Um. What are we going to do about vax refuseniks? Big question facing the nations coming towards the end of their vaccine programme now I think.
Honestly, nothing. We unlock as normal and if they die then it's really no one's problem but their own. These people have chosen not to be vaccinated when it's been available to them all year. They're selfish arseholes and we can't delay returning to normality for them.
My sense is that Whitty et al don’t agree. There seems to be a subtle shifting of the goalposts whereby anti-vaxxers should be protected from their own decisions.
That's when it's time for politicians to step up and tell them to get fucked. A few anti-vaxxers can't hold the whole country hostage.
Agree, although there is a caveat.
Lockdowns were to keep the health service from imploding.
That could still happen in theory (although I suspect it won’t) with refuseniks needing treatment.
Therefore, should the call be made that anyone who has been offered and refused the vaccine for anything other than a legitimate medical reason should be refused NHS treatment if they become ill with Covid? Or be ranked lower in the triage priorities?
A nasty call perhaps, but one that may need to be made in Bolton if things deteriorate.
Or just charged. Something affordable (over time) for all but annoying. £1000?
I don’t think this government will charge for people using the NHS. There would be too many claims about privatisation.
Wales or Scotland might go that way, I suppose.
It is far more unlikely in Scotland than in England. It would be totally unacceptable to charge for NHS in Scotland in any circumstances. Your expertise shines through yet again NOT.
Owen Jones Rose @OwenJones84 · 2h A question that urgently needs to be answered is - did the government delay putting India on the red list because it wanted to prioritise negotiating a trade deal?
That decision could end up having disastrous consequences for a nation desperately hoping the nightmare was ending
Not sure we will ever be allowed the truth on this one. But it seems a slam dunk to me.
It would seem to be but maybe not if you take into account the government's continual hostility to border control during the last 15 months.
The government's defence re India would be that it was more 'modern' and 'honest' than Pakistan and was producing (and exporting) huge amounts of vaccine so was less of a risk and there were full cricket grounds to prove it.
Owen Jones Rose @OwenJones84 · 2h A question that urgently needs to be answered is - did the government delay putting India on the red list because it wanted to prioritise negotiating a trade deal?
That decision could end up having disastrous consequences for a nation desperately hoping the nightmare was ending
Not sure we will ever be allowed the truth on this one. But it seems a slam dunk to me.
Hmm. I doubt Boris is bothered about trade deals one way or the other these days. The Truss, however, is a different matter - all those juicy approval ratings amongst the Conservative membership.
Yes , just think another Faroes like deal and she will be revered. Imagine she could ever sign a deal even 1% better than the existing one, would that not be a miracle for the dumb Tory sheep.
Well, they got me voting for them last week because they tried Liberalism.
There's an obvious space for them in an age of state control, ever greater impingements on personal privacy, restricted choice, caveated freedoms and attitudes to identity so extreme they become illiberal - but I don't see them taking it.
It's not even that hard to get started. All it takes is for Ed Davey to say to the media he's going to give a powerful speech on what it means to be liberal and the future of liberalism, very well trailed, and then give a very good speech which is well briefed out afterwards.
That'd be a start.
The trouble is everyone has their own definition of liberalism irrespective of whether you've read Mill, Hobbs, Locke or anyone else.
I'm no longer in the Party but the fact remains a) there are more Conservative voters than Labour ones especially in the seats the LDs seek to win and b) the current Conservative Party has moved a long way from the pro-business small-state stance it advanced in the 80s and 90s in particular.
The other "truth" is people vote Liberal or LD under two sets of circumstances - one, when both the Conservative and Labour parties look useless (Feb 74) or when things are going well Conservative voters no longer fear voting Labour or LD because they know a non-Conservative Government won't affect their wealth (1997, 2001).
Short of a substantial schism within either major party (and that's unlikely currently), the LDs have, as always, to rely on matters outside their control. Either Johnsonian populism implodes dramatically (not inconceivable down the line but not likely now) or Labour becomes a non-socialist party of the centre or centre-left for whom Conservatives can vote (or vote LD) without fear.
If I were advising Ed Davey, I'd tell him to tack back towards One Nation Conservatism mixed with solid environmental policy based not on eco-authoritarianism but on the advance of technology (it's an area he knows well) while advocating fiscal sense (and that means recognising the problems of deficit AND debt and advocating solutions to turn the former into surplus and the successful reduction and management of the latter).
Just wondering what the choices would be for 'successful management' of the debt if, say, interest rates were at normal levels of 4 or 5%? I can't think of any.
I doubt if this overall solution to the woes of the LDs would work better than a proper alliance with Labour and the Greens.
Um. What are we going to do about vax refuseniks? Big question facing the nations coming towards the end of their vaccine programme now I think.
Honestly, nothing. We unlock as normal and if they die then it's really no one's problem but their own. These people have chosen not to be vaccinated when it's been available to them all year. They're selfish arseholes and we can't delay returning to normality for them.
My sense is that Whitty et al don’t agree. There seems to be a subtle shifting of the goalposts whereby anti-vaxxers should be protected from their own decisions.
That's when it's time for politicians to step up and tell them to get fucked. A few anti-vaxxers can't hold the whole country hostage.
Agree, although there is a caveat.
Lockdowns were to keep the health service from imploding.
That could still happen in theory (although I suspect it won’t) with refuseniks needing treatment.
Therefore, should the call be made that anyone who has been offered and refused the vaccine for anything other than a legitimate medical reason should be refused NHS treatment if they become ill with Covid? Or be ranked lower in the triage priorities?
A nasty call perhaps, but one that may need to be made in Bolton if things deteriorate.
Or just charged. Something affordable (over time) for all but annoying. £1000?
I don’t think this government will charge for people using the NHS. There would be too many claims about privatisation.
Wales or Scotland might go that way, I suppose.
It is far more unlikely in Scotland than in England. It would be totally unacceptable to charge for NHS in Scotland in any circumstances. Your expertise shines through yet again NOT.
The point is the SNP are most unlikely to be accused of ‘privatising the NHS.’
Albeit they could probably sell the whole lot to Donald Trump for $1 and him build hotels in every hospital and their adoring supporters would say it’s OK.
Owen Jones Rose @OwenJones84 · 2h A question that urgently needs to be answered is - did the government delay putting India on the red list because it wanted to prioritise negotiating a trade deal?
