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Alba just get 3% in first Scottish poll since Salmond launched his new party – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    Foxy said:

    Might the Sarah Everard case have got extra attention because she was in London?

    I think what annoys me is the lack of the outrage that we saw for the everard case. It’s as if her death is less heinous in some way. Not just the press and media, but all the howling Twitter items and commentators don’t seem to care about this case. Like the circus has moved on. It’s very sad.
    2 women get murdered each week or so. Jess Phillips reads their names in Parliament each year on Internationl Women's Day.

    Not many make more than a paragraph in the local paper.
    I guess I’m just struck by my perceived similarity of the cases, and the disparity of the ‘popular’ response. Saddened really, as to me it diminishes the effect of what has gone before.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Might the Sarah Everard case have got extra attention because she was in London?

    Well it is the capital city with over 1/6th of the population.
    I'm slightly troubled by the idea that someone being murdered in London matters more than if it happens elsewhere.

    And if you are talking UK I don't think London is one in seven let alone one in six.
    That's correct. London was home to about 13.5% of the UK population in 2019, or one in seven-and-a-half. That figure is likely lower now as a consequence of the pandemic (resulting both in economic migrants leaving Britain, and locked down Londoners fleeing to the shires in search of more reasonably priced houses with gardens.)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,349

    HYUFD said:

    On this poll the SNP would win 0 list seats and their majority would be entirely dependent on the constituencies.

    As the SNP are now under 50% on the constituency vote, Unionist tactical voting could be key in depriving them of that majority

    I am not an SNP fan but if they get near 50% of the constituency vote they could get close to all of the 73 constituency seats. Opposition vote split between LAB, LD, CON, GRN etc.

    They 'only' need 65 for a majority.

    Agree that SNP will probably win 0 list seats.
    Who runs the Scottish parliament is a domestic matter for the Scots. The important UK question for the rest of us (unionists anyway) is whether there is now, or the SNP etc can generate, a significant, long term and enduring majority for independence in polling. This needs to be heading towards 60%.

    Unless they can Westminster has reason to say no, while holding in reserve the power to have a Ref2 at a time of its choosing for more cynical reasons. And unless they can be sure of winning, for which they need a consistent up to 60% polling, SNP will not go for it, whatever the machinations, because it can't rely on winning and a Ref2 lost would throw open Scottish politics to competitors. The SNP quite like where they are now.

    The evidence that they can get to the point where they can be sure of winning is lacking, and there is no straws in the wind pointing to change.

    Conclusion: Independence will not happen in the foreseeable future. Even the first hurdle is too great and there are lots more.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited April 2021
    Why is it realistic for Australia and NZ to close their borders in order to prevent Covid-19 from entering the country, but it isn't realistic for us to do the same with regard to France and other places?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    You do realise it is impossible to get to 100% vaccinated?

    We are basically at herd immunity now. No one around here is sticking to the rules, and R is below 1...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    As expected Alba is a damp squib.
    I predicted as much.

    It is REALLY hard to get over 5% as a new party, especially when your leader is a known (but legally unblemished) sex pest.

    What is disappointing from a Unionist perspective is no obvious “bounce” for Anas Sarwar and little damage to the SNP. And the Greens appear completely unscathed.

    No, it's gravy for unionists. The Nationalist cause is schismatized, and seems bitterly divided, and Boris can dismiss the new Holyrood as a gamed system

    If Alba do this badly, Salmond has done terrible damage to indy. We shall see
    The way this poll in the header looks, the embarrassing and degrading mess over the last months has not dampened enthusiasm for an SNP majority. The SNP are through the worst too and are likely to get stronger.
    Schisms are bad. I know you want the SNP to win so Scotland goes indy to punish us for voting Brexit, but, schisms are bad. They generally hinder the cause

    It would be surprising, but not impossible, if this were an exception, but so far it looks like proving the rule

    I readily admit that if Alba gets 15 seats on the List (and the SNP gets zillions of constituency seats) then that will boost the indy cause. Boris will still refuse a vote, but there is then a chance that Scotland will surge into passive mass resistance and Mahatama Gandhi stylee bullshit.

    And then, after five years, the YES vote could be consistently over 60% and Britain is done for. Certainly possible
    It was only Attlee's Labour Party who granted Gandhi Indian independence, Churchill's Tory led government ignored him on the whole
    Churchill’s Tory led government that locked him in prison for two years?
    The point being they certainly did not concede him anything, it was only Attlee's Labour Party winning the 1945 election that led to Indian independence in 1947
    It was an awful lot more complicated than that. True. Churchill refused to consider anything while the war was on, but between American support for decolonisation, the concession of a stated goal of Dominion status in 1935, the weak economic position of Britain, unrest elsewhere spreading the army very thin and the situation in India itself, there was no realistic way that India would have remained a British colony much beyond 1947 even if the ghosts of F E Smith and Clive had been leading the government.

    It might have been postponed to 1949-50, but realistically not later. The French couldn’t even hold Vietnam beyond 1954 and they wasted an awful lot of men, time and effort trying.

    Of course, if it had been delayed to 1949 there might have been no partition as the death of Jinnah would have removed a key obstacle. But don’t delude yourself* that Churchill would somehow have clung on for a significant length of time more than Attlee did.

    * Admittedly this would be a break with a fine PB traidition.
  • Labour hold in Hartlepool
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    It will only be 'popular' amongst people who dont go to pubs or football games.

    Single handedly reinvigorating the LDs and the UKIP tendency whilst also pissing off enough Tory MPs to lose him the leadership? Boris needs Dom back....
    'Lose him the leadership' seems a stretch. The Tories are at worst doing ok in the polls, and Boris delivered many of them into their seats. Piss off enough to provoke a challenge? Maybe, although we've seen how hard it is to get people to front up and do that, not just whinge behind closed doors, and even then would he lose? I cannot see it. Look what it took to get a formal challenge on May, and she survived it. Yes, as a political zombie, but it shows how hard it is.

    That the idea may invigorate opposition within and without the party for a lack of appreciable gain does seem the salient point. Sure, the public are in favour as they are with any measure that looks tough, but what extra political benefit does Boris get from this that he does not already have?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Now, was the A&E in Hartlepool closed down because of unnecessary penny-pinching, or because it was considered a good idea from a clinical point of view to concentrate acute services in one, larger centre? I've no idea, BTW.

    In the latter case, the argument that the hospital in Stockton is one of the local hospitals for Hartlepool and that the investment benefits the town is entirely valid, and not compromised by the retort that the local A&E should not have been closed in the first place, because it resulted in local services deteriorating.

    That said, from a purely party political angle, it's a good line of attack for Labour to deploy. People do rather tend to believe that their little local hospital should be all singing and all dancing, regardless of whether or not a system of larger hub hospitals orbited by smaller satellite ones might provide a better overall standard of care, or not. The NHS-as-religion thing hardly helps: the public takes great pride in the local temple and wishes to see it beautified.
    I don't know the medical geography of the area, but small A and E units, like small maternity units are intrinsically unsafe because of staffing issues.

    A population of 500 000 is pretty much the minimum for a viable hospital, and well over that for major trauma, or acute stroke or cardiac services.
    We have at least 3 major hospitals with big A&E departments here on Tyneside. 2 of them within 5 miles of each other. So I can see why places like Hartlepool might get miffed.
    Yeah, but what is the population of the catchement area?
    1m+ plus. But the point is that people have to travel 30 miles from Hexham to Newcastle, or 55+ miles from Berwick to Cramlington. It's just not good service.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited April 2021

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited April 2021

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    Because one of the things that makes this country different to most places is precisely that we don't have to show ID for anything, unless we're at the airport about to board an international flight, or a ferry terminal. I happen to like that aspect of UK life. Drivers don't even need to have their licence with them in the car.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/fe234f59-75b9-44f7-af8a-f05e588957b7#

    Greensill Capital’s administrator has failed to verify invoices underpinning loans to Sanjeev Gupta, after companies listed on the documents denied that they had ever done business with the metals magnate.

    If this is true, then things are likely to end very poorly for GFG, Liberty, and for various politicians who guaranteed GFG loans.


    Bloody hell, this is Wirecard level of awful. The auditor is going to be in big trouble too.
    According to the FT article, there are invoices to firms that do not even have trading relationships with GFG.

    That's a major, major issue. Because auditors should check pretty much all major trading relationships actually exist, and then should spot check invoices.

    (I don't personally think this is quite as bad as Wirecard, because GFG/Greensill didn't get the UK regulator to threaten journalists who asked awkward questions.)
    You might want to clarify that the *UK* regulator did no such thing in the Wirecard situation
    Ah yes, I meant BaFin went around threatening journalists who asked awkward questions about Wirecard.

    One might note that Greensill also had a German bank regulated by... BaFin. Who failed (once again) to notice any wrongdoing.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    We already have a plan to open up the economy. We're Step 1/3 through it. None of it involved vaccine passports.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Floater said:
    At what point does some exasperated soldier shoot Bolsonaro and declare martial law?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    £21m - chicken feed.

    The EU has been relatively quiet on the outrage stoking this week, might be best to let things lie for a bit for a bit of peace and quiet.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    Floater said:
    Didn’t the levellers write ‘Battle of the beanfield’? Great band...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    It will only be 'popular' amongst people who dont go to pubs or football games.

    Single handedly reinvigorating the LDs and the UKIP tendency whilst also pissing off enough Tory MPs to lose him the leadership? Boris needs Dom back....
    'Lose him the leadership' seems a stretch. The Tories are at worst doing ok in the polls, and Boris delivered many of them into their seats. Piss off enough to provoke a challenge? Maybe, although we've seen how hard it is to get people to front up and do that, not just whinge behind closed doors, and even then would he lose? I cannot see it. Look what it took to get a formal challenge on May, and she survived it. Yes, as a political zombie, but it shows how hard it is.

