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YouGov finds that just 16% are opposed to an inquiry into the COVID pandemic – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited March 30 in General
imageYouGov finds that just 16% are opposed to an inquiry into the COVID pandemic – politicalbetting.com

The above YouGov polling looks at what could be a big political issue in the coming weeks as the lockdown restrictions are eased and Britain prepares to return to “normal life”.

Read the full story here

«13

Comments

  • stodgestodge Posts: 8,279
    Evening all :)

    There has to be proper scrutiny and transparency over what decisions were taken, when, by whom and on what basis.

    This is basic democratic accountability.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 8,279
    I thought I should get a serious point before someone opines, to paraphrase some words coined by a couple of very wealthy Swedes three decades ago:

    "One Night in Camden (Lock) and the World's Your Oyster"

    So we are led to believe....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100
    FPT:

    Two excellent posts from @Mortimer


    "Not being able to go to a pub because I haven't got the right papers is not a niche interest. It is a fundamental restriction on civil liberties. And what is worse, it isn't scientifically necessary."

    "This is still my crumb of comfort. The govt wouldn't be able to do this before, say, November at the earliest. A few months to develop an app. Another month to redevelop an app after the first one fundamentally misunderstands how technology works. A couple of months in the law courts when a crowdfunded JR is brought in. A month trial somewhere (Isle of Wight maybe). By which time the pandemic is over and everyone laughs at the govt for being so stupid to not realise this in the first place."
  • FPT
    Mortimer said:

    Cookie said:

    Well, that was the impression I'd got. How would you see it working?

    I suspect it will be venue and business led.

    Want to get into our shop/venue you need to show that you've been vaccinated or have a medical exemption.

    I suspect venues will want to show they are safe, people will be a slightly hesitant at the start, remember during the ending of the first lockdown the government had to bribe people to go to restaurants.

    To get the economy going there will be some support from the government to help businesses to let in only the vaccinated.

    I'm sure the incel squad, sorry Covid Research Group, will put a sunset clause on the government support of this.
    Have you tried to book anywhere nice recently? Its almost impossible.

    The public are aching to get back to normal. Barring a few 'better stay in the jungle in case the war isn't really over' fearties, some of whom, let us remember, have barely left the house in a year, the vast majority of people cannot wait to get back to normal. It is different to last year.
    I have, several places booked between now and February next year.

    Some city breaks, a nice place in Cornwall, a nice place in Wales, and in Alnmouth.

    But the news that will terrify PBers everywhere, but OGH and myself have holidays scheduled for the same time in April.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 12,853
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    There has to be proper scrutiny and transparency over what decisions were taken, when, by whom and on what basis.

    This is basic democratic accountability.

    I agree.

    However, I can barely be bothered to turn the news on today to listen to the pandemic related issues. And I am a political nerd. No-one is going to say they oppose an inquiry. Will anyone beyond the usual antis actually care about the findings? Nope.
  • isamisam Posts: 35,492
    “The Conservatives have staged a turnaround in “Red Wall” constituencies, according to exclusive polling carried out for Channel 4 News.

    The results, by research company J.L. Partners, suggest Labour have seen a decline since November 2020, with its six point advantage turning into a four point Tory lead.

    It shows leadership has been a key driver in the turnaround in both parties’ standing.

    Sir Keir Starmer has fallen into negative territory, going from +7% to -3%.

    Boris Johnson has switched from a net positivity rating of -2% to +7%.”

    https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-poll-shows-conservative-lead-in-red-wall-seats
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398
    Don't mp's get liposuction on being elected to remove their integrity?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 8,279
    I see one or two are getting frantic they might not be able to enjoy their first taste of (alcoholic) based civilisation in a few months.

    A business has the right to decide who it chooses to admit and who it doesn't.

    There are a few examples where the law determines who can go into a particular venues - we don't normally see 6 year olds in betting shops (even in West Ham) and the theory, if not the fact, of who can be served alcohol does exist.

    That said, it shouldn't be the Government dictating to business who it can admit or not - if a business takes a particular line, it will either benefit or not. If my local Spoons banned anyone under 50 before noon, it wouldn't lose a penny - that may not be universally true.


  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,041
    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War
  • stodgestodge Posts: 8,279
    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    There has to be proper scrutiny and transparency over what decisions were taken, when, by whom and on what basis.

    This is basic democratic accountability.

    I agree.

    However, I can barely be bothered to turn the news on today to listen to the pandemic related issues. And I am a political nerd. No-one is going to say they oppose an inquiry. Will anyone beyond the usual antis actually care about the findings? Nope.
    Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. The decisions on care homes and not closing the borders deserve particular attention.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398
    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 12,853
    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    There has to be proper scrutiny and transparency over what decisions were taken, when, by whom and on what basis.

    This is basic democratic accountability.

    I agree.

    However, I can barely be bothered to turn the news on today to listen to the pandemic related issues. And I am a political nerd. No-one is going to say they oppose an inquiry. Will anyone beyond the usual antis actually care about the findings? Nope.
    Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. The decisions on care homes and not closing the borders deserve particular attention.
    Absolutely agree. And I hope they do get some cut through.

