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You can get evens that Biden’s approval will still be in the 50-54.9 range after 100 days – politica

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  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,421
    MattW said:

    Roger said:

    justin124 said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 40% (=)
    LAB: 33% (-4)
    LDM: 11% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)
    RFM: 3% (+1)
    UKIP: 2% (+1)

    Via
    @Kantar_UKI
    , 18-22 Feb.
    Changes w/ 21-25 Jan.

    SKS fans please explain

    DBMIVN (Don't blame me I voted Nandy)

    What has caused the sudden surge in LD support to 11%?
    Ed Davey doesn't try to squeeze three Union Jacks into the background every time he does an interview? It works for me,
    Who would bother to interview Ed Davey?
    There have been two stories tagged with Ed Davey on the Guardian website since the end of September. That's nearly five months.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ed-davey

    (Caroline Lucas has three)
    Caroline Lucas is not the Leader of a Political party, so you can't compare them :-) .
    True enough. The leaders of the Green Party have one article for the same time period. Starmer has three today.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    edited February 2021
    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:



    How do you know that? It's a vicious circle. They don't get covered, so we don't know what they are saying, which leads to them not having anything to contribute.

    Usual story. Those in charge of the agenda (the government) have everything their way.

    I wouldn't worry about the frequent "what's the point of the Lib Dems?" from some on here. It's part of the background noise - the Party doesn't have to justify its existence to Conservative activists.

    Try asking them "what's the point of the Conservative Party?".

    Quite lately, and in the medium term, it has been about winning power and empowering individuals over vested interests.
    Power for its own sakes, but certainly empowering the vested interests of Tory cronies.

    There is no party to vote for supporting financial prudence, just different magic money forests.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298

    Evening all.

    Was wondering earlier today exactly why it was that hacks had been asking Allegra Stratton about what would happen to Tory MPs who voted down the Budget, to which she of course replied that the whip would be removed. I thought that Budgets were always regarded as a matter of confidence, so why would anyone bother to ask?

    Anyhow, the Torygraph is now reporting ructions over a mooted hike in CGT. Now, what I know about tax accountancy could be summarised on the back of a postage stamp, but I'm guessing that this is something along the lines of bringing the bands into line with those for income tax, which I seem previously to remember reading ought to raise quite a lot of revenue - at the expense, of course, of those rich enough to be paying CGT in the first place.

    Now, I may be missing something obvious here, but I'm not at all sure why the Chancellor WOULDN'T take the opportunity to give the rich a bit of a soaking. He's got to start work on balancing the books some time, most of the affected people are probably rolling in money after having their high incomes bolstered with the abolition of commuting (and can therefore well afford the extra expense,) and the Red Wall will be more than happy to hear those pips squeak if it means more cash for Our Beloved NHS.

    After all, the next election is going to be fought primarily in the Midlands and the North, not down South. And it doesn't much matter if the Tories cause a mild wave of indignation to propagate through the stockbroker belt. It's not as if wealthy voters have anywhere preferable to go.

    Fat chance of that happening. The Tory party would break up the union, scrap the monarchy and cut the defence budget before they raised capital gains tax.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Quite a few stories of Tory tax rebellions tonight (Telly/FT).

    Did the backbenchers expect spending close to half a trillion would come without a price tag?

    They've probably all assumed that if taxes are *CUT* by enough then somehow economic growth will magically make the debts disappear. Because Laffer Curve, or something.

    Either that or they were planning to recoup the losses by doing various ghastly things to the poor and the unemployed. Who can say?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:



    How do you know that? It's a vicious circle. They don't get covered, so we don't know what they are saying, which leads to them not having anything to contribute.

    Usual story. Those in charge of the agenda (the government) have everything their way.

    I wouldn't worry about the frequent "what's the point of the Lib Dems?" from some on here. It's part of the background noise - the Party doesn't have to justify its existence to Conservative activists.

    Try asking them "what's the point of the Conservative Party?".

    Quite lately, and in the medium term, it has been about winning power and empowering individuals over vested interests.
    Power for its own sakes, but certainly empowering the vested interests of Tory cronies.

    There is no party to vote for supporting financial prudence, just different magic money forests.
    Rolling back the power of unions has been a consistent benefit for the British people since the 80s. Tories don't get the thanks they deserve for it.

    But we don't mind. We know we're doing good work.

  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    edited February 2021
    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:



    How do you know that? It's a vicious circle. They don't get covered, so we don't know what they are saying, which leads to them not having anything to contribute.

    Usual story. Those in charge of the agenda (the government) have everything their way.

    I wouldn't worry about the frequent "what's the point of the Lib Dems?" from some on here. It's part of the background noise - the Party doesn't have to justify its existence to Conservative activists.