    That the idea may invigorate opposition within and without the party for a lack of appreciable gain does seem the salient point. Sure, the public are in favour as they are with any measure that looks tough, but what extra political benefit does Boris get from this that he does not already have?
    The polling on it linked the idea to opening up, didn't it? Poll it without that. Run it again in the context of 'by the time this could be introduced, the Covid pandemic would be over in the UK. Should we introduce paperwork requirements to go to the pub' and you're getting the 15% of fearties in favour. The 15% who, incidentally, might go to the pub 3 times a year in normal times....
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited April 2021
    @Mexicanpete please explain why vaccine passports will help anyone? Please. Please explain the benefit.

    Like I said. I'm vaccinated. I have 70 odd percent protection against any form of COVID symptom and 100% protection against severe disease. Why do I care one bit if anyone else in the restaurant or pub or nightclub has been vaccinated or not?

    Especially when a good 60-70% of them will have been vaccinated in any case, vaccine passport or no vaccine passport.
  • Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
    I am wary of that accusation, especially as my wife and I are elderly pensioners, but we all need to recognise a responsible and monitored return to normal is in everyone’s interests and it has to be said, I do believe the population at large are on this page but not on this forum which seems to want to go back to normal and risk further variants and serious issues

    It is fair to say none of this will effect us directly as attendance at sporting events, restaurants and pubs are not on our agenda

    However, it does not stop us seeing the broader picture and I am not making selfish comments against our very precious young who include our grandchildren
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    It will only be 'popular' amongst people who dont go to pubs or football games.

    Single handedly reinvigorating the LDs and the UKIP tendency whilst also pissing off enough Tory MPs to lose him the leadership? Boris needs Dom back....
    'Lose him the leadership' seems a stretch. The Tories are at worst doing ok in the polls, and Boris delivered many of them into their seats. Piss off enough to provoke a challenge? Maybe, although we've seen how hard it is to get people to front up and do that, not just whinge behind closed doors, and even then would he lose? I cannot see it. Look what it took to get a formal challenge on May, and she survived it. Yes, as a political zombie, but it shows how hard it is.

    That the idea may invigorate opposition within and without the party for a lack of appreciable gain does seem the salient point. Sure, the public are in favour as they are with any measure that looks tough, but what extra political benefit does Boris get from this that he does not already have?
    It's an interesting question as to whether if wor Dom was still around this would be going ahead. On one hand he would love all the data that could be processed from tracking the entire population but on the other he thinks the civil service is f*cking useless so why give them another tool to play games with.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    As expected Alba is a damp squib.
    I predicted as much.

    It is REALLY hard to get over 5% as a new party, especially when your leader is a known (but legally unblemished) sex pest.

    What is disappointing from a Unionist perspective is no obvious “bounce” for Anas Sarwar and little damage to the SNP. And the Greens appear completely unscathed.

    No, it's gravy for unionists. The Nationalist cause is schismatized, and seems bitterly divided, and Boris can dismiss the new Holyrood as a gamed system

    If Alba do this badly, Salmond has done terrible damage to indy. We shall see
    The way this poll in the header looks, the embarrassing and degrading mess over the last months has not dampened enthusiasm for an SNP majority. The SNP are through the worst too and are likely to get stronger.
    Schisms are bad. I know you want the SNP to win so Scotland goes indy to punish us for voting Brexit, but, schisms are bad. They generally hinder the cause

    It would be surprising, but not impossible, if this were an exception, but so far it looks like proving the rule

    I readily admit that if Alba gets 15 seats on the List (and the SNP gets zillions of constituency seats) then that will boost the indy cause. Boris will still refuse a vote, but there is then a chance that Scotland will surge into passive mass resistance and Mahatama Gandhi stylee bullshit.

    And then, after five years, the YES vote could be consistently over 60% and Britain is done for. Certainly possible
    It was only Attlee's Labour Party who granted Gandhi Indian independence, Churchill's Tory led government ignored him on the whole
    Churchill’s Tory led government that locked him in prison for two years?
    The point being they certainly did not concede him anything, it was only Attlee's Labour Party winning the 1945 election that led to Indian independence in 1947
    It was an awful lot more complicated than that. True. Churchill refused to consider anything while the war was on, but between American support for decolonisation, the concession of a stated goal of Dominion status in 1935, the weak economic position of Britain, unrest elsewhere spreading the army very thin and the situation in India itself, there was no realistic way that India would have remained a British colony much beyond 1947 even if the ghosts of F E Smith and Clive had been leading the government.

    It might have been postponed to 1949-50, but realistically not later. The French couldn’t even hold Vietnam beyond 1954 and they wasted an awful lot of men, time and effort trying.

    Of course, if it had been delayed to 1949 there might have been no partition as the death of Jinnah would have removed a key obstacle. But don’t delude yourself* that Churchill would somehow have clung on for a significant length of time more than Attlee did.

    * Admittedly this would be a break with a fine PB traidition.
    Britain would probably have been able to hold on in some form or another for quite a long time if WW2 had not broken out. The Princely States would have backed them (generally) and the composition of the Indian Army pre-WW2 meant they had a reliable force to suppress disorder.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    Really?

    You think holding Hartlepool would be a resounding success?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    Airdrie and Shotts. Admittedly not a Lab/Con seat.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005

    Might the Sarah Everard case have got extra attention because she was in London?

    Well it is the capital city with over 1/6th of the population.
    I'm slightly troubled by the idea that someone being murdered in London matters more than if it happens elsewhere.

    And if you are talking UK I don't think London is one in seven let alone one in six.
    That's correct. London was home to about 13.5% of the UK population in 2019, or one in seven-and-a-half. That figure is likely lower now as a consequence of the pandemic (resulting both in economic migrants leaving Britain, and locked down Londoners fleeing to the shires in search of more reasonably priced houses with gardens.)
    To be fair if the UK population is about 66m then 1 in 6 would be 11m. I suppose a London metropolitan area could be manufactured along those lines.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    We should never have listened to Ferguson and his phoney figures. Here's a pandemic we had earlier ...

    https://sputniknews.com/columnists/202103261082459731-hong-kong-flu-and-covid-how-no-lockdown-harold-wilson-proved-to-be-better-pm-than-boris-johnson/
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    It will only be 'popular' amongst people who dont go to pubs or football games.

    Single handedly reinvigorating the LDs and the UKIP tendency whilst also pissing off enough Tory MPs to lose him the leadership? Boris needs Dom back....
    'Lose him the leadership' seems a stretch. The Tories are at worst doing ok in the polls, and Boris delivered many of them into their seats. Piss off enough to provoke a challenge? Maybe, although we've seen how hard it is to get people to front up and do that, not just whinge behind closed doors, and even then would he lose? I cannot see it. Look what it took to get a formal challenge on May, and she survived it. Yes, as a political zombie, but it shows how hard it is.

    That the idea may invigorate opposition within and without the party for a lack of appreciable gain does seem the salient point. Sure, the public are in favour as they are with any measure that looks tough, but what extra political benefit does Boris get from this that he does not already have?
    The polling on it linked the idea to opening up, didn't it? Poll it without that. Run it again in the context of 'by the time this could be introduced, the Covid pandemic would be over in the UK. Should we introduce paperwork requirements to go to the pub' and you're getting the 15% of fearties in favour. The 15% who, incidentally, might go to the pub 3 times a year in normal times....
    'The 15% who, incidentally, might go to the pub 3 times a year in normal times'

    That's the thing. There are LOADS of people - in reality much more than 15% - who never or rarely go to the pub. Bringing in 'pub passports' will not bring in any extra trade from them. Just like when smoking was banned in pubs, it discouraged millions from going but brought in virtually no new business.
  • Labour hold in Hartlepool

    When was the vote
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited April 2021
    MrEd said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    As expected Alba is a damp squib.
    I predicted as much.

    It is REALLY hard to get over 5% as a new party, especially when your leader is a known (but legally unblemished) sex pest.

    What is disappointing from a Unionist perspective is no obvious “bounce” for Anas Sarwar and little damage to the SNP. And the Greens appear completely unscathed.

    No, it's gravy for unionists. The Nationalist cause is schismatized, and seems bitterly divided, and Boris can dismiss the new Holyrood as a gamed system

    If Alba do this badly, Salmond has done terrible damage to indy. We shall see
    The way this poll in the header looks, the embarrassing and degrading mess over the last months has not dampened enthusiasm for an SNP majority. The SNP are through the worst too and are likely to get stronger.
    Schisms are bad. I know you want the SNP to win so Scotland goes indy to punish us for voting Brexit, but, schisms are bad. They generally hinder the cause

    It would be surprising, but not impossible, if this were an exception, but so far it looks like proving the rule

    I readily admit that if Alba gets 15 seats on the List (and the SNP gets zillions of constituency seats) then that will boost the indy cause. Boris will still refuse a vote, but there is then a chance that Scotland will surge into passive mass resistance and Mahatama Gandhi stylee bullshit.

    And then, after five years, the YES vote could be consistently over 60% and Britain is done for. Certainly possible
    It was only Attlee's Labour Party who granted Gandhi Indian independence, Churchill's Tory led government ignored him on the whole
    Churchill’s Tory led government that locked him in prison for two years?
    The point being they certainly did not concede him anything, it was only Attlee's Labour Party winning the 1945 election that led to Indian independence in 1947
    It was an awful lot more complicated than that. True. Churchill refused to consider anything while the war was on, but between American support for decolonisation, the concession of a stated goal of Dominion status in 1935, the weak economic position of Britain, unrest elsewhere spreading the army very thin and the situation in India itself, there was no realistic way that India would have remained a British colony much beyond 1947 even if the ghosts of F E Smith and Clive had been leading the government.

    It might have been postponed to 1949-50, but realistically not later. The French couldn’t even hold Vietnam beyond 1954 and they wasted an awful lot of men, time and effort trying.

    Of course, if it had been delayed to 1949 there might have been no partition as the death of Jinnah would have removed a key obstacle. But don’t delude yourself* that Churchill would somehow have clung on for a significant length of time more than Attlee did.