    But I don't think they will.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,041
    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    No, we need an inquiry that looks at the use of CAPITAL LETTERS in posts. Why do SOME posters use them all the TIME but not always AT the appropriate POINT?
    NO. What we NEED is an INQUIRY into THE correct spelling of ENQUIRY, and we NEED IT now, OR WHENever
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,625

    I am watching 1 Million years BC. I think most must have gone to see it just to wait until Raquel Welch appeared in a skimpy cavewoman outfit, as it's pretty terrible so far. Just seen a caveman escape from a vastly magnified Komodo dragon. They all communicate with 'ug ug', which whilst no doubt accurate, is going to limit the potential for repartee.

    The caveman has found the tribe of nubile blondes, but almost immediately they are now being menaced by a giant close up of a turtle.

    The costumes etc. really did enter popular culture though.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105

    On topic, I can just about forgive Boris Johnson for being slow last March, but he repeated the same mistakes in September/October and again in December.

    Scary to remember just exactly when most of the Covid 19 deaths took place.

    And that is true of Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster

    An enquiry should be commission to investigate the advice, decision making both together and separately of all four nations, and lessons to be learned , good and bad
  • Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    No, we need an inquiry that looks at the use of CAPITAL LETTERS in posts. Why do SOME posters use them all the TIME but not always AT the appropriate POINT?
    NO. What we NEED is an INQUIRY into THE correct spelling of ENQUIRY, and we NEED IT now, OR WHENever
    Inquiry is a formal investigation, enquiry is to ask (a question or questions).
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,041

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    No, we need an inquiry that looks at the use of CAPITAL LETTERS in posts. Why do SOME posters use them all the TIME but not always AT the appropriate POINT?
    NO. What we NEED is an INQUIRY into THE correct spelling of ENQUIRY, and we NEED IT now, OR WHENever
    Inquiry is a formal investigation, enquiry is to ask (a question or questions).
    THEN you NEED to RELAY THAT to your COMMENTERS, who are USIng them interchangeABLY
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,023
    edited March 30
    There has to be an inquiry. The problem is that for too many people the primary purpose of an inquiry is to apportion blame. When it should be to explore the reasons decisions were taken and to learn lessons for the future. Whilst cautioning that it needs to be careful to ensure that the best lessons are ones that examine the decision making process itself. Not much point learning all the lessons of how to combat Covid, if the next pandemic has completely different characteristics.

    Blame should only be apportioned if bad decisions were taken maliciously.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 15,995
    Lol! What irony if the anti-vaxporters have to rely on the Hunam Rights Act 😂
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    If you don't think the Hillsborough panel didn't change anything then I suggest you do some research.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 91,671
    edited March 30
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    No, we need an inquiry that looks at the use of CAPITAL LETTERS in posts. Why do SOME posters use them all the TIME but not always AT the appropriate POINT?
    NO. What we NEED is an INQUIRY into THE correct spelling of ENQUIRY, and we NEED IT now, OR WHENever
    Inquiry is a formal investigation, enquiry is to ask (a question or questions).
    THEN you NEED to RELAY THAT to your COMMENTERS, who are USIng them interchangeABLY
    I've tried, like my campaign to make the failure to use the Oxford comma a capital crime, I suspect it is doomed to failure.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    Lol! What irony if the anti-vaxporters have to rely on the Hunam Rights Act 😂
    Why? Don't follow your reasoning?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    edited March 30
    Johnson’s biggest challenge is the delay that there was in the UK in March last year in bringing in lockdown. Of similar advanced nations in Europe the UK was just about the last one to act seriously and the huge death toll last April was, arguably, higher than it could have been.

    Johnson will probably be able to wriggle his way out of the blame for the first lockdown. Two reasons: 1. The disease was brand new, which basically gives both him and the scientific advisors, who may not necessarily have got everything right, the benefit of the doubt; 2. It'll likely transpire that a lot of the decisions that look dodgy in hindsight (letting Cheltenham go ahead because it was outside, not moving to restrict entry at the borders, not bothering with masks, and obviously severe heel dragging on restrictions, even once it became apparent that the disease was well-established) had the fingerprints of (many of) the scientists all over them.

    Where he's far more likely to come unstuck is over the second round of Government heel-dragging in the Autumn, the collapse backwards into lockdown through the tier system, and the Christmas fiasco.

    OTOH the inquiry will probably take years and how many will be paying attention to it by the time it reports? The world will have moved on, and besides most of the electorate will want to forget about the Plague as soon as possible once it's finally, let us fervently hope, behind us.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,962
    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    The scientists who laid the groundwork for vaccine development, with the pharmaceutical industry, well before politicians got interested, and when the clown did want to get involved, read him the riot act and told him to stay well away from it to avoid another f**k up like the PPE procurement. Those scientists?

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,713
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,533

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    There's some enquiry in Scotland that looks kind of interesting right now...
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,023
    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    There has to be proper scrutiny and transparency over what decisions were taken, when, by whom and on what basis.

    This is basic democratic accountability.

    I agree.