That decision could end up having disastrous consequences for a nation desperately hoping the nightmare was ending
Not sure we will ever be allowed the truth on this one. But it seems a slam dunk to me.
It would seem to be but maybe not if you take into account the government's continual hostility to border control during the last 15 months.
The government's defence re India would be that it was more 'modern' and 'honest' than Pakistan and was producing (and exporting) huge amounts of vaccine so was less of a risk and there were full cricket grounds to prove it.
It got moved to the red list the day after the PMs trade visit was cancelled.
Agree with everyone else; thanks Mr H for the thoughtful contributions over the years. I always wonder whether politics, and indeed life, is like tides. Which are, after all, very basic features of life on Earth. And while tides come in and out inexorably, they don't do so without a certain amount of to and fro. Although a few years ago the Greens made a massive advance and then fell back, they didn't fall back quite as far. So I think they'll fall back from this, but again not quite as far, and the next time they advance they'll do so to a higher point. Of, course, as well, 'there is a ride in the affairs of men, which, taken on the flood, leads on to fortune."
As a one time Lib activist and sometime LD party member and voter, I wonder whether the mess-up over the Coalition won't prove fatal. Once tides start to go out, they can't be stopped.
Tides do, of course, stop in time but yes, I don't think many Lib Dems realise quite how existential the crisis facing their party is. So many still seem to believe in the magic power of the isolated by-election, as here.
It's no longer enough to just be 'not the other two': there are other options available for that, and each with a much stronger identity and set of principles. Fuzzy localism is fine of itself but - as in 2010 - is a strategic dead-end because it all falls apart when the weak tactical votes face are confronted with the realities of power.
There is a very real chance that the Greens could supplant them, though that involves a considerable amount of agency on the part of both parties and, as I mentioned in the header, I'm far from convinced that the Greens have the mindset to capitalise on the opportunity.
Elsewhere the voting system has facilitated the emergence of new political movements. En Marche in France, FiveStar in Italy, Podemos in Spain, the Greens in Germany and so on.
The UK is stuck in the strait-jacket of FPTP and it is not healthy. It will never change because it has allowed the Tories to govern the country unfettered for most of my lifetime with about 40% of the vote.
In Spain despite PR Citizens has sink without trace and Podemos has also lost a lot of support. The PP and PSOE are now much more dominant again.
Perhaps the PP and PSOE got the message when their hegemony was threatened and Podemos starting winning lots of votes. Never going to happen in this country. Our system is fossilised for evermore.
Owen Jones Rose @OwenJones84 · 2h A question that urgently needs to be answered is - did the government delay putting India on the red list because it wanted to prioritise negotiating a trade deal?
That decision could end up having disastrous consequences for a nation desperately hoping the nightmare was ending
Not sure we will ever be allowed the truth on this one. But it seems a slam dunk to me.
It would seem to be but maybe not if you take into account the government's continual hostility to border control during the last 15 months.
The government's defence re India would be that it was more 'modern' and 'honest' than Pakistan and was producing (and exporting) huge amounts of vaccine so was less of a risk and there were full cricket grounds to prove it.
It got moved to the red list the day after the PMs trade visit was cancelled.
Sure, but the blather would be "the data changed and new information was received so the government acted promptly".
Bollox of course but that's what governments spout.
It's an indicator of growing economic activity but it's a reminder one of the definitions of inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. Whether it's holidays, indoor pub meals or anything else, the notion of £15 billion or more suddenly coming into the economy (10% of an alleged middle class cash reserve of £150 billion which we are all champing at the bit to spend apparently) isn't going to be without consequences.
The retail price of bikes has gone up about 15% in the last two years for an equivalent spec.
The price of my new motorbike went from approximately £14k in March when I ordered to £15,500 when it arrived last week.
There is a lot of inflationary pressure out there...
Did you have to pay the old or the new price?
The new... demand far outstrips supply due to shipping constraints. The dealer politely intimated that if I were not delighted with the 'adjusted' price then I should feel free to fuck myself.
I paid because me and my mate still think we are riding to North Africa by the end of the year.
I'd give that a like if I didn't think it was so outrageous!
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
On the day that Rangers fans will be turning the toon red white and blue and the only green to be seen will be patches of vomit, Sir Alex is on the nose as he so often is.
Billy Kay @billykayscot Lots of news re the Alex Ferguson film Never Give In. The most powerful moment in it is where he condemns Rangers for sectarianism as regards his marriage to Cathy, where a civil marriage was “acceptable” but not one in the chapel. “Bastards, I should’ve told them to fuck off”
The Greens are doing well at the moment by positioning themselves to the left of Starmer Labour in the big cities and also appealing to the NIMBY vote in the South (the 2019 Green manifesto proposed fewer new homes than any of the main parties were proposing). The latter could help them in Chesham and Amersham and could also take votes that might otherwise go LD.
Labour now hitting back at the Greens and their deal with the Tories and LDs over committee allocation in the London Assembly
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
Not even publication in book form - simply making them available as promised when they were acquired with public money and more recently an ICO order. One might suspect it's to do with mid-1940s India (as was then called) and its partition, but Southampton Uni is being sticky even with stuff up to 1934 (though that might just be inefficiency and/or lockdown).
The Greens only appeared to do well as some SNP people gave them list votes as giving SNP list is a wasted vote. They did NOTHING on constituency and on any other system the useless toerags would get ZERO seats. They are an abomination of gravy train nutjobs.
So bad that they outpolled Alba by a considerable margin. Says a lot about the latter.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
Lots of them vote Tory? Brexit? (I don't actually know, hence the question marks.)
But this recent BMJ piece is quite interesting for healthcare workers (never mind the general public).
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
Not even publication in book form - simply making them available as promised when they were acquired with public money and more recently an ICO order. One might suspect it's to do with mid-1940s India (as was then called) and its partition, but Southampton Uni is being sticky even with stuff up to 1934 (though that might just be inefficiency and/or lockdown).
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
Not even publication in book form - simply making them available as promised when they were acquired with public money and more recently an ICO order. One might suspect it's to do with mid-1940s India (as was then called) and its partition, but Southampton Uni is being sticky even with stuff up to 1934 (though that might just be inefficiency and/or lockdown).
It’s media images of dead and damaged children that turn people against Israel.
Easier to stop them being broadcast than to stop the bombing.
(Besides, Netanyahu must be feeling pretty pissed off with the media for exposing all his lucrative little ummm, sidelines.)
