Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

No More to be Said? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited May 13 in General
imageNo More to be Said? – politicalbetting.com

No-one cares about Northern Ireland. No-one, bar its inhabitants, ever really has. Not the British Government which washed its hands of the province 100 years ago, leaving it to Stormont’s tender care. Not Britain’s political parties, declining to offer their political vision to its voters. Not United Kingdom voters who ignored Brexit’s consequences for its peace settlement. Not the current Prime Minister who signed up to a Protocol he either did not understand or had no intention of keeping. Not the EU either – willing to ignore its delicate political balance in order to pursue its vendetta against a vaccine manufacturer and its main client. The Irish government cares, of course, or says it does – but this is rather in the manner that a person with a persistent stabbing pain will say that he cares about that pain. And a few politicians – here and in the US – care because it makes them look good or because they need votes. But it is largely unloved, the unwanted child left out in the cold stubbornly refusing to die.So it is understandable that there is a weary response to the coroner’s finding in the inquests into the killings of 10 innocent civilians in August 1971 in Ballymurphy by members of the Paras during Operation Demetrius, the government’s attempt to arrest IRA members en masse. The soldiers’ behaviour was wrong. What else can possibly be said?

Read the full story here

«13456789

Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,844
    1st
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    I care.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    I think the best solution to this is Northern Ireland independence, not unification.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310
    Leon said:

    THE WEATHER

    Extremely depressing. I'm off this whole week and it's raining the whole time. Might try and get last minute flights to Portugal on Monday.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,103

    I think the best solution to this is Northern Ireland independence, not unification.

    Fine by me, but can they afford it?
    If Scexit is felt to be economically challenging for the breakaway nation, Norexit must be practically impossible.
  • MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    THE WEATHER

    Extremely depressing. I'm off this whole week and it's raining the whole time. Might try and get last minute flights to Portugal on Monday.
    On the bright side it is doing my allotment the world of good. As long as summer kicks in by the end of June.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,201
    Truth and Reconciliation in South Africa was needed because there was a new regime celebrating the wholesale overthrow of what went before. I'm not sure that can be said of NI.

    Best chance for NI is a couple of generations who could not countenance a return to the closed sectarian minds, to have it condemned to the past. It will never be like Derbyshire or Kent, but the hope is that history is a guide on what to avoid, not what to emulate.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,572
    Watching old film of Northern Ireland in the 70s makes Brixton and Toxteth look like a picnic.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    It’s fifty fucking years ago. I do not believe anyone alive is crippled by anguish and grief over this
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,868
    Leon said:

    It’s fifty fucking years ago. I do not believe anyone alive is crippled by anguish and grief over this

    Except their families?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,266
    Leon said:

    It’s fifty fucking years ago. I do not believe anyone alive is crippled by anguish and grief over this

    There'll be about as many people as there will be people alive crippled by anguish and grief about statues of people who died centuries ago being pulled down.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,868

    I think the best solution to this is Northern Ireland independence, not unification.

    Nah, that was favoured by Ulster Third Way - who were slightly influenced by the Far Right...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    THE WEATHER

    Extremely depressing. I'm off this whole week and it's raining the whole time. Might try and get last minute flights to Portugal on Monday.
    Don’t. Wait. Issues (I was planning the same)

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/travel/news/thousands-brits-could-turned-away-24097897


  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 2,153
    Interesting read on the limitations of current science practice laid bare by Covid (forwarded by a colleague who has been invovled in running some of the Covid trials)
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01246-x

    A common problem we face. It's relatively easy to set up a trial, particularly if you're embedded in a hospital. It's much harder to set up a good trial which involves agreements with other people/institutions and - particularly - data sharing agreements.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353

    Leon said:

    It’s fifty fucking years ago. I do not believe anyone alive is crippled by anguish and grief over this

    There'll be about as many people as there will be people alive crippled by anguish and grief about statues of people who died centuries ago being pulled down.
    10 British people died in Ballymurphy. 10. FIFTY YEARS AGO

    120,000 Brits have died these last 12 months, in a plague which was potentially avoidable.

    Focusing on such a distant and comparatively tiny tragedy is a kind of decadence. Like focusing on ‘racist’ statues rather than, say, racist gang rape
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,266
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s fifty fucking years ago. I do not believe anyone alive is crippled by anguish and grief over this

    There'll be about as many people as there will be people alive crippled by anguish and grief about statues of people who died centuries ago being pulled down.
    10 British people died in Ballymurphy. 10. FIFTY YEARS AGO

    120,000 Brits have died these last 12 months, in a plague which was potentially avoidable.

    Focusing on such a distant and comparatively tiny tragedy is a kind of decadence. Like focusing on ‘racist’ statues rather than, say, racist gang rape
    Or caring that a Council is removing statues?

    When Councils have removed statues and buildings all along.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,572
    edited May 13
    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 19,632
    The problem for Northern Ireland is that plenty of the people who live there don't care about the place. So I'm not sure why I should.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,871
    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    So he hasn't said anything of the sort then, just someone's interpretation?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    Another good thread, Cyclefree.

