Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

On a day when a poll had 59% saying Johnson’s “untrustworthy” the betting money edges to an earlier

245678

Comments

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477
    dixiedean said:

    Mail still plugging away....but it's not their lead:


    That seems odd to me.

    Is this is dummy swerve and a later edition has an absolute bombshell?
    The cars story is senseless. As I say upthread, my car already does the things it describes, presumably legally?
    It was 1986 in the pancake flat wastelands of Northern Alberta, when our driver pointed the car at the horizon and turned round to play a hand of cards with those in the back seats.
    Breezeblock on the throttle or early cruise control?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    The Project Manager for my current project is currently stuck in India. When they went over there, to visit family, the pandemic situation was a lot worse in the UK than in India. They received a positive test result today on the test required before flying back to quarantine in the UK, so have had to cancel their travel plans.

    Hopefully they'll not develop symptoms and stay well. Obviously I'm very concerned, though, because if they do fall ill it will be at a time when the pressure on Indian hospitals will be even higher than it is now.

    What I'm wondering is whether there's a prospect of the British government performing medical evacuations for British citizens, or residents, who fall ill in India during the present time when the Indian health system cannot cope. Has anything been said?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited April 2021
    Theresa May was my kind of liar politician.

    She only lied when she really needed to. And she almost got away with it.

    She lied for a purpose - and for what she believed was the public interest.

    Compare and contrast with Boris.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342

    dixiedean said:

    Mail still plugging away....but it's not their lead:


    That seems odd to me.

    Is this is dummy swerve and a later edition has an absolute bombshell?
    The cars story is senseless. As I say upthread, my car already does the things it describes, presumably legally?
    It was 1986 in the pancake flat wastelands of Northern Alberta, when our driver pointed the car at the horizon and turned round to play a hand of cards with those in the back seats.
    Breezeblock on the throttle or early cruise control?
    Cruise control. "Keep half an eye in front, son, eh?"
    I'd no idea.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    I like Johnson, he's a good party leader and Prime Minister, he's been a good politician for decades. I think he'll go down in history as one of our three most important postwar PMs (along with Attlee and Thatcher, Churchill's importance was during the war).

    But I would not for one second call him trustworthy. He's a politician and do you know how to tell when a politician is lying? Their lips are moving.

    I wouldn't call any PM we have had in my life "trustworthy". Every single one of them obfuscates, spins and does whatever they can. It's what we expect from politicians.

    So what do you make of the 35% of voters who think him trustworthy? It means their hopes for him delivering rejuvenation and the good old days to their rust belt towns are too high, and they will end up hating him as fraud?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    ping said:

    Theresa May was my kind of liar politician.

    She only lied when she really needed to. And she almost got away with it.

    She lied for a purpose - and for what she believed was the public interest.

    A dishevelled liar like Boris is safer - you know he isn't trustworthy.

    Smooth liars such as Blair and Cameron are more dangerous.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Bad news if you have a pet camel.

    "@PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Devi Sridhar says coronavirus can infect camels - and they could then infect humans"

    A former client of mine was a champion camel racer... he diversified his company into making drugs for camels...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703

    BBC News Press Team
    @BBCNewsPR
    ·
    5h
    On Wednesday 28th April the BBC will be airing a special day of coverage on the deepening coronavirus crisis in India.

    We’ll have reports, interviews, and analysis across BBC TV, radio, and online throughout the day.

    Trouble is they have spent the last week sounding like bloody Colonel Blimp lamenting losses in the backwaters of Empire.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    The Project Manager for my current project is currently stuck in India. When they went over there, to visit family, the pandemic situation was a lot worse in the UK than in India. They received a positive test result today on the test required before flying back to quarantine in the UK, so have had to cancel their travel plans.

    Hopefully they'll not develop symptoms and stay well. Obviously I'm very concerned, though, because if they do fall ill it will be at a time when the pressure on Indian hospitals will be even higher than it is now.

    What I'm wondering is whether there's a prospect of the British government performing medical evacuations for British citizens, or residents, who fall ill in India during the present time when the Indian health system cannot cope. Has anything been said?

    I know the Australian Prime Minister refused to help his cricketers out there.

    That I haven’t heard much about how it is in Pakistan or Bangladesh on the news. Which is odd.

    And the i has a story about if we should send our vaccines (quite possibly back) there.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Can you provide evidence for that serious allegation? May be even report it to the police
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles, can you please tell us, what terrible things HAVE you been called? Besides Chuck that is!

    Just inferred you preferred "Charles" cause that's your PB moniker.

    For all we know, your REAL name is Raoul . . .

    Wouldn’t you like to know...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    ping said:

    Theresa May was my kind of liar politician.

    She only lied when she really needed to. And she almost got away with it.

    She lied for a purpose - and for what she believed was the public interest.

    A dishevelled liar like Boris is safer - you know he isn't trustworthy.

    Smooth liars such as Blair and Cameron are more dangerous.
    Even if your theory stood up to scrutiny it isn't much of a recommendation.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The Project Manager for my current project is currently stuck in India. When they went over there, to visit family, the pandemic situation was a lot worse in the UK than in India. They received a positive test result today on the test required before flying back to quarantine in the UK, so have had to cancel their travel plans.

    Hopefully they'll not develop symptoms and stay well. Obviously I'm very concerned, though, because if they do fall ill it will be at a time when the pressure on Indian hospitals will be even higher than it is now.

