AIUI is not a large facility at all. This is it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391335/Factory-heart-EU-row-supplied-us.html It produced stuff which was needed when AZ was being tested. It is not approved for the manufacture of vaccine by either the EU or indeed the UK. We have apparently received some vaccine from there but its use is not yet approved in the UK either.
Which seems on the face of it to make this all rather ridiculous. The EU cannot "steal" our vaccine because it is not authorised for use. Given the lack of authorisation it is not obvious how we can use it to meet our forthcoming shortfall either. Its also a vaccine on which the EU are not very keen and of which they seem to have fairly significant stocks. All very odd.
What the EU are doing is destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation for no obvious benefit whatsoever. It is truly bizarre. Are there no adults left in the room at all?
That sounds as though there's no point in UK engaging in negotiations that lead to concessions in order to stop the EU blocking it, then.
AIUI is not a large facility at all. This is it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391335/Factory-heart-EU-row-supplied-us.html It produced stuff which was needed when AZ was being tested. It is not approved for the manufacture of vaccine by either the EU or indeed the UK. We have apparently received some vaccine from there but its use is not yet approved in the UK either.
Which seems on the face of it to make this all rather ridiculous. The EU cannot "steal" our vaccine because it is not authorised for use. Given the lack of authorisation it is not obvious how we can use it to meet our forthcoming shortfall either. Its also a vaccine on which the EU are not very keen and of which they seem to have fairly significant stocks. All very odd.
What the EU are doing is destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation for no obvious benefit whatsoever. It is truly bizarre. Are there no adults left in the room at all?
There are destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation as the other option is to admit that the EU has screwed up the purchasing of vaccines so as the UK starts to return to normal vast parts of the EU are going to implementing their third (or even fourth) lockdown.
But that is really my point. I don't see how vaccine from an unauthorised source not being available is going to either slow us down or speed them up. Its just pointless.
It's not pointless if the other option is copping the blame for screwing up the purchase of vaccines to the extent that the large parts of the EU are under lockdown for another 3 months.
Given the option of saying - oops we screwed up or blaming AZ and the UK for not providing vaccines that were "promised" what else would you expect a politician to do beyond.
I could see that if it was going to work; if they could steal enough vaccine from us to allow them to speed up their programs and end lockdown and death earlier. This won't work. At all.
On topic. I'd say that to maximize its chances of achieving change a protest movement here in Britain needs to cause serious disruption to the status quo over a prolonged period, yet at the same time not forfeit popular sympathy and bolster support for the authorities by tipping into gratuitous violence. XR were doing ok, imo, pre pandemic.
XR wenr from being viewed as cheerful scamps articulating a valid concern to being viewed as extremist lunatics and troublemakers. I wouldn't be surprised if people are actually less sympathetic to the environmental cause as a result.
A rather patronising header. It all depends what the objective of the protest is. According to your analysis the 1,000,000 plus who demonstated against the Iraq invasion should have been one of the most successful ever. In fact it achieved nothing. Historically the more havoc the protesters wreak the more successful the action. Protest works when the authorities are goaded into violent counter measures.
And yet the dozens and hundreds of identitkit 'protests' with the same people, same banners, same revolutionary zeal, achieve nothing as well no matter that they seek to 'goad' the authorities. You also seem very confident that protestors weaking havoc will lead to success, when a counter reaction seems at least as likely if not more so.
Do you think someone taking a crap in front of a police officer and smashing up a police sation has made it more likely that the police will be held accountable for their actions or the government to rein in its authoritarian plans? Or will some of the people who were against the plans find it harder to sway more to their side?
I think the point about lack of success of many, nay, most peaceful protests is true, but perennial protestors who do the same shouting slogans and petty criminal damage at every protest they can latch onto don't help the causes they purport to care about. They only care about themselves, about venting their anger or pushing other aims.
Did I read that Labour abstained on the Sturgeon vote? SLAB obviously taking its lead from Starmer.
Don't think so, Starmer was shooting his mouth off about how Sturgeon should resign even if she had unknowingly broken the ministerial code just a few days ago. Sarwar has wisely decided that with the SCons being the petty, vindictive small people consumed with hatred of the EssEnnPee in the room, he might as well gain some credibility by showing a hint of pragmatic principle (or more cynically that he realised that the whole 'get Nippy' thing had turned into a clown car crash). I'm sticking with my prediction of SLab ousting the SCons as second party in May.
Though a gloomy performance by the deputy leader of Scottish Labour on Ch4 News last night. She was asked why she was asking for Nicola's resignation before the judgement? She just mumbled about some irrelevant detail on page 457. It would never look good for political leaders-particularly female ones- to line up behind a known woman botherer. It's difficult to believe Ruth Davidson was once talked about as a potential Tory PM. She's a clown. I'd describe it as a rout by Nicola. Can she ever have looked more powerful?
On topic. I'd say that to maximize its chances of achieving change a protest movement here in Britain needs to cause serious disruption to the status quo over a prolonged period, yet at the same time not forfeit popular sympathy and bolster support for the authorities by tipping into gratuitous violence. XR were doing ok, imo, pre pandemic.
XR wenr from being viewed as cheerful scamps articulating a valid concern to being viewed as extremist lunatics and troublemakers. I wouldn't be surprised if people are actually less sympathetic to the environmental cause as a result.
I'm not convinced they've crossed over so completely for everyone just yet. They were certainly very successful in grabbing attention and being persistent and even getting some action taken, in some local areas certainly. In some areas they still are. But there is a danger and they are closer to the line than they were.
Breaking: The Duke of Sussex has joined Silicon Valley startup BetterUp as its chief impact officer, the company told CNN Business on Tuesday. A spokesperson for Harry also confirmed the prince's new role.
BetterUp provides coaching and mental health services to clients. The company's website lists Harry as part of its leadership team, describing him as a "humanitarian, military veteran, mental wellness advocate, and environmentalist."
All very sensible stuff. It just strikes me how much easier it is to recall unsuccessful protests than successful ones. Are there some good recent examples of how following these principles can "change a government’s intended actions or leads it to do something it might not otherwise have done"?
I can think of, off the top of my head, Joanna Lumley and justice for Ghurkas, and (arguably) the fuel tax protests. Maybe a select few of the strike actions, like the firefighters' one.
Foxhunting, the Iraq War, anti-Brexit - I would say all of those had huge support and followed all those rules, more-or-less. All failed totally.
Your reference to Joanna Lumley and the Ghurkas suggests another item for Cyclefree's list - a cause which is not selfish, but is for either the greater good, or for the good of someone other than the protester - a group that is unable to represent itself fairly. Protests on behalf of children, or the mentally handicapped, etc... would fall into this category too.
Possibly; that's a more charitable view of the world than mine. I was wondering if it hinted to the need to have your campaign fronted by a National Treasure (TM).
All of this could be solved with one phone call between Biden, Kamala, Boris and Angela. It must be sorted, and it will be. I think intellectual paralysis has afflicted our continental friends, but it will pass.
I think the idea it could be solved with a phone call is flawed, because it isn't a personality issue that is causing this, nor is it one solved with a quick decision those personalities could resolve. The pressure on the EU side is broader than that, pushing on all the leaders, so Merkel cannot simply fix it. Indeed, she seems to have been a big part of letting things get to this point, by action or inaction.