    Why then did it take a further 11 years for the truth to come out about Ballymurphy?...
    They did what governments do with inconvenient truths - keep them hidden for as long as possible in the hope that time will render them unjusticiable.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 19,632
    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I would like it very much if the limit of no more than 30 guests at a wedding remained in place until after 22 July.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    (FPT)
    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,572
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I would like it very much if the limit of no more than 30 guests at a wedding remained in place until after 22 July.
    Is it yours :E ?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 7,934

    1st

    I do too. I spent a lot of time in N Ireland in the early 1990s. The people there are, paradoxically, some of the most pleasant one could meet, providing they have not decided they want to kill you. It is a complex place, and the troubles were horrific. I am normally someone that believes in liberal principles of justice. However, in this case, just like with the Balkans, it is better to draw a line, accept it was a war and move on. That is definitely not forgetting or caring.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    So he hasn't said anything of the sort then, just someone's interpretation?
    The hints started with the scientists but have now reached ministerial level


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/13/covid-variant-found-in-india-may-delay-lifting-of-england-restrictions-minister-admits?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,868
    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    The Indian variant says "hello"!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 7,934

    I care.

    I do too. I spent a lot of time in N Ireland in the early 1990s. The people there are, paradoxically, some of the most pleasant one could meet, providing they have not decided they want to kill you. It is a complex place, and the troubles were horrific. I am normally someone that believes in liberal principles of justice. However, in this case, just like with the Balkans, it is better to draw a line, accept it was a war and move on. That is definitely not forgetting or caring. (there we are replied to the correct one this time!)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,871
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    So he hasn't said anything of the sort then, just someone's interpretation?
    The hints started with the scientists but have now reached ministerial level


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/13/covid-variant-found-in-india-may-delay-lifting-of-england-restrictions-minister-admits?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
    As ever, the headline does not correspond with the quote. He is just repeating what has been said before, that the government will make a decision taking into account the advice from SAGE. This isn't new.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,398
    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    Monday 17th May will happen.

    Monday 21st June won't happen.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,572
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    So he hasn't said anything of the sort then, just someone's interpretation?
    The hints started with the scientists but have now reached ministerial level


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/13/covid-variant-found-in-india-may-delay-lifting-of-england-restrictions-minister-admits?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
    Another corker of a word in that headline "admits".
  • MaffewMaffew Posts: 180
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 7,934
    tlg86 said:

    The problem for Northern Ireland is that plenty of the people who live there don't care about the place. So I'm not sure why I should.

    On the contrary, I think they care too much, at least about matters that others find hard to understand.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    He's just fucking around like he did with "No Deal" Brexit. Playing with expectations and seeking to control the atmosphere and the narrative. There is zero to worry about.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
    To be fair the Brummies know it’s fugly, and they are ripping down the facade

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/symphony-hall-frontage-ripped-off-17197344

    How many times can a city tear down and rebuild its centre, until they realise the Germans are right? Just replace everything with an exact facsimile of the city centre in about 1890
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,398
    tlg86 said:

    The problem for Northern Ireland is that plenty of the people who live there don't care about the place. So I'm not sure why I should.

    I think the issue is that most people are only interested in Northern Ireland only as a stick to beat their target with, or as a trophy to appeal to their target.

    Thus, most people who profess to care about it don't really. If they did they'd have highly nuanced, delicate and very complex views that took into account all communities.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,871
    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    So a more accurate headline would have been:

    "Covid variant found in India may not delay lifting of England restrictions, minister admits"
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,871

    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.

    Except the PM himself has said he sees nothing that dissuades him from continuing with the plan.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,357
    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    .
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s fifty fucking years ago. I do not believe anyone alive is crippled by anguish and grief over this

    There'll be about as many people as there will be people alive crippled by anguish and grief about statues of people who died centuries ago being pulled down.
    10 British people died in Ballymurphy. 10. FIFTY YEARS AGO

    120,000 Brits have died these last 12 months, in a plague which was potentially avoidable.

    Focusing on such a distant and comparatively tiny tragedy is a kind of decadence. Like focusing on ‘racist’ statues rather than, say, racist gang rape
    No, it's not.
    You're effectively arguing that the pandemic renders all other politics out of bounds, which is just silly.

    And what the two events have in common is the desire of governments to push back the assessment of responsibility as long as they possibly can.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 87,889
    edited May 13
    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    Indeed, if we don't unlock on 21st June having mostly been vaccinated by then we never will as there will always be some mutant variant of some form somewhere on the planet to be concerned about coming here.

    It would be a brave decision by Boris not to fully reopen then as it would see about 10%+ of the current Tory vote move en masse to ReformUK and give Starmer a boost without needing to get any new Labour voters
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,868
    RobD said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    So a more accurate headline would have been:

    "Covid variant found in India may not delay lifting of England restrictions, minister admits"
    Except that it's also been found in England...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 42,965
    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    Hello Tiers my old friend,
    It's good to lockdown with you again.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,871

    RobD said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    So a more accurate headline would have been:

    "Covid variant found in India may not delay lifting of England restrictions, minister admits"
    Except that it's also been found in England...
    So? Have you read the quotes?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 87,889
    On NI even if the government did apologise it happened under the Heath administration not this one
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,572
    edited May 13

    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.

    I took it to prevent myself getting Covid to be honest. If it doesn't offer sterlising immunity, you as an unvaccinated person are likely destined to catch it btw. Unvaccinated it's not very pleasent.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,266
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
    To be fair the Brummies know it’s fugly, and they are ripping down the facade

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/symphony-hall-frontage-ripped-off-17197344

    How many times can a city tear down and rebuild its centre, until they realise the Germans are right? Just replace everything with an exact facsimile of the city centre in about 1890
    So you expect London to tear down the Gherkin etc?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    He's just fucking around like he did with "No Deal" Brexit. Playing with expectations and seeking to control the atmosphere and the narrative. There is zero to worry about.
    Slightly more than zero, but I essentially agree.
    I would be surprised if restrictions are not lifted as scheduled in June.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 37,868

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
    To be fair the Brummies know it’s fugly, and they are ripping down the facade

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/symphony-hall-frontage-ripped-off-17197344

    How many times can a city tear down and rebuild its centre, until they realise the Germans are right? Just replace everything with an exact facsimile of the city centre in about 1890
    So you expect London to tear down the Gherkin etc?
    Or the Shard?