    * Admittedly this would be a break with a fine PB traidition.
    Britain would probably have been able to hold on in some form or another for quite a long time if WW2 had not broken out. The Princely States would have backed them (generally) and the composition of the Indian Army pre-WW2 meant they had a reliable force to suppress disorder.
    And Churchill would never have been PM if WWII had not broken out, the succession remaining in the hands of the Chamberlain group who wrote the Government of India Act, so the point is moot.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,856

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    So why isn’t this murder attracting the same opprobrium as that of Sarah Everard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56569863
    Genuine question as this seemed equally horrifying.

    Agree but (1) the victim is not a white middle class woman living in Zones 1-2 London and working in a media industry job and (2) the perpetrator is an illegal asylum seeker who should have been kicked out of the country but wasn't so both the authorities and the left are not too keen on having the story being publicised.
    Point 1 is the first half of the explanation, but the second is that Sarah Everard was abducted. Lorraine Cox appears to have been persuaded to go back to her killer's home. Both were cruel murders, but the former involved, from the point of view of the media and the wider public that consume it, a more sympathetic victim and far more sensational circumstances.

    If point 2 had anything to do with it then why would the majority of the press that is NOT particularly forgiving of failed asylum seekers being left at liberty to commit horrendous crimes not pick up the ball and run with this?

    Whilst we are fortunate not to live in an atypically brutal society, people are nonetheless murdered regularly, and killings therefore need to be exceptional to achieve notoriety. The depressing monotony of young men stabbed to death on the streets, and women bludgeoned to death by violent partners at home, goes mostly unnoticed because society is used to it. Like deaths from Winter flu or road traffic accidents, if it doesn't involve you personally, it's just background noise. One column at the bottom of page 14 of a newspaper. Statistics.
    I think the fact that Lorraine Cox went back might be part of the reason but only a small part. The bigger part I would argue is the victim is of a similar profile to many of the journalists that would be writing about her. Journalists tend to focus on what they recognise most. How many pictures did we have of North London residents clapping during the lockdowns?

    As for Point 2, simple question (and this one is for @stodge as well). Let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man. Do we think The Guardian would have similarly relegated the story (ps try finding it on their website)?
    It is right there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/01/man-convicted-of-murdering-and-dismembering-woman-in-exeter-lorraine-cox
    Not really on the front page was it?

    You had to go to the UK section, then you had to scroll down to near the bottom.

    When you read the story, also no mention of the fact that he was an illegal asylum seeker.

    Stop embarrassing yourself, from The Guardian article.

    Mangori insisted Cox had died from drink and drugs and said he did not call for help because a claim he made for asylum in the UK had been rejected and he was facing deportation.
    ASYLUM SEEKER murders woman. Page one.

    Anything else a lefty cover up.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    I find myself agreeing with @Mortimer yet again, although weirdly this time from opposite sides of party politics.

    Labour should not be boasting about holding Hartlepool. That I even have to write that is depressing.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Another reason why the vaccine passport is a stupid idea — no one will use it. People might say they support the idea in the polling but look at the pathetic uptake of the NHS COVID tracking app.

    Nobody bothers with any of the checking in anymore because it's a right faff on.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    You do realise it is impossible to get to 100% vaccinated?

    We are basically at herd immunity now. No one around here is sticking to the rules, and R is below 1...
    We don't need 100%. As you say can't be done anyway. Some people can't take it.

    Enough of the population will be done long before vaccine passport is available and running successfully.

    So why do we need it?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    So why isn’t this murder attracting the same opprobrium as that of Sarah Everard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56569863
    Genuine question as this seemed equally horrifying.

    Agree but (1) the victim is not a white middle class woman living in Zones 1-2 London and working in a media industry job and (2) the perpetrator is an illegal asylum seeker who should have been kicked out of the country but wasn't so both the authorities and the left are not too keen on having the story being publicised.
    Point 1 is the first half of the explanation, but the second is that Sarah Everard was abducted. Lorraine Cox appears to have been persuaded to go back to her killer's home. Both were cruel murders, but the former involved, from the point of view of the media and the wider public that consume it, a more sympathetic victim and far more sensational circumstances.

    If point 2 had anything to do with it then why would the majority of the press that is NOT particularly forgiving of failed asylum seekers being left at liberty to commit horrendous crimes not pick up the ball and run with this?

    Whilst we are fortunate not to live in an atypically brutal society, people are nonetheless murdered regularly, and killings therefore need to be exceptional to achieve notoriety. The depressing monotony of young men stabbed to death on the streets, and women bludgeoned to death by violent partners at home, goes mostly unnoticed because society is used to it. Like deaths from Winter flu or road traffic accidents, if it doesn't involve you personally, it's just background noise. One column at the bottom of page 14 of a newspaper. Statistics.
    I think the fact that Lorraine Cox went back might be part of the reason but only a small part. The bigger part I would argue is the victim is of a similar profile to many of the journalists that would be writing about her. Journalists tend to focus on what they recognise most. How many pictures did we have of North London residents clapping during the lockdowns?

    As for Point 2, simple question (and this one is for @stodge as well). Let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man. Do we think The Guardian would have similarly relegated the story (ps try finding it on their website)?
    It is right there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/01/man-convicted-of-murdering-and-dismembering-woman-in-exeter-lorraine-cox
    Not really on the front page was it?

    You had to go to the UK section, then you had to scroll down to near the bottom.

    When you read the story, also no mention of the fact that he was an illegal asylum seeker.

    Stop embarrassing yourself, from The Guardian article.

    Mangori insisted Cox had died from drink and drugs and said he did not call for help because a claim he made for asylum in the UK had been rejected and he was facing deportation.
    I'll do that if you also stop embarrassing yourself by pretending that the Lorraine Cox has been handled differently to Sarah Everard.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Turns out there are 22 Republics within Russia. I'd not recommending listing them all be a pub quiz question.

    The state also includes the 'Jewish Autonomous Oblast' (though Jews now make up less than 1% of the population). Thanks wiki!

    This is the flag of the Oblast

    They look very lgbt friendly...
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
    I am wary of that accusation, especially as my wife and I are elderly pensioners, but we all need to recognise a responsible and monitored return to normal is in everyone’s interests and it has to be said, I do believe the population at large are on this page but not on this forum which seems to want to go back to normal and risk further variants and serious issues

    It is fair to say none of this will effect us directly as attendance at sporting events, restaurants and pubs are not on our agenda

    However, it does not stop us seeing the broader picture and I am not making selfish comments against our very precious young who include our grandchildren
    I am 34. Not a single person I know of (aged 15-80) is in favour of tightening restrictions and becoming a papers please type of society. They all have a decent understanding of how science works. They also enjoy the freedoms that this country usually stands for.

    I enjoy sports events, gigs, bars and restaurants. Perhaps let my generation, who have suffered a lot to save the older generation, take the lead on this. If for no other reason than we are the likely customers, and also those whose civil liberties will be infringed.


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,856
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    Really?

    You think holding Hartlepool would be a resounding success?
    It would. The old shibboleths don't apply to the new post Brexit politics.

    I'm on the Cons at evens. Hope to lose but expect to win.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    You do realise it is impossible to get to 100% vaccinated?

    We are basically at herd immunity now. No one around here is sticking to the rules, and R is below 1...
    I know I'm repeating myself, but in israel both the nightclubs and the borders are now open.

    And cases continue to fall.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    Might the Sarah Everard case have got extra attention because she was in London?

    Well it is the capital city with over 1/6th of the population.
    Why didn't we hear about Eileen Dean, Tiparat Argatu, Anna Ovsyannikova, Phyllis Nelson?

    https://www.murdermap.co.uk/statistics/london-murders-2021-latest-total/
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
    I am wary of that accusation, especially as my wife and I are elderly pensioners, but we all need to recognise a responsible and monitored return to normal is in everyone’s interests and it has to be said, I do believe the population at large are on this page but not on this forum which seems to want to go back to normal and risk further variants and serious issues

    It is fair to say none of this will effect us directly as attendance at sporting events, restaurants and pubs are not on our agenda

    However, it does not stop us seeing the broader picture and I am not making selfish comments against our very precious young who include our grandchildren
    I am 34. Not a single person I know of (aged 15-80) is in favour of tightening restrictions and becoming a papers please type of society. They all have a decent understanding of how science works. They also enjoy the freedoms that this country usually stands for.

    I enjoy sports events, gigs, bars and restaurants. Perhaps let my generation, who have suffered a lot to save the older generation, take the lead on this. If for no other reason than we are the likely customers, and also those whose civil liberties will be infringed.


    The irony is that most of the young (20-35 years old) people I know eagerly downloaded the NHS covid tracker app and used it religiously whilst our parents didn't even try.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    We all know it isn't as simple as that. Just because the Tories might win Hartlepool doesn't mean they're going to win all of the seats below it on the "target list" and it also doesn't mean Labour won't win seats off the Tories.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
    And who are all (like 95-99% in many older age groups) vaccinated and desperate to get their second doses.

    So why do they feel they need to only go into a pub where everyone else has had a vaccination?

  • theProletheProle Posts: 948

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    But its blisteringly obvious to anyone with two braincells to rub together that by the time any such system has been trialed and made to work, Covid in the UK will be a thing of the past as we'll have already hit herd immunity by vaccination, and the disease will upretty much disappear. This is especially the case as we can't reasonably introduce such a system until everyone has been offered a jab anyway. Unless take up rates fall off a cliff in the next month for some mysterious reason, its simply unnecessary.

    On the basis that the above should be pretty obvious to any sane politician, why do they want Vax passports? It's pretty obvious that it's about even more state surveillance, and nothing to do with the disease. They tried to do the same with the track and trace app (before it became hilariously apparent it wouldn't work).
    These people are evil. I have no respect for any politician who votes for them Vax passports, and will vote against my (ultra marginal) Tory MP at the next GE if he votes in favour.

  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    So why isn’t this murder attracting the same opprobrium as that of Sarah Everard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56569863
    Genuine question as this seemed equally horrifying.

