The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
You'd be idiotic to use the app in that case.
Idiotic in what sense?
I know I am of no interest whatsoever to this or any future democratic government. I pay my taxes and obey the laws. The thought they would put any effort into tracking me is ludicrous. In any event, if they were that interested they can already track my car through number plate recognition and get my mobile phone records.
That's the most naïve view I've seen here in a while. The whole nothing to fear argument is hugely discredited and police states are founded on the principle.
Not allowing a vaccine passport isn't going to prevent a future totalitarian government, any more than having a vaccine passport is going to lead to one.
We need to concentrate on electing MPs and governments who believe in freedom, fairness of opportunity, and the democratic process. We might start by kicking out one that feels it's fine for lots of contracts to go to their mates and schoolchums without due process.
The issue is that the government is proposing a mass tracking system under the guise or a vaccine passport. It doesn't need to. It is using this opportunity to normalise the behaviour of checking into venues and ensuring the state knows where you are at all times. As I said, you may be comfortable with that, I'm not.
Do you have an Oyster card?
Of course, they still didn't know I was going to the pub and even that information requires a warrant becuase Oyster is a private company and its data isn't held by the state.
I'm surprised that you're so willing to throw away your hard won judicial protections and due process under the guise of "saving the NHS" after that's already been achieved.
Vaccine passports for international travel, sure. A non-biometric physical card for domestic use that has a six month or year time limit, sure. An app that requires check-ins and entry scans at all venues? Get tae fuck.
Nobody here AFAIK is supporting check ins and entry scans at all venues.
Leon is Nick Palmer is Tse is
No, my position is private companies (airlines, hotels, pub chains, theatres, restaurants, whatever) should be given the choice of using Vaxports or not. That is the only fair way. Because many customers WILL want them and quite a few (like you) will not
I'd guess most theatres and all airlines will welcome them, to rescue their collapsing industries, in the short term. Many pubs, perhaps, with a mainly younger clientele, will say No. And that is their right
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
Sometimes the public need to be educated, not pandered too. The public have been scared witless by Govt for a year. It is disgusting.
The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
You'd be idiotic to use the app in that case.
Idiotic in what sense?
I know I am of no interest whatsoever to this or any future democratic government. I pay my taxes and obey the laws. The thought they would put any effort into tracking me is ludicrous. In any event, if they were that interested they can already track my car through number plate recognition and get my mobile phone records.
That's the most naïve view I've seen here in a while. The whole nothing to fear argument is hugely discredited and police states are founded on the principle.
Not allowing a vaccine passport isn't going to prevent a future totalitarian government, any more than having a vaccine passport is going to lead to one.
We need to concentrate on electing MPs and governments who believe in freedom, fairness of opportunity, and the democratic process. We might start by kicking out one that feels it's fine for lots of contracts to go to their mates and schoolchums without due process.
The issue is that the government is proposing a mass tracking system under the guise or a vaccine passport. It doesn't need to. It is using this opportunity to normalise the behaviour of checking into venues and ensuring the state knows where you are at all times. As I said, you may be comfortable with that, I'm not.
Do you have an Oyster card?
Of course, they still didn't know I was going to the pub and even that information requires a warrant becuase Oyster is a private company and its data isn't held by the state.
I'm surprised that you're so willing to throw away your hard won judicial protections and due process under the guise of "saving the NHS" after that's already been achieved.
Vaccine passports for international travel, sure. A non-biometric physical card for domestic use that has a six month or year time limit, sure. An app that requires check-ins and entry scans at all venues? Get tae fuck.
I'm not, sadly I'm resigned to this government doing this and how they will try and justify it, I'm pointing out all the warning signs were there when they went for the Henry VIII powers during Brexit.
As Matt Singh has pointed out during the pandemic one of the many consistent things during pandemic polling is this
The chances of this government coming up with a working system are tiny.
(Besides- the time window between now and immunity by vaccination is probably even shorter than you think. We all underestimate the power of a whooshing graph.)
ECB ponders Covid passports to get fans back into grounds for championship
ECB exploring all possibilities for spectators to return
New season will begin without fans on 8 April
As the county season prepares to burst into life on 8 April with the first round of Championship matches, the ECB revealed that it is pondering the use of Covid passports once crowds are again allowed into grounds.
Games will be played in front of empty stands until at least 17 May, when venues will be allowed to fill up to 25% capacity. The ECB is then exploring all possibilities to allow as many people through the turnstiles as possible once most restrictions are lifted, in theory, on 21 June – though much will depend on government guidance and the needs of different local authorities.
“There has been a lot of talk,” said Neil Snowball, the ECB’s managing director of county cricket. “We have gone from no passports to suddenly now looking at a Covid certification. We will explore anything that enables us to get our members back and our spectators back. At the moment it looks like that might happen.
“If you look at 21 June, it is going to be a question of balancing three things. One, if there is going to be some sort of passport or Covid certification, second is testing, third is some sort of social distancing – and we have said we will do whatever we are asked to do to make sure we can get the maximum number of people back.
“The ideal would be some sort of certification with an element of social distancing and probably wearing masks.”
The average crowd at a county cricket match is about fourteen so social distancing shouldn't be a problem - though FWIW once (at the very latest) everybody has been jabbed once, then that requirement ought to go in the dustbin.
More generally I'm not attending any event where the pleasure of it is ruined by having to sit there throughout in a bloody stupid face mask.
Well quite. We didn't even have to wear masks outside at the height of the pandemic in January. And yet some idiots think it should be a necessary threshold to attending a bl**dy county cricket match! And, anyway, don't most people attending County matches spend most of the day eating and drinking?
Personally i can't wear a mask and my glasses at the same time (they just steam up). So, although my eyesight isn't that bad, wearing a mask at a spectator event like cricket is completely out.
Also, finally, under the "official" road map, isn't 21st June supposed to be the date at which ALL restrictions (including social distancing etc) are lifted? Whether that is actually sensible or not, i don't know, but given that is the road map, why are things like sporting events bending over backwards to not take the roadmap at it's word?
Re: the last paragraph, a case of weasel words quite possibly. Here's what has been published on gov.uk about the final phase of the release from prison:
Social contact By Step 4 which will take place no earlier than 21 June, the government hopes to be in a position to remove all legal limits on social contact.
Business, activities and events We hope to reopen remaining premises, including nightclubs, and ease the restrictions on large events and performances that apply in Step 3. This will be subject to the results of a scientific Events Research Programme to test the outcome of certain pilot events through the spring and summer, where we will trial the use of testing and other techniques to cut the risk of infection. The same Events Research Programme will guide decisions on whether all limits can be removed on weddings and other life events.