"This is perhaps the most uncomfortable aspect of the new legislation: that the government isn’t just trying to control who comes into the country, but extending its control over who goes out. If other countries are accepting of visitors, for any variety of reasons, it seems a much deeper infringement on personal liberty that the UK government would stop people from leaving."
Not having had the vaccine, I am not expecting to be allowed abroad, or in pubs or restaurants, or football matches, or even my place of work as a result.
That's my fault. I may or may not be a stupid idiot for acting like that. And at some juncture it may well occur to me I am a stupid idiot, and I will get the vaccine.
But the rest of you should be effing furious. You locked down. You got the vaccine when asked. You played ball. YO You are still in prison.
And relying on the people who put you in prison, to get you out of prison. After they reneged on a bucket of other promises.
I still don't understand why you didn't get the vaccine when offered it? It makes no sense whatsoever.
I don't think the US are going to be able to stop this pipeline.
What right do they have to stop the pipeline? Why is it any of their business?
Of course it is disappointing that the EU wants to increase its dependence on Russian fuel and limit its freedom of maneuver vis a vis Russia going forward but that is an EU decision. America should reflect on such choices and choose its friends accordingly but they should not be seeking to bully Germany into not completing the pipeline if so minded.
Anyway, sorry, wrote this for PT. Too late. Stick it here instead. No harm.
We've seen a strong turnout by the liberty gang on PB today and it got me thinking. I’m partial to a bit of the old freedom myself so why am I not a fully paid-up member? Why do I think that although the government has been taking liberties they have not (by and large) been taking liberties?
And the answer is, because apart from on care homes (where the ‘no visits’ policy was imo inhumane) and on household mixing (did we really need micro-managing legislation for this?), I can’t see where the government has been overly gratuitous or heavy-handed. And even on the mixing, the rules were in any case not assiduously policed. I have never felt I couldn’t meet whoever I wanted to. As to the rest. WFH? Surely commonsense. Closing businesses? Had to be done to formalize the financial support. It wouldn’t have been fair to leave shops and hospitality trading with no customers. Masks and social distancing? The bread and butter of virus mitigation.
The big picture is that measures were needed to stop the NHS collapsing and the societal chaos which would have ensued. They were not excessive because the NHS did for a brief time collapse (or as near as makes no difference) in both the first wave and the second, in April last year and January this year. So the response was necessary, QED. Only covid denialists would dispute this. And our PB libertines have only the one covid denialist. The rest aren’t, although one or two have flirted with it. So what’s the beef apart from tonal trivia like “people aren’t moaning about it enough”? Where are we saying freedoms have been seriously curtailed without a clear justification?
Unless there are credible answers to this, I’m going to harbour a suspicion that what we’re seeing is essentially virtue-signalling. A way of saying, “I like freedom more than the average bear”.
Plus soon it’ll be over. The roadmap is going to be met. April 12th is just round the corner and that’s the big one for me. Shops and outdoor pubs and indoor leisure. Can’t wait. Or rather my point is I can. I can wait and I’m really looking forward to it. Then full domestic freedom by the start of summer and foreign holidays by the end of it. Brill.
I just do not feel much of a need for Steve Baker to protect me from tyranny and I don’t totally understand why others do. I'd like to understand but atm I can't.
German hotel owners are unhappy over an extension to measures that bizarrely bar citizens from going on vacation in their own country but allow them to travel abroad.
I don't think the US are going to be able to stop this pipeline.
What right do they have to stop the pipeline? Why is it any of their business?
Of course it is disappointing that the EU wants to increase its dependence on Russian fuel and limit its freedom of maneuver vis a vis Russia going forward but that is an EU decision. America should reflect on such choices and choose its friends accordingly but they should not be seeking to bully Germany into not completing the pipeline if so minded.
Part of the design of the system is to bypass Eastern European countries - so Russia can then turn off gas to the "Near Abroad" without cutting off Germany etc.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
AIUI is not a large facility at all. This is it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391335/Factory-heart-EU-row-supplied-us.html It produced stuff which was needed when AZ was being tested. It is not approved for the manufacture of vaccine by either the EU or indeed the UK. We have apparently received some vaccine from there but its use is not yet approved in the UK either.
Which seems on the face of it to make this all rather ridiculous. The EU cannot "steal" our vaccine because it is not authorised for use. Given the lack of authorisation it is not obvious how we can use it to meet our forthcoming shortfall either. Its also a vaccine on which the EU are not very keen and of which they seem to have fairly significant stocks. All very odd.
What the EU are doing is destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation for no obvious benefit whatsoever. It is truly bizarre. Are there no adults left in the room at all?
There are destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation as the other option is to admit that the EU has screwed up the purchasing of vaccines so as the UK starts to return to normal vast parts of the EU are going to implementing their third (or even fourth) lockdown.
But that is really my point. I don't see how vaccine from an unauthorised source not being available is going to either slow us down or speed them up. Its just pointless.
It's not pointless if the other option is copping the blame for screwing up the purchase of vaccines to the extent that the large parts of the EU are under lockdown for another 3 months.
Given the option of saying - oops we screwed up or blaming AZ and the UK for not providing vaccines that were "promised" what else would you expect a politician to do beyond.
I could see that if it was going to work; if they could steal enough vaccine from us to allow them to speed up their programs and end lockdown and death earlier. This won't work. At all.
It's not about vaccines though - it's a look, squirrel policy.
Politicans care less about policies now so it seems that they adopt most popular ideas before they get to mass protest level. Last ones in the UK to get policy change furthering their aims, probably, the anti-war demos, which did nothing about Iraq but probably held off operations in Syria.
More potential trouble in France: French authorities are investigating the death of a 26-year-old medical student days after he received AstraZeneca’s Covid-19 vaccine, while stressing that no link has been established to the jab.
AIUI is not a large facility at all. This is it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391335/Factory-heart-EU-row-supplied-us.html It produced stuff which was needed when AZ was being tested. It is not approved for the manufacture of vaccine by either the EU or indeed the UK. We have apparently received some vaccine from there but its use is not yet approved in the UK either.
Which seems on the face of it to make this all rather ridiculous. The EU cannot "steal" our vaccine because it is not authorised for use. Given the lack of authorisation it is not obvious how we can use it to meet our forthcoming shortfall either. Its also a vaccine on which the EU are not very keen and of which they seem to have fairly significant stocks. All very odd.
What the EU are doing is destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation for no obvious benefit whatsoever. It is truly bizarre. Are there no adults left in the room at all?
That sounds as though there's no point in UK engaging in negotiations that lead to concessions in order to stop the EU blocking it, then.
Have I misunderstood?
That was my point. One of the reasons that our government may have been somewhat insouciant about this behaviour is that it will make very little difference, if any at all. It would be different if they threatened the Pfizer deliveries of course.
I am starting to think that taking out Paris and Brussels may be an overreaction after all.
On topic. I'd say that to maximize its chances of achieving change a protest movement here in Britain needs to cause serious disruption to the status quo over a prolonged period, yet at the same time not forfeit popular sympathy and bolster support for the authorities by tipping into gratuitous violence. XR were doing ok, imo, pre pandemic.
XR wenr from being viewed as cheerful scamps articulating a valid concern to being viewed as extremist lunatics and troublemakers. I wouldn't be surprised if people are actually less sympathetic to the environmental cause as a result.
I'd agree with that. XR dug up a wildflower meadow in Cambridge as part of the protest against the University investing in oil.
That is right -- they dug up a meadow of beautiful wildflowers in front of Trinity College.
