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Why the Tories have LESS than a 90% chance of winning the Chesham and Amersham by-election – politic

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  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,578

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Location & architect change likely upped the price tag, but price tag was probably gonna be stratospheric regardless.
    Funny thing was there was a superb Enlightenment Greek Revival building lying empty. But oh no, having it on the hill was too much of a nationalist shibboleth and no the SNP wouldn't be listened to when they wanted to put it there.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41097272
  • FossFoss Posts: 437
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Location & architect change likely upped the price tag, but price tag was probably gonna be stratospheric regardless.
    Funny thing was there was a superb Enlightenment Greek Revival building lying empty. But oh no, having it on the hill was too much of a nationalist shibboleth and no the SNP wouldn't be listened to when they wanted to put it there.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41097272
    That’s a good looking building. Westminster were fools to turn it down.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    Andy_JS said:

    Centre-left vote in Europe

    UK
    Lowest since 1935

    Austria
    Lowest since 1911

    Germany
    Lowest since 1932

    France
    Lowest ever

    Italy
    Lowest ever

    N'lands
    Lowest ever

    Sweden
    Lowest since 1908

    Finland
    2nd lowest

    Spain
    3rd lowest since democracy

    Maybe it's not Brexit or Starmer?
    5:15 PM · May 10, 2021·Twitter Web App

    What this boils down to, in my opinion, is the impatience and intolerance of left-wing voters. They're no longer prepared to compromise on anything, so they're fragmenting into all sorts of different minor parties that promise unrealistic outcomes in a short time frame. They want everything yesterday. They're not interested in the "long slog" of ordinary politics. The established centre-left parties are too slow and non-radical for their liking.
    It's not "the Left" - it's the end of a mass unionised working-class labour force forming the bedrock of established left-wing parties throughout the West. The nature of both work and politics has changed.

    Now, "Left" means radical action on climate change and social issues, and individual identity being more important than national identity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    edited May 10

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,578
    Foss said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Location & architect change likely upped the price tag, but price tag was probably gonna be stratospheric regardless.
    Funny thing was there was a superb Enlightenment Greek Revival building lying empty. But oh no, having it on the hill was too much of a nationalist shibboleth and no the SNP wouldn't be listened to when they wanted to put it there.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41097272
    That’s a good looking building. Westminster were fools to turn it down.
    Still not found a use.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,454

    tlg86 said:

    On the German Greens, I don't follow German politics closely, but I think the Left here shouldn't get excited about it spreading here.

    Arguably "the Left here" should be worried in case the German success (if it happens) lends credibility to the UK Green Party as a repository for voters disillusioned, or more likely baffled, by Labour.
    It's possible, but if people do follow German politics closely enough to be influenced by it (a big if for most), they'll find that the Greens there are boringly centrist apart from a couple of keynote issues like nuclear power (which the CDU have been phasing out anyway). I can imagine people who would really like them (moderate policies with a layer of environmental concern), and I know people who really like the UK Greens (Corbynism+hippies) but it's hard to imagine anyone liking both.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,320
    justin124 said:

    Batley & Spen was Tory-held 1983 - 1997 by Elizabeth Peacock, and has,therefore, not been such a consistently Labour seat. Nevertheless I find it difficult to see how Starmer could survive its loss. Unlike Hartlepool the timing is not so much in his hands , though he may be able to defer it to early Autumn - ie September. By that time the vaccine 'bounce' may well have dissipated or been overtaken by other events.

    Running scared by the sounds of it then
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,737
    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    Charles said:

    Alistair said:

    I see "Cancel Culture" now includes being caught for doping your race horses now.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/10/bob-baffert-medina-spirit-kentucky-derby-horse-racing-cancel-culture-disqualification

    Wither the fearless free speech warriors who will defend this noble horse doper?

    I’m more concerned about his defence that a groom urinated on the horse’s food…
    Omg, I missed this on first read

    Baffert has had at least 30 positive doping tests for his horses, but insisted to Fox that he runs a clean operation.

    How is he still operating?
    I know… are they all his own horses or does he train for other owners…
    No, they aren't "his" but he does seem to have incredible bad luck such as the pain relief the groom was wearing which rubbed onto a horse and caused it to fail a post-race test.

    https://www.racingpost.com/news/international/kentucky-derby-winner-medina-spirit-tests-positive-for-banned-raceday-substance/488912

    The horse has NOT been disqualified at this time - the Kentucky racing authorities are waiting the results of further tests.
    What are the odds on being so unlucky so frequently and all on champion horses?
    In a training barn with a history of taking low price yearlings and turning them into winners at Triple Crown races. That said, drug tests on horses are incredibly sensitive and do turn up false positives. When my daughter is competing, even though she is an amateur (but because it is an Olympic sport governed by the FEI), we have to be very careful for some 3 months or so around the barn and with feed supplements.
    Perhaps your daughter might consider switching to a somewhat more reputable sport? Ratting?

    Just kidding in her case, and ditto for your horsey friends.

    BTW, always loved the Monty Python bit "Upper-Class Twit of the Year" which had something like:

    "There goes Smith Smythe-Smith! His father was in the Cabinet, and his mother won the Derby!"
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited May 10
    justin124 said:

    Batley & Spen was Tory-held 1983 - 1997 by Elizabeth Peacock, and has,therefore, not been such a consistently Labour seat. Nevertheless I find it difficult to see how Starmer could survive its loss. Unlike Hartlepool the timing is not so much in his hands , though he may be able to defer it to early Autumn - ie September. By that time the vaccine 'bounce' may well have dissipated or been overtaken by other events.

    Not so sure. I think the Queen’s Speech sets the narrative into the summer, and then in Sep/Oct it’s the run in to a spending review. Noting the recent economic forecasts, that spending review will actually be good news vs. what was in the Budget. The story will be “sweeties for all”.

    Boris must have done something awesome for someone in a previous life.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Pulpstar said:

    Casual sex to be allowed from the 17th.

    Only in homes and hotels. I think dogging has to wait.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,501
    Leon said:

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)

    It wasn't in Newcastle though
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    I think the German Greens are well to the Left of where I'd be comfortable with but I think their success on the basis that the 'realist' wing now dominates, and they've shown that in coalition for a number of years:

    "The Green party in Germany is not the socialist project of Extinction Rebellion. In many ways, it is further to the right than the British Conservatives. In November, the party launched a ‘zero tolerance’ plan to tackle Muslim extremism, calling for a boost to police powers and a ban on Salafi organisations. Meanwhile, the Greens have successfully run Baden-Württemberg, Germany’s third largest state, since 2011, where self-confessed ‘green conservative’ Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister-President, has fought against tax increases and in favour of pro-market policies. The proud diesel-driving Catholic also takes a tough line on migrant gangs, arguing that ‘the most dangerous thing that human evolution has produced is hordes of young men’. Kretschmann was re-elected earlier this year on an increased majority.

    The appeal of the German Greens lies in their centrism. Both Baerbock and Habeck have relentlessly stressed the party’s status as a Bündnispartei — a coalition party willing to work with anyone in order to get things done. Its ecological politics are broad and popular: promoting renewables, protecting the environment and promising new green jobs. But it opposes Nord Stream 2, Merkel’s dream of an oil pipeline flowing from Russia that many see as the cause of her ambivalence towards Putin. Berlin’s western allies would be only too happy to see the Kremlin’s crude tentacles cut back."


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-about-to-go-green
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,388

    Andy_JS said:

    Centre-left vote in Europe

    UK
    Lowest since 1935

    Austria
    Lowest since 1911

    Germany
    Lowest since 1932

    France
    Lowest ever

    Italy
    Lowest ever

    N'lands
    Lowest ever

    Sweden
    Lowest since 1908

    Finland
    2nd lowest

    Spain
    3rd lowest since democracy

    Maybe it's not Brexit or Starmer?
    5:15 PM · May 10, 2021·Twitter Web App

    What this boils down to, in my opinion, is the impatience and intolerance of left-wing voters. They're no longer prepared to compromise on anything, so they're fragmenting into all sorts of different minor parties that promise unrealistic outcomes in a short time frame. They want everything yesterday. They're not interested in the "long slog" of ordinary politics. The established centre-left parties are too slow and non-radical for their liking.
    It's not "the Left" - it's the end of a mass unionised working-class labour force forming the bedrock of established left-wing parties throughout the West. The nature of both work and politics has changed.

    Now, "Left" means radical action on climate change and social issues, and individual identity being more important than national identity.
    Parties that want to win elections have to do two things, both essential: they have to present a message that people will vote for, not should vote for or used to vote for. And they have to present as being compasses rather than weather vanes leaders not followers. Left and right all that stuff means nothing in this context. There is stuff and presentations that people will vote for and things they won't. Labels don't really help.

    BTW to say something positive about SKS, just recently the USA escaped from a leader who plainly supported violence in his cause and the overthrow of the democratic process if it would help him. He could even have won if a few million people had switched. This is scary. While Jezza was in charge there was only one party in UK who could win and be trusted with having the state in its hands. With SKS in charge there are now two. Like America we always need a spare party just in case.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,348
    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    It wasn't in Newcastle. It was in Gateshead. And was iconic. I have a coffee mug with a picture of it on the side.