1. "remove all legal limits on social contact" - could be interpreted as 'you can meet up with your mates, but other people in a great big crowd, or on a bus or a train, that you don't know don't count' and consequently shitty masks and distancing can still be argued to be applicable 2. "ease the restrictions on large events and performances" - expressly doesn't say remove, which implies that they're likely already intending to keep at least some of the biosecurity apparatus in place. Then goes on to talk about the Events Research Programme, testing, other techniques, "whether all limits can be removed," etc. - basically that, again, could mean that we're stuck with evil rules everywhere, depending on what the most terrified scientists and the most authoritarian ministers want to impose 3. In any event, the whole thing talks repeatedly about what they "hope" to do rather than what they will do, which is a generalised get out of jail free card for everything
We may be rid of restrictions by the end of June. We might have to wait until next Spring. They might try to keep some of them in place forever. Who knows? The roadmap is essentially meaningless waffle on this point, although FWIW anybody who entirely trusts what Boris Johnson says about any subject needs their head examining, anyway.
Yes, TUD complaining about this is ludicrous. The SNP does exactly this shit all the time. All parties do it. During Sturgeon's Salmondgate hearing about 300 identical pro-Nicola tweets went out every 10 minutes
For fuck's sake. If I have to wear a face mask for a leusure activity, I'm not going to do it. I'll wear one to go to a shop - because I need stuff - but anything I can get away without purchasing, I will.
Don't worry you won't need a mask if the ECB have access to a database showing that you're full vaccinated.
I don’t want the imbeciles who thought the Hundred a good idea to have access to anything, thanks.
They’re almost as useless as the DfE.
I'm somebody who is a member of two counties I'm so opposed to franchise cricket but I am coming round to the idea that is a necessary evil, to combat the power of India.
Franchise cricket is one thing.
Why the One Hundred though? It's ridiculous, just go for a T20.
It makes working out the run rate easier for those aren't good at arithmetic.
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
If they are its because they have been duped into believing it is essential to allow the opening up of public places.
The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
You'd be idiotic to use the app in that case.
Idiotic in what sense?
I know I am of no interest whatsoever to this or any future democratic government. I pay my taxes and obey the laws. The thought they would put any effort into tracking me is ludicrous. In any event, if they were that interested they can already track my car through number plate recognition and get my mobile phone records.
That's the most naïve view I've seen here in a while. The whole nothing to fear argument is hugely discredited and police states are founded on the principle.
Not allowing a vaccine passport isn't going to prevent a future totalitarian government, any more than having a vaccine passport is going to lead to one.
We need to concentrate on electing MPs and governments who believe in freedom, fairness of opportunity, and the democratic process. We might start by kicking out one that feels it's fine for lots of contracts to go to their mates and schoolchums without due process.
The issue is that the government is proposing a mass tracking system under the guise or a vaccine passport. It doesn't need to. It is using this opportunity to normalise the behaviour of checking into venues and ensuring the state knows where you are at all times. As I said, you may be comfortable with that, I'm not.
Do you have an Oyster card?
Of course, they still didn't know I was going to the pub and even that information requires a warrant becuase Oyster is a private company and its data isn't held by the state.
I'm surprised that you're so willing to throw away your hard won judicial protections and due process under the guise of "saving the NHS" after that's already been achieved.
Vaccine passports for international travel, sure. A non-biometric physical card for domestic use that has a six month or year time limit, sure. An app that requires check-ins and entry scans at all venues? Get tae fuck.
Nobody here AFAIK is supporting check ins and entry scans at all venues.
Leon is Nick Palmer is Tse is
No, my position is private companies (airlines, hotels, pub chains, theatres, restaurants, whatever) should be given the choice of using Vaxports or not. That is the only fair way. Because many customers WILL want them and quite a few (like you) will not
I'd guess most theatres and all airlines will welcome them, to rescue their collapsing industries, in the short term. Many pubs, perhaps, with a mainly younger clientele, will say No. And that is their right
Do you object to this?
I have said several times now I don't object to businesses being able to decide to ask them because then I have a choice not to use them. Which I will not and even when vaxports are gotten rid of( if ever) they will never ever get business off me again. They can choose I can choose. That is all fine.
I am not fine if the only way to live a normal life post june is to show my papers everywhere because some idiot makes it mandatory
Well, that was the impression I'd got. How would you see it working?
I suspect it will be venue and business led.
Want to get into our shop/venue you need to show that you've been vaccinated or have a medical exemption.
I suspect venues will want to show they are safe, people will be a slightly hesitant at the start, remember during the ending of the first lockdown the government had to bribe people to go to restaurants.
To get the economy going there will be some support from the government to help businesses to let in only the vaccinated.
I'm sure the incel squad, sorry Covid Research Group, will put a sunset clause on the government support of this.
The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
You'd be idiotic to use the app in that case.
Idiotic in what sense?
I know I am of no interest whatsoever to this or any future democratic government. I pay my taxes and obey the laws. The thought they would put any effort into tracking me is ludicrous. In any event, if they were that interested they can already track my car through number plate recognition and get my mobile phone records.
That's the most naïve view I've seen here in a while. The whole nothing to fear argument is hugely discredited and police states are founded on the principle.
Not allowing a vaccine passport isn't going to prevent a future totalitarian government, any more than having a vaccine passport is going to lead to one.
We need to concentrate on electing MPs and governments who believe in freedom, fairness of opportunity, and the democratic process. We might start by kicking out one that feels it's fine for lots of contracts to go to their mates and schoolchums without due process.
The issue is that the government is proposing a mass tracking system under the guise or a vaccine passport. It doesn't need to. It is using this opportunity to normalise the behaviour of checking into venues and ensuring the state knows where you are at all times. As I said, you may be comfortable with that, I'm not.
Do you have an Oyster card?
Of course, they still didn't know I was going to the pub and even that information requires a warrant becuase Oyster is a private company and its data isn't held by the state.
I'm surprised that you're so willing to throw away your hard won judicial protections and due process under the guise of "saving the NHS" after that's already been achieved.
Vaccine passports for international travel, sure. A non-biometric physical card for domestic use that has a six month or year time limit, sure. An app that requires check-ins and entry scans at all venues? Get tae fuck.
I'm not, sadly I'm resigned to this government doing this and how they will try and justify it, I'm pointing out all the warning signs were there when they went for the Henry VIII powers during Brexit.