    However, I can barely be bothered to turn the news on today to listen to the pandemic related issues. And I am a political nerd. No-one is going to say they oppose an inquiry. Will anyone beyond the usual antis actually care about the findings? Nope.
    Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. The decisions on care homes and not closing the borders deserve particular attention.
    As long as they balanced and truly explore the reasons why actions are taken. As opposed to being all hindsight and X number of deaths would have been saved with a different policy.
  • There will be an inquiry, and it will be of the oft called for “judge led” type. It will do its job properly and deliver no killer blow against anyone. It might make some useful technical recommendations. Those who wanted it to down the PM will therefore call it a white wash and the rest of us will move on.

    The most powerful inquiry of my lifetime was led by a Bishop.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,713
    alex_ said:

    There has to be an inquiry. The problem is that for too many people the primary purpose of an inquiry is to apportion blame. When it should be to explore the reasons decisions were taken and to learn lessons for the future. Whilst cautioning that it needs to be careful to ensure that the best lessons are ones that examine the decision making process itself. Not much point learning all the lessons of how to combat Covid, if the next pandemic has completely different characteristics.

    Blame should only be apportioned if bad decisions were taken maliciously.

    Maybe more ‘truth and reconciliation‘ than just wanting to blame Johnson ‘cos you hate him and hate the Tory scum?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 32,962
    An amazing blood red moon just rising
  • stodgestodge Posts: 8,279
    alex_ said:

    There has to be an inquiry. The problem is that for too many people the primary purpose of an inquiry is to apportion blame. When it should be to explore the reasons decisions were taken and to learn lessons for the future. Whilst cautioning that it needs to be careful to ensure that the best lessons are ones that examine the decision making process itself. Not much point learning all the lessons of how to combat Covid, if the next pandemic has completely different characteristics.

    Blame should only be apportioned if bad decisions were taken maliciously.

    Exactly. It is part of the process of scrutiny, accountability and transparency in a democracy.

    As citizens, we have a right to know what decisions were taken, when, by whom and on what basis.

    I realise some want all this to go away and to be forgotten but I don't agree.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,204
    Well, I for one very much look forward to reading its detailed conclusions in 2025...
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,524

    Johnson’s biggest challenge is the delay that there was in the UK in March last year in bringing in lockdown. Of similar advanced nations in Europe the UK was just about the last one to act seriously and the huge death toll last April was, arguably, higher than it could have been.

    Johnson will probably be able to wriggle his way out of the blame for the first lockdown. Two reasons: 1. The disease was brand new, which basically gives both him and the scientific advisors, who may not necessarily have got everything right, the benefit of the doubt; 2. It'll likely transpire that a lot of the decisions that look dodgy in hindsight (letting Cheltenham go ahead because it was outside, not moving to restrict entry at the borders, not bothering with masks, and obviously severe heel dragging on restrictions, even once it became apparent that the disease was well-established) had the fingerprints of (many of) the scientists all over them.

    Where he's far more likely to come unstuck is over the second round of Government heel-dragging in the Autumn, the collapse backwards into lockdown through the tier system, and the Christmas fiasco.

    OTOH the inquiry will probably take years and how many will be paying attention to it by the time it reports? The world will have moved on, and besides most of the electorate will want to forget about the Plague as soon as possible once it's finally, let us fervently hope, behind us.

    The Autumn lockdown was stupid. It was obvious to everyone that cases had already peaked; the modelling it was based on was already demonstrably wrong when Vallance and Whitty presented it.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 36,501
    Mortimer said:

    Why do we need a covid status app when by the time it is up and running the vast majority of people will have been vaccinated?

    Just in case the herd immunity level is 98%?

    You catch on well, my friend :lol:
    It is still my hope that this chatter about it is all a load of guff dreamed up by the Spi-B committee to nudge people into taking a vaccine.

    However with my party activist hat on I am incensed. Frankly it makes me sick that the party which I work so hard for and donate significant amounts of money and time to can even contemplate such illiberal policies.
    Think back to your early teachings. All those who gain power are afraid to lose it, even the Tories!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,713
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100
    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 36,533
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Lots of reports have led to changes - whether in policing, prisons, or seating at football stadiums.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,041
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    The scientists who laid the groundwork for vaccine development, with the pharmaceutical industry, well before politicians got interested, and when the clown did want to get involved, read him the riot act and told him to stay well away from it to avoid another f**k up like the PPE procurement. Those scientists?

    These scientists

    "Coronavirus: Wearing face masks makes no difference to spread of disease, insists UK medical chief, Jonathan Van Tam"


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-wearing-face-masks-makes-no-difference-to-spread-of-disease-insists-uk-medical-chief

    "Coronavirus: Face masks could increase risk of infection, medical chief Jenny Harries warns"


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-news-face-masks-increase-risk-infection-doctor-jenny-harries-a9396811.html
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 91,671
    edited March 30
    A few weeks ago I did speak to a Tory activist friend about politics and he did identify the one downside to vaccine rollout, the fact it brings forward the inquiry and that presents a danger for Boris johnson, not so much what the inquiry discovers but the make up of it.

    You just know Boris Johnson is going to stuff it with people like Stanley Johnson, Charles Moore, Daniel Hannan, Toby Young, a current squeeze, and a load of donors who won PPE contracts.