    So what replaced it? A branch of Tesco.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    To unite the threads of architecture and Germany, see this

    The Germans have simply abandoned the attempt to make attractive modernist town centres, realising we are somehow incapable. Instead they are now rebuilding entire medieval town centres, brick for brick, from scratch - the ones the RAF flattened. Frankfurt is an example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom-Römer_Project


    We should do exactly the same in the UK. I can think of a dozen cities/disrricts, off the bat, which would benefit enormously from such a scheme. Coventry, Exeter, Northampton, maybe Brum, Swansea, Plymouth, Derby, Clydebank, do it.

    Architects will shriek and howl and moan about "pastiche" but given that they are congenitally unable to design anything better they can fuck off
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,507

    I think the German Greens are well to the Left of where I'd be comfortable with but I think their success on the basis that the 'realist' wing now dominates, and they've shown that in coalition for a number of years:

    "The Green party in Germany is not the socialist project of Extinction Rebellion. In many ways, it is further to the right than the British Conservatives. In November, the party launched a ‘zero tolerance’ plan to tackle Muslim extremism, calling for a boost to police powers and a ban on Salafi organisations. Meanwhile, the Greens have successfully run Baden-Württemberg, Germany’s third largest state, since 2011, where self-confessed ‘green conservative’ Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister-President, has fought against tax increases and in favour of pro-market policies. The proud diesel-driving Catholic also takes a tough line on migrant gangs, arguing that ‘the most dangerous thing that human evolution has produced is hordes of young men’. Kretschmann was re-elected earlier this year on an increased majority.

    The appeal of the German Greens lies in their centrism. Both Baerbock and Habeck have relentlessly stressed the party’s status as a Bündnispartei — a coalition party willing to work with anyone in order to get things done. Its ecological politics are broad and popular: promoting renewables, protecting the environment and promising new green jobs. But it opposes Nord Stream 2, Merkel’s dream of an oil pipeline flowing from Russia that many see as the cause of her ambivalence towards Putin. Berlin’s western allies would be only too happy to see the Kremlin’s crude tentacles cut back."


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-about-to-go-green

    Its worth remembering that the German Greens green ambitions are more moderate than Boris's Conservatives ones are.

    From what I've read the German Greens would be my second choice party as it stands (FDP first), but I don't think their voting system works via ranked voting.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,454

    Andy_JS said:

    Centre-left vote in Europe

    UK
    Lowest since 1935

    Austria
    Lowest since 1911

    Germany
    Lowest since 1932

    France
    Lowest ever

    Italy
    Lowest ever

    N'lands
    Lowest ever

    Sweden
    Lowest since 1908

    Finland
    2nd lowest

    Spain
    3rd lowest since democracy

    Maybe it's not Brexit or Starmer?
    5:15 PM · May 10, 2021·Twitter Web App

    What this boils down to, in my opinion, is the impatience and intolerance of left-wing voters. They're no longer prepared to compromise on anything, so they're fragmenting into all sorts of different minor parties that promise unrealistic outcomes in a short time frame. They want everything yesterday. They're not interested in the "long slog" of ordinary politics. The established centre-left parties are too slow and non-radical for their liking.
    It's not "the Left" - it's the end of a mass unionised working-class labour force forming the bedrock of established left-wing parties throughout the West. The nature of both work and politics has changed.

    Now, "Left" means radical action on climate change and social issues, and individual identity being more important than national identity.
    BigG's list is a bit over-simplified. The Danish social democrats are completely dominant at the moment, and both Swedish and Norwegian parties are doing OK. But more to the point is that under PR it's natural to split so you can express your views more precisely. The Swedes aren't losing votes to their right but to moderate leftish alternatives who are allied to them. With PR, why not split?

    But I agree that reliance on class voting is building on sand.
  • FossFoss Posts: 437
    Carnyx said:

    Foss said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Location & architect change likely upped the price tag, but price tag was probably gonna be stratospheric regardless.
    Funny thing was there was a superb Enlightenment Greek Revival building lying empty. But oh no, having it on the hill was too much of a nationalist shibboleth and no the SNP wouldn't be listened to when they wanted to put it there.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41097272
    That’s a good looking building. Westminster were fools to turn it down.
    Still not found a use.
    It survives tho'. Which means it could still have a good future.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,578
    Leon said:

    To unite the threads of architecture and Germany, see this

    The Germans have simply abandoned the attempt to make attractive modernist town centres, realising we are somehow incapable. Instead they are now rebuilding entire medieval town centres, brick for brick, from scratch - the ones the RAF flattened. Frankfurt is an example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom-Römer_Project


    We should do exactly the same in the UK. I can think of a dozen cities/disrricts, off the bat, which would benefit enormously from such a scheme. Coventry, Exeter, Northampton, maybe Brum, Swansea, Plymouth, Derby, Clydebank, do it.

    Architects will shriek and howl and moan about "pastiche" but given that they are congenitally unable to design anything better they can fuck off

    Some of Bath too. It got the Baedeker treatment. And Portsmouth, especially the area to the south and east of the nasval dockyard. Hell, even Plymouth naval base could do with the restoration of the residential terrace - the south part is in part a mess from hasty wastime/postwar expansion over blitzed areas.

    Haven't the Germans been doing it for some time? Or am I thinking of the Poles and Warsaw? But it's a nice approach.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    Pulpstar said:

    Casual sex to be allowed from the 17th.

    As opposed to carefully arranged, preplanned sex with a member of your own family.
    Ugh
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    It wasn't in Newcastle. It was in Gateshead. And was iconic. I have a coffee mug with a picture of it on the side.

    So what replaced it? A branch of Tesco.
    Yeah, I liked it. But I didn't have to live with it looming over me every day in Gateshead/Newky. It was quite, er, "imposing"
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,507

    Pulpstar said:

    Casual sex to be allowed from the 17th.

    As opposed to carefully arranged, preplanned sex with a member of your own family.
    A couple from Alabama get married and on the morning of the big day the father of the groom said if he's got any questions then to call home.

    That night as the young couple are getting ready for bed the bride says to her husband "this is my first time".

    The groom gets spooked who calls his dad for his advice. "Come home son," is the response, "if she ain't good enough for her family, she ain't good enough for ours."
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 737
    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,737
    edited May 10
    Pulpstar said:

    Casual sex to be allowed from the 17th.

    Can you make an appointment? AND is it one jab or two?

    EDIT - Will this cut into Leon's flint dildo trade (so to speak) which I would guess has been one of the big success stories of the pandemic?

    Like Amazon and GrubHub?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,361
    Pulpstar said:

    Casual sex to be allowed from the 17th.

    Rejoice!!! :D
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Carnyx said:

    Foss said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Location & architect change likely upped the price tag, but price tag was probably gonna be stratospheric regardless.
    Funny thing was there was a superb Enlightenment Greek Revival building lying empty. But oh no, having it on the hill was too much of a nationalist shibboleth and no the SNP wouldn't be listened to when they wanted to put it there.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41097272
    That’s a good looking building. Westminster were fools to turn it down.
    Still not found a use.
    I am not sure personally that Nicola's ego would have fitted inside it.

    It is surely quite astonishing that a planning department can impose such restrictions on the use of a building that it remains empty for more than 50 years. It is a beautiful building on a great site but what a waste.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,899

    Pulpstar said:

    Casual sex to be allowed from the 17th.

    As opposed to carefully arranged, preplanned sex with a member of your own family.
    Ugh
    Er, doesn't your spouse count as 'a member of your own family'?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Had huge impact on the cost. He died before he drew up the final plans. He;d delivered the vision (so we were still goig to end up with an awful looking building) but he hadn't finished the "turning the vision into an actual working building" when he popped his clogs.

    given he was a massive award winning architect the people who came along to finish the job were too scared to make the necessary changes. As a result everyone struggled to build a basically impossible design thus the massive cost overrun and various ergonomic problems of actually using it as a parliament.

    He certainly had a 'distinct' style - that's a market in Barcelona


  • eekeek Posts: 15,853
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    It wasn't in Newcastle. It was in Gateshead. And was iconic. I have a coffee mug with a picture of it on the side.

    So what replaced it? A branch of Tesco.
    Yeah, I liked it. But I didn't have to live with it looming over me every day in Gateshead/Newky. It was quite, er, "imposing"
    It was also impractical - I remember that some floors had ceilings that were below minimum legal heights (we used to park there when heading to Newcastle, we now park by Gateshead Stadium metro or Grangertown car park)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Plenty of colonial buildings in Scotland.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    Leon said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    Bit of a dump from the outside, but inside I think it looks quite nice.
    Same as the British Library (the "new" one on Euston Road). Lovely lush interiors, but the exterior? Pff. A great public building like THE BRITISH LIBRARY should resonate with a welcoming grandeur, a proper sonority. A
    confident embrace of the street

    It looks like a mildly fortified Tesco in Croydon with extra arty bits. It is not in Holyrood's league for actual howling ugliness, but it is so disappointing. So timid and pathetic.