    What I'm wondering is whether there's a prospect of the British government performing medical evacuations for British citizens, or residents, who fall ill in India during the present time when the Indian health system cannot cope. Has anything been said?

    Sorry for your colleague, hope they're ok.

    Very good questions. The sort that should be getting asked if our media had any perspective.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    "How callous Colorado cops left 73-year-old dementia sufferer in a cell for six hours after breaking her arm and dislocating her shoulder over $13 stolen groceries - and laughed as she cried out for a doctor"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9516971/Woman-dementia-73-sat-jail-cell-without-medical-care-SIX-HOURS-cops-laughed.html
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Leon said:

    Amazon Prime’s LEONARDO is a pretty good renaissance art drama if you fancy some fresco-n-frolics


    Googling the background I’m amazed to find there are only eight - eight! - undisputed paintings by Leonardo da Vinci

    No wonder a slightly crab dubious “ninth” work sold for $450m

    He was a famous procrastinator
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ping said:

    Theresa May was my kind of liar politician.

    She only lied when she really needed to. And she almost got away with it.

    She lied for a purpose - and for what she believed was the public interest.

    A dishevelled liar like Boris is safer - you know he isn't trustworthy.

    Smooth liars such as Blair and Cameron are more dangerous.
    Even if your theory stood up to scrutiny it isn't much of a recommendation.
    Why not?

    There's a certain kind of honesty in knowing that people are what they are, warts and all.

    People who pretend to be whiter than white, then turn out to be mendacious liars, that's more dishonest.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470

    ping said:

    Theresa May was my kind of liar politician.

    She only lied when she really needed to. And she almost got away with it.

    She lied for a purpose - and for what she believed was the public interest.

    A dishevelled liar like Boris is safer - you know he isn't trustworthy.

    Smooth liars such as Blair and Cameron are more dangerous.
    Even if your theory stood up to scrutiny it isn't much of a recommendation.
    Its not meant to be a recommendation.

    More of a world-weary resignation to the reality.

    I'd prefer a better quality of politician who would pay more attention to detail and less to plotting and scheming but I doubt they exist and perhaps they never did exist.

    And as the saying goes about countries getting the politicians they deserve.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,477

    ping said:

    Theresa May was my kind of liar politician.

    She only lied when she really needed to. And she almost got away with it.

    She lied for a purpose - and for what she believed was the public interest.

    A dishevelled liar like Boris is safer - you know he isn't trustworthy.

    Smooth liars such as Blair and Cameron are more dangerous.
    Messrs Bliar, Chameleon and Jokes-on, as they known by some.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Charles said:

    Bad news if you have a pet camel.

    "@PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Devi Sridhar says coronavirus can infect camels - and they could then infect humans"

    A former client of mine was a champion camel racer... he diversified his company into making drugs for camels...
    Very interesting. Did NOT know that camels like to get high.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    Current hotspots in the UK:

    Glasgow
    North Ayrshire
    Wakefield
    Kirklees
    Liverpool
    Flintshire
    Rutland
    Coventry
    Rugby
    Dover

    https://covid.joinzoe.com/data
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    edited April 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    edited April 2021

    ping said:

    Theresa May was my kind of liar politician.

    She only lied when she really needed to. And she almost got away with it.

    She lied for a purpose - and for what she believed was the public interest.

    A dishevelled liar like Boris is safer - you know he isn't trustworthy.

    Smooth liars such as Blair and Cameron are more dangerous.
    Even if your theory stood up to scrutiny it isn't much of a recommendation.
    Why not?

    There's a certain kind of honesty in knowing that people are what they are, warts and all.

    People who pretend to be whiter than white, then turn out to be mendacious liars, that's more dishonest.
    "There's a certain kind of honesty in knowing that people are "... dishonest (my precis).

    What an absolute crock...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703



    IshmaelZ said:

    Well said Mike, this is all trivial bullshit by people too desperate to scrape the barrel with ridiculous nonsense because they don't want to admit that the UK is going well. I have trust in the British public to see through all this mud slinging and vote based on principles and policies.

    From India we are seeing truly tragic images, over three thousand a day known deaths and rising fast. Images on our screens of funeral pyres because the crematoriums are overloaded and hospitals are turning the sick away because they have no oxyden. 😢

    In the European Union we see leaders one month on still arguing over who gets to sit in the big chair for a photo opportunity. Meanwhile two and a half thousand people a day are dying from Covid.

    In the USA Biden is taking this seriously, but still over 600 daily deaths and running into major resistance by antivaxxers.

    In the UK the pandemic is over, deaths have effectively stopped. So lets squabble over wallpaper the taxpayer hasn't been charged for and what someone may or may not have said in temper eight months ago.

    Some people have really lost their moral compass! We should be asking big questions like how can we help the likes of India out now that we've helped ourselves, not this myopic nonsense.

    The drunk driver's fallacy, that it is not possible to think about more than one thing at a time. And how do you justify wibbling about ufos an hour or so ago?
    IshmaelZ said:

    Well said Mike, this is all trivial bullshit by people too desperate to scrape the barrel with ridiculous nonsense because they don't want to admit that the UK is going well. I have trust in the British public to see through all this mud slinging and vote based on principles and policies.

