Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
TBH I haven't celebrated like I planned, I am just a bit sad, I should be enjoying it much more, what I am doing however is setting out how Labour could do better and have been doing better.
Would you like Labour to do better?
Of course. Labour will not do better until it’s left and right bury the hatchet and work together.
I couldn’t give a shit if Labour is led from the left or the right. But whoever leads Labour needs to know that it’s position as a major party under FPTP is at risk. And to maintain that either wing of the party needs to appeal beyond its comfort zone.
You calling Labour supporters evil the other day is the cancer at the heart of the party. Your celebration today is a core reason why Labour makes no progress. The fact you are celebrating the defeat of hard working candidates should be a matter of shame.
I just said I am not celebrating.
I was even willing to go along with Starmer at first, but no he wanted war. Well war it is, good luck winning voters whilst continuing the centrist war on the left which has been happening from the moment I've been supporting Labour. If the left just took everything lying down that wouldn't stop the right, screw em.
If they are big enough to dish it out they are big enough to take it, if the centrists want to stop the war then make reparations, they have no intention though they are happy to lead the party whilst making war on the left even if it means losses.
It is your guys in charge, I am on the outside looking (and not for some reason celebrating like I should be) at the wreckage, you centrists need to decide if this is worth it or not.
All I'm really seeing here is a lot of UKIP > Con transfers, hardly the seismic shift some people on here are talking about.
It's like a bunch of people rocking up to their favourite Spoons and finding Carling is out so switching to Carlsberg instead. It's not a change of preferences, it's a substitution.
You are missing the point, many of those Brexit party voters were solid former Labour voters in Hartlepool who last time couldn't quite make the journey to the Conservatives. But once they had voted for another party other than Labour over the issue of Brexit, it then became a stepping stone to voting Conservative after they had delivered Brexit. Those voters do not see this as a substitution, they see it as the choice for the party that delivered their first choice. Hence my question on the last thread about why on earth the Labour party would chose a candidate with a clear record for consistently voting against Brexit in his brief tenure as an MP between 2017 and 2019. Surely the fact that he lost his seat in 2019 was a big giveaway?
And they picked the grand high wizard of remoanerism as their leader
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
Looks similar to Social Democrats in Germany.
The much maligned two-party system in US is helping prevent such a fate for the Democrats.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
Is that the real Jezziah or The Jezziah?
I've often been surprised that Corbyn's sticking with Labour for decades even under Blair, doesn't cut more ice with those who look for left alternatives.
Labour really thought we would forget about their Brexit betrayal. As you sow, so you shall reap.
It's not just about Brexit. The problem is white working-class provincial voters don't have much in common with big city metropolitanistas and vice versa. I'm not sure how they can keep that coalition of voters together.
Spot on.
If the Labour Party embraces the provincial WWC vote, they risk losing the globalist, metropolitan elite to the LibDems.
Simply they need to step back and ask what's the coalition that gets to 40%?
Corbyn 2017.
An election when Labour accepted Brexit.
Labours behaviour on Brexit since is what’s totally fucked them.
The vaccines has vindicated Brexit massively and obviously. And Labour still hasn’t accepted it.
Until they do, they are going to struggle to compete.
I agree it's *part* of the problem. But Starmer has accepted Brexit. There's no policy of rejoin or even of EEA from Starmer.
Nobody believes that. The assumption is that if Starmer becomes PM he begins to unwind brexit and chip away at the existing deal with a bunch of side deals that will make brexit look a lot like EU membership.
Starmer was always going to struggle on brexit, he was remainer and anti brexit schemer in chief for four years. People won't forget that easily.
He should be winning people like me over, but I'd struggle to vote for a Labour party led by Starmer. My gut feeling is that he's only in it to try and reverse brexit.
It really depends on what "Brexit" is.
If it is essentially an adversarial and even hostile attitude to our neighbours for populist votes at home, yes he is trying to reverse it. If it is leaving the EU, as per the 2015 vote, then no he is not trying to reverse it.
There are significant numbers of voters at either end of that spectrum and all the way in between.
Brexit has nothing to do with the vaccine rollout though, we’ve been through this before.
Either way, I do agree Starmer should say Labour got Brexit wrong
Didn't it? I wonder if Corbyn or Starmer was PM if they'd have ignored the demands of the Guardian et al. to sign up to the EU's program.
Suspect that Corbyn would have, after all he was NOT what you'[d call gung-ho about the EU in the first place.
But he would have never in a million years got Kate Bingham to chair it….
No he wouldn't.
Placing her, a multi million pound venture capitalist, in charge of vaccine procurement was one of the greatest decisions in the history of this nation. I don't exaggerate.
Greens seem to be doing well from early results .All goes well for m biggest bet on the election - Berry to come third in the London Mayor . Only rival might be Binface!
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
This is the kind of criticism Starmer can expect in next few days - barn from Labour MP below ...likely Qs too about timing of by elex and wisdom of choosing candidate who was strong Remainer in strong Brexit area
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
Problem is FPTP is a tough old beast - if left and right of Labour are this at odds how can they win? It's not like theyll just let the other party of ostensibly the same party win apparently.
Long dominance is not good for the country, we need Labour factions to have some kind of armistice at some point.
So about those opinion polls the other week..............
I think the sleaze reports caused a temporary tumbleweed dip for Boris. When the headlines changed back things reverted.
