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Johnny Mercer has given so much ammunition to critics of Boris Johnson – politicalbetting.com

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  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Nothing is forever, but I think that Johnson's position is extraordinarily strong compared to his predecessors for a number of reasons.

    Firstly, we have the example of the purged rebels in 2019. I think that this event blew a massive hole in our constitution, which we have not yet fully appreciated. It increases the power of the party leaders over their MPs to an intolerable level.

    Secondly, we have the electoral success of 2019. Until Johnson trounces Starmer in 2023 we can't be sure how much was due to Brexit, Corbyn or Johnson, of course, but it's still a factor in his favour.

    Thirdly, enough people, enough of the time, are willing to be fooled by the Boris bonhomie of his personal reality distortion bubble. Lies and broken promises that would mortally wound anyone else can, mostly, be waved away. Mercer is an exception, not the rule.

    Fourthly, Johnson delivered The Jab. I do not think there is any precedent for a government delivering on a policy so successfully and so universally popular as the vaccination program. I have loads of criticisms of Johnson's handling of Covid, but if he goes ahead with the June 21st unlocking, then Covid largely becomes a foreign news story, and Johnson becomes someone who gets things done and keeps people safe - a powerful pair of attributes.

    Fifthly, there is a sense that he is England's national champion. The thing about national identity is that it's not chosen. One doesn't decide to be English. Identity politics trumps many of the normal rules of politics because any criticism of Johnson becomes by extension a criticism of the nation and of the people of that nation. This might even save him were the Scots to vote for independence.

    Sixthly, he is not encumbered by any ideological principle. There is no such thing as Borisism, except for a series of bon mots, that opposition to him might define itself against. He is for popular things and against unpopular things.

    Inevitably, Johnson's leadership will come to an end. Eventually. But I think his position is uniquely strong in the history of British Prime Ministers since at least the Great Reform Act. He has the job for as long as he wants it.

    There's a seventh resaon, perhaps the most important of all. The government is spending an amazing amount of borrowed money, beyond all previous peacetime records, and the financial markets are not panicking. If people were being forced to take the economic hit from the epidemic, as has happened in a lot of developing countries, things would be very different.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    He thought he was on the winning team
    He thought he was indispensable to the winning team.
    If you make yourself indispensable you can’t be promoted
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Jonathan said:

    I posted yesterday that our PM is widely held to be a rogue, but for many people a lovable one. Once the 'lovable' goes his fall may well be swift, long and hard.

    And that is the point

    Boris is popular and seems immune to the accusations of sleaze

    However, his end will either be swift, or long and hard, it cannot be both

    It can. He can fall from office swiftly and then have his reputation trashed over a number of years as people speak out.
    Boris is vulnerable because, as I rarely tire of pointing out, he ran on Labour's 2017 platform against previous Conservative governments. Sooner or later, Conservative MPs will notice, although right now he has the cover of the Covid pandemic and Brexit.

    I suggested during the campaign that supporters of both sides will need to reverse ferret as a Conservative government enacted measures that supporters had previously condemned and opponents had campaigned for but that did not happen. It just matters he has won. The football supporters view of politics: the blue team won; the red team lost.

    But it may be that Boris retires before he is pushed.

    Mercer raises the question of Boris's integrity. Can his word be relied on? No, of course not. Does Boris lie? I'm not sure. It often seems more that Boris is careless of whether any statement is true or false provided it helps him win; then it can be discarded, again without reference to truth or falsehood.

    Peter Oborne's book, The Assault on Truth: Boris Johnson, Donald Trump and the Emergence of a New Moral Barbarism, takes a different view. Perhaps Oborne is right. Here is its, presumably sympathetic to the Prime Minister, ConHome review:
    https://www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2021/02/oborne-condemns-johnson-as-a-liar-and-cannot-understand-why-many-voters-believe-the-pm-is-telling-the-truth.html

    ETA The Guardian, presumably less sympathetic. You can google for the Mail's review (or can you?).
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/03/the-assault-on-truth-by-peter-oborne-review-boris-johnsons-lies
    That you keep saying he ran on Labours 2017 manifesto doesn't make it true.

    Labour 2017 pledged to nationalise entire industries. Boris in 2019 had no interest whatsoever in doing that.

    Same for many other things. If Labour 2017 had been "spend a bit more money, hire some extra cops" then it would have been a very different manifesto.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    This will go down well... I’d call it “overreach”... white bread, butter, jam, sugar, chocolate all on the naughty list

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9497923/British-diet-white-bread-butter-chocolate-sending-early-grave-researchers-say.html

    Fruit juice will surprise people.
    Have they distinguished between different types of sugar? My understanding was fructose was ok but others less so.

    In any event they’ve just noted correlation. Someone who has a glass of orange juice with a full English breakfast every day... I suspect it’s not the orange juice that is the issue
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Britain risks destroying trust with Australia as it tries to secure a post-Brexit trade deal, after the UK trade secretary’s allies were accused of launching an “unprovoked attack” on her counterpart on the eve of talks in London.

    Trade experts said the reported comments about the Australian trade minister, Dan Tehan, by allies of Liz Truss were “bizarre” and “an unfortunate but serious setback for what should have been friendly negotiations”.

    The Australian government opted not to return fire on the undiplomatic comments on Wednesday, with Tehan declining to respond.

    But Dr Jeffrey Wilson, the research director of the Perth USAsia Centre at the University of Western Australia, said the reported remarks would “damage trust between the ministers, which is essential if they are to work together to direct and shape the progress of the negotiating teams”.

    “This ‘backgrounding’ – which includes unprovoked ad hominem directed against the Australian trade minister – is bizarre,” Wilson told the Guardian.

    “In nearly 20 years working on trade negotiations, I have never seen personal attacks deployed as a negotiating tactic. It is an unfortunate but serious setback for what should have been friendly negotiations.”

    What is the attack? The quotes in the article are he’s a bit slow to move so we are going to put him in an uncomfortable chair.

    Pathetic and childish perhaps but hardly an “unprovoked attack”
    Nevertheless, the Daily Express is now on the case:

    Brexit LIVE: Fury as Liz Truss 'disrespects' Australian trade chief - talks on brink
    You disrespect me, I’ll put my Dad on you.

    God give me strength!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200

    Nothing is forever, but I think that Johnson's position is extraordinarily strong compared to his predecessors for a number of reasons.

    Firstly, we have the example of the purged rebels in 2019. I think that this event blew a massive hole in our constitution, which we have not yet fully appreciated. It increases the power of the party leaders over their MPs to an intolerable level.

    Secondly, we have the electoral success of 2019. Until Johnson trounces Starmer in 2023 we can't be sure how much was due to Brexit, Corbyn or Johnson, of course, but it's still a factor in his favour.

    Thirdly, enough people, enough of the time, are willing to be fooled by the Boris bonhomie of his personal reality distortion bubble. Lies and broken promises that would mortally wound anyone else can, mostly, be waved away. Mercer is an exception, not the rule.

    Fourthly, Johnson delivered The Jab. I do not think there is any precedent for a government delivering on a policy so successfully and so universally popular as the vaccination program. I have loads of criticisms of Johnson's handling of Covid, but if he goes ahead with the June 21st unlocking, then Covid largely becomes a foreign news story, and Johnson becomes someone who gets things done and keeps people safe - a powerful pair of attributes.

    Fifthly, there is a sense that he is England's national champion. The thing about national identity is that it's not chosen. One doesn't decide to be English. Identity politics trumps many of the normal rules of politics because any criticism of Johnson becomes by extension a criticism of the nation and of the people of that nation. This might even save him were the Scots to vote for independence.

    Sixthly, he is not encumbered by any ideological principle. There is no such thing as Borisism, except for a series of bon mots, that opposition to him might define itself against. He is for popular things and against unpopular things.

    Inevitably, Johnson's leadership will come to an end. Eventually. But I think his position is uniquely strong in the history of British Prime Ministers since at least the Great Reform Act. He has the job for as long as he wants it.

    Excellent post. My view is Johnson is quite likely to be PM for all or most of the 20s. The main risk (for him) is the economy and the loss of drama once we get past Brexit/Covid and into the long dreary hangover. That might change things and it's why I'm not giving the Cons the next GE just yet. Let's see how it all looks a year from now.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    So is the complaint that Mercer should have known that the PM is a lair and therefore should not have complained? The problem is that the PM is a liar who is throwing yet another group (army veterans) under the bus having lied about a pledge he had no intention of keeping. Again. So it is truly entertaining that the blame is being aimed at the former army Captain doing his job with honour instead of the repeatedly sacked liar.
    Yes, you are starting to get the idea.
    Understood. So your complaint isn't a PM who lied to army veterans that he would stop them being thrown under the bus. Your complaint is that an honourable man trying to do his job on behalf of his former comrades didn't quit earlier and make no attempt to help them.
    No, I will try to explain how it works. Boris stood for the leadership. In doing so he was asked a lot of questions about a lot of things and expressed views on them. His answers no doubt reflected his opinion on many of those things but were also skillfully designed to expand the tent of his supporters so that he could win. This is called politics.

    Some who came on board because of those views, such as Mercer, were expecting action on those views. But a PM can only fight so many battles at one time. Boris had first to deal with getting Brexit through and then deal with Covid. It has been all consuming for his government. Those who have an agenda that falls within those priorities, such as some of Patel's plans, have made progress. Those whose agenda did not fall within that have found themselves on the back burner. This is government. It's what happens.

    To ask if this makes Boris a liar is really looking down the wrong end of the telescope. He has expressed aspirations that he has not achieved. He is trying to run a government in a time of absolute crisis. Mercer is painfully naïve. Well meaning and genuinely motivated but naïve.
    He hardly needed to be "made into a liar", given his track record since a young age! The most striking - and most damning - feature of johnson's CV is the string of critical verdicts from pretty much everyone that has had very close contact with him, from schoolteachers through employers through close work colleagues through former partners through some of his children.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,920
    .
    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    I posted yesterday that our PM is widely held to be a rogue, but for many people a lovable one. Once the 'lovable' goes his fall may well be swift, long and hard.