    (only kidding, @Leon :lol: )
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,355
    Nigelb said:

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.

    The inner shell is acoustically isolated from the outside. It's an engineering marvel.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 19,632
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I would like it very much if the limit of no more than 30 guests at a wedding remained in place until after 22 July.
    Is it yours :E ?
    No. :lol:

    My first cousin once removed is getting married for the - checks notes - fourth time. And I'm invited.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    kinabalu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    He's just fucking around like he did with "No Deal" Brexit. Playing with expectations and seeking to control the atmosphere and the narrative. There is zero to worry about.
    Cases of the Indian variant have tripled in, what, a week? Hospitalisations have plateaued

    Unfortunately there is something to worry about. I wish there wasn’t

    What we really need is conclusive proof that the vaccines (esp the one we use so much: AZ) are really good against this new form of the Bug, and prevent nearly all serious cases etc. Probably the vaccines are as good, but I haven’t seen definitive evidence, yet
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    .
    RobD said:

    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.

    Except the PM himself has said he sees nothing that dissuades him from continuing with the plan.
    Contrarian being contrary.
    It would be disappointing if he were otherwise.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,266
    IanB2 said:

    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

    Denied entry?

    Aren't we still under lockdown?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 19,632

    tlg86 said:

    The problem for Northern Ireland is that plenty of the people who live there don't care about the place. So I'm not sure why I should.

    On the contrary, I think they care too much, at least about matters that others find hard to understand.
    Okay, that's probably true too.

    Of course, one of the ironies in all of this is that Sinn Fein and the party's voters cannot complain about Brexit and the border down the Irish Sea.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 7,934
    HYUFD said:

    On NI even if the government did apologise it happened under the Heath administration not this one

    Which is why such apologies are so easy to give and so vacuous.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,266

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    Monday 17th May will happen.

    Monday 21st June won't happen.
    No reason 21 June shouldn't happen.

    We must be incredibly close to having offered a vaccine to everyone by 21 June surely?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
    To be fair the Brummies know it’s fugly, and they are ripping down the facade

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/symphony-hall-frontage-ripped-off-17197344

    How many times can a city tear down and rebuild its centre, until they realise the Germans are right? Just replace everything with an exact facsimile of the city centre in about 1890
    Search google for images, and 90% of them are of the interior, which is a truly magnificent concert hall.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,871

    IanB2 said:

    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

    Denied entry?

    Aren't we still under lockdown?
    Yeah, it's illegal to travel internationally from England for a job interview. Hard to have much sympathy.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    It’s fifty fucking years ago. I do not believe anyone alive is crippled by anguish and grief over this

    There'll be about as many people as there will be people alive crippled by anguish and grief about statues of people who died centuries ago being pulled down.
    10 British people died in Ballymurphy. 10. FIFTY YEARS AGO

    120,000 Brits have died these last 12 months, in a plague which was potentially avoidable.

    Focusing on such a distant and comparatively tiny tragedy is a kind of decadence. Like focusing on ‘racist’ statues rather than, say, racist gang rape
    Or caring that a Council is removing statues?

    When Councils have removed statues and buildings all along.
    And whole cityscapes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 32,735

    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.

    "little experimental vaccines"? I think the "oh dear" is very much in your court you nutter! They are not "experimental". If you disagree, please share with us your knowledge of immunology and pharmaceutical clinical trials? "Cut and paste" from QAnon websites is not admissible.
    TBF, most of them are still only available under emergency authorisation - but most will get full approval in due course.

    But to deny the real world effectiveness and safety of many millions of doses is just contrarian being silly.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.

    "little experimental vaccines"? I think the "oh dear" is very much in your court you nutter! They are not "experimental". If you disagree, please share with us your knowledge of immunology and pharmaceutical clinical trials? "Cut and paste" from QAnon websites is not admissible.
    It’s a waste of your time to even engage with someone who talks about “experimental vaccines”. Don’t bother. It’s like trying to convince a flat-earther.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
    To be fair the Brummies know it’s fugly, and they are ripping down the facade

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/symphony-hall-frontage-ripped-off-17197344

    How many times can a city tear down and rebuild its centre, until they realise the Germans are right? Just replace everything with an exact facsimile of the city centre in about 1890
    So you expect London to tear down the Gherkin etc?
    Or the Shard?

    (only kidding, @Leon :lol: )
    That 1890 cutoff would mean tearing down a lot of London's Imperial architecture, too. BBC, Adastral House, much of Whitehall, the Cenotaph, Waterloo (er, negotiable), etc. And much of the Underground, its Frank Pick logos, stations, etc.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 95,999
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I would like it very much if the limit of no more than 30 guests at a wedding remained in place until after 22 July.
    Is it yours :E ?
    No. :lol:

    My first cousin once removed is getting married for the - checks notes - fourth time. And I'm invited.
    On a RSVP to a wedding invite I replied 'Maybe next time.'