Not really, but they seemed to have become more blatant about this sort of thing. In the old days it would have been an 'accident'. The IDF don't even seem to be bothering with the old Hamas rocket team in the vicinity excuse.
It’s media images of dead and damaged children that turn people against Israel.
Easier to stop them being broadcast than to stop the bombing.
(Besides, Netanyahu must be feeling pretty pissed off with the media for exposing all his lucrative little ummm, sidelines.)
Not really, but they seemed to have become more blatant about this sort of thing. In the old days it would have been an 'accident'. The IDF don't even seem to be bothering with the old Hamas rocket team in the vicinity excuse.
They did give a warning to evacuate. And to be fair to the IDF, it’s not inconceivable some legitimate targets might try to use the media for protection. They do seem to have extraordinarily good intel.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
I'm surprised to hear that anti-vaxers can actually read and write.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
The strangest thing about people like that is that the direct experience of family members and friends doesn't alter their beliefs one iota.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Fair point. In my comment I was thinking more of the reluctant or lazy folk who haven't had the jab. I'd agree with you and others that there's no point in trying to persuade the lunatic QAnon types, but I think there's still some low hanging fruit that could be persuaded to get jabbed.
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
Not even publication in book form - simply making them available as promised when they were acquired with public money and more recently an ICO order. One might suspect it's to do with mid-1940s India (as was then called) and its partition, but Southampton Uni is being sticky even with stuff up to 1934 (though that might just be inefficiency and/or lockdown).
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
It could potentially be World War II-related. The full Queen Mother letters, quite plausibly with details of her collaboration plans with Halifax on them, have got another 100 years to run, on a restricted notice.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
The strangest thing about people like that is that the direct experience of family members and friends doesn't alter their beliefs one iota.
One of them posted that a family member had suffered a stroke not that long after vaccination. Every sympathy, but the betting must be that this would have happened anyway.
A clear risk is that people will tend to attribute any adverse medical event in the weeks after vaccination to the vaccine.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
I'm surprised to hear that anti-vaxers can actually read and write.
I also notice the language, with its curious emphasis on 'island resident', as if they didn't think that 'visitors' were somehow quite human.
On the day that Rangers fans will be turning the toon red white and blue and the only green to be seen will be patches of vomit, Sir Alex is on the nose as he so often is.
Billy Kay @billykayscot Lots of news re the Alex Ferguson film Never Give In. The most powerful moment in it is where he condemns Rangers for sectarianism as regards his marriage to Cathy, where a civil marriage was “acceptable” but not one in the chapel. “Bastards, I should’ve told them to fuck off”
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
I'm surprised to hear that anti-vaxers can actually read and write.
I also notice the language, with its curious emphasis on 'island resident', as if they didn't think that 'visitors' were somehow quite human.
They’re (we’re) either overners - a label you can never cast off however long you live here - or, worst of all, grockles.
A favourite story on the island is of the woman who was brought up in Chelmsford, whose family moved to the island not long after the war, when she was in her late teenage. She eventually died in her 80s, after a lifetime spent on the island during which she’d been fully involved in the island community including being at the centre of the work of several island charities.
The headline in the local paper was “popular Essex woman dies aged 86”
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Thank you David for all your articles over many years. I always read them.
Seconded. I've been lurking here most days since the time of Brown so have probably read 95% of your articles and they are always interesting and well argued. I look forward to your less regular future articles. Many thanks for the time you have invested here for all of is to benefit.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Crikey, that’s a somewhat extreme reaction...
I’ve had it taken down from Facebook as contrary to their policy. But it shows the type of strong abuse you can get for appearing to be in favour of vaccination, even though my original posting was strictly factual.
Here are some of the other comments I received:
putting an untested, blood clotting vaccine into perfectly healthy people’s body’s
how much you getting paid for endorsing this poison Ian
maybe a few years down the line you’ll feel massive regret for your part in ruining people’s life’s
If you can honestly think this is normal and not question it then there’s just no helping you.
I know someone two people with family members, one who was 39 and had a stroke after having it and the other one died. They died after having the vaccine and got told it was from natural causes
Fair point. In my comment I was thinking more of the reluctant or lazy folk who haven't had the jab. I'd agree with you and others that there's no point in trying to persuade the lunatic QAnon types, but I think there's still some low hanging fruit that could be persuaded to get jabbed.
25,000 adults over 50 in Newham have yet to have a first vaccination so in neck of the woods at least not a small number.
Reasons? Some will claim they are too busy (many are, working long hours for low wages). There will regrettably be a few who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons and for those people I have every sympathy.
There will be instances where the head of the family has taken a view and all family members have to follow that view - others will have been convinced the vaccine contains animal products despite all the information to be contrary.
Let's also not assume this is an "ethnic" thing - Mrs Stodge's Uncle, a Londoner in his 80s, won't have it and neither will have his son and family - I can't figure out why.
Every year people die of flu - some, who have the flu vaccination, may still catch it and succumb though I suspect the majority of influenza deaths are among the unvaccinated (I don't know).
This winter we may well see Covid taking a toll among the older unvaccinated population - that's not of course a reason to re-impose restrictions on all but it's a plausible scenario in terms of deaths and hospitalisations for which the NHS and Government should be aware.
Um. What are we going to do about vax refuseniks? Big question facing the nations coming towards the end of their vaccine programme now I think.
Honestly, nothing. We unlock as normal and if they die then it's really no one's problem but their own. These people have chosen not to be vaccinated when it's been available to them all year. They're selfish arseholes and we can't delay returning to normality for them.
My sense is that Whitty et al don’t agree. There seems to be a subtle shifting of the goalposts whereby anti-vaxxers should be protected from their own decisions.
Under the guise of “if they clog up the NHS then we all lose”
That's a time limited issue, it will be a bit like a fever. Loads of them will get sick, die and non-vaccinated people will get acquired immunity. Within weeks of reopening. That's the choice they've made by not taking the vaccine.
The problem is the makeup of the groups that are more likely to be anti-vax.
When you multiply that by the definition of "institutional racism" - a system that creates a worse outcome for minority groups, no matter intent or internal workings - then you can understand why permanent officials and politicians don't want to go down the "let them enjoy COVID" route.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Crikey, that’s a somewhat extreme reaction...
Middle of the road for some of these shitheads. Some of them will be trying to find IanB2's address and will up for a bit of vandalism....