    And that is the point

    Boris is popular and seems immune to the accusations of sleaze

    However, his end will either be swift, or long and hard, it cannot be both

    It can. He can fall from office swiftly and then have his reputation trashed over a number of years as people speak out.
    Does Boris lie? I'm not sure.
    LOL
    Boris says things which are not true. Routinely. But I think the word "lie" implies knowledge and perhaps even planning; certainly a degree of intention. Whether Boris even recognises a distinction between truth and falsehood is what I'm not sure of. He says whatever is convenient or expedient, without even questioning its veracity. At least, that is how it seems to me.
  • Jonathan said:

    I posted yesterday that our PM is widely held to be a rogue, but for many people a lovable one. Once the 'lovable' goes his fall may well be swift, long and hard.

    And that is the point

    Boris is popular and seems immune to the accusations of sleaze

    However, his end will either be swift, or long and hard, it cannot be both

    It can. He can fall from office swiftly and then have his reputation trashed over a number of years as people speak out.
    Boris is vulnerable because, as I rarely tire of pointing out, he ran on Labour's 2017 platform against previous Conservative governments. Sooner or later, Conservative MPs will notice, although right now he has the cover of the Covid pandemic and Brexit.

    I suggested during the campaign that supporters of both sides will need to reverse ferret as a Conservative government enacted measures that supporters had previously condemned and opponents had campaigned for but that did not happen. It just matters he has won. The football supporters view of politics: the blue team won; the red team lost.

    But it may be that Boris retires before he is pushed.

    Mercer raises the question of Boris's integrity. Can his word be relied on? No, of course not. Does Boris lie? I'm not sure. It often seems more that Boris is careless of whether any statement is true or false provided it helps him win; then it can be discarded, again without reference to truth or falsehood.

    Peter Oborne's book, The Assault on Truth: Boris Johnson, Donald Trump and the Emergence of a New Moral Barbarism, takes a different view. Perhaps Oborne is right. Here is its, presumably sympathetic to the Prime Minister, ConHome review:
    https://www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2021/02/oborne-condemns-johnson-as-a-liar-and-cannot-understand-why-many-voters-believe-the-pm-is-telling-the-truth.html

    ETA The Guardian, presumably less sympathetic. You can google for the Mail's review (or can you?).
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/feb/03/the-assault-on-truth-by-peter-oborne-review-boris-johnsons-lies
    Does Boris lie? Well he was sacked twice for lying so yes, he lies. Ask his former wives. Come to think about it ask Michael Gove. Or even Carrie.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿New Holyrood List VI

    SNP 38 (-2)
    Conservative 23 (+2)
    Labour 17 (-1)
    Green 7 (-2)
    LD 5 (-1)
    Other 8 (+2)

    16-20 April
    Savanta ComRes
    (chg from 2-7 April)

    Where’s this leave us?

    Another whole load of comments to come on why Boris is a clown who'll come to a bad end.....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    .

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    I posted yesterday that our PM is widely held to be a rogue, but for many people a lovable one. Once the 'lovable' goes his fall may well be swift, long and hard.

    And that is the point

    Boris is popular and seems immune to the accusations of sleaze

    However, his end will either be swift, or long and hard, it cannot be both

    It can. He can fall from office swiftly and then have his reputation trashed over a number of years as people speak out.
    Does Boris lie? I'm not sure.
    LOL
    Boris says things which are not true. Routinely. But I think the word "lie" implies knowledge and perhaps even planning; certainly a degree of intention. Whether Boris even recognises a distinction between truth and falsehood is what I'm not sure of. He says whatever is convenient or expedient, without even questioning its veracity. At least, that is how it seems to me.
    Methinks you are over-analysing this! Most people would accept the proposition that someone who doesn't know the difference between the truth and a falsehood is a liar.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856
    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    So is the complaint that Mercer should have known that the PM is a lair and therefore should not have complained? The problem is that the PM is a liar who is throwing yet another group (army veterans) under the bus having lied about a pledge he had no intention of keeping. Again. So it is truly entertaining that the blame is being aimed at the former army Captain doing his job with honour instead of the repeatedly sacked liar.
    Yes, you are starting to get the idea.
    Understood. So your complaint isn't a PM who lied to army veterans that he would stop them being thrown under the bus. Your complaint is that an honourable man trying to do his job on behalf of his former comrades didn't quit earlier and make no attempt to help them.
    No, I will try to explain how it works. Boris stood for the leadership. In doing so he was asked a lot of questions about a lot of things and expressed views on them. His answers no doubt reflected his opinion on many of those things but were also skillfully designed to expand the tent of his supporters so that he could win. This is called politics.

    Some who came on board because of those views, such as Mercer, were expecting action on those views. But a PM can only fight so many battles at one time. Boris had first to deal with getting Brexit through and then deal with Covid. It has been all consuming for his government. Those who have an agenda that falls within those priorities, such as some of Patel's plans, have made progress. Those whose agenda did not fall within that have found themselves on the back burner. This is government. It's what happens.

    To ask if this makes Boris a liar is really looking down the wrong end of the telescope. He has expressed aspirations that he has not achieved. He is trying to run a government in a time of absolute crisis. Mercer is painfully naïve. Well meaning and genuinely motivated but naïve.
    He hardly needed to be "made into a liar", given his track record since a young age! The most striking - and most damning - feature of johnson's CV is the string of critical verdicts from pretty much everyone that has had very close contact with him, from schoolteachers through employers through close work colleagues through former partners through some of his children.
    I don't disagree. The man is consistently careless with the truth and has proven himself untrustworthy in a range of circumstances from the personal to the professional. But that is really a completely different point to the realities of government in a time of Covid.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348

    malcolmg said:

    As long as Boris is popular and delivering to the red wall he is safe but if that unwinds then expect the party to take action.

    However, I do not see it on the horizon yet

    Indeed for everything being thrown at him on sleaze he just seems to be teflon coated

    And on interesting news from last night Independence seems to be on the slide

    https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1384997052468301826?s=19

    Yes one poll out of 20+ , must be true right enough, next you will be saying that Johnson is honest and trustworthy
    It is the trend Malc
    Yes 1 poll out of 21 is a trend right enough G. I will agree when we see it at >5 minimum in a row.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    For those interested in filling in some of the gaps in their knowledge of Johnson's 'cesspit government' Alan Duncan's new book 'In The Thick Of It' is a good place to start.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    BORIS IS ALLAH. BORIS SAVED FOOTBALL

    🚨⚽️ | NEW: The six Premier League clubs who were in the Super League were “stunned by the speed and force of the prime minister’s reaction”

    Via @thetimes
  • impartialimpartial Posts: 15
    Had an interesting zoom with a friend who until very recently worked in Number 10. Been there since Blair years in a junior post. I asked her about the various PMs . She said the working environment changed with each one. Under Blair - relaxed. Brown - austere. Coalition/Cameron - friendly kind. May - cold. Boris - chaotic fearful.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,531

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿New Holyrood List VI

    SNP 38 (-2)
    Conservative 23 (+2)
    Labour 17 (-1)
    Green 7 (-2)
    LD 5 (-1)
    Other 8 (+2)

    16-20 April
    Savanta ComRes
    (chg from 2-7 April)

    Where’s this leave us?

    Looks as though the Tory rise is pretty consistent across Britain - we've had polls from Wales, West Midlands and Scotland all bearing out the national polls. Labour may be holding up in Wales but Sarwar doesn't seem to breaking through for Scottish Labour despite his succes d'estime in the commentariat. On those figures, IndyRef looks stalled and an SNP overall majority quite unlikely. Odd of ComRes not to spell out the Others - if that's mostly Alba, Salmond will get a chunk of seats, but if they're only on 3-4 then the yield will probably be 0-1.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,920
    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Britain risks destroying trust with Australia as it tries to secure a post-Brexit trade deal, after the UK trade secretary’s allies were accused of launching an “unprovoked attack” on her counterpart on the eve of talks in London.

    Trade experts said the reported comments about the Australian trade minister, Dan Tehan, by allies of Liz Truss were “bizarre” and “an unfortunate but serious setback for what should have been friendly negotiations”.

    The Australian government opted not to return fire on the undiplomatic comments on Wednesday, with Tehan declining to respond.

    But Dr Jeffrey Wilson, the research director of the Perth USAsia Centre at the University of Western Australia, said the reported remarks would “damage trust between the ministers, which is essential if they are to work together to direct and shape the progress of the negotiating teams”.

    “This ‘backgrounding’ – which includes unprovoked ad hominem directed against the Australian trade minister – is bizarre,” Wilson told the Guardian.

    “In nearly 20 years working on trade negotiations, I have never seen personal attacks deployed as a negotiating tactic. It is an unfortunate but serious setback for what should have been friendly negotiations.”

    What is the attack? The quotes in the article are he’s a bit slow to move so we are going to put him in an uncomfortable chair.

    Pathetic and childish perhaps but hardly an “unprovoked attack”
    Nevertheless, the Daily Express is now on the case:

    Brexit LIVE: Fury as Liz Truss 'disrespects' Australian trade chief - talks on brink
    You disrespect me, I’ll put my Dad on you.

    God give me strength!
    That happened at my old school once. Dad came. The teacher concerned refused to come out of the staff room, and dad eventually walked away. The teacher moved on to another school shortly afterwards. It is probably just coincidence but one of the other kids did let him in on the secret that the dad in question ran the town's protection racket.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:
    I see Douglas Ross is reviving Cameron's "Hug a Hoodie" campaign.
    DRoss is the Hoodie and not many appear to want to hug him , even the party put one their previous failed leaders on leaflets rather than him.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,351
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    Not really. If you had seen anything he has been writing on social media and his public statements for the last year or more you would know this has been a long time coming. The Veterans affairs stuff has always been his overriding passion and he made clear what his red lines on this were a long time ago. The only real surprise is that people are surprised he has done this. Given Johnson's duplicity on these issues and Mercer's views it was always going to be the only result.
    It's the way he expressed himself Richard and in particular "the last 36 hours" nonsense.

    I am not unsympathetic to his aims although the whole idea of giving servicemen immunity for alleged abuses when on active duty is inevitably controversial and applying it to NI particularly so. This is not a fight that Boris has felt able to have in the last year when there have been one or two other things looking for his attention.

    Of course if you strongly believe in this, like Mercer clearly does, that is frustrating. Ideally, Boris will respond to this resignation by pushing this agenda forward which means that he will have achieved his objective at some personal cost and kudos to him but the personal attacks on colleagues are unproductive and quite possibly inimical to that objective.
    I notice that one thing that everyone has left out of this debate is the actual cases.

