you think a man laying with another man is moral or immoral? Do you think a teenager aborting an unwanted pregnancy is moral or immoral? Do you think any of this should be decided by Parliament or by people? Morality is not a codeword for whatever you want it to mean and it is not consistent from person to person, people have different morals from one another and quite rightly too.
    You don't know what "morality" means. It subsumes integrity and has virtually nothing to do with "a man laying (!) with another man," except in the minds of the half educated.
    That's the problem though, you ask 10 different people what moral issues bother them you can get 10 different answers - and the half educated get a vote even if I disagree with them. Hence you get stupid things like the Moral Majority campaign etc

    If you want to talk about integrity then say integrity but "morality" is a vague and uncertain phrase that can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean, while wrapped up in a cloak of self-righteousness.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    This fortysomething was. It’s called taking one fir the team. You prefer to freeroll, thus making further lockdowns more likely.
    Utter garbage, utter bullshit.

    Governments decree lockdowns you stupid booby, I have been for freedom all along.

    Do you really think this would end with 100% of the population being vaccinated twice ? there is always another threat, another disease, another variant, another reason to keep you penned in.

    The only way to get out of this is to stop playing the game. Stop playing by their rules. As long as you do, you weill never get out.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,465
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    I was very impressed by your assertion prior to 10pm on December 12, 2019 that the Conservative majority would be circa 80. At the time I was very, very impressed at your analysis and subsequent prediction. Now it seems, I've tumbled your game!
    Hey: in the last three elections I've gotten the LDs almost exactly right (sub 10, 12-14, 12-14), and I got the Conservative majority spot on this time around.

    I did, however, get 2017 wrong. I thought the Conservatives would do better than they did (and Labour worse).
    1992. That was a good one to call the Tory majority within 2.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    edited May 2021
    36% of voters think Hancock should resign post Cummings' testimony, 31% think he should stay and 33% don't know.

    60% of Tory voters though think Hancock should stay in post, while 64% of Labour voters think he should resign.
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2021/05/27/56a76/3
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    It may be local but patients admitted up 20% in the last 7 days is not good.
    In England we’ve had 28 days in a row of fewer than 100 hospitalisations which IS good.
    Sure, these increases are from a very low base and the percentages exaggerate as a result. But it is disappointing.
    90% of hospitalisations in Bolton are not fully vaccinated. I suspect the same is true elsewhere.

    Keep calm and carry on jabbing.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,284
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    I was very impressed by your assertion prior to 10pm on December 12, 2019 that the Conservative majority would be circa 80. At the time I was very, very impressed at your analysis and subsequent prediction. Now it seems, I've tumbled your game!
    Hey: in the last three elections I've gotten the LDs almost exactly right (sub 10, 12-14, 12-14), and I got the Conservative majority spot on this time around.

    I did, however, get 2017 wrong. I thought the Conservatives would do better than they did (and Labour worse).
    Let down by polling respondents from the future?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    But the future that is certain. It is the past that keeps changing. Surely that is what we need to monitor.
    Polling on past events is probably not a bad guide. The disappearance of people who owned up to voting Lib Dem in 2010 was the strongest indicator of their performance in 2015.
    My God: you might be onto something. The LibDem performance in 2015 was the consequence of Cameron "disappearing" LibDem voters.

    We need an immediate investigation.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,460

    glw said:

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    That's why vaccine passports might become necessary, as we might need to give a nudge, or even a shove, to some of the dafter chunks of the populace.
    Bring back penal colonies for those who don’t get vaccinated and move them to places like Rockall, The Pitcairn Islands, and Middlesbrough and then nuke the Smoggies.
    "nuke the Smoggies"

    Would anyone notice the difference?
    Yes, a nuclear strike would improve Boro.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    I know 30-somethings who have been poleaxed for two weeks by the virus.

    I'd rather take my chances with the vaccine. But then I'm not a thick as pigshit antivaxxer.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Not getting vaxxed is 'putting your body on the line' unless you're planning on living like a hermit crab your whole life
    In return for freedom I would take that risk every day of the week. But you take your walled-in safety if you want chum.

    Get used to it. Because it is going to last a long, long time.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,284
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    But the future that is certain. It is the past that keeps changing. Surely that is what we need to monitor.
    Polling on past events is probably not a bad guide. The disappearance of people who owned up to voting Lib Dem in 2010 was the strongest indicator of their performance in 2015.
    My God: you might be onto something. The LibDem performance in 2015 was the consequence of Cameron "disappearing" LibDem voters.