We know that temporary ups and downs can happen e.g. during Conference season.
Like the phrase "tumbleweed dip" which I've not heard before.
Back in 2005 during epic, knock-down, drag-out election court contest Gregoire versus Rossi for Governor of Washington (Demorat Gregoire won by +133 votes) yours truly had occasion to drive across Eastern WA which is mostly desert or close enough.
As I was cruising along there was a steady windstorm. Which pushed hundreds, thousands of tumbling tumbleweed across the landscape. Including ones that just so happened to slam into the side of my car.
Stopped to check to make sure the tumbleweed weren't messing up the paint. They were not. So continued on my merry way. When I stopped that night, at Grand Coulee Dam, the winds had died down. And there were piles of tumbleweeds that had ended against walls, or buildings or whatever.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
Is that the real Jezziah or The Jezziah?
I've often been surprised that Corbyn's sticking with Labour for decades even under Blair, doesn't cut more ice with those who look for left alternatives.
Corbyn is older, he had time to acquire loyalty to Labour.
If you are left wing and younger then Corbyn is the only time you might have started to rack up that loyalty and the party went to war with him during that time.
I'm Labour in a family way, sort of always thought of myself as Labour, but as a left winger for much of my time Labour haven't been my party. Corbyn had decades were Labour were his party.
Basically Corbyn is looking at a decades old friend whereas I am looking at a family friend or an acquittance, the loyalty is always going to be different.
Although the other side of this is you have some older lefties who stuck around during Blair despite him not being their type of leader and now feel doubly betrayed because the right didn't do the same back for their type of leader.
This is the kind of criticism Starmer can expect in next few days - barn from Labour MP below ...likely Qs too about timing of by elex and wisdom of choosing candidate who was strong Remainer in strong Brexit area
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
Problem is FPTP is a tough old beast - if left and right of Labour are this at odds how can they win? It's not like theyll just let the other party of ostensibly the same party win apparently.
Long dominance is not good for the country, we need Labour factions to have some kind of armistice at some point.
Speaking personally, I like to be even with people. We get to wreck their leader. Then we start back again with a left wing leadership and then the left must act how the right act under this hypothetical new leadership under a future right wing one. Obviously Corbyn would have to be back in as well.
Or basically the left should do what it has done but this time with the right behaving itself and the left faithfully copying again.
Just seen pics of vote counts on the tables. A huge pile of votes on the Tory candidates table just added.. defeat must be at the worst end of what one might have thought possible.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
Just seen pics of vote counts on the tables. A huge pile of votes on the Tory candidates table just added.. defeat must be at the worst end of what one might have thought possible.
Just seen pics of vote counts on the tables. A huge pile of votes on the Tory candidates table just added.. defeat must be at the worst end of what one might have thought possible.
The gap between the tory and labour hartlepool votes is so huge i doubt the Evergreen could even block it
chronicle live - Hartlepool candidates yet to arrive at count The Tory candidate Jill Mortimer, expected to win comfortably in Hartlepool, has yet to arrive at the count, according to TeessideLive reporter Katie Anderson.
So about those opinion polls the other week..............
I think the sleaze reports caused a temporary tumbleweed dip for Boris. When the headlines changed back things reverted.
We know that temporary ups and downs can happen e.g. during Conference season.
Like the phrase "tumbleweed dip" which I've not heard before.
Back in 2005 during epic, knock-down, drag-out election court contest Gregoire versus Rossi for Governor of Washington (Demorat Gregoire won by +133 votes) yours truly had occasion to drive across Eastern WA which is mostly desert or close enough.
As I was cruising along there was a steady windstorm. Which pushed hundreds, thousands of tumbling tumbleweed across the landscape. Including ones that just so happened to slam into the side of my car.
Stopped to check to make sure the tumbleweed weren't messing up the paint. They were not. So continued on my merry way. When I stopped that night, at Grand Coulee Dam, the winds had died down. And there were piles of tumbleweeds that had ended against walls, or buildings or whatever.
The young vs the old is now the real political dividing line in this country. Labour needs to understand this basic fact and act accordingly.
I wonder what the turnout of the under 40s have been in the suite of elections? Less than 20%?
You are definitely correct that it is primarily young v old now replacing class and wealth, but how do they act accordingly?
There are just more over 50s than under 50s and the overs vote in significantly higher proportions too. It will be really hard, whether Labour choose a leftist, centre left or even Blairite leader.
They can either try and woo some over 50s, which wont be done by a Corbyn style leader, or try and work on a strategy to keep people aligned as they move through their 30s, 40s and 50s - which is high risk and the payoff will be in a decades time, if ever.
Looks like the story so far is Tory gains in strong Leave territory with cheaper house prices and high home ownership eg the Tories have gained Harlow and Nuneaton and made inroads from Labour in Sunderland and are squeezing the 12% UKIP vote from the 2016 district elections. Looks like the Tories will also win Hartlepool by squeezing the big BXP vote there from 2019.
In southern areas which were less strongly Leave or Remain and where house prices are higher and there is a higher NIMBY presence opposed to any new developments the Tories will do less well, eg Residents Association have already picked up Uttlesford and Thaxted from the Tories in a posher part of Essex and expect similar RA and LD and Green gains in the South and East.