    If you read the evidence, the cases being brought in NI are justified and it would be a scandal to ditch them.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    So is the complaint that Mercer should have known that the PM is a lair and therefore should not have complained? The problem is that the PM is a liar who is throwing yet another group (army veterans) under the bus having lied about a pledge he had no intention of keeping. Again. So it is truly entertaining that the blame is being aimed at the former army Captain doing his job with honour instead of the repeatedly sacked liar.
    Yes, you are starting to get the idea.
    Understood. So your complaint isn't a PM who lied to army veterans that he would stop them being thrown under the bus. Your complaint is that an honourable man trying to do his job on behalf of his former comrades didn't quit earlier and make no attempt to help them.
    No, I will try to explain how it works. Boris stood for the leadership. In doing so he was asked a lot of questions about a lot of things and expressed views on them. His answers no doubt reflected his opinion on many of those things but were also skillfully designed to expand the tent of his supporters so that he could win. This is called politics.

    Some who came on board because of those views, such as Mercer, were expecting action on those views. But a PM can only fight so many battles at one time. Boris had first to deal with getting Brexit through and then deal with Covid. It has been all consuming for his government. Those who have an agenda that falls within those priorities, such as some of Patel's plans, have made progress. Those whose agenda did not fall within that have found themselves on the back burner. This is government. It's what happens.

    To ask if this makes Boris a liar is really looking down the wrong end of the telescope. He has expressed aspirations that he has not achieved. He is trying to run a government in a time of absolute crisis. Mercer is painfully naïve. Well meaning and genuinely motivated but naïve.
    I greatly appreciate you setting this argument out. My observation though is that this pledge wasn't something thrown into a leadership election debate when on the spot. It is a manifesto commitment. Whilst the focus of the government has undoubtedly been sidetracked by Covid, the same cannot be said for the MoD and the minister for veterans. There is no reason at all for Liar to bin this manifesto commitment other than like so many other things he pledges to it wasn't serious.

    If it is naive to expect as minister for veterans in this government that you will be able to carry out a manifesto commitment to veterans, then we really do have a problem.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    So is the complaint that Mercer should have known that the PM is a lair and therefore should not have complained? The problem is that the PM is a liar who is throwing yet another group (army veterans) under the bus having lied about a pledge he had no intention of keeping. Again. So it is truly entertaining that the blame is being aimed at the former army Captain doing his job with honour instead of the repeatedly sacked liar.
    Yes, you are starting to get the idea.
    Understood. So your complaint isn't a PM who lied to army veterans that he would stop them being thrown under the bus. Your complaint is that an honourable man trying to do his job on behalf of his former comrades didn't quit earlier and make no attempt to help them.
    No, I will try to explain how it works. Boris stood for the leadership. In doing so he was asked a lot of questions about a lot of things and expressed views on them. His answers no doubt reflected his opinion on many of those things but were also skillfully designed to expand the tent of his supporters so that he could win. This is called politics.

    Some who came on board because of those views, such as Mercer, were expecting action on those views. But a PM can only fight so many battles at one time. Boris had first to deal with getting Brexit through and then deal with Covid. It has been all consuming for his government. Those who have an agenda that falls within those priorities, such as some of Patel's plans, have made progress. Those whose agenda did not fall within that have found themselves on the back burner. This is government. It's what happens.

    To ask if this makes Boris a liar is really looking down the wrong end of the telescope. He has expressed aspirations that he has not achieved. He is trying to run a government in a time of absolute crisis. Mercer is painfully naïve. Well meaning and genuinely motivated but naïve.
    He hardly needed to be "made into a liar", given his track record since a young age! The most striking - and most damning - feature of johnson's CV is the string of critical verdicts from pretty much everyone that has had very close contact with him, from schoolteachers through employers through close work colleagues through former partners through some of his children.
    I don't disagree. The man is consistently careless with the truth and has proven himself untrustworthy in a range of circumstances from the personal to the professional. But that is really a completely different point to the realities of government in a time of Covid.
    That's true, but the nearest he's come to disaster in recent times was, I think, when Carrie almost threw him out. I suspect it won't be politics as such that causes his terminal explosion but family (or quasi-family) relationships.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,761
    "A few years ago, Johnson, with the help of Dominic Cummings, did something remarkable. He bothered to listen to the suburbs, to the lower middle and working class voters who voted for Churchill, for Macmillan and Thatcher. He visited new build estates in the North, with their open plan kitchens, trampolines in the garden and Nissan Qashqai mini-SUVs on the driveway"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/21/boriss-big-green-gamble-risks-fuelling-anew-brexit-style-revolt/
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:
    I see Douglas Ross is reviving Cameron's "Hug a Hoodie" campaign.
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1384997052468301826?s=21

    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 45% (-)
    No: 48% (+3)

    via @SavantaComRes, 16 - 20 Apr
    Chgs. w/ 07 Apr
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,725
    impartial said:

    Had an interesting zoom with a friend who until very recently worked in Number 10. Been there since Blair years in a junior post. I asked her about the various PMs . She said the working environment changed with each one. Under Blair - relaxed. Brown - austere. Coalition/Cameron - friendly kind. May - cold. Boris - chaotic fearful.

    Living up to your name I see.How very impartial of you to post this. 🤣🤣🤣
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219

    .

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    I posted yesterday that our PM is widely held to be a rogue, but for many people a lovable one. Once the 'lovable' goes his fall may well be swift, long and hard.

    And that is the point

    Boris is popular and seems immune to the accusations of sleaze

    However, his end will either be swift, or long and hard, it cannot be both

    It can. He can fall from office swiftly and then have his reputation trashed over a number of years as people speak out.
    Does Boris lie? I'm not sure.
    LOL
    Boris says things which are not true. Routinely. But I think the word "lie" implies knowledge and perhaps even planning; certainly a degree of intention. Whether Boris even recognises a distinction between truth and falsehood is what I'm not sure of. He says whatever is convenient or expedient, without even questioning its veracity. At least, that is how it seems to me.
    I think that's right. He talks shit for short-term ease and mollification.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348

    Charles said:

    This will go down well... I’d call it “overreach”... white bread, butter, jam, sugar, chocolate all on the naughty list

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9497923/British-diet-white-bread-butter-chocolate-sending-early-grave-researchers-say.html

    Fruit juice will surprise people.
    Most of them are too dumb to understand
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    What will moderate the effect of Nick Mercer's words and actions are that despite believing (he says) that a government which is 100% run by his very own party is a moral cesspit he is happy to stay in the party and in the parliament it controls.

    Resigning over a single policy issue is fine. Staying as an MP supporting a government you say you can't support because it is a citadel of lies is less fine.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,219
    impartial said:

    Had an interesting zoom with a friend who until very recently worked in Number 10. Been there since Blair years in a junior post. I asked her about the various PMs . She said the working environment changed with each one. Under Blair - relaxed. Brown - austere. Coalition/Cameron - friendly kind. May - cold. Boris - chaotic fearful.

    Boris - chaotic fearful: yes, but it doesn't have to be this way with the size of his majority. Why are they so weak and rudderless? Is this what comes from a lack of principle?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Britain risks destroying trust with Australia as it tries to secure a post-Brexit trade deal, after the UK trade secretary’s allies were accused of launching an “unprovoked attack” on her counterpart on the eve of talks in London.

    Trade experts said the reported comments about the Australian trade minister, Dan Tehan, by allies of Liz Truss were “bizarre” and “an unfortunate but serious setback for what should have been friendly negotiations”.

    The Australian government opted not to return fire on the undiplomatic comments on Wednesday, with Tehan declining to respond.

    But Dr Jeffrey Wilson, the research director of the Perth USAsia Centre at the University of Western Australia, said the reported remarks would “damage trust between the ministers, which is essential if they are to work together to direct and shape the progress of the negotiating teams”.

    “This ‘backgrounding’ – which includes unprovoked ad hominem directed against the Australian trade minister – is bizarre,” Wilson told the Guardian.

    “In nearly 20 years working on trade negotiations, I have never seen personal attacks deployed as a negotiating tactic. It is an unfortunate but serious setback for what should have been friendly negotiations.”

    What is the attack? The quotes in the article are he’s a bit slow to move so we are going to put him in an uncomfortable chair.

    Pathetic and childish perhaps but hardly an “unprovoked attack”
    It sounds like frustration from Liz Truss and her team that her Australian opposite can't or won't move as fast as she does.

    I understand a UK trade deal with New Zealand is imminent.
    Sounds like first "REAL" trade deal and she is getting nowhere. The Australians don't need to lick butt. She is useless and there is little to nothing in it for them, it is UK that is desperate. I expect a polished turd as usual from Truss , embellished with many lies.
    New trade deals are harder than continuity trade deals because you're starting from square one.

    With the latter, you already have a pre-existing basis for agreement. On the former, lots of vested interests to break down & get past.
    Is that code for she is really as crap as I said she is, or even crappier.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿New Holyrood List VI

    SNP 38 (-2)
    Conservative 23 (+2)
    Labour 17 (-1)
    Green 7 (-2)
    LD 5 (-1)
    Other 8 (+2)

    16-20 April
    Savanta ComRes
    (chg from 2-7 April)

    Where’s this leave us?

    Looks as though the Tory rise is pretty consistent across Britain - we've had polls from Wales, West Midlands and Scotland all bearing out the national polls. Labour may be holding up in Wales but Sarwar doesn't seem to breaking through for Scottish Labour despite his succes d'estime in the commentariat. On those figures, IndyRef looks stalled and an SNP overall majority quite unlikely. Odd of ComRes not to spell out the Others - if that's mostly Alba, Salmond will get a chunk of seats, but if they're only on 3-4 then the yield will probably be 0-1.
    That's for the list vote alone. The other Scottish poll on this thread has similar list vote figures (except higher for Greens and lower for others), but enough votes for the SNP on the constituency vote to give them a majority with constituency seats alone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    Not really. If you had seen anything he has been writing on social media and his public statements for the last year or more you would know this has been a long time coming. The Veterans affairs stuff has always been his overriding passion and he made clear what his red lines on this were a long time ago. The only real surprise is that people are surprised he has done this. Given Johnson's duplicity on these issues and Mercer's views it was always going to be the only result.
    It's the way he expressed himself Richard and in particular "the last 36 hours" nonsense.