    We need an immediate investigation.
    Immediate investigation? Shall we start it next Spring?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,460
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    But the future that is certain. It is the past that keeps changing. Surely that is what we need to monitor.
    Polling on past events is probably not a bad guide. The disappearance of people who owned up to voting Lib Dem in 2010 was the strongest indicator of their performance in 2015.
    My God: you might be onto something. The LibDem performance in 2015 was the consequence of Cameron "disappearing" LibDem voters.

    We need an immediate investigation.
    Ben Page said it was the biggest false recall he can, ahem, recall in all his years of polling.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    I was very impressed by your assertion prior to 10pm on December 12, 2019 that the Conservative majority would be circa 80. At the time I was very, very impressed at your analysis and subsequent prediction. Now it seems, I've tumbled your game!
    Hey: in the last three elections I've gotten the LDs almost exactly right (sub 10, 12-14, 12-14), and I got the Conservative majority spot on this time around.

    I did, however, get 2017 wrong. I thought the Conservatives would do better than they did (and Labour worse).
    1992. That was a good one to call the Tory majority within 2.....
    All I remember about 1992 is the Bedfordshire North campaign :smile:
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    I was very impressed by your assertion prior to 10pm on December 12, 2019 that the Conservative majority would be circa 80. At the time I was very, very impressed at your analysis and subsequent prediction. Now it seems, I've tumbled your game!
    Hey: in the last three elections I've gotten the LDs almost exactly right (sub 10, 12-14, 12-14), and I got the Conservative majority spot on this time around.

    I did, however, get 2017 wrong. I thought the Conservatives would do better than they did (and Labour worse).
    Let down by polling respondents from the future?
    I think a lot of people from the future had just seen the Corbyn Glastonbury performance and were embarrassed of their 2017 vote. throwing the numbers off somewhat.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    I was very impressed by your assertion prior to 10pm on December 12, 2019 that the Conservative majority would be circa 80. At the time I was very, very impressed at your analysis and subsequent prediction. Now it seems, I've tumbled your game!
    Hey: in the last three elections I've gotten the LDs almost exactly right (sub 10, 12-14, 12-14), and I got the Conservative majority spot on this time around.

    I did, however, get 2017 wrong. I thought the Conservatives would do better than they did (and Labour worse).
    1992. That was a good one to call the Tory majority within 2.....
    All I remember about 1992 is the Bedfordshire North campaign :smile:
    I remember the Barcelona Olympics.

    Wasn't paying any attention to politics.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,460
    edited May 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    I only poll people from the future, as their responses are more likely to be useful from a betting perspective.
    I was very impressed by your assertion prior to 10pm on December 12, 2019 that the Conservative majority would be circa 80. At the time I was very, very impressed at your analysis and subsequent prediction. Now it seems, I've tumbled your game!
    Hey: in the last three elections I've gotten the LDs almost exactly right (sub 10, 12-14, 12-14), and I got the Conservative majority spot on this time around.

    I did, however, get 2017 wrong. I thought the Conservatives would do better than they did (and Labour worse).
    1992. That was a good one to call the Tory majority within 2.....
    All I remember about 1992 is the Bedfordshire North campaign :smile:
    If only Labour and Green voters had tactically voted for the Lib Dem candidate, then LD Gain.

    The Lib Dems should have upped their bar chart game in that election.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    I know 30-somethings who have been poleaxed for two weeks by the virus.

    I'd rather take my chances with the vaccine. But then I'm not a thick as pigshit antivaxxer.
    I thought vaccines were our way out Philip.

    But they aren't.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,069

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Not getting vaxxed is 'putting your body on the line' unless you're planning on living like a hermit crab your whole life
    In return for freedom I would take that risk every day of the week. But you take your walled-in safety if you want chum.