    If this is his fourth marriage then he'll understand.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
    To be fair the Brummies know it’s fugly, and they are ripping down the facade

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/symphony-hall-frontage-ripped-off-17197344

    How many times can a city tear down and rebuild its centre, until they realise the Germans are right? Just replace everything with an exact facsimile of the city centre in about 1890
    Search google for images, and 90% of them are of the interior, which is a truly magnificent concert hall.
    I noticed. It’s quite telling that 90% of hits are the interior. It does look splendid. So just replace the exterior - as is happening

    How could a professional architect produce an exterior as hideous as that? Did he put down his pen with a satisfied sigh?

    The alchemy that produces horrible buildings is fascinating. I guess a lot of people get invested in a design - until it reaches a stage where no one has the guts to say, Wait, stop, look, it’s repulsive

    And for some reason this alchemy is particularly prevalent in Britain, in a way similar to the old Soviet bloc, but dissimilar to the rest of Western Europe. Fascist Arab regimes - theocratic and otherwise - excibit similar dreck
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 30,757
    Yeah the substance of the article is fine.

    They broke the law, and it has now been established that the killings were unlawful.

    I am very happy. Having PARA reg in the TAOR always made our lives more difficult. And reading some of what they were supposed to have done it was unforgivable. It was also a pretty febrile atmosphere and if they weren't fired on then they were before and after. Which doesn't excuse their actions, it just puts them into context.

    But all the rest, the institutional cover up the various links between the groupings, blah blah? It was 50 years ago and Britain was involved in an extraordinary period of civil unrest. I agree with whomever it was who said a line should be drawn. Everyone will be dead pretty soon who was involved and no one will be found who said "go and kill those people".

    If you want to know the gory details about the period there are about a million books on the subject.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 29,957
    I'm afraid this is the logic of the GFA. That guilty men would walk free, and sociopaths would hold office at Stormont, in the cause of peace.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,264

    RobD said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    So a more accurate headline would have been:

    "Covid variant found in India may not delay lifting of England restrictions, minister admits"
    Except that it's also been found in England...
    I think people are ready their own fears into what Johnson said. If a scientist were asked to write something on behalf of SAGE for the PM to deliver, it would be pretty much exactly what Johnson said: "We will be driven by the data and will take whatever action the data suggests; but, Indian variant notwithstanding, currently we are on course with our plans for unlockdown. There is nothing in the current data to cause things to change."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 67,572
    @Contrarian believes everything all of us do here is because of government advice. Well tbh that has very little to do with my choices this pandemic.

    I masked up before it was official policy, avoided eat out to help out when it was pushed due to aerosol transmission, will be guided by my other half (She's not vaxxed yet) on indoor hospitality and not have a mad rush as soon as it is allowed, take Vitamin D when I can remember to boost my immune system (Never recommended) and have pretty regularly flouted lockdown rules with some good friends recently (I'm vaccinated now).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 33,666
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    So he hasn't said anything of the sort then, just someone's interpretation?
    The hints started with the scientists but have now reached ministerial level


    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/13/covid-variant-found-in-india-may-delay-lifting-of-england-restrictions-minister-admits?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
    What’s he supposed to say?

    He said that decisions on unlocking will be driven by data on hospitalisations in the run up to the decision.

    I hope that everyone would agree that is sensible.

    But it’s translated as “May delay” which is true but misleading
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 17,576
    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
    To be fair the Brummies know it’s fugly, and they are ripping down the facade

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/symphony-hall-frontage-ripped-off-17197344

    How many times can a city tear down and rebuild its centre, until they realise the Germans are right? Just replace everything with an exact facsimile of the city centre in about 1890
    Search google for images, and 90% of them are of the interior, which is a truly magnificent concert hall.
    I noticed. It’s quite telling that 90% of hits are the interior. It does look splendid. So just replace the exterior - as is happening

    How could a professional architect produce an exterior as hideous as that? Did he put down his pen with a satisfied sigh?

    The alchemy that produces horrible buildings is fascinating. I guess a lot of people get invested in a design - until it reaches a stage where no one has the guts to say, Wait, stop, look, it’s repulsive

    And for some reason this alchemy is particularly prevalent in Britain, in a way similar to the old Soviet bloc, but dissimilar to the rest of Western Europe. Fascist Arab regimes - theocratic and otherwise - excibit similar dreck
    The main thing I see in that exterior, is a lack of concession or interest in the little ants who wandered around it in the architects drawings.

    People, I think they are called.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,103
    edited May 13
    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    I honestly don't see any way he could have sanely been more bullish on unlocking in what he's said today, given where he's starting from.
    Of course, I'd have liked him to say "you know what, I'm sick of all this. No more rules. Do what you want." But based on the positions he's set out and the interests he's trying to balance, I can't object to what he's said. Bear in mind, he's always been keen to stress the 'at the earliest'; he's simply repeating what he's been saying since February.

    I'm not concerned by rising positive tests. I am slightly concerned by decline in hospitalisations stopping, though too early to worry too much yet. And if hospitalisations stay at about 100 indefinitely, that is not a level which need concern us. I understand the worry that a pause in decline might be a precursor to a rise, but there is no reason to assume one will follow from the other, particularly given ongoing vaccination.