    I am not unsympathetic to his aims although the whole idea of giving servicemen immunity for alleged abuses when on active duty is inevitably controversial and applying it to NI particularly so. This is not a fight that Boris has felt able to have in the last year when there have been one or two other things looking for his attention.

    Of course if you strongly believe in this, like Mercer clearly does, that is frustrating. Ideally, Boris will respond to this resignation by pushing this agenda forward which means that he will have achieved his objective at some personal cost and kudos to him but the personal attacks on colleagues are unproductive and quite possibly inimical to that objective.
    I notice that one thing that everyone has left out of this debate is the actual cases.

    If you read the evidence, the cases being brought in NI are justified and it would be a scandal to ditch them.
    I think that that is a sweeping generalisation. There is no question that certain large legal firms have made a fortune off legal aid proceeding with claims that have been without merit and have no doubt caused great stress and unhappiness to those who served our country at considerable personal risk. The use of public funds in this way has been inimical to the public good.

    But the British army has a deserved reputation for holding itself to high standards and refusing to investigate possible falls from those standards are not helpful to that. Its a difficult balancing act and it is hard to have a clear cut answer except on a case by case basis. This needs a lot of thought and time and energy to get right and then political capital to persuade others that you have got it right. That is not available.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    Leon said:

    BORIS IS ALLAH. BORIS SAVED FOOTBALL

    🚨⚽️ | NEW: The six Premier League clubs who were in the Super League were “stunned by the speed and force of the prime minister’s reaction”

    Via @thetimes

    Like me, they found it amazing that the Prime Minister would involve himself in this irrelevant non-story.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348

    Alistair said:
    People have listened to Salmond saying that a List vote for the SNP is a wasted vote and go for a supermajority and thought "that's a fair point. I'll vote Green in the list then."
    They must be pretty stupid to vote for those creeps.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Boris might end up the prime minister that:

    Saved Brexit
    Saved the Union
    Saved Football


    That’s probably enough to put him in the top rank of PMs since WW2?
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,796
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    So is the complaint that Mercer should have known that the PM is a lair and therefore should not have complained? The problem is that the PM is a liar who is throwing yet another group (army veterans) under the bus having lied about a pledge he had no intention of keeping. Again. So it is truly entertaining that the blame is being aimed at the former army Captain doing his job with honour instead of the repeatedly sacked liar.
    Yes, you are starting to get the idea.
    Understood. So your complaint isn't a PM who lied to army veterans that he would stop them being thrown under the bus. Your complaint is that an honourable man trying to do his job on behalf of his former comrades didn't quit earlier and make no attempt to help them.
    No, I will try to explain how it works. Boris stood for the leadership. In doing so he was asked a lot of questions about a lot of things and expressed views on them. His answers no doubt reflected his opinion on many of those things but were also skillfully designed to expand the tent of his supporters so that he could win. This is called politics.

    Some who came on board because of those views, such as Mercer, were expecting action on those views. But a PM can only fight so many battles at one time. Boris had first to deal with getting Brexit through and then deal with Covid. It has been all consuming for his government. Those who have an agenda that falls within those priorities, such as some of Patel's plans, have made progress. Those whose agenda did not fall within that have found themselves on the back burner. This is government. It's what happens.

    To ask if this makes Boris a liar is really looking down the wrong end of the telescope. He has expressed aspirations that he has not achieved. He is trying to run a government in a time of absolute crisis. Mercer is painfully naïve. Well meaning and genuinely motivated but naïve.
    He hardly needed to be "made into a liar", given his track record since a young age! The most striking - and most damning - feature of johnson's CV is the string of critical verdicts from pretty much everyone that has had very close contact with him, from schoolteachers through employers through close work colleagues through former partners through some of his children.
    I don't disagree. The man is consistently careless with the truth and has proven himself untrustworthy in a range of circumstances from the personal to the professional. But that is really a completely different point to the realities of government in a time of Covid.
    'careless with the truth' is a rather good phrase only topped by Andrew Tyrie's 'All very interesting, Boris. Except none of it is really true, is it?'
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿New Holyrood List VI

    SNP 38 (-2)
    Conservative 23 (+2)
    Labour 17 (-1)
    Green 7 (-2)
    LD 5 (-1)
    Other 8 (+2)

    16-20 April
    Savanta ComRes
    (chg from 2-7 April)

    Where’s this leave us?

    Looks as though the Tory rise is pretty consistent across Britain - we've had polls from Wales, West Midlands and Scotland all bearing out the national polls. Labour may be holding up in Wales but Sarwar doesn't seem to breaking through for Scottish Labour despite his succes d'estime in the commentariat. On those figures, IndyRef looks stalled and an SNP overall majority quite unlikely. Odd of ComRes not to spell out the Others - if that's mostly Alba, Salmond will get a chunk of seats, but if they're only on 3-4 then the yield will probably be 0-1.
    I disagree to the extent that those numbers might still give the SNP a majority in Holyrood, certainly with Green support. But if they fall short of 50% Boris will be entitled to refuse a s30 application.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    Leon said:

    BORIS IS ALLAH. BORIS SAVED FOOTBALL

    🚨⚽️ | NEW: The six Premier League clubs who were in the Super League were “stunned by the speed and force of the prime minister’s reaction”

    Via @thetimes

    As soon as the ESL announcement was made it was blindingly obvious that a swift-footed politician could make hay. You can hardly get a better story for a politician.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    So is the complaint that Mercer should have known that the PM is a lair and therefore should not have complained? The problem is that the PM is a liar who is throwing yet another group (army veterans) under the bus having lied about a pledge he had no intention of keeping. Again. So it is truly entertaining that the blame is being aimed at the former army Captain doing his job with honour instead of the repeatedly sacked liar.
    Yes, you are starting to get the idea.
    Understood. So your complaint isn't a PM who lied to army veterans that he would stop them being thrown under the bus. Your complaint is that an honourable man trying to do his job on behalf of his former comrades didn't quit earlier and make no attempt to help them.
    No, I will try to explain how it works. Boris stood for the leadership. In doing so he was asked a lot of questions about a lot of things and expressed views on them. His answers no doubt reflected his opinion on many of those things but were also skillfully designed to expand the tent of his supporters so that he could win. This is called politics.

    Some who came on board because of those views, such as Mercer, were expecting action on those views. But a PM can only fight so many battles at one time. Boris had first to deal with getting Brexit through and then deal with Covid. It has been all consuming for his government. Those who have an agenda that falls within those priorities, such as some of Patel's plans, have made progress. Those whose agenda did not fall within that have found themselves on the back burner. This is government. It's what happens.

    To ask if this makes Boris a liar is really looking down the wrong end of the telescope. He has expressed aspirations that he has not achieved. He is trying to run a government in a time of absolute crisis. Mercer is painfully naïve. Well meaning and genuinely motivated but naïve.
    David , you missed that most of his time is spent lining his pals pockets and heading the biggest bunch of chancers since Prince John.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,990
    edited April 2021

    .

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    I posted yesterday that our PM is widely held to be a rogue, but for many people a lovable one. Once the 'lovable' goes his fall may well be swift, long and hard.

    And that is the point

    Boris is popular and seems immune to the accusations of sleaze

    However, his end will either be swift, or long and hard, it cannot be both

    It can. He can fall from office swiftly and then have his reputation trashed over a number of years as people speak out.
    Does Boris lie? I'm not sure.
    LOL
    Boris says things which are not true. Routinely. But I think the word "lie" implies knowledge and perhaps even planning; certainly a degree of intention. Whether Boris even recognises a distinction between truth and falsehood is what I'm not sure of. He says whatever is convenient or expedient, without even questioning its veracity. At least, that is how it seems to me.
    To crow bar in current events, isn’t that just the differentiation between the various guilty verdicts on Chauvin? A man’s life was ended by his actions, just as truth frequently lies bleeding and lifeless after Johnson’s depredations.

    I don’t really buy the suggestion of naïveté or reflexive behaviour, there’s a massive stink of calculation of what he can successfully get away with coming off BJ.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,920
    Leon said:

    BORIS IS ALLAH. BORIS SAVED FOOTBALL

    🚨⚽️ | NEW: The six Premier League clubs who were in the Super League were “stunned by the speed and force of the prime minister’s reaction”

    Via @thetimes

    What is odd about the Super League proposal was that the American billionaires were trying to do what had already failed twice – to cash in on the American and Far East markets' enthusiasm for the beautiful game – but the American MLS and the Chinese Super League have both been relative failures which ought to have given the billionaires caution before sabotaging the two golden geese: the EPL and Champions League. That is the advice I'd have given had they the foresight to hire me as a consultant for an extortionate fee (or any fee).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,351
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    Not really. If you had seen anything he has been writing on social media and his public statements for the last year or more you would know this has been a long time coming. The Veterans affairs stuff has always been his overriding passion and he made clear what his red lines on this were a long time ago. The only real surprise is that people are surprised he has done this. Given Johnson's duplicity on these issues and Mercer's views it was always going to be the only result.
    It's the way he expressed himself Richard and in particular "the last 36 hours" nonsense.

    I am not unsympathetic to his aims although the whole idea of giving servicemen immunity for alleged abuses when on active duty is inevitably controversial and applying it to NI particularly so. This is not a fight that Boris has felt able to have in the last year when there have been one or two other things looking for his attention.

    Of course if you strongly believe in this, like Mercer clearly does, that is frustrating. Ideally, Boris will respond to this resignation by pushing this agenda forward which means that he will have achieved his objective at some personal cost and kudos to him but the personal attacks on colleagues are unproductive and quite possibly inimical to that objective.
    I notice that one thing that everyone has left out of this debate is the actual cases.

    If you read the evidence, the cases being brought in NI are justified and it would be a scandal to ditch them.
    I think that that is a sweeping generalisation. There is no question that certain large legal firms have made a fortune off legal aid proceeding with claims that have been without merit and have no doubt caused great stress and unhappiness to those who served our country at considerable personal risk. The use of public funds in this way has been inimical to the public good.

    But the British army has a deserved reputation for holding itself to high standards and refusing to investigate possible falls from those standards are not helpful to that. Its a difficult balancing act and it is hard to have a clear cut answer except on a case by case basis. This needs a lot of thought and time and energy to get right and then political capital to persuade others that you have got it right. That is not available.
    There have certainly been cases of utter bullshit. Fraud by the investigating solicitors has been proven in a number of cases, relating to Iraq.