In the counties UKIP only got 4% though in 2017 and the Tories already have a big lead, so expect the Tories to do worse in the county elections than the district elections that have reported so far
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The left have the power to stop it. The right have the power to stop it. There are spiteful bastards on both sides. There are people who call the other side evil on both sides.
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
Problem is FPTP is a tough old beast - if left and right of Labour are this at odds how can they win? It's not like theyll just let the other party of ostensibly the same party win apparently.
Long dominance is not good for the country, we need Labour factions to have some kind of armistice at some point.
Speaking personally, I like to be even with people. We get to wreck their leader. Then we start back again with a left wing leadership and then the left must act how the right act under this hypothetical new leadership under a future right wing one. Obviously Corbyn would have to be back in as well.
Or basically the left should do what it has done but this time with the right behaving itself and the left faithfully copying again.
There's only two options for Labour, as I see it ; either a new and inspired group of advisors to a uniting leadership, channelling Wilson's very broad base of social, material, educational and progressive aspiration, of the 1960s, or a complete realignment of the centre left. The second option would mean Labour agreeing to an amicable split, but only if the terms of a grand left-of-centre coalition were agreed first, with PR offered to the Greens and Lib Dems in reward for support.
So I wonder why Tony Blairs political analysis will ever be taken seriously again...
We not only got another leader but one he liked and wanted being guided by his fan club within the party.
This could not be more what Blair wanted outside of personally leading the party.
20 points ahead?!
20 points ahead?!
Tony you are a few decades behind the country, you need to take up something less taxing like golf or crossword puzzles.
Centrism is an electoral joke.
I voted labour yesterday - Dan Norris for WECA mayor. I haven't voted labour - I don't think - since Blair was PM. Norris is very much to the centre of the party. In my view Starmer is charmless, too left wing, too pro European, but I would never vote Labour whilst Corbyn or one of his cronies were leader. So he is the least worst option for Labour wanting to appeal to left and right.
6.43 Tory candidate for Hartlepool arrives The Tory candidate Jill Mortimer, who is expected to win in Hartlepool, has now arrived at Mill House leisure centre
Sensational LibDem gains in Sunderland. Expected Blue Labour gains in Sunderland and pretty much anywhere there have been results so far. Clearly a Green surge in pockets.
Someone needs to give the Pools teller's some speed up substances.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The left have the power to stop it. The right have the power to stop it. There are spiteful bastards on both sides. There are people who call the other side evil on both sides.
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
Even though I'm not a Labour / Corbynite, I actually think Corbyn was a plus for Labour (I'm purposefully ignoring the anti-Semitism behaviour which, in a personal view, I don't think had that much impact on Labour's net vote) as:
1. HIs stance on Brexit (essentially everyone knew he would be for it but had to be seen to be against it) helped Labour in 2017; 2. You certainly couldn't claim he was a professional politician and didn't across as flashy; 3. Some of his policies were genuinely appealing to traditional left wing WWC voters; 4. His supporters were committed and so brought some energy to the party.
His issue in 2019 was not so much that he was useless per se etc, it was that Labour was seen as trying to hamstring Brexit by going along with the shenanigans of Soubry, Grieve etc. And who was recommending that sort of style? SKS.
SKS is an absolutely disaster for Labour. He risks seeing the party disintegrate as its constituent parts splinter off.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The left have the power to stop it. The right have the power to stop it. There are spiteful bastards on both sides. There are people who call the other side evil on both sides.
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
Well from my POV the right started it and are far worse, you may disagree but I am only stating my view, which is why I put this disclaimer at the start 'This is the way I see it.'
Maybe others on the left don't see it my way, the Labour right own the Labour party at the moment. They can be king of something slowly reduced to rubble or a political party that wants to be in government, in my view they hold all the cards and it is their move.
I am just here to try and enjoy (unsuccessfully so far) the wreckage.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
Problem is FPTP is a tough old beast - if left and right of Labour are this at odds how can they win? It's not like theyll just let the other party of ostensibly the same party win apparently.
Long dominance is not good for the country, we need Labour factions to have some kind of armistice at some point.
Speaking personally, I like to be even with people. We get to wreck their leader. Then we start back again with a left wing leadership and then the left must act how the right act under this hypothetical new leadership under a future right wing one. Obviously Corbyn would have to be back in as well.
Or basically the left should do what it has done but this time with the right behaving itself and the left faithfully copying again.
There's only two options for Labour, as I see it ; either a new and inspired group of advisors to a uniting leadership, channelling Wilson's very broad base of social, material, educational and progressive aspiration, of the 1960s, or a complete realignment of the centre left. The second option would mean Labour agreeing to an amicable split, but only if the terms of a grand left-of-centre coalition were fully agreed first, with PR offered to the Greens and Lib Dems in reward for support.
I prefer splitting TBH.
@Nemtynakht Well it is good to hear that Starmer is at least appealing to someone (or winning their vote) problem is he seems to be turning more people off than he is winning over at the moment, making him a bad compromise.
@RochdalePioneers Your insults like your politics, are weak and outdated.
To be fair, it's not all his fault; the traditional Left in most major western democracies (particularly in Europe) has some very difficult choices. It's possible Labour could start to be eclipsed in England by the Greens in their core metropolitan areas, as per Germany, at the same time as the Tories squeeze them out in traditional working class bastions.
