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It looks like there’ll be more celebrations like this over the next three days – politicalbetting.co

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  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    @MehreenKhn
    Die Welt reports that France is holding up the EU signing a contract for 1.8bn Pfizer vaccines (announced ~two weeks ago) because it wants guarantees more of those vaccines will be produced in France


    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1390615510505689092
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,446
    edited May 2021
    UK clearly expecting big deliveries of Pfizer / Moderna as JVT said no delay to getting these rather than AZN for under 30s. From what JVT just said it doesn't sound like many under 40s will be getting AZN.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,338

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    There isn't one. You are looking in vain!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,914

    ping said:

    Disaster for Labour.

    I quite like Starmer, but something has to change.

    I MAY need to change my Avatar before the weekend...
    Or you're going to have to design Starmer one of your Corbyn style bar charts.
    You might want to change yours Philip. You often claim not to be of the extreme right, but your avatar looks like something Tommy Robinson might have as a tattoo!
    I don't have any tattoos but if you think that it says more about you than it does me. When I changed it many people here across the political spectrum said they liked it.
    I thought I was being nice to you there Philip! OK, so in more detail, historically skulls are associated with the far right. The Nazis referred to them as "Totenkopf" (think I have spelt that correctly) or "death's head", and it was most notably used as insignia for the SS. It is also favoured by white supremacists. Skinheads often use skulls as "cool" insignia and I think they are also used by Combat 18. Obviously if you are comfortable with those associations....
    Bloody far right pirates. Totenkopf isn't the sole preserve of the far right, nor Nazi's. Unless the No. 100 RAF Squadron isn't telling us something.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf#:~:text=The Italian elite storm-troopers,death's head emblem in 1917.
    The swastika was also appropriated by the Nazis. Perhaps he could use that motif too then?
    The swastika wasn't used in our culture before the Nazi's appropriated it. As explained to you, the skull and crossbones was, and continues, to be used completely separately to any Nazi affiliation. Unless of course you're currently upset by marauding Nazi pirates on the high-seas.

    The Nazi's used all sorts of emblems and imagery. Presumably the U.S.A. should cease using any eagle motif? Or the current day Luftwaffe should cease using the Iron Cross emblem? Perhaps Mercedes and BMW should re-brand - after all their insignia was adorned on Nazi-used kit.
    Actually I've seen a few uses of the swastika in the Western world, pre-Nazi

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_use_of_the_swastika_in_the_early_20th_century

    seems a reasonably summary.

    The short version - the archeological/historicity around the Indo-Europeans made it popular again - though there was a fair bit of usage pre 20th cent in Europe. The Nazi's grabbed it.....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,758



    I never said that. I said taking the knee is not necessary. You can say its not acceptable without taking the knee.

    Nobody is making you do it. What's your objection to anyone else doing it?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,446

    @MehreenKhn
    Die Welt reports that France is holding up the EU signing a contract for 1.8bn Pfizer vaccines (announced ~two weeks ago) because it wants guarantees more of those vaccines will be produced in France


    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1390615510505689092

    No rush....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,897

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    I think this country had tremendous success in becoming socially more progressive in the last 20 years and by and large brought people along with it (yes there are always people dragging their knuckles but that happens in any society). I think it shows that people are willing to be educated and become more enlightened on social topics - in my experience people generally aren’t horrible and like to help and understand others.

    Personally I think the objections to the woke narrative in the past few years has less to do with the actual principles that people are espousing, it’s more to do with the way these things are presented as if people need to self-flagellate or atone for their behaviours. It’s much easier to get people to get on board with things if you’re not implicitly or explicitly going on the attack about their “privilege”.
    There has been much progress but it hasn't happened without strife or unopposed. Eroding deeply embedded prejudices and assumptions is not an easy thing to do. There are bound to be excesses and missteps - and there are - but for me that's the bathwater not the baby. I see much truth in a concept such as white privilege without feeling I have to take on a deep sense of personal guilt for being white. My guilt, such as it is, comes from spending years in investment banking.
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,897
    edited May 2021
    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    While we are all busy writing the obituaries for Labour, I would be fascinated to see the comment thread following the 2005 Tory GE election defeat (did PB exist then - are the threads archived anywhere?).

    The rest of the month's headers don't display much in the way of political obituaries (other than Michael Howard's)...

    WOULD CHOOSING CLARKE BE THE TORIES’ “CLAUSE 4” MOMENT?

    YOUGOV: UK OPPOSITION TO EU CONSTITUTION GROWING

    COULD THIS MAN BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

    WILL DAVID DAVIS BE REWARDED FOR HIS FORBEARANCE IN 2003?

    WHEN WILL TONY BLAIR GO?
    Hmm, I'm clearly wrong about similar hand-wringing on here back then, aren't I? The comments I've tracked down actually stand up quite well to what happened. Maybe I should head off and put some bets on the demise of Labour :wink:

    I do remember* newspaper/magazine articles sometime around that era (maybe it was more IDS era) suggesting that the Tories were finished as a political force because they were so culturally out of step with modern Britain and that the Lib Dems could become the main opposition.

    *I think. Was I dreaming?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,568

    @MehreenKhn
    Die Welt reports that France is holding up the EU signing a contract for 1.8bn Pfizer vaccines (announced ~two weeks ago) because it wants guarantees more of those vaccines will be produced in France


    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1390615510505689092

    Is it just me or are the French difficult with just about everything? ;)
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,681
    Clwyd South looks as a Labour hold.
    Conservative more positive about Wrexham and Vale of Clwyd.

    Labour reported to be bullish about gaining the Rhondda
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,345
    Scott_xP said:

    Rumours that Plaid may hold the balance of power in Wales.

    Another nail in the Union coffin...