As Matt Singh has pointed out during the pandemic one of the many consistent things during pandemic polling is this
The chances of this government coming up with a working system are tiny.
(Besides- the time window between now and immunity by vaccination is probably even shorter than you think. We all underestimate the power of a whooshing graph.)
This is still my crumb of comfort. The govt wouldn't be able to do this before, say, November at the earliest. A few months to develop an app. Another month to redevelop an app after the first one fundamentally misunderstands how technology works. A couple of months in the law courts when a crowdfunded JR is brought in. A month trial somewhere (Isle of Wight maybe). By which time the pandemic is over and everyone laughs at the govt for being so stupid to not realise this in the first place.
The chances of this government coming up with a working system are tiny.
(Besides- the time window between now and immunity by vaccination is probably even shorter than you think. We all underestimate the power of a whooshing graph.)
Yes, one way to look at it is that the government needs to be seen to be doing something while waiting for the milestones on the reopening roapmap to be reached. If we get there without any resurgence of cases, these ideas can be quietly shelved.
I am watching 1 Million years BC. I think most must have gone to see it just to wait until Raquel Welch appeared in a skimpy cavewoman outfit, as it's pretty terrible so far. Just seen a caveman escape from a vastly magnified Komodo dragon. They all communicate with 'ug ug', which whilst no doubt accurate, is going to limit the potential for repartee.
“ The Conservatives have staged a turnaround in “Red Wall” constituencies, according to exclusive polling carried out for Channel 4 News.
The results, by research company J.L. Partners, suggest Labour have seen a decline since November 2020, with its six point advantage turning into a four point Tory lead.
It shows leadership has been a key driver in the turnaround in both parties’ standing.
Sir Keir Starmer has fallen into negative territory, going from +7% to -3%.
Boris Johnson has switched from a net positivity rating of -2% to +7%.”
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
If they are its because they have been duped into believing it is essential to allow the opening up of public places.
Throughout covid the public have shown just how risk averse they are and it remains the case even though we are being vaccinated
The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
You'd be idiotic to use the app in that case.
Idiotic in what sense?
I know I am of no interest whatsoever to this or any future democratic government. I pay my taxes and obey the laws. The thought they would put any effort into tracking me is ludicrous. In any event, if they were that interested they can already track my car through number plate recognition and get my mobile phone records.
That's the most naïve view I've seen here in a while. The whole nothing to fear argument is hugely discredited and police states are founded on the principle.
Not allowing a vaccine passport isn't going to prevent a future totalitarian government, any more than having a vaccine passport is going to lead to one.
We need to concentrate on electing MPs and governments who believe in freedom, fairness of opportunity, and the democratic process. We might start by kicking out one that feels it's fine for lots of contracts to go to their mates and schoolchums without due process.
The issue is that the government is proposing a mass tracking system under the guise or a vaccine passport. It doesn't need to. It is using this opportunity to normalise the behaviour of checking into venues and ensuring the state knows where you are at all times. As I said, you may be comfortable with that, I'm not.
Do you have an Oyster card?
Of course, they still didn't know I was going to the pub and even that information requires a warrant becuase Oyster is a private company and its data isn't held by the state.
I'm surprised that you're so willing to throw away your hard won judicial protections and due process under the guise of "saving the NHS" after that's already been achieved.
Vaccine passports for international travel, sure. A non-biometric physical card for domestic use that has a six month or year time limit, sure. An app that requires check-ins and entry scans at all venues? Get tae fuck.
I'm not, sadly I'm resigned to this government doing this and how they will try and justify it, I'm pointing out all the warning signs were there when they went for the Henry VIII powers during Brexit.
As Matt Singh has pointed out during the pandemic one of the many consistent things during pandemic polling is this
The chances of this government coming up with a working system are tiny.
(Besides- the time window between now and immunity by vaccination is probably even shorter than you think. We all underestimate the power of a whooshing graph.)
Yup, we can relax if Dido Harding is put in charge of vaccine passports, we should have concerns if Kate Bingham is in charge of it.
The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
You'd be idiotic to use the app in that case.
Idiotic in what sense?
I know I am of no interest whatsoever to this or any future democratic government. I pay my taxes and obey the laws. The thought they would put any effort into tracking me is ludicrous. In any event, if they were that interested they can already track my car through number plate recognition and get my mobile phone records.
That's the most naïve view I've seen here in a while. The whole nothing to fear argument is hugely discredited and police states are founded on the principle.
Not allowing a vaccine passport isn't going to prevent a future totalitarian government, any more than having a vaccine passport is going to lead to one.
We need to concentrate on electing MPs and governments who believe in freedom, fairness of opportunity, and the democratic process. We might start by kicking out one that feels it's fine for lots of contracts to go to their mates and schoolchums without due process.
The issue is that the government is proposing a mass tracking system under the guise or a vaccine passport. It doesn't need to. It is using this opportunity to normalise the behaviour of checking into venues and ensuring the state knows where you are at all times. As I said, you may be comfortable with that, I'm not.
Do you have an Oyster card?
Of course, they still didn't know I was going to the pub and even that information requires a warrant becuase Oyster is a private company and its data isn't held by the state.
I'm surprised that you're so willing to throw away your hard won judicial protections and due process under the guise of "saving the NHS" after that's already been achieved.
Vaccine passports for international travel, sure. A non-biometric physical card for domestic use that has a six month or year time limit, sure. An app that requires check-ins and entry scans at all venues? Get tae fuck.
Nobody here AFAIK is supporting check ins and entry scans at all venues.
Leon is Nick Palmer is Tse is
No, my position is private companies (airlines, hotels, pub chains, theatres, restaurants, whatever) should be given the choice of using Vaxports or not. That is the only fair way. Because many customers WILL want them and quite a few (like you) will not
I'd guess most theatres and all airlines will welcome them, to rescue their collapsing industries, in the short term. Many pubs, perhaps, with a mainly younger clientele, will say No. And that is their right
Do you object to this?
I think you are wrong in thinking that customers will want them. They will be popular because people will want them for other people. The moment they accidentally leave their's at home and are denied access to Sunday lunch in a pub with their family they will kick off like nobody's business.
Just like everyone was in favour of strict lockdowns, but most believe that the strict rules didn't really apply to them because they were responsible individuals who could be trusted to exhibit basic common sense when defying the letter of the rules.