    So from the very start the inquiry is tainted and it damages him there and then as people think what is he hiding to fill it full of partisan hacks.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 8,279


    Pubs are the infrastructure of much of the English countryside. If you are on a hiking trip, or a bike ride, they are watering holes, points of contact, places to eat and places to shelter. They ARE England.

    What they are not is places you have show your smartphone to get a pint or fill up your water bottle. The whole point is that anyone can walk in at any time. They just be, as frictionless havens every few miles. The clue is in the name: public house.

    They aren't "public houses". They are businesses who can, in theory, refuse admission and service if they choose.

    That should however be their decision not based on Government diktat (excepting where the law clearly states who can and cannot be served alcohol).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100
    stodge said:


    Pubs are the infrastructure of much of the English countryside. If you are on a hiking trip, or a bike ride, they are watering holes, points of contact, places to eat and places to shelter. They ARE England.

    What they are not is places you have show your smartphone to get a pint or fill up your water bottle. The whole point is that anyone can walk in at any time. They just be, as frictionless havens every few miles. The clue is in the name: public house.

    They aren't "public houses". They are businesses who can, in theory, refuse admission and service if they choose.

    That should however be their decision not based on Government diktat (excepting where the law clearly states who can and cannot be served alcohol).
    Within limits. You can't just turn away people with Irish sounding names for example, as one holiday company has found out.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,713
    edited March 30
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    Ok forgive me - I was thinking of the Taylor report (about hillsborough).
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 5,023

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    The Russian one that was stolen and copied from AZ...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,041

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 3,173
    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    The scientists who laid the groundwork for vaccine development, with the pharmaceutical industry, well before politicians got interested, and when the clown did want to get involved, read him the riot act and told him to stay well away from it to avoid another f**k up like the PPE procurement. Those scientists?

    These scientists

    "Coronavirus: Wearing face masks makes no difference to spread of disease, insists UK medical chief, Jonathan Van Tam"


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-wearing-face-masks-makes-no-difference-to-spread-of-disease-insists-uk-medical-chief

    "Coronavirus: Face masks could increase risk of infection, medical chief Jenny Harries warns"


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-news-face-masks-increase-risk-infection-doctor-jenny-harries-a9396811.html
    I am sure that facemasks are helpful. If worn properly. But it's notable that a lot more people died in the UK after we started wearing facemasks than before - so they clearly were not the most important failing. There were more important failings that need to be identified.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100

    A few weeks ago I did speak to a Tory activist friend about politics and he did identify the one downside to vaccine rollout, the fact it brings forward the inquiry and that presents a danger for Boris johnson, not so much what the inquiry discovers but the make up of it.

    You just know Boris Johnson is going to stuff it with people like Stanley Johnson, Charles Moore, Daniel Hannan, Toby Young, a current squeeze, and a load of donors who won PPE contracts.

    So from the very start the inquiry is tainted and it damages him there and then as people think what is he hiding to fill it full of partisan hacks.

    I doubt Toby would come out on the PM's side over the handling of covid!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 19,575
    Is there anything more stupid than thinking a day earlier lockdown was more important than having ten months of international travel with sod all restrictions ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,723
    FPT
    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    alex_ said:

    ECB ponders Covid passports to get fans back into grounds for championship

    ECB exploring all possibilities for spectators to return

    New season will begin without fans on 8 April

    As the county season prepares to burst into life on 8 April with the first round of Championship matches, the ECB revealed that it is pondering the use of Covid passports once crowds are again allowed into grounds.

    Games will be played in front of empty stands until at least 17 May, when venues will be allowed to fill up to 25% capacity. The ECB is then exploring all possibilities to allow as many people through the turnstiles as possible once most restrictions are lifted, in theory, on 21 June – though much will depend on government guidance and the needs of different local authorities.

    “There has been a lot of talk,” said Neil Snowball, the ECB’s managing director of county cricket. “We have gone from no passports to suddenly now looking at a Covid certification. We will explore anything that enables us to get our members back and our spectators back. At the moment it looks like that might happen.

    “If you look at 21 June, it is going to be a question of balancing three things. One, if there is going to be some sort of passport or Covid certification, second is testing, third is some sort of social distancing – and we have said we will do whatever we are asked to do to make sure we can get the maximum number of people back.

    “The ideal would be some sort of certification with an element of social distancing and probably wearing masks.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/30/ecb-ponder-covid-passports-to-get-fans-back-into-grounds-for-county-championship-cricket

    The idea that vaccine passports have any role to play in allowing spectators into County cricket matches just shows to some extent how there is a danger that "passport" serving wider Government purposes become a solution to a non-existent problem. If the Government decrees that spectators at county cricket matches represents a "covid problem" then frankly they shouldn't be opening anything up. I spent all afternoon, at a time when we've barely opened up at all, outside in an environment that was far more "relatively" dangerous than anything you would encounter at a County cricket match.

    The issue is that the Government gets to decide what is a Covid problem, so gets to "encourage" passports as a solution.
    If a stadium feels confident letting 20,000 spectators in with a passport scheme, but doesn't without, then why shouldn't they have the choice?

    So long as it's their choice not a requirement.
    I understand your basic position. But i think you are being very naive about the idea that this idea is being pushed by the Government as a "voluntary" option for businesses. Even if it is voluntary on paper, it will be de facto compulsory for any businesses wanting to open up properly. I don't believe that any business will opt in to such a scheme unless forced to and/or majorly incentivised to do so.