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Crikey, that’s a somewhat extreme reaction...
My only reaction to anti-vaxxers is to be pissed off at the notion that them all contracting Covid might tip us back into lockdown.
There is a tiny chance of an unknown unknown from being vaccinated.
There is a very material risk of death/debilitating illness from not being vaccinated.
You have to be supremely stupid to take that risk of death option.
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
Not even publication in book form - simply making them available as promised when they were acquired with public money and more recently an ICO order. One might suspect it's to do with mid-1940s India (as was then called) and its partition, but Southampton Uni is being sticky even with stuff up to 1934 (though that might just be inefficiency and/or lockdown).
It's worth mentioning the Green success earlier in the month was partly the result of "informal" deals with the LDs and other parties.
I had a closer look at Surrey where the Conservatives lost 14 seats and particularly at the Guildford divisions.
In Shere, the LDs didn't stand but the Greens stood against the Guildford Greenbelt Group splitting the anti-Conservative vote and allowing the Conservatives to hold the seat by just 78. With the Greens winning 862 votes, it's fair to say had the Greens not stood, the Conservatives would have lost the seat.
In Guildford South-East, the Greens didn't stand but the LDs did but the Conservative still lost, this time to the Residents for Guildford and Villages (RGV), who did so well in the 2019 Borough elections.
In Guildford West, the sitting LD was allowed a free run against both Conservative and Labour but in Shalford and Worplesdon, the LDs and the RGV both contested the seats. In Ash, the LDs had a free run and took the seat. In Horsleys, the Greens again stood aside and Cabinet Julie Iles lost to the RGV despite the LDs also running.
The LDs fought off a strong RGV challenge in Guildford East but held Guildford North in the absence of any RGV or Green candidate.
All this tells me is the absence of any broad strategic thinking but a local hotch-potch of informal arrangements which are often the result of personalities who either get along or don't. It's also a question of areas of local strength or weakness.
There's also the presence (locally) of often anti-development groups who generally find the Greens quite easy to deal with (Shere being an obvious exception - don't know why) but the LDs less so. These groups are able to garner a lot of local support and, to give them their due, campaign hard and effectively.
What does this mean for national politics? The chimera of a broad progressive anti-Conservative alliance is probably just that. I can certainly envisage seats where there will be "deals" between the LDs, Greens and perhaps the odd Independent but the anti-Conservative parties are also often anti-Labour so what will need to happen is what happened in the run-up to 1997 when the electorate worked it out for themselves (not always correctly) which party was best placed to defeat the Conservatives where they lived.
So in Guildford who are your Residents groups? Are they LibDem Indies, Lab Indies, Tory Indies or just common or garden Nimbys?
Do they have a vision for Guildford, or are they mainly against things?
This is a fairly comprehensive article from the RTÉ Brussels correspondent on the issues surrounding Scottish independence and subsequent EU membership.
I loathe the idea of a border on the island of Britain, but it seems clear that the SNP will be working hard to finesse the argument. It's by no means a trump card for the Unionist campaign for the next referendum.
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
Not even publication in book form - simply making them available as promised when they were acquired with public money and more recently an ICO order. One might suspect it's to do with mid-1940s India (as was then called) and its partition, but Southampton Uni is being sticky even with stuff up to 1934 (though that might just be inefficiency and/or lockdown).
India? Japanese wartime treatment of British and Indian PoWs? Coup against Wilson?
Maybe the last because some participants might still be alive.
At a random guess - permanent officials. I've been told that some senior civil servants expect their successors to protect their reputations well after they are dead and buried. There was some TE Lawrence suff that, so they say, could only come out after the successor to a certain FO mandarin was himself dead and buried...
Thank you David for all your articles over many years. I always read them.
Seconded. I've been lurking here most days since the time of Brown so have probably read 95% of your articles and they are always interesting and well argued. I look forward to your less regular future articles. Many thanks for the time you have invested here for all of is to benefit.
So you have been lurking here since the start of the Second Age?
This is a fairly comprehensive article from the RTÉ Brussels correspondent on the issues surrounding Scottish independence and subsequent EU membership.
I loathe the idea of a border on the island of Britain, but it seems clear that the SNP will be working hard to finesse the argument. It's by no means a trump card for the Unionist campaign for the next referendum.
How about a border on the island of, lets's say, Ireland?
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
Not even publication in book form - simply making them available as promised when they were acquired with public money and more recently an ICO order. One might suspect it's to do with mid-1940s India (as was then called) and its partition, but Southampton Uni is being sticky even with stuff up to 1934 (though that might just be inefficiency and/or lockdown).
Thank you David for all your articles over many years. I always read them.
Seconded. I've been lurking here most days since the time of Brown so have probably read 95% of your articles and they are always interesting and well argued. I look forward to your less regular future articles. Many thanks for the time you have invested here for all of is to benefit.
So you have been lurking here since the start of the Second Age?
Um. What are we going to do about vax refuseniks? Big question facing the nations coming towards the end of their vaccine programme now I think.
Honestly, nothing. We unlock as normal and if they die then it's really no one's problem but their own. These people have chosen not to be vaccinated when it's been available to them all year. They're selfish arseholes and we can't delay returning to normality for them.
My sense is that Whitty et al don’t agree. There seems to be a subtle shifting of the goalposts whereby anti-vaxxers should be protected from their own decisions.
That's when it's time for politicians to step up and tell them to get fucked. A few anti-vaxxers can't hold the whole country hostage.
Every antivaxxer seems to believe they're "very healthy", and they'll "know how their body will react" to Covid-19 rather than bothering with "experimental gene therapy".
Um. What are we going to do about vax refuseniks? Big question facing the nations coming towards the end of their vaccine programme now I think.
Honestly, nothing. We unlock as normal and if they die then it's really no one's problem but their own. These people have chosen not to be vaccinated when it's been available to them all year. They're selfish arseholes and we can't delay returning to normality for them.
My sense is that Whitty et al don’t agree. There seems to be a subtle shifting of the goalposts whereby anti-vaxxers should be protected from their own decisions.
Under the guise of “if they clog up the NHS then we all lose”
That's a time limited issue, it will be a bit like a fever. Loads of them will get sick, die and non-vaccinated people will get acquired immunity. Within weeks of reopening. That's the choice they've made by not taking the vaccine.
The problem is the makeup of the groups that are more likely to be anti-vax.
