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The most depressing polling response I can recall – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,162
edited May 2021 in General
The most depressing polling response I can recall – politicalbetting.com

Yes, and looking very possible – maybe even likely – to kill meaning American democracy for the next decade or two. It's awful.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021

    TimT said:

    Interesting article on COVID vaccinations in the US. I had missed that the Biden Administration had set 70% of the adult population having had at least one shot as being a major milestone on the road to normalcy. The UK must already be there?

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

    Yes, the UK is over 70% of adults (over 18) vaccinated at least once.

    image

    In some of the US figures they are using over 16 as the definition, since they are vaccinating down to 16.
    Has anybody ever got to the bottom of where Drakeford is getting his magic extra doses, as there is no evidence any of the other nations sit on supply (certainly not now, there was some early on as different nations had slightly different approaches e.g. Scotland doing care homes first).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,813
    Just as well the the US has a SC which recognises that the single most important right in the Constitution is the right of every qualified voter to vote.

    Ah.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    TimT said:

    Interesting article on COVID vaccinations in the US. I had missed that the Biden Administration had set 70% of the adult population having had at least one shot as being a major milestone on the road to normalcy. The UK must already be there?

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

    Yes, the UK is over 70% of adults (over 18) vaccinated at least once.

    image

    In some of the US figures they are using over 16 as the definition, since they are vaccinating down to 16.
    Has anybody ever got to the bottom of where Drakeford is getting his magic extra doses, as there is no evidence any of the other nations sit on supply (certainly not now, there was some early on as different nations had slightly different approaches e.g. Scotland doing care homes first).
    One almost wonders if there is something dodgy about the basic population figures being used. But I can't see how 3 of 4 could be so similar and only one right out on a limb. Unless something went wrong with the Welsh census, or a lot of Welsh have died or emigrated to Epping.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    Sad when those so partisan aren't able to give government any credit....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Carnyx said:

    TimT said:

    Interesting article on COVID vaccinations in the US. I had missed that the Biden Administration had set 70% of the adult population having had at least one shot as being a major milestone on the road to normalcy. The UK must already be there?

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

    Yes, the UK is over 70% of adults (over 18) vaccinated at least once.

    image

    In some of the US figures they are using over 16 as the definition, since they are vaccinating down to 16.
    Has anybody ever got to the bottom of where Drakeford is getting his magic extra doses, as there is no evidence any of the other nations sit on supply (certainly not now, there was some early on as different nations had slightly different approaches e.g. Scotland doing care homes first).
    One almost wonders if there is something dodgy about the basic population figures being used. But I can't see how 3 of 4 could be so similar and only one right out on a limb. Unless something went wrong with the Welsh census, or a lot of Welsh have died or emigrated to Epping.
    I mean it doesn't really matter, all nations are doing well, which is the most important thing, its just really stand out oddness and be interesting to know why.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,813
    Remarkable number of procession laps here. When does the race actually start?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Just watching Monaco, they’ve made a right mess of Casino Square.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited May 2021

    TimT said:

    Interesting article on COVID vaccinations in the US. I had missed that the Biden Administration had set 70% of the adult population having had at least one shot as being a major milestone on the road to normalcy. The UK must already be there?

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/23/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

    Yes, the UK is over 70% of adults (over 18) vaccinated at least once.

    image

    In some of the US figures they are using over 16 as the definition, since they are vaccinating down to 16.
    Has anybody ever got to the bottom of where Drakeford is getting his magic extra doses, as there is no evidence any of the other nations sit on supply (certainly not now, there was some early on as different nations had slightly different approaches e.g. Scotland doing care homes first).
    A cave deep underneath the Black Mountains, populated by giant, vaccine-secreting slugs.

    But you have to be druid to know how to harvest it.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,835

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good article on the Lab Leak hypothesis, and how everyone is quietly pretending they believed it all along. They didn’t

    ‘At the start of the pandemic, prestige US media outlets were quick to dismiss the hypothesis as a Dangerous Republican Lie. “The claim is inaccurate and ridiculous. We rate it pants on fire,” ruled the Pointer Institute’s notionally nonpartisan, Pulitzer Prize winning fact-checking operation, Politifact, on the lab leak hypothesis. The Washington Post accused Senator Tom Cotton of spreading “conspiracy theories” for wanting to investigate the theory. NPR enthusiastically “debunked” the claim.’

    ‘Articles are edited, tweets are deleted, excuses are readied and yet there is little evidence of any soul searching. Because they know they’ll get away with it.’

    https://thecritic.co.uk/letter-from-washington-the-great-lab-leak-u-turn/

    You are right to push on this.
    The evidence for a lab leak is v strong.
    I’ve said all along: it came from the lab

    Apparently sane posters on here snootily dismissed this as nonsense. A ‘conspiracy theory’. Trumpite Fake Truth. I could dig up their comments but I’ll spare their blushes

    Anyone who actually sits down and thinks about this properly, a novel bat coronavirus emerging in a city with the world’s only lab researching novel bat coronavirus, quickly realises it probably came from the lab. It takes a strange kind of closed, frightened mind to reject this thesis.

    Even that drunken idiot SeanT, ex of this manor, realised it came from the lab, FFS

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-Id-write-covid-the-thriller

    Incidentally there is, now, disturbing evidence that the lady Chinese scientist at the heart of the lab is lying about her research
    I've gone the other direction. I believed the lab leak hypothesis before I read this -

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2021/05/20/no-science-clearly-shows-that-covid-19-wasnt-leaked-from-a-wuhan-lab/?sh=98aefc558512
    That article majors against the idea that the virus was genetically engineered, perhaps deliberately, by the Chinese.

    But that’s not the central claim of the “lab leak” hypothesis.
    I agree.

    The problem is that if you were to expect an outbreak of a natural bat virus from the Wuhan area, it would be in Wuhan anyway. So how would you know which route it took?

    You'd need to do a very detailed phylogenetic analysis of the RNA sequence and plug in known isolates and what the lab was working on.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    DavidL said:

    Remarkable number of procession laps here. When does the race actually start?