    From India we are seeing truly tragic images, over three thousand a day known deaths and rising fast. Images on our screens of funeral pyres because the crematoriums are overloaded and hospitals are turning the sick away because they have no oxyden. 😢

    In the European Union we see leaders one month on still arguing over who gets to sit in the big chair for a photo opportunity. Meanwhile two and a half thousand people a day are dying from Covid.

    In the USA Biden is taking this seriously, but still over 600 daily deaths and running into major resistance by antivaxxers.

    In the UK the pandemic is over, deaths have effectively stopped. So lets squabble over wallpaper the taxpayer hasn't been charged for and what someone may or may not have said in temper eight months ago.

    Some people have really lost their moral compass! We should be asking big questions like how can we help the likes of India out now that we've helped ourselves, not this myopic nonsense.

    The drunk driver's fallacy, that it is not possible to think about more than one thing at a time. And how do you justify wibbling about ufos an hour or so ago?
    Its not a fallacy. The media, the questioning for ministers, the headlines, the front pages tend to be dominated by one story. Looking at the BBC News front page right now the headline 'big story' has a giant picture of Carrie and Boris from clap for carers and a headline about flat renovations. Underneath is a tiny picture of funeral pyres from India. Do you really think that priotisation is right? It seems pretty sick to me.

    Thousands of people a day are dying in the EU, thousands of people a day in India and its getting worse fast - this looks like being one of the worst humanitarian crises in all time and we could be helping - I know the country has sent oxygen to India but we should be grilling as to what more can be done if anything.

    People pretend to care about humanitarian crises when they stroke their own ego banging on about 0.7% but unfolding before our eyes is one of the worst crises I ever recall seeing, some of the most heartbreaking images we've seen, and all anyone wants to talk about is wallpaper and words said in a meeting eight months ago.

    Give me a break. Lets never hear from any of these imposters how much they care about humanitarianism ever again.
    What do you think we should do regarding India that has not yet happened?
    Its hard to know, because there's so little being asked about what's going on or what can be done to know if more can be done. For starters though.
    1. The CPAP machines etc bought early in the pandemic, rather than arguing about the fact that the tax situation was sorted for those making ventilators how about we recognise that we don't need them anymore and loan them to India to help out? We can then loan them from nation to nation that is going through spikes until this over.
    2. Oxygen: Can we do more to help?
    3. Dexamethasone or anything else: Do they need help? Can we help supply it?
    4. Others like Foxy etc may have more suggestions. If these big questions were being asked then maybe we might go somewhere rather than turning a blind eye to funeral pyres.
    I think leading with oxygen concentrators and non-invasive ventilators was brilliant, given that oxygen was the stress point.

    We have I think 30k ventilators available now, and the rapidly manufactured model was a modified emergency one. It sounds very suitable for some of the 13,400 made at speed to be sent to a less universal health system.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    ping said:

    Theresa May was my kind of liar politician.

    She only lied when she really needed to. And she almost got away with it.

    She lied for a purpose - and for what she believed was the public interest.

    A dishevelled liar like Boris is safer - you know he isn't trustworthy.

    Smooth liars such as Blair and Cameron are more dangerous.
    Even if your theory stood up to scrutiny it isn't much of a recommendation.
    Why not?

    There's a certain kind of honesty in knowing that people are what they are, warts and all.

    People who pretend to be whiter than white, then turn out to be mendacious liars, that's more dishonest.
    All liars are mendacious.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456

    Bad news if you have a pet camel.

    "@PoliticsForAlI
    NEW: Devi Sridhar says coronavirus can infect camels - and they could then infect humans"

    Wear a condom?
    I saw a paper some while back saying SARS-CoV-2 can infect over 80 species of mammals but cannot find the reference now. The ACE-2 receptor is pretty much ubiquitous in mammals.

    ACE-2 receptor in 410 vertebrate species, including 252 mammals: https://www.pnas.org/content/117/36/22311

    Species most susceptible theoretically to COVID: https://www.medicinenet.com/what_animals_can_get_and_spread_covid-19-news.htm

    Remember, though, the fact that animals might be able to get COVID from humans does not automatically mean either that they can infect humans, or that there would be community spread within that species.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    "How callous Colorado cops left 73-year-old dementia sufferer in a cell for six hours after breaking her arm and dislocating her shoulder over $13 stolen groceries - and laughed as she cried out for a doctor"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9516971/Woman-dementia-73-sat-jail-cell-without-medical-care-SIX-HOURS-cops-laughed.html

    This story is absolutely heartbreaking from start to finish.

    https://twitter.com/AdrienneLaw/status/1383520660345872384?s=19
    https://twitter.com/AdrienneLaw/status/1383628614265049090?s=19

    American cops are beyond the pale.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    It must have happened in the last few weeks if so because wiki etc still say China.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,456
    Andy_JS said:

    "How callous Colorado cops left 73-year-old dementia sufferer in a cell for six hours after breaking her arm and dislocating her shoulder over $13 stolen groceries - and laughed as she cried out for a doctor"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9516971/Woman-dementia-73-sat-jail-cell-without-medical-care-SIX-HOURS-cops-laughed.html

    We did this last thread
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    Worldometers.info thinks China is still bigger, 1.44 bn vs 1.39.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    China has a massive shortage of young women. Due to one child policy and concomitant female infanticide.
    Plus. Tiny families have become the cultural norm. There is even a shortage of housing for families as they haven't been built.
    This was a huge issue pre-Covid. Not so in India.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,470
    A Miami school has discouraged teachers from getting the Covid vaccine, saying any vaccinated employees will be barred from interacting with students.