Environmentalism should be the easiest thing in the world to build an inclusive, strong & powerful coalition around.
You just need to harness the kind of interest in nature & the planet that is evident in the viewing figures to David Attenborough's TV series -- together with the Countryside Alliance, the Campaign to Protect Rural England/Wales/Scotland, the NationalTrust, Ramblers' Associations, Angling groups, and so on.
It would perhaps be more middle-of-the-road than an XR protest. But, such a broad coalition is much more likely to effect change.
Instead, XR end up alienating people with protests on trains in East London stopping tired working-class people getting home after work.
On topic. I'd say that to maximize its chances of achieving change a protest movement here in Britain needs to cause serious disruption to the status quo over a prolonged period, yet at the same time not forfeit popular sympathy and bolster support for the authorities by tipping into gratuitous violence. XR were doing ok, imo, pre pandemic.
XR wenr from being viewed as cheerful scamps articulating a valid concern to being viewed as extremist lunatics and troublemakers. I wouldn't be surprised if people are actually less sympathetic to the environmental cause as a result.
Speak for yourself. I always saw the rank and file as option 2 and I never thought the organisers cared about the environment at all.
AIUI is not a large facility at all. This is it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391335/Factory-heart-EU-row-supplied-us.html It produced stuff which was needed when AZ was being tested. It is not approved for the manufacture of vaccine by either the EU or indeed the UK. We have apparently received some vaccine from there but its use is not yet approved in the UK either.
Which seems on the face of it to make this all rather ridiculous. The EU cannot "steal" our vaccine because it is not authorised for use. Given the lack of authorisation it is not obvious how we can use it to meet our forthcoming shortfall either. Its also a vaccine on which the EU are not very keen and of which they seem to have fairly significant stocks. All very odd.
What the EU are doing is destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation for no obvious benefit whatsoever. It is truly bizarre. Are there no adults left in the room at all?
That sounds as though there's no point in UK engaging in negotiations that lead to concessions in order to stop the EU blocking it, then.
Have I misunderstood?
It has at least a couple of lines iirc - one is a 1000 litre whatever-it-is-called, and one is 250 litre one .
That may have been refitted.
EU waving an even bigger rubber stick - they seem to be gearing up to have a go at J&J.
More potential trouble in France: French authorities are investigating the death of a 26-year-old medical student days after he received AstraZeneca’s Covid-19 vaccine, while stressing that no link has been established to the jab.
Off we go again... How long before another domino run of suspensions?
AIUI is not a large facility at all. This is it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391335/Factory-heart-EU-row-supplied-us.html It produced stuff which was needed when AZ was being tested. It is not approved for the manufacture of vaccine by either the EU or indeed the UK. We have apparently received some vaccine from there but its use is not yet approved in the UK either.
Which seems on the face of it to make this all rather ridiculous. The EU cannot "steal" our vaccine because it is not authorised for use. Given the lack of authorisation it is not obvious how we can use it to meet our forthcoming shortfall either. Its also a vaccine on which the EU are not very keen and of which they seem to have fairly significant stocks. All very odd.
What the EU are doing is destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation for no obvious benefit whatsoever. It is truly bizarre. Are there no adults left in the room at all?
There are destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation as the other option is to admit that the EU has screwed up the purchasing of vaccines so as the UK starts to return to normal vast parts of the EU are going to implementing their third (or even fourth) lockdown.
But that is really my point. I don't see how vaccine from an unauthorised source not being available is going to either slow us down or speed them up. Its just pointless.
It's not pointless if the other option is copping the blame for screwing up the purchase of vaccines to the extent that the large parts of the EU are under lockdown for another 3 months.
Given the option of saying - oops we screwed up or blaming AZ and the UK for not providing vaccines that were "promised" what else would you expect a politician to do beyond.
I could see that if it was going to work; if they could steal enough vaccine from us to allow them to speed up their programs and end lockdown and death earlier. This won't work. At all.
It works only to the extent that it distracts attention, not works to the extent of correcting the earlier mistake.
Given there is loads of media coverage of the potential for vaccine trade wars, and not so much about where the EU went wrong last year, then it seems to be working (for the EU's political leaders).
More potential trouble in France: French authorities are investigating the death of a 26-year-old medical student days after he received AstraZeneca’s Covid-19 vaccine, while stressing that no link has been established to the jab.
Off we go again... How long before another domino run of suspensions?
There is nothing as contagious as a vaccine scare story.
AIUI is not a large facility at all. This is it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391335/Factory-heart-EU-row-supplied-us.html It produced stuff which was needed when AZ was being tested. It is not approved for the manufacture of vaccine by either the EU or indeed the UK. We have apparently received some vaccine from there but its use is not yet approved in the UK either.
Which seems on the face of it to make this all rather ridiculous. The EU cannot "steal" our vaccine because it is not authorised for use. Given the lack of authorisation it is not obvious how we can use it to meet our forthcoming shortfall either. Its also a vaccine on which the EU are not very keen and of which they seem to have fairly significant stocks. All very odd.
What the EU are doing is destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation for no obvious benefit whatsoever. It is truly bizarre. Are there no adults left in the room at all?
That sounds as though there's no point in UK engaging in negotiations that lead to concessions in order to stop the EU blocking it, then.
Have I misunderstood?
It has at least a couple of lines iirc - one is a 1000 litre whatever-it-is-called, and one is 250 litre one .
That may have been refitted.
EU waving an even bigger rubber stick - they seem to be gearing up to have a go at J&J.
Anyway, sorry, wrote this for PT. Too late. Stick it here instead. No harm.
We've seen a strong turnout by the liberty gang on PB today and it got me thinking. I’m partial to a bit of the old freedom myself so why am I not a fully paid-up member? Why do I think that although the government has been taking liberties they have not (by and large) been taking liberties?
And the answer is, because apart from on care homes (where the ‘no visits’ policy was imo inhumane) and on household mixing (did we really need micro-managing legislation for this?), I can’t see where the government has been overly gratuitous or heavy-handed. And even on the mixing, the rules were in any case not assiduously policed. I have never felt I couldn’t meet whoever I wanted to. As to the rest. WFH? Surely commonsense. Closing businesses? Had to be done to formalize the financial support. It wouldn’t have been fair to leave shops and hospitality trading with no customers. Masks and social distancing? The bread and butter of virus mitigation.
The big picture is that measures were needed to stop the NHS collapsing and the societal chaos which would have ensued. They were not excessive because the NHS did for a brief time collapse (or as near as makes no difference) in both the first wave and the second, in April last year and January this year. So the response was necessary, QED. Only covid denialists would dispute this. And our PB libertines have only the one covid denialist. The rest aren’t, although one or two have flirted with it. So what’s the beef apart from tonal trivia like “people aren’t moaning about it enough”? Where are we saying freedoms have been seriously curtailed without a clear justification?
Unless there are credible answers to this, I’m going to harbour a suspicion that what we’re seeing is essentially virtue-signalling. A way of saying, “I like freedom more than the average bear”.
Plus soon it’ll be over. The roadmap is going to be met. April 12th is just round the corner and that’s the big one for me. Shops and outdoor pubs and indoor leisure. Can’t wait. Or rather my point is I can. I can wait and I’m really looking forward to it. Then full domestic freedom by the start of summer and foreign holidays by the end of it. Brill.