    As I said earlier the Senedd in Cardiff shows we can still design lovely AND impressive public buildings, but too often we get them wrong. A cultural decay
    Quite a few people working near the top of the British Library find will its name offensive.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 737
    Leon said:

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
    The Scots that were involved with the British Empire, slavers, tobacco barons, etc, would have identified as British. Their successors are the likes of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown. Not Scots.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,737
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    To unite the threads of architecture and Germany, see this

    The Germans have simply abandoned the attempt to make attractive modernist town centres, realising we are somehow incapable. Instead they are now rebuilding entire medieval town centres, brick for brick, from scratch - the ones the RAF flattened. Frankfurt is an example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom-Römer_Project


    We should do exactly the same in the UK. I can think of a dozen cities/disrricts, off the bat, which would benefit enormously from such a scheme. Coventry, Exeter, Northampton, maybe Brum, Swansea, Plymouth, Derby, Clydebank, do it.

    Architects will shriek and howl and moan about "pastiche" but given that they are congenitally unable to design anything better they can fuck off

    Some of Bath too. It got the Baedeker treatment. And Portsmouth, especially the area to the south and east of the nasval dockyard. Hell, even Plymouth naval base could do with the restoration of the residential terrace - the south part is in part a mess from hasty wastime/postwar expansion over blitzed areas.

    Haven't the Germans been doing it for some time? Or am I thinking of the Poles and Warsaw? But it's a nice approach.
    Germans have been doing it a long time, in the West.

    In contrast to the East. Remember Kurt Vonnegut writing, IIRC in preface to "Slaugherhouse Five" that post-war Dresden had been rebuilt to look like Toledo, Ohio or something like that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972

    I think the German Greens are well to the Left of where I'd be comfortable with but I think their success on the basis that the 'realist' wing now dominates, and they've shown that in coalition for a number of years:

    "The Green party in Germany is not the socialist project of Extinction Rebellion. In many ways, it is further to the right than the British Conservatives. In November, the party launched a ‘zero tolerance’ plan to tackle Muslim extremism, calling for a boost to police powers and a ban on Salafi organisations. Meanwhile, the Greens have successfully run Baden-Württemberg, Germany’s third largest state, since 2011, where self-confessed ‘green conservative’ Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister-President, has fought against tax increases and in favour of pro-market policies. The proud diesel-driving Catholic also takes a tough line on migrant gangs, arguing that ‘the most dangerous thing that human evolution has produced is hordes of young men’. Kretschmann was re-elected earlier this year on an increased majority.

    The appeal of the German Greens lies in their centrism. Both Baerbock and Habeck have relentlessly stressed the party’s status as a Bündnispartei — a coalition party willing to work with anyone in order to get things done. Its ecological politics are broad and popular: promoting renewables, protecting the environment and promising new green jobs. But it opposes Nord Stream 2, Merkel’s dream of an oil pipeline flowing from Russia that many see as the cause of her ambivalence towards Putin. Berlin’s western allies would be only too happy to see the Kremlin’s crude tentacles cut back."


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-about-to-go-green

    Its worth remembering that the German Greens green ambitions are more moderate than Boris's Conservatives ones are.

    From what I've read the German Greens would be my second choice party as it stands (FDP first), but I don't think their voting system works via ranked voting.
    Boris is at serious reach of overreach on his green stuff.

    It's the most obvious vector upon which a threat to his right-flank could develop.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited May 10

    Leon said:

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
    The Scots that were involved with the British Empire, slavers, tobacco barons, etc, would have identified as British. Their successors are the likes of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown. Not Scots.
    Lol! You’re retrospectively saying they aren’t proper Scots? I mean, we’ll happily take all their achievements. You’ll be left with... erm... Burns and Robert the Bruce.

    Edit: Fleming, Smith, Hume, James Clark Maxwell. Who wants the likes of those? They were “not Scots”.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    I'm not sure German anti-colonialism is quite the issue over there.

    We stripped them of their overseas empire in 1918, and the allied powers of their European one in 1945, and neither was - how can we put it generously - "ambiguous" in the legacy it left for humanity.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    To unite the threads of architecture and Germany, see this

    The Germans have simply abandoned the attempt to make attractive modernist town centres, realising we are somehow incapable. Instead they are now rebuilding entire medieval town centres, brick for brick, from scratch - the ones the RAF flattened. Frankfurt is an example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom-Römer_Project


    We should do exactly the same in the UK. I can think of a dozen cities/disrricts, off the bat, which would benefit enormously from such a scheme. Coventry, Exeter, Northampton, maybe Brum, Swansea, Plymouth, Derby, Clydebank, do it.

    Architects will shriek and howl and moan about "pastiche" but given that they are congenitally unable to design anything better they can fuck off

    Some of Bath too. It got the Baedeker treatment. And Portsmouth, especially the area to the south and east of the nasval dockyard. Hell, even Plymouth naval base could do with the restoration of the residential terrace - the south part is in part a mess from hasty wastime/postwar expansion over blitzed areas.

    Haven't the Germans been doing it for some time? Or am I thinking of the Poles and Warsaw? But it's a nice approach.
    The Poles have certainly been doing it for decades, to great success, also the Baltics, maybe Czechia?

    We also do it in a quiet way. Half of the Nash Terraces were rebuilt from scratch after the war - unbelievably, there was a Labour Party plan to demolish them all - Churchill supposedly intervened.

    They are still being rebuilt now, half of Park Crescent was torn down and replaced - identically - in the last few years

    To my mind the Nash Terraces constitute the most beautiful ensemble of urban domestic architecture in the world. They are certainly successful, and desirable. You can buy a whole one for £185 million

    https://luxurylondon.co.uk/house/property/john-nash-terrace-regents-park

    But we don't have to do lavish - just do it like Frankfurt. They rebuilt an entire "old town" city centre for £180m. We should deffo copy
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    To unite the threads of architecture and Germany, see this

    The Germans have simply abandoned the attempt to make attractive modernist town centres, realising we are somehow incapable. Instead they are now rebuilding entire medieval town centres, brick for brick, from scratch - the ones the RAF flattened. Frankfurt is an example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom-Römer_Project


    We should do exactly the same in the UK. I can think of a dozen cities/disrricts, off the bat, which would benefit enormously from such a scheme. Coventry, Exeter, Northampton, maybe Brum, Swansea, Plymouth, Derby, Clydebank, do it.

    Architects will shriek and howl and moan about "pastiche" but given that they are congenitally unable to design anything better they can fuck off

    Some of Bath too. It got the Baedeker treatment. And Portsmouth, especially the area to the south and east of the nasval dockyard. Hell, even Plymouth naval base could do with the restoration of the residential terrace - the south part is in part a mess from hasty wastime/postwar expansion over blitzed areas.

    Haven't the Germans been doing it for some time? Or am I thinking of the Poles and Warsaw? But it's a nice approach.
    Berlin is a monument to reconstruction, though the old West Berlin has the more meticulous rebuilds. At least both sides avoided building up, Ferhsenturm aside.
    Even the GDR spent a shitload on rebuilding historical Dresden, though the replacement housing for Dresdeners was somewhat more utilitarian.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280

    Leon said:

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
    The Scots that were involved with the British Empire, slavers, tobacco barons, etc, would have identified as British. Their successors are the likes of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown. Not Scots.
    If anyone was left wondering just how delusional the SNP and other nationalists can get...
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 737

    Leon said:

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
    The Scots that were involved with the British Empire, slavers, tobacco barons, etc, would have identified as British. Their successors are the likes of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown. Not Scots.
    Lol! You’re retrospectively saying they aren’t proper Scots? I mean, we’ll happily take all their achievements. You’ll be left with... erm... Burns and Robert the Bruce.
    You’re welcome to the achievements of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    It wasn't in Newcastle. It was in Gateshead. And was iconic. I have a coffee mug with a picture of it on the side.

    So what replaced it? A branch of Tesco.
    Yeah, I liked it. But I didn't have to live with it looming over me every day in Gateshead/Newky. It was quite, er, "imposing"
    It was also impractical - I remember that some floors had ceilings that were below minimum legal heights (we used to park there when heading to Newcastle, we now park by Gateshead Stadium metro or Grangertown car park)
    Sounds fantastic. Would keep out the Chelsea tractors.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited May 10

    Leon said:

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
    The Scots that were involved with the British Empire, slavers, tobacco barons, etc, would have identified as British. Their successors are the likes of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown. Not Scots.
    Lol! You’re retrospectively saying they aren’t proper Scots? I mean, we’ll happily take all their achievements. You’ll be left with... erm... Burns and Robert the Bruce.
    You’re welcome to the achievements of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown.
    Alexander Fleming? James Clerk Maxwell? Adam Smith? David Hume? Gladstone?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 15,348
    Alistair said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Had huge impact on the cost. He died before he drew up the final plans. He;d delivered the vision (so we were still goig to end up with an awful looking building) but he hadn't finished the "turning the vision into an actual working building" when he popped his clogs.

    given he was a massive award winning architect the people who came along to finish the job were too scared to make the necessary changes. As a result everyone struggled to build a basically impossible design thus the massive cost overrun and various ergonomic problems of actually using it as a parliament.