Vaccine passports will be popular because the Government will market them as the key to doing things that you otherwise couldn't do. Not a business option for staff who choose to implement them to make themselves attractive to customers.
The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
You'd be idiotic to use the app in that case.
Idiotic in what sense?
I know I am of no interest whatsoever to this or any future democratic government. I pay my taxes and obey the laws. The thought they would put any effort into tracking me is ludicrous. In any event, if they were that interested they can already track my car through number plate recognition and get my mobile phone records.
That's the most naïve view I've seen here in a while. The whole nothing to fear argument is hugely discredited and police states are founded on the principle.
Not allowing a vaccine passport isn't going to prevent a future totalitarian government, any more than having a vaccine passport is going to lead to one.
We need to concentrate on electing MPs and governments who believe in freedom, fairness of opportunity, and the democratic process. We might start by kicking out one that feels it's fine for lots of contracts to go to their mates and schoolchums without due process.
The issue is that the government is proposing a mass tracking system under the guise or a vaccine passport. It doesn't need to. It is using this opportunity to normalise the behaviour of checking into venues and ensuring the state knows where you are at all times. As I said, you may be comfortable with that, I'm not.
Do you have an Oyster card?
Of course, they still didn't know I was going to the pub and even that information requires a warrant becuase Oyster is a private company and its data isn't held by the state.
I'm surprised that you're so willing to throw away your hard won judicial protections and due process under the guise of "saving the NHS" after that's already been achieved.
Vaccine passports for international travel, sure. A non-biometric physical card for domestic use that has a six month or year time limit, sure. An app that requires check-ins and entry scans at all venues? Get tae fuck.
Nobody here AFAIK is supporting check ins and entry scans at all venues.
Leon is Nick Palmer is Tse is
No, my position is private companies (airlines, hotels, pub chains, theatres, restaurants, whatever) should be given the choice of using Vaxports or not. That is the only fair way. Because many customers WILL want them and quite a few (like you) will not
I'd guess most theatres and all airlines will welcome them, to rescue their collapsing industries, in the short term. Many pubs, perhaps, with a mainly younger clientele, will say No. And that is their right
Do you object to this?
I have said several times now I don't object to businesses being able to decide to ask them because then I have a choice not to use them. Which I will not and even when vaxports are gotten rid of( if ever) they will never ever get business off me again. They can choose I can choose. That is all fine.
I am not fine if the only way to live a normal life post june is to show my papers everywhere because some idiot makes it mandatory
Then you and I are agreed, and there is no cause for discord. Let the angels pluck the harps of blissful peace
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
So what? The public are in favour of lots of things that aren’t necessarily right. Tyranny of the majority.
Well, that was the impression I'd got. How would you see it working?
I suspect it will be venue and business led.
Want to get into our shop/venue you need to show that you've been vaccinated or have a medical exemption.
I suspect venues will want to show they are safe, people will be a slightly hesitant at the start, remember during the ending of the first lockdown the government had to bribe people to go to restaurants.
To get the economy going there will be some support from the government to help businesses to let in only the vaccinated.
I'm sure the incel squad, sorry Covid Research Group, will put a sunset clause on the government support of this.
Have you tried to book anywhere nice recently? Its almost impossible.
The public are aching to get back to normal. Barring a few 'better stay in the jungle in case the war isn't really over' fearties, some of whom, let us remember, have barely left the house in a year, the vast majority of people cannot wait to get back to normal. It is different to last year.
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
Sometimes the public need to be educated, not pandered too. The public have been scared witless by Govt for a year. It is disgusting.
Just for accuracy by all four nations and the fact is Sturgeon and Drakeford want a zero covid policy
I really hate the smell of weed. I'm not sure if this is compounded by me not being fond of flagrant low level law-breaking, or just because it does smell of actual shit.
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
Sometimes the public need to be educated, not pandered too. The public have been scared witless by Govt for a year. It is disgusting.
Just for accuracy by all four nations and the fact is Sturgeon and Drakeford want a zero covid policy
That is why I said 'Govt' - the councils have been just as complicit. Scary posters everywhere.
It has been a poor example of statescraft from all quarters.
Well, that was the impression I'd got. How would you see it working?
I suspect it will be venue and business led.
Want to get into our shop/venue you need to show that you've been vaccinated or have a medical exemption.
I suspect venues will want to show they are safe, people will be a slightly hesitant at the start, remember during the ending of the first lockdown the government had to bribe people to go to restaurants.
To get the economy going there will be some support from the government to help businesses to let in only the vaccinated.
I'm sure the incel squad, sorry Covid Research Group, will put a sunset clause on the government support of this.
Then businesses that implement it will be boycotted. Where I live there was a pub that every few years would go non smoking (prior to the smoking ban) it would only last a few months because by then all the customers had decamped.
Venues that put in vaxports will in my view experience the same. If I am out for the night with a group of friends and they say lets goto bar A and I say I cant no vaxport....we will end up going to bar b instead.
The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
You'd be idiotic to use the app in that case.
Idiotic in what sense?
I know I am of no interest whatsoever to this or any future democratic government. I pay my taxes and obey the laws. The thought they would put any effort into tracking me is ludicrous. In any event, if they were that interested they can already track my car through number plate recognition and get my mobile phone records.
That's the most naïve view I've seen here in a while. The whole nothing to fear argument is hugely discredited and police states are founded on the principle.
Not allowing a vaccine passport isn't going to prevent a future totalitarian government, any more than having a vaccine passport is going to lead to one.
We need to concentrate on electing MPs and governments who believe in freedom, fairness of opportunity, and the democratic process. We might start by kicking out one that feels it's fine for lots of contracts to go to their mates and schoolchums without due process.
The issue is that the government is proposing a mass tracking system under the guise or a vaccine passport. It doesn't need to. It is using this opportunity to normalise the behaviour of checking into venues and ensuring the state knows where you are at all times. As I said, you may be comfortable with that, I'm not.
Do you have an Oyster card?
Of course, they still didn't know I was going to the pub and even that information requires a warrant becuase Oyster is a private company and its data isn't held by the state.
I'm surprised that you're so willing to throw away your hard won judicial protections and due process under the guise of "saving the NHS" after that's already been achieved.
Vaccine passports for international travel, sure. A non-biometric physical card for domestic use that has a six month or year time limit, sure. An app that requires check-ins and entry scans at all venues? Get tae fuck.
I'm not, sadly I'm resigned to this government doing this and how they will try and justify it, I'm pointing out all the warning signs were there when they went for the Henry VIII powers during Brexit.