    The NI prosecutions are based on clear evidence - quite a bit of it from other soldiers.

    The campaigners to drop such prosecutions have always used such terms as "unjustified prosecutions" - What is unjustified about prosecuting someone for murder, when there are multiple witnesses to the murder?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348
    felix said:

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿New Holyrood List VI

    SNP 38 (-2)
    Conservative 23 (+2)
    Labour 17 (-1)
    Green 7 (-2)
    LD 5 (-1)
    Other 8 (+2)

    16-20 April
    Savanta ComRes
    (chg from 2-7 April)

    Where’s this leave us?

    Another whole load of comments to come on why Boris is a clown who'll come to a bad end.....
    Also lots of ALBA list MSP's. That will put the wind up Nicola.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,657
    edited April 2021
    New Wales Senedd poll by YouGov.

    Constituency

    Labour: 35% (+3)

    Conservatives: 24% (-6)

    Plaid Cymru: 24% (+1)

    Reform UK: 4% (+1)

    Liberal Democrats: 3% (-2)

    Greens: 3% (+1)

    Abolish the Assembly: 3% (no change)

    Others: 3% (+1)

    List

    Labour: 33% (+2)

    Plaid Cymru: 23% (+1)

    Conservatives: 22% (-6)

    Abolish the Assembly: 7% (no change)

    Greens: 5% (+2)

    Liberal Democrats: 4% (no change)

    Others: 6% (+2)

    https://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2021/04/22/two-new-polls-in-wales/

    Who was that idiot that tipped Mark Drakeford to lose his seat? Absolute clown.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,531
    DavidL said:

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿New Holyrood List VI

    SNP 38 (-2)
    Conservative 23 (+2)
    Labour 17 (-1)
    Green 7 (-2)
    LD 5 (-1)
    Other 8 (+2)

    16-20 April
    Savanta ComRes
    (chg from 2-7 April)

    Where’s this leave us?

    Looks as though the Tory rise is pretty consistent across Britain - we've had polls from Wales, West Midlands and Scotland all bearing out the national polls. Labour may be holding up in Wales but Sarwar doesn't seem to breaking through for Scottish Labour despite his succes d'estime in the commentariat. On those figures, IndyRef looks stalled and an SNP overall majority quite unlikely. Odd of ComRes not to spell out the Others - if that's mostly Alba, Salmond will get a chunk of seats, but if they're only on 3-4 then the yield will probably be 0-1.
    I disagree to the extent that those numbers might still give the SNP a majority in Holyrood, certainly with Green support. But if they fall short of 50% Boris will be entitled to refuse a s30 application.
    Sure, with Greens, but for betting purposes the question is whether the SNP do it on their own.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856
    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    So is the complaint that Mercer should have known that the PM is a lair and therefore should not have complained? The problem is that the PM is a liar who is throwing yet another group (army veterans) under the bus having lied about a pledge he had no intention of keeping. Again. So it is truly entertaining that the blame is being aimed at the former army Captain doing his job with honour instead of the repeatedly sacked liar.
    Yes, you are starting to get the idea.
    Understood. So your complaint isn't a PM who lied to army veterans that he would stop them being thrown under the bus. Your complaint is that an honourable man trying to do his job on behalf of his former comrades didn't quit earlier and make no attempt to help them.
    No, I will try to explain how it works. Boris stood for the leadership. In doing so he was asked a lot of questions about a lot of things and expressed views on them. His answers no doubt reflected his opinion on many of those things but were also skillfully designed to expand the tent of his supporters so that he could win. This is called politics.

    Some who came on board because of those views, such as Mercer, were expecting action on those views. But a PM can only fight so many battles at one time. Boris had first to deal with getting Brexit through and then deal with Covid. It has been all consuming for his government. Those who have an agenda that falls within those priorities, such as some of Patel's plans, have made progress. Those whose agenda did not fall within that have found themselves on the back burner. This is government. It's what happens.

    To ask if this makes Boris a liar is really looking down the wrong end of the telescope. He has expressed aspirations that he has not achieved. He is trying to run a government in a time of absolute crisis. Mercer is painfully naïve. Well meaning and genuinely motivated but naïve.
    David , you missed that most of his time is spent lining his pals pockets and heading the biggest bunch of chancers since Prince John.
    Well I am sure that was implied Malcolm. Agreeing all those contracts would keep anyone busy.
  • There's more Celtic polling to follow.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    BORIS IS ALLAH. BORIS SAVED FOOTBALL

    🚨⚽️ | NEW: The six Premier League clubs who were in the Super League were “stunned by the speed and force of the prime minister’s reaction”

    Via @thetimes

    Like me, they found it amazing that the Prime Minister would involve himself in this irrelevant non-story.
    I read in the Times that football generates £10bn a year in exports for Britain. Fishing produces £3bn

    Way beyond that, English Premiership football is the most popular televised sport in the world and generates enormous if unquantifiable soft power for the UK

    A prime minister that didn’t try to save all this would be a cretin, guilty of appalling neglect. Plus, it was an easy win, if he did it rightly: hard and fast and terrify the clubs

    Which is what he did. All Praise Bojo

  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    I'm completely on-board with hating this government.

    But every single time I've seen Mercer he's looked like someone who's judgement can not be trusted.
  • "A few years ago, Johnson, with the help of Dominic Cummings, did something remarkable. He bothered to listen to the suburbs, to the lower middle and working class voters who voted for Churchill, for Macmillan and Thatcher. He visited new build estates in the North, with their open plan kitchens, trampolines in the garden and Nissan Qashqai mini-SUVs on the driveway"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/21/boriss-big-green-gamble-risks-fuelling-anew-brexit-style-revolt/

    To credit the PM, he got this issue and treated it far more intelligently than Iain Duncan Smith before him. Liar went to estates, spoke to people and gave them what they wanted, Satan went to estates, saw what sin looked like, and brought the wrath of (his version of) God upon them with punitive social security changes.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,100
    edited April 2021

    New Wales Senedd poll by YouGov.

    Constituency

    Labour: 35% (+3)

    Conservatives: 24% (-6)

    Plaid Cymru: 24% (+1)

    Reform UK: 4% (+1)

    Liberal Democrats: 3% (-2)

    Greens: 3% (+1)

    Abolish the Assembly: 3% (no change)

    Others: 3% (+1)

    List

    Labour: 33% (+2)

    Plaid Cymru: 23% (+1)

    Conservatives: 22% (-6)

    Abolish the Assembly: 7% (no change)

    Greens: 5% (+2)

    Liberal Democrats: 4% (no change)

    Others: 6% (+2)

    https://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2021/04/22/two-new-polls-in-wales/

    Who was that idiot that tipped Mark Drakeford to lose his seat? Absolute clown.

    It was not me

    And I have said how poor Andrew RT Davies is
  • But Mark Drakeford is God in Wales.

    I think he could heal the lepers just by looking at them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    New Comres Holyrood poll has a swing of 1.75% from the SNP to the Scottish Conservatives since 2016 on the constituency vote and would see the Conservatives potentially gain Perthshire South and Kinrosshire from the SNP.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1385138364224000002?s=20
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,856

    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    On topic I find the idea that the scales were suddenly lifted from Mercer's eyes in the last 36 hours and he suddenly realised that those involved in politics were not always truthful genuinely risible. I begin to wonder if he is one of those adults that @TSE was talking about in the previous thread header who really shouldn't be allowed out of the house without adult supervision. I mean, this man has been in Parliament for 6 years. What did he think was going on?

    So is the complaint that Mercer should have known that the PM is a lair and therefore should not have complained? The problem is that the PM is a liar who is throwing yet another group (army veterans) under the bus having lied about a pledge he had no intention of keeping. Again. So it is truly entertaining that the blame is being aimed at the former army Captain doing his job with honour instead of the repeatedly sacked liar.
    Yes, you are starting to get the idea.
    Understood. So your complaint isn't a PM who lied to army veterans that he would stop them being thrown under the bus. Your complaint is that an honourable man trying to do his job on behalf of his former comrades didn't quit earlier and make no attempt to help them.
    No, I will try to explain how it works. Boris stood for the leadership. In doing so he was asked a lot of questions about a lot of things and expressed views on them. His answers no doubt reflected his opinion on many of those things but were also skillfully designed to expand the tent of his supporters so that he could win. This is called politics.

    Some who came on board because of those views, such as Mercer, were expecting action on those views. But a PM can only fight so many battles at one time. Boris had first to deal with getting Brexit through and then deal with Covid. It has been all consuming for his government. Those who have an agenda that falls within those priorities, such as some of Patel's plans, have made progress. Those whose agenda did not fall within that have found themselves on the back burner. This is government. It's what happens.

    To ask if this makes Boris a liar is really looking down the wrong end of the telescope. He has expressed aspirations that he has not achieved. He is trying to run a government in a time of absolute crisis. Mercer is painfully naïve. Well meaning and genuinely motivated but naïve.
    He hardly needed to be "made into a liar", given his track record since a young age! The most striking - and most damning - feature of johnson's CV is the string of critical verdicts from pretty much everyone that has had very close contact with him, from schoolteachers through employers through close work colleagues through former partners through some of his children.
    I don't disagree. The man is consistently careless with the truth and has proven himself untrustworthy in a range of circumstances from the personal to the professional. But that is really a completely different point to the realities of government in a time of Covid.
    That's true, but the nearest he's come to disaster in recent times was, I think, when Carrie almost threw him out. I suspect it won't be politics as such that causes his terminal explosion but family (or quasi-family) relationships.
    Quite possibly. His behavior in that area would embarrass the average alley cat.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    edited April 2021

    .

    IanB2 said:

    Jonathan said:

    I posted yesterday that our PM is widely held to be a rogue, but for many people a lovable one. Once the 'lovable' goes his fall may well be swift, long and hard.

    And that is the point

    Boris is popular and seems immune to the accusations of sleaze

    However, his end will either be swift, or long and hard, it cannot be both

    It can. He can fall from office swiftly and then have his reputation trashed over a number of years as people speak out.
    Does Boris lie? I'm not sure.
    LOL
    Boris says things which are not true. Routinely. But I think the word "lie" implies knowledge and perhaps even planning; certainly a degree of intention. Whether Boris even recognises a distinction between truth and falsehood is what I'm not sure of. He says whatever is convenient or expedient, without even questioning its veracity. At least, that is how it seems to me.
    To crow bar in current events, isn’t that just the differentiation between the various guilty verdicts on Chauvin? A man’s life was ended by his actions, just as truth frequently lies bleeding and lifeless after Johnson’s depredations.