    He certainly had a 'distinct' style - that's a market in Barcelona


    So that's why people are willing to pay good money for old pallets.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,836
    edited May 10
    Leon said:

    I think the Senedd looks a bit like a car dealership

    The Senedd is powerful and exquisite and uplifting, with an amazing interior


    https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/senedd-cymru-why-has-the-national-assembly-for-wales-changed-its-name/

    https://www.arup.com/projects/national-assembly-for-wales


    It also cost £67m unlike the £414m for Holyrood
    It doesn't look bad, but I do find the design a bit unusual for a parliament. It reminds me of large, wood-textured bars / mega-nightclubs, orientated towards the outdoors and the sea, that you'll find in ritzier parts of the coastal strip of Glyfada in Athens, Tel Aviv or LA.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    I see bitfinex/tether are no longer even trying to hide the fraud

    https://twitter.com/bitfinex/status/1390241119687032840?s=19

    Just astonishing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,755
    Alistair said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Had huge impact on the cost. He died before he drew up the final plans. He;d delivered the vision (so we were still goig to end up with an awful looking building) but he hadn't finished the "turning the vision into an actual working building" when he popped his clogs.

    given he was a massive award winning architect the people who came along to finish the job were too scared to make the necessary changes. As a result everyone struggled to build a basically impossible design thus the massive cost overrun and various ergonomic problems of actually using it as a parliament.

    He certainly had a 'distinct' style - that's a market in Barcelona


    It looks like a load of deckchairs got picked up in a wind storm and ended up stuck to the building.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219

    Leon said:

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
    The Scots that were involved with the British Empire, slavers, tobacco barons, etc, would have identified as British. Their successors are the likes of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown. Not Scots.
    No true Scotsmen.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    I think the German Greens are well to the Left of where I'd be comfortable with but I think their success on the basis that the 'realist' wing now dominates, and they've shown that in coalition for a number of years:

    "The Green party in Germany is not the socialist project of Extinction Rebellion. In many ways, it is further to the right than the British Conservatives. In November, the party launched a ‘zero tolerance’ plan to tackle Muslim extremism, calling for a boost to police powers and a ban on Salafi organisations. Meanwhile, the Greens have successfully run Baden-Württemberg, Germany’s third largest state, since 2011, where self-confessed ‘green conservative’ Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister-President, has fought against tax increases and in favour of pro-market policies. The proud diesel-driving Catholic also takes a tough line on migrant gangs, arguing that ‘the most dangerous thing that human evolution has produced is hordes of young men’. Kretschmann was re-elected earlier this year on an increased majority.

    The appeal of the German Greens lies in their centrism. Both Baerbock and Habeck have relentlessly stressed the party’s status as a Bündnispartei — a coalition party willing to work with anyone in order to get things done. Its ecological politics are broad and popular: promoting renewables, protecting the environment and promising new green jobs. But it opposes Nord Stream 2, Merkel’s dream of an oil pipeline flowing from Russia that many see as the cause of her ambivalence towards Putin. Berlin’s western allies would be only too happy to see the Kremlin’s crude tentacles cut back."


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-about-to-go-green

    Its worth remembering that the German Greens green ambitions are more moderate than Boris's Conservatives ones are.

    From what I've read the German Greens would be my second choice party as it stands (FDP first), but I don't think their voting system works via ranked voting.
    Boris is at serious reach of overreach on his green stuff.

    It's the most obvious vector upon which a threat to his right-flank could develop.
    I think the Tories have just made a (logical) bet that a mix of technology and behavioural changes people want to make anyway will get us there with limited pain. That being the case, we might as well be first mover and try and crack some of the technologies.

    That’s why I’m behind it anyway.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    edited May 10

    Alistair said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Had huge impact on the cost. He died before he drew up the final plans. He;d delivered the vision (so we were still goig to end up with an awful looking building) but he hadn't finished the "turning the vision into an actual working building" when he popped his clogs.

    given he was a massive award winning architect the people who came along to finish the job were too scared to make the necessary changes. As a result everyone struggled to build a basically impossible design thus the massive cost overrun and various ergonomic problems of actually using it as a parliament.

    He certainly had a 'distinct' style - that's a market in Barcelona


    It looks like a load of deckchairs got picked up in a wind storm and ended up stuck to the building.
    Interestingly, it also shows that Holyrood was not a one-off, a hideous cat-poo of a building that went wrong coz the old guy snuffed it, no, Enric Miralles was designing truly ugly buildings that look like cheap demented shacks built by teams of alcoholics, long before that
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Talking of delusions some choice quotations from that superb work of Scottish fantasy, not Lanark by Alasdair Gray but the even more fantastical Scotland's future:

    P 72
    “”Negotiations will enable phasing and the financial consequences of transition to be agreed, planned and managed by all parties”.[NB Is that even English?]


    P 113
    “”There could be a shared Sterling Area prudential regulatory authority…Alternatively, this could be undertaken by the regulatory arm of a Scottish Monetary Institute working alongside the equivalent UK authority on a consistent and harmonised basis.”


    p 350
    “The Scottish government expects Scottish bonds to become firmly established as a low risk, gilt-edged investment backed by Scotland’s substantial oil reserves and a stable, high-skilled economy trading successfully within the EU with few uncertainties.”

    I think that for sheer off the wall lunacy the last one is the winner but a case could be made for each.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,507

    I think the German Greens are well to the Left of where I'd be comfortable with but I think their success on the basis that the 'realist' wing now dominates, and they've shown that in coalition for a number of years:

    "The Green party in Germany is not the socialist project of Extinction Rebellion. In many ways, it is further to the right than the British Conservatives. In November, the party launched a ‘zero tolerance’ plan to tackle Muslim extremism, calling for a boost to police powers and a ban on Salafi organisations. Meanwhile, the Greens have successfully run Baden-Württemberg, Germany’s third largest state, since 2011, where self-confessed ‘green conservative’ Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister-President, has fought against tax increases and in favour of pro-market policies. The proud diesel-driving Catholic also takes a tough line on migrant gangs, arguing that ‘the most dangerous thing that human evolution has produced is hordes of young men’. Kretschmann was re-elected earlier this year on an increased majority.

    The appeal of the German Greens lies in their centrism. Both Baerbock and Habeck have relentlessly stressed the party’s status as a Bündnispartei — a coalition party willing to work with anyone in order to get things done. Its ecological politics are broad and popular: promoting renewables, protecting the environment and promising new green jobs. But it opposes Nord Stream 2, Merkel’s dream of an oil pipeline flowing from Russia that many see as the cause of her ambivalence towards Putin. Berlin’s western allies would be only too happy to see the Kremlin’s crude tentacles cut back."


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-about-to-go-green

    Its worth remembering that the German Greens green ambitions are more moderate than Boris's Conservatives ones are.

    From what I've read the German Greens would be my second choice party as it stands (FDP first), but I don't think their voting system works via ranked voting.
    Boris is at serious reach of overreach on his green stuff.

    It's the most obvious vector upon which a threat to his right-flank could develop.
    I'm not convinced that's right.

    I think (and I believe you agree) that technology is the solution to green issues. Not abstinence, vegetarianism, or any other hair-shirt bullshit.

    In some ways I think the green stuff could be a big win for Boris in the same way as the vaccines were. Instead of backing hairshirt bollocks, by backing new clean technologies firm and hard in the same way as the vaccines were backed early - the UK could be at the forefront of economic development in this area.

    Plus in a decades time when Boris retires and the UK is already getting close to zero emissions what do the left have to say on the matter anymore? Smashing windows and protesting in London may seem clever to them and offputting to everyone else while they're able to claim there's an "emergency", but to do so once the UK has already firmly and irreversibly sorted out its own backyard its going to look as stupid as the Zero Covidiots like that female Scottish scientist and "independent SAGE" do now.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,737
    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Had huge impact on the cost. He died before he drew up the final plans. He;d delivered the vision (so we were still goig to end up with an awful looking building) but he hadn't finished the "turning the vision into an actual working building" when he popped his clogs.

    given he was a massive award winning architect the people who came along to finish the job were too scared to make the necessary changes. As a result everyone struggled to build a basically impossible design thus the massive cost overrun and various ergonomic problems of actually using it as a parliament.

    He certainly had a 'distinct' style - that's a market in Barcelona


    It looks like a load of deckchairs got picked up in a wind storm and ended up stuck to the building.
    Interestingly, it also shows that Holyrood was not a one-off, a hideous cat-poo of a building that went wrong coz the old guy snuffed it, no, Enric Miralles was designing truly ugly buildings that look like cheap demented shacks built by teams of alcoholics, long before that
    Reckon that's grossly unfair. To alcoholics & the demented. Also shacks.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,544


    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    Alistair said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Had huge impact on the cost. He died before he drew up the final plans. He;d delivered the vision (so we were still goig to end up with an awful looking building) but he hadn't finished the "turning the vision into an actual working building" when he popped his clogs.

    given he was a massive award winning architect the people who came along to finish the job were too scared to make the necessary changes. As a result everyone struggled to build a basically impossible design thus the massive cost overrun and various ergonomic problems of actually using it as a parliament.