    Agree but (1) the victim is not a white middle class woman living in Zones 1-2 London and working in a media industry job and (2) the perpetrator is an illegal asylum seeker who should have been kicked out of the country but wasn't so both the authorities and the left are not too keen on having the story being publicised.
    Point 1 is the first half of the explanation, but the second is that Sarah Everard was abducted. Lorraine Cox appears to have been persuaded to go back to her killer's home. Both were cruel murders, but the former involved, from the point of view of the media and the wider public that consume it, a more sympathetic victim and far more sensational circumstances.

    If point 2 had anything to do with it then why would the majority of the press that is NOT particularly forgiving of failed asylum seekers being left at liberty to commit horrendous crimes not pick up the ball and run with this?

    Whilst we are fortunate not to live in an atypically brutal society, people are nonetheless murdered regularly, and killings therefore need to be exceptional to achieve notoriety. The depressing monotony of young men stabbed to death on the streets, and women bludgeoned to death by violent partners at home, goes mostly unnoticed because society is used to it. Like deaths from Winter flu or road traffic accidents, if it doesn't involve you personally, it's just background noise. One column at the bottom of page 14 of a newspaper. Statistics.
    I think the fact that Lorraine Cox went back might be part of the reason but only a small part. The bigger part I would argue is the victim is of a similar profile to many of the journalists that would be writing about her. Journalists tend to focus on what they recognise most. How many pictures did we have of North London residents clapping during the lockdowns?

    As for Point 2, simple question (and this one is for @stodge as well). Let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man. Do we think The Guardian would have similarly relegated the story (ps try finding it on their website)?
    It is right there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/01/man-convicted-of-murdering-and-dismembering-woman-in-exeter-lorraine-cox
    Not really on the front page was it?

    You had to go to the UK section, then you had to scroll down to near the bottom.

    When you read the story, also no mention of the fact that he was an illegal asylum seeker.

    Stop embarrassing yourself, from The Guardian article.

    Mangori insisted Cox had died from drink and drugs and said he did not call for help because a claim he made for asylum in the UK had been rejected and he was facing deportation.
    ASYLUM SEEKER murders woman. Page one.

    Anything else a lefty cover up.
    Funnily enough, neither you nor @TSE have answered the question before of let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man, that we wouldn't be hearing cries of systemic racism and something must be done.

    So let's rephrase your headline for the NYT, Guardian et al:

    WHITE PERSON kills person of colour: Page one

    Anything else, systemic racism silencing victims of oppression

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited April 2021
    Floater said:
    In all seriousness, whilst I sort of get the appeal of launching vicious attacks on political and ideological opponents as emotionally satisfying on a personal level, there isn't a person on here who won't have done it at some point and it can certainly be fun, I don't really see how she can think it is effective in any way.

    Sure, it will get cheers from those she wants it too and I very much doubt it is intended to persuade so she won't mind it not being effective in that sense, but her phrasing just comes across as hateful, petty and arrogant (How does she know that the Empire-shagger, whoever they are specifically or as a group, have not heard of any of those people or groups, particularly the well known ones like Diggers and Levellers?), and it just seems wasteful to sacrifice any possibility of holding the high ground in any discussion in any medium ever again, when people will be able to point at stuff like that and rightly suggest a) she has zero possibility of ever presenting something objectively, and b) she has zero possibility of objecting to opponents being nasty and rude.

    If you're just mouthing off on twitter I guess you wouldn't care, but if she has loftier ambitions as a commentator maybe aim higher than the gutter - she won't be lonely there, plenty of allies and enemies to trade shots with, but it just seems lazy.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    You do realise it is impossible to get to 100% vaccinated?

    We are basically at herd immunity now. No one around here is sticking to the rules, and R is below 1...
    I know I'm repeating myself, but in israel both the nightclubs and the borders are now open.

    And cases continue to fall.
    Frankly I think we need a GPT3 version of Robert to continually remind all posters about this.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    edited April 2021

    Another reason why the vaccine passport is a stupid idea — no one will use it. People might say they support the idea in the polling but look at the pathetic uptake of the NHS COVID tracking app.

    Nobody bothers with any of the checking in anymore because it's a right faff on.

    We were told not to use it at work, otherwise we would all be permanently isolating! Though outside ICU we were just wearing the same masks as anyone outside the hospital. Mrs Foxy reckons she caught it in the staff break room.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    It’s about the time of night we play Sandy Rentool bingo. I’ll start.

    Looking forward to vaccine passports keeping out the dickheads.

    Night all.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,093

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Depends on size of Tory revolt. No doubt the whip thumbscrews will be applied and they will possibly scrape home.

    But incredible. Just incredible to think that Johnson, the libertarian, churchill-worshipping, endlessly riffing-off-good-roast-beef -of-olde-england bloke from the pub, should be the PM who tries to take us down this totally unbritish dystopian road.

    This app will never be turned off again. Its uses will be expanded. Its scope extended. Its safeguards bent.

    The PB Tories will cheer on their side's creeping fascism because it targets those they do not like and they believe it will never be applied to them. The sharp lesson will come when the Tories finally lose office and all these methods of control are left for their political opponents to utilise. When that happens the PB Tories will squeal like pigs about lack of accountability and out-of-control politicians using this legislation.
    The amazing thing about this iteration of the Conservative Party is the extent to which they are convinced that the pendulum can never swing against them.

    OK, all governments do that to an extent, and there are some hideous examples in local councils, but this lot have taken it to another level. But you can bet that the problems for future generations of Conservatives in Opposition will be dumped on someone else.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    We all know it isn't as simple as that. Just because the Tories might win Hartlepool doesn't mean they're going to win all of the seats below it on the "target list" and it also doesn't mean Labour won't win seats off the Tories.
    That's true. What is your view @Gallowgate you are closer to where things are.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Decision Review System. 😊
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    You do realise it is impossible to get to 100% vaccinated?

    We are basically at herd immunity now. No one around here is sticking to the rules, and R is below 1...
    I know I'm repeating myself, but in israel both the nightclubs and the borders are now open.

    And cases continue to fall.
    Also the fact every man and his dog are breaking the COVID rules now and going round to see people in each other's houses, etc, and our cases and deaths continue to fall.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited April 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    Off topic -

    Daughter remarked to me that if all these new restrictions come in, include Covid ID cards, hospitality will become impossible - or only for the big chains - and unpleasant. She does not want to become the government's internal border guard. In consequence she is thinking hard about whether she wants to continue in this sector at all.

    One of this government's legacies will - if these stupid and illiberal policies are enacted - will be the destruction of our civil liberties and of much of the best of our hospitality sector - certainly the small individual venues.

    What is the point of getting vaccinated if we then have to be subject to all these controls - with the government determining what is or is not an essential venue, none of which seem to bear any relation to the risk they claim to want to protect us from.

    Restrictions are not, IMO, being lifted at all. They are simply being replaced by other forms of restrictions and controls. The illiberal authoritarians are winning.

    I hope I am proved wrong. I fear not.

    BTW thanks for your comment on my header. It was less about preparation for anotner pandemic and more about whether Britain really will take the opportunity provided by Covid to become a science superpower.

    I still have the 'its all a ruse to get a few more people vaccinated' crumb of comfort.

    But the other one is every sensible person that I talk to knows it is utterly unworkable.

    Just as track and trace in restaurants and caffs is.

    So it won't happen.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    Another reason why the vaccine passport is a stupid idea — no one will use it. People might say they support the idea in the polling but look at the pathetic uptake of the NHS COVID tracking app.

    Nobody bothers with any of the checking in anymore because it's a right faff on.

    I agree. Maybe it would have been better to keep the pubs closed for a few more weeks until a very high percentage of the population was vaccinated, ie. approaching herd immunity.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited April 2021
    MrEd said:

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    We all know it isn't as simple as that. Just because the Tories might win Hartlepool doesn't mean they're going to win all of the seats below it on the "target list" and it also doesn't mean Labour won't win seats off the Tories.
    That's true. What is your view @Gallowgate you are closer to where things are.
    Teesside is very different to Tyneside so I can't really offer anything valuable.

    If @RochdalePioneers who used to live on Teesside and was very involved in local politics thinks the Cons will win then I believe him.

    But I do know that Ben Houchen (Teesside's Mayor) is very popular. He's very popular throughout the North East generally to be honest, especially within business, engineering, and industry. I wish the "North of Tyne" mayor was half as good as him.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    We all know it isn't as simple as that. Just because the Tories might win Hartlepool doesn't mean they're going to win all of the seats below it on the "target list" and it also doesn't mean Labour won't win seats off the Tories.
    That's true. What is your view @Gallowgate you are closer to where things are.
    Teesside is very different to Tyneside so I can't really offer anything valuable.

    If @RochdalePioneers who used to live on Teesside and was very involved in local politics thinks the Cons will win then I believe him.
    Fair enough, I'm showing my complete lack of knowledge about the North East there :)
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
    I am wary of that accusation, especially as my wife and I are elderly pensioners, but we all need to recognise a responsible and monitored return to normal is in everyone’s interests and it has to be said, I do believe the population at large are on this page but not on this forum which seems to want to go back to normal and risk further variants and serious issues

    It is fair to say none of this will effect us directly as attendance at sporting events, restaurants and pubs are not on our agenda

    However, it does not stop us seeing the broader picture and I am not making selfish comments against our very precious young who include our grandchildren
    I am 34. Not a single person I know of (aged 15-80) is in favour of tightening restrictions and becoming a papers please type of society. They all have a decent understanding of how science works. They also enjoy the freedoms that this country usually stands for.

    I enjoy sports events, gigs, bars and restaurants. Perhaps let my generation, who have suffered a lot to save the older generation, take the lead on this. If for no other reason than we are the likely customers, and also those whose civil liberties will be infringed.


    I understand the cry for freedom but a sensible opening of the economy benefits everyone and it is not going to be for longer than necessary, though I do think vaccine passports will become compulsory for all foreign travel possibly for years
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    You do realise it is impossible to get to 100% vaccinated?

    We are basically at herd immunity now. No one around here is sticking to the rules, and R is below 1...
    I know I'm repeating myself, but in israel both the nightclubs and the borders are now open.