The problem is that if you stand for nothing you will fall for anything - without mass industrialised labour as its bedrock it really isn't clear what Labour's "glue" is anymore for the 21st century.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The left have the power to stop it. The right have the power to stop it. There are spiteful bastards on both sides. There are people who call the other side evil on both sides.
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
Even though I'm not a Labour / Corbynite, I actually think Corbyn was a plus for Labour (I'm purposefully ignoring the anti-Semitism behaviour which, in a personal view, I don't think had that much impact on Labour's net vote) as:
1. HIs stance on Brexit (essentially everyone knew he would be for it but had to be seen to be against it) helped Labour in 2017; 2. You certainly couldn't claim he was a professional politician and didn't across as flashy; 3. Some of his policies were genuinely appealing to traditional left wing WWC voters; 4. His supporters were committed and so brought some energy to the party.
His issue in 2019 was not so much that he was useless per se etc, it was that Labour was seen as trying to hamstring Brexit by going along with the shenanigans of Soubry, Grieve etc. And who was recommending that sort of style? SKS.
SKS is an absolutely disaster for Labour. He risks seeing the party disintegrate as its constituent parts splinter off.
Corbyn absolutely is a professional politician, hes been an MP for nearly 40 years and is involved in loads of political causes, committees and movements.
What he was is unconventional, which did seem to inspire a lot of people. Though nature of the job and all he actually became a lot more conventional as LOTO than given credit for. Or should have been criticised for.
Pete Burns(LAB) - 701 Reuben Michael Carr (CON) - 1,112 Gordon Castle (CON) - 1,834 Jenny Eckersley (LD) - 457 Julia Marion Lyford (LAB) - 485 Martin Philip Swinbank(GRN) - 1,671
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The left have the power to stop it. The right have the power to stop it. There are spiteful bastards on both sides. There are people who call the other side evil on both sides.
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
Well from my POV the right started it and are far worse, you may disagree but I am only stating my view, which is why I put this disclaimer at the start 'This is the way I see it.'
Maybe others on the left don't see it my way, the Labour right own the Labour party at the moment. They can be king of something slowly reduced to rubble or a political party that wants to be in government, in my view they hold all the cards and it is their move.
I am just here to try and enjoy (unsuccessfully so far) the wreckage.
And that is why you are part of the problem and why Labour will not recover. You need to learn to love and appreciate your fellow members.
FWIW I think Corbyn by accident stumbled on the right formula in 2017. A left wing leader with a broad 1997 style manifesto. The problem was is that he had too much baggage to pull it off. A younger Adern type politician might have won.
By 2019 he had lost that broader appeal in his manifesto, impaled himself on the fence of Brexit and accrued a lot more baggage.
Looks like the story so far is Tory gains in strong Leave territory with cheaper house prices and high home ownership eg the Tories have gained Harlow and Nuneaton and made inroads from Labour in Sunderland and are squeezing the 12% UKIP vote from the 2016 district elections. Looks like the Tories will also win Hartlepool by squeezing the big BXP vote there from 2019.
In southern areas which were less strongly Leave or Remain and where house prices are higher and there is a higher NIMBY presence opposed to any new developments the Tories will do less well, eg Residents Association have already picked up Uttlesford and Thaxted from the Tories in a posher part of Essex and expect similar RA and LD and Green gains in the South and East.
In the counties UKIP only got 4% though in 2017 and the Tories already have a big lead, so expect the Tories to do worse in the county elections than the district elections that have reported so far
Didn't realise UKIP were as low as that in the counties , useful info.
Sensational LibDem gains in Sunderland. Expected Blue Labour gains in Sunderland and pretty much anywhere there have been results so far. Clearly a Green surge in pockets.
Someone needs to give the Pools teller's some speed up substances.
Jezziah: ha ha ha ha ha ha anus
I think the Lib Dem’s did well in Sunderland but disagree it is sensational. It is the continuation of a trend. Ed Davey visited a couple of times. It’s something they had targeted and were expecting.
The new statesman had a piece about it a week or so ago.
Pete Burns(LAB) - 701 Reuben Michael Carr (CON) - 1,112 Gordon Castle (CON) - 1,834 Jenny Eckersley (LD) - 457 Julia Marion Lyford (LAB) - 485 Martin Philip Swinbank(GRN) - 1,671
GREEN GAIN AND CON HOLD
Take it that's a two seat ward, with a Green gain from Con. Wonder where the second Green votes went!
Looks like the story so far is Tory gains in strong Leave territory with cheaper house prices and high home ownership eg the Tories have gained Harlow and Nuneaton and made inroads from Labour in Sunderland and are squeezing the 12% UKIP vote from the 2016 district elections. Looks like the Tories will also win Hartlepool by squeezing the big BXP vote there from 2019.
In southern areas which were less strongly Leave or Remain and where house prices are higher and there is a higher NIMBY presence opposed to any new developments the Tories will do less well, eg Residents Association have already picked up Uttlesford and Thaxted from the Tories in a posher part of Essex and expect similar RA and LD and Green gains in the South and East.
In the counties UKIP only got 4% though in 2017 and the Tories already have a big lead, so expect the Tories to do worse in the county elections than the district elections that have reported so far
Impressive analysis. Thanks for this.
Especially so soon after your return from active sea duty!
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The left have the power to stop it. The right have the power to stop it. There are spiteful bastards on both sides. There are people who call the other side evil on both sides.