    Utter and complete rubbish

    Plaid may join labour in coalition but it will not lead to independence

    I live in Wales remember, and unlike you, I do know Welsh politics
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210
    Conor Matchett
    @conor_matchett
    ·
    2m
    Very early days and a long, long way to go, but Alba "bombing" so far according to an
    @theSNP
    source in Edinburgh.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,446
    GIN1138 said:

    @MehreenKhn
    Die Welt reports that France is holding up the EU signing a contract for 1.8bn Pfizer vaccines (announced ~two weeks ago) because it wants guarantees more of those vaccines will be produced in France


    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1390615510505689092

    Is it just me or are the French difficult with just about everything? ;)
    If they don't get their way, they will go on strike....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685
    edited May 2021

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 31,914
    GIN1138 said:

    @MehreenKhn
    Die Welt reports that France is holding up the EU signing a contract for 1.8bn Pfizer vaccines (announced ~two weeks ago) because it wants guarantees more of those vaccines will be produced in France


    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1390615510505689092

    Is it just me or are the French difficult with just about everything? ;)
    They have the attitude we should have had in Europe - "This is what I want", rather than "What can I give away in return for semi-mythical brownie-points"

    If we had behaved as the French do towards the EI, the referendum would have been won.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Scott_xP said:

    Rumours that Plaid may hold the balance of power in Wales.

    Another nail in the Union coffin...

    Utter and complete rubbish

    Plaid may join labour in coalition but it will not lead to independence

    I live in Wales remember, and unlike you, I do know Welsh politics
    Just remember that EVERYTHING Scott posts has to be seen through the prism of the world's biggest hissy fit over Brexit
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    SNP confident of winning Edinburgh Central from the Tories, which would result in Angus Robertson's election #ElectionResults2021
    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1390621413984411649

    Is he #TeamNicola or #TeamAlex ?
    Team Nicola in quite a definitive way.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 21,868
    0

    Hypetrain rolls on

    Peter Davidson
    @Peter_Davidson1
    ·
    32m
    Scots Tory sources saying Banffshire and Buchan Coast could be "quite close". The SNP have a 6,683 majority in the seat.

    Karen Adam (SNP) up against Mark Findlater (Tory).

    Should the Tories take the seat, they will lose a list seat back to the SNP. So a net gain of zero.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    @MehreenKhn
    Die Welt reports that France is holding up the EU signing a contract for 1.8bn Pfizer vaccines (announced ~two weeks ago) because it wants guarantees more of those vaccines will be produced in France


    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1390615510505689092

    Meanwhile, UK and Swiss pharma are quietly chuckling and getting on with massive capacity increases.

    If it wasn’t that millions of people are dying during a global pandemic, it would be just another case of the French being hilariously French.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164
    Cornwall: LAB gain Falmouth Arwenack from CON, and Falmouth Penwerris from LDEM.
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1390623341250240512
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited May 2021
    Selebian said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    While we are all busy writing the obituaries for Labour, I would be fascinated to see the comment thread following the 2005 Tory GE election defeat (did PB exist then - are the threads archived anywhere?).

    The rest of the month's headers don't display much in the way of political obituaries (other than Michael Howard's)...

    WOULD CHOOSING CLARKE BE THE TORIES’ “CLAUSE 4” MOMENT?

    YOUGOV: UK OPPOSITION TO EU CONSTITUTION GROWING

    COULD THIS MAN BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

    WILL DAVID DAVIS BE REWARDED FOR HIS FORBEARANCE IN 2003?

    WHEN WILL TONY BLAIR GO?
    Hmm, I'm clearly wrong about similar hand-wringing on here back then, aren't I? The comments I've tracked down actually stand up quite well to what happened. Maybe I should head off and put some bets on the demise of Labour :wink:

    I do remember* newspaper/magazine articles sometime around that era (maybe it was more IDS era) suggesting that the Tories were finished as a political force because they were so culturally out of step with modern Britain and that the Lib Dems could become the main opposition.

    *I think. Was I dreaming?
    You’re not wrong. I recall a lot of “strange death of Tory England” stuff in the papers. And then they elected Cameron.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164
    Alistair said:

    Team Nicola in quite a definitive way.

    Which is interesting given the backstory
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,251

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    I do wonder if those who say they could never vote for someone because of how they eat their sandwich or whether they kneel down in a photo were perhaps never going to vote for them anyway.....
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,568
    Scott_xP said:

    Cornwall: LAB gain Falmouth Arwenack from CON, and Falmouth Penwerris from LDEM.
    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1390623341250240512

    Oh, looks who’s woke up. Bad night old son ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    Cambridgeshire: LDEM gain Duxford and Ely North from CON.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    You've still yet to explain what part of taking the knee you find so objectionable. Why on earth do you care?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,338

    ping said:

    Disaster for Labour.

    I quite like Starmer, but something has to change.

    I MAY need to change my Avatar before the weekend...
    Or you're going to have to design Starmer one of your Corbyn style bar charts.
    You might want to change yours Philip. You often claim not to be of the extreme right, but your avatar looks like something Tommy Robinson might have as a tattoo!
    I don't have any tattoos but if you think that it says more about you than it does me. When I changed it many people here across the political spectrum said they liked it.
    I thought I was being nice to you there Philip! OK, so in more detail, historically skulls are associated with the far right. The Nazis referred to them as "Totenkopf" (think I have spelt that correctly) or "death's head", and it was most notably used as insignia for the SS. It is also favoured by white supremacists. Skinheads often use skulls as "cool" insignia and I think they are also used by Combat 18. Obviously if you are comfortable with those associations....
    Bloody far right pirates. Totenkopf isn't the sole preserve of the far right, nor Nazi's. Unless the No. 100 RAF Squadron isn't telling us something.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totenkopf#:~:text=The Italian elite storm-troopers,death's head emblem in 1917.
    The swastika was also appropriated by the Nazis. Perhaps he could use that motif too then?
    Which one?

    My wife was a bit startled when some new neighbours painted this on their door step -

    image
    Indeed, you are making the point for me. I am not sure that even that version might be sensible for a right wing poster to have as their motif. Or perhaps you disagree?
    You might find that trying to associate that version of the swastika with the Nazis would land you in a place of wo(k)e
    I think you might be overanalysing. I was taking the piss. Your desire to defend Philip is, well, interesting if you feel aligned to his views.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,345
    Floater said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rumours that Plaid may hold the balance of power in Wales.

    Another nail in the Union coffin...

    Utter and complete rubbish

    Plaid may join labour in coalition but it will not lead to independence

    I live in Wales remember, and unlike you, I do know Welsh politics
    Just remember that EVERYTHING Scott posts has to be seen through the prism of the world's biggest hissy fit over Brexit
    Indeed and he is so tedious
  • ridaligoridaligo Posts: 174

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Thanks, Nigel, but I'm fully aware of the theories behind this ... but that's all they are: theories. I'm not convinced by the "evidence" because I haven't seen the impact on business results measured objectively. As you are in HR, you won't be exposed to the resentment that the organization feels about this because people know to keep their mouths shut or answer "climate" surveys in the right way. I witness it on a daily basis; people are increasingly scared to speak up for fear of saying the wrong thing or they speak up with bland platitudes, which is the exact opposite of a culture that fosters innovation.