When you multiply that by the definition of "institutional racism" - a system that creates a worse outcome for minority groups, no matter intent or internal workings - then you can understand why permanent officials and politicians don't want to go down the "let them enjoy COVID" route.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Crikey, that’s a somewhat extreme reaction...
My only reaction to anti-vaxxers is to be pissed off at the notion that them all contracting Covid might tip us back into lockdown.
There is a tiny chance of an unknown unknown from being vaccinated.
There is a very material risk of death/debilitating illness from not being vaccinated.
You have to be supremely stupid to take that risk of death option.
They do and fuck em
If they work in a public facing role mandate the jabs or they don't work too
Um. What are we going to do about vax refuseniks? Big question facing the nations coming towards the end of their vaccine programme now I think.
Honestly, nothing. We unlock as normal and if they die then it's really no one's problem but their own. These people have chosen not to be vaccinated when it's been available to them all year. They're selfish arseholes and we can't delay returning to normality for them.
My sense is that Whitty et al don’t agree. There seems to be a subtle shifting of the goalposts whereby anti-vaxxers should be protected from their own decisions.
That's when it's time for politicians to step up and tell them to get fucked. A few anti-vaxxers can't hold the whole country hostage.
Every antivaxxer seems to believe they're "very healthy", and they'll "know how their body will react" to Covid-19 rather than bothering with "experimental gene therapy".
Completely off topic, it is rather strange the lengths ‘they’ are going to, to prevent Mountbatten’s diaries from being published.
Not even publication in book form - simply making them available as promised when they were acquired with public money and more recently an ICO order. One might suspect it's to do with mid-1940s India (as was then called) and its partition, but Southampton Uni is being sticky even with stuff up to 1934 (though that might just be inefficiency and/or lockdown).
India? Japanese wartime treatment of British and Indian PoWs? Coup against Wilson?
Maybe the last because some participants might still be alive.
At a random guess - permanent officials. I've been told that some senior civil servants expect their successors to protect their reputations well after they are dead and buried. There was some TE Lawrence suff that, so they say, could only come out after the successor to a certain FO mandarin was himself dead and buried...
Possible. As an aside, one of my teachers had known Lawrence.
If it is India, then the Bengal Famine remains sensitive.
Covid-19 infections in adults of all ages fell by 80 per cent five weeks after a first dose of Pfizer , Moderna or AstraZeneca vaccine, according to Italian research published on Saturday.
The first such study by a European Union country on the real-world impact of its immunisation campaign was carried out by Italy's National Institute of Health (ISS) and the Ministry of Health on 13.7 million people vaccinated nationwide.
The analysis showed that the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection, hospitalisation, and death decreased progressively after the first two weeks following the initial vaccination.
"As of 35 days after the first dose, there is an 80 per cent reduction in infections, 90 per cent reduction in hospitalisations, and 95 per cent reduction in deaths," the ISS said, adding that the same pattern was seen in both men and women regardless of age.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Um. What are we going to do about vax refuseniks? Big question facing the nations coming towards the end of their vaccine programme now I think.
Honestly, nothing. We unlock as normal and if they die then it's really no one's problem but their own. These people have chosen not to be vaccinated when it's been available to them all year. They're selfish arseholes and we can't delay returning to normality for them.
My sense is that Whitty et al don’t agree. There seems to be a subtle shifting of the goalposts whereby anti-vaxxers should be protected from their own decisions.
That's when it's time for politicians to step up and tell them to get fucked. A few anti-vaxxers can't hold the whole country hostage.
Every antivaxxer seems to believe they're "very healthy", and they'll "know how their body will react" to Covid-19 rather than bothering with "experimental gene therapy".
Perhaps it's the way the science of vaccines is communicated that makes some people think like that. They fixate on the idea that the vaccine changes their body in some way that they can't understand.
Um. What are we going to do about vax refuseniks? Big question facing the nations coming towards the end of their vaccine programme now I think.
Honestly, nothing. We unlock as normal and if they die then it's really no one's problem but their own. These people have chosen not to be vaccinated when it's been available to them all year. They're selfish arseholes and we can't delay returning to normality for them.
My sense is that Whitty et al don’t agree. There seems to be a subtle shifting of the goalposts whereby anti-vaxxers should be protected from their own decisions.
Under the guise of “if they clog up the NHS then we all lose”
That's a time limited issue, it will be a bit like a fever. Loads of them will get sick, die and non-vaccinated people will get acquired immunity. Within weeks of reopening. That's the choice they've made by not taking the vaccine.
The problem is the makeup of the groups that are more likely to be anti-vax.
When you multiply that by the definition of "institutional racism" - a system that creates a worse outcome for minority groups, no matter intent or internal workings - then you can understand why permanent officials and politicians don't want to go down the "let them enjoy COVID" route.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
It's not about campaigning. But who is going to sign off on a policy that will fail the Institutional Racism test?
Fun story - the Nimrod replacement comedy. The aircraft was ground because the air safety people in the RAF said that it was un-airworthy and pretty much unfixable. OK, said the senior civl servants and air marshals. Lets do what we always do - order them to declare it airworthy.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) changes in human right law etc had had an interesting effect. They could still order the unfortunate officer, on pain of court martial, to declare the plane airworthy. But the responsibility for the airworthiness (or not) would also be borne by the person giving the order. Criminally responsible.... Senior people responsible? Unthinkable!
They demanded that ministers issue the order. Ministers refused.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Anti-vaxxers in America seem to be tied in with the alt-right, Trumpsky lot. Is the same sort of thing true here, which would link to Brexiteers? There's no obvious connection between the two issues but if they are promoted on the same sites...
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Yes it is a bit lazy. But there is a definite skew towards *some* minority groups in the refuseniks.
Interestingly, a couple of the middle class refuseniks I know are using the "right to their own facts" argument.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Anti-vaxxers in America seem to be tied in with the alt-right, Trumpsky lot. Is the same sort of thing true here, which would link to Brexiteers? There's no obvious connection between the two issues but if they are promoted on the same sites...
This is only true since Trump. Prior to Trump, anti-vaxxers were left wingers in the US.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Anti-vaxxers in America seem to be tied in with the alt-right, Trumpsky lot. Is the same sort of thing true here, which would link to Brexiteers? There's no obvious connection between the two issues but if they are promoted on the same sites...