    Get used to it. Because it is going to last a long, long time.
    What on earth are you on about
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    To be fair, the headline quotes were all over the internet, and on the overnight front pages, so those who answer opinion polls would probably have been influenced to some extent.
    I suspect you are clutching at straws here, unless opinion poll respondents behave like I do with my tax returns and submit them on the evening of January 31st. Most I would hazard, do not.
    I thought they were asked over the period 25-26 May. ie yesterday and the day before, when the Cummings bombshells were all over the media
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,460
    edited May 2021
    Hey Robert, can update the site so people can only post on PB once they've scanned their Covid-19 vaccine certificate QR code from the NHS app?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    moonshine said:

    Vaccine penetration in the 40s is topping out at a disappointing level. Using ONS data, barely any movement week on week for the 45-49s at 82.6% vs 80.7% the week prior. Meanwhile for 40-44s, 82.3% vs 77.1%. During which time 1.1m first doses were given to the under 40s.

    If these silly bastards lead to a winter lockdown I will not be held accountable for my actions.

    Why would healthy people not really affected by covid put their bodies on the line when vaccination does not lead to freedom?

    Not getting vaxxed is 'putting your body on the line' unless you're planning on living like a hermit crab your whole life
    In return for freedom I would take that risk every day of the week. But you take your walled-in safety if you want chum.

    Get used to it. Because it is going to last a long, long time.
    What on earth are you on about
    Playing the martyr.

    But I'd admire his stubbornness
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,937
    rcs1000 said:

    I think a lot of people from the future had just seen the Corbyn Glastonbury performance and were embarrassed of their 2017 vote. throwing the numbers off somewhat.

    I think people from the future saw another Glastonbury performance and were so horrified they sabotaged the live stream last weekend
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    The COVID numbers don’t look good to me.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    This fortysomething was. It’s called taking one fir the team. You prefer to freeroll, thus making further lockdowns more likely.
    Utter garbage, utter bullshit.

    Governments decree lockdowns you stupid booby, I have been for freedom all along.

    Do you really think this would end with 100% of the population being vaccinated twice ? there is always another threat, another disease, another variant, another reason to keep you penned in.

    The only way to get out of this is to stop playing the game. Stop playing by their rules. As long as you do, you weill never get out.

    (ignoring the fact you undermine any argument you make by refusing the vax… I’ll engage with your argument…)

    Can you explain to me HOW I stage such a revolt? There is no way that I can see that I can attend my cousin’s wedding (she has postponed twice already) if the government wets the bed and delays 21 June.

    There is NO WAY I can stage the rebellion you are calling for. None.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,737

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    This fortysomething was. It’s called taking one fir the team. You prefer to freeroll, thus making further lockdowns more likely.
    Utter garbage, utter bullshit.

    Governments decree lockdowns you stupid booby, I have been for freedom all along.

    Do you really think this would end with 100% of the population being vaccinated twice ? there is always another threat, another disease, another variant, another reason to keep you penned in.

    The only way to get out of this is to stop playing the game. Stop playing by their rules. As long as you do, you weill never get out.

    There’s only two ways through as far as I see it. Option 1) you reach herd immunity and the pandemic ends. Option 2) you keep some combination of internal and border restrictions more or less indefinitely.

    Option 2) sucks.

    Within option 1), you can either reach herd immunity by acquired infection or by vaccination. Given the vaccine is now here, it’s much quicker (and safer) to reach herd immunity using the vaccine rather than state sponsored spin the bottle tournaments.

    Your position is a puzzle to me and I say that as someone who would rather we locked down far less in 2020 and early 2021 than we have.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,684

    Hey Robert, can update the site so people can only post on PB once they've scanned their Covid-19 vaccine certificate QR code from the NHS app?

    And their maths A level certificate.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,684
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Oh dear.. is everything's going to be about Boris being an unashamed liar.. its getting very boring and I suspect the electorate are not interested. Boris must be the teflon dead cat that those who dislike him can thrash away at to little or no effect.

    Oh dear, another obsequious post from one of the Government's apologists and predictably "liked" by the usual PB Johnsonphile automatons! Ever wondered about being independent of thought? Ever imagined that it might be possible that the government you voted for might have got things wrong? No, of course not. My party right or wrong. The Führerprinzip is a philosophy alive and well among Johnson's faithful and unthinking followers.
    He is, however, right that the electorate isn’t, right now at least, remotely interested. I am just back from dog training class and all of the others spent the entire break slagging off Cummings; there wasn’t the slightest interest in whether any of the allegations had any truth in them, at all.
    You speak dog? Impressive.
    Only ruffly, I am sure.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,687
    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    It may be local but patients admitted up 20% in the last 7 days is not good.
    In England we’ve had 28 days in a row of fewer than 100 hospitalisations which IS good.
    Sure, these increases are from a very low base and the percentages exaggerate as a result. But it is disappointing.
    Bolton well past its mini-peak for positive tests now and declining steadily. Hospitalisations tend to lag positives by a week or so so we are probably close to the peak for hospitalisations at Royal Bolton now.