    That botched tire change the most exciting thing .....
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Carnyx said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Good article on the Lab Leak hypothesis, and how everyone is quietly pretending they believed it all along. They didn’t

    ‘At the start of the pandemic, prestige US media outlets were quick to dismiss the hypothesis as a Dangerous Republican Lie. “The claim is inaccurate and ridiculous. We rate it pants on fire,” ruled the Pointer Institute’s notionally nonpartisan, Pulitzer Prize winning fact-checking operation, Politifact, on the lab leak hypothesis. The Washington Post accused Senator Tom Cotton of spreading “conspiracy theories” for wanting to investigate the theory. NPR enthusiastically “debunked” the claim.’

    ‘Articles are edited, tweets are deleted, excuses are readied and yet there is little evidence of any soul searching. Because they know they’ll get away with it.’

    https://thecritic.co.uk/letter-from-washington-the-great-lab-leak-u-turn/

    You are right to push on this.
    The evidence for a lab leak is v strong.
    I’ve said all along: it came from the lab

    Apparently sane posters on here snootily dismissed this as nonsense. A ‘conspiracy theory’. Trumpite Fake Truth. I could dig up their comments but I’ll spare their blushes

    Anyone who actually sits down and thinks about this properly, a novel bat coronavirus emerging in a city with the world’s only lab researching novel bat coronavirus, quickly realises it probably came from the lab. It takes a strange kind of closed, frightened mind to reject this thesis.

    Even that drunken idiot SeanT, ex of this manor, realised it came from the lab, FFS

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-Id-write-covid-the-thriller

    Incidentally there is, now, disturbing evidence that the lady Chinese scientist at the heart of the lab is lying about her research
    I've gone the other direction. I believed the lab leak hypothesis before I read this -

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2021/05/20/no-science-clearly-shows-that-covid-19-wasnt-leaked-from-a-wuhan-lab/?sh=98aefc558512
    That article majors against the idea that the virus was genetically engineered, perhaps deliberately, by the Chinese.

    But that’s not the central claim of the “lab leak” hypothesis.
    I agree.

    The problem is that if you were to expect an outbreak of a natural bat virus from the Wuhan area, it would be in Wuhan anyway. So how would you know which route it took?

    You'd need to do a very detailed phylogenetic analysis of the RNA sequence and plug in known isolates and what the lab was working on.
    Good job the Chinese are so open and honest then .......
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    DavidL said:

    Remarkable number of procession laps here. When does the race actually start?

    I hope you aren't suggesting F1 is boring....that's a bit like suggesting Radiohead might not be a fantastic live band.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,813
    edited May 2021
    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    Remarkable number of procession laps here. When does the race actually start?

    That botched tire change the most exciting thing .....
    Worst GP of the year by a considerable distance.

    Can't be bothered watching any more, going for a walk instead.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Somebody even outdoing Boris...

    Nick Cannon ‘expecting seventh child, having had four within six months with three different women

    https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/22/nick-cannon-expecting-seventh-child-having-had-four-within-six-months-14628472

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Sad when those so partisan aren't able to give government any credit....
    I liked this sour grapes comment in response

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1396341098155552768

    LOL - what a tossser
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    Afternoon all :)

    I'm sure someone has mentioned the latest INSA poll from Germany:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 24% (-1)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 23% (-1)
    SPD-S&D: 17% (+1)
    FDP-RE: 13% (+2)
    AfD-ID: 12%
    LINKE-LEFT: 6% (-1)

    The continuing rise of the FDP is of note as is the fact a Green-SPD-FDP coalition commands a majority and might so even better if Linke drop below the 5% threshold.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    DavidL said:

    Floater said:

    DavidL said:

    Remarkable number of procession laps here. When does the race actually start?

    That botched tire change the most exciting thing .....
    Worst GP of the year by a considerable distance.

    Can't be bothered watching any more, going for a walk instead.
    Great minds think alike - the dog will be pleased anyway.....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Floater said:

    Sad when those so partisan aren't able to give government any credit....
    I liked this sour grapes comment in response

    https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/status/1396341098155552768

    LOL - what a tossser
    I thought he was supposed to be all about peace, love and hugging trees these days?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,908
    They're just accepting reality. Getting voters to change their opinions is much more difficult than finding different voters
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    On topic - Is it now a patriotic duty of anti-fascist Republicans to stand candidates in the 2022 midterms with the aim of preventing a GOP majority that would suspend democracy in 2024?

    Would they be able to raise enough money to make a go of it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    FPT...about "lab leak" theory....one thing that is still lacking, which had been found in shorter time for SARS1 and MERS, the animal vectors which it passed through. It is still all in the realms of maybe bats to a pangolin, maybe, could be, etc. SAR and MERs they had the data by now to show that transition.

    You would have thought the Chinese would be really keen on finding this link ASAP to shut down any talk of it being a lab leak and say see it was just one of those things that happened in nature.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    FPT for Doug



    The first case was not at the wet market

    Incidentally I see that Dr Antony Fauci of the CDC has changed his mind, after dismissing the lab leak theory for a year. Suddenly it’s totes plausible


    ‘Fauci 'not convinced' COVID-19 developed naturally
    Fauci’s recent remarks show an evolution in the doctor's beliefs on coronavirus origins over the past year’

    How strange

    https://twitter.com/foxnews/status/1396446141449973763?s=21
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    I'm sure someone has mentioned the latest INSA poll from Germany:

    CDU/CSU-EPP: 24% (-1)
    GRÜNE-G/EFA: 23% (-1)
    SPD-S&D: 17% (+1)
    FDP-RE: 13% (+2)
    AfD-ID: 12%
    LINKE-LEFT: 6% (-1)

    The continuing rise of the FDP is of note as is the fact a Green-SPD-FDP coalition commands a majority and might so even better if Linke drop below the 5% threshold.

    Die Linke getting less than 5% and therefore removed from the German parliament would be one of the best things that could happen at the election IMO.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,874
    It's clear from reading the blizzard of commentary from the American conservative moment they are a tad vexed about the events of last November.

    Many still bleat on about a "steal" and continue to allege fraud on an industrial scale which makes our worries about a few postal votes seem entirely spurious.

    The Republicans have identified a problem with mail-in ballots - the problem is most people who use mail-in ballots don't vote Republican. Others may not see that as a problem.

    The Republican solution to an unsubstantiated fraud is to create a legal fraud via the deliberate disenfranchising of opposition voters.