I just do not feel much of a need for Steve Baker to protect me from tyranny and I don’t totally understand why others do. I'd like to understand but atm I can't.
I'm not sure whether you consider me a PB Libertine (like the branding BTW) but I kinda started this this morning by agreeing with Dan Hodges' tweet that it's a matter of tone. The government cannot and should not be trumpeting its (undeniable) vaccine success while simultaneously reverting to daily earnest "words of caution" that make looking forward to 12 April / 17 May / 21 June feel like the vapid, frivolous act of a cockeyed, optimistic greenhorn.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
Breaking: The Duke of Sussex has joined Silicon Valley startup BetterUp as its chief impact officer, the company told CNN Business on Tuesday. A spokesperson for Harry also confirmed the prince's new role.
BetterUp provides coaching and mental health services to clients. The company's website lists Harry as part of its leadership team, describing him as a "humanitarian, military veteran, mental wellness advocate, and environmentalist."
I know the army love to portray themselves always giving aid etc and never about killing (at least these days) but I always find it hard to reconcile how anyone can be a military veteran and a humanitarian in the same sentence, Almost as absurd as claiming to be a police officer and an anarchist
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
Is it possible to watch the briefings online (I missed it)?
AIUI is not a large facility at all. This is it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391335/Factory-heart-EU-row-supplied-us.html It produced stuff which was needed when AZ was being tested. It is not approved for the manufacture of vaccine by either the EU or indeed the UK. We have apparently received some vaccine from there but its use is not yet approved in the UK either.
Which seems on the face of it to make this all rather ridiculous. The EU cannot "steal" our vaccine because it is not authorised for use. Given the lack of authorisation it is not obvious how we can use it to meet our forthcoming shortfall either. Its also a vaccine on which the EU are not very keen and of which they seem to have fairly significant stocks. All very odd.
What the EU are doing is destroying their reputation as a rules based organisation for no obvious benefit whatsoever. It is truly bizarre. Are there no adults left in the room at all?
That sounds as though there's no point in UK engaging in negotiations that lead to concessions in order to stop the EU blocking it, then.
Have I misunderstood?
That was my point. One of the reasons that our government may have been somewhat insouciant about this behaviour is that it will make very little difference, if any at all. It would be different if they threatened the Pfizer deliveries of course.
I am starting to think that taking out Paris and Brussels may be an overreaction after all.
I agree with this and add the corollary that it isn't worth the EU picking a fight over this small number of doses. If it was lots, it would be different. Principle doesn't really come into any of this. It's about perceptions of self-interest and acting accordingly.
It's been amazing for me to learn that there are apparently a non-trivial number of people who would actually prefer a policy of UK locked down + open borders. These must be people who live in a luxury apartment in Canary Wharf and whose normal travel plans involve going to one of the London airports and flying to another country. They don't usually visit anywhere else in the UK, so this policy would be the one that suits them, and annoys them to have it replaced by no UK lockdown + closed borders, which would be preferred by the overwhelming majority of people.
False dichotomy. Locking down is a choice. Abandoning our very system of living and junking the civil liberties that go with it can only be justified in exceptional circumstances and for a short period of time, i.e. when there is a clear and present danger resulting in health services being under imminent risk of being overwhelmed. If a new virus emerges (which always could have happened and always will be a risk) then we deal with it in this limited manner as-and-when. Not by imagining what might happen. We have to start getting out of this risk-averse unprincipled mindset and giving proper weight to liberty and economic matters.
The trouble is most of the media have been bashing the public for years with the ideas that 1p on fuel duty or VAT on Cornish pasties are apocalyptic impositions, that the public have been conditioned that nothing bad must ever happen.
A rather patronising header. It all depends what the objective of the protest is. According to your analysis the 1,000,000 plus who demonstated against the Iraq invasion should have been one of the most successful ever. In fact it achieved nothing. Historically the more havoc the protesters wreak the more successful the action. Protest works when the authorities are goaded into violent counter measures.
And yet the dozens and hundreds of identitkit 'protests' with the same people, same banners, same revolutionary zeal, achieve nothing as well no matter that they seek to 'goad' the authorities. You also seem very confident that protestors weaking havoc will lead to success, when a counter reaction seems at least as likely if not more so.
Do you think someone taking a crap in front of a police officer and smashing up a police sation has made it more likely that the police will be held accountable for their actions or the government to rein in its authoritarian plans? Or will some of the people who were against the plans find it harder to sway more to their side?
I think the point about lack of success of many, nay, most peaceful protests is true, but perennial protestors who do the same shouting slogans and petty criminal damage at every protest they can latch onto don't help the causes they purport to care about. They only care about themselves, about venting their anger or pushing other aims.
You are doing what cyclefree was doing. Giving her views on the behaviour of the demonstrators. I'm sure most people find burning police vans and taking a crap on a policeman's shoes undesirable but that's not what her header was about. It was about the effectiveness of the action.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
A rather patronising header. It all depends what the objective of the protest is. According to your analysis the 1,000,000 plus who demonstated against the Iraq invasion should have been one of the most successful ever. In fact it achieved nothing. Historically the more havoc the protesters wreak the more successful the action. Protest works when the authorities are goaded into violent counter measures.
And yet the dozens and hundreds of identitkit 'protests' with the same people, same banners, same revolutionary zeal, achieve nothing as well no matter that they seek to 'goad' the authorities. You also seem very confident that protestors weaking havoc will lead to success, when a counter reaction seems at least as likely if not more so.
Do you think someone taking a crap in front of a police officer and smashing up a police sation has made it more likely that the police will be held accountable for their actions or the government to rein in its authoritarian plans? Or will some of the people who were against the plans find it harder to sway more to their side?
I think the point about lack of success of many, nay, most peaceful protests is true, but perennial protestors who do the same shouting slogans and petty criminal damage at every protest they can latch onto don't help the causes they purport to care about. They only care about themselves, about venting their anger or pushing other aims.
You are doing what cyclefree was doing. Giving her views on the behaviour of the demonstrators. I'm sure most people find burning police vans and taking a crap on a policeman's shoes undesirable but that's not what her header was about. It was about the effectiveness of the action.
The Bristol riot is likely to be extremely effective - at getting the Police, Crime, Sentencing, and Courts Bill through Parliament, that is.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
I just hope that we are nearly there and don't start drifting backwards on the unlocking plan. The fact that we're now more than a fortnight on from the schools reopening and there hasn't been a disaster - the case rate per 100k per week is now marginally lower than it was on March 8th - gives cause for a degree of optimism.
More potential trouble in France: French authorities are investigating the death of a 26-year-old medical student days after he received AstraZeneca’s Covid-19 vaccine, while stressing that no link has been established to the jab.
Off we go again... How long before another domino run of suspensions?
There is nothing as contagious as a vaccine scare story.
One thing i still don't get about this who vaccine export ban idea, is exactly what the EU think happens next. Because simply banning exports doesn't get them more vaccine unless the exporting company gives it to them. But they are under no obligation to do so. Even less if it is a company like Pfizer that is actually meeting the delivery targets in its EU contract.
So Pfizer (or whoever) can just sit on the vaccines produced. At which point the EU have to massively escalate even further and actually move towards forced appropriation. Which surely is a route they REALLY don't want to go down?
And then in 6 months time when the UK has become a global superpower in vaccine production - completely self sufficient and then some - and the EU are looking around for winter booster jabs, where are they going to go?