    Now, there is not one 'wave', there are hundreds of localised mini-waves; we are likely to see dozens of mini-Boltons; though there's reason to hope they won't be anything like of the same scale. They won't all be at the same time though. I'm optimistic that hospitalisations will remain just over 100 per day for a while yet as vaccinations race reopening.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    To be fair, the headline quotes were all over the internet, and on the overnight front pages, so those who answer opinion polls would probably have been influenced to some extent.
    I suspect you are clutching at straws here, unless opinion poll respondents behave like I do with my tax returns and submit them on the evening of January 31st. Most I would hazard, do not.
    I thought they were asked over the period 25-26 May. ie yesterday and the day before, when the Cummings bombshells were all over the media
    Most of the survey took place before Cumming's testimony and 50% before any of it had been given, wait until Saturday for Opinium which started polling today to see if there has been any impact
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    edited May 2021
    blockquote class="Quote" rel="contrarian">If SAGE can just get you through the summer with some restrictions, then it will be autumn and game over.

    Another desperate 8 months of this.



    Perhaps you should take the vaccine then you dimwitted etc.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,465
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think a lot of people from the future had just seen the Corbyn Glastonbury performance and were embarrassed of their 2017 vote. throwing the numbers off somewhat.

    I think people from the future saw another Glastonbury performance and were so horrified they sabotaged the live stream last weekend
    Only one thing came out of that.

    You don't mess with Eurovision.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,465
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Oh dear.. is everything's going to be about Boris being an unashamed liar.. its getting very boring and I suspect the electorate are not interested. Boris must be the teflon dead cat that those who dislike him can thrash away at to little or no effect.

    Oh dear, another obsequious post from one of the Government's apologists and predictably "liked" by the usual PB Johnsonphile automatons! Ever wondered about being independent of thought? Ever imagined that it might be possible that the government you voted for might have got things wrong? No, of course not. My party right or wrong. The Führerprinzip is a philosophy alive and well among Johnson's faithful and unthinking followers.
    He is, however, right that the electorate isn’t, right now at least, remotely interested. I am just back from dog training class and all of the others spent the entire break slagging off Cummings; there wasn’t the slightest interest in whether any of the allegations had any truth in them, at all.
    You speak dog? Impressive.
    Only ruffly, I am sure.
    Even that must make you very yappy.....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,937
    Carnyx said:

    And their maths A level certificate.

    That's right, keep the Jocks out...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2021

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    I know 30-somethings who have been poleaxed for two weeks by the virus.

    I'd rather take my chances with the vaccine. But then I'm not a thick as pigshit antivaxxer.
    I thought vaccines were our way out Philip.

    But they aren't.
    They are.

    Lockdowns are being lifted because and only because of people taking the vaccine.

    If we all refused the jab then lockdowns would be getting continued.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994
    Carnyx said:

    Hey Robert, can update the site so people can only post on PB once they've scanned their Covid-19 vaccine certificate QR code from the NHS app?

    And their maths A level certificate.
    And their PPE degree certificate.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,684
    Scott_xP said:

    Carnyx said:

    And their maths A level certificate.

    That's right, keep the Jocks out...
    And Highers, and HNC, and Int Bac too. Quite right to remind me.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,645
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    To be fair, the headline quotes were all over the internet, and on the overnight front pages, so those who answer opinion polls would probably have been influenced to some extent.
    I suspect you are clutching at straws here, unless opinion poll respondents behave like I do with my tax returns and submit them on the evening of January 31st. Most I would hazard, do not.
    I thought they were asked over the period 25-26 May. ie yesterday and the day before, when the Cummings bombshells were all over the media
    Most of the survey took place before Cumming's testimony and 50% before any of it had been given, wait until Saturday for Opinium which started polling today to see if there has been any impact
    The impact will be negligible IMO

    Whilst SKS is LOTO Boris et al have a free pass
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,937
    Matt Hancock says up to three quarters of all new cases of coronavirus are now of the new Indian variant

    He says that the government needs to see whether this is now translating into increased hospitalisations

    Cases remain focused in the hotspot areas

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1397946575968739335
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Oh dear.. is everything's going to be about Boris being an unashamed liar.. its getting very boring and I suspect the electorate are not interested. Boris must be the teflon dead cat that those who dislike him can thrash away at to little or no effect.