    That's the problem with democracy - it's fragile and all too easy to manipulate or subvert whether via legal restriction or money or influence or whatever. The other side of the problem is if one side sees legal subversion to its advantage is the answer, so inevitably will the other.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    FPT...about "lab leak" theory....one thing that is still lacking, which had been found in shorter time for SARS1 and MERS, the animal vectors which it passed through. It is still all in the realms of maybe bats to a pangolin, maybe, could be, etc. SAR and MERs they had the data by now to show that transition.

    You would have thought the Chinese would be really keen on finding this link ASAP to shut down any talk of it being a lab leak and say see it was just one of those things that happened in nature.

    A good graphic here. Three routes to infection. Two via the lab


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    FPT

    Petition against the bizarre decision to attempt to tighten rules around amateur singing as everything else is relaxed:

    https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/112779362/signed

    Note - these are guidelines only, not laws, and they can be ignored, but they are still ridiculous guidelines and appear to be the result of a personal domestic dispute involving a senior official. Which is pretty outrageous.

    I’ve signed the petition and I would be grateful if others could too.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    On topic, please let them try and change the electoral system. Whatever they put forward, the result would almost certainly be one person, one vote, and then they would be totally screwed without radical change.

    Although if AOC continues to behave like a tinpot fascist with a massive ego, I don’t know where the Dems are headed either. But hopefully she will never hold power within them.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021
    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    I presume you watched the recent unherd episode on this...although their guest is some what controversial these days because of a recent book about race.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Who’s on No Safety Car, but desperately hoping something happens in this boring race?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,083
    edited May 2021
    People scoff, as we do overreact, but this seems a real fear. They crossed the line awhile back, this is not just them leaning a thumb on the scale, its them wanting to be rid of the scales.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    FPT

    Scottish Indians hit out at Nicola Sturgeon yesterday after she renamed a strain of Covid-19 over fears it would lead to prejudice. They said the First Minister’s decision to start referring to the Indian variant of the killer bug as “April-02” was “silly”.


    The Indian Council of Scotland accused Sturgeon of “playing to the galleries”. Neil Lal, president of the group which represents Scotland’s 33,000 Indians, said: “I’ve not heard from one Indian who has voiced any concern over a Covid strain being called the Indian variant. Not one.


    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/scotland-now/scots-indians-say-nicola-sturgeons-24165455.amp

    BREAKING:

    Nicola Sturgeon says she no longer wishes to refer to Indian take-aways as such, says they should now be described as "hot, spicy food".
    In the interests of gender neutrality, she also asks that people call her statements to select committees ‘bovine shit.’
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    It’s a bit like the police immediately ruling out terrorism, except, when they do you can normally assume they know what’s really gone on.

    These muppets need to be flogged in public.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,553
    I warned all of you about this sort of thing.

    "Millions 'unwittingly tracked' by phone after vaccination to see if movements changed
    A report revealed that data from one in ten peoples' phones were tracked in February"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/22/millions-unwittingly-tracked-phone-vaccination-see-movements/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    How the editor is still in place over this whole period is mind boggling....I notice Horton has gone rather quiet these days though, where as this time last year he was never off the telly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928
    Andy_JS said:

    I warned all of you about this sort of thing.

    "Millions 'unwittingly tracked' by phone after vaccination to see if movements changed
    A report revealed that data from one in ten peoples' phones were tracked in February"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/22/millions-unwittingly-tracked-phone-vaccination-see-movements/

    Sounds like an anonymised study. Isn't this sort of thing done all the time?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375

    On topic - Is it now a patriotic duty of anti-fascist Republicans to stand candidates in the 2022 midterms with the aim of preventing a GOP majority that would suspend democracy in 2024?

    Would they be able to raise enough money to make a go of it?

    Not the most favourable of maps for a Republican net gain of 1 in the Senate, which would also be required (otherwise the VP will just take power instead).

    They’re in with a chance in Georgia, Arizona and Colorado, but Pennsylvania and North Carolina will both be under pressure and Florida is one where the Dems have at least a shout if a Trumpite stands against Rubio.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    Breaking

    Tragedy in Northern Italy as cable car plunges to the ground killing 12
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    The stick I got a year or so ago for asking if an article in The Lancet had been published by a reliable source...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    Is it time to turn off the furlough scheme?

    BBC News - Covid: Restaurants get creative in bid to plug staff shortage
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57218978
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,355
    This situation with Belarus seems like it should be a really big deal. Didn't the Americans start a war in 1812 with some belligerent adversary that was pulling similar stunts at sea?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033
    Has there ever been a more boring race than today's Monaco Grand Prix
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited May 2021

    Is it time to turn off the furlough scheme?

    BBC News - Covid: Restaurants get creative in bid to plug staff shortage
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57218978

    I do know a few airline pilots still getting their mortgages and school fees paid by the furlough scheme. Time to cut it right back though.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,523
    What really strikes me about the poll is the shortage of people who actually put democracy first before their preferred political outcomes.

    I think Brexit is terrible. I disapprove of the Tory government. But it would never cross my mind to deny their right to win majorities, and I've always thought most people on the centre-right agree - and in Britain, I think they do. But in the US, about a quarter of the electorate are willing to put up with anything to get their way.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    edited May 2021

    Has there ever been a more boring race than today's Monaco Grand Prix

    Has there been an exciting monaco grand prix in recent history? The track just makes it impossible for much to happen.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    Has there ever been a more boring race than today's Monaco Grand Prix

    Has there ever been an exciting monaco grand prix in recent history? The track just makes it impossible for much to happen.
    1996 was eventful.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    The stick I got a year or so ago for asking if an article in The Lancet had been published by a reliable source...
    They also published the glowing endorsement of the Russian Sputnik V vaccine didn't they?

    That seems to have been completely dismissed by anyone independent who has reviewed the vaccine.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    Should have followed @Morris_Dancer in on the high number of finishers.

    But.

    No Safety Car. Again!

    (Not even a VSC either!)

    The lone highlight of an otherwise wasted couple of hours...
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723

    Has there ever been a more boring race than today's Monaco Grand Prix

    They are all boring... overtakingi.is so infrequent that if you start in the lead you are well.placed to win.. almost like speedway..źźźzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    edited May 2021
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 235
    On topic, I've been saying the US is going to have a democracy problem to my more politically minded friends since the votes on the election result. The Republicans have already crossed a line and as far as I can see there's no real incentive for them to step back from that line unless it becomes clear that they're unelectable (at the congressional level) while they have an undemocratic position.