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
Even though I'm not a Labour / Corbynite, I actually think Corbyn was a plus for Labour (I'm purposefully ignoring the anti-Semitism behaviour which, in a personal view, I don't think had that much impact on Labour's net vote) as:
1. HIs stance on Brexit (essentially everyone knew he would be for it but had to be seen to be against it) helped Labour in 2017; 2. You certainly couldn't claim he was a professional politician and didn't across as flashy; 3. Some of his policies were genuinely appealing to traditional left wing WWC voters; 4. His supporters were committed and so brought some energy to the party.
His issue in 2019 was not so much that he was useless per se etc, it was that Labour was seen as trying to hamstring Brexit by going along with the shenanigans of Soubry, Grieve etc. And who was recommending that sort of style? SKS.
SKS is an absolutely disaster for Labour. He risks seeing the party disintegrate as its constituent parts splinter off.
Corbyn absolutely is a professional politician, hes been an MP for nearly 40 years and is involved in loads of political causes, committees and movements.
What he was is unconventional, which did seem to inspire a lot of people. Though nature of the job and all he actually became a lot more conventional as LOTO than given credit for. Or should have been criticised for.
In fairness people can often use the terms amateur, professional and such very much outside the strict definitions of paid to do something.
Best example (I can think of) is probably a professional foul in football, all fouls in top level football are done by professionals, amateurs can't get on the pitch to compete in the games. Also a professional foul is actually worse to do than a regular foul... and an amateur can do a professional foul...
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
Just a reminder for those like you. Corbyn only did relatively well in 2017 because no-one seriously thought he would be supported. The 'threat' was Theresa May wanting a 'super-majority' to do whatever she wanted on Brexit. He still got a very low number of seats, and went backwards in 2019. He should have lost many more seats like Hartlepool but Ref UK felt able to stand to pressure the Government.
Starmer is an improvement for many including me, and as I say above I voted labour yesterday for the first time in many years. That is mainly because he is not an anti-Semitic 70s throwback.
The fact he is not very good, but more people like him than Corbyn should worry you not be an inspiration.
From Maomentum on Twitter for the attention of Jezziah:
APOLOGY We may have previously inadvertently given the impression that Labour's loss of Red Wall seats was part of a decades' long trend and not the fault of the leader. We now realise in fact that any future loss of Red Wall seats will be solely the fault of Keir Starmer. Thanks
Looks like the story so far is Tory gains in strong Leave territory with cheaper house prices and high home ownership eg the Tories have gained Harlow and Nuneaton and made inroads from Labour in Sunderland and are squeezing the 12% UKIP vote from the 2016 district elections. Looks like the Tories will also win Hartlepool by squeezing the big BXP vote there from 2019.
In southern areas which were less strongly Leave or Remain and where house prices are higher and there is a higher NIMBY presence opposed to any new developments the Tories will do less well, eg Residents Association have already picked up Uttlesford and Thaxted from the Tories in a posher part of Essex and expect similar RA and LD and Green gains in the South and East.
In the counties UKIP only got 4% though in 2017 and the Tories already have a big lead, so expect the Tories to do worse in the county elections than the district elections that have reported so far
Impressive analysis. Thanks for this.
Especially so soon after your return from active sea duty!
Thanks, I was going from 7am yesterday until 9 30pm last night.
Now have a break until the district and town and parish count at lunchtime
Sensational LibDem gains in Sunderland. Expected Blue Labour gains in Sunderland and pretty much anywhere there have been results so far. Clearly a Green surge in pockets.
Someone needs to give the Pools teller's some speed up substances.
Jezziah: ha ha ha ha ha ha anus
I think the Lib Dem’s did well in Sunderland but disagree it is sensational. It is the continuation of a trend. Ed Davey visited a couple of times. It’s something they had targeted and were expecting.
The new statesman had a piece about it a week or so ago.
LibDems appear to have done ok, based on the limited number of seats declared so far. They will be in the mid to high teens on NEV share, and may even hold steady in terms of councillors, which is a decent performance given that the Conservative vote share is up.
Pete Burns(LAB) - 701 Reuben Michael Carr (CON) - 1,112 Gordon Castle (CON) - 1,834 Jenny Eckersley (LD) - 457 Julia Marion Lyford (LAB) - 485 Martin Philip Swinbank(GRN) - 1,671
GREEN GAIN AND CON HOLD
Take it that's a two seat ward, with a Green gain from Con. Wonder where the second Green votes went!
Get the feeling that goodly share just voted for one candidate, the rest went all over, esp to Conservative? And some Tories voted Green? Sound like mix of national & local factors?
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The left have the power to stop it. The right have the power to stop it. There are spiteful bastards on both sides. There are people who call the other side evil on both sides.
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
Well from my POV the right started it and are far worse, you may disagree but I am only stating my view, which is why I put this disclaimer at the start 'This is the way I see it.'
Maybe others on the left don't see it my way, the Labour right own the Labour party at the moment. They can be king of something slowly reduced to rubble or a political party that wants to be in government, in my view they hold all the cards and it is their move.
I am just here to try and enjoy (unsuccessfully so far) the wreckage.
And that is why you are part of the problem and why Labour will not recover. You need to learn to love and appreciate your fellow members.
FWIW I think Corbyn by accident stumbled on the right formula in 2017. A left wing leader with a broad 1997 style manifesto. The problem was is that he had too much baggage to pull it off. A younger Adern type politician might have won.