    Anyway, to cheerier matters: architecture: it's always slightly jarring to visit Europe and see cities which were destroyed in the war which have been reconstructed. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen - of, course, it should happen - but it is so far outside of British architectural experience, which would be horrified by such an approach. It's slightly surprising even to realise it can be done.
    On a much smaller scale, a house near where I live - a pleasant but unremarkable late Victorian semi - unfortunately fell down after a clumsy builder failed to prop the walls up adequately when doing a knock through. It's been rebuilt, and extended, to exactly the same outward design - but of course using new bricks, fenestration, etc. It looks absolutely brilliant - presumably as good as it did when it was first built. Probably the most handsome house on the street: better than anything built in the last 120 years, but also fresher than anything built before that. It makes you wonder why we can't build all new houses like that. Again, you just get used to the assumption that it can't be done; but of course it can.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Nigelb said:

    (FPT)

    Leon said:

    In my noble desire to expose myself to the *best* of Birmingham, I have just discovered their Symphony Hall



    How? How could any city outside Saddam Hussein’s Iraq erect such a hideous wart, surrounded by similar warts? Why are British cities so bad at this? How did London, almost uniquely, escape?

    Not great from the outside, but the acoustics are fantastic, and inside the hall itself looks pretty good.
    To be fair the Brummies know it’s fugly, and they are ripping down the facade

    https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/symphony-hall-frontage-ripped-off-17197344

    How many times can a city tear down and rebuild its centre, until they realise the Germans are right? Just replace everything with an exact facsimile of the city centre in about 1890
    So you expect London to tear down the Gherkin etc?
    Or the Shard?

    (only kidding, @Leon :lol: )
    That 1890 cutoff would mean tearing down a lot of London's Imperial architecture, too. BBC, Adastral House, much of Whitehall, the Cenotaph, Waterloo (er, negotiable), etc. And much of the Underground, its Frank Pick logos, stations, etc.
    I explicitly spared London from my diktat. Luckily, much of london escaped the Luftwaffe AND the planners, and the new stuff that was built was often of high quality. I guess the politicians cared more, cause they live here

    For many British cities going back to 1890 - or maybe 1920? - would be a huge improvement
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923
    Selebian said:

    Interesting read on the limitations of current science practice laid bare by Covid (forwarded by a colleague who has been invovled in running some of the Covid trials)
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01246-x

    A common problem we face. It's relatively easy to set up a trial, particularly if you're embedded in a hospital. It's much harder to set up a good trial which involves agreements with other people/institutions and - particularly - data sharing agreements.

    Thanks - very interesting. Much appreciated.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 33,666

    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.

    Hadn’t Labour taught you insulting your audience isn’t helpful in persuading them?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,355
    edited May 13

    The main thing I see in that exterior, is a lack of concession or interest in the little ants who wandered around it in the architects drawings.

    People, I think they are called.

    The symphony hall is part of the conference centre complex, and yes, the internal navigation is horrible
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 33,666
    IanB2 said:

    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

    Did they have evidence they were attending an interview? Or did they just say they were?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 17,576
    Sean_F said:

    I'm afraid this is the logic of the GFA. That guilty men would walk free, and sociopaths would hold office at Stormont, in the cause of peace.

    Exactly. If you didn't want the man who figured out that using an iron bar on peoples kneecaps* was better politically than shooting them, to have a six figure job paid by the tax payer... well, you needed to oppose the GFA.

    *But hey, for a while Northern Ireland led the world on knee reconstruction surgery.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,119

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    Monday 17th May will happen.

    Monday 21st June won't happen.
    Monday 21 June MIGHT happen but on a watered down basis and the government will be working on this over the next few weeks.

    So don't expect all restrictions to go 21 June.

    Also we MAY see the return of local lockdowns. Even though we know they don't work.

    The best approach to counter the risk is to keep on with the vaccination programme at full speed and this is what is happening.



  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923
    edited May 13
    Charles said:

    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.

    Hadn’t Labour taught you insulting your audience isn’t helpful in persuading them?
    ..
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,264
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

    Did they have evidence they were attending an interview? Or did they just say they were?
    And what is "Europeans"? Two, fifty, hundreds? I am sure that on a daily basis in most countries you have at least one border officer being an arsehole.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,357
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

    Denied entry?

    Aren't we still under lockdown?
    Yeah, it's illegal to travel internationally from England for a job interview. Hard to have much sympathy.
    Either they are allowed to come here for their interviews or they aren’t.

    If they are allowed, the fault is with the government, and if we are locking them up they deserve every sympathy, whether or not we are allowed to travel elsewhere for the same reason.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

    Did they have evidence they were attending an interview? Or did they just say they were?
    Be difficult to find the interview venue, get past security on the desk, etc., if they didn't have the bumf whether paper or on their mobeys.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 23,883
    Great header, Cyclefree. I like the refusal to go along with the "nothing matters except votes and flags and fitted kitchens" vibe that seems to be in the box seat these days.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 4,103
    Cookie said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    I honestly don't see any way he could have sanely been more bullish on unlocking in what he's said today, given where he's starting from.
    Of course, I'd have liked him to say "you know what, I'm sick of all this. No more rules. Do what you want." But based on the positions he's set out and the interests he's trying to balance, I can't object to what he's said. Bear in mind, he's always been keen to stress the 'at the earliest'; he's simply repeating what he's been saying since February.

    I'm not concerned by rising positive tests. I am slightly concerned by decline in hospitalisations stopping, though too early to worry too much yet. And if hospitalisations stay at about 100 indefinitely, that is not a level which need concern us. I understand the worry that a pause in decline might be a precursor to a rise, but there is no reason to assume one will follow from the other, particularly given ongoing vaccination.