There seem to be a series of groups across the spectrum - there are quite a few of the Goop* type middle class ant-vaxers out there. The vaccines would damage their connection to Gaia etc...
I don't know the Brexiter types, so can't say.
*Which is worse than some of the grimdark in 40K, IMHO.... The horror.... the horror...
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Anti-vaxxers in America seem to be tied in with the alt-right, Trumpsky lot. Is the same sort of thing true here, which would link to Brexiteers? There's no obvious connection between the two issues but if they are promoted on the same sites...
This is only true since Trump. Prior to Trump, anti-vaxxers were left wingers in the US.
This clip from Rachel Maddow shows how politicised mask wearing is in the US.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Anti-vaxxers in America seem to be tied in with the alt-right, Trumpsky lot. Is the same sort of thing true here, which would link to Brexiteers? There's no obvious connection between the two issues but if they are promoted on the same sites...
This is only true since Trump. Prior to Trump, anti-vaxxers were left wingers in the US.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Yes it is a bit lazy. But there is a definite skew towards *some* minority groups in the refuseniks.
Interestingly, a couple of the middle class refuseniks I know are using the "right to their own facts" argument.
I've not seen the figures for Newham. 25,000 over 50s with no first vaccination in an ethnically diverse area. It's easy to draw conclusions but I suspect it's complex and brings in economic factors as well as cultural.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Crikey, that’s a somewhat extreme reaction...
I’ve had it taken down from Facebook as contrary to their policy. But it shows the type of strong abuse you can get for appearing to be in favour of vaccination, even though my original posting was strictly factual.
Here are some of the other comments I received:
putting an untested, blood clotting vaccine into perfectly healthy people’s body’s
how much you getting paid for endorsing this poison Ian
maybe a few years down the line you’ll feel massive regret for your part in ruining people’s life’s
If you can honestly think this is normal and not question it then there’s just no helping you.
I know someone two people with family members, one who was 39 and had a stroke after having it and the other one died. They died after having the vaccine and got told it was from natural causes
It’s quite extraordinary that not only do they spew so much bile, and so much stupidity, but they can’t even spell and punctuate correctly.
Just a straw in the wind. Mrs Anabob, who has zero interest in politics, was really pissed off last night. “I’m not going to see my cousin’s wedding cancelled AGAIN because a bunch of stupid people refuse to take the vaccine.” She was furious. There will be more like her.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Crikey, that’s a somewhat extreme reaction...
I’ve had it taken down from Facebook as contrary to their policy. But it shows the type of strong abuse you can get for appearing to be in favour of vaccination, even though my original posting was strictly factual.
Here are some of the other comments I received:
putting an untested, blood clotting vaccine into perfectly healthy people’s body’s
how much you getting paid for endorsing this poison Ian
maybe a few years down the line you’ll feel massive regret for your part in ruining people’s life’s
If you can honestly think this is normal and not question it then there’s just no helping you.
I know someone two people with family members, one who was 39 and had a stroke after having it and the other one died. They died after having the vaccine and got told it was from natural causes
It’s quite extraordinary that not only do they spew so much bile, and so much stupidity, but they can’t even spell and punctuate correctly.
o/T but while on the subject of how the English language is spelt I am coincidentally reading this -
Allegedly the Graun management made the mistake of paying printers on lines of type set, rather than actual finished product, and that included correction of errors.
Not really, who is going to campaign for endless lockdown because a few black and Muslim people have refused the vaccine?
That's a bit lazy. I know there are white people who are also refusing the vaccine. It's been my experience illness and stupidity are quite capable of crossing all barriers.
Yes it is a bit lazy. But there is a definite skew towards *some* minority groups in the refuseniks.
Interestingly, a couple of the middle class refuseniks I know are using the "right to their own facts" argument.
I've not seen the figures for Newham. 25,000 over 50s with no first vaccination in an ethnically diverse area. It's easy to draw conclusions but I suspect it's complex and brings in economic factors as well as cultural.
The common factor is, I suspect, self radicalisation via social media and social grouping. So they fall down the rabbit hole of believing this stuff a mate sent them, and reading more and more of it. And believing it, since it becomes true majority of how they get information on a subject.
The Kathy Flowers character in "Death to 2020" is a perfect parody of the type - a genial soccer mom, with QAon Fascist beliefs bolted on from stuff she read on Facebook.
It's worth mentioning the Green success earlier in the month was partly the result of "informal" deals with the LDs and other parties.
I had a closer look at Surrey where the Conservatives lost 14 seats and particularly at the Guildford divisions.
In Shere, the LDs didn't stand but the Greens stood against the Guildford Greenbelt Group splitting the anti-Conservative vote and allowing the Conservatives to hold the seat by just 78. With the Greens winning 862 votes, it's fair to say had the Greens not stood, the Conservatives would have lost the seat.
In Guildford South-East, the Greens didn't stand but the LDs did but the Conservative still lost, this time to the Residents for Guildford and Villages (RGV), who did so well in the 2019 Borough elections.
In Guildford West, the sitting LD was allowed a free run against both Conservative and Labour but in Shalford and Worplesdon, the LDs and the RGV both contested the seats. In Ash, the LDs had a free run and took the seat. In Horsleys, the Greens again stood aside and Cabinet Julie Iles lost to the RGV despite the LDs also running.
The LDs fought off a strong RGV challenge in Guildford East but held Guildford North in the absence of any RGV or Green candidate.
All this tells me is the absence of any broad strategic thinking but a local hotch-potch of informal arrangements which are often the result of personalities who either get along or don't. It's also a question of areas of local strength or weakness.
There's also the presence (locally) of often anti-development groups who generally find the Greens quite easy to deal with (Shere being an obvious exception - don't know why) but the LDs less so. These groups are able to garner a lot of local support and, to give them their due, campaign hard and effectively.
What does this mean for national politics? The chimera of a broad progressive anti-Conservative alliance is probably just that. I can certainly envisage seats where there will be "deals" between the LDs, Greens and perhaps the odd Independent but the anti-Conservative parties are also often anti-Labour so what will need to happen is what happened in the run-up to 1997 when the electorate worked it out for themselves (not always correctly) which party was best placed to defeat the Conservatives where they lived.
So in Guildford who are your Residents groups? Are they LibDem Indies, Lab Indies, Tory Indies or just common or garden Nimbys?
Do they have a vision for Guildford, or are they mainly against things?