By 2019 he had lost that broader appeal in his manifesto, impaled himself on the fence of Brexit and accrued a lot more baggage.
After the way Labour treated me and my viewpoint why I would care about it dying?
The right successfully quashed a lot of the warm fuzzy feelings and connections I might have felt to Labour, the history would be sad to lose but I am bit nerdy in that regard, I imagine a lot of other younger lefties wouldn't be too bothered on that part.
Also the Labour right ensured he had too much baggage to win, were there wasn't baggage to be found or the 'baggage' didn't have a negative impact they were there to work hard to make sure it did.
I treat others how they treat me, because if you don't stand up for yourself you will just get walked over constantly. That isn't the life for me.
Nailed on Tory gain. Called it. Majority north of 5,000. Called it. The end of Paul Williams short political career as he disappears in a puff of hubris? Called it.
Perhaps the PM now that he has finished dragging his fiance around for the cameras can get in with telling Pools residents how much money their reward is. He needs to send them their bribe money and he needs to send it sharpish or they'll get their monkey gallows out again.
Looks like the story so far is Tory gains in strong Leave territory with cheaper house prices and high home ownership eg the Tories have gained Harlow and Nuneaton and made inroads from Labour in Sunderland and are squeezing the 12% UKIP vote from the 2016 district elections. Looks like the Tories will also win Hartlepool by squeezing the big BXP vote there from 2019.
In southern areas which were less strongly Leave or Remain and where house prices are higher and there is a higher NIMBY presence opposed to any new developments the Tories will do less well, eg Residents Association have already picked up Uttlesford and Thaxted from the Tories in a posher part of Essex and expect similar RA and LD and Green gains in the South and East.
In the counties UKIP only got 4% though in 2017 and the Tories already have a big lead, so expect the Tories to do worse in the county elections than the district elections that have reported so far
Impressive analysis. Thanks for this.
Especially so soon after your return from active sea duty!
Thanks, I was going from 7am yesterday until 9 30pm last night.
Now have a break until the district and town and parish count at lunchtime
Perhaps you should enjoy a nice kipper for breakfast?
Seems appropriate, given how the Tories ate up the UKIP/Brexit vote.
Nailed on Tory gain. Called it. Majority north of 5,000. Called it. The end of Paul Williams short political career as he disappears in a puff of hubris? Called it.
Perhaps the PM now that he has finished dragging his fiance around for the cameras can get in with telling Pools residents how much money their reward is. He needs to send them their bribe money and he needs to send it sharpish or they'll get their monkey gallows out again.
Wasnt he nailed on to be a PCC? Lost earnings right there.
Sad to see Jezziah delighted and celebrating a poor Labour performance. Clearly part of the problem.
The party is badly split. Its not good to have an ineffective opposition when the soul of Labour is going to be fought over again....
Yup, part of Starmers apparent weakness is that he has been papering over cracks a mile wide. If Labour doesn’t act FPTP will consign it to the dustbin. I fear it is already too late.
This is the way I see it.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
The left have been shitting on the right. The right have been shitting on the left. You talk about war.
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Okay all my imagination Corbyn had massive support from the right of the party and didn't constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the spiteful bastards only to get spat on repeatedly. The right started it, now it is the lefts turn to have fun.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The left have the power to stop it. The right have the power to stop it. There are spiteful bastards on both sides. There are people who call the other side evil on both sides.
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
Well from my POV the right started it and are far worse, you may disagree but I am only stating my view, which is why I put this disclaimer at the start 'This is the way I see it.'
Maybe others on the left don't see it my way, the Labour right own the Labour party at the moment. They can be king of something slowly reduced to rubble or a political party that wants to be in government, in my view they hold all the cards and it is their move.
I am just here to try and enjoy (unsuccessfully so far) the wreckage.
And that is why you are part of the problem and why Labour will not recover. You need to learn to love and appreciate your fellow members.
FWIW I think Corbyn by accident stumbled on the right formula in 2017. A left wing leader with a broad 1997 style manifesto. The problem was is that he had too much baggage to pull it off. A younger Adern type politician might have won.
By 2019 he had lost that broader appeal in his manifesto, impaled himself on the fence of Brexit and accrued a lot more baggage.
After the way Labour treated me and my viewpoint why I would care about it dying?
The right successfully quashed a lot of the warm fuzzy feelings and connections I might have felt to Labour, the history would be sad to lose but I am bit nerdy in that regard, I imagine a lot of other younger lefties wouldn't be too bothered on that part.
Also the Labour right ensured he had too much baggage to win, were there wasn't baggage to be found or the 'baggage' didn't have a negative impact they were there to work hard to make sure it did.
I treat others how they treat me, because if you don't stand up for yourself you will just get walked over constantly. That isn't the life for me.
if everyone takes your attitude there is no progress.
Comments
Grn: 48.1% (+41.0)
Lab: 34.7% (-23.1)
Con: 10.8% (-3.2)
Ind: 5.0% (+5.0)
LDem: 1.4% (-4.5)
No UKIP (-14.0) as prev.
Grn GAIN from Lab
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1390535393049731072?s=20
Jerry Lee Lewis - Great Balls of Fire (Saturday Night Beechbut Show Feb 14, 1958)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elZbkfxRHZg
Clement Attlee might well have enjoyed this performance in his time. Or maybe not!