    I know we'll disagree on this topic and I know my point of view is not fashionable in the corporate world right now but this is politics and not scientific fact so I'm allowed to disagree, especially when I see the impact in the workplace.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    I recall our in-house polling gnu, after in depth analysis of polling both latest and in 2016/7, predicting Labour gains from the LibDems. So far at least, we're seeing the very opposite.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,568
    IanB2 said:

    Cambridgeshire: LDEM gain Duxford and Ely North from CON.

    LIB DEMS WINNING HERE :D
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 6,735

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1390591421044887553

    Latest from Sir John Curtice: In places last contested in 2016, there is a swing of 10 points from Labour to Tory in places where relatively large numbers of people have no qualifications, whereas there is a slight swing to Labour in places with a large number of graduates.

    Interesting. I know it is a non-PC thing to say but it infers susceptibility to Boris Johnson's message is proportionate to the lack of education of the overall electorate. Combine this with the more educated folk that would never vote Labour (particularly the more prosperous) and it is a cynical but winning formula.
    The big tell for me is London.

    People talk about London being a near-impregnable Labour fortress, an island whose voting behaviour doesn't influence anywhere else. As if everyone who works in London, lives in London, stays in London, has no family or friends outside London.

    This is self-evidently bollocks.

    What is really apparent round here is that it's the places with the closest ties to London that are moving away from the Tories. Put simply, people move out from London to Oxford, and from Oxford to the villages - or directly from London to the villages. But they don't start voting Tory now that they own a house in the country. They vote Labour, LibDem or Green, just as they would have done in London.

    And that's only increasing. The massive new estates round here are essentially Oxford overspill. They are not going to be full of Tory voters.

    Yes, we are seeing a massive realignment at the moment, but it's not just a one-way movement of the supposed Red Wall from Labour to Conservative, and I think we'll see more signs of that over the weekend.
    Which is fine but it doesn't solve Labours problem - which is they are losing 100s of seats up North while gaining a few 10s of seats further South.
    Agree. This issue really needs a lot of attention. As a non expert it seems to me that there are far more 'ordinary people' seats than suburban/rural seats that could go Labour under the London/urban influence.

    Accepting that Labour are impregnable in super urban, BAME and posh Guardianista seats (all mixtures thereof of course), which, axiomatically cannot be more than the about 200 they currently hold, are there enough 'Labour realignment' seats to get close to a majority? I don't think there are enough in their top 100 target seats, which include few in the London overspill area.

    And, crucially, judging from their demeanour this morning, I don't think Labour think that their realignment plan to win Hertfordshire and Surrey and Oxfordshire etc will be enough. They sound like a party whose centrist policies have been nicked, whose leftish policies have been rejected and who don't have an election strategy.

    The election strategy, at this moment, simply has to be to wait until the Tories start pissing people off, which will happen eventually.

    You can't win against a platform that promises all things to all people and has the money tap gushing.
    It may be a bit of a wait. Labour never defeated Mrs T, and the Tories never defeated TB. But anyway, the strategy for majority government needs at least three more things: the possibility of making a better offer than the Tories, a better leader than the Tories put up and a list of at least 125 seats they have a strategy to win that they don't already hold.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,999

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    While we are all busy writing the obituaries for Labour, I would be fascinated to see the comment thread following the 2005 Tory GE election defeat (did PB exist then - are the threads archived anywhere?).

    COULD THIS MAN BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

    Was that a certain B Obama? I seem to remember people mentioning him once.
    Indeed.
    One or two PBers made a few coppers on that election.
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    You've still yet to explain what part of taking the knee you find so objectionable. Why on earth do you care?
    I don't think it's objectionable - just incredibly misguided for SKS to do it - particularly in such a staged way.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,939

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    Ifs what happens if you don't take the knee that is the problem. If you don't you are attacked..
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,338
    Floater said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rumours that Plaid may hold the balance of power in Wales.

    Another nail in the Union coffin...

    Utter and complete rubbish

    Plaid may join labour in coalition but it will not lead to independence

    I live in Wales remember, and unlike you, I do know Welsh politics
    Just remember that EVERYTHING Scott posts has to be seen through the prism of the world's biggest hissy fit over Brexit
    Possibly, or it could just be he doesn't like Boris Johnson. That is quite normal in politics. Maybe you are a Boris fanbois? I haven't seen any evidence of your views "floating", so I guess your nom de plume is ironic.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164
    Taz said:

    Oh, looks who’s woke up. Bad night old son ?

    Busy morning. Lots to do...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,446
    edited May 2021
    Labour will be back at some point...the Tories eventually worked out what platform they needed and Labour ran out of road...it will happen to the Tories...put down the twatter machine would be my advice.

    The advantage the Tories do have is a clear number of Boris replacements.that would probably help their electoral chances eg. Dishy Rishi could win over more ethnic minority vote as well as middle class pro business types.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 46,999
    Dura_Ace said:



    I never said that. I said taking the knee is not necessary. You can say its not acceptable without taking the knee.

    Nobody is making you do it. What's your objection to anyone else doing it?
    Be kind.
    Some folks are triggered by it.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,939

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    Ifs what happens if you don't take the knee that is the problem. If you don't you are attacked..
    Id est.if you are not with us you are against us.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1390591421044887553

    Latest from Sir John Curtice: In places last contested in 2016, there is a swing of 10 points from Labour to Tory in places where relatively large numbers of people have no qualifications, whereas there is a slight swing to Labour in places with a large number of graduates.

    Interesting. I know it is a non-PC thing to say but it infers susceptibility to Boris Johnson's message is proportionate to the lack of education of the overall electorate. Combine this with the more educated folk that would never vote Labour (particularly the more prosperous) and it is a cynical but winning formula.
    The big tell for me is London.

    People talk about London being a near-impregnable Labour fortress, an island whose voting behaviour doesn't influence anywhere else. As if everyone who works in London, lives in London, stays in London, has no family or friends outside London.