    I don’t really buy the suggestion of naïveté or reflexive behaviour, there’s a massive stink of calculation of what he can successfully get away with coming off BJ.
    Yes, I don't think we should succumb to the "just Boris being Boris" sentiment when it comes to his relentless lying for political gain.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,100
    edited April 2021
    Looking at the most recent polling for Holyrood I am of the opinion, that the Scottish electorate are being very ‘cannie’ if the polls are to be believed.

    It does seem that Salmond is ‘persona non grata’ in Scotland, indeed he is polling worse than Boris, and the electorate look as if they are to indulge in a substantial tactical vote on the list to ensure their second vote goes to green and thereby denies Salmond a place at the table in Holyrood.

    At the same time, the Scots like Sturgeon’s brand and are willing to grant her another term, but also are beginning to show signs that they are not as in favour of Independence as the SNP would have you believe, hence todays poll showing No ahead of Yes 48/44

    Nicola is far to good a politician to prejudice her legacy by going ‘gung-ho’ on indyref2 and. as she likes power, will use covid to delay indyref 2 as it is not the time

    As the next SNP Holyrood administration has to face the day to day job of health, education and a host of other subjects, neglected by the obsession with indyref2, Nicola will have all her work cut out just to keep the SNP popularity onside and I expect indyref2 will be parked until or unless there is a clear majority in Scotland for it.

    Now many will have their own opinion, but this is my view leading up to Holyrood 2021

    https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1385123806390456322?s=19
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    The issue that Mercer has resigned over is something that seems to be an odd hill to die on ,as Patrick Maguire notes ‘Tory opponents of Troubles legacy prosecutions have more in common with Sinn Féin than they would ever admit, or, to be less charitable, ever realise. It suits both to argue that murder was as natural as the weather and, while regrettable, couldn’t be helped — never mind the law.‘

    This is probably why this doesn’t hurt Boris as most of his opponents are happy he’s renegade on this.

    It’s a tricky issue. Was giving immunity to murderers a price worth paying for peace in NI? Possibly. And whilst I understand the view that the British Army should be held to higher standards than the IRA or UVF or whoever, ultimately murder is murder whoever is perpetrating it.

    I think let the prosecutions happen, but no one convicted should be serving time in prison.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    "A few years ago, Johnson, with the help of Dominic Cummings, did something remarkable. He bothered to listen to the suburbs, to the lower middle and working class voters who voted for Churchill, for Macmillan and Thatcher. He visited new build estates in the North, with their open plan kitchens, trampolines in the garden and Nissan Qashqai mini-SUVs on the driveway"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/21/boriss-big-green-gamble-risks-fuelling-anew-brexit-style-revolt/

    To credit the PM, he got this issue and treated it far more intelligently than Iain Duncan Smith before him. Liar went to estates, spoke to people and gave them what they wanted, Satan went to estates, saw what sin looked like, and brought the wrath of (his version of) God upon them with punitive social security changes.
    Give it a rest. I really think you should seek help over this issue you've got with Boris. We get it, you don't like him. You're letting it rule every waking moment of your life.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Anecdote tiem: if results were governed by window posters the the Greens would be set to sweep all the seats in edinburgh.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,238
    Stocky said:

    impartial said:

    Had an interesting zoom with a friend who until very recently worked in Number 10. Been there since Blair years in a junior post. I asked her about the various PMs . She said the working environment changed with each one. Under Blair - relaxed. Brown - austere. Coalition/Cameron - friendly kind. May - cold. Boris - chaotic fearful.

    Boris - chaotic fearful: yes, but it doesn't have to be this way with the size of his majority. Why are they so weak and rudderless? Is this what comes from a lack of principle?
    There was a bit in The Times recently claiming that it's how Boris works out what to do- free market in ideas, let them fight it out, survival of the fittest, yada yada. Seems like a positive spin on BoJo neither knows or cares, as long as he has the big seat.

    But several things can be true at once.

    1 This is be a clown car government that gets lots of things horribly wrong most of the time.

    2 Even clowns get some things right. If they're big enough, that covers a lot of sins.

    3 The government will eventually fail horribly, probably when it runs out of minions to betray.

    4 The government will remain popular for an unspecified time between 10 years and 10 minutes.

    5 It's possible for a government to be terrible at its job and popular in the polls at the same time. Especially if the problems are under the waterline.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,531
    edited April 2021
    Startled to read the Electoral Commission guidance to local election candidates - while it cautions that lying about opponents' personal lives is a serious offence, it says blandly that lying about their policies is part of normal poltics.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201
    edited April 2021
    Sturgeon's comments on bars and pubs are ridiculous. The populated parts of Scotland and England are a long way from each other. Who is going to go on a 5 hour drive mainly to sit inside a Glasgow pub ?
    And if you are up from a 7 hour drive to your Blairgowrie caravan and fancy a quiet meal indoors on a fresh day in the Highlands - why should you be prevented when those are the Scottish rules ?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348
    DavidL said:

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿New Holyrood List VI

    SNP 38 (-2)
    Conservative 23 (+2)
    Labour 17 (-1)
    Green 7 (-2)
    LD 5 (-1)
    Other 8 (+2)

    16-20 April
    Savanta ComRes
    (chg from 2-7 April)

    Where’s this leave us?

    Looks as though the Tory rise is pretty consistent across Britain - we've had polls from Wales, West Midlands and Scotland all bearing out the national polls. Labour may be holding up in Wales but Sarwar doesn't seem to breaking through for Scottish Labour despite his succes d'estime in the commentariat. On those figures, IndyRef looks stalled and an SNP overall majority quite unlikely. Odd of ComRes not to spell out the Others - if that's mostly Alba, Salmond will get a chunk of seats, but if they're only on 3-4 then the yield will probably be 0-1.
    I disagree to the extent that those numbers might still give the SNP a majority in Holyrood, certainly with Green support. But if they fall short of 50% Boris will be entitled to refuse a s30 application.
    Rubbish David, it is down to Independence supporting MSP's elected. Typical unionist to always have a crappy way to try and get out of being democratic. The SNP does not equal independence, it is only a part of it. SNP will only go for independence if ALBA get a decent amount of seats and push it. Sturgeon is interested only in herself and will continue to just mouth platitudes till she sets up her next cushy number, assuming she survives all the court cases.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Boris might end up the prime minister that:

    Saved Brexit
    Saved the Union
    Saved Football


    That’s probably enough to put him in the top rank of PMs since WW2?

    Could be. Politics is not a competition assessed by any objective means, like honesty and truthfulness. All politicians all the time use a weird form of language unrelated to normality to hide the more Socratic sorts of truth. (Boris uses far more normal language than most. It is part of his genius).

    The Peter Obornes and Guardians are missing the point. To be and stay at the top is to be judged by voters alone, and their judgements are formed by the standards of our day, and voters decide what they are - just like football supporters decide what counts as a proper football competition.

    Having said that, when Boris's wheels come off it will be spectacular.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Pulpstar said:

    Sturgeon's comments on bars and pubs are ridiculous. The populated parts of Scotland and England are a long way from each other.

    What did she say?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,920

    Startled to read the Electoral Commission guidance to local election candidates - while it cautions that lying about opponents' personal lives is a serious offence, it says blandly that lying about their policies is part of normal poltics.

    Next you will be telling us that Labour did not plan to disband the armed forces had it won in 2019, despite Boris's claim.
  • malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿New Holyrood List VI

    SNP 38 (-2)
    Conservative 23 (+2)
    Labour 17 (-1)
    Green 7 (-2)
    LD 5 (-1)
    Other 8 (+2)

    16-20 April
    Savanta ComRes
    (chg from 2-7 April)

    Where’s this leave us?

    Looks as though the Tory rise is pretty consistent across Britain - we've had polls from Wales, West Midlands and Scotland all bearing out the national polls. Labour may be holding up in Wales but Sarwar doesn't seem to breaking through for Scottish Labour despite his succes d'estime in the commentariat. On those figures, IndyRef looks stalled and an SNP overall majority quite unlikely. Odd of ComRes not to spell out the Others - if that's mostly Alba, Salmond will get a chunk of seats, but if they're only on 3-4 then the yield will probably be 0-1.
    I disagree to the extent that those numbers might still give the SNP a majority in Holyrood, certainly with Green support. But if they fall short of 50% Boris will be entitled to refuse a s30 application.
    Rubbish David, it is down to Independence supporting MSP's elected. Typical unionist to always have a crappy way to try and get out of being democratic. The SNP does not equal independence, it is only a part of it. SNP will only go for independence if ALBA get a decent amount of seats and push it. Sturgeon is interested only in herself and will continue to just mouth platitudes till she sets up her next cushy number, assuming she survives all the court cases.
    Maybe chimes with my post on this Malc
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    Leon said:

    BORIS IS ALLAH. BORIS SAVED FOOTBALL

    🚨⚽️ | NEW: The six Premier League clubs who were in the Super League were “stunned by the speed and force of the prime minister’s reaction”

    Via @thetimes

    There's an assumption that the promised "fan-led review" of football will be a non-event. But I wonder.

    I've noted before of Johnson that, when Mayor, he did have a significant success in improving cycle lane infrastructure, which happened because he gave the job to someone (Gilligan) who ended up being determined and capable.

    That's the pattern that he repeated with the Vaccine Taskforce.

    The review into football is an opportunity to do this again. Has anyone been given the job of organising it?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,351
    tlg86 said:

    The issue that Mercer has resigned over is something that seems to be an odd hill to die on ,as Patrick Maguire notes ‘Tory opponents of Troubles legacy prosecutions have more in common with Sinn Féin than they would ever admit, or, to be less charitable, ever realise. It suits both to argue that murder was as natural as the weather and, while regrettable, couldn’t be helped — never mind the law.‘

    This is probably why this doesn’t hurt Boris as most of his opponents are happy he’s renegade on this.

    It’s a tricky issue. Was giving immunity to murderers a price worth paying for peace in NI? Possibly. And whilst I understand the view that the British Army should be held to higher standards than the IRA or UVF or whoever, ultimately murder is murder whoever is perpetrating it.