    And cases continue to fall.
    Also the fact every man and his dog are breaking the COVID rules now and going round to see people in each other's houses, etc, and our cases and deaths continue to fall.
    The Govt don't realise how behind the curve they are on this.

    They are relying on polling and focus groups where people signal their virtue.

    Not the cold hard reality of human behaviour.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    We all know it isn't as simple as that. Just because the Tories might win Hartlepool doesn't mean they're going to win all of the seats below it on the "target list" and it also doesn't mean Labour won't win seats off the Tories.
    Can't rather than won't maybe. Improbable they wouldn't, but it can happen - came very close this last time (at least on the Labour not winning a seat off them front).
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    So why isn’t this murder attracting the same opprobrium as that of Sarah Everard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56569863
    Genuine question as this seemed equally horrifying.

    Agree but (1) the victim is not a white middle class woman living in Zones 1-2 London and working in a media industry job and (2) the perpetrator is an illegal asylum seeker who should have been kicked out of the country but wasn't so both the authorities and the left are not too keen on having the story being publicised.
    Point 1 is the first half of the explanation, but the second is that Sarah Everard was abducted. Lorraine Cox appears to have been persuaded to go back to her killer's home. Both were cruel murders, but the former involved, from the point of view of the media and the wider public that consume it, a more sympathetic victim and far more sensational circumstances.

    If point 2 had anything to do with it then why would the majority of the press that is NOT particularly forgiving of failed asylum seekers being left at liberty to commit horrendous crimes not pick up the ball and run with this?

    Whilst we are fortunate not to live in an atypically brutal society, people are nonetheless murdered regularly, and killings therefore need to be exceptional to achieve notoriety. The depressing monotony of young men stabbed to death on the streets, and women bludgeoned to death by violent partners at home, goes mostly unnoticed because society is used to it. Like deaths from Winter flu or road traffic accidents, if it doesn't involve you personally, it's just background noise. One column at the bottom of page 14 of a newspaper. Statistics.
    I think the fact that Lorraine Cox went back might be part of the reason but only a small part. The bigger part I would argue is the victim is of a similar profile to many of the journalists that would be writing about her. Journalists tend to focus on what they recognise most. How many pictures did we have of North London residents clapping during the lockdowns?

    As for Point 2, simple question (and this one is for @stodge as well). Let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man. Do we think The Guardian would have similarly relegated the story (ps try finding it on their website)?
    It is right there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/01/man-convicted-of-murdering-and-dismembering-woman-in-exeter-lorraine-cox
    Not really on the front page was it?

    You had to go to the UK section, then you had to scroll down to near the bottom.

    When you read the story, also no mention of the fact that he was an illegal asylum seeker.

    Stop embarrassing yourself, from The Guardian article.

    Mangori insisted Cox had died from drink and drugs and said he did not call for help because a claim he made for asylum in the UK had been rejected and he was facing deportation.
    I'll do that if you also stop embarrassing yourself by pretending that the Lorraine Cox has been handled differently to Sarah Everard.
    I haven't said that, I've said it is different because the alleged perpetrator is a copper.

    You keep on saying stuff that turns out to be bollocks.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 14,772

    Foxy said:

    Might the Sarah Everard case have got extra attention because she was in London?

    I think what annoys me is the lack of the outrage that we saw for the everard case. It’s as if her death is less heinous in some way. Not just the press and media, but all the howling Twitter items and commentators don’t seem to care about this case. Like the circus has moved on. It’s very sad.
    2 women get murdered each week or so. Jess Phillips reads their names in Parliament each year on Internationl Women's Day.

    Not many make more than a paragraph in the local paper.
    I guess I’m just struck by my perceived similarity of the cases, and the disparity of the ‘popular’ response. Saddened really, as to me it diminishes the effect of what has gone before.
    I would like to see much more media attention on these cases generally. As it is, they only tend to get reported when there is something particularly unusual, which then gives people a misleading sense of what is normal. More reporting of the normal cases would help people see what the common risk factors were.

    I think the Sarah Everard case received more attention because at first it was missing person in London during lockdown.

    There seem to be lots of strange aspects to the Lorraine Cox murder. You can find old news stories from local news websites last year where it wasn't certain that she was in trouble, to the extent that it was with Sarah Everard, where she went missing in a fairly narrowly defined bit of time. See, for example, https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/missing-woman-exeter-moved-plymouth-4490442

    And then it turns out that police originally charged a different person for the murder: https://www.whatsoninplymouth.com/exeter-street-closed-due-to-lorraine-cox-murder-investigation-reopens/
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
    And who are all (like 95-99% in many older age groups) vaccinated and desperate to get their second doses.

    So why do they feel they need to only go into a pub where everyone else has had a vaccination?

    This seems to be the inherent paradox at the heart of what is an entirely illogical plan. Regardless of the ethical arguments, the entire policy appears to be crafted from a hopper of diamond crusted Catch-22s.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926
    kle4 said:

    Turns out there are 22 Republics within Russia. I'd not recommending listing them all be a pub quiz question.


    22? There are 83 Federal Subjects in total!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,093

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    We all know it isn't as simple as that. Just because the Tories might win Hartlepool doesn't mean they're going to win all of the seats below it on the "target list" and it also doesn't mean Labour won't win seats off the Tories.
    Without la Tice's intervention last December, Hartlepool would presumably have fallen to Conservatives then, and nobody would have really batted an eyelid.

    It's what makes the by-election tricky to predict.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    theProle said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    But its blisteringly obvious to anyone with two braincells to rub together that by the time any such system has been trialed and made to work, Covid in the UK will be a thing of the past as we'll have already hit herd immunity by vaccination, and the disease will upretty much disappear. This is especially the case as we can't reasonably introduce such a system until everyone has been offered a jab anyway. Unless take up rates fall off a cliff in the next month for some mysterious reason, its simply unnecessary.

    On the basis that the above should be pretty obvious to any sane politician, why do they want Vax passports? It's pretty obvious that it's about even more state surveillance, and nothing to do with the disease. They tried to do the same with the track and trace app (before it became hilariously apparent it wouldn't work).
    These people are evil. I have no respect for any politician who votes for them Vax passports, and will vote against my (ultra marginal) Tory MP at the next GE if he votes in favour.

    There is always a policy-wonk in the Home Office who is available 24/7, ready to slip proposals for some form of national ID preferable with modern stuff like a database and a tracking app under the nose of the Home Sec. should a suitable situation arise.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
    I am wary of that accusation, especially as my wife and I are elderly pensioners, but we all need to recognise a responsible and monitored return to normal is in everyone’s interests and it has to be said, I do believe the population at large are on this page but not on this forum which seems to want to go back to normal and risk further variants and serious issues

    It is fair to say none of this will effect us directly as attendance at sporting events, restaurants and pubs are not on our agenda

    However, it does not stop us seeing the broader picture and I am not making selfish comments against our very precious young who include our grandchildren
    I am 34. Not a single person I know of (aged 15-80) is in favour of tightening restrictions and becoming a papers please type of society. They all have a decent understanding of how science works. They also enjoy the freedoms that this country usually stands for.

    I enjoy sports events, gigs, bars and restaurants. Perhaps let my generation, who have suffered a lot to save the older generation, take the lead on this. If for no other reason than we are the likely customers, and also those whose civil liberties will be infringed.


    I understand the cry for freedom but a sensible opening of the economy benefits everyone and it is not going to be for longer than necessary, though I do think vaccine passports will become compulsory for all foreign travel possibly for years
    Unless this is launched tomorrow (here is a clue, it isn't going to be), it will already be too late to be of any significance. We are basically at herd immunity NOW.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Cyclefree said:

    BTW thanks for your comment on my header. It was less about preparation for anotner pandemic and more about whether Britain really will take the opportunity provided by Covid to become a science superpower.

    In the past, the biggest obstacle to "Science Super-powerdom" has been our govts and Civil Servants' penny pinching and short-sightedness. There was also a factor in the past that you had to be the "right sort" of person but hopefully that particular snobbishness is largely gone.

    From John Harrison onwards, scientists and engineers have struggled in the UK. Those who have succeeded have been in spite of the system, not because of it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Charles said:

    kle4 said:

    Turns out there are 22 Republics within Russia. I'd not recommending listing them all be a pub quiz question.

    The state also includes the 'Jewish Autonomous Oblast' (though Jews now make up less than 1% of the population). Thanks wiki!

    This is the flag of the Oblast

    They look very lgbt friendly...
    Wiki says it had to be checked against the gay propaganda law and was cleared thanks to the background and slightly different colours. Phew, close call.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    So why isn’t this murder attracting the same opprobrium as that of Sarah Everard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56569863
    Genuine question as this seemed equally horrifying.

    Agree but (1) the victim is not a white middle class woman living in Zones 1-2 London and working in a media industry job and (2) the perpetrator is an illegal asylum seeker who should have been kicked out of the country but wasn't so both the authorities and the left are not too keen on having the story being publicised.
    Point 1 is the first half of the explanation, but the second is that Sarah Everard was abducted. Lorraine Cox appears to have been persuaded to go back to her killer's home. Both were cruel murders, but the former involved, from the point of view of the media and the wider public that consume it, a more sympathetic victim and far more sensational circumstances.

    If point 2 had anything to do with it then why would the majority of the press that is NOT particularly forgiving of failed asylum seekers being left at liberty to commit horrendous crimes not pick up the ball and run with this?

    Whilst we are fortunate not to live in an atypically brutal society, people are nonetheless murdered regularly, and killings therefore need to be exceptional to achieve notoriety. The depressing monotony of young men stabbed to death on the streets, and women bludgeoned to death by violent partners at home, goes mostly unnoticed because society is used to it. Like deaths from Winter flu or road traffic accidents, if it doesn't involve you personally, it's just background noise. One column at the bottom of page 14 of a newspaper. Statistics.
    I think the fact that Lorraine Cox went back might be part of the reason but only a small part. The bigger part I would argue is the victim is of a similar profile to many of the journalists that would be writing about her. Journalists tend to focus on what they recognise most. How many pictures did we have of North London residents clapping during the lockdowns?