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
I just hope that we are nearly there and don't start drifting backwards on the unlocking plan. The fact that we're now more than a fortnight on from the schools reopening and there hasn't been a disaster - the case rate per 100k per week is now marginally lower than it was on March 8th - gives cause for a degree of optimism.
Things can still go very wrong but I think that today or yesterday the number of deaths dropped below the equivalent day last year and, God willing, they will never go back above.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
I think Contrarian is able to take criticism quite easily/ Most contrarians can ,given by definition almost, they are arguing a minority or at least anti establishment view. Its a lesson the cancel culture movement needs to learn that people can have views totally opposite and they need to be considered otherwise you end up with establishment groupthink (establishment having a wider meaning that just government but also including many "woke" causes )
Seems a bit unlikely. I can't think of too many things that would explain a 7pt swing in one month. More likely two outliers at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
Exactly this. By the way, here’s a possibly overoptimistic prediction: the macro-effect of the vaccines decreasing R will be considerably greater than the individual effects.
That is, case transmission will fall significantly further than modelling would suggest it should when the reduction in R is modelled, but this will happen after a certain proportion of the population are dosed.
The logic is that covid has a high “k” - it’s very reliant on superspreaders (loads of people pass it on to zero or one or at most two people; the average is kept up by the occasional superspreader doing 30 or 40 or more). The reduction in viral load will make superspreading far harder quicker than normal spreading, and by making superspreaders fewer, it makes the necessary “joining up” of superspreaders to fuel an outbreak far far harder.
And cases crater faster than R would suggest.
It’s rather guessworky, but I think there’s a decent chance of it unfolding like that.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
Yes absolutely agreed. I might even go further. Almost an end of term feeling.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
"People falling ill with coronavirus" or "people testing positive for coronavirus"?
Aren't most of the increased cases just schoolchildren, er, getting tested?
The problem is that Scottish Labour still like to think they are fighting the Tories. Its truly bizarre displacement activity. It doesn't matter how many times the SNP smash them to the 4 winds, take all their seats, take all their Councils, replace all their chums and placemen in the broader state, they still want to go on about fighting the Tories.
I have had leaflets in Dundee West, even at the last election, saying vote Labour to stop the Tories. The SNP majority in that seat is now over 12k. Labour have been annihilated and yet will still not engage with their true foe. Abstaining today when SKS has already called for Sturgeon to go is simply typical. Its pathological and, frankly, insane.
Seems a bit unlikely. I can't think of too many things that would explain a 7pt swing in one month. More likely two outliers at opposite ends of the spectrum.
It is comparing its April 2020 poll (Cons at 46 Labour at 29) to today
Seems a bit unlikely. I can't think of too many things that would explain a 7pt swing in one month. More likely two outliers at opposite ends of the spectrum.
It's not in one month, look at what it is compared to
Seems a bit unlikely. I can't think of too many things that would explain a 7pt swing in one month. More likely two outliers at opposite ends of the spectrum.
No foreign holidays hinting / the absurd "commemmeration "today of anyone dying in the UK in the last year (people are just not in the mood for more doom and gloom meaningless gestures)
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
I just hope that we are nearly there and don't start drifting backwards on the unlocking plan. The fact that we're now more than a fortnight on from the schools reopening and there hasn't been a disaster - the case rate per 100k per week is now marginally lower than it was on March 8th - gives cause for a degree of optimism.
A reminder that most secondaries only started back properly at the start of last week, and indeed some only fully reopened yesterday.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
Yes absolutely agreed. I might even go further. Almost an end of term feeling.
I have a similar feeling because I am one of the XX million people who is next week going to be taking the last opportunity to use up my 2020 rolled over vacation.
Anyway, sorry, wrote this for PT. Too late. Stick it here instead. No harm.
We've seen a strong turnout by the liberty gang on PB today and it got me thinking. I’m partial to a bit of the old freedom myself so why am I not a fully paid-up member? Why do I think that although the government has been taking liberties they have not (by and large) been taking liberties?
And the answer is, because apart from on care homes (where the ‘no visits’ policy was imo inhumane) and on household mixing (did we really need micro-managing legislation for this?), I can’t see where the government has been overly gratuitous or heavy-handed. And even on the mixing, the rules were in any case not assiduously policed. I have never felt I couldn’t meet whoever I wanted to. As to the rest. WFH? Surely commonsense. Closing businesses? Had to be done to formalize the financial support. It wouldn’t have been fair to leave shops and hospitality trading with no customers. Masks and social distancing? The bread and butter of virus mitigation.
The big picture is that measures were needed to stop the NHS collapsing and the societal chaos which would have ensued. They were not excessive because the NHS did for a brief time collapse (or as near as makes no difference) in both the first wave and the second, in April last year and January this year. So the response was necessary, QED. Only covid denialists would dispute this. And our PB libertines have only the one covid denialist. The rest aren’t, although one or two have flirted with it. So what’s the beef apart from tonal trivia like “people aren’t moaning about it enough”? Where are we saying freedoms have been seriously curtailed without a clear justification?
Unless there are credible answers to this, I’m going to harbour a suspicion that what we’re seeing is essentially virtue-signalling. A way of saying, “I like freedom more than the average bear”.
Plus soon it’ll be over. The roadmap is going to be met. April 12th is just round the corner and that’s the big one for me. Shops and outdoor pubs and indoor leisure. Can’t wait. Or rather my point is I can. I can wait and I’m really looking forward to it. Then full domestic freedom by the start of summer and foreign holidays by the end of it. Brill.
I just do not feel much of a need for Steve Baker to protect me from tyranny and I don’t totally understand why others do. I'd like to understand but atm I can't.
I'm not sure whether you consider me a PB Libertine (like the branding BTW) but I kinda started this this morning by agreeing with Dan Hodges' tweet that it's a matter of tone. The government cannot and should not be trumpeting its (undeniable) vaccine success while simultaneously reverting to daily earnest "words of caution" that make looking forward to 12 April / 17 May / 21 June feel like the vapid, frivolous act of a cockeyed, optimistic greenhorn.
Fully agree. And @kinabalu, you can't say it wasn't enforced: there were dozens and dozens of stories of the police not only enforcing the rules(old lady in Gloucestershire having a cup of tea-gate) but alsi enforcing rules which didn't exist (having a coffee counts as a picnic). But even if they hadn't, 'just ignore the rules' doesn't work, because we are, by and large, a law-abiding bunch. I couldn't see my parents not because they were afraid of being caught but because they follow rules. My kids couldn't play with their friends not because their friends' parents thought there was any risk but because they follow the rules. The stories about the rule breakers obscure just how rule-fillowing the Britush tend to be, even if we think the rules are stupid . I take your point about the impact on businesses had it all been advisory though. Tge ibkt reason it's fallen to Steve baker to make thesr points is that no one else will.
Seems a bit unlikely. I can't think of too many things that would explain a 7pt swing in one month. More likely two outliers at opposite ends of the spectrum.
It is comparing its April 2020 poll (Cons at 46 Labour at 29) to today
Oh right - misread it! What's the point of that!!!
Hmm. I wonder if all this talk of vaccine standoffs and trade wars is reflecting as badly on Boris's Brexit as it is on the EU. He promised us a golden age but it's looking decidedly naff at present. As with Sunny Jim all those years ago, perhaps a beaming personality starts to grate when the cold wind blows.
Can somebody explain why Starmer is far closer to Johnson in popularity in NW than in the Midlands?