I was even willing to go along with Starmer at first, but no he wanted war. Well war it is, good luck winning voters whilst continuing the centrist war on the left which has been happening from the moment I've been supporting Labour. If the left just took everything lying down that wouldn't stop the right, screw em.
If they are big enough to dish it out they are big enough to take it, if the centrists want to stop the war then make reparations, they have no intention though they are happy to lead the party whilst making war on the left even if it means losses.
It is your guys in charge, I am on the outside looking (and not for some reason celebrating like I should be) at the wreckage, you centrists need to decide if this is worth it or not.
The much maligned two-party system in US is helping prevent such a fate for the Democrats.
For time being anyway.
I've often been surprised that Corbyn's sticking with Labour for decades even under Blair, doesn't cut more ice with those who look for left alternatives.
We know that temporary ups and downs can happen e.g. during Conference season.
If it is essentially an adversarial and even hostile attitude to our neighbours for populist votes at home, yes he is trying to reverse it.
If it is leaving the EU, as per the 2015 vote, then no he is not trying to reverse it.
There are significant numbers of voters at either end of that spectrum and all the way in between.
Placing her, a multi million pound venture capitalist, in charge of vaccine procurement was one of the greatest decisions in the history of this nation. I don't exaggerate.
I wonder what the turnout of the under 40s have been in the suite of elections? Less than 20%?
Bright and sunny after the dampness of yesterday. Especially when Mrs C and I had gone out for an otherwise very pleasant pub lunch.
Many on the right of Labour didn't want Corbyn, they wanted a right wing leader. So they attacked him, one of those attacks was being unelectable, in fact it was the main one prior to 2017. They got proven wrong (if he got to that position in 2017 it clearly wasn't impossible)
So they worked overtime to make sure they were right and he would lose so they could get the right wing leader they wanted. Now we have a right wing leader the left are not expected to reciprocate.
And then presumably even if the left didn't reciprocate if they did happen to get another left wing leader, the right would just do exactly the same thing over again until we ended up with a right wing leader again because why the hell wouldn't they?
They got everything they wanted prior to the kickback from left wingers so what reason to change their behaviour would there be?
None.
So basically left wing Labour members were told you can never get what you want and must always do what we want, also we must behave like the right behaved during Corbyn's entire leadership which I am sure sounds like a perfect reasonable compromise from a Labour right wing point of view.
Unsurprisingly it isn't one anyone would accept.
This is the kind of criticism Starmer can expect in next few days - barn from Labour MP below ...likely Qs too about timing of by elex and wisdom of choosing candidate who was strong Remainer in strong Brexit area
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1390538352856817664?s=20
Long dominance is not good for the country, we need Labour factions to have some kind of armistice at some point.
Back in 2005 during epic, knock-down, drag-out election court contest Gregoire versus Rossi for Governor of Washington (Demorat Gregoire won by +133 votes) yours truly had occasion to drive across Eastern WA which is mostly desert or close enough.
As I was cruising along there was a steady windstorm. Which pushed hundreds, thousands of tumbling tumbleweed across the landscape. Including ones that just so happened to slam into the side of my car.
Stopped to check to make sure the tumbleweed weren't messing up the paint. They were not. So continued on my merry way. When I stopped that night, at Grand Coulee Dam, the winds had died down. And there were piles of tumbleweeds that had ended against walls, or buildings or whatever.
I love the little guys!
Sons of the Pioneers "Tumbling Tumble Weeds"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UiSMyyj-Ac
If you are left wing and younger then Corbyn is the only time you might have started to rack up that loyalty and the party went to war with him during that time.
I'm Labour in a family way, sort of always thought of myself as Labour, but as a left winger for much of my time Labour haven't been my party. Corbyn had decades were Labour were his party.
Basically Corbyn is looking at a decades old friend whereas I am looking at a family friend or an acquittance, the loyalty is always going to be different.
Although the other side of this is you have some older lefties who stuck around during Blair despite him not being their type of leader and now feel doubly betrayed because the right didn't do the same back for their type of leader.
Glad you & your lady enjoyed your lunch! Happy Birthday, you old dog!
It's all complete and total bullshit.
Or basically the left should do what it has done but this time with the right behaving itself and the left faithfully copying again.
The right have to power to stop it but they won't, so don't blame the left, put the blame where it belongs.
The Tory candidate Jill Mortimer, expected to win comfortably in Hartlepool, has yet to arrive at the count, according to TeessideLive reporter Katie Anderson.
Neither is Labour's Dr Paul Williams.
p.s. I made the 'tumbleweed dip' phrase up and it seems to work but whether it's truly original, I don't know
There are just more over 50s than under 50s and the overs vote in significantly higher proportions too. It will be really hard, whether Labour choose a leftist, centre left or even Blairite leader.
They can either try and woo some over 50s, which wont be done by a Corbyn style leader, or try and work on a strategy to keep people aligned as they move through their 30s, 40s and 50s - which is high risk and the payoff will be in a decades time, if ever.
In southern areas which were less strongly Leave or Remain and where house prices are higher and there is a higher NIMBY presence opposed to any new developments the Tories will do less well, eg Residents Association have already picked up Uttlesford and Thaxted from the Tories in a posher part of Essex and expect similar RA and LD and Green gains in the South and East.