OK where to start is difficult on this one. I am in the Guildford Borough and represented on the Borough by 2 r4gv and 1 Greenbelt and by a r4gv on the County Council. Normally this is as safe Tory as you can get.
There are 2 residents groups, r4gv and Greenbelt. r4gv is the main one. Both are in coalition with the LDs in the Borough. Both have the same origin really - see below:
The r4gv in itself is a coalition of ex Tories, one ex LD and a lot of none of these. The ex Tories are not necessarily on the left of the Tories. They do not follow a political ideology but are anti the Guildford Tories with a passion and not because they are Tories.
In fact the Mole Valley Tories (Mole Valley has several Borough seats in Guildford) really don't like the Guildford Tories either. It isn't political.
Well you have to have followed the history of the what happened here to know why and that is too long to do, but lets just say it has been interesting (coup, councilor sent down for fraud, trying to impose a mayor [rejected by 90%], passing a spectacularly flawed local plan the day before local elections where you know you are going to get thrown out, etc, etc).
The Tories are trying to regroup now, but the damage was done.
To give you one example of the impact of that damage. A byelection in the Lovelace ward, which has never been won by anyone but the Conservatives was lost to the LDs with 70% of the vote. It is in the Mole Valley constituency so the Mole Valley Conservatives put up the Tory candidate (he was and is good). The Guildford Conservatives refused to support him even though it was for Guildford Borough.
Once r4gv was set up both the LD victor and the Tory candidate both defected to r4gv.
Rather than trying to find ways of punishing anti-vaxxers ('let them die, charge them for oxygen' etc.), wouldn't it be more productive, and in all our interests, to use publicity, peer pressure, and even bribes (yes, I can see the problem) to persuade them to get the jab? Given the amount another lockdown would cost, I'd be throwing money at convincing anti-vaxxers that they're wrong, both morally and medically, to dip out.
One tangles with the anti-vaxers at your peril!
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
Crikey, that’s a somewhat extreme reaction...
I’ve had it taken down from Facebook as contrary to their policy. But it shows the type of strong abuse you can get for appearing to be in favour of vaccination, even though my original posting was strictly factual.
Here are some of the other comments I received:
putting an untested, blood clotting vaccine into perfectly healthy people’s body’s
how much you getting paid for endorsing this poison Ian
maybe a few years down the line you’ll feel massive regret for your part in ruining people’s life’s
If you can honestly think this is normal and not question it then there’s just no helping you.
I know someone two people with family members, one who was 39 and had a stroke after having it and the other one died. They died after having the vaccine and got told it was from natural causes
It’s quite extraordinary that not only do they spew so much bile, and so much stupidity, but they can’t even spell and punctuate correctly.
Extraordinary? I’d say it was eminently predictable.
Just a straw in the wind. Mrs Anabob, who has zero interest in politics, was really pissed off last night. “I’m not going to see my cousin’s wedding cancelled AGAIN because a bunch of stupid people refuse to take the vaccine.” She was furious. There will be more like her.
A large majority of us on these boards, for a start.
If I have to continue teaching under these impossible restrictions for another year because of some twats reading BS on the internet I will not be responsible for my actions.
Comments
The government's defence re India would be that it was more 'modern' and 'honest' than Pakistan and was producing (and exporting) huge amounts of vaccine so was less of a risk and there were full cricket grounds to prove it.
I doubt if this overall solution to the woes of the LDs would work better than a proper alliance with Labour and the Greens.
Albeit they could probably sell the whole lot to Donald Trump for $1 and him build hotels in every hospital and their adoring supporters would say it’s OK.
Historically, these ideas haven’t been very successful.
Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-57120354
Moreover, I am not at all sure that Wales needs to have a greater dependency on welfare and benefits.
Finally, there’s going to be a lot of tension about the fact that as Wales lives far beyond its means the English will be paying for it.
If it is a halfway house whereby the UBI exists but means-testing does too - or worse, a means-tested UBI, then its a terrible, terrible idea.
Eliminating means-testing is the key.
https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/
And another minuscule image- anyone know how to fix that?
Bollox of course but that's what governments spout.
(And of course he owns the most famous pb.com posting ever -- just as voting in GE 2017 was ending).
https://www.spectator.co.uk/podcast/leo-mckinstry-emily-hill-and-daisy-dunn
The numbers who have had at least one dose in Bolton are:
80+ 96.8%
75-79 100%
70-74 98.5%
65-69 94.6%
60-64 98.2%
55-59 96.0%
50-54 88.9%
45-49 73.1%
40-44 65.5%
Which suggests that vaccination is providing good protection.
Billy Kay
@billykayscot
Lots of news re the Alex Ferguson film Never Give In. The most powerful moment in it is where he condemns Rangers for sectarianism as regards his marriage to Cathy, where a civil marriage was “acceptable” but not one in the chapel. “Bastards, I should’ve told them to fuck off”
Labour now hitting back at the Greens and their deal with the Tories and LDs over committee allocation in the London Assembly
https://twitter.com/LeonieC/status/1393465536982433796?s=20
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/14/africa/seychelles-covid-vaccination-infection-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
https://twitter.com/sommervilletv/status/1393543981393395715?s=20
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1393545562239250434?s=20
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/15/cabinet-office-blocks-publication-of-lord-mountbattens-diaries
https://reaction.life/eu-recovery-fund-is-fiscal-union-by-the-back-door/
https://road.cc/content/news/southampton-bike-lane-be-ripped-out-tories-win-council-283235
It’s media images of dead and damaged children that turn people against Israel.
Easier to stop them being broadcast than to stop the bombing.
(Besides, Netanyahu must be feeling pretty pissed off with the media for exposing all his lucrative little ummm, sidelines.)
But this recent BMJ piece is quite interesting for healthcare workers (never mind the general public).
https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1056
Time for some stick to go with the carrot.
Those on PB yesterday may remember that I did my best to help an unhappy woman who had been turned away from our local vaccination centre because they only had AZN, she was under 40, and hadn’t sought prior advice from her GP.
I posted the advice I had received from the NHS Trust, to avoid anyone else ending up in the same situation, on the local Facebook noticeboard. When I logged in this morning I was welcomed by a flood of comments from local anti-vaxers including one that accused me of “escorting island residents to the gas chambers”.
You’ve finally been exposed!
Who knows, though. It’s all fog of war.
Hope no civilians injured/killed
Hmmm.