As Matt Singh has pointed out during the pandemic one of the many consistent things during pandemic polling is this
The chances of this government coming up with a working system are tiny.
(Besides- the time window between now and immunity by vaccination is probably even shorter than you think. We all underestimate the power of a whooshing graph.)
Yup, we can relax if Dido Harding is put in charge of vaccine passports, we should have concerns if Kate Bingham is in charge of it.
Thanks to @Big_G_NorthWales for mentioning that the Scottish leaders debate was on. I'd have missed it otherwise. My thoughts.
I was impressed with the Green leader, Slater, which probably doesn't surprise many given my predisposition, but there have been times when I've willed a Green politician to do well in debates, and they've really bombed. I felt she gave a good impression of having a series of good ideas to implement, and was most focused on policy.
At first I was quite disappointed with Sarwar, who seemed to be big on vague platitudes, but he had a good section where he talked a bit more specifics on the NHS.
Sturgeon has decided to frame the election as Scotland v Boris. It's possible that every mention of "Boris Johnson" was worth a percentage point on the SNP vote.
There were several times when Rennie used the exact same phrases that had just been used by Sarwar. It was uncanny. I felt sure he was about to say "I agree with Anas", at some point, but it didn't quite come.
Ross had a dodgy moment when he wasn't able to say when he thought we should stop extracting oil from the North Sea, but it was right at the end that he really messed it up by deploying his prepared attack line against Labour in the worst possible circumstances, in response to a softball question on keeping debate respectful. What a twit.
A bit depressing that there was zero mention of the Salmond scandal, and the questions of whether there was interference in the legal process, respecting the independence of the civil service, the rule of law, etc. In particular I think it was a missed opportunity not to have mentioned it right at the start when the BBC introduced the concept of trust in the opening question. Can you really trust the SNP with the rule of law?
I was wondering whether Sarwar would give me a reason to vote Labour instead of Green, but he didn't really do so. Slater is standing in my constituency and it would be daft not to give her both my votes, even if I do disagree strongly on the Union.
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
If they are its because they have been duped into believing it is essential to allow the opening up of public places.
Throughout covid the public have shown just how risk averse they are and it remains the case even though we are being vaccinated
The idea that HMG will use it for tracking citizens going about their lawful business is paranoid conspiracy theorists voodoo. There are just too many citizens to track for one thing.
A bigger concern is the potential disenfranchisement of the old, the poor, and the vulnerable who for whatever reason have not been smartphone adopters. Yes, there will be paper-based alternatives but these are almost bound to put those reliant on them at some form of a disadvantage.
That should be the concern, not the 'big brother' issue.
If they are paper based they will be forgeable and you will find them on ebay
Like driving licences?
Licences for driving haven't been paper based for a couple of decades.....mine still is as never had to send it off so still got the old paper one and yes they were forged in their time
Tories about to make a massive mistake imho.
Brexit/Reform Party have no traction because there is no big issue to peel off pissed off voters from Johnson. Brexit done etc.
But covid vaccine app/passport will instantly create a new issue. Tice already tweeting recent clips of Gove saying it wont happen even though rumours are that it will now.
I'd like to see some opinion polls on the topic. I suspect it's a very minority interest. Most people will either shrug and comply or indeed actively welcome vaccine passports imo.
Yes, agreed. See the reaction to lockdown. Most people either agreed with it or wanted more SEVERE lockdown, not less.
Vaccine passports will enable something like "normal" life to resume quicker than it would otherwise. This will be the case for a year or two, then we can get rid of them. Like ID cards in WW2
Fervent opposition to Vaxports will be a niche interest, comprising less than 10% of the country. Maybe less than 5%. Like anti-vaxxery. I cannot see any major party taking up the cause
Last poll is about 30 odd percent opposed. If they impose vaxports my money will be staying in my pocket not being spent in venues I wont visit because they have to vaxport.
Good luck with those businesses getting back on their feet if that 30% do the same thing. That also assumes that the 30% objecting aren't the same 30% that was the number of people visiting bars and restaurants in the first place
Link?
I'd be surprised if this "opposition" to vaxports is any firmer than Somerset snow in April
It was posted a couple of days ago on pb, didnt note the link sure you can google it
It is customary on PB for notable claims to be notably evidenced. Like someone claiming they speak a long dead language, descended through the mother tongue via their family, against all known laws of linguistics.
Why do we need a covid status app when by the time it is up and running the vast majority of people will have been vaccinated?
Just in case the herd immunity level is 98%?
You catch on well, my friend
It is still my hope that this chatter about it is all a load of guff dreamed up by the Spi-B committee to nudge people into taking a vaccine.
However with my party activist hat on I am incensed. Frankly it makes me sick that the party which I work so hard for and donate significant amounts of money and time to can even contemplate such illiberal policies.
Think back to your early teachings. All those who gain power are afraid to lose it, even the Tories!
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
Sometimes the public need to be educated, not pandered too. The public have been scared witless by Govt for a year. It is disgusting.
Just for accuracy by all four nations and the fact is Sturgeon and Drakeford want a zero covid policy
That is why I said 'Govt' - the councils have been just as complicit. Scary posters everywhere.
It has been a poor example of statescraft from all quarters.
I'm getting somewhat annoyed by the current line that "what happens in the EU will wash up on our shores".
Which completely ignores the facts that
1) it is the UK variant currently washing up on EU shores not the other way around 2) the whole point of vaccination is that the current problems in the EU should NOT impact significantly here. Otherwise why are we trumpeting how far ahead we are in vaccinating the population?
Well, that was the impression I'd got. How would you see it working?
I suspect it will be venue and business led.
Want to get into our shop/venue you need to show that you've been vaccinated or have a medical exemption.
I suspect venues will want to show they are safe, people will be a slightly hesitant at the start, remember during the ending of the first lockdown the government had to bribe people to go to restaurants.
To get the economy going there will be some support from the government to help businesses to let in only the vaccinated.
I'm sure the incel squad, sorry Covid Research Group, will put a sunset clause on the government support of this.
Then businesses that implement it will be boycotted. Where I live there was a pub that every few years would go non smoking (prior to the smoking ban) it would only last a few months because by then all the customers had decamped.
Venues that put in vaxports will in my view experience the same. If I am out for the night with a group of friends and they say lets goto bar A and I say I cant no vaxport....we will end up going to bar b instead.
Which is why the Government will make it mandatory. With public support.
Well, that was the impression I'd got. How would you see it working?