Is this a supposition derived from digging about in the cross-tabs of an opinion poll? Not necessarily the most reliable metric; however, if we make the assumption that it's correct then the best explanation can be obtained from looking at the map after the 2019 GE and seeing where Labour's remaining bases of strength are. QED.
Hmm. I wonder if all this talk of vaccine standoffs and trade wars is reflecting as badly on Boris's Brexit as it is on the EU. He promised us a golden age but it's looking decidedly naff at present. As with Sunny Jim all those years ago, perhaps a beaming personality starts to grate when the cold wind blows.
The detail makes interesting reading but overall Boris beats Starmer and the red wall seats are still pro Boris
Anyway, sorry, wrote this for PT. Too late. Stick it here instead. No harm.
We've seen a strong turnout by the liberty gang on PB today and it got me thinking. I’m partial to a bit of the old freedom myself so why am I not a fully paid-up member? Why do I think that although the government has been taking liberties they have not (by and large) been taking liberties?
And the answer is, because apart from on care homes (where the ‘no visits’ policy was imo inhumane) and on household mixing (did we really need micro-managing legislation for this?), I can’t see where the government has been overly gratuitous or heavy-handed. And even on the mixing, the rules were in any case not assiduously policed. I have never felt I couldn’t meet whoever I wanted to. As to the rest. WFH? Surely commonsense. Closing businesses? Had to be done to formalize the financial support. It wouldn’t have been fair to leave shops and hospitality trading with no customers. Masks and social distancing? The bread and butter of virus mitigation.
The big picture is that measures were needed to stop the NHS collapsing and the societal chaos which would have ensued. They were not excessive because the NHS did for a brief time collapse (or as near as makes no difference) in both the first wave and the second, in April last year and January this year. So the response was necessary, QED. Only covid denialists would dispute this. And our PB libertines have only the one covid denialist. The rest aren’t, although one or two have flirted with it. So what’s the beef apart from tonal trivia like “people aren’t moaning about it enough”? Where are we saying freedoms have been seriously curtailed without a clear justification?
Unless there are credible answers to this, I’m going to harbour a suspicion that what we’re seeing is essentially virtue-signalling. A way of saying, “I like freedom more than the average bear”.
Plus soon it’ll be over. The roadmap is going to be met. April 12th is just round the corner and that’s the big one for me. Shops and outdoor pubs and indoor leisure. Can’t wait. Or rather my point is I can. I can wait and I’m really looking forward to it. Then full domestic freedom by the start of summer and foreign holidays by the end of it. Brill.
I just do not feel much of a need for Steve Baker to protect me from tyranny and I don’t totally understand why others do. I'd like to understand but atm I can't.
I'm not sure whether you consider me a PB Libertine (like the branding BTW) but I kinda started this this morning by agreeing with Dan Hodges' tweet that it's a matter of tone. The government cannot and should not be trumpeting its (undeniable) vaccine success while simultaneously reverting to daily earnest "words of caution" that make looking forward to 12 April / 17 May / 21 June feel like the vapid, frivolous act of a cockeyed, optimistic greenhorn.
Fully agree. And @kinabalu, you can't say it wasn't enforced: there were dozens and dozens of stories of the police not only enforcing the rules(old lady in Gloucestershire having a cup of tea-gate) but alsi enforcing rules which didn't exist (having a coffee counts as a picnic). But even if they hadn't, 'just ignore the rules' doesn't work, because we are, by and large, a law-abiding bunch. I couldn't see my parents not because they were afraid of being caught but because they follow rules. My kids couldn't play with their friends not because their friends' parents thought there was any risk but because they follow the rules. The stories about the rule breakers obscure just how rule-fillowing the Britush tend to be, even if we think the rules are stupid . I take your point about the impact on businesses had it all been advisory though. Tge ibkt reason it's fallen to Steve baker to make thesr points is that no one else will.
yes there is a lot of truth in that - people follow things because they are the rules - At an individual level it is kinda cute (although I try and never follow an instruction unless I agree with it ) but it becomes ugly when neighbours grass up other neighbours like we have seen this year with the disgusting hotline priti patel championed. The film Jo JO Rabbit has a lot of this culture in it - the mother of the boy refusing to follow the law because she disagrees with it (not overtly but inwardly and not public ) , the boy being a massive Hitler fan at the start and gradually being won over by his own humanity
A rather patronising header. It all depends what the objective of the protest is. According to your analysis the 1,000,000 plus who demonstated against the Iraq invasion should have been one of the most successful ever. In fact it achieved nothing. Historically the more havoc the protesters wreak the more successful the action. Protest works when the authorities are goaded into violent counter measures.
And yet the dozens and hundreds of identitkit 'protests' with the same people, same banners, same revolutionary zeal, achieve nothing as well no matter that they seek to 'goad' the authorities. You also seem very confident that protestors weaking havoc will lead to success, when a counter reaction seems at least as likely if not more so.
Do you think someone taking a crap in front of a police officer and smashing up a police sation has made it more likely that the police will be held accountable for their actions or the government to rein in its authoritarian plans? Or will some of the people who were against the plans find it harder to sway more to their side?
I think the point about lack of success of many, nay, most peaceful protests is true, but perennial protestors who do the same shouting slogans and petty criminal damage at every protest they can latch onto don't help the causes they purport to care about. They only care about themselves, about venting their anger or pushing other aims.
You are doing what cyclefree was doing. Giving her views on the behaviour of the demonstrators. I'm sure most people find burning police vans and taking a crap on a policeman's shoes undesirable but that's not what her header was about. It was about the effectiveness of the action.
What I would like to know is why the police did not give them a good doing, what were the dogs for, horses, tazers , etc. They should have got stuck in about them.
Can somebody explain why Starmer is far closer to Johnson in popularity in NW than in the Midlands?
Is this a supposition derived from digging about in the cross-tabs of an opinion poll? Not necessarily the most reliable metric; however, if we make the assumption that it's correct then the best explanation can be obtained from looking at the map after the 2019 GE and seeing where Labour's remaining bases of strength are. QED.
It was quoted in the Independent article that goes with the poll, no idea if they're looking at the crosstabs or not mate.
Seems a bit unlikely. I can't think of too many things that would explain a 7pt swing in one month. More likely two outliers at opposite ends of the spectrum.
It is comparing its April 2020 poll (Cons at 46 Labour at 29) to today
Oh right - misread it! What's the point of that!!!
The Tories need to find something else to talk about other than Brexit, it will be interesting to see if this assumption proves correct or not in Hartlepool.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
I just hope that we are nearly there and don't start drifting backwards on the unlocking plan. The fact that we're now more than a fortnight on from the schools reopening and there hasn't been a disaster - the case rate per 100k per week is now marginally lower than it was on March 8th - gives cause for a degree of optimism.
What difference will a couple of weeks or a month make. Key is to make sure it is totally safe and not have to go through it again.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
Exactly this. By the way, here’s a possibly overoptimistic prediction: the macro-effect of the vaccines decreasing R will be considerably greater than the individual effects.
That is, case transmission will fall significantly further than modelling would suggest it should when the reduction in R is modelled, but this will happen after a certain proportion of the population are dosed.
The logic is that covid has a high “k” - it’s very reliant on superspreaders (loads of people pass it on to zero or one or at most two people; the average is kept up by the occasional superspreader doing 30 or 40 or more). The reduction in viral load will make superspreading far harder quicker than normal spreading, and by making superspreaders fewer, it makes the necessary “joining up” of superspreaders to fuel an outbreak far far harder.