    As for Point 2, simple question (and this one is for @stodge as well). Let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man. Do we think The Guardian would have similarly relegated the story (ps try finding it on their website)?
    It is right there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/01/man-convicted-of-murdering-and-dismembering-woman-in-exeter-lorraine-cox
    Not really on the front page was it?

    You had to go to the UK section, then you had to scroll down to near the bottom.

    When you read the story, also no mention of the fact that he was an illegal asylum seeker.

    Stop embarrassing yourself, from The Guardian article.

    Mangori insisted Cox had died from drink and drugs and said he did not call for help because a claim he made for asylum in the UK had been rejected and he was facing deportation.
    I'll do that if you also stop embarrassing yourself by pretending that the Lorraine Cox has been handled differently to Sarah Everard.
    I haven't said that, I've said it is different because the alleged perpetrator is a copper.

    You keep on saying stuff that turns out to be bollocks.
    As @kle4 has already pointed out, the Sarah Everard case was already dominating headlines before it was known the alleged perpetrator was a copper. It is a very easy thing to go back and fact check.

    So, may I humbly suggest, you stop sprouting bollocks yourself in trying to suggest that the only reason why the Sarah Everard got attention was because of the Police Officer factor. It is not borne out by the evidence.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited April 2021

    kle4 said:

    Turns out there are 22 Republics within Russia. I'd not recommending listing them all be a pub quiz question.


    22? There are 83 Federal Subjects in total!
    Tut tut. I said Republics, not Federal Subjects, 0 points for you.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_Russia

    Edit: But well done for, I see on checking, not counting the Crimean ones in the total.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    The pandemic is almost over in the UK, and you solve the problem of large-scale importation from abroad with travel restrictions. Small-scale importation (e.g. through truck drivers) isn't going to be prevented by these mechanisms and will only cause serious harm if a variant that completely escapes the vaccines gets into the country. In that (AIUI very unlikely) scenario we'll all end up back in lockdown before very long and vaccine passports will be of no useful effect in stopping that.

    A sophisticated system of vaccine passports obviously isn't going to be in place for the re-opening on April 12th, and even if it can somehow be got up and running by May 17th the virus will be heavily suppressed by that point, the Covid wards nearly empty, deaths almost down to nothing, and quite likely all the over 40s will have been vaccinated to boot. The only use it has under those circumstances is to impose divisive discrimination upon the young that will, in any event, do almost nothing to protect the middle aged or elderly.

    We don't need these mechanisms to re-open the economy safely. The unlocking timetable is cautious in the extreme as it is: any notion that it's somehow reckless, when we are waiting five full weeks between each of these little baby steps (with SAGE nervously poring over every fresh scrap of data in the meantime, just in case they discover justification for slowing down even more,) is laughable. Moreover, by the time we get to mid-May, it's going to be virtually as safe as it is ever going to get for all the most vulnerable groups: everyone over 50 bar a handful of anti-vaxxers will have long since been jabbed by that point, and the over 70s and shielders will have been done twice.

    Vaccine passports are a pointless imposition which will do nothing but impose costly burdens on businesses, in the form of the extra effort and expense needed to police their proper usage. The UK hospitality sector doesn't want vaccine passports, any more than the Spanish tourism sector wants state-enforced masking on beaches. They are a nuisance and deleterious to trade. They've nothing to do with economic renewal and everything to do with authoritarianism and the expansion of state power.
    You are in a much better place about all this than a few weeks ago. Happy for you.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    The pandemic is almost over in the UK, and you solve the problem of large-scale importation from abroad with travel restrictions. Small-scale importation (e.g. through truck drivers) isn't going to be prevented by these mechanisms and will only cause serious harm if a variant that completely escapes the vaccines gets into the country. In that (AIUI very unlikely) scenario we'll all end up back in lockdown before very long and vaccine passports will be of no useful effect in stopping that.

    A sophisticated system of vaccine passports obviously isn't going to be in place for the re-opening on April 12th, and even if it can somehow be got up and running by May 17th the virus will be heavily suppressed by that point, the Covid wards nearly empty, deaths almost down to nothing, and quite likely all the over 40s will have been vaccinated to boot. The only use it has under those circumstances is to impose divisive discrimination upon the young that will, in any event, do almost nothing to protect the middle aged or elderly.

    We don't need these mechanisms to re-open the economy safely. The unlocking timetable is cautious in the extreme as it is: any notion that it's somehow reckless, when we are waiting five full weeks between each of these little baby steps (with SAGE nervously poring over every fresh scrap of data in the meantime, just in case they discover justification for slowing down even more,) is laughable. Moreover, by the time we get to mid-May, it's going to be virtually as safe as it is ever going to get for all the most vulnerable groups: everyone over 50 bar a handful of anti-vaxxers will have long since been jabbed by that point, and the over 70s and shielders will have been done twice.

    Vaccine passports are a pointless imposition which will do nothing but impose costly burdens on businesses, in the form of the extra effort and expense needed to police their proper usage. The UK hospitality sector doesn't want vaccine passports, any more than the Spanish tourism sector wants state-enforced masking on beaches. They are a nuisance and deleterious to trade. They've nothing to do with economic renewal and everything to do with authoritarianism and the expansion of state power.
    Well said.

    In addition to uproar from the backbenches, am firmly expecting some significant donor pressure on the Tory party on this matter, too.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926
    Andy_JS said:

    Decision Review System. 😊
    image

    :)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,597

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    You have a very one dimensional view on politics don't you?

    Hartlepool lost for Labour, perhaps Chingford and Woodford Green won by Labour.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    So why isn’t this murder attracting the same opprobrium as that of Sarah Everard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56569863
    Genuine question as this seemed equally horrifying.

    Agree but (1) the victim is not a white middle class woman living in Zones 1-2 London and working in a media industry job and (2) the perpetrator is an illegal asylum seeker who should have been kicked out of the country but wasn't so both the authorities and the left are not too keen on having the story being publicised.
    Point 1 is the first half of the explanation, but the second is that Sarah Everard was abducted. Lorraine Cox appears to have been persuaded to go back to her killer's home. Both were cruel murders, but the former involved, from the point of view of the media and the wider public that consume it, a more sympathetic victim and far more sensational circumstances.

    If point 2 had anything to do with it then why would the majority of the press that is NOT particularly forgiving of failed asylum seekers being left at liberty to commit horrendous crimes not pick up the ball and run with this?

    Whilst we are fortunate not to live in an atypically brutal society, people are nonetheless murdered regularly, and killings therefore need to be exceptional to achieve notoriety. The depressing monotony of young men stabbed to death on the streets, and women bludgeoned to death by violent partners at home, goes mostly unnoticed because society is used to it. Like deaths from Winter flu or road traffic accidents, if it doesn't involve you personally, it's just background noise. One column at the bottom of page 14 of a newspaper. Statistics.
    I think the fact that Lorraine Cox went back might be part of the reason but only a small part. The bigger part I would argue is the victim is of a similar profile to many of the journalists that would be writing about her. Journalists tend to focus on what they recognise most. How many pictures did we have of North London residents clapping during the lockdowns?

    As for Point 2, simple question (and this one is for @stodge as well). Let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man. Do we think The Guardian would have similarly relegated the story (ps try finding it on their website)?
    It is right there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/01/man-convicted-of-murdering-and-dismembering-woman-in-exeter-lorraine-cox
    Not really on the front page was it?

    You had to go to the UK section, then you had to scroll down to near the bottom.

    When you read the story, also no mention of the fact that he was an illegal asylum seeker.

    Stop embarrassing yourself, from The Guardian article.

    Mangori insisted Cox had died from drink and drugs and said he did not call for help because a claim he made for asylum in the UK had been rejected and he was facing deportation.
    I'll do that if you also stop embarrassing yourself by pretending that the Lorraine Cox has been handled differently to Sarah Everard.
    I haven't said that, I've said it is different because the alleged perpetrator is a copper.

    You keep on saying stuff that turns out to be bollocks.
    As @kle4 has already pointed out, the Sarah Everard case was already dominating headlines before it was known the alleged perpetrator was a copper. It is a very easy thing to go back and fact check.

    So, may I humbly suggest, you stop sprouting bollocks yourself in trying to suggest that the only reason why the Sarah Everard got attention was because of the Police Officer factor. It is not borne out by the evidence.
    It's because she was young and beautiful and lots of people writing the stories saw themselves in her.

    Additionally this was one of those cases, as my gf explained it to me, where she did everything right. She wore high visibility clothes, she made the phonecall to her bf, she used a popular and well lit path. She still ended up dead. There's inevitably going to be a lot more sympathy for her than for someone who decides to get drunk with a failed asylum seeker, right or wrong it's just simple fact.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,620
    Andy_JS said:

    Another reason why the vaccine passport is a stupid idea — no one will use it. People might say they support the idea in the polling but look at the pathetic uptake of the NHS COVID tracking app.

    Nobody bothers with any of the checking in anymore because it's a right faff on.

    ...Maybe it would have been better to keep the pubs closed for a few more weeks...
    Nurse!
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    What I find particularly frustrating is the only agitation I find for this illiberal nonsense is from the older generation who have already asked too much of the younger generation. For a year.
    I am wary of that accusation, especially as my wife and I are elderly pensioners, but we all need to recognise a responsible and monitored return to normal is in everyone’s interests and it has to be said, I do believe the population at large are on this page but not on this forum which seems to want to go back to normal and risk further variants and serious issues

    It is fair to say none of this will effect us directly as attendance at sporting events, restaurants and pubs are not on our agenda

    However, it does not stop us seeing the broader picture and I am not making selfish comments against our very precious young who include our grandchildren
    I am 34. Not a single person I know of (aged 15-80) is in favour of tightening restrictions and becoming a papers please type of society. They all have a decent understanding of how science works. They also enjoy the freedoms that this country usually stands for.