    Oh dear, another obsequious post from one of the Government's apologists and predictably "liked" by the usual PB Johnsonphile automatons! Ever wondered about being independent of thought? Ever imagined that it might be possible that the government you voted for might have got things wrong? No, of course not. My party right or wrong. The Führerprinzip is a philosophy alive and well among Johnson's faithful and unthinking followers.
    He is, however, right that the electorate isn’t, right now at least, remotely interested. I am just back from dog training class and all of the others spent the entire break slagging off Cummings; there wasn’t the slightest interest in whether any of the allegations had any truth in them, at all.
    You speak dog? Impressive.
    Only ruffly, I am sure.
    That's barking mad.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    edited May 2021

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    To be fair, the headline quotes were all over the internet, and on the overnight front pages, so those who answer opinion polls would probably have been influenced to some extent.
    I suspect you are clutching at straws here, unless opinion poll respondents behave like I do with my tax returns and submit them on the evening of January 31st. Most I would hazard, do not.
    I thought they were asked over the period 25-26 May. ie yesterday and the day before, when the Cummings bombshells were all over the media
    Most of the survey took place before Cumming's testimony and 50% before any of it had been given, wait until Saturday for Opinium which started polling today to see if there has been any impact
    The impact will be negligible IMO

    Whilst SKS is LOTO Boris et al have a free pass
    No alternative Labour leader would make any difference, except maybe Burnham who has said he will not stand for Parliament again until the next general election at the earliest anyway when he could be a contender if Starmer has led Labour to another defeat.

    Otherwise the next general election will be decided about how well the government has managed the economy and general situation post pandemic and post Brexit
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Oh dear.. is everything's going to be about Boris being an unashamed liar.. its getting very boring and I suspect the electorate are not interested. Boris must be the teflon dead cat that those who dislike him can thrash away at to little or no effect.

    Oh dear, another obsequious post from one of the Government's apologists and predictably "liked" by the usual PB Johnsonphile automatons! Ever wondered about being independent of thought? Ever imagined that it might be possible that the government you voted for might have got things wrong? No, of course not. My party right or wrong. The Führerprinzip is a philosophy alive and well among Johnson's faithful and unthinking followers.
    He is, however, right that the electorate isn’t, right now at least, remotely interested. I am just back from dog training class and all of the others spent the entire break slagging off Cummings; there wasn’t the slightest interest in whether any of the allegations had any truth in them, at all.
    You speak dog? Impressive.
    Only ruffly, I am sure.
    Even that must make you very yappy.....
    You are a wag!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,460
    edited May 2021
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    To be fair, the headline quotes were all over the internet, and on the overnight front pages, so those who answer opinion polls would probably have been influenced to some extent.
    I suspect you are clutching at straws here, unless opinion poll respondents behave like I do with my tax returns and submit them on the evening of January 31st. Most I would hazard, do not.
    I thought they were asked over the period 25-26 May. ie yesterday and the day before, when the Cummings bombshells were all over the media
    If it follows the usual form of pollsters, the poll opened around 9am on Tuesday, and they got about 75-80%% of respondents by around 5pm on Tuesday, then the final 25% were collated by around 12pm tomorrow.

    The last 25%-30% of respondents are usually the hardest to get, particularly if they haven't hit their demographic targets.

    So Guido's comment that this was a day of testimony poll is highly misleading.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,290
    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    It may be local but patients admitted up 20% in the last 7 days is not good.
    In England we’ve had 28 days in a row of fewer than 100 hospitalisations which IS good.
    Sure, these increases are from a very low base and the percentages exaggerate as a result. But it is disappointing.
    One thing to note - yes an increase in admissions, but the total in hospital is not rising. Signs of patients going in being less sick than before? I think so.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,687
    edited May 2021
    moonshine said:

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    This fortysomething was. It’s called taking one fir the team. You prefer to freeroll, thus making further lockdowns more likely.
    Utter garbage, utter bullshit.