Does not work either for cut and paste or uploads.
I wonder if we bust OGH's quota? Hotlinking images works.
Maybe the last because some participants might still be alive.
bit but am having no joy on the img tags...got there in the end!A clear risk is that people will tend to attribute any adverse medical event in the weeks after vaccination to the vaccine.
A favourite story on the island is of the woman who was brought up in Chelmsford, whose family moved to the island not long after the war, when she was in her late teenage. She eventually died in her 80s, after a lifetime spent on the island during which she’d been fully involved in the island community including being at the centre of the work of several island charities.
The headline in the local paper was “popular Essex woman dies aged 86”
Here are some of the other comments I received:
putting an untested, blood clotting vaccine into perfectly healthy people’s body’s
how much you getting paid for endorsing this poison Ian
maybe a few years down the line you’ll feel massive regret for your part in ruining people’s life’s
If you can honestly think this is normal and not question it then there’s just no helping you.
I know someone two people with family members, one who was 39 and had a stroke after having it and the other one died. They died after having the vaccine and got told it was from natural causes
Reasons? Some will claim they are too busy (many are, working long hours for low wages). There will regrettably be a few who cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons and for those people I have every sympathy.
There will be instances where the head of the family has taken a view and all family members have to follow that view - others will have been convinced the vaccine contains animal products despite all the information to be contrary.
Let's also not assume this is an "ethnic" thing - Mrs Stodge's Uncle, a Londoner in his 80s, won't have it and neither will have his son and family - I can't figure out why.
Every year people die of flu - some, who have the flu vaccination, may still catch it and succumb though I suspect the majority of influenza deaths are among the unvaccinated (I don't know).
This winter we may well see Covid taking a toll among the older unvaccinated population - that's not of course a reason to re-impose restrictions on all but it's a plausible scenario in terms of deaths and hospitalisations for which the NHS and Government should be aware.
When you multiply that by the definition of "institutional racism" - a system that creates a worse outcome for minority groups, no matter intent or internal workings - then you can understand why permanent officials and politicians don't want to go down the "let them enjoy COVID" route.
There is a tiny chance of an unknown unknown from being vaccinated.
There is a very material risk of death/debilitating illness from not being vaccinated.
You have to be supremely stupid to take that risk of death option.
Do they have a vision for Guildford, or are they mainly against things?
https://us.v-cdn.net/5020679/uploads/editor/ff/csb9i2hwxt35.png
Very meta - but he means this option in Imugr -
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2021/0515/1221711-brexit-scotland-independence-eu/
I loathe the idea of a border on the island of Britain, but it seems clear that the SNP will be working hard to finesse the argument. It's by no means a trump card for the Unionist campaign for the next referendum.
http://r4gv.org.uk/
If they work in a public facing role mandate the jabs or they don't work too
If it is India, then the Bengal Famine remains sensitive.
The first such study by a European Union country on the real-world impact of its immunisation campaign was carried out by Italy's National Institute of Health (ISS) and the Ministry of Health on 13.7 million people vaccinated nationwide.
The analysis showed that the risk of SARS-CoV-2 infection, hospitalisation, and death decreased progressively after the first two weeks following the initial vaccination.
"As of 35 days after the first dose, there is an 80 per cent reduction in infections, 90 per cent reduction in hospitalisations, and 95 per cent reduction in deaths," the ISS said, adding that the same pattern was seen in both men and women regardless of age.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9581035/Law-student-29-said-women-vaginas-faces-disciplinary-action-university.html
Fun story - the Nimrod replacement comedy. The aircraft was ground because the air safety people in the RAF said that it was un-airworthy and pretty much unfixable. OK, said the senior civl servants and air marshals. Lets do what we always do - order them to declare it airworthy.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) changes in human right law etc had had an interesting effect. They could still order the unfortunate officer, on pain of court martial, to declare the plane airworthy. But the responsibility for the airworthiness (or not) would also be borne by the person giving the order. Criminally responsible.... Senior people responsible? Unthinkable!
They demanded that ministers issue the order. Ministers refused.
So the planes were chopped up.
Interestingly, a couple of the middle class refuseniks I know are using the "right to their own facts" argument.
I don't know the Brexiter types, so can't say.
*Which is worse than some of the grimdark in 40K, IMHO.... The horror.... the horror...
https://twitter.com/MaddowBlog/status/1393045743548698627
Strange - I am watching a big march in Paris re the ongoing troubles in Israel / Gaza strip - considering it was banned .....
Police in riot gear just rocked up - sure it will end well
The evolution of Trump into a right wingnut icon is an interesting one.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/may/14/from-a-standing-fart-readers-on-their-favourite-grauniad-mistakes
Allegedly the Graun management made the mistake of paying printers on lines of type set, rather than actual finished product, and that included correction of errors.
But that can't explain the antivaxxers ...
The Kathy Flowers character in "Death to 2020" is a perfect parody of the type - a genial soccer mom, with QAon Fascist beliefs bolted on from stuff she read on Facebook.
There are 2 residents groups, r4gv and Greenbelt. r4gv is the main one. Both are in coalition with the LDs in the Borough. Both have the same origin really - see below:
The r4gv in itself is a coalition of ex Tories, one ex LD and a lot of none of these. The ex Tories are not necessarily on the left of the Tories. They do not follow a political ideology but are anti the Guildford Tories with a passion and not because they are Tories.
In fact the Mole Valley Tories (Mole Valley has several Borough seats in Guildford) really don't like the Guildford Tories either. It isn't political.
Well you have to have followed the history of the what happened here to know why and that is too long to do, but lets just say it has been interesting (coup, councilor sent down for fraud, trying to impose a mayor [rejected by 90%], passing a spectacularly flawed local plan the day before local elections where you know you are going to get thrown out, etc, etc).
The Tories are trying to regroup now, but the damage was done.
To give you one example of the impact of that damage. A byelection in the Lovelace ward, which has never been won by anyone but the Conservatives was lost to the LDs with 70% of the vote. It is in the Mole Valley constituency so the Mole Valley Conservatives put up the Tory candidate (he was and is good). The Guildford Conservatives refused to support him even though it was for Guildford Borough.
Once r4gv was set up both the LD victor and the Tory candidate both defected to r4gv.
It is complicated.
If I have to continue teaching under these impossible restrictions for another year because of some twats reading BS on the internet I will not be responsible for my actions.