I suspect it will be venue and business led.
Want to get into our shop/venue you need to show that you've been vaccinated or have a medical exemption.
I suspect venues will want to show they are safe, people will be a slightly hesitant at the start, remember during the ending of the first lockdown the government had to bribe people to go to restaurants.
To get the economy going there will be some support from the government to help businesses to let in only the vaccinated.
I'm sure the incel squad, sorry Covid Research Group, will put a sunset clause on the government support of this.
Have you tried to book anywhere nice recently? Its almost impossible.
The public are aching to get back to normal. Barring a few 'better stay in the jungle in case the war isn't really over' fearties, some of whom, let us remember, have barely left the house in a year, the vast majority of people cannot wait to get back to normal. It is different to last year.
Indeed. I was amazed to discover recently that I was unable to get a table at J. Sheekey on a Thursday in June!
Also polls of the public should be controlled for those who would normally do those activities. I’m not clear why the opinions of those who never normally visit pubs are at all relevant to the formation of hospitality policy... ditto gyms, schools, spectator sports...
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
Sometimes the public need to be educated, not pandered too. The public have been scared witless by Govt for a year. It is disgusting.
Just for accuracy by all four nations and the fact is Sturgeon and Drakeford want a zero covid policy
That is why I said 'Govt' - the councils have been just as complicit. Scary posters everywhere.
It has been a poor example of statescraft from all quarters.
I'm getting somewhat annoyed by the current line that "what happens in the EU will wash up on our shores".
Which completely ignores the facts that
1) it is the UK variant currently washing up on EU shores not the other way around 2) the whole point of vaccination is that the current problems in the EU should NOT impact significantly here. Otherwise why are we trumpeting how far ahead we are in vaccinating the population?
1) Wasn't it more: a variant first detected in the UK because we have better detection?
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
Sometimes the public need to be educated, not pandered too. The public have been scared witless by Govt for a year. It is disgusting.
Just for accuracy by all four nations and the fact is Sturgeon and Drakeford want a zero covid policy
That is why I said 'Govt' - the councils have been just as complicit. Scary posters everywhere.
It has been a poor example of statescraft from all quarters.
I'm getting somewhat annoyed by the current line that "what happens in the EU will wash up on our shores".
Which completely ignores the facts that
1) it is the UK variant currently washing up on EU shores not the other way around 2) the whole point of vaccination is that the current problems in the EU should NOT impact significantly here. Otherwise why are we trumpeting how far ahead we are in vaccinating the population?
ECB ponders Covid passports to get fans back into grounds for championship
ECB exploring all possibilities for spectators to return
New season will begin without fans on 8 April
As the county season prepares to burst into life on 8 April with the first round of Championship matches, the ECB revealed that it is pondering the use of Covid passports once crowds are again allowed into grounds.
Games will be played in front of empty stands until at least 17 May, when venues will be allowed to fill up to 25% capacity. The ECB is then exploring all possibilities to allow as many people through the turnstiles as possible once most restrictions are lifted, in theory, on 21 June – though much will depend on government guidance and the needs of different local authorities.
“There has been a lot of talk,” said Neil Snowball, the ECB’s managing director of county cricket. “We have gone from no passports to suddenly now looking at a Covid certification. We will explore anything that enables us to get our members back and our spectators back. At the moment it looks like that might happen.
“If you look at 21 June, it is going to be a question of balancing three things. One, if there is going to be some sort of passport or Covid certification, second is testing, third is some sort of social distancing – and we have said we will do whatever we are asked to do to make sure we can get the maximum number of people back.
“The ideal would be some sort of certification with an element of social distancing and probably wearing masks.”
The idea that vaccine passports have any role to play in allowing spectators into County cricket matches just shows to some extent how there is a danger that "passport" serving wider Government purposes become a solution to a non-existent problem. If the Government decrees that spectators at county cricket matches represents a "covid problem" then frankly they shouldn't be opening anything up. I spent all afternoon, at a time when we've barely opened up at all, outside in an environment that was far more "relatively" dangerous than anything you would encounter at a County cricket match.
The issue is that the Government gets to decide what is a Covid problem, so gets to "encourage" passports as a solution.
If a stadium feels confident letting 20,000 spectators in with a passport scheme, but doesn't without, then why shouldn't they have the choice?
So long as it's their choice not a requirement.
I understand your basic position. But i think you are being very naive about the idea that this idea is being pushed by the Government as a "voluntary" option for businesses. Even if it is voluntary on paper, it will be de facto compulsory for any businesses wanting to open up properly. I don't believe that any business will opt in to such a scheme unless forced to and/or majorly incentivised to do so.
I don't remotely think its a case of "customer confidence". It's simply that the Government will impose conditions unless you opt in. Young people don't care. Older people are vaccinated and feel safe. Those that might be reluctant will be vastly dwarfed by those who are keen. And enforcement will come with a major cost to business, so very few will go for it voluntarily.
I'm operating under the assumption that all government restrictions on Covid expire 21/6 in which case this isn't done by compulsion.
You're right that there needs to be an incentive to do it but in a free market incentives don't come from the state, they come from customers.
Businesses advertising that they are doing passports for entry to boost security may be popular with some customers, while unpopular with others.
So if some premises choose to require this, while others choose not to, and the customers are free to choose which they prefer, then that is the free market in action.
The problem isn't the certificate, it's that the government are doing it with a tracking app and database. It's a police state measure.
There'll also be a paper option in the article I read over the weekend.
The piece of paper will probably have a barcode or QR on it that you have to use to log in to some sort kind of system, which will therefore be almost as effective a tracking tool as an app. Although frankly, what concerns me most is that this is all being used as the back door to bringing in a biometric ID card system, which we'll all end up needing for all sorts of things, be required by law to carry, that the police and any number of other state busybodies will be permitted to demand to see, and which we'll be saddled with forever.
That's my concern as well however we already have a de facto ID card, the driving license.
Nope mine is still paper never updated it as no longer own a car
If you avoid having a mobile phone too, and give up withdrawing cash or using payment cards you can really go off the radar and get one over on HMG!
I have a mobile phone but it never leaves my home, and yes I pay pretty much cash for everything and I only get cash from one cashpoint. I don't drive, I don't use facebook, twitter, linked in, loyalty card. I don't have a credit card
Yeh, but you post on PB so The State is all over you as this site is monitored by The Man.