    If the Republicans have both houses of Congress at the next election, but lose the presidential election I think there's a very real chance that the result is overturned. At this point, why wouldn't they?

    Similarly, I think there's going to be a lot more scope for Republican anti-democratic behaviour at state level as officials who didn't back the electoral fraud theories are primaried out.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    How the editor is still in place over this whole period is mind boggling....I notice Horton has gone rather quiet these days though, where as this time last year he was never off the telly.

    I wonder if there’ll be an updated version released of this

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01839-y
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277

    What really strikes me about the poll is the shortage of people who actually put democracy first before their preferred political outcomes.

    I think Brexit is terrible. I disapprove of the Tory government. But it would never cross my mind to deny their right to win majorities, and I've always thought most people on the centre-right agree - and in Britain, I think they do. But in the US, about a quarter of the electorate are willing to put up with anything to get their way.

    Yeah, but the Left "does the same", in America

    I don't think you grasp how intense the Woke agenda is, in the USA, and how it is being forced on a lot of unhappy people. The right think the Left is trying to destroy the country and remake it in a Woke style. A kind of cultural coup is underaway, and whites, Republicans and "patriots" are the target

    If you believe there is a coup against your democracy, then democracy can go hang, for a while. First you need to fight and WIN

    I'm not justifying this stance, of course, but I think this explains the poll above
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714
    A refusal to certify a legitimate result presumably means the end of the Republic? Civil war? Succession by Dem states?

    God knows.

    Let us hope the GOP turn away from this darkness before it is too late.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
    Yawn. Please point out any factual errors in my remark

    Do you not think people should be held responsible for the plague, if there is evidence? We hold people responsible for nasty tweets. Facilitating the death of 10m people is worse than a nasty tweet
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    F1: must echo what others have said. Just begun writing the post-race ramble with the expression 'televisual Horlicks'.

    Mr. Sandpit, aye, a good call. Likewise Mr. B on Sainz each way (think he went for both Ferrari drivers).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,714

    What really strikes me about the poll is the shortage of people who actually put democracy first before their preferred political outcomes.

    I think Brexit is terrible. I disapprove of the Tory government. But it would never cross my mind to deny their right to win majorities, and I've always thought most people on the centre-right agree - and in Britain, I think they do. But in the US, about a quarter of the electorate are willing to put up with anything to get their way.

    Seems all the stuff about a shining beacon of democracy to the world is no longer the case. Large numbers of Americans don't want to live in a democracy.

    Putin and China are licking their lips.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,385
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
    Yawn. Please point out any factual errors in my remark

    Do you not think people should be held responsible for the plague, if there is evidence? We hold people responsible for nasty tweets. Facilitating the death of 10m people is worse than a nasty tweet
    Is it actually established now it came from a lab or is it just a theory that is now gathering momentum. FWIW I agree with you about the lancet.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585

    F1: must echo what others have said. Just begun writing the post-race ramble with the expression 'televisual Horlicks'.

    Mr. Sandpit, aye, a good call. Likewise Mr. B on Sainz each way (think he went for both Ferrari drivers).

    France 2019 was the last genuinely crap race.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,315
    Leon said:

    What really strikes me about the poll is the shortage of people who actually put democracy first before their preferred political outcomes.

    I think Brexit is terrible. I disapprove of the Tory government. But it would never cross my mind to deny their right to win majorities, and I've always thought most people on the centre-right agree - and in Britain, I think they do. But in the US, about a quarter of the electorate are willing to put up with anything to get their way.

    Yeah, but the Left "does the same", in America

    I don't think you grasp how intense the Woke agenda is, in the USA, and how it is being forced on a lot of unhappy people. The right think the Left is trying to destroy the country and remake it in a Woke style. A kind of cultural coup is underaway, and whites, Republicans and "patriots" are the target

    If you believe there is a coup against your democracy, then democracy can go hang, for a while. First you need to fight and WIN

    I'm not justifying this stance, of course, but I think this explains the poll above
    There’s a lot of incentive for commentators on the right to 'big up' the woke threat in order to justify undermining democracy in the US. From the outside it seems that without rampant gerry mandering & voter suppression, the Republican Party in it’s current form would have no chance of victory in any national election - it’s only through a continuous campaign of fear & loathing targetting their own supporters that they can justify these anti-democratic policies.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033

    Has there ever been a more boring race than today's Monaco Grand Prix

    Has there been an exciting monaco grand prix in recent history? The track just makes it impossible for much to happen.
    The one year a car ended up in the harbour was quite an event
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
    Yawn. Please point out any factual errors in my remark

    Do you not think people should be held responsible for the plague, if there is evidence? We hold people responsible for nasty tweets. Facilitating the death of 10m people is worse than a nasty tweet
    Is it actually established now it came from a lab or is it just a theory that is now gathering momentum. FWIW I agree with you about the lancet.
    Not established. But growing in probability by the day

    This is a verrrrry long but very compelling analysis

    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/


    This guy Daszak, who funded the lab, seems like a nice chap


    "One can only imagine Daszak’s reaction when he heard of the outbreak of the epidemic in Wuhan a few days later. He would have known better than anyone the Wuhan Institute’s goal of making bat coronaviruses infectious to humans, as well as the weaknesses in the institute’s defense against their own researchers becoming infected.

    "But instead of providing public health authorities with the plentiful information at his disposal, he immediately launched a public relations campaign to persuade the world that the epidemic couldn’t possibly have been caused by one of the institute’s souped-up viruses. “The idea that this virus escaped from a lab is just pure baloney. It’s simply not true,” he declared in an April 2020 interview."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,787
    Mr. Sandpit, I have memories not of the race, but feelings of contempt afterward.