    Governments decree lockdowns you stupid booby, I have been for freedom all along.

    Do you really think this would end with 100% of the population being vaccinated twice ? there is always another threat, another disease, another variant, another reason to keep you penned in.

    The only way to get out of this is to stop playing the game. Stop playing by their rules. As long as you do, you weill never get out.

    There’s only two ways through as far as I see it. Option 1) you reach herd immunity and the pandemic ends. Option 2) you keep some combination of internal and border restrictions more or less indefinitely.

    Option 2) sucks.

    Within option 1), you can either reach herd immunity by acquired infection or by vaccination. Given the vaccine is now here, it’s much quicker (and safer) to reach herd immunity using the vaccine rather than state sponsored spin the bottle tournaments.

    Your position is a puzzle to me and I say that as someone who would rather we locked down far less in 2020 and early 2021 than we have.

    Yes, me too. I'm highly sceptical of lockdowns but also highly enthusiastic about vaccinations.

    On which subject, this particular 40-something was also totally fine after jab #1. I don't know anyone who's felt worse than 'a bit grotty for a day or so'.

    EDIT: And how, exactly, are we supposed to 'stop playing the game, stop playing by their rules'? Granted, we could vote in a different government. But that doesn't appear to be an immediate option.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    I know 30-somethings who have been poleaxed for two weeks by the virus.

    I'd rather take my chances with the vaccine. But then I'm not a thick as pigshit antivaxxer.
    ...well you are not an antivaxxer.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,024

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I think a lot of people from the future had just seen the Corbyn Glastonbury performance and were embarrassed of their 2017 vote. throwing the numbers off somewhat.

    I think people from the future saw another Glastonbury performance and were so horrified they sabotaged the live stream last weekend
    Only one thing came out of that.

    You don't mess with Eurovision.
    My God: you've got it. Make Radiohead the British Eurovision entry.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,460
    Carnyx said:

    Hey Robert, can update the site so people can only post on PB once they've scanned their Covid-19 vaccine certificate QR code from the NHS app?

    And their maths A level certificate.
    Yes!

    I have two A levels in maths, maths and further maths, both As, when A levels were hard.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    There's a perception amongst its opponents that this Government is ideological and very right-wing.

    In fact, the reason it's polling so well is that it's positioned itself slap-bang in the centre of where public opinion is across the country at large.

    That's not the same as the chatterati, but it doesn't make it untrue.

    Bluekip/Blue Labour are what it’s been called, which is economically leftish and culturally rightish - the option that wasn’t really on the table for the last 20 odd years
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,290

    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    It may be local but patients admitted up 20% in the last 7 days is not good.
    In England we’ve had 28 days in a row of fewer than 100 hospitalisations which IS good.
    Sure, these increases are from a very low base and the percentages exaggerate as a result. But it is disappointing.
    90% of hospitalisations in Bolton are not fully vaccinated. I suspect the same is true elsewhere.

    Keep calm and carry on jabbing.
    We don't know, but the 4 or 5 in Bolton hospital who have been double jabbed may well have been 2nd dosed only recently, or may be frail, or have other issues. Much we don't know.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,937
    rcs1000 said:

    My God: you've got it. Make Radiohead the British Eurovision entry.

    Then nobody could complain when we get null points
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    There's a perception amongst its opponents that this Government is ideological and very right-wing.

    In fact, the reason it's polling so well is that it's positioned itself slap-bang in the centre of where public opinion is across the country at large.

    That's not the same as the chatterati, but it doesn't make it untrue.

    Well said.

    The likes of TIGgers etc love to call themselves "centrists" when they're not remotely in the centre. Boris is ruthlessly centrist right now.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,289
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    Oh dear.. is everything's going to be about Boris being an unashamed liar.. its getting very boring and I suspect the electorate are not interested. Boris must be the teflon dead cat that those who dislike him can thrash away at to little or no effect.