    He certainly had a 'distinct' style - that's a market in Barcelona


    So that's why people are willing to pay good money for old pallets.
    I can't get over that photo.

    Presumably, a squad of Scottish politicians went over to Barcelona, looked at this arse-aching heap of sad, misconceived shite, and said "Great, we want more of that in Edinburgh, only much bigger and grossly over-priced"
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,632
    Bastani seems to be throwing a lot of love Burnham's way in last day or so.

    Is the Left considering he might be their best bet?
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited May 10
    DavidL said:

    Talking of delusions some choice quotations from that superb work of Scottish fantasy, not Lanark by Alasdair Gray but the even more fantastical Scotland's future:

    P 72
    “”Negotiations will enable phasing and the financial consequences of transition to be agreed, planned and managed by all parties”.[NB Is that even English?]


    P 113
    “”There could be a shared Sterling Area prudential regulatory authority…Alternatively, this could be undertaken by the regulatory arm of a Scottish Monetary Institute working alongside the equivalent UK authority on a consistent and harmonised basis.”


    p 350
    “The Scottish government expects Scottish bonds to become firmly established as a low risk, gilt-edged investment backed by Scotland’s substantial oil reserves and a stable, high-skilled economy trading successfully within the EU with few uncertainties.”

    I think that for sheer off the wall lunacy the last one is the winner but a case could be made for each.

    Imagine the smile on the faces of the future rUK negotiating team.

    “Absolutely you can have all future rights over the oil fields - revenues and decommissioning costs (snigger) so long as we get everything else we want. Seriously - we will yield all rights to North Sea oil, even in our waters if you like”.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,737
    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Had huge impact on the cost. He died before he drew up the final plans. He;d delivered the vision (so we were still goig to end up with an awful looking building) but he hadn't finished the "turning the vision into an actual working building" when he popped his clogs.

    given he was a massive award winning architect the people who came along to finish the job were too scared to make the necessary changes. As a result everyone struggled to build a basically impossible design thus the massive cost overrun and various ergonomic problems of actually using it as a parliament.

    He certainly had a 'distinct' style - that's a market in Barcelona


    It looks like a load of deckchairs got picked up in a wind storm and ended up stuck to the building.
    Interestingly, it also shows that Holyrood was not a one-off, a hideous cat-poo of a building that went wrong coz the old guy snuffed it, no, Enric Miralles was designing truly ugly buildings that look like cheap demented shacks built by teams of alcoholics, long before that
    Given Leon's comment AND recent Scottish parliamentary history, perhaps this is apropos?

    Though not sure it was actually filmed at Holyrood.

    The B-52's - Love Shack
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOryJvTAGs
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 97,925
    DavidL said:

    Talking of delusions some choice quotations from that superb work of Scottish fantasy, not Lanark by Alasdair Gray but the even more fantastical Scotland's future:

    P 72
    “”Negotiations will enable phasing and the financial consequences of transition to be agreed, planned and managed by all parties”.[NB Is that even English?]


    P 113
    “”There could be a shared Sterling Area prudential regulatory authority…Alternatively, this could be undertaken by the regulatory arm of a Scottish Monetary Institute working alongside the equivalent UK authority on a consistent and harmonised basis.”


    p 350
    “The Scottish government expects Scottish bonds to become firmly established as a low risk, gilt-edged investment backed by Scotland’s substantial oil reserves and a stable, high-skilled economy trading successfully within the EU with few uncertainties.”

    I think that for sheer off the wall lunacy the last one is the winner but a case could be made for each.

    See page 113 is what cracks me up.

    No Nat has been able to tell me what happens if the Sterling Area PRA has been set different targets by an independent Scotland and RUK?

    As for the SMI I can only assume someone who doesn't working in banking/financial services came up with that one.

    If there's one thing Brexit has shown, harmonisation between two divorcing patterns is difficult on mundane things, just imagine what it will be like on the currency and/or interest rates.

    As for Scottish bonds, well given how many Nats, including a former First Minister, talk about walking away with no debts, good luck with that one.

    PS - If it gives you any consolation I have to read reports like Mr Gray's as my day job.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,320
    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    Boris wins telling the truth 33/27
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,500

    Bastani seems to be throwing a lot of love Burnham's way in last day or so.

    Is the Left considering he might be their best bet?

    Maybe they've begun to decide they want to win?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,507
    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    I have to agree with the public on all of its choices, including the only one that they give to Starmer.

    But cruel of the British public that nearly as many think that Boris is in better physical and mental health than Starmer. That has to be the only one I'd have unambiguously given to Starmer.

    Love that 6% more think that Boris tells the truth more than Starmer.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,836
    edited May 10
    That's what the aesthetic of the Senedd reminds me of, bizarrely. This vast new project being built in Athens.

    https://www.businessdaily.gr/english-edition/2470_lamda-offer-low-prices-10000-hellinikon-apartments

    Mediterranean glam meets Mark Drakeford.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280

    DavidL said:

    Talking of delusions some choice quotations from that superb work of Scottish fantasy, not Lanark by Alasdair Gray but the even more fantastical Scotland's future:

    P 72
    “”Negotiations will enable phasing and the financial consequences of transition to be agreed, planned and managed by all parties”.[NB Is that even English?]


    P 113
    “”There could be a shared Sterling Area prudential regulatory authority…Alternatively, this could be undertaken by the regulatory arm of a Scottish Monetary Institute working alongside the equivalent UK authority on a consistent and harmonised basis.”


    p 350
    “The Scottish government expects Scottish bonds to become firmly established as a low risk, gilt-edged investment backed by Scotland’s substantial oil reserves and a stable, high-skilled economy trading successfully within the EU with few uncertainties.”

    I think that for sheer off the wall lunacy the last one is the winner but a case could be made for each.

    See page 113 is what cracks me up.

    No Nat has been able to tell me what happens if the Sterling Area PRA has been set different targets by an independent Scotland and RUK?

    As for the SMI I can only assume someone who doesn't working in banking/financial services came up with that one.

    If there's one thing Brexit has shown, harmonisation between two divorcing patterns is difficult on mundane things, just imagine what it will be like on the currency and/or interest rates.

    As for Scottish bonds, well given how many Nats, including a former First Minister, talk about walking away with no debts, good luck with that one.

    PS - If it gives you any consolation I have to read reports like Mr Gray's as my day job.
    I confess that at the moment I am pretty inconsolable. 50% of my fellow countrymen who bothered to vote just endorsed the deputy first Minister at the time that that shite was written and published with public money. We are so far through the looking glass that I am genuinely not sure that there is a way back.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    The depressing bit though is that, as discussed heavily on this site over the last few days, it’s hard to imagine any Labour MP in Parliament doing a lot better.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,507
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Talking of delusions some choice quotations from that superb work of Scottish fantasy, not Lanark by Alasdair Gray but the even more fantastical Scotland's future:

    P 72
    “”Negotiations will enable phasing and the financial consequences of transition to be agreed, planned and managed by all parties”.[NB Is that even English?]


    P 113
    “”There could be a shared Sterling Area prudential regulatory authority…Alternatively, this could be undertaken by the regulatory arm of a Scottish Monetary Institute working alongside the equivalent UK authority on a consistent and harmonised basis.”


    p 350
    “The Scottish government expects Scottish bonds to become firmly established as a low risk, gilt-edged investment backed by Scotland’s substantial oil reserves and a stable, high-skilled economy trading successfully within the EU with few uncertainties.”

    I think that for sheer off the wall lunacy the last one is the winner but a case could be made for each.

    See page 113 is what cracks me up.

    No Nat has been able to tell me what happens if the Sterling Area PRA has been set different targets by an independent Scotland and RUK?

    As for the SMI I can only assume someone who doesn't working in banking/financial services came up with that one.

    If there's one thing Brexit has shown, harmonisation between two divorcing patterns is difficult on mundane things, just imagine what it will be like on the currency and/or interest rates.

    As for Scottish bonds, well given how many Nats, including a former First Minister, talk about walking away with no debts, good luck with that one.

    PS - If it gives you any consolation I have to read reports like Mr Gray's as my day job.
    I confess that at the moment I am pretty inconsolable. 50% of my fellow countrymen who bothered to vote just endorsed the deputy first Minister at the time that that shite was written and published with public money. We are so far through the looking glass that I am genuinely not sure that there is a way back.
    Face reality. Its the only solution.

    Otherwise they will forever remain in denial, but once they face reality they need to start dealing with it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    It's difficult to see how he can if he loses Batley & Spen.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    Maybe its just me but the last time I entered into a discussion about dismissing someone (and I really hated it in fairness) I did not come out of those discussions having promoted the person concerned. They were, well, dismissed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,632
    I want the covid public inquiry to look into why we went from the Government's long established pandemic plan, which rules out draconian policies, to this:


    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    43s
    Tuesday’s i - “Six days until you can hug your family” #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 97,925
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Talking of delusions some choice quotations from that superb work of Scottish fantasy, not Lanark by Alasdair Gray but the even more fantastical Scotland's future:

    P 72
    “”Negotiations will enable phasing and the financial consequences of transition to be agreed, planned and managed by all parties”.[NB Is that even English?]