    And don't get me started on India.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,928
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
    Yawn. Please point out any factual errors in my remark

    Do you not think people should be held responsible for the plague, if there is evidence? We hold people responsible for nasty tweets. Facilitating the death of 10m people is worse than a nasty tweet
    Is it actually established now it came from a lab or is it just a theory that is now gathering momentum. FWIW I agree with you about the lancet.
    Not established. But growing in probability by the day

    This is a verrrrry long but very compelling analysis

    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/


    This guy Daszak, who funded the lab, seems like a nice chap


    "One can only imagine Daszak’s reaction when he heard of the outbreak of the epidemic in Wuhan a few days later. He would have known better than anyone the Wuhan Institute’s goal of making bat coronaviruses infectious to humans, as well as the weaknesses in the institute’s defense against their own researchers becoming infected.

    "But instead of providing public health authorities with the plentiful information at his disposal, he immediately launched a public relations campaign to persuade the world that the epidemic couldn’t possibly have been caused by one of the institute’s souped-up viruses. “The idea that this virus escaped from a lab is just pure baloney. It’s simply not true,” he declared in an April 2020 interview."
    Seems awfully suspicious it just happened to appear in a city with a lab dedicated to research into exactly this kind of coronavirus. What did Garak say about coincidences again?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,375
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
    Yawn. Please point out any factual errors in my remark

    Do you not think people should be held responsible for the plague, if there is evidence? We hold people responsible for nasty tweets. Facilitating the death of 10m people is worse than a nasty tweet
    There isn't. You're just talking as if there is.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,991
    762,000 jabs in a day in UK
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,993
    OT - good luck to everyone for the final FPL match day- hope you didn’t go big on Man Utd!
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited May 2021
    That is one of the least surprising poll responses that I’ve ever seen. It’s been years, if not decades in the making. Meanwhile, I see that there are still people trying make this about the left/centre- left. Ultimate both sideism out in force today.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    I understand why this would dishearten TSE, but as someone who should be a natural GOP voter but who can't vote for this shower, I take a certain amount of optimism from this. It means that the Trumpists will self-destruct sooner rather than later. People are seeing straight through voter suppression tactics and I think they will result in the opposite - greater energy to turn out those voters targeted by the suppression.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    The US has a long history of intermittent vote rigging, gerrymandering and vote suppression . In recent history (post WW2) suppression was I think mainly favoured by Southern Democrats but more recently the Republicans whilst rigging was more associated with the Democrats (JFK, Chicago etc.). I doubt there is any large scale rigging in recent elections, but memories linger on. Culturally they also have a more hard-ball approach to all conflicts in terms of stretching rules and laws as far as is possible. Luckily the other pillars of their democracy have so far kept a lid on these tendencies.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589

    That is one of the least surprising poll responses that I’ve ever seen. It’s been years, if not decades in the making. Meanwhile, I see that there are still people trying make this about the left/centre- left. Ultimate both sideism out in force today.

    Yet it is both sides.

    Now we can say whether one side is worse than another.

    But the gerrymandering etc does take place from both sides.

    What I would say the GOP certainly has a problem with is its lack of ideas and the fundamental problem that having supported a reduction of tax and regulations on the rich and big business (plus an over-eagerness to engage in warmongering) it now struggles to reconcile that with the voters it has.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    On topic, the problem in the US is that politicians at various levels are allowed to micromanage the process of elections. So we see state governors controlling numbers of polling stations, ID requirements accompanied by making it difficult to get ID, and the straightforward gerrymandering of districts.

    The U.K. should be thankful for the electoral commission and boundary commission - even those the former has skirted the line of impartiality in recent years, ask Darren Grimes.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
    Yawn. Please point out any factual errors in my remark

    Do you not think people should be held responsible for the plague, if there is evidence? We hold people responsible for nasty tweets. Facilitating the death of 10m people is worse than a nasty tweet
    Is it actually established now it came from a lab or is it just a theory that is now gathering momentum. FWIW I agree with you about the lancet.
    Not established. But growing in probability by the day

    This is a verrrrry long but very compelling analysis

    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/


    This guy Daszak, who funded the lab, seems like a nice chap


    "One can only imagine Daszak’s reaction when he heard of the outbreak of the epidemic in Wuhan a few days later. He would have known better than anyone the Wuhan Institute’s goal of making bat coronaviruses infectious to humans, as well as the weaknesses in the institute’s defense against their own researchers becoming infected.

    "But instead of providing public health authorities with the plentiful information at his disposal, he immediately launched a public relations campaign to persuade the world that the epidemic couldn’t possibly have been caused by one of the institute’s souped-up viruses. “The idea that this virus escaped from a lab is just pure baloney. It’s simply not true,” he declared in an April 2020 interview."
    Thanks for posting this, Leon. The Bulletin is a very serious publication, and knows its stuff when it comes to arms control, dual-use capabilities, and risk management.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
    Yawn. Please point out any factual errors in my remark

    Do you not think people should be held responsible for the plague, if there is evidence? We hold people responsible for nasty tweets. Facilitating the death of 10m people is worse than a nasty tweet
    There isn't. You're just talking as if there is.
    Isn't what?

    Read that long article linked below

    "The bat coronaviruses of the Yunnan caves can infect people directly. In April 2012 six miners clearing bat guano from the Mojiang mine contracted severe pneumonia with COVID-19-like symptoms and three eventually died. A virus isolated from the Mojiang mine, called RaTG13, is still the closest known relative of SARS2.

    "Much mystery surrounds the origin, reporting and strangely low affinity of RaTG13 for bat cells, as well as the nature of 8 similar viruses that Shi [the chief scientist at Wuhan], reports she collected at the same time but has not yet published despite their great relevance to the ancestry of SARS2. But all that is a story for another time. The point here is that bat viruses can infect people directly, though only in special conditions.

    "So who else, besides miners excavating bat guano, comes into particularly close contact with bat coronaviruses? Well, coronavirus researchers do. Shi says she and her group collected more than 1,300 bat samples during some eight visits to the Mojiang cave between 2012 and 2015, and there were doubtless many expeditions to other Yunnan caves."

    Also this:



    "Steven Quay, a physician-researcher, has applied statistical and bioinformatic tools to ingenious explorations of the virus’s origin, showing for instance how the hospitals receiving the early patients are clustered along the Wuhan №2 subway line which connects the Institute of Virology at one end with the international airport at the other, the perfect conveyor belt for distributing the virus from lab to globe."


    His conclusion:

    "People round the world who have been pretty much confined to their homes for the last year might like a better answer than their media are giving them. Perhaps one will emerge in time. After all, the more months pass without the natural emergence theory gaining a shred of supporting evidence, the less plausible it may seem. Perhaps the international community of virologists will come to be seen as a false and self-interested guide.