    This is self-evidently bollocks.

    What is really apparent round here is that it's the places with the closest ties to London that are moving away from the Tories. Put simply, people move out from London to Oxford, and from Oxford to the villages - or directly from London to the villages. But they don't start voting Tory now that they own a house in the country. They vote Labour, LibDem or Green, just as they would have done in London.

    And that's only increasing. The massive new estates round here are essentially Oxford overspill. They are not going to be full of Tory voters.

    Yes, we are seeing a massive realignment at the moment, but it's not just a one-way movement of the supposed Red Wall from Labour to Conservative, and I think we'll see more signs of that over the weekend.
    Which is fine but it doesn't solve Labours problem - which is they are losing 100s of seats up North while gaining a few 10s of seats further South.
    Agree. This issue really needs a lot of attention. As a non expert it seems to me that there are far more 'ordinary people' seats than suburban/rural seats that could go Labour under the London/urban influence.

    Accepting that Labour are impregnable in super urban, BAME and posh Guardianista seats (all mixtures thereof of course), which, axiomatically cannot be more than the about 200 they currently hold, are there enough 'Labour realignment' seats to get close to a majority? I don't think there are enough in their top 100 target seats, which include few in the London overspill area.

    And, crucially, judging from their demeanour this morning, I don't think Labour think that their realignment plan to win Hertfordshire and Surrey and Oxfordshire etc will be enough. They sound like a party whose centrist policies have been nicked, whose leftish policies have been rejected and who don't have an election strategy.

    The election strategy, at this moment, simply has to be to wait until the Tories start pissing people off, which will happen eventually.

    You can't win against a platform that promises all things to all people and has the money tap gushing.
    It may be a bit of a wait. Labour never defeated Mrs T, and the Tories never defeated TB. But anyway, the strategy for majority government needs at least three more things: the possibility of making a better offer than the Tories, a better leader than the Tories put up and a list of at least 125 seats they have a strategy to win that they don't already hold.

    Of course it will be a bit of a wait 10+ years perhaps.

    The fact is that Labour cannot outspend this government, not can they promise a better future, because that's what the Government is doing.

    They have to wait until voters decide the Government is not offering a better future. Otherwise it's "better future is promised under HMG" or "maybe a better future under Labour" as per now.
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    Ifs what happens if you don't take the knee that is the problem. If you don't you are attacked..
    Being attacked by the shrieking bubble isn't a problem its a bonus.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,568
    Lab hold wingate in Durham. Large, but reduced, majority.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited May 2021
    IanB2 said:

    I recall our in-house polling gnu, after in depth analysis of polling both latest and in 2016/7, predicting Labour gains from the LibDems. So far at least, we're seeing the very opposite.

    In the leafy shires and the home counties, areas that are going to have help bankroll the tories' love affair with the red wall, there is more disquiet.

    The tories may win Hartlepool. But they could easily lose Esher & Walton, say, to the libs.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    Ifs what happens if you don't take the knee that is the problem. If you don't you are attacked..
    Id est.if you are not with us you are against us.
    Says the guy literally attacking a man for taking the knee.

    Can you not see your hypocrisy?
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,568
    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Oh, looks who’s woke up. Bad night old son ?

    Busy morning. Lots to do...
    Weekend starts now 👍 as long as the weather holds 🤞
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210
    Conor Matchett
    @conor_matchett
    ·
    1h
    Tory source suggesting lots of tactical voting in the constituencies from their voters.

    Suggesting that in seats Tories aren't challenging, voters have backed the best placed candidate to "oust the SNP".
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685
    edited May 2021

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    You've still yet to explain what part of taking the knee you find so objectionable. Why on earth do you care?
    I don't think it's objectionable - just incredibly misguided for SKS to do it - particularly in such a staged way.
    But why? I personally am happy SKS expressed his opposition to the killing of black men by US cops during a seismic cultural moment in the west, in whatever way he expressed it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,568
    What’s clear in Durham is swings against labour but not wild ones and not the trouncing in others areas. The independents have won their targets so far.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,251

    Endillion said:

    kinabalu said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Excellent post, Nigel. There are valid concerns about woke but my strong sense of the more ardent antiwokerati is they are a motley mix of the plain ignorant and those more knowing who are eminently comfortable with the old hierarchies and affronted by them being challenged.
    It's a definition problem. The right of centre defines "woke" as over-obsession with D&I to the exclusion of almost everything else. Whether this is the intended usage by its proponents is a separate question, but hopefully it is clear that, based on the definition above, wokeness is necessarily bad.

    I'm totally bought into the principles of inclusivity (indeed, how can anyone reasonably object?) but current corporate attitudes go way beyond what can possibly be considered reasonable. And it's impossible to tell how many people secretly dislike it because everyone's terrified of being branded a bigot and having their career severely limited as a result.
    Only one out of Starmer and Boris published a photo of them taking the knee in their office.

    When Raab said he wouldn't he was "ridiculed"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-take-knee-game-thrones-black-lives-matter-a9573141.html

    "Dominic Raab ridiculed for claiming taking a knee comes from Game of Thrones
    Foreign secretary says he only kneels for ‘the Queen and the missus when I asked her to marry me’"

    Who looks ridiculous this morning ? Not Raab.
    I still think Raab looks ridiculous to be honest
    Well I do not. There is too much woke shite and it needs standing up to......
    I personally think it's ridiculous to oppose the killing of black men by US cops purely for "culture war" reasons, but hey, justify it however you like. "Woke shite" indeed.
    indeed but is the best response:

    a) Make a speech condemning the act and suggesting policies to enhance policing in the Uk

    b) Take a picture in your own office doing an air guitar version of Colin Kaepernick ..

    They are both good responses. However you can do (a) without pissing on (b).
    Starmer did "just b"

    Or certainly thats the bit people remember
    Yeah exactly. So what?

    Mocking Starmer for doing (b) makes you look petty and ridiculous.
    I'm not running for office - the voters have seen SKS is all hat and no cattle.
    I'm failing to see your point here.
    The point is the voters remembered the empty gesture and noted that SKS had nothing else to offer other than wishing to be seen signalling but not contributing.
    You're scraping the barrel here.

    SKS voicing his opposition by "taking the knee" has the same effectiveness of Raab voicing his opposition without taking the knee — i.e. none. It's simply a show of support.