    Anyway, to cheerier matters: architecture: it's always slightly jarring to visit Europe and see cities which were destroyed in the war which have been reconstructed. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen - of, course, it should happen - but it is so far outside of British architectural experience, which would be horrified by such an approach. It's slightly surprising even to realise it can be done.
    On a much smaller scale, a house near where I live - a pleasant but unremarkable late Victorian semi - unfortunately fell down after a clumsy builder failed to prop the walls up adequately when doing a knock through. It's been rebuilt, and extended, to exactly the same outward design - but of course using new bricks, fenestration, etc. It looks absolutely brilliant - presumably as good as it did when it was first built. Probably the most handsome house on the street: better than anything built in the last 120 years, but also fresher than anything built before that. It makes you wonder why we can't build all new houses like that. Again, you just get used to the assumption that it can't be done; but of course it can.
    Further to the above, there was a story from the 80s about a delegation of German burghers visiting Derby. On touring the town with bigwigs from the council, they expressed horror and sadness: what a terrible thing the war was; there was much destruction in Germany too; we are so sorry that these terrible events ever happened. The Derby contingent cheerfully explained that actually Derby City Centre had got off pretty lightly in the war and had actually remained a pretty handsome town, and the mess of concrete they saw in front of them was the entirely self-inflicted result of 1960s planning and architecture.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,219
    Nigelb said:

    Another good thread, Cyclefree.

    Why then did it take a further 11 years for the truth to come out about Ballymurphy?...
    They did what governments do with inconvenient truths - keep them hidden for as long as possible in the hope that time will render them unjusticiable.

    Whole point & purpose of 50 year rule & such like.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    Cookie said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    I honestly don't see any way he could have sanely been more bullish on unlocking in what he's said today, given where he's starting from.
    Of course, I'd have liked him to say "you know what, I'm sick of all this. No more rules. Do what you want." But based on the positions he's set out and the interests he's trying to balance, I can't object to what he's said. Bear in mind, he's always been keen to stress the 'at the earliest'; he's simply repeating what he's been saying since February.

    I'm not concerned by rising positive tests. I am slightly concerned by decline in hospitalisations stopping, though too early to worry too much yet. And if hospitalisations stay at about 100 indefinitely, that is not a level which need concern us. I understand the worry that a pause in decline might be a precursor to a rise, but there is no reason to assume one will follow from the other, particularly given ongoing vaccination.

    Anyway, to cheerier matters: architecture: it's always slightly jarring to visit Europe and see cities which were destroyed in the war which have been reconstructed. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen - of, course, it should happen - but it is so far outside of British architectural experience, which would be horrified by such an approach. It's slightly surprising even to realise it can be done.
    On a much smaller scale, a house near where I live - a pleasant but unremarkable late Victorian semi - unfortunately fell down after a clumsy builder failed to prop the walls up adequately when doing a knock through. It's been rebuilt, and extended, to exactly the same outward design - but of course using new bricks, fenestration, etc. It looks absolutely brilliant - presumably as good as it did when it was first built. Probably the most handsome house on the street: better than anything built in the last 120 years, but also fresher than anything built before that. It makes you wonder why we can't build all new houses like that. Again, you just get used to the assumption that it can't be done; but of course it can.
    On the continent the whining architects are over-ruled - see Frankfurt. That was a left-right political battle, as well. The Left, as here, wanted lots of new crap. The right won the argument and the old town was restored

    I guess if you’re an architect it’s embarrassing to admit you can’t do better than your Victorian or Georgian forebears, but the fact is, generally you can’t, as we have all learned, painfully. So shut up and copy the past

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 29,957
    TOPPING said:

    Yeah the substance of the article is fine.

    They broke the law, and it has now been established that the killings were unlawful.

    I am very happy. Having PARA reg in the TAOR always made our lives more difficult. And reading some of what they were supposed to have done it was unforgivable. It was also a pretty febrile atmosphere and if they weren't fired on then they were before and after. Which doesn't excuse their actions, it just puts them into context.

    But all the rest, the institutional cover up the various links between the groupings, blah blah? It was 50 years ago and Britain was involved in an extraordinary period of civil unrest. I agree with whomever it was who said a line should be drawn. Everyone will be dead pretty soon who was involved and no one will be found who said "go and kill those people".

    If you want to know the gory details about the period there are about a million books on the subject.

    Sure. The period 1971 - 1976 saw 1,700 killed and c.20,000 injured. Out of a population of 1.4m, that's a very vicious and chaotic civil war.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Charles said:

    Oh dear

    All you little puppies obediently took your little experimental vaccines thinking you would be free.

    June 21! freedom!

    Nope.

    You stupid, stupid boobies.

    Hadn’t Labour taught you insulting your audience isn’t helpful in persuading them?
    Read my posts over the past year and you will see that I have tried every other way.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,310

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    Monday 17th May will happen.

    Monday 21st June won't happen.
    They'll both happen on time. By the time we get to June 21st there will be just a handful of cases per day among the unvaccinated, there's no way we can delay unlockdown because of people who have refused the vaccine. The government target of one dose per person by July 31st is laughable, we have the supply to get every single person done once by the end of this month but it just leaves us at the mercy of supply chains for second doses. June 21st is a reasonably good target for 95% of 53m adults having had their first dose and end of July for 95% of 53m adults having had both doses.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 10,353
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    I honestly don't see any way he could have sanely been more bullish on unlocking in what he's said today, given where he's starting from.
    Of course, I'd have liked him to say "you know what, I'm sick of all this. No more rules. Do what you want." But based on the positions he's set out and the interests he's trying to balance, I can't object to what he's said. Bear in mind, he's always been keen to stress the 'at the earliest'; he's simply repeating what he's been saying since February.