    "The common sense perception that a pandemic breaking out in Wuhan might have something to do with a Wuhan lab cooking up novel viruses of maximal danger in unsafe conditions could eventually displace the ideological insistence that whatever Trump said can’t be true.

    "And then let the reckoning begin."
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sandpit said:

    On topic, the problem in the US is that politicians at various levels are allowed to micromanage the process of elections. So we see state governors controlling numbers of polling stations, ID requirements accompanied by making it difficult to get ID, and the straightforward gerrymandering of districts.

    The U.K. should be thankful for the electoral commission and boundary commission - even those the former has skirted the line of impartiality in recent years, ask Darren Grimes.

    Although I "liked" that as I agree with you, the problem is the culture now in America too.

    If they had an "impartial" electoral commission like us then both sides would be seeking to stuff the electoral commission with their own partisans.

    It would be like Grimes but on steroids - and the problem then is once you've stuffed with your own lackeys it can be hard for the other side to reverse that. See: SCOTUS.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    What really strikes me about the poll is the shortage of people who actually put democracy first before their preferred political outcomes.

    I think Brexit is terrible. I disapprove of the Tory government. But it would never cross my mind to deny their right to win majorities, and I've always thought most people on the centre-right agree - and in Britain, I think they do. But in the US, about a quarter of the electorate are willing to put up with anything to get their way.

    Yeah, but the Left "does the same", in America

    I don't think you grasp how intense the Woke agenda is, in the USA, and how it is being forced on a lot of unhappy people. The right think the Left is trying to destroy the country and remake it in a Woke style. A kind of cultural coup is underaway, and whites, Republicans and "patriots" are the target

    If you believe there is a coup against your democracy, then democracy can go hang, for a while. First you need to fight and WIN

    I'm not justifying this stance, of course, but I think this explains the poll above
    There’s a lot of incentive for commentators on the right to 'big up' the woke threat in order to justify undermining democracy in the US. From the outside it seems that without rampant gerry mandering & voter suppression, the Republican Party in it’s current form would have no chance of victory in any national election - it’s only through a continuous campaign of fear & loathing targetting their own supporters that they can justify these anti-democratic policies.
    The Left AND the Right in America are engaged in an insane Arms Race of Stupidity. One minute the Left does something crazy and Woke which will only provoke Republicans, a minute later the Republicans are duly provoked, and they do something crazy, in response.

    I really fear for the country. So polarised. Social media must take a lot of the blame

    The solution is a moderate Republican president. To calm the Right, but make peace with the Left. Doesn't seem likely
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, the problem in the US is that politicians at various levels are allowed to micromanage the process of elections. So we see state governors controlling numbers of polling stations, ID requirements accompanied by making it difficult to get ID, and the straightforward gerrymandering of districts.

    The U.K. should be thankful for the electoral commission and boundary commission - even those the former has skirted the line of impartiality in recent years, ask Darren Grimes.

    Although I "liked" that as I agree with you, the problem is the culture now in America too.

    If they had an "impartial" electoral commission like us then both sides would be seeking to stuff the electoral commission with their own partisans.

    It would be like Grimes but on steroids - and the problem then is once you've stuffed with your own lackeys it can be hard for the other side to reverse that. See: SCOTUS.
    Require an 80% quorum of the Senate to start any session for appointing members to the commission, and a supermajority of 75% to approve any nominees.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    What we know so far: KGB operatives boarded the plane in Athens this morning together with Roman Protasevich (he noticed dodgy-looking ppl taking pics of him at the gate). Then when the plane has entered Belarus airspace KGB officers initiated a fight with the Ryanair crew (1/2)


    insisting there’s an IED onboard. Eventually the crew was forced to send out SOS (literally moments before the plane would've left Belarus airspace). MiG-29 took off and escorted it to Minsk. Security services entered the plane and arrested Protasevich. (2/2)


    https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1396446650718117890?s=20
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,277
    TimT said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    How did the ‘lab leak’ theory get dismissed?

    Like this:

    ‘[in the NYT] Wade points out that the “consensus” that Covid must have an entirely natural origin was established by two early pronouncements, one in The Lancet in February 2020 and the other in Nature Medicine in March 2020. These were op-eds, not scientific papers. Both spoke with certainty about matters which it was impossible to be certain about. Wade writes: “It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Dr Daszak’s organisation funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Dr. Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”’


    The Lancet has been poisonous throughout this crisis. A devalued journal


    https://twitter.com/rogerpielkejr/status/1396460393157980169?s=21

    The Lancet seems to have been particularly unlucky/badly-run for some time. Weren't they the people who published the MMR-autism rubbish? At what stage do reputable authors start to avoid it?
    Now, I’d say. That’s an incredibly damaging revelation there. They lied. About the origins of a pandemic which has killed millions.
    In the interests of accuracy - they lied about the links somebody had to a lab which was implicated by some unconfirmed sources as a possible source of the outbreak.

    Which isn’t good, but isn’t as bad as what you are saying.
    Actually, what they did was WORSE than my initial suggestion

    The virus probably came from the lab. So a guy that funds coronavirus research at the lab, in his panic, sent a deceptive letter to the Lancet, hoping to close down all investigation of the lab, and divert attention. And for a year he was successful, only now does it all crumble

    This isn't some small conspiracy either. This is an attempt to hide the truth about the greatest human crisis since World War 2. This is jailtime territory.
    You’ve started early. Flint knapping business a bit slow?
    Yawn. Please point out any factual errors in my remark

    Do you not think people should be held responsible for the plague, if there is evidence? We hold people responsible for nasty tweets. Facilitating the death of 10m people is worse than a nasty tweet
    Is it actually established now it came from a lab or is it just a theory that is now gathering momentum. FWIW I agree with you about the lancet.
    Not established. But growing in probability by the day

    This is a verrrrry long but very compelling analysis

    https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/


    This guy Daszak, who funded the lab, seems like a nice chap


    "One can only imagine Daszak’s reaction when he heard of the outbreak of the epidemic in Wuhan a few days later. He would have known better than anyone the Wuhan Institute’s goal of making bat coronaviruses infectious to humans, as well as the weaknesses in the institute’s defense against their own researchers becoming infected.