    I enjoy sports events, gigs, bars and restaurants. Perhaps let my generation, who have suffered a lot to save the older generation, take the lead on this. If for no other reason than we are the likely customers, and also those whose civil liberties will be infringed.


    I understand the cry for freedom but a sensible opening of the economy benefits everyone and it is not going to be for longer than necessary, though I do think vaccine passports will become compulsory for all foreign travel possibly for years
    Unless this is launched tomorrow (here is a clue, it isn't going to be), it will already be too late to be of any significance. We are basically at herd immunity NOW.
    The FA Cup semi finals are on the 17th and 18th April so if they are to be piloted they need to be in place very soon
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    You have a very one dimensional view on politics don't you?

    Hartlepool lost for Labour, perhaps Chingford and Woodford Green won by Labour.
    Given that is target 13 for Labour and a semi-metropolitan seat, they'd almost certainly be going backwards nationally if they managed that swap.

  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Depends on size of Tory revolt. No doubt the whip thumbscrews will be applied and they will possibly scrape home.

    But incredible. Just incredible to think that Johnson, the libertarian, churchill-worshipping, endlessly riffing-off-good-roast-beef -of-olde-england bloke from the pub, should be the PM who tries to take us down this totally unbritish dystopian road.

    This app will never be turned off again. Its uses will be expanded. Its scope extended. Its safeguards bent.

    Just as an example of how awful the app was last time.

    I was one update behind the times. And I couldn't download it.

    That happened to me. I notified the people concerned and they said it must be my phone.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    The pandemic is almost over in the UK, and you solve the problem of large-scale importation from abroad with travel restrictions. Small-scale importation (e.g. through truck drivers) isn't going to be prevented by these mechanisms and will only cause serious harm if a variant that completely escapes the vaccines gets into the country. In that (AIUI very unlikely) scenario we'll all end up back in lockdown before very long and vaccine passports will be of no useful effect in stopping that.

    A sophisticated system of vaccine passports obviously isn't going to be in place for the re-opening on April 12th, and even if it can somehow be got up and running by May 17th the virus will be heavily suppressed by that point, the Covid wards nearly empty, deaths almost down to nothing, and quite likely all the over 40s will have been vaccinated to boot. The only use it has under those circumstances is to impose divisive discrimination upon the young that will, in any event, do almost nothing to protect the middle aged or elderly.

    We don't need these mechanisms to re-open the economy safely. The unlocking timetable is cautious in the extreme as it is: any notion that it's somehow reckless, when we are waiting five full weeks between each of these little baby steps (with SAGE nervously poring over every fresh scrap of data in the meantime, just in case they discover justification for slowing down even more,) is laughable. Moreover, by the time we get to mid-May, it's going to be virtually as safe as it is ever going to get for all the most vulnerable groups: everyone over 50 bar a handful of anti-vaxxers will have long since been jabbed by that point, and the over 70s and shielders will have been done twice.

    Vaccine passports are a pointless imposition which will do nothing but impose costly burdens on businesses, in the form of the extra effort and expense needed to police their proper usage. The UK hospitality sector doesn't want vaccine passports, any more than the Spanish tourism sector wants state-enforced masking on beaches. They are a nuisance and deleterious to trade. They've nothing to do with economic renewal and everything to do with authoritarianism and the expansion of state power.
    As with most measures there are trade offs. I just don't see how in the situation that we are now in, that the costs of these proposals are worth the gains, which seem rather nebulous.

    Extreme measures for extreme times. Are we really going to be in extreme times for when these measures will come in, sufficient to justify them?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    ydoethur said:

    MrEd said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    As expected Alba is a damp squib.
    I predicted as much.

    It is REALLY hard to get over 5% as a new party, especially when your leader is a known (but legally unblemished) sex pest.

    What is disappointing from a Unionist perspective is no obvious “bounce” for Anas Sarwar and little damage to the SNP. And the Greens appear completely unscathed.

    No, it's gravy for unionists. The Nationalist cause is schismatized, and seems bitterly divided, and Boris can dismiss the new Holyrood as a gamed system

    If Alba do this badly, Salmond has done terrible damage to indy. We shall see
    The way this poll in the header looks, the embarrassing and degrading mess over the last months has not dampened enthusiasm for an SNP majority. The SNP are through the worst too and are likely to get stronger.
    Schisms are bad. I know you want the SNP to win so Scotland goes indy to punish us for voting Brexit, but, schisms are bad. They generally hinder the cause

    It would be surprising, but not impossible, if this were an exception, but so far it looks like proving the rule

    I readily admit that if Alba gets 15 seats on the List (and the SNP gets zillions of constituency seats) then that will boost the indy cause. Boris will still refuse a vote, but there is then a chance that Scotland will surge into passive mass resistance and Mahatama Gandhi stylee bullshit.

    And then, after five years, the YES vote could be consistently over 60% and Britain is done for. Certainly possible
    It was only Attlee's Labour Party who granted Gandhi Indian independence, Churchill's Tory led government ignored him on the whole
    Churchill’s Tory led government that locked him in prison for two years?
    The point being they certainly did not concede him anything, it was only Attlee's Labour Party winning the 1945 election that led to Indian independence in 1947
    It was an awful lot more complicated than that. True. Churchill refused to consider anything while the war was on, but between American support for decolonisation, the concession of a stated goal of Dominion status in 1935, the weak economic position of Britain, unrest elsewhere spreading the army very thin and the situation in India itself, there was no realistic way that India would have remained a British colony much beyond 1947 even if the ghosts of F E Smith and Clive had been leading the government.

    It might have been postponed to 1949-50, but realistically not later. The French couldn’t even hold Vietnam beyond 1954 and they wasted an awful lot of men, time and effort trying.

    Of course, if it had been delayed to 1949 there might have been no partition as the death of Jinnah would have removed a key obstacle. But don’t delude yourself* that Churchill would somehow have clung on for a significant length of time more than Attlee did.

    * Admittedly this would be a break with a fine PB traidition.
    Britain would probably have been able to hold on in some form or another for quite a long time if WW2 had not broken out. The Princely States would have backed them (generally) and the composition of the Indian Army pre-WW2 meant they had a reliable force to suppress disorder.
    And Churchill would never have been PM if WWII had not broken out, the succession remaining in the hands of the Chamberlain group who wrote the Government of India Act, so the point is moot.
    That is true for this particular discussion but there is the wider question of how long the British would have stayed on in India if WW2 had not broken out. Commitment to India was strong amongst a lot of elements and there was also the realisation of how important Indian Army firepower would be in a military conflict. It is hard to imagine the UK Government would have let India follow the path of the Irish Free State.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    MrEd said:

    kinabalu said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    So why isn’t this murder attracting the same opprobrium as that of Sarah Everard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56569863
    Genuine question as this seemed equally horrifying.

    Agree but (1) the victim is not a white middle class woman living in Zones 1-2 London and working in a media industry job and (2) the perpetrator is an illegal asylum seeker who should have been kicked out of the country but wasn't so both the authorities and the left are not too keen on having the story being publicised.
    Point 1 is the first half of the explanation, but the second is that Sarah Everard was abducted. Lorraine Cox appears to have been persuaded to go back to her killer's home. Both were cruel murders, but the former involved, from the point of view of the media and the wider public that consume it, a more sympathetic victim and far more sensational circumstances.

    If point 2 had anything to do with it then why would the majority of the press that is NOT particularly forgiving of failed asylum seekers being left at liberty to commit horrendous crimes not pick up the ball and run with this?

    Whilst we are fortunate not to live in an atypically brutal society, people are nonetheless murdered regularly, and killings therefore need to be exceptional to achieve notoriety. The depressing monotony of young men stabbed to death on the streets, and women bludgeoned to death by violent partners at home, goes mostly unnoticed because society is used to it. Like deaths from Winter flu or road traffic accidents, if it doesn't involve you personally, it's just background noise. One column at the bottom of page 14 of a newspaper. Statistics.
    I think the fact that Lorraine Cox went back might be part of the reason but only a small part. The bigger part I would argue is the victim is of a similar profile to many of the journalists that would be writing about her. Journalists tend to focus on what they recognise most. How many pictures did we have of North London residents clapping during the lockdowns?

    As for Point 2, simple question (and this one is for @stodge as well). Let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man. Do we think The Guardian would have similarly relegated the story (ps try finding it on their website)?
    It is right there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/01/man-convicted-of-murdering-and-dismembering-woman-in-exeter-lorraine-cox
    Not really on the front page was it?

    You had to go to the UK section, then you had to scroll down to near the bottom.

    When you read the story, also no mention of the fact that he was an illegal asylum seeker.

    Stop embarrassing yourself, from The Guardian article.

    Mangori insisted Cox had died from drink and drugs and said he did not call for help because a claim he made for asylum in the UK had been rejected and he was facing deportation.
    ASYLUM SEEKER murders woman. Page one.

    Anything else a lefty cover up.
    Funnily enough, neither you nor @TSE have answered the question before of let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man, that we wouldn't be hearing cries of systemic racism and something must be done.

    So let's rephrase your headline for the NYT, Guardian et al:

    WHITE PERSON kills person of colour: Page one

    Anything else, systemic racism silencing victims of oppression

    You don't seem to understand how modern internet news works.

    Media companies promote stories that get the most engagement, because that's what maximizes profits. It's why the Mail Online has the sidebar of shame and why Fox News is a huge success.

    If a story isn't being run with the prominence you'd like, it's because it's not generating as much advertising revenue as a story about a pig who can whistle Dixie or the latest EU vaccine debacle.

    Now, partly that will be because of outrage fatigue. People just read about one gruesome murder, and they are satiated.

    But what it isn't, is a big conspiracy by lefty publications to hide crimes by asylum seekers. Because even those lefty publications (with the exception of the BBC) are run by nasty rapacious capitalists, and if the story generated engagement it would be promoted.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286

    Andy_JS said:

    Another reason why the vaccine passport is a stupid idea — no one will use it. People might say they support the idea in the polling but look at the pathetic uptake of the NHS COVID tracking app.