Yes I post here, however for most websites I visit I use tor. I don't claim I have no footprint I merely claim I limit it as much as I can
"The bulk of the funding for Tor's development has come from the federal government of the United States, initially through the Office of Naval Research and DARPA."
And the code is open source and has been checked by a lot of clued in people, worst they can do is operate a few exit nodes and it takes a huge effort to hook traffic to one user so your point is?
My point is that I do not think I am interesting enough for anyone to be arsed to track me, with or without tor.
Well you probably aren't. Then however one of your casual contacts does something and suddenly they are interested and start poking through your life because you had contact with someone.
I speak as someone who is pretty sure there phone was bugged at on point in the 90's. Had a landline and an extension.....main phone didnt ring only the extension picked it up and got greeted with "hello operations" in other words someone fucked up their end
Are you really surprised given what you were up to?
ECB ponders Covid passports to get fans back into grounds for championship
ECB exploring all possibilities for spectators to return
New season will begin without fans on 8 April
As the county season prepares to burst into life on 8 April with the first round of Championship matches, the ECB revealed that it is pondering the use of Covid passports once crowds are again allowed into grounds.
Games will be played in front of empty stands until at least 17 May, when venues will be allowed to fill up to 25% capacity. The ECB is then exploring all possibilities to allow as many people through the turnstiles as possible once most restrictions are lifted, in theory, on 21 June – though much will depend on government guidance and the needs of different local authorities.
“There has been a lot of talk,” said Neil Snowball, the ECB’s managing director of county cricket. “We have gone from no passports to suddenly now looking at a Covid certification. We will explore anything that enables us to get our members back and our spectators back. At the moment it looks like that might happen.
“If you look at 21 June, it is going to be a question of balancing three things. One, if there is going to be some sort of passport or Covid certification, second is testing, third is some sort of social distancing – and we have said we will do whatever we are asked to do to make sure we can get the maximum number of people back.
“The ideal would be some sort of certification with an element of social distancing and probably wearing masks.”
The idea that vaccine passports have any role to play in allowing spectators into County cricket matches just shows to some extent how there is a danger that "passport" serving wider Government purposes become a solution to a non-existent problem. If the Government decrees that spectators at county cricket matches represents a "covid problem" then frankly they shouldn't be opening anything up. I spent all afternoon, at a time when we've barely opened up at all, outside in an environment that was far more "relatively" dangerous than anything you would encounter at a County cricket match.
The issue is that the Government gets to decide what is a Covid problem, so gets to "encourage" passports as a solution.
If a stadium feels confident letting 20,000 spectators in with a passport scheme, but doesn't without, then why shouldn't they have the choice?
So long as it's their choice not a requirement.
I understand your basic position. But i think you are being very naive about the idea that this idea is being pushed by the Government as a "voluntary" option for businesses. Even if it is voluntary on paper, it will be de facto compulsory for any businesses wanting to open up properly. I don't believe that any business will opt in to such a scheme unless forced to and/or majorly incentivised to do so.
I don't remotely think its a case of "customer confidence". It's simply that the Government will impose conditions unless you opt in. Young people don't care. Older people are vaccinated and feel safe. Those that might be reluctant will be vastly dwarfed by those who are keen. And enforcement will come with a major cost to business, so very few will go for it voluntarily.
I'm operating under the assumption that all government restrictions on Covid expire 21/6 in which case this isn't done by compulsion.
You're right that there needs to be an incentive to do it but in a free market incentives don't come from the state, they come from customers.
Businesses advertising that they are doing passports for entry to boost security may be popular with some customers, while unpopular with others.
So if some premises choose to require this, while others choose not to, and the customers are free to choose which they prefer, then that is the free market in action.
Absolutely. But i think the number of businesses pursuing this without de facto compulsion from the Government will be miniscule. There is little evidence that i can see of customer hesitancy that is potentially damaging to businesses. (One only has to look at the evidence cited above of how difficult it is to book any venues for weeks or months). And nowhere near enough to justify the costs of enforcement that it would involve. (For example, a pub with multiple entrances would have to lock most of them (possibly against fire regulations) or put a staff member on every door).
So i can only see the incentive for businesses being if the Government actually incentivises their introduction. By penalising those who opt out.
Dougal Ross spectacularly failing to win hearts and minds in the debate tonight, consensus that the Scots Tories have managed to find someone even more unlikeable than Jackson Carlaw.
I watched it and agree Ross was poor but Anas Sarwar was miles ahead and Sturgeon was on the defensive throughout, no more so than on independence which was not at all popular with the audience
Our World In Data has added a graph for the share of people with at least one dose. We're not far behind the epidemiological position of Israel.
Also we are past the point that Israel lifted lockdown, which was on 4 February from memory.
I stand by my prediction that the next few months will see immense pressure to speed up reopening. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few letters to Sir Graham publicly renouncing confidence unless lockdown is lifted sooner.
If the Govt. are stupid enough to even think about introducing vaxports for domestic use, the backbenches will rightly go crazy.
You've been saying that for most of lockdown, no one has gone public in that time.
If you think Steve Baker is going to allow Vaxports to happen to appease a few fearties who don't understand basic concepts of epidemiology, I have a bridge to sell you.
The problem is Labour. The numbers aren't there on the Tory benches to get this through but Keith is a complete chump who will blindly vote in favour of whatever Boris and the health bods controlling his puppet strings come up with.
Indeed. I am seriously impressed with the Libs over this. It will encourage about another 25 Tory backbenchers to rebel, I suspect.
But as you say the problem is Labour. Least useful opposition I can remember.
And of course as has been said public opinion will be in favour
Sometimes the public need to be educated, not pandered too. The public have been scared witless by Govt for a year. It is disgusting.
Just for accuracy by all four nations and the fact is Sturgeon and Drakeford want a zero covid policy
That is why I said 'Govt' - the councils have been just as complicit. Scary posters everywhere.
It has been a poor example of statescraft from all quarters.
I'm getting somewhat annoyed by the current line that "what happens in the EU will wash up on our shores".
Which completely ignores the facts that
1) it is the UK variant currently washing up on EU shores not the other way around 2) the whole point of vaccination is that the current problems in the EU should NOT impact significantly here. Otherwise why are we trumpeting how far ahead we are in vaccinating the population?
I’m collecting annoying Covid phrases:
“No earlier than...”
“Wash up on our shores...”
“Caution is advised...”
“Data not dates...”
“New normal...”
I've noticed this forum is very quick to pick up on memetic turns of phrase. If someone disagrees with you, they're "foaming", for example, which is the kind of description I wouldn't be shocked to hear IRL, but has become a meme here and is used far beyond what you'd normally expect.