    The Centner Academy, a fee-paying school, is located in Miami's Design District. Annual tuition begins at $15,160 (£10,898) for pre-school students and goes up to nearly $30,000 for middle school students, who are around 13-15 years old.

    Co-founder Leila Centner informed parents on Monday that, when possible, the academy's policy is to not employ anyone who has received a Covid-19 vaccine at this time, CBS Miami reported.

    In a letter last week to staff, first reported by the New York Times, Mrs Centner said teachers must notify the school if they had already received the jab.

    "We cannot allow recently vaccinated people to be near our students until more information is known," Mrs Centner wrote.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56905752
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    For the Californios among us (thinking esp. of Charles & RCS):

    How do you (or your family members) currently intend to vote on the upcoming CA gubernatorial recall election?

    #1 on whether or not to recall Gavin Newsom?

    #2 on who should replace him IF a majority votes to recall him?

    Second question is still premature as the field is NOT set, but will be a cast characters . . . in more ways than one . . .
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    MaxPB said:

    The Project Manager for my current project is currently stuck in India. When they went over there, to visit family, the pandemic situation was a lot worse in the UK than in India. They received a positive test result today on the test required before flying back to quarantine in the UK, so have had to cancel their travel plans.

    Hopefully they'll not develop symptoms and stay well. Obviously I'm very concerned, though, because if they do fall ill it will be at a time when the pressure on Indian hospitals will be even higher than it is now.

    What I'm wondering is whether there's a prospect of the British government performing medical evacuations for British citizens, or residents, who fall ill in India during the present time when the Indian health system cannot cope. Has anything been said?

    Ultimately they knowingly went to India during the pandemic. Loads of us have family in India that we'd like to visit, my mum has lost a brother and three cousins so far and she's devastated by it. They made their decision and I don't think it's fair on the rest of us who made the responsible decision not to travel for the government to bail them out.

    None of these people needed to go to India. No one *needs* to visit family in India, it's a choice, a poor one and frankly it's not our responsibility. As harsh as it sounds, they have made their bed, now they need to lie in it.
    You and I have agreed a lot previously on border infection control during the pandemic. Perhaps we would again if this wasn't someone I knew. But it is, and that makes it harder for me judge the rights and wrongs of it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    Worldometers.info thinks China is still bigger, 1.44 bn vs 1.39.
    Yes. As does every other website. Yet the BBC dude definitely said it. Perhaps an inference from recent trends?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080

    The Project Manager for my current project is currently stuck in India. When they went over there, to visit family, the pandemic situation was a lot worse in the UK than in India. They received a positive test result today on the test required before flying back to quarantine in the UK, so have had to cancel their travel plans.

    Hopefully they'll not develop symptoms and stay well. Obviously I'm very concerned, though, because if they do fall ill it will be at a time when the pressure on Indian hospitals will be even higher than it is now.

    What I'm wondering is whether there's a prospect of the British government performing medical evacuations for British citizens, or residents, who fall ill in India during the present time when the Indian health system cannot cope. Has anything been said?

    Sorry for your colleague, hope they're ok.

    Very good questions. The sort that should be getting asked if our media had any perspective.
    They probably aren't capable of asking the question in advance of having a British citizen denied medical treatment to ask it about.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,320
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    Japan and China halving in size is quite something. Unprecedented outside, well, plague, I guess
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,264
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    If most jobs are fully automated that will require a Universal Basic Income for most people, funded by a robot tax
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    If most jobs are fully automated that will require a Universal Basic Income for most people, funded by a robot tax
    "Tax robots, not people!"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    AIUI even sub Saharan Africa is now slowing fast in birthrate. As is most of the Muslim world. It is a human universal. You get a fridge, air con, a job and the internet, you don’t want 8 kids
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    AIUI even sub Saharan Africa is now slowing fast in birthrate. As is most of the Muslim world. It is a human universal. You get a fridge, air con, a job and the internet, you don’t want 8 kids
    Tell that to the Daily Mail.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,264
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    Japan and China halving in size is quite something. Unprecedented outside, well, plague, I guess
    Which also means democratic, free market India could end up the largest superpower by 2100, not China
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    Yes, I do believe it, because most of the population growth is already baked in. Half of Nigerians are aged under 18 at present. That is a tremendous proportion of women entering the age of peak fertility. The same is true of most of Africa.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    edited April 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    If most jobs are fully automated that will require a Universal Basic Income for most people, funded by a robot tax
    Yodeling Robot by Ed Sanders
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDPSdoGHT_g

    "He was a yodeling robot / In love with Dolly Parton"
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    AIUI even sub Saharan Africa is now slowing fast in birthrate. As is most of the Muslim world. It is a human universal. You get a fridge, air con, a job and the internet, you don’t want 8 kids
    Tell that to the Daily Mail.
    Fertility rate: 'Jaw-dropping' global crash in children being born https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53409521
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,585
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    If most jobs are fully automated that will require a Universal Basic Income for most people, funded by a robot tax
    According to Worldometers, China still comfortably biggest.
    But then Worldometers is owned by the Chinese.