    Whether or not SKS is any good is another question, but him "taking the knee" has nothing to do with it.
    It's the iconic moment of his tenure so far. The bacon sandwich memory.
    Ifs what happens if you don't take the knee that is the problem. If you don't you are attacked..
    Really? Did Sturgeon take the knee? Did Davey? I have no idea but doubt they did and doubt even more that they get attacked for not taking it?

    Whereas every week people on here will moan about those taking the knee. You have it the wrong way around.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    0

    Hypetrain rolls on

    Peter Davidson
    @Peter_Davidson1
    ·
    32m
    Scots Tory sources saying Banffshire and Buchan Coast could be "quite close". The SNP have a 6,683 majority in the seat.

    Karen Adam (SNP) up against Mark Findlater (Tory).

    Should the Tories take the seat, they will lose a list seat back to the SNP. So a net gain of zero.
    That's not how it works. They currently have the seat but based on 2016 if they had lost it to the SNP then the Tories would have gained a list seat instead of the Greens due to overhang.

    So if the SNP had held it in 2016 the change in MSPs would have been
    +1 SNP
    Tory No change
    Green -1

    AMS is stupid.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164

    Of course it will be a bit of a wait 10+ years perhaps.

    Or really quick.

    Everything is entirely masked by Covid. That won't last until the next election.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    IanB2 said:

    I recall our in-house polling gnu, after in depth analysis of polling both latest and in 2016/7, predicting Labour gains from the LibDems. So far at least, we're seeing the very opposite.

    He won't be making out like a wildebeest if he's been being on that basis.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Rumours that Plaid may hold the balance of power in Wales.

    Another nail in the Union coffin...

    Utter and complete rubbish

    Plaid may join labour in coalition but it will not lead to independence

    I live in Wales remember, and unlike you, I do know Welsh politics
    Just remember that EVERYTHING Scott posts has to be seen through the prism of the world's biggest hissy fit over Brexit
    Possibly, or it could just be he doesn't like Boris Johnson. That is quite normal in politics. Maybe you are a Boris fanbois? I haven't seen any evidence of your views "floating", so I guess your nom de plume is ironic.
    Feel free to show one of my Boris fanboy comments

    Take your time
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    Conor Matchett
    @conor_matchett
    ·
    1h
    Tory source suggesting lots of tactical voting in the constituencies from their voters.

    Suggesting that in seats Tories aren't challenging, voters have backed the best placed candidate to "oust the SNP".

    So, basically, with a very high turnout, no one has a clue what the end result in Scotland is going to look like...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 43,306
    @josh_wingrove
    Biden touts his Buy American plans: "Every single thing, from the deck of an aircraft carrier to the railing of a new building, is going to be built by an American company, American workers, American supply chain, so that we invest American tax dollars in American workers."


    https://twitter.com/josh_wingrove/status/1390371816263323653
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685
    edited May 2021

    Cookie said:

    While Labour councillors have been banging on about Free Palestine on the campaign trail...the government talking about the bins.

    A new battle plan will mean that every home in England will stick to the same system to recycle plastic, paper and other materials.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14875570/council-end-barmy-recycling-postcode-lottery

    I hear so much genuine anger that different areas do this differently. This is an anger I simply can't understand. It's the work of minutes to understand your own area's recycling system. Still, the government appears to be responding to a genuine demand here.
    The concern of course must be that this might result in a poorer service in some areas that currently have very good recycling systems.

    Currently Lincolnshire has a brilliant system. They have a single bin which takes just about everything that can possibly be recycled and then it is sorted by the private contractor (Mountain in our area). This makes recycling quick, easy and efficient and you really see a difference with very little going into the landfill bin.

    Across the border in Nottinghamshire they also have a single bin system but what you can recycle is severely limited. So no glass for example. Or tetrapacks. This means that my Mum saves all this stuff up and gives it to me to put in my recycling bin each time I see her.

    So if the rationalising means Lincolnshire end up with the Nottinghamshire system then that would be a very retrograde step.
    It's also quite a "Labour" policy isn't it, forcing everyone onto the lowest common denominator? I thought Tories were in support of local councils doing their own thing and innovation?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Cookie said:

    While Labour councillors have been banging on about Free Palestine on the campaign trail...the government talking about the bins.

    A new battle plan will mean that every home in England will stick to the same system to recycle plastic, paper and other materials.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14875570/council-end-barmy-recycling-postcode-lottery

    I hear so much genuine anger that different areas do this differently. This is an anger I simply can't understand. It's the work of minutes to understand your own area's recycling system. Still, the government appears to be responding to a genuine demand here.
    The concern of course must be that this might result in a poorer service in some areas that currently have very good recycling systems.

    Currently Lincolnshire has a brilliant system. They have a single bin which takes just about everything that can possibly be recycled and then it is sorted by the private contractor (Mountain in our area). This makes recycling quick, easy and efficient and you really see a difference with very little going into the landfill bin.

    Across the border in Nottinghamshire they also have a single bin system but what you can recycle is severely limited. So no glass for example. Or tetrapacks. This means that my Mum saves all this stuff up and gives it to me to put in my recycling bin each time I see her.

    So if the rationalising means Lincolnshire end up with the Nottinghamshire system then that would be a very retrograde step.
    Other councils have seven bins, and council ‘officers’ handing out £100 fines to those who don’t use them correctly.

    That’s the sort of thing the government are trying to stop.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596

    Cookie said:

    While Labour councillors have been banging on about Free Palestine on the campaign trail...the government talking about the bins.

    A new battle plan will mean that every home in England will stick to the same system to recycle plastic, paper and other materials.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14875570/council-end-barmy-recycling-postcode-lottery

    I hear so much genuine anger that different areas do this differently. This is an anger I simply can't understand. It's the work of minutes to understand your own area's recycling system. Still, the government appears to be responding to a genuine demand here.
    The concern of course must be that this might result in a poorer service in some areas that currently have very good recycling systems.

    Currently Lincolnshire has a brilliant system. They have a single bin which takes just about everything that can possibly be recycled and then it is sorted by the private contractor (Mountain in our area). This makes recycling quick, easy and efficient and you really see a difference with very little going into the landfill bin.

    Across the border in Nottinghamshire they also have a single bin system but what you can recycle is severely limited. So no glass for example. Or tetrapacks. This means that my Mum saves all this stuff up and gives it to me to put in my recycling bin each time I see her.