And cases crater faster than R would suggest.
It’s rather guessworky, but I think there’s a decent chance of it unfolding like that.
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
I just hope that we are nearly there and don't start drifting backwards on the unlocking plan. The fact that we're now more than a fortnight on from the schools reopening and there hasn't been a disaster - the case rate per 100k per week is now marginally lower than it was on March 8th - gives cause for a degree of optimism.
What difference will a couple of weeks or a month make. Key is to make sure it is totally safe and not have to go through it again.
A rather patronising header. It all depends what the objective of the protest is. According to your analysis the 1,000,000 plus who demonstated against the Iraq invasion should have been one of the most successful ever. In fact it achieved nothing. Historically the more havoc the protesters wreak the more successful the action. Protest works when the authorities are goaded into violent counter measures.
And yet the dozens and hundreds of identitkit 'protests' with the same people, same banners, same revolutionary zeal, achieve nothing as well no matter that they seek to 'goad' the authorities. You also seem very confident that protestors weaking havoc will lead to success, when a counter reaction seems at least as likely if not more so.
Do you think someone taking a crap in front of a police officer and smashing up a police sation has made it more likely that the police will be held accountable for their actions or the government to rein in its authoritarian plans? Or will some of the people who were against the plans find it harder to sway more to their side?
I think the point about lack of success of many, nay, most peaceful protests is true, but perennial protestors who do the same shouting slogans and petty criminal damage at every protest they can latch onto don't help the causes they purport to care about. They only care about themselves, about venting their anger or pushing other aims.
You are doing what cyclefree was doing. Giving her views on the behaviour of the demonstrators. I'm sure most people find burning police vans and taking a crap on a policeman's shoes undesirable but that's not what her header was about. It was about the effectiveness of the action.
What I would like to know is why the police did not give them a good doing, what were the dogs for, horses, tazers , etc. They should have got stuck in about them.
Avon and Somerset have just been on to explain that they would have given them a good going over but you’ve taken all their turnips to hurl at Nicola Sturgeon, John Swinney and that idiot at Justice.
Astrazeneca do seem to have a problem with their stakeholder management...
Maybe AZ have decided they've had enough of this whole vaccine (produced at cost) lark and are quite happy to only go where they're wanted!
I bet working out the cost price of their vaccine is a cost accountants wet dream! Boring his colleagues with overhead absorption, marginal activity based costing
The problem is that Scottish Labour still like to think they are fighting the Tories. Its truly bizarre displacement activity. It doesn't matter how many times the SNP smash them to the 4 winds, take all their seats, take all their Councils, replace all their chums and placemen in the broader state, they still want to go on about fighting the Tories.
I have had leaflets in Dundee West, even at the last election, saying vote Labour to stop the Tories. The SNP majority in that seat is now over 12k. Labour have been annihilated and yet will still not engage with their true foe. Abstaining today when SKS has already called for Sturgeon to go is simply typical. Its pathological and, frankly, insane.
If Labour had done as Starmer asked the vote today would have been 58 v 65
Anyway, sorry, wrote this for PT. Too late. Stick it here instead. No harm.
We've seen a strong turnout by the liberty gang on PB today and it got me thinking. I’m partial to a bit of the old freedom myself so why am I not a fully paid-up member? Why do I think that although the government has been taking liberties they have not (by and large) been taking liberties?
And the answer is, because apart from on care homes (where the ‘no visits’ policy was imo inhumane) and on household mixing (did we really need micro-managing legislation for this?), I can’t see where the government has been overly gratuitous or heavy-handed. And even on the mixing, the rules were in any case not assiduously policed. I have never felt I couldn’t meet whoever I wanted to. As to the rest. WFH? Surely commonsense. Closing businesses? Had to be done to formalize the financial support. It wouldn’t have been fair to leave shops and hospitality trading with no customers. Masks and social distancing? The bread and butter of virus mitigation.
The big picture is that measures were needed to stop the NHS collapsing and the societal chaos which would have ensued. They were not excessive because the NHS did for a brief time collapse (or as near as makes no difference) in both the first wave and the second, in April last year and January this year. So the response was necessary, QED. Only covid denialists would dispute this. And our PB libertines have only the one covid denialist. The rest aren’t, although one or two have flirted with it. So what’s the beef apart from tonal trivia like “people aren’t moaning about it enough”? Where are we saying freedoms have been seriously curtailed without a clear justification?
Unless there are credible answers to this, I’m going to harbour a suspicion that what we’re seeing is essentially virtue-signalling. A way of saying, “I like freedom more than the average bear”.
Plus soon it’ll be over. The roadmap is going to be met. April 12th is just round the corner and that’s the big one for me. Shops and outdoor pubs and indoor leisure. Can’t wait. Or rather my point is I can. I can wait and I’m really looking forward to it. Then full domestic freedom by the start of summer and foreign holidays by the end of it. Brill.
I just do not feel much of a need for Steve Baker to protect me from tyranny and I don’t totally understand why others do. I'd like to understand but atm I can't.
I'm not sure whether you consider me a PB Libertine (like the branding BTW) but I kinda started this this morning by agreeing with Dan Hodges' tweet that it's a matter of tone. The government cannot and should not be trumpeting its (undeniable) vaccine success while simultaneously reverting to daily earnest "words of caution" that make looking forward to 12 April / 17 May / 21 June feel like the vapid, frivolous act of a cockeyed, optimistic greenhorn.
Ah ok. Well I just screen all that chuntering out. This is nearly over now. Mine's a double voddy.
The problem is that Scottish Labour still like to think they are fighting the Tories. Its truly bizarre displacement activity. It doesn't matter how many times the SNP smash them to the 4 winds, take all their seats, take all their Councils, replace all their chums and placemen in the broader state, they still want to go on about fighting the Tories.
I have had leaflets in Dundee West, even at the last election, saying vote Labour to stop the Tories. The SNP majority in that seat is now over 12k. Labour have been annihilated and yet will still not engage with their true foe. Abstaining today when SKS has already called for Sturgeon to go is simply typical. Its pathological and, frankly, insane.
Scottish Labour learned the hard way, the price of associating with toxic Tories
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
I just hope that we are nearly there and don't start drifting backwards on the unlocking plan. The fact that we're now more than a fortnight on from the schools reopening and there hasn't been a disaster - the case rate per 100k per week is now marginally lower than it was on March 8th - gives cause for a degree of optimism.
What difference will a couple of weeks or a month make. Key is to make sure it is totally safe and not have to go through it again.
It's never going to be totally safe, Malc.
With most of the 50+ vaccinated, there must be a serious argument for implementing the "Barrington Declaration" plan of locking everyone up 70+ and letting everyone else get it as rapidly as possible. With added bonus that you don't have to lock up the 70+ (because they're vaccinated), you get to "lockup" the 50+ chucked in!
We could be wasting time here by delaying release from lockdown...
Judging by Chris Whitty's comments today. all we can expect from today's press conference is another giant dollop of gloom.
I hope you are bracing yourselves.
- "England's chief medical officer Prof Chris Whitty says the rates of people falling ill with coronavirus is continuing to fall, and although it is "going down more slowly" this was expected, as children return to school.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
No here you are right Andy. Hands up. It was much more upbeat that I was expecting. They even talked about the enormous challenges ahead in terms of mental health issues and cancer backlogs.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
I think that much of the criticism that comes your way on this site comes from the fact that everyone knows these measures have such effects. Its the balancing of them against the effect of not locking down that is the problem. You will doubtless point to Florida or Sweden but views differe.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
Yes absolutely agreed. I might even go further. Almost an end of term feeling.