    I think let the prosecutions happen, but no one convicted should be serving time in prison.

    Yes - if you read some of the evidence, prosecution is inescapable, except on the grounds that "they got away with it, so we should"

    Incidentally, the various promises/campaigns against the prosecutions has always used the words "unjustified" or similar. Given the evidence, pretty hard to describe the prosecutions as unjustified...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Boris should use the present ‘enormous goodwill’ from UEFA/FIFA to England, for saving football (see The Times, today) to unite the structures of English and Scottish league football, so the Old Firm can play in the British Prem, and Scotland League 1 feeds in like the English Championship.

    This saves Scottish fitba, produces some cracking matches - Celtic-Liverpool!! - reinforces Britishness and UEFA/FIFA are, right now, so grateful to English football they would agree to keeping the four home nations as is. All playing and voting individually

    Go for it, Boris.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Scott_xP said:

    NHS nurses get a pay cut – while a chum of the Prime Minister gets a tax break.

    Boris Johnson must appear before the Liaison Committee immediately - and there should be a thorough investigation into his conduct.
    https://www.itv.com/news/2021-04-21/labour-demands-probe-into-johnsons-conduct-in-cronyism-row

    Apart from the obvious retort - all efforts were being made to provide sufficient PPE to those nurses and frontline healthcare.
  • Anas Sarwar’s approval rating has doubled in the eight weeks since he took charge of Scottish Labour while his party is gaining ground on the Tories in the battle to “lead the unionist cause”, a poll has found.

    The SNP remains on course for a majority at next month’s election, according to the YouGov survey, but its support is slipping and backing for independence, at 47 per cent, has fallen by two percentage points compared with the previous poll early last month.

    The Scottish Conservatives would comfortably retain second place under the poll findings, despite Douglas Ross, the party’s leader, seeing his popularity plummet. His overall approval rating has fallen by 12 points to minus 33, with 18 per cent of people saying he is performing well, down two points. In total, 51 per cent say he is doing a bad job, an increase of ten points.

    By contrast the proportion of voters who believe Sarwar is doing a good job has risen from 18 per cent to 39 per cent since the beginning of March. About 21 per cent believe think he is performing poorly, up six points, giving him an overall rating of plus 18.

    Nicola Sturgeon remains Scotland’s most popular political leader with a rating of plus 25, falling two points since last month.

    According to the poll, support for the SNP has fallen by a single point on the constituency ballot, to 49 per cent, but by seven points to 39 per cent on the regional list compared with a previously unpublished YouGov poll in mid-March of voting intentions.

    Backing for the Tories is at 21 per cent in constituencies and 22 per cent on the list, down from 24 per cent in both, while Labour’s vote share has increased to 21 per cent in the constituency and 17 per cent on the list, compared with 17 and 15 per cent respectively.

    Liberal Democrat support in constituencies has gone up by a point to 6 per cent while the Greens rose by two points to 10 per cent.

    Alba, Alex Salmond’s party, returned only 2 per cent while All for Unity, the group fronted by George Galloway, secured 1 per cent.

    Analysis by Curtice projects the SNP with a majority of two, having returned 66 MSPs. The Conservatives would win 27, Labour 19, the Greens 11 and the Lib Dems five. Alba would take one, owing to the party’s relatively strong showing in the Highlands and Islands in the poll — which could see Kirk Torrance returned as the party’s sole MSP rather than Salmond.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/anas-sarwars-popularity-surges-in-battle-to-lead-the-unionist-cause-g9zcwq9mj
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201
    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sturgeon's comments on bars and pubs are ridiculous. The populated parts of Scotland and England are a long way from each other.

    What did she say?
    Speaking at the Covid briefing, Ms Sturgeon said: “From Monday for a period until the middle of May actually there will be more hospitality open in Scotland than in England because there will be some indoor opening — albeit very restricted — that’s not the case yet in England.

    “So again if people are coming north across the border, you know, don’t sort of crowd into places — you shouldn’t be allowed to crowd into places indoors — but don’t come specifically to sort of escape the rules in your own area.”


    How many people are going to head north JUST to go into a Scottish boozer ? It's preposterous.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    edited April 2021

    Leon said:

    BORIS IS ALLAH. BORIS SAVED FOOTBALL

    🚨⚽️ | NEW: The six Premier League clubs who were in the Super League were “stunned by the speed and force of the prime minister’s reaction”

    Via @thetimes

    There's an assumption that the promised "fan-led review" of football will be a non-event. But I wonder.

    I've noted before of Johnson that, when Mayor, he did have a significant success in improving cycle lane infrastructure, which happened because he gave the job to someone (Gilligan) who ended up being determined and capable.

    That's the pattern that he repeated with the Vaccine Taskforce.

    The review into football is an opportunity to do this again. Has anyone been given the job of organising it?
    Tracey Crouch, I believe.

    https://twitter.com/tracey_crouch/status/1384189645408280577
  • I find it incredible how widely opinion can swing on here in a few months.

    Go back a few months and it was about Johnson going in 2022, into the sunset. Now he’s going to be PM forever.

    I think beyond the vaccines he’s done a truly terrible job but I can’t help but respect his ability to win things and also to somehow come back from the dead.

    Of course the Government’s popularity sank into the floor very quickly and I am sure it will again. It’s just whether Johnson can continue to overcome gravity again. And all bets are off, I don’t have a clue.

    Anyone predicting a Johnson 10 year premiership is probably as justified as anyone predicting a one minute one. We don’t know.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    DavidL said:



    But the British army has a deserved reputation for holding itself to high standards

    Does it? I can only speak from personal experience in Iraq where we were certainly less rapey than the Americans and less trigger happy than the Australians but were absolute fuckers when it came to stealing and looting.

    Only a minute fraction of crimes committed on operations ever get investigated nevermind prosecuted so Mercer's objections are ludicrous.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,920

    Scott_xP said:

    NHS nurses get a pay cut – while a chum of the Prime Minister gets a tax break.

    Boris Johnson must appear before the Liaison Committee immediately - and there should be a thorough investigation into his conduct.
    https://www.itv.com/news/2021-04-21/labour-demands-probe-into-johnsons-conduct-in-cronyism-row

    Apart from the obvious retort - all efforts were being made to provide sufficient PPE to those nurses and frontline healthcare.
    Boris can dump the whole PPE mess into erstwhile leadership rival Jeremy Hunt's lap for it was Hunt who suppressed rather than acted on the Cygnus warnings of PPE shortages in a pandemic.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533
    edited April 2021

    Looking at the most recent polling for Holyrood I am of the opinion, that the Scottish electorate are being very ‘cannie’ if the polls are to be believed.

    It does seem that Salmond is ‘persona non grata’ in Scotland, indeed he is polling worse than Boris, and the electorate look as if they are to indulge in a substantial tactical vote on the list to ensure their second vote goes to green and thereby denies Salmond a place at the table in Holyrood.

    At the same time, the Scots like Sturgeon’s brand and are willing to grant her another term, but also are beginning to show signs that they are not as in favour of Independence as the SNP would have you believe, hence todays poll showing No ahead of Yes 48/44

    Nicola is far to good a politician to prejudice her legacy by going ‘gung-ho’ on indyref2 and. as she likes power, will use covid to delay indyref 2 as it is not the time

    As the next SNP Holyrood administration has to face the day to day job of health, education and a host of other subjects, neglected by the obsession with indyref2, Nicola will have all her work cut out just to keep the SNP popularity onside and I expect indyref2 will be parked until or unless there is a clear majority in Scotland for it.

    Now many will have their own opinion, but this is my view leading up to Holyrood 2021

    https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1385123806390456322?s=19

    The position which best balances the interests of UK, E and W and Scotland is for independence always to be a lawful option, for never enough people to really want it, and for parties sympathetic to putting Scotland first/independence to do well in Scotland.

    It has lots of downsides, including the chance that it will make Labour unelectable for some time, and permanently having annoying people overpopulating Scotland with political rubbish. Plus the outside chance that Scotland in a fit of lunacy would actually go for independence. But now the devolution Danegeld has been paid it's the best we can do.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    kinabalu said:

    I don't like Mercer - such a prima donna - but I do like his comments. It only confirms what all with faculties knew but it's good to hear it from an insider. Hopefully Labour can make hay.

    Labour can't make hay on this at all.

    They're delighted that the changes Mercer was arguing for have been delayed, and would be even more delighted if they are scrapped completely.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Boris should use the present ‘enormous goodwill’ from UEFA/FIFA to England, for saving football (see The Times, today) to unite the structures of English and Scottish league football, so the Old Firm can play in the British Prem, and Scotland League 1 feeds in like the English Championship.

    This saves Scottish fitba, produces some cracking matches - Celtic-Liverpool!! - reinforces Britishness and UEFA/FIFA are, right now, so grateful to English football they would agree to keeping the four home nations as is. All playing and voting individually

    Go for it, Boris.

    Why not go the extra mile and nationalize it? It's clearly viewed by all as an essential utility not a business in the discretionary leisure sector.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    HYUFD said:

    New Comres Holyrood poll has a swing of 1.75% from the SNP to the Scottish Conservatives since 2016 on the constituency vote and would see the Conservatives potentially gain Perthshire South and Kinrosshire from the SNP.

    https://twitter.com/BallotBoxScot/status/1385138364224000002?s=20

    The contrast between polling in the West Midlands, Scotland and Wales today suggests there will be something for everyone next month.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sturgeon's comments on bars and pubs are ridiculous. The populated parts of Scotland and England are a long way from each other.

    What did she say?
    Speaking at the Covid briefing, Ms Sturgeon said: “From Monday for a period until the middle of May actually there will be more hospitality open in Scotland than in England because there will be some indoor opening — albeit very restricted — that’s not the case yet in England.

    “So again if people are coming north across the border, you know, don’t sort of crowd into places — you shouldn’t be allowed to crowd into places indoors — but don’t come specifically to sort of escape the rules in your own area.”


    How many people are going to head north JUST to go into a Scottish boozer ? It's preposterous.
    But under her rules you can't drink indoors anyway. You'd be going all that way to sit in a pub and have an orange juice.
  • Looking at the most recent polling for Holyrood I am of the opinion, that the Scottish electorate are being very ‘cannie’ if the polls are to be believed.