    "But instead of providing public health authorities with the plentiful information at his disposal, he immediately launched a public relations campaign to persuade the world that the epidemic couldn’t possibly have been caused by one of the institute’s souped-up viruses. “The idea that this virus escaped from a lab is just pure baloney. It’s simply not true,” he declared in an April 2020 interview."
    Thanks for posting this, Leon. The Bulletin is a very serious publication, and knows its stuff when it comes to arms control, dual-use capabilities, and risk management.
    Weren't you one of the idiots who dismissed the lab leak theory? I believe so. Unless I am confusing the Tims

    The reason it runs in the Bulletin is because of the enforced and absurd virological consensus that "it has a natural origin" - so mainstream medical journals, which have been pushing the wet market bullshit for a year, cannot suddenly and easily volte face, by publishing this.

    I suppose he could have tried to get it in The Lancet?

    Anyway the Consensus of Stupid, including you, has now been blown out of the water. Good
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    Today's infection data is promising.

    It looks increasingly likely that no more than a few thousand people will have to add to herd immunity the hard way.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TimT said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, the problem in the US is that politicians at various levels are allowed to micromanage the process of elections. So we see state governors controlling numbers of polling stations, ID requirements accompanied by making it difficult to get ID, and the straightforward gerrymandering of districts.

    The U.K. should be thankful for the electoral commission and boundary commission - even those the former has skirted the line of impartiality in recent years, ask Darren Grimes.

    Although I "liked" that as I agree with you, the problem is the culture now in America too.

    If they had an "impartial" electoral commission like us then both sides would be seeking to stuff the electoral commission with their own partisans.

    It would be like Grimes but on steroids - and the problem then is once you've stuffed with your own lackeys it can be hard for the other side to reverse that. See: SCOTUS.
    Require an 80% quorum of the Senate to start any session for appointing members to the commission, and a supermajority of 75% to approve any nominees.
    Then when a vacancy would arise whichever party had control would atrophy the commission and refuse to agree to any nominees.

    Ultimately "systems" alone aren't enough to do the job, if people don't want the system to work they will find a way.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,956
    Leon said:


    Isn't what?

    Read that long article linked below

    "The bat coronaviruses of the Yunnan caves can infect people directly. In April 2012 six miners clearing bat guano from the Mojiang mine contracted severe pneumonia with COVID-19-like symptoms and three eventually died. A virus isolated from the Mojiang mine, called RaTG13, is still the closest known relative of SARS2.

    "Much mystery surrounds the origin, reporting and strangely low affinity of RaTG13 for bat cells, as well as the nature of 8 similar viruses that Shi [the chief scientist at Wuhan], reports she collected at the same time but has not yet published despite their great relevance to the ancestry of SARS2. But all that is a story for another time. The point here is that bat viruses can infect people directly, though only in special conditions.

    "So who else, besides miners excavating bat guano, comes into particularly close contact with bat coronaviruses? Well, coronavirus researchers do. Shi says she and her group collected more than 1,300 bat samples during some eight visits to the Mojiang cave between 2012 and 2015, and there were doubtless many expeditions to other Yunnan caves."

    Also this:



    "Steven Quay, a physician-researcher, has applied statistical and bioinformatic tools to ingenious explorations of the virus’s origin, showing for instance how the hospitals receiving the early patients are clustered along the Wuhan №2 subway line which connects the Institute of Virology at one end with the international airport at the other, the perfect conveyor belt for distributing the virus from lab to globe."


    His conclusion:

    "People round the world who have been pretty much confined to their homes for the last year might like a better answer than their media are giving them. Perhaps one will emerge in time. After all, the more months pass without the natural emergence theory gaining a shred of supporting evidence, the less plausible it may seem. Perhaps the international community of virologists will come to be seen as a false and self-interested guide.

    "The common sense perception that a pandemic breaking out in Wuhan might have something to do with a Wuhan lab cooking up novel viruses of maximal danger in unsafe conditions could eventually displace the ideological insistence that whatever Trump said can’t be true.

    "And then let the reckoning begin."

    Has Handelsblatt expressed a view?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,585
    edited May 2021
    TimT said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, the problem in the US is that politicians at various levels are allowed to micromanage the process of elections. So we see state governors controlling numbers of polling stations, ID requirements accompanied by making it difficult to get ID, and the straightforward gerrymandering of districts.

    The U.K. should be thankful for the electoral commission and boundary commission - even those the former has skirted the line of impartiality in recent years, ask Darren Grimes.

    Although I "liked" that as I agree with you, the problem is the culture now in America too.

    If they had an "impartial" electoral commission like us then both sides would be seeking to stuff the electoral commission with their own partisans.

    It would be like Grimes but on steroids - and the problem then is once you've stuffed with your own lackeys it can be hard for the other side to reverse that. See: SCOTUS.
    Require an 80% quorum of the Senate to start any session for appointing members to the commission, and a supermajority of 75% to approve any nominees.
    But they can overturn all their own rules and standing orders with a simple vote in most cases.

    The reality is, that there probably needs to be a constitutional amendment upon this stuff, to restore any semblance of normality to US politics.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,250

    Today's infection data is promising.

    It looks increasingly likely that no more than a few thousand people will have to add to herd immunity the hard way.

    Weekend data is... less helpful.

    We will really know, Tuesday or Wednesday.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Sandpit said:

    TimT said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, the problem in the US is that politicians at various levels are allowed to micromanage the process of elections. So we see state governors controlling numbers of polling stations, ID requirements accompanied by making it difficult to get ID, and the straightforward gerrymandering of districts.

    The U.K. should be thankful for the electoral commission and boundary commission - even those the former has skirted the line of impartiality in recent years, ask Darren Grimes.

    Although I "liked" that as I agree with you, the problem is the culture now in America too.

    If they had an "impartial" electoral commission like us then both sides would be seeking to stuff the electoral commission with their own partisans.

    It would be like Grimes but on steroids - and the problem then is once you've stuffed with your own lackeys it can be hard for the other side to reverse that. See: SCOTUS.
    Require an 80% quorum of the Senate to start any session for appointing members to the commission, and a supermajority of 75% to approve any nominees.
    But they can overturn all their own rules and standing orders with a simple vote in most cases.