    So if the rationalising means Lincolnshire end up with the Nottinghamshire system then that would be a very retrograde step.
    Many of the differences are a result of the different contractors, the different collection vehicles, the different MRF processing plants, and different end customers that various councils have for their recycling collection, processing and disposal arrangements.

    Trying to harmonise all of these would incur significant transition costs, cut out smaller commercial operations in favour of the big companies, and risk losing some of the centres of excellence and innovation - all for a gain that isn't immediately apparent. The Tories would do better to try and recover their interest in localism rather than imposing this massive centralisation on a key aspect of local government.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,212

    Cookie said:

    While Labour councillors have been banging on about Free Palestine on the campaign trail...the government talking about the bins.

    A new battle plan will mean that every home in England will stick to the same system to recycle plastic, paper and other materials.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14875570/council-end-barmy-recycling-postcode-lottery

    I hear so much genuine anger that different areas do this differently. This is an anger I simply can't understand. It's the work of minutes to understand your own area's recycling system. Still, the government appears to be responding to a genuine demand here.
    The concern of course must be that this might result in a poorer service in some areas that currently have very good recycling systems.

    Currently Lincolnshire has a brilliant system. They have a single bin which takes just about everything that can possibly be recycled and then it is sorted by the private contractor (Mountain in our area). This makes recycling quick, easy and efficient and you really see a difference with very little going into the landfill bin.

    Across the border in Nottinghamshire they also have a single bin system but what you can recycle is severely limited. So no glass for example. Or tetrapacks. This means that my Mum saves all this stuff up and gives it to me to put in my recycling bin each time I see her.

    So if the rationalising means Lincolnshire end up with the Nottinghamshire system then that would be a very retrograde step.
    Lower-tier (district) councils basically only do two things of any significance: recycling and planning.

    Planning is already an anomaly because it makes no sense to have it decided at a different level from transport (which is an upper-tier/county responsibility).

    So if the Government is going to take recycling autonomy away from districts, let's just stop pretending and go unitary.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 73,446
    edited May 2021

    @josh_wingrove
    Biden touts his Buy American plans: "Every single thing, from the deck of an aircraft carrier to the railing of a new building, is going to be built by an American company, American workers, American supply chain, so that we invest American tax dollars in American workers."


    https://twitter.com/josh_wingrove/status/1390371816263323653

    He could call it America First....I presume CNN will be hearlding it as a brilliant plan, not racist or xenophobic at all, unlike when Orange Man would say similar things.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Selebian said:

    While we are all busy writing the obituaries for Labour, I would be fascinated to see the comment thread following the 2005 Tory GE election defeat (did PB exist then - are the threads archived anywhere?).

    COULD THIS MAN BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

    Was that a certain B Obama? I seem to remember people mentioning him once.
    Indeed.
    One or two PBers made a few coppers on that election.
    Did they?

    Why did they not mention it :wink:
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,338
    ridaligo said:

    ridaligo said:

    New thread damnit ...

    FPT

    So Labour lefties think that the reason they lost Hartlepool was because they weren't loony lefty enough? And the response to the huge defeat there is to double down on Corbyn policies? If that is the case they are deluded beyond belief. Sorry, Jezziah, but your diagnosis is so, so wrong.

    In trying to hold both the metro elite and the working class Labour vote together SKS has an impossible task: you can't take the knee wrapped in the Union flag and please both constituencies; you end up alienating both of them. He needs to choose, as Casino mentioned upthread.

    Despite people on the left of centre deriding the "culture war" as non-existent, to me it is very real. I was amazed by last evening's discussion on here that so many people had never experienced the impact of wokeness as work. I work for a large US (East Coast) global corporation and our senior management and HR are obsessed by it - our cooperate intranet is like the BBC home page with article after article on E, D & I. Maybe smaller UK firms have yet to be afflicted by it but if anyone has access to the CIPD magazine you will get an idea what is coming in terms of UK HR - the CIPD has bought into the woke agenda hook, line and sinker.

    This stuff is not going away. The people of Hartlepool may not be exposed to it in the workplace (yet) but they can see the way it is affecting popular culture and they don't like it.

    For now, the Conservatives have parked their tanks on Labour's lawn when it comes to government spending and Boris is seen as standing up for traditional British values. Labour's only response to government spending is to spend more, which lacks credibility, and it appears to be actively against traditional British values.

    So what does Labour do? Is the plan to sit and wait for the Tories to implode (most likely when the COVID spending chickens come home to roost), keep the fragile coalition together and hope that by that time demographics have worked in its favour? It might work but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue of where it stands on the British values question.

    Blair won for a reason; when the time came, mainstream Britain was not repelled by Labour. It is now.

    I have worked in HR for many years. I am instinctively right of centre politically. Sorry to break it to you, but diversity and inclusion is not about "wokeness", it is about the fact that it has been clearly proven that diverse teams are more innovative, and paradoxically perhaps, more cohesive. Maintaining the team profiles (particularly senior ones) of yesteryear that were dominated by middle aged white men is not in any organisations' interest. Most companies are recognising this, though it is a difficult challenge to address without "positive discrimination" or "affirmative action" (as it is called in the US) which is illegal in this country. One of the ways to challenge it is to promote literature and documentation that promotes the change. Hope that helps!
    Thanks, Nigel, but I'm fully aware of the theories behind this ... but that's all they are: theories. I'm not convinced by the "evidence" because I haven't seen the impact on business results measured objectively. As you are in HR, you won't be exposed to the resentment that the organization feels about this because people know to keep their mouths shut or answer "climate" surveys in the right way. I witness it on a daily basis; people are increasingly scared to speak up for fear of saying the wrong thing or they speak up with bland platitudes, which is the exact opposite of a culture that fosters innovation.