Comments
I'd guess most theatres and all airlines will welcome them, to rescue their collapsing industries, in the short term. Many pubs, perhaps, with a mainly younger clientele, will say No. And that is their right
Do you object to this?
The chances of this government coming up with a working system are tiny.
(Besides- the time window between now and immunity by vaccination is probably even shorter than you think. We all underestimate the power of a whooshing graph.)
Social contact
By Step 4 which will take place no earlier than 21 June, the government hopes to be in a position to remove all legal limits on social contact.
Business, activities and events
We hope to reopen remaining premises, including nightclubs, and ease the restrictions on large events and performances that apply in Step 3. This will be subject to the results of a scientific Events Research Programme to test the outcome of certain pilot events through the spring and summer, where we will trial the use of testing and other techniques to cut the risk of infection. The same Events Research Programme will guide decisions on whether all limits can be removed on weddings and other life events.
1. "remove all legal limits on social contact" - could be interpreted as 'you can meet up with your mates, but other people in a great big crowd, or on a bus or a train, that you don't know don't count' and consequently shitty masks and distancing can still be argued to be applicable
2. "ease the restrictions on large events and performances" - expressly doesn't say remove, which implies that they're likely already intending to keep at least some of the biosecurity apparatus in place. Then goes on to talk about the Events Research Programme, testing, other techniques, "whether all limits can be removed," etc. - basically that, again, could mean that we're stuck with evil rules everywhere, depending on what the most terrified scientists and the most authoritarian ministers want to impose
3. In any event, the whole thing talks repeatedly about what they "hope" to do rather than what they will do, which is a generalised get out of jail free card for everything
We may be rid of restrictions by the end of June. We might have to wait until next Spring. They might try to keep some of them in place forever. Who knows? The roadmap is essentially meaningless waffle on this point, although FWIW anybody who entirely trusts what Boris Johnson says about any subject needs their head examining, anyway.
I am not fine if the only way to live a normal life post june is to show my papers everywhere because some idiot makes it mandatory
Want to get into our shop/venue you need to show that you've been vaccinated or have a medical exemption.
I suspect venues will want to show they are safe, people will be a slightly hesitant at the start, remember during the ending of the first lockdown the government had to bribe people to go to restaurants.
To get the economy going there will be some support from the government to help businesses to let in only the vaccinated.
I'm sure the incel squad, sorry Covid Research Group, will put a sunset clause on the government support of this.
The results, by research company J.L. Partners, suggest Labour have seen a decline since November 2020, with its six point advantage turning into a four point Tory lead.
It shows leadership has been a key driver in the turnaround in both parties’ standing.
Sir Keir Starmer has fallen into negative territory, going from +7% to -3%.
Boris Johnson has switched from a net positivity rating of -2% to +7%.”
https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-poll-shows-conservative-lead-in-red-wall-seats
And not a vaccine passport in sight.
Just like everyone was in favour of strict lockdowns, but most believe that the strict rules didn't really apply to them because they were responsible individuals who could be trusted to exhibit basic common sense when defying the letter of the rules.
Vaccine passports will be popular because the Government will market them as the key to doing things that you otherwise couldn't do. Not a business option for staff who choose to implement them to make themselves attractive to customers.
The public are aching to get back to normal. Barring a few 'better stay in the jungle in case the war isn't really over' fearties, some of whom, let us remember, have barely left the house in a year, the vast majority of people cannot wait to get back to normal. It is different to last year.
It has been a poor example of statescraft from all quarters.
Venues that put in vaxports will in my view experience the same. If I am out for the night with a group of friends and they say lets goto bar A and I say I cant no vaxport....we will end up going to bar b instead.
The Nazi virus has been driven out. The Vaccine of the Allies has won. And Boris de Gaulle parades down Parkway.
NEW THREAD
I was impressed with the Green leader, Slater, which probably doesn't surprise many given my predisposition, but there have been times when I've willed a Green politician to do well in debates, and they've really bombed. I felt she gave a good impression of having a series of good ideas to implement, and was most focused on policy.
At first I was quite disappointed with Sarwar, who seemed to be big on vague platitudes, but he had a good section where he talked a bit more specifics on the NHS.
Sturgeon has decided to frame the election as Scotland v Boris. It's possible that every mention of "Boris Johnson" was worth a percentage point on the SNP vote.
There were several times when Rennie used the exact same phrases that had just been used by Sarwar. It was uncanny. I felt sure he was about to say "I agree with Anas", at some point, but it didn't quite come.
Ross had a dodgy moment when he wasn't able to say when he thought we should stop extracting oil from the North Sea, but it was right at the end that he really messed it up by deploying his prepared attack line against Labour in the worst possible circumstances, in response to a softball question on keeping debate respectful. What a twit.
A bit depressing that there was zero mention of the Salmond scandal, and the questions of whether there was interference in the legal process, respecting the independence of the civil service, the rule of law, etc. In particular I think it was a missed opportunity not to have mentioned it right at the start when the BBC introduced the concept of trust in the opening question. Can you really trust the SNP with the rule of law?
I was wondering whether Sarwar would give me a reason to vote Labour instead of Green, but he didn't really do so. Slater is standing in my constituency and it would be daft not to give her both my votes, even if I do disagree strongly on the Union.
Yeah. They all look well terrified.
That seems credible.
The DK's of both flavours will just go 'meh' and comply if the passports are required.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/travel/survey-results/daily/2021/02/24/91a0e/2
Which completely ignores the facts that
1) it is the UK variant currently washing up on EU shores not the other way around
2) the whole point of vaccination is that the current problems in the EU should NOT impact significantly here. Otherwise why are we trumpeting how far ahead we are in vaccinating the population?
Also polls of the public should be controlled for those who would normally do those activities. I’m not clear why the opinions of those who never normally visit pubs are at all relevant to the formation of hospitality policy... ditto gyms, schools, spectator sports...
“No earlier than...”
“Wash up on our shores...”
“Caution is advised...”
“Data not dates...”
“New normal...”
You're right that there needs to be an incentive to do it but in a free market incentives don't come from the state, they come from customers.
Businesses advertising that they are doing passports for entry to boost security may be popular with some customers, while unpopular with others.
So if some premises choose to require this, while others choose not to, and the customers are free to choose which they prefer, then that is the free market in action.
So i can only see the incentive for businesses being if the Government actually incentivises their introduction. By penalising those who opt out.