    It does seem that Salmond is ‘persona non grata’ in Scotland, indeed he is polling worse than Boris, and the electorate look as if they are to indulge in a substantial tactical vote on the list to ensure their second vote goes to green and thereby denies Salmond a place at the table in Holyrood.

    At the same time, the Scots like Sturgeon’s brand and are willing to grant her another term, but also are beginning to show signs that they are not as in favour of Independence as the SNP would have you believe, hence todays poll showing No ahead of Yes 48/44

    Nicola is far to good a politician to prejudice her legacy by going ‘gung-ho’ on indyref2 and. as she likes power, will use covid to delay indyref 2 as it is not the time

    As the next SNP Holyrood administration has to face the day to day job of health, education and a host of other subjects, neglected by the obsession with indyref2, Nicola will have all her work cut out just to keep the SNP popularity onside and I expect indyref2 will be parked until or unless there is a clear majority in Scotland for it.

    Now many will have their own opinion, but this is my view leading up to Holyrood 2021

    https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1385123806390456322?s=19

    If parties pledged to independence with it clearly in their manifesto get re-elected that IS a clear majority for it. Democracy isn't based on opinion polls, it is based on elections.

    You will need to be ready to explain why democracy doesn't really count unless you vote for the thing you believe in. And we all know that you are the arrange marriage to Boris Johnson as Prince Akeem, you believe in whatever he believes in. But you are very good at hopping on one leg whilst barking like a dog, so thats ok.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,873
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sturgeon's comments on bars and pubs are ridiculous. The populated parts of Scotland and England are a long way from each other.

    What did she say?
    Speaking at the Covid briefing, Ms Sturgeon said: “From Monday for a period until the middle of May actually there will be more hospitality open in Scotland than in England because there will be some indoor opening — albeit very restricted — that’s not the case yet in England.

    “So again if people are coming north across the border, you know, don’t sort of crowd into places — you shouldn’t be allowed to crowd into places indoors — but don’t come specifically to sort of escape the rules in your own area.”


    How many people are going to head north JUST to go into a Scottish boozer ? It's preposterous.
    Not at all. Think A1 and A7 crossings, Carlisle and Berwick, and rainy weather. Not to mention Coldstream/Cornhill.
  • MaxPB said:

    "A few years ago, Johnson, with the help of Dominic Cummings, did something remarkable. He bothered to listen to the suburbs, to the lower middle and working class voters who voted for Churchill, for Macmillan and Thatcher. He visited new build estates in the North, with their open plan kitchens, trampolines in the garden and Nissan Qashqai mini-SUVs on the driveway"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/21/boriss-big-green-gamble-risks-fuelling-anew-brexit-style-revolt/

    To credit the PM, he got this issue and treated it far more intelligently than Iain Duncan Smith before him. Liar went to estates, spoke to people and gave them what they wanted, Satan went to estates, saw what sin looked like, and brought the wrath of (his version of) God upon them with punitive social security changes.
    Give it a rest. I really think you should seek help over this issue you've got with Boris. We get it, you don't like him. You're letting it rule every waking moment of your life.
    I am? Hardly...
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    Alistair said:

    Anecdote tiem: if results were governed by window posters the the Greens would be set to sweep all the seats in edinburgh.

    I have given both my votes in Edinburgh to the Greens.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,746
    Back to the wild bear thread... Would at least give us another thing (walking in the woods) that is higher risk than taking the AZN vaccine?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    algarkirk said:

    Leon said:

    Boris might end up the prime minister that:

    Saved Brexit
    Saved the Union
    Saved Football


    That’s probably enough to put him in the top rank of PMs since WW2?

    Could be. Politics is not a competition assessed by any objective means, like honesty and truthfulness. All politicians all the time use a weird form of language unrelated to normality to hide the more Socratic sorts of truth. (Boris uses far more normal language than most. It is part of his genius).

    The Peter Obornes and Guardians are missing the point. To be and stay at the top is to be judged by voters alone, and their judgements are formed by the standards of our day, and voters decide what they are - just like football supporters decide what counts as a proper football competition.

    Having said that, when Boris's wheels come off it will be spectacular.
    Marched out of No 10 in handcuffs?
    Actually more likely Carrie, flanked by Allegra, flouncing out plus baby and suitcases. When the Press is coutszidq expecting a statement.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sturgeon's comments on bars and pubs are ridiculous. The populated parts of Scotland and England are a long way from each other.

    What did she say?
    Speaking at the Covid briefing, Ms Sturgeon said: “From Monday for a period until the middle of May actually there will be more hospitality open in Scotland than in England because there will be some indoor opening — albeit very restricted — that’s not the case yet in England.

    “So again if people are coming north across the border, you know, don’t sort of crowd into places — you shouldn’t be allowed to crowd into places indoors — but don’t come specifically to sort of escape the rules in your own area.”


    How many people are going to head north JUST to go into a Scottish boozer ? It's preposterous.
    Not at all. Think A1 and A7 crossings, Carlisle and Berwick, and rainy weather. Not to mention Coldstream/Cornhill.
    Why bother of you can't drink in them? Last time I checked pubs and restaurants can't serve booze indoors until May 17th, the same day as England and Wales.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    Boris should use the present ‘enormous goodwill’ from UEFA/FIFA to England, for saving football (see The Times, today) to unite the structures of English and Scottish league football, so the Old Firm can play in the British Prem, and Scotland League 1 feeds in like the English Championship.

    This saves Scottish fitba, produces some cracking matches - Celtic-Liverpool!! - reinforces Britishness and UEFA/FIFA are, right now, so grateful to English football they would agree to keeping the four home nations as is. All playing and voting individually

    Go for it, Boris.

    Why not go the extra mile and nationalize it? It's clearly viewed by all as an essential utility not a business in the discretionary leisure sector.
    There's no way of telling whether Leon is still drinking from last night or has started today's session at an alarmingly early hour.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    That is even better than the last poll for the Conservatives in the West Midlands.
  • I had a glut of leaflets with yesterday's post. I did enjoy the one from the Reform Scotland party asking me to vote for their candidate in a seat that isn't here. The Alba leaflet was a poster on the back. And despite this being Salmond-country the only Alba posters or boards of any description I have seen are in Salmond's garden.
  • Leon said:

    Boris should use the present ‘enormous goodwill’ from UEFA/FIFA to England, for saving football (see The Times, today) to unite the structures of English and Scottish league football, so the Old Firm can play in the British Prem, and Scotland League 1 feeds in like the English Championship.

    This saves Scottish fitba, produces some cracking matches - Celtic-Liverpool!! - reinforces Britishness and UEFA/FIFA are, right now, so grateful to English football they would agree to keeping the four home nations as is. All playing and voting individually

    Go for it, Boris.

    You really don't know anything about football.

    No way anyone in the EPL or English football wants Rangers and Celtic in the PL

    Which two clubs are going to make way for them, as the PL doesn't have the scope in the calendar for a 22 club PL.
  • Support for Scottish independence has fallen to its lowest level in more than a year, according to a new poll.

    Research for The Times found that 47 per cent of voters want Scotland to be an independent country when undecided voters are excluded. That represents a dip of two percentage points compared with the last time YouGov asked the question in early March and is the smallest return for separation since December 2019.

    With all voters included, 45 per cent said they would vote “no” and 39 per cent “yes” in a referendum asking if Scotland should become independent. Ten per cent were undecided, 4 per cent would not vote and 2 per cent refused to disclose their intentions.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/six-point-lead-for-the-union-as-support-for-independence-falls-6dk97n3hk
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited April 2021
    Leon said:

    Fishing said:

    Leon said:

    BORIS IS ALLAH. BORIS SAVED FOOTBALL

    🚨⚽️ | NEW: The six Premier League clubs who were in the Super League were “stunned by the speed and force of the prime minister’s reaction”

    Via @thetimes

    Like me, they found it amazing that the Prime Minister would involve himself in this irrelevant non-story.
    I read in the Times that football generates £10bn a year in exports for Britain.

    Where's your reference for that? I've seen £1.1bn for broadcast exports, whch is not even a rounding error in a £2trn economy.

    https://assets.ey.com/content/dam/ey-sites/ey-com/pt_br/topics/ey-economic-advisory-/ey-premier-league-economic-and-social-impact-january-2019.pdf

    And there is a more important principle here, which is that governments do not know better than business what is good for business.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,348
    Pulpstar said:

    Sturgeon's comments on bars and pubs are ridiculous. The populated parts of Scotland and England are a long way from each other. Who is going to go on a 5 hour drive mainly to sit inside a Glasgow pub ?
    And if you are up from a 7 hour drive to your Blairgowrie caravan and fancy a quiet meal indoors on a fresh day in the Highlands - why should you be prevented when those are the Scottish rules ?

    She has lost the plot on Covid and wants to delay everything so she can continue to grandstand daily on TV. She is loving it.
  • lloydylloydy Posts: 36
    Stocky said:

    impartial said:

    Had an interesting zoom with a friend who until very recently worked in Number 10. Been there since Blair years in a junior post. I asked her about the various PMs . She said the working environment changed with each one. Under Blair - relaxed. Brown - austere. Coalition/Cameron - friendly kind. May - cold. Boris - chaotic fearful.

    Boris - chaotic fearful: yes, but it doesn't have to be this way with the size of his majority. Why are they so weak and rudderless? Is this what comes from a lack of principle?
    Boris sounds a bit like Jim Hacker from this. I wonder whether he's been house trained by Sir Humphrey.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201
    edited April 2021
    Carnyx said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sturgeon's comments on bars and pubs are ridiculous. The populated parts of Scotland and England are a long way from each other.

    What did she say?
    Speaking at the Covid briefing, Ms Sturgeon said: “From Monday for a period until the middle of May actually there will be more hospitality open in Scotland than in England because there will be some indoor opening — albeit very restricted — that’s not the case yet in England.

    “So again if people are coming north across the border, you know, don’t sort of crowd into places — you shouldn’t be allowed to crowd into places indoors — but don’t come specifically to sort of escape the rules in your own area.”


    How many people are going to head north JUST to go into a Scottish boozer ? It's preposterous.
    Not at all. Think A1 and A7 crossings, Carlisle and Berwick, and rainy weather. Not to mention Coldstream/Cornhill.
    Cornhill ! It's barely bigger than a hamlet.

    Lots of effort to make pensioners of Cornhill think twice before heading to the Newcastle arms for an orange juice in Coldstream
This discussion has been closed.