    I know we'll disagree on this topic and I know my point of view is not fashionable in the corporate world right now but this is politics and not scientific fact so I'm allowed to disagree, especially when I see the impact in the workplace.
    Sure thing, and I respect your response. It could well be that it is being implemented badly in your workplace by people that are overzealous in their application. Diverse teams do create better outcomes, and they are not just theories, it has been well proven, and while I am not going to wax lyrical now it is also actually just common sense when you investigate it. Corporate companies don't do this stuff for fun. It is being done to keep them competitive. If people find it offensive, my advice would be to find a company that has a more trad approach. They are quite easy to find: they are normally the ones that are less competitive.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164
    Lord Adonis says that Keir Starmer is not an election winner

    "I supported Keir to replace Jeremy. Unfortunately, he turns out to be a transitional figure - a nice man... without political skills or antennae at the highest level"


    Scoop by @patrickkmaguire https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-needs-an-election-winner-keir-starmer-isnt-it-nj87wfrw2
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    @josh_wingrove
    Biden touts his Buy American plans: "Every single thing, from the deck of an aircraft carrier to the railing of a new building, is going to be built by an American company, American workers, American supply chain, so that we invest American tax dollars in American workers."


    https://twitter.com/josh_wingrove/status/1390371816263323653

    “America first”, one could say. No new WTO trade round for some years...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 29,164
    Hearing there’s no hope for Leanne Wood in the Rhondda. Likely Labour gain.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1390626788473200640
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,523
    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Adonis says that Keir Starmer is not an election winner

    "I supported Keir to replace Jeremy. Unfortunately, he turns out to be a transitional figure - a nice man... without political skills or antennae at the highest level"


    Scoop by @patrickkmaguire https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-needs-an-election-winner-keir-starmer-isnt-it-nj87wfrw2

    Poor Keith...getting both barrels from both sides of the party. Is there anyone out there going to bat for him?
  • https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1390626788473200640

    Curious. Government being repaid in Wales too?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,685
    edited May 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Cookie said:

    While Labour councillors have been banging on about Free Palestine on the campaign trail...the government talking about the bins.

    A new battle plan will mean that every home in England will stick to the same system to recycle plastic, paper and other materials.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14875570/council-end-barmy-recycling-postcode-lottery

    I hear so much genuine anger that different areas do this differently. This is an anger I simply can't understand. It's the work of minutes to understand your own area's recycling system. Still, the government appears to be responding to a genuine demand here.
    The concern of course must be that this might result in a poorer service in some areas that currently have very good recycling systems.

    Currently Lincolnshire has a brilliant system. They have a single bin which takes just about everything that can possibly be recycled and then it is sorted by the private contractor (Mountain in our area). This makes recycling quick, easy and efficient and you really see a difference with very little going into the landfill bin.

    Across the border in Nottinghamshire they also have a single bin system but what you can recycle is severely limited. So no glass for example. Or tetrapacks. This means that my Mum saves all this stuff up and gives it to me to put in my recycling bin each time I see her.

    So if the rationalising means Lincolnshire end up with the Nottinghamshire system then that would be a very retrograde step.
    Many of the differences are a result of the different contractors, the different collection vehicles, the different MRF processing plants, and different end customers that various councils have for their recycling collection, processing and disposal arrangements.

    Trying to harmonise all of these would incur significant transition costs, cut out smaller commercial operations in favour of the big companies, and risk losing some of the centres of excellence and innovation - all for a gain that isn't immediately apparent. The Tories would do better to try and recover their interest in localism rather than imposing this massive centralisation on a key aspect of local government.
    It's amusing because Northumberland has private contract tips (sorry, waste recovery/recycling centres) and Newcastle's are still run by the council. Newcastle's are a million times better and less anal about things. They just let you get on with it.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,212
    Oh hello. LibDems taking a seat off the Tories in Malvern Hills:

    https://twitter.com/worcscc/status/1390626833855619073
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Scott_xP said:

    Hearing there’s no hope for Leanne Wood in the Rhondda. Likely Labour gain.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1390626788473200640

    Never thought I would read the sentence 'There's hope for labour in the Rhondda....'
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    Interesting analysis of Labour's wider problems, in a European context, from Ian Birrell:

    https://unherd.com/2021/05/is-labour-dead/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3&mc_cid=6aeb5ed090&mc_eid=836634e34b

    These disastrous results demonstrate the scale and urgency of the task before Starmer and his dwindling band of fellow travellers in their search for a path back to power. They need to offer aspiration, inspiration and cohesive vision for the future. Attacking the Tories for sleaze, shuffling the lacklustre shadow cabinet, flying the flag, taking the knee and tinkering with a few policies is not enough to defeat the Tories — especially in a nation that has only seen two elected Labour prime ministers in my lifetime of almost six decades, both from a time before Scotland was seduced by nationalism. If Labour wants to survive, let alone thrive, the lesson from Europe is that it needs major surgery rather than simply a cosmetic makeover.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 16,251
    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Adonis says that Keir Starmer is not an election winner

    "I supported Keir to replace Jeremy. Unfortunately, he turns out to be a transitional figure - a nice man... without political skills or antennae at the highest level"


    Scoop by @patrickkmaguire https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-needs-an-election-winner-keir-starmer-isnt-it-nj87wfrw2

    No Labour senior figures are willing to admit that it is not all about them. They are wrongly assuming that if they had x in charge with y policies they would be winning, but they really would not.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Scott_xP said:

    Hearing there’s no hope for Leanne Wood in the Rhondda. Likely Labour gain.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1390626788473200640

    Comical Scott AKA the Minister for Lost Causes is on manouevres.

    "It's been a good night and shows the People's Vote campaign is working"
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,568
    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Adonis says that Keir Starmer is not an election winner

    "I supported Keir to replace Jeremy. Unfortunately, he turns out to be a transitional figure - a nice man... without political skills or antennae at the highest level"


    Scoop by @patrickkmaguire https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-needs-an-election-winner-keir-starmer-isnt-it-nj87wfrw2

    LOL! Lord Adonis was just as bad as Starmer if not worse when it came to trying to cancel Brexit.
  • eekeek Posts: 22,056

    Cookie said:

    While Labour councillors have been banging on about Free Palestine on the campaign trail...the government talking about the bins.

    A new battle plan will mean that every home in England will stick to the same system to recycle plastic, paper and other materials.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14875570/council-end-barmy-recycling-postcode-lottery

    I hear so much genuine anger that different areas do this differently. This is an anger I simply can't understand. It's the work of minutes to understand your own area's recycling system. Still, the government appears to be responding to a genuine demand here.
    The concern of course must be that this might result in a poorer service in some areas that currently have very good recycling systems.