    Also according to Worldometers, while ss-African growth rates are eyewatering, fertility rates are - very slowly - declining.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    AIUI even sub Saharan Africa is now slowing fast in birthrate. As is most of the Muslim world. It is a human universal. You get a fridge, air con, a job and the internet, you don’t want 8 kids
    However. Those 8 kids have survived. And are culturally attuned to having 8 each. Even if they only have 4 that is 32x in two generations. So there is a long lag of exponential growth.
    Then the elastic snaps back.
    Like China.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    Japan and China halving in size is quite something. Unprecedented outside, well, plague, I guess
    Which also means democratic, free market India could end up the largest superpower by 2100, not China

    The next global superpower after China (c 2020-2050) will be the country or culture that best understands and harnesses robots and AI, because they are coming, and the successful use of them might have nothing to do with national size or scale

    Heck, it could be the Jews, in Israel, which would be a brilliant piece of historical irony, by Jehovah
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    Japan and China halving in size is quite something. Unprecedented outside, well, plague, I guess
    Which also means democratic, free market India could end up the largest superpower by 2100, not China
    Well, the current crisis may end up being a test of the commitment to democracy in India. The news about tweets critical of the government being censored is not good.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,677
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    Yes, I do believe it, because most of the population growth is already baked in. Half of Nigerians are aged under 18 at present. That is a tremendous proportion of women entering the age of peak fertility. The same is true of most of Africa.
    Have you been to Egypt?! The country is already vastly overpopulated for its fertility (and economically hindered by Islam). The idea it could support 200m people is insane

    War, plague or famine would intervene, possibly all three. Add in a dash of climate change rendering the Nile Valley infertile

    Brace
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,264
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    Japan and China halving in size is quite something. Unprecedented outside, well, plague, I guess
    Which also means democratic, free market India could end up the largest superpower by 2100, not China

    The next global superpower after China (c 2020-2050) will be the country or culture that best understands and harnesses robots and AI, because they are coming, and the successful use of them might have nothing to do with national size or scale

    Heck, it could be the Jews, in Israel, which would be a brilliant piece of historical irony, by Jehovah
    Israel is already highly technologically advanced but unless India or China completely fail to engage in the AI revolution hard to see that they will not be the main superpowers of the 21st century, alongside a relatively less dominant USA
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    No I don't believe it, but the population growth in recent years in sub-Saharan Africa is pretty crazy.
    Japan and China halving in size is quite something. Unprecedented outside, well, plague, I guess
    Which also means democratic, free market India could end up the largest superpower by 2100, not China
    Free market India?
    Spent much time in India or China?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    Yes, I do believe it, because most of the population growth is already baked in. Half of Nigerians are aged under 18 at present. That is a tremendous proportion of women entering the age of peak fertility. The same is true of most of Africa.
    Have you been to Egypt?! The country is already vastly overpopulated for its fertility (and economically hindered by Islam). The idea it could support 200m people is insane

    War, plague or famine would intervene, possibly all three. Add in a dash of climate change rendering the Nile Valley infertile

    Brace
    The AI-controlled robots will find a way to irrigate the desert and turn the Sahara into the breadbasket of Africa.

    Perhaps.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,342
    edited April 2021

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    Yes, I do believe it, because most of the population growth is already baked in. Half of Nigerians are aged under 18 at present. That is a tremendous proportion of women entering the age of peak fertility. The same is true of most of Africa.
    Have you been to Egypt?! The country is already vastly overpopulated for its fertility (and economically hindered by Islam). The idea it could support 200m people is insane

    War, plague or famine would intervene, possibly all three. Add in a dash of climate change rendering the Nile Valley infertile

    Brace
    The AI-controlled robots will find a way to irrigate the desert and turn the Sahara into the breadbasket of Africa.

    Perhaps.
    If not. That's a lot of folk to build a gigantic 3-D triangle to the Supreme Robot Lord.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "How callous Colorado cops left 73-year-old dementia sufferer in a cell for six hours after breaking her arm and dislocating her shoulder over $13 stolen groceries - and laughed as she cried out for a doctor"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9516971/Woman-dementia-73-sat-jail-cell-without-medical-care-SIX-HOURS-cops-laughed.html

    We did this last thread
    I wanted to talk about it some more.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,080
    The guidance seems pretty clear that there won't be any repatriation for British citizens unable to receive medical treatment for Covid in India, because it's a pandemic and you are told not to travel.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-deal-with-a-crisis-overseas
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    ydoethur said:


    *Waits expectantly for @Dura_Ace to chime in with a much higher tally*

    That is a stalwart effort that I would not denigrate unless it was done on a cheap bike.

    However... miles have no place in any discussion of cycling. Km only or tais-toi.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165

    The guidance seems pretty clear that there won't be any repatriation for British citizens unable to receive medical treatment for Covid in India, because it's a pandemic and you are told not to travel.

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-deal-with-a-crisis-overseas

    Harsh but fair.
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,058
    It's worth noting countries with a culture of immigration will fare better when birth rates fall significantly below replacement levels. Japan is leading the way with a shrinking population, but many others (South Korea, China, some European countries) will follow. Once the wheels are set in motion it's very hard to reverse, even if there is a long lag before it shows up in headline population numbers.

    The US and UK, for example, seem much less likely to see significant population declines, even with stricter immigration controls than at present.