    P 113
    “”There could be a shared Sterling Area prudential regulatory authority…Alternatively, this could be undertaken by the regulatory arm of a Scottish Monetary Institute working alongside the equivalent UK authority on a consistent and harmonised basis.”


    p 350
    “The Scottish government expects Scottish bonds to become firmly established as a low risk, gilt-edged investment backed by Scotland’s substantial oil reserves and a stable, high-skilled economy trading successfully within the EU with few uncertainties.”

    I think that for sheer off the wall lunacy the last one is the winner but a case could be made for each.

    See page 113 is what cracks me up.

    No Nat has been able to tell me what happens if the Sterling Area PRA has been set different targets by an independent Scotland and RUK?

    As for the SMI I can only assume someone who doesn't working in banking/financial services came up with that one.

    If there's one thing Brexit has shown, harmonisation between two divorcing patterns is difficult on mundane things, just imagine what it will be like on the currency and/or interest rates.

    As for Scottish bonds, well given how many Nats, including a former First Minister, talk about walking away with no debts, good luck with that one.

    PS - If it gives you any consolation I have to read reports like Mr Gray's as my day job.
    I confess that at the moment I am pretty inconsolable. 50% of my fellow countrymen who bothered to vote just endorsed the deputy first Minister at the time that that shite was written and published with public money. We are so far through the looking glass that I am genuinely not sure that there is a way back.
    That's the will of the people, vox populi, vox Dei.

    As with Brexit you learn to live with it, whilst shaking your head and sighing internally.

    Look on the bright side, Mrs Sturgeon and have set the standard for overturning the referendum to around 5/6 years.

    If an independent Scotland turns out to be a mistake you can rejoin within a decade.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,507

    I want the covid public inquiry to look into why we went from the Government's long established pandemic plan, which rules out draconian policies, to this:


    Allie Hodgkins-Brown
    @AllieHBNews
    ·
    43s
    Tuesday’s i - “Six days until you can hug your family” #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Because the pandemic was much more severe and serious than any flu that had been planned for. We know that already. 😕
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,320
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Talking of delusions some choice quotations from that superb work of Scottish fantasy, not Lanark by Alasdair Gray but the even more fantastical Scotland's future:

    P 72
    “”Negotiations will enable phasing and the financial consequences of transition to be agreed, planned and managed by all parties”.[NB Is that even English?]


    P 113
    “”There could be a shared Sterling Area prudential regulatory authority…Alternatively, this could be undertaken by the regulatory arm of a Scottish Monetary Institute working alongside the equivalent UK authority on a consistent and harmonised basis.”


    p 350
    “The Scottish government expects Scottish bonds to become firmly established as a low risk, gilt-edged investment backed by Scotland’s substantial oil reserves and a stable, high-skilled economy trading successfully within the EU with few uncertainties.”

    I think that for sheer off the wall lunacy the last one is the winner but a case could be made for each.

    See page 113 is what cracks me up.

    No Nat has been able to tell me what happens if the Sterling Area PRA has been set different targets by an independent Scotland and RUK?

    As for the SMI I can only assume someone who doesn't working in banking/financial services came up with that one.

    If there's one thing Brexit has shown, harmonisation between two divorcing patterns is difficult on mundane things, just imagine what it will be like on the currency and/or interest rates.

    As for Scottish bonds, well given how many Nats, including a former First Minister, talk about walking away with no debts, good luck with that one.

    PS - If it gives you any consolation I have to read reports like Mr Gray's as my day job.
    I confess that at the moment I am pretty inconsolable. 50% of my fellow countrymen who bothered to vote just endorsed the deputy first Minister at the time that that shite was written and published with public money. We are so far through the looking glass that I am genuinely not sure that there is a way back.
    Apparently, Nicola says all our children and grandchildren will be entitled to a Scots passport, as no doubt will my wife

    They all live in Wales other than our eldest who lives in Vancouver
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    edited May 10

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    The depressing bit though is that, as discussed heavily on this site over the last few days, it’s hard to imagine any Labour MP in Parliament doing a lot better.
    *faint despairing voice*

    Yvette Cooper?

    Probably too Remainery

    They need a virile, patriotic Brexiteer - or at least someone more ambiguous on Brexit than Starmer.

    Or they just accept that they are headed for another defeat, probably, and Starmer is the stoical Michael Howard who will take the punishment, absorb the blows, rebuild the party, and cue them up for victory in 2027-28. And in the meantime FFS find some good young leadership candidates. There must be SOME
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,507
    edited May 10

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Talking of delusions some choice quotations from that superb work of Scottish fantasy, not Lanark by Alasdair Gray but the even more fantastical Scotland's future:

    P 72
    “”Negotiations will enable phasing and the financial consequences of transition to be agreed, planned and managed by all parties”.[NB Is that even English?]


    P 113
    “”There could be a shared Sterling Area prudential regulatory authority…Alternatively, this could be undertaken by the regulatory arm of a Scottish Monetary Institute working alongside the equivalent UK authority on a consistent and harmonised basis.”


    p 350
    “The Scottish government expects Scottish bonds to become firmly established as a low risk, gilt-edged investment backed by Scotland’s substantial oil reserves and a stable, high-skilled economy trading successfully within the EU with few uncertainties.”

    I think that for sheer off the wall lunacy the last one is the winner but a case could be made for each.

    See page 113 is what cracks me up.

    No Nat has been able to tell me what happens if the Sterling Area PRA has been set different targets by an independent Scotland and RUK?

    As for the SMI I can only assume someone who doesn't working in banking/financial services came up with that one.

    If there's one thing Brexit has shown, harmonisation between two divorcing patterns is difficult on mundane things, just imagine what it will be like on the currency and/or interest rates.

    As for Scottish bonds, well given how many Nats, including a former First Minister, talk about walking away with no debts, good luck with that one.

    PS - If it gives you any consolation I have to read reports like Mr Gray's as my day job.
    I confess that at the moment I am pretty inconsolable. 50% of my fellow countrymen who bothered to vote just endorsed the deputy first Minister at the time that that shite was written and published with public money. We are so far through the looking glass that I am genuinely not sure that there is a way back.
    That's the will of the people, vox populi, vox Dei.

    As with Brexit you learn to live with it, whilst shaking your head and sighing internally.

    Look on the bright side, Mrs Sturgeon and have set the standard for overturning the referendum to around 5/6 years.

    If an independent Scotland turns out to be a mistake you can rejoin within a decade.
    Just as if Brexit turns out to be a mistake and Labour win 2024 pledging to rejoin the EU, we could rejoin within a decade.

    Won't happen though. Any of it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 13,854
    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    Brutalism seems to work with the Barbican.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,753
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Centre-left vote in Europe

    UK
    Lowest since 1935

    Austria
    Lowest since 1911

    Germany
    Lowest since 1932

    France
    Lowest ever

    Italy
    Lowest ever

    N'lands
    Lowest ever

    Sweden
    Lowest since 1908

    Finland
    2nd lowest

    Spain
    3rd lowest since democracy

    Maybe it's not Brexit or Starmer?
    5:15 PM · May 10, 2021·Twitter Web App

    What this boils down to, in my opinion, is the impatience and intolerance of left-wing voters. They're no longer prepared to compromise on anything, so they're fragmenting into all sorts of different minor parties that promise unrealistic outcomes in a short time frame. They want everything yesterday. They're not interested in the "long slog" of ordinary politics. The established centre-left parties are too slow and non-radical for their liking.
    It's not "the Left" - it's the end of a mass unionised working-class labour force forming the bedrock of established left-wing parties throughout the West. The nature of both work and politics has changed.

    Now, "Left" means radical action on climate change and social issues, and individual identity being more important than national identity.
    Parties that want to win elections have to do two things, both essential: they have to present a message that people will vote for, not should vote for or used to vote for. And they have to present as being compasses rather than weather vanes leaders not followers. Left and right all that stuff means nothing in this context. There is stuff and presentations that people will vote for and things they won't. Labels don't really help.

    BTW to say something positive about SKS, just recently the USA escaped from a leader who plainly supported violence in his cause and the overthrow of the democratic process if it would help him. He could even have won if a few million people had switched. This is scary. While Jezza was in charge there was only one party in UK who could win and be trusted with having the state in its hands. With SKS in charge there are now two. Like America we always need a spare party just in case.

    It wasn't Jezza who lied to the Palace or unlawfully prorogued Parliament or purged internal dissent or who just today is proposing to embark on voter suppression.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,324
    edited May 10
    Carnyx said:

    Foss said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The Americans have discovered Holyrood, the building. An amusing thread

    ‘The Scottish Parliament is, truly, one of the ugliest buildings ever built.’

    https://twitter.com/lvcivs_mcmxci/status/1391096874543685632?s=21

    They’re not wrong. It’s shockingly bad. An obscene insult to one of the most serenely beautiful cities in the world. How did it happen? How did it cost so much???

    The amazing thing is that, despite costing £400m, it manages to look cheap. Like a po-mo Premier Inn on the outskirts of Basingstoke

    The worst public building erected in the UK - ever??

    They needed something to make what happened inside look good. It didn't work.