    I'm not concerned by rising positive tests. I am slightly concerned by decline in hospitalisations stopping, though too early to worry too much yet. And if hospitalisations stay at about 100 indefinitely, that is not a level which need concern us. I understand the worry that a pause in decline might be a precursor to a rise, but there is no reason to assume one will follow from the other, particularly given ongoing vaccination.

    Anyway, to cheerier matters: architecture: it's always slightly jarring to visit Europe and see cities which were destroyed in the war which have been reconstructed. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen - of, course, it should happen - but it is so far outside of British architectural experience, which would be horrified by such an approach. It's slightly surprising even to realise it can be done.
    On a much smaller scale, a house near where I live - a pleasant but unremarkable late Victorian semi - unfortunately fell down after a clumsy builder failed to prop the walls up adequately when doing a knock through. It's been rebuilt, and extended, to exactly the same outward design - but of course using new bricks, fenestration, etc. It looks absolutely brilliant - presumably as good as it did when it was first built. Probably the most handsome house on the street: better than anything built in the last 120 years, but also fresher than anything built before that. It makes you wonder why we can't build all new houses like that. Again, you just get used to the assumption that it can't be done; but of course it can.
    Further to the above, there was a story from the 80s about a delegation of German burghers visiting Derby. On touring the town with bigwigs from the council, they expressed horror and sadness: what a terrible thing the war was; there was much destruction in Germany too; we are so sorry that these terrible events ever happened. The Derby contingent cheerfully explained that actually Derby City Centre had got off pretty lightly in the war and had actually remained a pretty handsome town, and the mess of concrete they saw in front of them was the entirely self-inflicted result of 1960s planning and architecture.
    That’s funny - and inexpressibly sad
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 17,576
    Cookie said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    I honestly don't see any way he could have sanely been more bullish on unlocking in what he's said today, given where he's starting from.
    Of course, I'd have liked him to say "you know what, I'm sick of all this. No more rules. Do what you want." But based on the positions he's set out and the interests he's trying to balance, I can't object to what he's said. Bear in mind, he's always been keen to stress the 'at the earliest'; he's simply repeating what he's been saying since February.

    I'm not concerned by rising positive tests. I am slightly concerned by decline in hospitalisations stopping, though too early to worry too much yet. And if hospitalisations stay at about 100 indefinitely, that is not a level which need concern us. I understand the worry that a pause in decline might be a precursor to a rise, but there is no reason to assume one will follow from the other, particularly given ongoing vaccination.

    Anyway, to cheerier matters: architecture: it's always slightly jarring to visit Europe and see cities which were destroyed in the war which have been reconstructed. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen - of, course, it should happen - but it is so far outside of British architectural experience, which would be horrified by such an approach. It's slightly surprising even to realise it can be done.
    On a much smaller scale, a house near where I live - a pleasant but unremarkable late Victorian semi - unfortunately fell down after a clumsy builder failed to prop the walls up adequately when doing a knock through. It's been rebuilt, and extended, to exactly the same outward design - but of course using new bricks, fenestration, etc. It looks absolutely brilliant - presumably as good as it did when it was first built. Probably the most handsome house on the street: better than anything built in the last 120 years, but also fresher than anything built before that. It makes you wonder why we can't build all new houses like that. Again, you just get used to the assumption that it can't be done; but of course it can.
    You can get copies of nearly all the decorative pieces (platers and concrete) used in Edwardian/Victorian houses - the moulds exist in many cases.

    Avoiding that shitty bright red brick the executive home builders love is easy as well. For a penny or 2 a brick.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 6,499
    edited May 13
    No doubt any public inquiry will reflect on the treatment of care home residents?

    See below.

    “Shame on every government official and care home provider that decided to ignore residents’ human rights and just batten[ed] down the hatches".

    www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/19297749.actress-devastated-mothers-death/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 13,923
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    I honestly don't see any way he could have sanely been more bullish on unlocking in what he's said today, given where he's starting from.
    Of course, I'd have liked him to say "you know what, I'm sick of all this. No more rules. Do what you want." But based on the positions he's set out and the interests he's trying to balance, I can't object to what he's said. Bear in mind, he's always been keen to stress the 'at the earliest'; he's simply repeating what he's been saying since February.

    I'm not concerned by rising positive tests. I am slightly concerned by decline in hospitalisations stopping, though too early to worry too much yet. And if hospitalisations stay at about 100 indefinitely, that is not a level which need concern us. I understand the worry that a pause in decline might be a precursor to a rise, but there is no reason to assume one will follow from the other, particularly given ongoing vaccination.

    Anyway, to cheerier matters: architecture: it's always slightly jarring to visit Europe and see cities which were destroyed in the war which have been reconstructed. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen - of, course, it should happen - but it is so far outside of British architectural experience, which would be horrified by such an approach. It's slightly surprising even to realise it can be done.
    On a much smaller scale, a house near where I live - a pleasant but unremarkable late Victorian semi - unfortunately fell down after a clumsy builder failed to prop the walls up adequately when doing a knock through. It's been rebuilt, and extended, to exactly the same outward design - but of course using new bricks, fenestration, etc. It looks absolutely brilliant - presumably as good as it did when it was first built. Probably the most handsome house on the street: better than anything built in the last 120 years, but also fresher than anything built before that. It makes you wonder why we can't build all new houses like that. Again, you just get used to the assumption that it can't be done; but of course it can.
    On the continent the whining architects are over-ruled - see Frankfurt. That was a left-right political battle, as well. The Left, as here, wanted lots of new crap. The right won the argument and the old town was restored

    I guess if you’re an architect it’s embarrassing to admit you can’t do better than your Victorian or Georgian forebears, but the fact is, generally you can’t, as we have all learned, painfully. So shut up and copy the past

    Or, more correctly, imptove on it - heating, insulation, etc. Not much need for coal cellars, not so ewasy to get horsehair for sound insulation ...