    South Asia and much of Africa will dominate global population growth, so it wouldn't surprise me if the likes of Nigeria become much more significant economically and politically as the century progresses, just as China has done in the recent past.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    Yes, I do believe it, because most of the population growth is already baked in. Half of Nigerians are aged under 18 at present. That is a tremendous proportion of women entering the age of peak fertility. The same is true of most of Africa.
    Have you been to Egypt?! The country is already vastly overpopulated for its fertility (and economically hindered by Islam). The idea it could support 200m people is insane

    War, plague or famine would intervene, possibly all three. Add in a dash of climate change rendering the Nile Valley infertile

    Brace
    Yes I have.

    I am not suggesting that there won't be social problems, just that much of that population expansion is already baked in.

    Countries with declining populations will have different social problems, and probably a good deal of immigration from countries with surplus population.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,354
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    If most jobs are fully automated that will require a Universal Basic Income for most people, funded by a robot tax
    Then the robots get pissed off. "No taxation without representation." And instead of throwing tea into Boston Harbor or throwing themselves under the king's horse, they will simply just turn off the mechanised food supply they control.

    And wait six months for the human race to expire.

    Sweet dreams....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,264

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "China set to report first population decline in five decades

    Officials are preparing response to census data that should have been released weeks ago"

    https://www.ft.com/content/008ea78a-8bc1-4954-b283-700608d3dc6c

    One of the odd by-products of covid was my learning that India is now the biggest country on earth by population (according to the BBC, and I don’t think they were making a provocative point - they really believed it). When did this monumental event happen? I didn’t notice
    If you project current trends, then Nigeria will have a bigger population than China.

    image
    I don’t believe it. Do you?

    Mad extrapolations

    However, madness beckons, whatever route the world takes. By 2100 it seems likely to me that most jobs will be entirely automated and most decisions will be made by Artificial Intelligence far superior to our own

    By then the idea of “nations” will probably seem utterly surreal
    If most jobs are fully automated that will require a Universal Basic Income for most people, funded by a robot tax
    Then the robots get pissed off. "No taxation without representation." And instead of throwing tea into Boston Harbor or throwing themselves under the king's horse, they will simply just turn off the mechanised food supply they control.

    And wait six months for the human race to expire.

    Sweet dreams....
    Only if they have developed a consciousness by then.

    Otherwise it is the corporations that control them that would be taxed

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,231

    The Project Manager for my current project is currently stuck in India. When they went over there, to visit family, the pandemic situation was a lot worse in the UK than in India. They received a positive test result today on the test required before flying back to quarantine in the UK, so have had to cancel their travel plans.

    Hopefully they'll not develop symptoms and stay well. Obviously I'm very concerned, though, because if they do fall ill it will be at a time when the pressure on Indian hospitals will be even higher than it is now.

    What I'm wondering is whether there's a prospect of the British government performing medical evacuations for British citizens, or residents, who fall ill in India during the present time when the Indian health system cannot cope. Has anything been said?

    I wish them the best, but the pandemic situation being a lot worse in the UK than in India is a reason not to travel there, not a justification for doing so.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,920
    Ratters said:

    It's worth noting countries with a culture of immigration will fare better when birth rates fall significantly below replacement levels. Japan is leading the way with a shrinking population, but many others (South Korea, China, some European countries) will follow. Once the wheels are set in motion it's very hard to reverse, even if there is a long lag before it shows up in headline population numbers.

    The US and UK, for example, seem much less likely to see significant population declines, even with stricter immigration controls than at present.

    South Asia and much of Africa will dominate global population growth, so it wouldn't surprise me if the likes of Nigeria become much more significant economically and politically as the century progresses, just as China has done in the recent past.

    Very few South Asian countries have big TFRs anymore. India - yes India - is at just 2.2. That's a smidgen above replacement. Bangladesh is 2.0. That's below.

    Only Pakistan, of the large countries in the region, has a high TFR.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,463
    I see the Daily Mail still on about the "gold" wall paper and Carrie... the story that keeps on giving to middle england

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9518183/Boriss-despairing-cry-Downing-St-aides-lavish-new-decor.html
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,165
    edited April 2021
    "Covid in India: Why is the government playing down the crisis? - BBC Newsnight"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrr0rZLHqv0
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,548
    Andy_JS said:

    "Covid in India: Why is the government playing down the crisis? - BBC Newsnight"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrr0rZLHqv0

    Why? Putinist playbook.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895

    ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    "Corruption"

    He was given an award by Theresa May's government in 2017 and 2018
    He made a donation to Theresa May's constituency office.
    He gave £100,000 to the anti-Brexit Stronger In campaign.

    Nothing awarded to him by the pro-Brexit Johnson government on that list.

    Is that what you've got?
    Corruption is a very strong thing to allege with such little evidence that it is. It may or may not be, it doesn’t look like it to me. Labour and the Mail, for different reasons are trying to keep the story alive but in the absence of anything concrete I can’t see it going anywhere. It felt like Tuesdays Mail front page was simply trying to keep the story going and today’s is even more threadbare.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    Agreed.
    But they've just voted not to do so in respect of a large number of those leaseholders.

    And this is a financial burden imposed by government legislation (as well as the incompetence and/or deliberate corner cutting by developers).

    It would have required an extraordinary degree if prescience for leaseholders to be aware of the problem, and yet as it stands, many if them are now required to pick up the bill.
    (Legislation means they cannot now ignore the problem, even if they wished to.)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    The awful thing is, from the few known facts, that the Prime Minister was covertly under an obligation to at least one tycoon for a period, and yet nobody at No10 appears to have thought this mattered, except Dominic Cummings. https://twitter.com/joemurphylondon/status/1387269861097701380
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    I think it’s actually easier than that. The government’s own health and safety laws were being deliberately flouted by their own compliance teams, who were giving the incorrect advice as a result.