    Currently Lincolnshire has a brilliant system. They have a single bin which takes just about everything that can possibly be recycled and then it is sorted by the private contractor (Mountain in our area). This makes recycling quick, easy and efficient and you really see a difference with very little going into the landfill bin.

    Across the border in Nottinghamshire they also have a single bin system but what you can recycle is severely limited. So no glass for example. Or tetrapacks. This means that my Mum saves all this stuff up and gives it to me to put in my recycling bin each time I see her.

    So if the rationalising means Lincolnshire end up with the Nottinghamshire system then that would be a very retrograde step.
    Lower-tier (district) councils basically only do two things of any significance: recycling and planning.

    Planning is already an anomaly because it makes no sense to have it decided at a different level from transport (which is an upper-tier/county responsibility).

    So if the Government is going to take recycling autonomy away from districts, let's just stop pretending and go unitary.
    Sorry but you want planning at a local area otherwise you have councillors with no knowledge of an area voting schemes through because they need to be seen to approve something and that scheme doesn't impact them.

    As one example the destruction of Bishop Auckland Town Centre by the opening of an out of town centre went through even though every local councillor knew what the consequences would be and voted against it.
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,502
    Blackburn with Darwen: CON gain Audley & Queen's Park from LAB

    Tiger Patel makes it.....
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,708

    Scott_xP said:

    Rumours that Plaid may hold the balance of power in Wales.

    Another nail in the Union coffin...

    Utter and complete rubbish

    Plaid may join labour in coalition but it will not lead to independence

    I live in Wales remember, and unlike you, I do know Welsh politics
    It sounds like Scott is wilfully wishing for that to happen
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 43,596
    edited May 2021
    Now four LibDem gains from the Tories in Cambs

    The John Lewis shoppers strike back...
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,338
    IanB2 said:

    Cambridgeshire: LDEM gain Duxford and Ely North from CON.

    Interesting. Duxford I understand, but Ely North? Wow! That is Brexit central up there!
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Immediate promotion to vice-chair and that video to be the basis of all future PPBs.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,338
    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Adonis says that Keir Starmer is not an election winner

    "I supported Keir to replace Jeremy. Unfortunately, he turns out to be a transitional figure - a nice man... without political skills or antennae at the highest level"


    Scoop by @patrickkmaguire https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-needs-an-election-winner-keir-starmer-isnt-it-nj87wfrw2

    Ouch!
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210
    IanB2 said:

    Now four LibDem gains from the Tories in Cambs

    The John Lewis shoppers strike back...

    The Con Mayor has rubbed a few up the wrong way with his guided bus metro idea.

    Plus the Oxford - Cambs railway plan is catnip to the Nimbys.

  • To me it looks like there are signs of the Tories going backwards in the South - but they will be more than happy that with the extraordinary results in the North.

    As for Labour and the Lib Dems, it is time to sort out an unofficial pact in the South to do damage down there. To show signs of possible progress in 2024 and where the Tory majority can eventually be removed. This will however take years.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,594

    @MehreenKhn
    Die Welt reports that France is holding up the EU signing a contract for 1.8bn Pfizer vaccines (announced ~two weeks ago) because it wants guarantees more of those vaccines will be produced in France


    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1390615510505689092

    Lol.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,212
    eek said:

    Sorry but you want planning at a local area otherwise you have councillors with no knowledge of an area voting schemes through because they need to be seen to approve something and that scheme doesn't impact them.

    As one example the destruction of Bishop Auckland Town Centre by the opening of an out of town centre went through even though every local councillor knew what the consequences would be and voted against it.

    You can still have that with a unitary. Our district is already split up into two smaller planning committees (Uplands and Lowlands). No reason why that couldn't continue.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Turnout up massively in Linlothgow

    62.2% up from 53.8% in 2016

    This is huge. All bets are off.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,568
    Burnopfield and dipton, in Durham an Independent target, returns two labour councillors. Opposition vote was split. Good win for the red team
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,708
    What’s the news from Scotland?
  • HarryFreemanHarryFreeman Posts: 210
    Alistair said:

    Turnout up massively in Linlothgow

    62.2% up from 53.8% in 2016

    This is huge. All bets are off.

    Cui bono ?

  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,216

    Cookie said:

    While Labour councillors have been banging on about Free Palestine on the campaign trail...the government talking about the bins.

    A new battle plan will mean that every home in England will stick to the same system to recycle plastic, paper and other materials.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14875570/council-end-barmy-recycling-postcode-lottery

    I hear so much genuine anger that different areas do this differently. This is an anger I simply can't understand. It's the work of minutes to understand your own area's recycling system. Still, the government appears to be responding to a genuine demand here.
    The concern of course must be that this might result in a poorer service in some areas that currently have very good recycling systems.

    Currently Lincolnshire has a brilliant system. They have a single bin which takes just about everything that can possibly be recycled and then it is sorted by the private contractor (Mountain in our area). This makes recycling quick, easy and efficient and you really see a difference with very little going into the landfill bin.

    Across the border in Nottinghamshire they also have a single bin system but what you can recycle is severely limited. So no glass for example. Or tetrapacks. This means that my Mum saves all this stuff up and gives it to me to put in my recycling bin each time I see her.

    So if the rationalising means Lincolnshire end up with the Nottinghamshire system then that would be a very retrograde step.
    Tetrapaks are an enormous pain to recycle I’ve read - to the point that the profitability of a recycling service is dominated by the proportion of Tetrapaks in the waste stream (if I recall the article in question correctly).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 42,433

    Scott_xP said:

    Lord Adonis says that Keir Starmer is not an election winner

    "I supported Keir to replace Jeremy. Unfortunately, he turns out to be a transitional figure - a nice man... without political skills or antennae at the highest level"


    Scoop by @patrickkmaguire https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-needs-an-election-winner-keir-starmer-isnt-it-nj87wfrw2

    Poor Keith...getting both barrels from both sides of the party. Is there anyone out there going to bat for him?
    He must have a few dozen newly-elected councillors out there somewhere!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 12,338
    MaxPB said:

    @MehreenKhn
    Die Welt reports that France is holding up the EU signing a contract for 1.8bn Pfizer vaccines (announced ~two weeks ago) because it wants guarantees more of those vaccines will be produced in France


    https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1390615510505689092

    Lol.
    Perhaps the EU should kick France out (a joke btw)! They really don't help the EU cause.
This discussion has been closed.