In the counties UKIP only got 4% though in 2017 and the Tories already have a big lead, so expect the Tories to do worse in the county elections than the district elections that have reported so far
It started years ago. The left and right having been knocking seven bell out of each other for years. The net result is we end up here.
It is all total bullshit. The wings of the Labour Party resemble two tramps in a park fighting over the dregs of a can of Tennants, which on closer inspection is half full of piss.
If you want progress, start at home. Stop calling Labour members evil.
The Tory candidate Jill Mortimer, who is expected to win in Hartlepool, has now arrived at Mill House leisure centre
Sensational LibDem gains in Sunderland. Expected Blue Labour gains in Sunderland and pretty much anywhere there have been results so far. Clearly a Green surge in pockets.
Someone needs to give the Pools teller's some speed up substances.
Jezziah: ha ha ha ha ha ha anus
1. HIs stance on Brexit (essentially everyone knew he would be for it but had to be seen to be against it) helped Labour in 2017;
2. You certainly couldn't claim he was a professional politician and didn't across as flashy;
3. Some of his policies were genuinely appealing to traditional left wing WWC voters;
4. His supporters were committed and so brought some energy to the party.
His issue in 2019 was not so much that he was useless per se etc, it was that Labour was seen as trying to hamstring Brexit by going along with the shenanigans of Soubry, Grieve etc. And who was recommending that sort of style? SKS.
SKS is an absolutely disaster for Labour. He risks seeing the party disintegrate as its constituent parts splinter off.
Maybe others on the left don't see it my way, the Labour right own the Labour party at the moment. They can be king of something slowly reduced to rubble or a political party that wants to be in government, in my view they hold all the cards and it is their move.
I am just here to try and enjoy (unsuccessfully so far) the wreckage.
Texas 6th CD special was fun (sort of, also painful for yours truly).
But this is classic.
@Nemtynakht Well it is good to hear that Starmer is at least appealing to someone (or winning their vote) problem is he seems to be turning more people off than he is winning over at the moment, making him a bad compromise.
@RochdalePioneers Your insults like your politics, are weak and outdated.
To be fair, it's not all his fault; the traditional Left in most major western democracies (particularly in Europe) has some very difficult choices. It's possible Labour could start to be eclipsed in England by the Greens in their core metropolitan areas, as per Germany, at the same time as the Tories squeeze them out in traditional working class bastions.
The problem is that if you stand for nothing you will fall for anything - without mass industrialised labour as its bedrock it really isn't clear what Labour's "glue" is anymore for the 21st century.
What he was is unconventional, which did seem to inspire a lot of people. Though nature of the job and all he actually became a lot more conventional as LOTO than given credit for. Or should have been criticised for.
Pete Burns(LAB) - 701
Reuben Michael Carr (CON) - 1,112
Gordon Castle (CON) - 1,834
Jenny Eckersley (LD) - 457
Julia Marion Lyford (LAB) - 485
Martin Philip Swinbank(GRN) - 1,671
GREEN GAIN AND CON HOLD
FWIW I think Corbyn by accident stumbled on the right formula in 2017. A left wing leader with a broad 1997 style manifesto. The problem was is that he had too much baggage to pull it off. A younger Adern type politician might have won.
By 2019 he had lost that broader appeal in his manifesto, impaled himself on the fence of Brexit and accrued a lot more baggage.
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1390543629408772096?s=20
The new statesman had a piece about it a week or so ago.
Especially so soon after your return from active sea duty!
Best example (I can think of) is probably a professional foul in football, all fouls in top level football are done by professionals, amateurs can't get on the pitch to compete in the games. Also a professional foul is actually worse to do than a regular foul... and an amateur can do a professional foul...
Starmer is an improvement for many including me, and as I say above I voted labour yesterday for the first time in many years. That is mainly because he is not an anti-Semitic 70s throwback.
The fact he is not very good, but more people like him than Corbyn should worry you not be an inspiration.
APOLOGY
We may have previously inadvertently given the impression that Labour's loss of Red Wall seats was part of a decades' long trend and not the fault of the leader. We now realise in fact that any future loss of Red Wall seats will be solely the fault of Keir Starmer. Thanks
https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1389837323848781825?s=19
Now have a break until the district and town and parish count at lunchtime
Tory 15529
Ld 349
Ind 2904
Labour: 8,589
Conservative: 15,529
LibDem 349
First Tory MP in Hartlepool in 56 years, first woman MP in Hartlepool ever.
16 point swing since GE
Cons 52%
Lab 29%
Ind 10%
RefUK 1%
LDs 1%
Others 6%
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1390548721243459584?s=20
The right successfully quashed a lot of the warm fuzzy feelings and connections I might have felt to Labour, the history would be sad to lose but I am bit nerdy in that regard, I imagine a lot of other younger lefties wouldn't be too bothered on that part.
Also the Labour right ensured he had too much baggage to win, were there wasn't baggage to be found or the 'baggage' didn't have a negative impact they were there to work hard to make sure it did.
I treat others how they treat me, because if you don't stand up for yourself you will just get walked over constantly. That isn't the life for me.
Perhaps the PM now that he has finished dragging his fiance around for the cameras can get in with telling Pools residents how much money their reward is. He needs to send them their bribe money and he needs to send it sharpish or they'll get their monkey gallows out again.
Seismic.
Seems appropriate, given how the Tories ate up the UKIP/Brexit vote.