    I don't remotely think its a case of "customer confidence". It's simply that the Government will impose conditions unless you opt in. Young people don't care. Older people are vaccinated and feel safe. Those that might be reluctant will be vastly dwarfed by those who are keen. And enforcement will come with a major cost to business, so very few will go for it voluntarily.
    I'm operating under the assumption that all government restrictions on Covid expire 21/6 in which case this isn't done by compulsion.

    You're right that there needs to be an incentive to do it but in a free market incentives don't come from the state, they come from customers.

    Businesses advertising that they are doing passports for entry to boost security may be popular with some customers, while unpopular with others.

    So if some premises choose to require this, while others choose not to, and the customers are free to choose which they prefer, then that is the free market in action.
    Absolutely. But i think the number of businesses pursuing this without de facto compulsion from the Government will be miniscule. There is little evidence that i can see of customer hesitancy that is potentially damaging to businesses. (One only has to look at the evidence cited above of how difficult it is to book any venues for weeks or months). And nowhere near enough to justify the costs of enforcement that it would involve. (For example, a pub with multiple entrances would have to lock most of them (possibly against fire regulations) or put a staff member on every door).

    So i can only see the incentive for businesses being if the Government actually incentivises their introduction. By penalising those who opt out.
    You're forgetting that a great many premises
    in the country already have licensed door staff that check ID and/or tickets on entry already.

    It's entirely possible that premises without door staff decide that this is far too much hassle and they're not remotely interested, that some with door staff think it won't cost much to implement but they're against it on principle or think it will drive customers away ... but some businesses may decide their customers would like this so they want to implement it as a selling point.

    Free market in action. Let people and businesses choose.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,153

    There will be an inquiry, and it will be of the oft called for “judge led” type. It will do its job properly and deliver no killer blow against anyone. It might make some useful technical recommendations. Those who wanted it to down the PM will therefore call it a white wash and the rest of us will move on.

    The most powerful inquiry of my lifetime was led by a Bishop.
    Indeed. And as you say, it did it’s job. I would never bash the bishop.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 8,171
    stodge said:


    Pubs are the infrastructure of much of the English countryside. If you are on a hiking trip, or a bike ride, they are watering holes, points of contact, places to eat and places to shelter. They ARE England.

    What they are not is places you have show your smartphone to get a pint or fill up your water bottle. The whole point is that anyone can walk in at any time. They just be, as frictionless havens every few miles. The clue is in the name: public house.

    They aren't "public houses". They are businesses who can, in theory, refuse admission and service if they choose.

    That should however be their decision not based on Government diktat (excepting where the law clearly states who can and cannot be served alcohol).
    “Public houses aren’t public houses” is a good PB moment, but I take your point.

    Actually, I don’t mind the vaxports being voluntary, as long as they are entirely voluntary and not pegged to some central restriction or regulation.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    isam said:
    1. Concerns: Starmer, lack of policies, economy
    2. They don't like Nicola Sturgeon

    Now, how are the Tories going to play the next election? Could it possibly be "Look, here is Keir, his economic policy consists of taxing the crap out of you and sending all your money to Scotland, because Nicola says so and she'll be pulling the strings. To stop this, vote Conservative." Kind of like 2015, minus bacon sandwiches and plus the stench of the Corbyn movement still festering away in the background.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100
    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    Our european friends have quite simply lost their minds. Quite incredible.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,524
    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    There's more than a faint suspicion that Sputnik might owe a bit to hacking into the research going on in Oxford. Mildly ironic if they address concerns about yhe AZ jab by turning to a Russian knock off of AZ.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 19,575

    A few weeks ago I did speak to a Tory activist friend about politics and he did identify the one downside to vaccine rollout, the fact it brings forward the inquiry and that presents a danger for Boris johnson, not so much what the inquiry discovers but the make up of it.

    You just know Boris Johnson is going to stuff it with people like Stanley Johnson, Charles Moore, Daniel Hannan, Toby Young, a current squeeze, and a load of donors who won PPE contracts.

    So from the very start the inquiry is tainted and it damages him there and then as people think what is he hiding to fill it full of partisan hacks.

    I doubt Toby would come out on the PM's side over the handling of covid!
    And Stanley would, as usual, do everything he could to embarrass his son.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,153
    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    Why do we have a battle group on the Russian border again? Part 76. The EU has to play its part too.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 2,280

    On topic, I can just about forgive Boris Johnson for being slow last March, but he repeated the same mistakes in September/October and again in December.

    Scary to remember just exactly when most of the Covid 19 deaths took place.

    And that is true of Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster

    An enquiry should be commission to investigate the advice, decision making both together and separately of all four nations, and lessons to be learned , good and bad
    Only Boris had access to Rishi Sunak's magic money tree. How could a devolved administration free-lance?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 12,853

    stodge said:


    Pubs are the infrastructure of much of the English countryside. If you are on a hiking trip, or a bike ride, they are watering holes, points of contact, places to eat and places to shelter. They ARE England.