    One issue is the use of standard elements. One niggle I had with Poundbury is that the C18 buildings didn't look right - I think because of standard modules for the windows etc. But perhaps I should accept that it is really C21 derived from C18 ...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 35,357
    edited May 13
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Maffew said:

    Leon said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    I am resigned to restrictions for the foreseeable future = years. There will always be a ‘variant of concern’. True unlockdown will forever recede as we approach, much like the British summer
    I am utterly sick of this. I can't deal with restrictions any more and this has already ruined my day. That being said, what Boris Johnson actually said (as reported in the Guardian live blog) was:

    "f we have to do other things, then of course the public would want us to rule nothing out. We have always been clear we would be led by the data. At the moment, I can see nothing that dissuades me from thinking we will be able to go ahead on Monday and indeed on 21 June, everywhere, but there may be things we have to do locally and we will not hesitate to do them if that is the advice we get."
    I honestly don't see any way he could have sanely been more bullish on unlocking in what he's said today, given where he's starting from.
    Of course, I'd have liked him to say "you know what, I'm sick of all this. No more rules. Do what you want." But based on the positions he's set out and the interests he's trying to balance, I can't object to what he's said. Bear in mind, he's always been keen to stress the 'at the earliest'; he's simply repeating what he's been saying since February.

    I'm not concerned by rising positive tests. I am slightly concerned by decline in hospitalisations stopping, though too early to worry too much yet. And if hospitalisations stay at about 100 indefinitely, that is not a level which need concern us. I understand the worry that a pause in decline might be a precursor to a rise, but there is no reason to assume one will follow from the other, particularly given ongoing vaccination.

    Anyway, to cheerier matters: architecture: it's always slightly jarring to visit Europe and see cities which were destroyed in the war which have been reconstructed. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen - of, course, it should happen - but it is so far outside of British architectural experience, which would be horrified by such an approach. It's slightly surprising even to realise it can be done.
    On a much smaller scale, a house near where I live - a pleasant but unremarkable late Victorian semi - unfortunately fell down after a clumsy builder failed to prop the walls up adequately when doing a knock through. It's been rebuilt, and extended, to exactly the same outward design - but of course using new bricks, fenestration, etc. It looks absolutely brilliant - presumably as good as it did when it was first built. Probably the most handsome house on the street: better than anything built in the last 120 years, but also fresher than anything built before that. It makes you wonder why we can't build all new houses like that. Again, you just get used to the assumption that it can't be done; but of course it can.
    Further to the above, there was a story from the 80s about a delegation of German burghers visiting Derby. On touring the town with bigwigs from the council, they expressed horror and sadness: what a terrible thing the war was; there was much destruction in Germany too; we are so sorry that these terrible events ever happened. The Derby contingent cheerfully explained that actually Derby City Centre had got off pretty lightly in the war and had actually remained a pretty handsome town, and the mess of concrete they saw in front of them was the entirely self-inflicted result of 1960s planning and architecture.
    Reminds me of when I took a visiting group from the German Post Office to lunch down Old Street in the 1990s, and they were puzzled about and asking what had happened to the then ruined church on the north side of the road (now brilliantly refurbished as an outpost for the LSO). When they understood, they were even more amazed that in relatively central London it had been left like that for more than fifty years.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 60,266
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Now Bozza is HINTING

    H I N T I N G that the roadmap might be put back.

    Remember it's just a HINT.

    Like COULD, MIGHT, HINT. Yes a hint. Just a HINT.

    Monday 17th May will happen.

    Monday 21st June won't happen.
    They'll both happen on time. By the time we get to June 21st there will be just a handful of cases per day among the unvaccinated, there's no way we can delay unlockdown because of people who have refused the vaccine. The government target of one dose per person by July 31st is laughable, we have the supply to get every single person done once by the end of this month but it just leaves us at the mercy of supply chains for second doses. June 21st is a reasonably good target for 95% of 53m adults having had their first dose and end of July for 95% of 53m adults having had both doses.
    If you take the few towns and cities were cases are still spreading in any meaningful numbers, then how much vaccine would it take to offer first doses to everyone remaining before the end of this month?

    If cases are 20x more prevalent in Bolton than Bath it makes more sense to be vaccinating a 20 year old in Bolton than a 38 year old in Bath.

    We're probably already at herd immunity levels nationwide, but crush the virus with surge vaccination past where its still circulating.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 33,666
    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

    Did they have evidence they were attending an interview? Or did they just say they were?
    And what is "Europeans"? Two, fifty, hundreds? I am sure that on a daily basis in most countries you have at least one border officer being an arsehole.
    I arrived at CBP in Toronto at one point at 9:23pm with 12 colleagues. Plane was on the other side of CBP waiting for us.

    CBP due to close at 9:30pm

    Closed early “!because they couldn’t process us all in time”. Made us spend the night in Toronto airport.

    Still not forgiven them
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,012

    IanB2 said:

    EU citizens are being sent to immigration removal centres and held in airport detention rooms as the UK government’s “hostile environment” policy falls on them after Brexit, according to campaigners and travellers interviewed by the Guardian.

    Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.

    Denied entry?

    Aren't we still under lockdown?
    There are lots of exceptions - travel for work is one of them.
This discussion has been closed.