    So bluntly, it is the government’s fault.

    That’s not a partisan thing. It’s been happening for years under various governments. But it is a case where HMG needs to hold their hands up and accept liability.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    “The prime minister approaches truth the way a toddler handles broccoli. He understands the idea that it contains some goodness, but it will touch his lips only if a higher authority compels it there.” https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/28/court-king-boris-brexit-covid-prime-minister-politics
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Why Boris Johnson’s Sleazy-Does-It Water Torture Shows No Sign Of Ending Soon

    The latest WaughZone


    https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-let-rip-sleaze_uk_60889589e4b046202700c54c?6t
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    Agreed.
    But they've just voted not to do so in respect of a large number of those leaseholders.

    And this is a financial burden imposed by government legislation (as well as the incompetence and/or deliberate corner cutting by developers).

    It would have required an extraordinary degree if prescience for leaseholders to be aware of the problem, and yet as it stands, many if them are now required to pick up the bill.
    (Legislation means they cannot now ignore the problem, even if they wished to.)
    Yes. I’m curious as to why they have done that. (My Dad’s estate owns an impacted flat and, although it isn’t a huge amount of money, it’s a pain because we can’t wind up the estate until it is resolved)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    I think it’s actually easier than that. The government’s own health and safety laws were being deliberately flouted by their own compliance teams, who were giving the incorrect advice as a result.

    So bluntly, it is the government’s fault.

    That’s not a partisan thing. It’s been happening for years under various governments. But it is a case where HMG needs to hold their hands up and accept liability.
    I haven’t dug into the detail. But if there is a guilty party they should pay
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,344
    Good morning everybody. Not as bright here today.
    Our blue-tit has started to incubate her eggs; we think seven. So should see some nestlings in a couple of weeks.

    In other news, I am struck by the Guardian's comment on the challenge to Arlene Foster: viz
    “Her intransigence, petulance, arrogance, lack of generosity, and political myopia have been catastrophic for unionism,” tweeted a social policy professor at Ulster University.

    Does that mean that in the DUP rebel's opinion she's been too accommodating?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,575
    Taz said:

    "Corruption"

    He was given an award by Theresa May's government in 2017 and 2018
    He made a donation to Theresa May's constituency office.
    He gave £100,000 to the anti-Brexit Stronger In campaign.

    Nothing awarded to him by the pro-Brexit Johnson government on that list.

    Is that what you've got?
    Corruption is a very strong thing to allege with such little evidence that it is. It may or may not be, it doesn’t look like it to me. Labour and the Mail, for different reasons are trying to keep the story alive but in the absence of anything concrete I can’t see it going anywhere. It felt like Tuesdays Mail front page was simply trying to keep the story going and today’s is even more threadbare.
    It is not just Labour and the Mail keeping the story alive. The government is complicit too, by releasing information in bite-size pieces that raise more questions than are answered. If this is all above board, the whole story could and should have been released earlier and any declarations of gifts duly registered. So far as I can see, it has not yet been officially confirmed by the government or party that Lord Brownlow is the donor in question, even though Brownlow has come forward himself.

    Why? Either there is more to the story or it is a dead cat, but from what is it a distraction?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    edited April 2021
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    I think it’s actually easier than that. The government’s own health and safety laws were being deliberately flouted by their own compliance teams, who were giving the incorrect advice as a result.

    So bluntly, it is the government’s fault.

    That’s not a partisan thing. It’s been happening for years under various governments. But it is a case where HMG needs to hold their hands up and accept liability.
    I haven’t dug into the detail. But if there is a guilty party they should pay
    Well, others may have done more so than me. But AIUI the issue at Grenfell was that although it was known the materials were not approved for use in such a project, the relevant department of the government told the builders that was OK as the project as a whole could be certified as safe and compliant even if the individual components could not be.

    You do not have to be a trained lawyer to see the pitfalls in that argument. That is advice that should never have been given.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,895
    Green MP Caroline Lucas says Boris Johnson is a “serial liar” who shows a “Trumpian disdain for the rules”. #today
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1387283224645210114
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,480
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    I think it’s actually easier than that. The government’s own health and safety laws were being deliberately flouted by their own compliance teams, who were giving the incorrect advice as a result.

    So bluntly, it is the government’s fault.

    That’s not a partisan thing. It’s been happening for years under various governments. But it is a case where HMG needs to hold their hands up and accept liability.
    I haven’t dug into the detail. But if there is a guilty party they should pay
    I don't think the Grenfell tower inquiry has reported yet, but the testimony from how the manufacturers conducted their fire tests was quite shocking. I can see some law suits or even prosecutions there.

    If not negligent though the leaseholders should pay. Property ownership has liabilities as well as asset price rises.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    I think it’s actually easier than that. The government’s own health and safety laws were being deliberately flouted by their own compliance teams, who were giving the incorrect advice as a result.

    So bluntly, it is the government’s fault.

    That’s not a partisan thing. It’s been happening for years under various governments. But it is a case where HMG needs to hold their hands up and accept liability.
    I haven’t dug into the detail. But if there is a guilty party they should pay
    Well, others may have done more so than me. But AIUI the issue at Grenfell was that although it was known the materials were not approved for use in such a project, the relevant department of the government told the builders that was OK as the project as a whole could be certified as safe and compliant even if the individual components could not be.