    And in fairness with the building of the turd it is probably only the second ugliest building in Edinburgh.
    I thought it cost more than 400m
    I think that the official figure was £414.4m. Not even worth 1% of that.
    It has a negative value. Because it is actively ugly, and distressing to look at, so it detracts from the cityscape of lovely Edinburgh, and harms its reputation.

    And every day someone looks at it and winces, and their day is made just a little bit worse. It is bad for humankind

    Someone should write a book about how a building this obviously horrible and ugly ends up getting built, and at such vast expense, to boot. It's the architectural equivalent of one of those mahoosively expensive Hollywood movies that make about $3. Like Heaven's Gate. Or the Postman by Kevin Costner.

    Unlike those movies, Holyrood will never gain a cult following and it will always be there in your face to insult Edinburgh folk, until it is demolished in a fit of honest shame

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_Building

    Books already written.

    The SNP wanted it in the old Royal High School high up on Calton Hill, but that was too uppity for the Unionists and it had to be put down in the valley next to Holyroodhouse [the Palace].
    So how does that explain why it's so (apparently) god awful?
    It doesn't. But it does explain the location.

    The primary architect did die half way through designing it (if you see what I mean) but I'm not sure how much impact that had.
    Location & architect change likely upped the price tag, but price tag was probably gonna be stratospheric regardless.
    Funny thing was there was a superb Enlightenment Greek Revival building lying empty. But oh no, having it on the hill was too much of a nationalist shibboleth and no the SNP wouldn't be listened to when they wanted to put it there.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-41097272
    That’s a good looking building. Westminster were fools to turn it down.
    Still not found a use.
    Saved from being turned into a boutique hotel, current proposals include making it into a music school.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,888
    eek said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    It wasn't in Newcastle. It was in Gateshead. And was iconic. I have a coffee mug with a picture of it on the side.

    So what replaced it? A branch of Tesco.
    Yeah, I liked it. But I didn't have to live with it looming over me every day in Gateshead/Newky. It was quite, er, "imposing"
    It was also impractical - I remember that some floors had ceilings that were below minimum legal heights (we used to park there when heading to Newcastle, we now park by Gateshead Stadium metro or Grangertown car park)
    The St James Park council car park is better. It’s always empty and like 70p per hour.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,036
    edited May 10
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    Brutalism seems to work with the Barbican.
    Nope. Monstrosity. Or rather four monstrosities.

    Brutalist buildings should survive only in photos, so we don't make the same mistakes again.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972

    I think the German Greens are well to the Left of where I'd be comfortable with but I think their success on the basis that the 'realist' wing now dominates, and they've shown that in coalition for a number of years:

    "The Green party in Germany is not the socialist project of Extinction Rebellion. In many ways, it is further to the right than the British Conservatives. In November, the party launched a ‘zero tolerance’ plan to tackle Muslim extremism, calling for a boost to police powers and a ban on Salafi organisations. Meanwhile, the Greens have successfully run Baden-Württemberg, Germany’s third largest state, since 2011, where self-confessed ‘green conservative’ Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister-President, has fought against tax increases and in favour of pro-market policies. The proud diesel-driving Catholic also takes a tough line on migrant gangs, arguing that ‘the most dangerous thing that human evolution has produced is hordes of young men’. Kretschmann was re-elected earlier this year on an increased majority.

    The appeal of the German Greens lies in their centrism. Both Baerbock and Habeck have relentlessly stressed the party’s status as a Bündnispartei — a coalition party willing to work with anyone in order to get things done. Its ecological politics are broad and popular: promoting renewables, protecting the environment and promising new green jobs. But it opposes Nord Stream 2, Merkel’s dream of an oil pipeline flowing from Russia that many see as the cause of her ambivalence towards Putin. Berlin’s western allies would be only too happy to see the Kremlin’s crude tentacles cut back."


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-about-to-go-green

    Its worth remembering that the German Greens green ambitions are more moderate than Boris's Conservatives ones are.

    From what I've read the German Greens would be my second choice party as it stands (FDP first), but I don't think their voting system works via ranked voting.
    Boris is at serious reach of overreach on his green stuff.

    It's the most obvious vector upon which a threat to his right-flank could develop.
    I think the Tories have just made a (logical) bet that a mix of technology and behavioural changes people want to make anyway will get us there with limited pain. That being the case, we might as well be first mover and try and crack some of the technologies.

    That’s why I’m behind it anyway.
    People will go for it if it makes their lives better, and only if it makes their lives better

    If it costs them a lot of money or sacrifices, involving things like rationing or holiday restrictions, then they will tell the Government to piss off.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,544
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    Maybe 48 think Boris doesn’t Stand up for the interests of the UK making it +4 net, whilst only 20 think Sir Keir doesn’t, with 55 don’t knows, making him the winner by 1 point in net ratings!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 4,836
    edited May 10
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    Brutalism seems to work with the Barbican.
    Actually I agree there. While having qualified opinions about a number of similar buildings, there is something about that whole development that is more relatable than many similar ones.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 5,737

    Leon said:

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
    The Scots that were involved with the British Empire, slavers, tobacco barons, etc, would have identified as British. Their successors are the likes of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown. Not Scots.
    Lol! You’re retrospectively saying they aren’t proper Scots? I mean, we’ll happily take all their achievements. You’ll be left with... erm... Burns and Robert the Bruce.
    You’re welcome to the achievements of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown.
    Alexander Fleming? James Clerk Maxwell? Adam Smith? David Hume? Gladstone?
    Sir Arthur Conan Doyle? Harry Lauder? Tommy Sheridan?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972

    I think the German Greens are well to the Left of where I'd be comfortable with but I think their success on the basis that the 'realist' wing now dominates, and they've shown that in coalition for a number of years:

    "The Green party in Germany is not the socialist project of Extinction Rebellion. In many ways, it is further to the right than the British Conservatives. In November, the party launched a ‘zero tolerance’ plan to tackle Muslim extremism, calling for a boost to police powers and a ban on Salafi organisations. Meanwhile, the Greens have successfully run Baden-Württemberg, Germany’s third largest state, since 2011, where self-confessed ‘green conservative’ Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister-President, has fought against tax increases and in favour of pro-market policies. The proud diesel-driving Catholic also takes a tough line on migrant gangs, arguing that ‘the most dangerous thing that human evolution has produced is hordes of young men’. Kretschmann was re-elected earlier this year on an increased majority.

    The appeal of the German Greens lies in their centrism. Both Baerbock and Habeck have relentlessly stressed the party’s status as a Bündnispartei — a coalition party willing to work with anyone in order to get things done. Its ecological politics are broad and popular: promoting renewables, protecting the environment and promising new green jobs. But it opposes Nord Stream 2, Merkel’s dream of an oil pipeline flowing from Russia that many see as the cause of her ambivalence towards Putin. Berlin’s western allies would be only too happy to see the Kremlin’s crude tentacles cut back."


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-about-to-go-green

    Its worth remembering that the German Greens green ambitions are more moderate than Boris's Conservatives ones are.

    From what I've read the German Greens would be my second choice party as it stands (FDP first), but I don't think their voting system works via ranked voting.
    Boris is at serious reach of overreach on his green stuff.

    It's the most obvious vector upon which a threat to his right-flank could develop.
    I'm not convinced that's right.

    I think (and I believe you agree) that technology is the solution to green issues. Not abstinence, vegetarianism, or any other hair-shirt bullshit.

    In some ways I think the green stuff could be a big win for Boris in the same way as the vaccines were. Instead of backing hairshirt bollocks, by backing new clean technologies firm and hard in the same way as the vaccines were backed early - the UK could be at the forefront of economic development in this area.

    Plus in a decades time when Boris retires and the UK is already getting close to zero emissions what do the left have to say on the matter anymore? Smashing windows and protesting in London may seem clever to them and offputting to everyone else while they're able to claim there's an "emergency", but to do so once the UK has already firmly and irreversibly sorted out its own backyard its going to look as stupid as the Zero Covidiots like that female Scottish scientist and "independent SAGE" do now.
    Yes, I agree with that - if technology can make the changes *without* impinging on people's lifestyles or reducing their quality of living, then yes.

    However, sadly, I don't always hear Conservatives at ministerial level making that argument.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,632
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    The depressing bit though is that, as discussed heavily on this site over the last few days, it’s hard to imagine any Labour MP in Parliament doing a lot better.
    *faint despairing voice*

    Yvette Cooper?

    Probably too Remainery

    They need a virile, patriotic Brexiteer - or at least someone more ambiguous on Brexit than Starmer.

    Or they just accept that they are headed for another defeat, probably, and Starmer is the stoical Michael Howard who will take the punishment, absorb the blows, rebuild the party, and cue them up for victory in 2027-28. And in the meantime FFS find some good young leadership candidates. There must be SOME
    The way things are going we could be looking at a coronation for Burnham as next leader to be honest.

    I've just bunged a few quid in that direction.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085
    edited May 10
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    Brutalism seems to work with the Barbican.
    Brutalism can work - as an isolated one-off diluted by quality neighbours. An entire city or district built in the style would be horrifically dystopian. But as a singular, bracing wall of aggressive concrete and glass, it can be exhilarating, if it is contrasted with softer, kinder, older elements

    So it works occasionally in London, because London is huge and pretty well preserved. The Barbican (for all its continuing flaws, like access) is effective because it is surrounded by the lovely dense historic streetscapes of the City, Smithfield, Farringdon.