    The reality is, that there probably needs to be a constitutional amendment upon this stuff, to restore any semblance of normality to US politics.
    I was thinking the same thing - a constitutional amendment. But that aint gonna happen
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,900
    On topic I can believe anything from a country that has long ago ceased to have any more than a veneer of democracy. Of course the GOP want to pull up the drawbridge - the idea of having to win votes from *them* is repulsive.

    Sadly this is what happens when politicians stop trying to do what is right and instead just go mining for votes in the deepest cesspit because being in power is patriotism as the opposition are traitors.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,589
    Leon said:

    Phil said:

    Leon said:

    What really strikes me about the poll is the shortage of people who actually put democracy first before their preferred political outcomes.

    I think Brexit is terrible. I disapprove of the Tory government. But it would never cross my mind to deny their right to win majorities, and I've always thought most people on the centre-right agree - and in Britain, I think they do. But in the US, about a quarter of the electorate are willing to put up with anything to get their way.

    Yeah, but the Left "does the same", in America

    I don't think you grasp how intense the Woke agenda is, in the USA, and how it is being forced on a lot of unhappy people. The right think the Left is trying to destroy the country and remake it in a Woke style. A kind of cultural coup is underaway, and whites, Republicans and "patriots" are the target

    If you believe there is a coup against your democracy, then democracy can go hang, for a while. First you need to fight and WIN

    I'm not justifying this stance, of course, but I think this explains the poll above
    There’s a lot of incentive for commentators on the right to 'big up' the woke threat in order to justify undermining democracy in the US. From the outside it seems that without rampant gerry mandering & voter suppression, the Republican Party in it’s current form would have no chance of victory in any national election - it’s only through a continuous campaign of fear & loathing targetting their own supporters that they can justify these anti-democratic policies.
    The Left AND the Right in America are engaged in an insane Arms Race of Stupidity. One minute the Left does something crazy and Woke which will only provoke Republicans, a minute later the Republicans are duly provoked, and they do something crazy, in response.

    I really fear for the country. So polarised. Social media must take a lot of the blame

    The solution is a moderate Republican president. To calm the Right, but make peace with the Left. Doesn't seem likely
    The problem being that 'moderate' Republicans pander to the rich and big business.

    In many ways Trump, while being deranged and corrupt, was more moderate than the traditional GOP.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Today's infection data is promising.

    It looks increasingly likely that no more than a few thousand people will have to add to herd immunity the hard way.

    Weekend data is... less helpful.

    We will really know, Tuesday or Wednesday.
    The in hospital data is normally pretty reliable isn't it?

    When people started going on about the India virus there were 991 people in hospital, there's now 908.

    That's a reduction of nearly 10%.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,250
    Sandpit said:

    On topic, the problem in the US is that politicians at various levels are allowed to micromanage the process of elections. So we see state governors controlling numbers of polling stations, ID requirements accompanied by making it difficult to get ID, and the straightforward gerrymandering of districts.

    The U.K. should be thankful for the electoral commission and boundary commission - even those the former has skirted the line of impartiality in recent years, ask Darren Grimes.

    The problem was, that in the founding of the US, they attempted to redress the issue of hierarchy and inherited position by making lots of the positions elected. Much of this was pre-Constitutional.

    For example, in the UK, the local courts and elections were run by the Squireachy. As was local law enforcement.

    So, in the US, they had elected judges and sherifs instead.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,368

    Has there ever been a more boring race than today's Monaco Grand Prix

    Has there been an exciting monaco grand prix in recent history? The track just makes it impossible for much to happen.
    The one year a car ended up in the harbour was quite an event
    I did think you might have been thinking of James Garner's car in the film Grand Prix, although a quick Google suggests Alberto Ascari went in in 1956, four days before he died in an unrelated event.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Sandpit said:

    TimT said:

    Sandpit said:

    On topic, the problem in the US is that politicians at various levels are allowed to micromanage the process of elections. So we see state governors controlling numbers of polling stations, ID requirements accompanied by making it difficult to get ID, and the straightforward gerrymandering of districts.

    The U.K. should be thankful for the electoral commission and boundary commission - even those the former has skirted the line of impartiality in recent years, ask Darren Grimes.

    Although I "liked" that as I agree with you, the problem is the culture now in America too.

    If they had an "impartial" electoral commission like us then both sides would be seeking to stuff the electoral commission with their own partisans.

    It would be like Grimes but on steroids - and the problem then is once you've stuffed with your own lackeys it can be hard for the other side to reverse that. See: SCOTUS.
    Require an 80% quorum of the Senate to start any session for appointing members to the commission, and a supermajority of 75% to approve any nominees.
    But they can overturn all their own rules and standing orders with a simple vote in most cases.

    The reality is, that there probably needs to be a constitutional amendment upon this stuff, to restore any semblance of normality to US politics.
    I was at the International Conference of the Red Cross - the meeting of all the national committees, the ICRC, and all the States Parties to the Geneva Conventions, back win 1987 when, by simple majority, the conference overturned a rule that required a super majority to change. They did so by using a simple majority to overturn the rule about the requirement for a super majority.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,033

    Has there ever been a more boring race than today's Monaco Grand Prix

    Has there been an exciting monaco grand prix in recent history? The track just makes it impossible for much to happen.
    The one year a car ended up in the harbour was quite an event
    I did think you might have been thinking of James Garner's car in the film Grand Prix, although a quick Google suggests Alberto Ascari went in in 1956, four days before he died in an unrelated event.
    I am old you know !!!!!!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    MiG-29 of the Belarusian Air Force has returned to the airbase in Baranovichi after successfully intercepting Ryanair Athens-Vilnius flight and forcing it to land in Minsk. The plane with 171 passengers on board still hasn't been released.

    https://twitter.com/TadeuszGiczan/status/1396484882637983744?s=20
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,250

    Today's infection data is promising.

    It looks increasingly likely that no more than a few thousand people will have to add to herd immunity the hard way.

    Weekend data is... less helpful.

    We will really know, Tuesday or Wednesday.
    The in hospital data is normally pretty reliable isn't it?

    When people started going on about the India virus there were 991 people in hospital, there's now 908.

    That's a reduction of nearly 10%.
    Yes - it is fairly reliable when it comes in - not subject revision, usually
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