    You do not have to be a trained lawyer to see the pitfalls in that argument. That is advice that should never have been given.
    That will only be partial responsibility though. The developer has an obligation to use qualifying materials regardless of informal guidance.

    The problem is the developers will have been an SPV that will have since been wound down
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Scott_xP said:

    Green MP Caroline Lucas says Boris Johnson is a “serial liar” who shows a “Trumpian disdain for the rules”. #today
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1387283224645210114

    Well I, for one, am stunned that a political opponent would make such a statement,

    I’m sure people up and down the country are hanging on her every word and are waiting for her next proclamation on the matter which I’m sure will be equally thoughtful and considered.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162

    Good morning everybody. Not as bright here today.
    Our blue-tit has started to incubate her eggs; we think seven. So should see some nestlings in a couple of weeks.

    In other news, I am struck by the Guardian's comment on the challenge to Arlene Foster: viz
    “Her intransigence, petulance, arrogance, lack of generosity, and political myopia have been catastrophic for unionism,” tweeted a social policy professor at Ulster University.

    Does that mean that in the DUP rebel's opinion she's been too accommodating?

    NEVER
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    I think it’s actually easier than that. The government’s own health and safety laws were being deliberately flouted by their own compliance teams, who were giving the incorrect advice as a result.

    So bluntly, it is the government’s fault.

    That’s not a partisan thing. It’s been happening for years under various governments. But it is a case where HMG needs to hold their hands up and accept liability.
    I haven’t dug into the detail. But if there is a guilty party they should pay
    I don't think the Grenfell tower inquiry has reported yet, but the testimony from how the manufacturers conducted their fire tests was quite shocking. I can see some law suits or even prosecutions there.

    If not negligent though the leaseholders should pay. Property ownership has liabilities as well as asset price rises.
    Hold on - even if the government and builders were not negligent, it depends on the lease. Aren’t external repairs usually the responsibility of the freeholder, not the leaseholder?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    I think it’s actually easier than that. The government’s own health and safety laws were being deliberately flouted by their own compliance teams, who were giving the incorrect advice as a result.

    So bluntly, it is the government’s fault.

    That’s not a partisan thing. It’s been happening for years under various governments. But it is a case where HMG needs to hold their hands up and accept liability.
    I haven’t dug into the detail. But if there is a guilty party they should pay
    I don't think the Grenfell tower inquiry has reported yet, but the testimony from how the manufacturers conducted their fire tests was quite shocking. I can see some law suits or even prosecutions there.

    If not negligent though the leaseholders should pay. Property ownership has liabilities as well as asset price rises.
    Except that arguably it should be the freeholder not the leaseholder.

    But it’s a change in government policy that is burdening these individuals with a life changing liability. That’s unjust.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Scott_xP said:


    ...

    That’s up,to the standards of Brant, the physical cartoonist from The Day Today.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Green MP Caroline Lucas says Boris Johnson is a “serial liar” who shows a “Trumpian disdain for the rules”. #today
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1387283224645210114

    Well I, for one, am stunned that a political opponent would make such a statement,

    I’m sure people up and down the country are hanging on her every word and are waiting for her next proclamation on the matter which I’m sure will be equally thoughtful and considered.
    To be fair I’ve been fairly surprised over the last few years how reliant on cliche many of our politicians are.

    “He’s like that bad man over there” seems to be the best that many of them can do
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The consequences of this will be interesting.
    As well as financially devastating for a very large number of people.

    Vote to protect leaseholders from cladding costs fails despite Tory rebellion
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/apr/27/vote-to-protect-leaseholders-from-cladding-costs-fails-despite-tory-rebellion

    It’s a difficult one this

    On the assumption (not given) that everyone has acted within the law and in good faith it seems very harsh - and financially devastating - to make leaseholders pay.

    And yet, if freeholders have followed the regulations it is tough to make them pay as well. And providing the manufacturers were making to the required standards then they haven’t broken any rules either.

    It seems to me that this is somewhere the government should step in as the insurer of last resort.
    I think it’s actually easier than that. The government’s own health and safety laws were being deliberately flouted by their own compliance teams, who were giving the incorrect advice as a result.

    So bluntly, it is the government’s fault.

    That’s not a partisan thing. It’s been happening for years under various governments. But it is a case where HMG needs to hold their hands up and accept liability.
    I haven’t dug into the detail. But if there is a guilty party they should pay
    I don't think the Grenfell tower inquiry has reported yet, but the testimony from how the manufacturers conducted their fire tests was quite shocking. I can see some law suits or even prosecutions there.

    If not negligent though the leaseholders should pay. Property ownership has liabilities as well as asset price rises.
    Hold on - even if the government and builders were not negligent, it depends on the lease. Aren’t external repairs usually the responsibility of the freeholder, not the leaseholder?
    Freeholders are arguing that it is general maintenance covered by the service charge rather than their responsibility

    Basically the government just needs to split the pie in a totally arbitrary way so that everyone bears some of the cost, including themselves, and then impose it. Putting all of the cost on any one group without evidence of negligence is unfair.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,162
    Looks like labour have Lisa Nandy hitting the airwaves this morning. She’s a far more competent performer than most they put out.
This discussion has been closed.