    What they are not is places you have show your smartphone to get a pint or fill up your water bottle. The whole point is that anyone can walk in at any time. They just be, as frictionless havens every few miles. The clue is in the name: public house.

    They aren't "public houses". They are businesses who can, in theory, refuse admission and service if they choose.

    That should however be their decision not based on Government diktat (excepting where the law clearly states who can and cannot be served alcohol).
    “Public houses aren’t public houses” is a good PB moment, but I take your point.

    Actually, I don’t mind the vaxports being voluntary, as long as they are entirely voluntary and not pegged to some central restriction or regulation.
    That is exactly my position.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    stodge said:


    Pubs are the infrastructure of much of the English countryside. If you are on a hiking trip, or a bike ride, they are watering holes, points of contact, places to eat and places to shelter. They ARE England.

    What they are not is places you have show your smartphone to get a pint or fill up your water bottle. The whole point is that anyone can walk in at any time. They just be, as frictionless havens every few miles. The clue is in the name: public house.

    They aren't "public houses". They are businesses who can, in theory, refuse admission and service if they choose.

    That should however be their decision not based on Government diktat (excepting where the law clearly states who can and cannot be served alcohol).
    “Public houses aren’t public houses” is a good PB moment, but I take your point.

    Actually, I don’t mind the vaxports being voluntary, as long as they are entirely voluntary and not pegged to some central restriction or regulation.
    Voluntary is entirely fine it tells you which businesses don't want your money
  • LeonLeon Posts: 5,041

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    The scientists who laid the groundwork for vaccine development, with the pharmaceutical industry, well before politicians got interested, and when the clown did want to get involved, read him the riot act and told him to stay well away from it to avoid another f**k up like the PPE procurement. Those scientists?

    These scientists

    "Coronavirus: Wearing face masks makes no difference to spread of disease, insists UK medical chief, Jonathan Van Tam"


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-wearing-face-masks-makes-no-difference-to-spread-of-disease-insists-uk-medical-chief

    "Coronavirus: Face masks could increase risk of infection, medical chief Jenny Harries warns"


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-news-face-masks-increase-risk-infection-doctor-jenny-harries-a9396811.html
    I am sure that facemasks are helpful. If worn properly. But it's notable that a lot more people died in the UK after we started wearing facemasks than before - so they clearly were not the most important failing. There were more important failings that need to be identified.
    Anti-masking is just the most obvious mistake, which is why I cite it, as there are quotes which are provable bollocks

    Much more important was the inability to see that what was happening in Asia was a reaction to a respiratory disease somewhat unlike flu, a disease which spread asymptomatically, making it peculiarly dangerous.

    This, to me, was obvious by about mid February. You just had to read the science (which was already being relayed by news outlets). Somehow it seemed to escape the British Establishment (scientific and political) until mid March.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,524
    On topic, who answers 'should there be an enquiry into... [insert subject here]' with 'no'?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    Our european friends have quite simply lost their minds. Quite incredible.
    Being fair to eu countries they have been in Putins pocket ever since he could turn their gas off at whim
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 40,105

    On topic, I can just about forgive Boris Johnson for being slow last March, but he repeated the same mistakes in September/October and again in December.

    Scary to remember just exactly when most of the Covid 19 deaths took place.

    And that is true of Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster

    An enquiry should be commission to investigate the advice, decision making both together and separately of all four nations, and lessons to be learned , good and bad
    Only Boris had access to Rishi Sunak's magic money tree. How could a devolved administration free-lance?
    But they did
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 545
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 40,100
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    There's more than a faint suspicion that Sputnik might owe a bit to hacking into the research going on in Oxford. Mildly ironic if they address concerns about yhe AZ jab by turning to a Russian knock off of AZ.
    There have been no blood clots in Russia, comrade.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383

    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    Why do we have a battle group on the Russian border again? Part 76. The EU has to play its part too.
    I'm surprised that people are surprised at "East Politics" in Germany.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398
    dodrade said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
    We were discussing inquiries, the taylor report wasn't an inquiry
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 19,575
    edited March 30

    Is there anything more stupid than thinking a day earlier lockdown was more important than having ten months of international travel with sod all restrictions ?

    And for those stupid enough to think locking down a day earlier last March would have made a difference over the year:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWZOSzVx5AI

    The Czechs have gone from 300 deaths at the end of last June to over 26k now.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,713
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    The scientists who laid the groundwork for vaccine development, with the pharmaceutical industry, well before politicians got interested, and when the clown did want to get involved, read him the riot act and told him to stay well away from it to avoid another f**k up like the PPE procurement. Those scientists?

    These scientists

    "Coronavirus: Wearing face masks makes no difference to spread of disease, insists UK medical chief, Jonathan Van Tam"


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/coronavirus-wearing-face-masks-makes-no-difference-to-spread-of-disease-insists-uk-medical-chief

    "Coronavirus: Face masks could increase risk of infection, medical chief Jenny Harries warns"


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-news-face-masks-increase-risk-infection-doctor-jenny-harries-a9396811.html
    I am sure that facemasks are helpful. If worn properly. But it's notable that a lot more people died in the UK after we started wearing facemasks than before - so they clearly were not the most important failing. There were more important failings that need to be identified.
    Anti-masking is just the most obvious mistake, which is why I cite it, as there are quotes which are provable bollocks

    Much more important was the inability to see that what was happening in Asia was a reaction to a respiratory disease somewhat unlike flu, a disease which spread asymptomatically, making it peculiarly dangerous.