    Oh dear, another obsequious post from one of the Government's apologists and predictably "liked" by the usual PB Johnsonphile automatons! Ever wondered about being independent of thought? Ever imagined that it might be possible that the government you voted for might have got things wrong? No, of course not. My party right or wrong. The Führerprinzip is a philosophy alive and well among Johnson's faithful and unthinking followers.
    He is, however, right that the electorate isn’t, right now at least, remotely interested. I am just back from dog training class and all of the others spent the entire break slagging off Cummings; there wasn’t the slightest interest in whether any of the allegations had any truth in them, at all.
    You speak dog? Impressive.
    Only ruffly, I am sure.
    You are such a wag
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,989

    Carnyx said:

    Hey Robert, can update the site so people can only post on PB once they've scanned their Covid-19 vaccine certificate QR code from the NHS app?

    And their maths A level certificate.
    Yes!

    I have two A levels in maths, maths and further maths, both As, when A levels were hard.
    Failed a maths AS level *buffs nails*

    The school changed exam boards the next year as most people had failed.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 21,994

    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Clear upward trend in cases now, with the daily total hitting the highest since April 12 (for the second day running).

    A lot of this is still localised. Bolton alone had 1,292 cases in the last week; Warrington, only a few miles south, had just 18.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1397938149112881153

    https://twitter.com/UKCovid19Stats/status/1397931362942951425

    Surge testing when there's a localised outbreak will give a slightly distorted impression so I don't think there's any reason to panic.
    It may be local but patients admitted up 20% in the last 7 days is not good.
    In England we’ve had 28 days in a row of fewer than 100 hospitalisations which IS good.
    Sure, these increases are from a very low base and the percentages exaggerate as a result. But it is disappointing.
    One thing to note - yes an increase in admissions, but the total in hospital is not rising. Signs of patients going in being less sick than before? I think so.
    Either that or they are leaving via the back door, and thankfully there is no sign of an increase in those numbers.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Floater said:
    I am not sure you have got the hang of this polling mullarkey.

    If responses are taken a day or two before an event, it is unlikely that the responses will be in relation to the event...unless the respondent is psychic...or from the future.
    To be fair, the headline quotes were all over the internet, and on the overnight front pages, so those who answer opinion polls would probably have been influenced to some extent.
    I suspect you are clutching at straws here, unless opinion poll respondents behave like I do with my tax returns and submit them on the evening of January 31st. Most I would hazard, do not.
    I thought they were asked over the period 25-26 May. ie yesterday and the day before, when the Cummings bombshells were all over the media
    Most of the survey took place before Cumming's testimony and 50% before any of it had been given, wait until Saturday for Opinium which started polling today to see if there has been any impact
    Con Maj has gone 2.02 that’s probably a sign
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,611
    edited May 2021

    There's a perception amongst its opponents that this Government is ideological and very right-wing.

    In fact, the reason it's polling so well is that it's positioned itself slap-bang in the centre of where public opinion is across the country at large.

    That's not the same as the chatterati, but it doesn't make it untrue.

    It is rightwing to wealthy urban Remainers and graduates, it is dead centre for the working class and lower middle class voters who decide elections.

  • eekeek Posts: 28,233
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    My God: you've got it. Make Radiohead the British Eurovision entry.

    Then nobody could complain when we get null points
    We would finally find out if negative points are achievable..
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    There's a perception amongst its opponents that this Government is ideological and very right-wing.

    In fact, the reason it's polling so well is that it's positioned itself slap-bang in the centre of where public opinion is across the country at large.

    That's not the same as the chatterati, but it doesn't make it untrue.

    Excellent post. Very true.

    It’s the most leftwing Tory government since the 1970s, and possibly before.

    I keep repeating this to my chattering class friends!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,290

    Crappy covid numbers again. Tiny, tiny numbers in absolute terms (statistical zeros) but won’t help stave off the bed wetting. Need to unlock lots of vaccines in the fortysomethings who are slow on the uptake.

    I know 40-something who have been poleaxed for two days by the jab.

    These stories go around and maybe 40-something would prefer to take their chances. Such as they are.
    I know 30-somethings who have been poleaxed for two weeks by the virus.

    I'd rather take my chances with the vaccine. But then I'm not a thick as pigshit antivaxxer.
    I thought vaccines were our way out Philip.

    But they aren't.
    You are in complete denial of the facts aren't you? Or just deliberately trying to wind people up. The vaccines absolutely are the way out, as is happening in Israel and United States. Our government, caught out in the autumn, is being very cautious now, but we are still on track. If you have so little civic responsibility that you won't have a freely available and safe vaccine to help society then you are a hopeless case.
This discussion has been closed.