    The National Theatre works because it is just one striking building on the South Bank.

    But we don't want any more of it. It is commonly hideous and very easy to get horribly wrong
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,578

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    The depressing bit though is that, as discussed heavily on this site over the last few days, it’s hard to imagine any Labour MP in Parliament doing a lot better.
    Andy Burnham would but he is not an MP

    SKS has really fooked it up hasnt he
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,507

    I think the German Greens are well to the Left of where I'd be comfortable with but I think their success on the basis that the 'realist' wing now dominates, and they've shown that in coalition for a number of years:

    "The Green party in Germany is not the socialist project of Extinction Rebellion. In many ways, it is further to the right than the British Conservatives. In November, the party launched a ‘zero tolerance’ plan to tackle Muslim extremism, calling for a boost to police powers and a ban on Salafi organisations. Meanwhile, the Greens have successfully run Baden-Württemberg, Germany’s third largest state, since 2011, where self-confessed ‘green conservative’ Winfried Kretschmann, the Minister-President, has fought against tax increases and in favour of pro-market policies. The proud diesel-driving Catholic also takes a tough line on migrant gangs, arguing that ‘the most dangerous thing that human evolution has produced is hordes of young men’. Kretschmann was re-elected earlier this year on an increased majority.

    The appeal of the German Greens lies in their centrism. Both Baerbock and Habeck have relentlessly stressed the party’s status as a Bündnispartei — a coalition party willing to work with anyone in order to get things done. Its ecological politics are broad and popular: promoting renewables, protecting the environment and promising new green jobs. But it opposes Nord Stream 2, Merkel’s dream of an oil pipeline flowing from Russia that many see as the cause of her ambivalence towards Putin. Berlin’s western allies would be only too happy to see the Kremlin’s crude tentacles cut back."


    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-about-to-go-green

    Its worth remembering that the German Greens green ambitions are more moderate than Boris's Conservatives ones are.

    From what I've read the German Greens would be my second choice party as it stands (FDP first), but I don't think their voting system works via ranked voting.
    Boris is at serious reach of overreach on his green stuff.

    It's the most obvious vector upon which a threat to his right-flank could develop.
    I think the Tories have just made a (logical) bet that a mix of technology and behavioural changes people want to make anyway will get us there with limited pain. That being the case, we might as well be first mover and try and crack some of the technologies.

    That’s why I’m behind it anyway.
    People will go for it if it makes their lives better, and only if it makes their lives better

    If it costs them a lot of money or sacrifices, involving things like rationing or holiday restrictions, then they will tell the Government to piss off.
    Absolutely agreed - and it should be scientifically possible.

    This needs to be the next decades equivalent to the vaccine taskforce. Get the science and technology out there to get us out of this - without people needing to make hard choices or sacrifices in the future. No future lockdowns to save the environment, just a jab of clean energy to make the problem go away.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,503
    edited May 10
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    The original, almost certainly unrealistic, budgeted cost of Holyrood was £40m. Donald Dewar (unionist) was responsible for the original estimate and subsequent budgetary control. Only when George Reid (national) was in charge of the budget, and threatened to pull the plug on the whole project, were costs finally under control and the building finally finished. Yet another example of why Scotland will be run better by nationalists than by useless unionists. Incidentally, as a Scottish Nationalist, I am proud of the Parliament building in a way that I could never be proud of the Colonial Monstrosity in Westminster.

    Because, as we all know. the Scots were deeply squeamish about colonialism and preferred to stay home rather than get involved with the British Empire, in any way
    The Scots that were involved with the British Empire, slavers, tobacco barons, etc, would have identified as British. Their successors are the likes of Alister Jack and Gordon Brown. Not Scots.
    If anyone was left wondering just how delusional the SNP and other nationalists can get...
    Talk about burying your head in your sand over history.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,632

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    The depressing bit though is that, as discussed heavily on this site over the last few days, it’s hard to imagine any Labour MP in Parliament doing a lot better.
    Andy Burnham would but he is not an MP

    SKS has really fooked it up hasnt he
    "he is not an MP"

    A minor detail that can be worked around.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 570
    Some of the polling questions are always going to favour a PM who by dint of that role will score higher but really on the telling the truth question it really does make one wonder wtf has happened to much of the public .
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,632
    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1m
    Most of the British media and political class mocked Labour members when they waved Palestine flags at party conference. Worse still some imputed that was racist.

    They don’t care less about what is happening tonight.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,578
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    To unite the threads of architecture and Germany, see this

    The Germans have simply abandoned the attempt to make attractive modernist town centres, realising we are somehow incapable. Instead they are now rebuilding entire medieval town centres, brick for brick, from scratch - the ones the RAF flattened. Frankfurt is an example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dom-Römer_Project


    We should do exactly the same in the UK. I can think of a dozen cities/disrricts, off the bat, which would benefit enormously from such a scheme. Coventry, Exeter, Northampton, maybe Brum, Swansea, Plymouth, Derby, Clydebank, do it.

    Architects will shriek and howl and moan about "pastiche" but given that they are congenitally unable to design anything better they can fuck off

    Some of Bath too. It got the Baedeker treatment. And Portsmouth, especially the area to the south and east of the nasval dockyard. Hell, even Plymouth naval base could do with the restoration of the residential terrace - the south part is in part a mess from hasty wastime/postwar expansion over blitzed areas.

    Haven't the Germans been doing it for some time? Or am I thinking of the Poles and Warsaw? But it's a nice approach.
    The Poles have certainly been doing it for decades, to great success, also the Baltics, maybe Czechia?

    We also do it in a quiet way. Half of the Nash Terraces were rebuilt from scratch after the war - unbelievably, there was a Labour Party plan to demolish them all - Churchill supposedly intervened.

    They are still being rebuilt now, half of Park Crescent was torn down and replaced - identically - in the last few years

    To my mind the Nash Terraces constitute the most beautiful ensemble of urban domestic architecture in the world. They are certainly successful, and desirable. You can buy a whole one for £185 million

    https://luxurylondon.co.uk/house/property/john-nash-terrace-regents-park

    But we don't have to do lavish - just do it like Frankfurt. They rebuilt an entire "old town" city centre for £180m. We should deffo copy
    That reminds me, Bristol/Clifton had some proper rebuilding too. Especially along Park Street. The University hall was rebuilt IIRC. I had reason to look into the area a few years back and was surprised how much rebuilding as before - at least externally - there had been.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,382

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    isam said:



    Today’s Redfield & Wilton



    Leader Ratings
    Boris 48/31
    Sir Keir 26/33

    More people think Boris tells the truth???? This is so over.
    The first five question are devastating for Starmer.

    "Stands up for the interests of the UK" - 52% over 25%. More than two to one

    "Can build a strong economy" - 50% over 25%. Two to one

    For the first time, I wonder if Sir Kir Royale can survive til the next GE
    The depressing bit though is that, as discussed heavily on this site over the last few days, it’s hard to imagine any Labour MP in Parliament doing a lot better.
    *faint despairing voice*

    Yvette Cooper?

    Probably too Remainery

    They need a virile, patriotic Brexiteer - or at least someone more ambiguous on Brexit than Starmer.

    Or they just accept that they are headed for another defeat, probably, and Starmer is the stoical Michael Howard who will take the punishment, absorb the blows, rebuild the party, and cue them up for victory in 2027-28. And in the meantime FFS find some good young leadership candidates. There must be SOME
    The way things are going we could be looking at a coronation for Burnham as next leader to be honest.

    I've just bunged a few quid in that direction.
    That would upset Sadiq
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,888

    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1m
    Most of the British media and political class mocked Labour members when they waved Palestine flags at party conference. Worse still some imputed that was racist.

    They don’t care less about what is happening tonight.

    It's just weird man — I don't understand why the left is so obsessed with Palestine
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,085

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    The Scottish Parliament featured in a Channel 4 TV series about buildings the public wanted demolished

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_(TV_series)

    Most of the buildings have now been demolished or refurbed but not Holyrood

    Fascinating list. I agree with the public in every case

    The only one I might have saved is that car park in Newcastle. Sometimes Brutalism can work, and be exhilarating in its monstrous and insulting ugliness.

    Trouble is, it should be on some industrial estate or in Thames dockyards, not in the middle of a rather noble city like Newcastle (which, unlike too many British cities, has a coherent and sometimes handsome architectural plan)


    Also the supermarket. I like that. But I see it has been kept. Good
    Brutalism seems to work with the Barbican.
    Actually I agree there. While having qualified opinions about a number of similar buildings, there is something about that whole development that is more relatable than many similar ones.
    The Barbican arboretum is incredible. So few people know about it. I was once photographed nude there, with a young female model. True story.

    She got a bit narked and demanded more money when they told her it was Full Nudity, and she got the pay rise. I humbly went along

    https://secretldn.com/barbican-conservatory-rainforest/
This discussion has been closed.