I have a similar feeling because I am one of the XX million people who is next week going to be taking the last opportunity to use up my 2020 rolled over vacation.
LOL me too. Hopes of an early end to it all dashed and two days of what the f8ck am I going to do with this.
Comments
Have I misunderstood?
Do you think someone taking a crap in front of a police officer and smashing up a police sation has made it more likely that the police will be held accountable for their actions or the government to rein in its authoritarian plans? Or will some of the people who were against the plans find it harder to sway more to their side?
I think the point about lack of success of many, nay, most peaceful protests is true, but perennial protestors who do the same shouting slogans and petty criminal damage at every protest they can latch onto don't help the causes they purport to care about. They only care about themselves, about venting their anger or pushing other aims.
Apparently the war on cash is to keep the elites richer and with the abolition of cash it allows the state to keep their eyes on you.
Amusingly they were pro Brexit.
BetterUp provides coaching and mental health services to clients. The company's website lists Harry as part of its leadership team, describing him as a "humanitarian, military veteran, mental wellness advocate, and environmentalist."
Of course it is disappointing that the EU wants to increase its dependence on Russian fuel and limit its freedom of maneuver vis a vis Russia going forward but that is an EU decision. America should reflect on such choices and choose its friends accordingly but they should not be seeking to bully Germany into not completing the pipeline if so minded.
We've seen a strong turnout by the liberty gang on PB today and it got me thinking. I’m partial to a bit of the old freedom myself so why am I not a fully paid-up member? Why do I think that although the government has been taking liberties they have not (by and large) been taking liberties?
And the answer is, because apart from on care homes (where the ‘no visits’ policy was imo inhumane) and on household mixing (did we really need micro-managing legislation for this?), I can’t see where the government has been overly gratuitous or heavy-handed. And even on the mixing, the rules were in any case not assiduously policed. I have never felt I couldn’t meet whoever I wanted to. As to the rest. WFH? Surely commonsense. Closing businesses? Had to be done to formalize the financial support. It wouldn’t have been fair to leave shops and hospitality trading with no customers. Masks and social distancing? The bread and butter of virus mitigation.
The big picture is that measures were needed to stop the NHS collapsing and the societal chaos which would have ensued. They were not excessive because the NHS did for a brief time collapse (or as near as makes no difference) in both the first wave and the second, in April last year and January this year. So the response was necessary, QED. Only covid denialists would dispute this. And our PB libertines have only the one covid denialist. The rest aren’t, although one or two have flirted with it. So what’s the beef apart from tonal trivia like “people aren’t moaning about it enough”? Where are we saying freedoms have been seriously curtailed without a clear justification?
Unless there are credible answers to this, I’m going to harbour a suspicion that what we’re seeing is essentially virtue-signalling. A way of saying, “I like freedom more than the average bear”.
Plus soon it’ll be over. The roadmap is going to be met. April 12th is just round the corner and that’s the big one for me. Shops and outdoor pubs and indoor leisure. Can’t wait. Or rather my point is I can. I can wait and I’m really looking forward to it. Then full domestic freedom by the start of summer and foreign holidays by the end of it. Brill.
I just do not feel much of a need for Steve Baker to protect me from tyranny and I don’t totally understand why others do. I'd like to understand but atm I can't.
He says the number of people in hospital with coronavirus has come down "rapidly".
Deaths registered after 28 days of a positive coronavirus test result have started to fall "much more rapidly", he adds."
- "New surges will meet a wall of vaccinated people".
Your definition of "gloom" and mine do seem to vary.
I am starting to think that taking out Paris and Brussels may be an overreaction after all.
That is right -- they dug up a meadow of beautiful wildflowers in front of Trinity College.
Environmentalism should be the easiest thing in the world to build an inclusive, strong & powerful coalition around.
You just need to harness the kind of interest in nature & the planet that is evident in the viewing figures to David Attenborough's TV series -- together with the Countryside Alliance, the Campaign to Protect Rural England/Wales/Scotland, the NationalTrust, Ramblers' Associations, Angling groups, and so on.
It would perhaps be more middle-of-the-road than an XR protest. But, such a broad coalition is much more likely to effect change.
Instead, XR end up alienating people with protests on trains in East London stopping tired working-class people getting home after work.
That may have been refitted.
EU waving an even bigger rubber stick - they seem to be gearing up to have a go at J&J.
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-vaccines/eu-to-tighten-vaccine-export-rules-in-possible-blow-to-firms-backloading-supplies-source-idUSL1N2LL1P4
Every time I go to the ATM.
It reminds me I now have money.
So I can walk side by side with him on that.
Given there is loads of media coverage of the potential for vaccine trade wars, and not so much about where the EU went wrong last year, then it seems to be working (for the EU's political leaders).
Not even COVID.
Trouble is, you could argue that their measures in part, exacerbated those problems. I think they even sort of acknowledged that.
There was a distinct "light at the end of the tunnel" feeling about tonight's press conference I thought.
Labour are back!!!
So Pfizer (or whoever) can just sit on the vaccines produced. At which point the EU have to massively escalate even further and actually move towards forced appropriation. Which surely is a route they REALLY don't want to go down?
And then in 6 months time when the UK has become a global superpower in vaccine production - completely self sufficient and then some - and the EU are looking around for winter booster jabs, where are they going to go?
That’s why they’re in a bad mess and carefully taking action to make matters worse.
By the way, here’s a possibly overoptimistic prediction: the macro-effect of the vaccines decreasing R will be considerably greater than the individual effects.
That is, case transmission will fall significantly further than modelling would suggest it should when the reduction in R is modelled, but this will happen after a certain proportion of the population are dosed.
The logic is that covid has a high “k” - it’s very reliant on superspreaders (loads of people pass it on to zero or one or at most two people; the average is kept up by the occasional superspreader doing 30 or 40 or more).
The reduction in viral load will make superspreading far harder quicker than normal spreading, and by making superspreaders fewer, it makes the necessary “joining up” of superspreaders to fuel an outbreak far far harder.
And cases crater faster than R would suggest.
It’s rather guessworky, but I think there’s a decent chance of it unfolding like that.
Aren't most of the increased cases just schoolchildren, er, getting tested?
I have had leaflets in Dundee West, even at the last election, saying vote Labour to stop the Tories. The SNP majority in that seat is now over 12k. Labour have been annihilated and yet will still not engage with their true foe. Abstaining today when SKS has already called for Sturgeon to go is simply typical. Its pathological and, frankly, insane.
But you are right, so far so encouraging.
https://twitter.com/biosbenk/status/1374400705247604745
I take your point about the impact on businesses had it all been advisory though.
Tge ibkt reason it's fallen to Steve baker to make thesr points is that no one else will.
https://twitter.com/DailyFXTeam/status/1374424162144448519
Hope you are well BTW.
So what am I going to do? Long lunches on my own don't somehow seem as indulgent or luxurious.
And no one please say learn Greek.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJ7F3xpGFfo
J&J are planning to backload their EU deliveries for Q2, and ED bods are not very happy.
Looks a little bit like another misunderstood contract.
We could be wasting time here by delaying release from lockdown...