    This, to me, was obvious by about mid February. You just had to read the science (which was already being relayed by news outlets). Somehow it seemed to escape the British Establishment (scientific and political) until mid March.
    Weirdly most evidence is now that vomited are not really an issue. All the sanitising of hands and surfaces (four times in as many minutes before my jab, and I hadn’t even touched anything...) is mostly pointless. No way the government-scientific-industrial complex will change the advice now (too confusing!!!) but it’s been a vast waste of time to provide sanitising theatre.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,996
    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    It may be that us leaving ruins the EU, not the UK.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,713
    dodrade said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
    Mine definitely was...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,195
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    There's more than a faint suspicion that Sputnik might owe a bit to hacking into the research going on in Oxford. Mildly ironic if they address concerns about yhe AZ jab by turning to a Russian knock off of AZ.
    A Russian knock off that's got serious issues:

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32156-5/fulltext

    The Ad5 vector is linked to hightened susceptibility to HIV. It's a vector that most pharma companies have binned.
  • isamisam Posts: 35,492
    edited March 30

    isam said:
    1. Concerns: Starmer, lack of policies, economy
    2. They don't like Nicola Sturgeon

    Now, how are the Tories going to play the next election? Could it possibly be "Look, here is Keir, his economic policy consists of taxing the crap out of you and sending all your money to Scotland, because Nicola says so and she'll be pulling the strings. To stop this, vote Conservative." Kind of like 2015, minus bacon sandwiches and plus the stench of the Corbyn movement still festering away in the background.
    It shows the degree of hatred Labour Centrist’s have for Corbyn - in the face of an onslaught of horrendous personal polling for Sir Keir, they can’t bring themselves to admit he isn’t doing very well, and prefer to compare his dire ratings with Corbyn/Labour when Corbyn had quit. I suppose they feel it would be giving in
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,713
    Pagan2 said:

    dodrade said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
    We were discussing inquiries, the taylor report wasn't an inquiry
    Splitting hairs a bit though isnt it? What’s the difference?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,713
    Pagan2 said:

    dodrade said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
    We were discussing inquiries, the taylor report wasn't an inquiry
    Splitting hairs a bit though isnt it? What’s the difference?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    rcs1000 said:

    Johnson’s biggest challenge is the delay that there was in the UK in March last year in bringing in lockdown. Of similar advanced nations in Europe the UK was just about the last one to act seriously and the huge death toll last April was, arguably, higher than it could have been.

    Johnson will probably be able to wriggle his way out of the blame for the first lockdown. Two reasons: 1. The disease was brand new, which basically gives both him and the scientific advisors, who may not necessarily have got everything right, the benefit of the doubt; 2. It'll likely transpire that a lot of the decisions that look dodgy in hindsight (letting Cheltenham go ahead because it was outside, not moving to restrict entry at the borders, not bothering with masks, and obviously severe heel dragging on restrictions, even once it became apparent that the disease was well-established) had the fingerprints of (many of) the scientists all over them.

    Where he's far more likely to come unstuck is over the second round of Government heel-dragging in the Autumn, the collapse backwards into lockdown through the tier system, and the Christmas fiasco.

    OTOH the inquiry will probably take years and how many will be paying attention to it by the time it reports? The world will have moved on, and besides most of the electorate will want to forget about the Plague as soon as possible once it's finally, let us fervently hope, behind us.

    The best enquires are those that look to improve processes, not those that seek to assign blame.
    Regardless of whether or not blame is apportioned by the inquiry itself, you can be quite certain that the conclusions will be weaponised by the Government and Opposition to deflect or to assign it. That's inevitable.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,387
    "Miller's shirt had a photograph of former President Donald Trump, and it said “Take America Back” and “I Was There, Washington D.C., January 6, 2021,” federal prosecutors noted in a court filing Monday.

    Like many of the more than 300 people facing federal charges in connection with the siege, Miller thoroughly documented and commented on his actions that day in a flurry of social media posts.

    After Miller posted a selfie showing himself inside the Capitol building, another Facebook user wrote, “bro you got in?! Nice!" Miller replied, “just wanted to incriminate myself a little lol,” prosecutors said."

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/capitol-riot-suspect-wore-i-was-there-shirt-when-arrested-n1262402
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 26,443
    edited March 30

    On topic, I can just about forgive Boris Johnson for being slow last March, but he repeated the same mistakes in September/October and again in December.

    Scary to remember just exactly when most of the Covid 19 deaths took place.

    And that is true of Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster

    An enquiry should be commission to investigate the advice, decision making both together and separately of all four nations, and lessons to be learned , good and bad
    Only Boris had access to Rishi Sunak's magic money tree. How could a devolved administration free-lance?
    Not to mention the Pritster's & others' grip (or lack of) on overseas travel..
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,996
    FPT - I'm now doubtful the Tories will gain Hartlepool. I don't know what they were thinking in their candidate selection.