    Nobody bothers with any of the checking in anymore because it's a right faff on.

    ...Maybe it would have been better to keep the pubs closed for a few more weeks...
    Nurse!
    If you have two rubbish options you have to choose the least worst one. Doesn't mean you like either of them.
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    So why isn’t this murder attracting the same opprobrium as that of Sarah Everard?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-56569863
    Genuine question as this seemed equally horrifying.

    Agree but (1) the victim is not a white middle class woman living in Zones 1-2 London and working in a media industry job and (2) the perpetrator is an illegal asylum seeker who should have been kicked out of the country but wasn't so both the authorities and the left are not too keen on having the story being publicised.
    Point 1 is the first half of the explanation, but the second is that Sarah Everard was abducted. Lorraine Cox appears to have been persuaded to go back to her killer's home. Both were cruel murders, but the former involved, from the point of view of the media and the wider public that consume it, a more sympathetic victim and far more sensational circumstances.

    If point 2 had anything to do with it then why would the majority of the press that is NOT particularly forgiving of failed asylum seekers being left at liberty to commit horrendous crimes not pick up the ball and run with this?

    Whilst we are fortunate not to live in an atypically brutal society, people are nonetheless murdered regularly, and killings therefore need to be exceptional to achieve notoriety. The depressing monotony of young men stabbed to death on the streets, and women bludgeoned to death by violent partners at home, goes mostly unnoticed because society is used to it. Like deaths from Winter flu or road traffic accidents, if it doesn't involve you personally, it's just background noise. One column at the bottom of page 14 of a newspaper. Statistics.
    I think the fact that Lorraine Cox went back might be part of the reason but only a small part. The bigger part I would argue is the victim is of a similar profile to many of the journalists that would be writing about her. Journalists tend to focus on what they recognise most. How many pictures did we have of North London residents clapping during the lockdowns?

    As for Point 2, simple question (and this one is for @stodge as well). Let's say this was a Kurdish woman killed by a white man. Do we think The Guardian would have similarly relegated the story (ps try finding it on their website)?
    It is right there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/apr/01/man-convicted-of-murdering-and-dismembering-woman-in-exeter-lorraine-cox
    Not really on the front page was it?

    You had to go to the UK section, then you had to scroll down to near the bottom.

    When you read the story, also no mention of the fact that he was an illegal asylum seeker.

    Stop embarrassing yourself, from The Guardian article.

    Mangori insisted Cox had died from drink and drugs and said he did not call for help because a claim he made for asylum in the UK had been rejected and he was facing deportation.
    I'll do that if you also stop embarrassing yourself by pretending that the Lorraine Cox has been handled differently to Sarah Everard.
    I haven't said that, I've said it is different because the alleged perpetrator is a copper.

    You keep on saying stuff that turns out to be bollocks.
    As @kle4 has already pointed out, the Sarah Everard case was already dominating headlines before it was known the alleged perpetrator was a copper. It is a very easy thing to go back and fact check.

    So, may I humbly suggest, you stop sprouting bollocks yourself in trying to suggest that the only reason why the Sarah Everard got attention was because of the Police Officer factor. It is not borne out by the evidence.
    Because she was missing, there were appeals to find her.

    As there have been for Richard Okorogheye in recent days.

    As far I am aware there were plenty of appeals for Ms Cox at the time, not my fault if people like you can't remember it.

    https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/missing-woman-exeter-moved-plymouth-4490442
  • Bunch of old people here (some of whom who seem to spend their lives posting) who have very little going on in their lives, have put young people on hold for a year, now want to reward themselves with a passport to do anything whilst young people get locked inside more.

    Hope the young will come out to vote next time and make their feelings known - I doubt it will happen of course but it should.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    You do realise it is impossible to get to 100% vaccinated?

    We are basically at herd immunity now. No one around here is sticking to the rules, and R is below 1...
    I know I'm repeating myself, but in israel both the nightclubs and the borders are now open.

    And cases continue to fall.
    Also the fact every man and his dog are breaking the COVID rules now and going round to see people in each other's houses, etc, and our cases and deaths continue to fall.
    The Govt don't realise how behind the curve they are on this.

    They are relying on polling and focus groups where people signal their virtue.

    Not the cold hard reality of human behaviour.
    Everyone breaking the rules might be both of your experience. It is not mine. Therefore let’s work off the polling and other numbers shall we?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    MaxPB said:

    Another thing that hasn't been addressed at all is that on the one hand the government is saying they want a domestic vaccine passport system but has said nothing about insisting on vaccinations to enter the country. Once again the government is putting restrictions on our lives and doing nothing about incoming travellers. The whole thing stinks and the whole lot deserve to be sacked over the failure to close the border and now not insisting on vaccine status to enter.

    Why does it 'stink'? Surely their oligarch buddies/Davos set and the like should be vaccinated? Why do you think they don't care about visitors being vaccinated?

    This seems to be about pressuring the sceptics into getting the vaccine. Not much you can do about foreigners.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    AnneJGP said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Depends on size of Tory revolt. No doubt the whip thumbscrews will be applied and they will possibly scrape home.

    But incredible. Just incredible to think that Johnson, the libertarian, churchill-worshipping, endlessly riffing-off-good-roast-beef -of-olde-england bloke from the pub, should be the PM who tries to take us down this totally unbritish dystopian road.

    This app will never be turned off again. Its uses will be expanded. Its scope extended. Its safeguards bent.

    Just as an example of how awful the app was last time.

    I was one update behind the times. And I couldn't download it.

    That happened to me. I notified the people concerned and they said it must be my phone.
    The consequence?

    I didn't download the app.

    The consequence of that? Nothing.

    Because enforcement is unworkable.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited April 2021

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    You have a very one dimensional view on politics don't you?

    Hartlepool lost for Labour, perhaps Chingford and Woodford Green won by Labour.
    Any election in which Labour loses Hartlepool is indeed going to be very one-dimensional for them - mainly because they'll be squashed as flat as a pancake...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,597
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Labour hold in Hartlepool

    Just to highlight how weak that is.

    Hartlepool is the 44th target seat for the Tories at the next election.

    So if they manage to hold it, they're saying, 'ok, we'll still be above 150 seats'.

    What a demise for a once great party.
    What a bizarre response, wasn't aware there were any other by-elections going on?
    It's not bizarre at all: to put it another way, if the Tories were to take all of their targets at the next election up to and including Hartlepool, they'd have a majority of 168 (!)
    You have a very one dimensional view on politics don't you?

    Hartlepool lost for Labour, perhaps Chingford and Woodford Green won by Labour.
    Given that is target 13 for Labour and a semi-metropolitan seat, they'd almost certainly be going backwards nationally if they managed that swap.

    I drew a random constituency out of the ether. I wasn't expecting it to be thrust down my throat. There is nothing to say Labour won't lose the by election and retake it at the GE.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Covid passport trials to begin at UK events this month

    FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part in pilot schemes

    Covid passports are set to be trialled at events in Britain within weeks, The Telegraph can reveal, as the Government pushes ahead with the idea despite a growing rebellion by MPs.

    New details of around a dozen pilot schemes for safely opening large events will be announced in the coming days, with plans to trial Covid certification checks. The FA Cup final, an FA Cup semi-final, the League Cup final and the World Snooker Championship are taking part, with the Brit Awards also in discussions.

    People going to the events will be asked to take a Covid test to gain entry and another after attendance so that any spreading of the virus can be monitored. Government scientists are closely involved in designing the pilots and will watch everything from crowd flows to ventilation systems to learn lessons about running large events.

    Multiple Government sources involved in the planning told The Telegraph it is hoped that Covid passports – producing a certificate showing your virus status – will feature in some pilots.

    The events will run throughout April and May, and ministers want enough conclusions to be drawn for the reopening of large events to be able to happen from as early as mid-June.

    While events in April will require a negative Covid test to gain entry, it is hoped some of the pilots in May can trial an updated NHS app which shows whether someone has had a jab, negative test or antibodies – what has been described a Covid passport.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/04/01/exclusivecovid-passport-trials-begin-uk-events-month/

    I think on this issue Johnson is right and both Starmer and all the posters here on PB are wrong. What's the problem with carrying ID? I had to pull out my driving licence to claim a pre ordered packet of hinges from Screwfix today.

    I also have a Chinese mobile phone so President Xi, Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos all know where I am, so I don't suppose a vaccine passport will make much difference.
    First rule of politics.

    Learn how to count.

    Boris doesn't have the votes for this.
    I think you will find he has even if it goes to a vote
    Nope. I expect a Tory rebellion of around 70 on this.
    This is a pilot to open the economy and no, I do not believe this will not get through, even if it is voted on
    Herd immunity solves the problem, not kowtowing to fearties (who almost certainly won't be there anyway, because frit).
    We are some way off herd immunity and the public are highly risk averse

    This policy will be very popular as people see it as the start of a way back to more normal times
    This is ridiculous @Big_G_NorthWales . You still haven't explained what the benefit of these vaccine passports are. All you say is "they are coming". I know they are coming but I asked what the benefit of them is.

    The vaccine is the way back to normal times. Not this distraction.
    I agree once we are 100% vaccinated and the pandemic is largely under control in Europe and elsewhere

    However, we need to start up the economy long before then in a way that has public support and is not seen as reckless

    You do realise it is impossible to get to 100% vaccinated?

    We are basically at herd immunity now. No one around here is sticking to the rules, and R is below 1...
    I know I'm repeating myself, but in israel both the nightclubs and the borders are now open.

    And cases continue to fall.
    Also the fact every man and his dog are breaking the COVID rules now and going round to see people in each other's houses, etc, and our cases and deaths continue to fall.
    The Govt don't realise how behind the curve they are on this.

    They are relying on polling and focus groups where people signal their virtue.

    Not the cold hard reality of human behaviour.
    Everyone breaking the rules might be both of your experience. It is not mine. Therefore let’s work off the polling and other numbers shall we?
    Have you not heard the middle class definition of a bubble? 'Everyone you want to invite around for a cuppa in your kitchen'.
This discussion has been closed.