    I'm certainly not putting any more money on them.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    Pagan2 said:

    dodrade said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
    We were discussing inquiries, the taylor report wasn't an inquiry
    Splitting hairs a bit though isnt it? What’s the difference?
    Well the taylor report took about 31 days and actually gave actionable things most inquiries drag on for years and are so hedged in all there comments that nothing of value comes out
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 3,353

    FPT

    Mortimer said:

    Cookie said:

    Well, that was the impression I'd got. How would you see it working?

    I suspect it will be venue and business led.

    Want to get into our shop/venue you need to show that you've been vaccinated or have a medical exemption.

    I suspect venues will want to show they are safe, people will be a slightly hesitant at the start, remember during the ending of the first lockdown the government had to bribe people to go to restaurants.

    To get the economy going there will be some support from the government to help businesses to let in only the vaccinated.

    I'm sure the incel squad, sorry Covid Research Group, will put a sunset clause on the government support of this.
    Have you tried to book anywhere nice recently? Its almost impossible.

    The public are aching to get back to normal. Barring a few 'better stay in the jungle in case the war isn't really over' fearties, some of whom, let us remember, have barely left the house in a year, the vast majority of people cannot wait to get back to normal. It is different to last year.
    I have, several places booked between now and February next year.

    Some city breaks, a nice place in Cornwall, a nice place in Wales, and in Alnmouth.

    But the news that will terrify PBers everywhere, but OGH and myself have holidays scheduled for the same time in April.
    By the time you both get back, PB will be run by a FSB-MAGA consortium.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 7,850
    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    :lol: "Germany: Ox/AZ is shit, but we like the look of the Russian one" edition.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1377005455545876487

    Who knew that one of the consequences of Brexit would be the EU sheltering under the wing of Putin, and seeking constantly to appease China. Quite remarkable

    Maybe the UK did have a lot of influence, after all
    There's more than a faint suspicion that Sputnik might owe a bit to hacking into the research going on in Oxford. Mildly ironic if they address concerns about yhe AZ jab by turning to a Russian knock off of AZ.
    A Russian knock off that's got serious issues:

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32156-5/fulltext

    The Ad5 vector is linked to hightened susceptibility to HIV. It's a vector that most pharma companies have binned.
    Yeah, but the Russians aren't the enemy, are they?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 3,173
    Entertaining as it is to play the game of "What was the greatest mistake made in the pandemic?" - Was it Sunak in the briefing room with Gupta & Co.? Perhaps Shapps in the ministry which seems to be a magnet for our most hilariously inept MPs - I wonder whether a more interesting question for an inquiry to consider is to work out how we managed not to do everything wrong, and see what we can do to learn from those successes?

    The REACT treatment studies, and the vaccine procurement seem to be the two, genuinely world-leading, successes of the pandemic for Britain, which is a higher success rate then I would have expected a year ago. We could benefit enormously by reinforcing these successes, in a way that we failed to do with computing at the end of WWII, say.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 52,723
    Pagan2 said:

    dodrade said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
    We were discussing inquiries, the taylor report wasn't an inquiry
    Really?

    The "Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report" wasn't an inquiry?

    What was the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report then if the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report was not an inquiry?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    UK cases by specimen date

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100K population

    image
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    Pagan2 said:

    dodrade said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
    We were discussing inquiries, the taylor report wasn't an inquiry
    Really?

    The "Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report" wasn't an inquiry?

    What was the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report then if the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report was not an inquiry?
    As I pointed out the taylor report took 31 days. It wasn't what we think of as an inquiry which always to seem to take years and come to the conclusion that really people cant be blamed for anything
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 6,427

    Pagan2 said:

    dodrade said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Leon said:

    When there is an inquiry, it needs to include THE SCIENTISTS, who were so often wrong, and so badly wrong.

    Many of the disasters of our anti-Covid campaign are down to them, not the politicians, starting with the boffins' asinine and obsessive belief that this was a new version of Flu, AKA Fighting the Last War

    Enquiries are largely a waste of money why bother. When was the last enquiry that ever made a difference?
    The Hillsborough Panel, The Saville Inquiry, and undoubtedly the Chilcot one, it shredded Blair's reputation officially and comprehensively.
    And they changed absolutely nothing.....so again I ask why bother?
    Football changed forever after hillsborough. All seater stadia led to a much more family oriented environment including, horror, women. Football became cool (Italia 90, skinner and baddiel etc). I can’t say for sure that was a result of the inquiry, but certainly played a part.
    That though happened before the inquiry I believe and was a reaction to hillsborough itself.
    Pretty sure all seater stadia is directly from the report.
    Hillsborough inquiry conclude 2012
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hillsborough-trial-timeline-david-duckenfield-justice-liverpool-court-a8842196.html


    All seater stadia started in 94/95
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-seater_stadium#:~:text=All-seater stadiums have been,safety after the Hillsborough disaster.
    I presume the reference is to the Taylor Report of 1990, not the later Hillsborough Independent Panel.
    We were discussing inquiries, the taylor report wasn't an inquiry
    Really?

    The "Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report" wasn't an inquiry?

    What was the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report then if the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster Inquiry report was not an inquiry?
    It certainly was an inquiry, and I believe all its recommendations were implemented by the government.
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