    Try asking them "what's the point of the Conservative Party?".
    Quite lately, and in the medium term, it has been about winning power and empowering individuals over vested interests.
    How can you say that, when all the vested interests are Johnson, his cronies and his financial backers?

    At some stage people will see through all this Conservative spin for the nonsense it is.

    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Quite a few stories of Tory tax rebellions tonight (Telly/FT).

    Did the backbenchers expect spending close to half a trillion would come without a price tag?

    They've probably all assumed that if taxes are *CUT* by enough then somehow economic growth will magically make the debts disappear. Because Laffer Curve, or something.

    Either that or they were planning to recoup the losses by doing various ghastly things to the poor and the unemployed. Who can say?
    It occurred to me that if you wanted to wring concessions from the government on something (EG faster lockdown end), you might choose an important bill labour were actually going to vote against.

    Few and far between these days, it seems.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,041
    Roger said:

    justin124 said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 40% (=)
    LAB: 33% (-4)
    LDM: 11% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)
    RFM: 3% (+1)
    UKIP: 2% (+1)

    Via
    @Kantar_UKI
    , 18-22 Feb.
    Changes w/ 21-25 Jan.

    SKS fans please explain

    DBMIVN (Don't blame me I voted Nandy)

    What has caused the sudden surge in LD support to 11%?
    Ed Davey doesn't try to squeeze three Union Jacks into the background every time he does an interview? It works for me,
    The Lib Dems have recently started a big on line campaign called Maraphone. It may be that this is triggering dormant Lib Dem support.
  • Time to outlaw all arranged marriages.

    The Jewish Marriage Council (JMC) has said that while young Jews from a strictly Orthodox background are not “forced” to marry, they can nevertheless feel “coerced”.

    In its astonishing admission, the Hendon-based organisation appeared to be trying to justify the traditional Charedi shidduch system of families working together for their children to meet in arranged introductions.

    “This is done with consent from both parties which is a requirement under Jewish law,” said the JMC. “While there may be instances whereby one might feel coerced, we have not come across any party feeling as if they have been forced.”


    https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/charedim-not-forced-but-can-be-coerced-into-marriage-jewish-group-says/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:



    How do you know that? It's a vicious circle. They don't get covered, so we don't know what they are saying, which leads to them not having anything to contribute.

    Usual story. Those in charge of the agenda (the government) have everything their way.

    I wouldn't worry about the frequent "what's the point of the Lib Dems?" from some on here. It's part of the background noise - the Party doesn't have to justify its existence to Conservative activists.

    Try asking them "what's the point of the Conservative Party?".

    Quite lately, and in the medium term, it has been about winning power and empowering individuals over vested interests.
    Power for its own sakes, but certainly empowering the vested interests of Tory cronies.

    There is no party to vote for supporting financial prudence, just different magic money forests.
    Rolling back the power of unions has been a consistent benefit for the British people since the 80s. Tories don't get the thanks they deserve for it.

    But we don't mind. We know we're doing good work.

    What rolling back of union power has happened since the eighties? That was 30 years ago!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    ClippP said:

    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:



    How do you know that? It's a vicious circle. They don't get covered, so we don't know what they are saying, which leads to them not having anything to contribute.

    Usual story. Those in charge of the agenda (the government) have everything their way.

    I wouldn't worry about the frequent "what's the point of the Lib Dems?" from some on here. It's part of the background noise - the Party doesn't have to justify its existence to Conservative activists.

    Try asking them "what's the point of the Conservative Party?".
    Quite lately, and in the medium term, it has been about winning power and empowering individuals over vested interests.
    How can you say that, when all the vested interests are Johnson, his cronies and his financial backers?

    At some stage people will see through all this Conservative spin for the nonsense it is.

    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?
    To make money?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,770
    slade said:

    Roger said:

    justin124 said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 40% (=)
    LAB: 33% (-4)
    LDM: 11% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)
    RFM: 3% (+1)
    UKIP: 2% (+1)

    Via
    @Kantar_UKI
    , 18-22 Feb.
    Changes w/ 21-25 Jan.

    SKS fans please explain

    DBMIVN (Don't blame me I voted Nandy)

    What has caused the sudden surge in LD support to 11%?
    Ed Davey doesn't try to squeeze three Union Jacks into the background every time he does an interview? It works for me,
    The Lib Dems have recently started a big on line campaign called Maraphone. It may be that this is triggering dormant Lib Dem support.
    They're vaguely active in support of their London Mayoral candidate (Porritt). Not enough to make a dent though and I apologise for my prior betting recommendation (admittedly at 800 or so).

    Davey is achieving nothing and being seen to be achieving nothing.
  • https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Conspiracy or cock-up? Or both conspiracy and cock-up? Or multiple conspiracies and cock-ups? Or bungled conspiracies and fumbled cock-ups?
    We need clarity.
  • Because of the crappy Electoral College system where the popular vote LOSER can "win"?
  • TresTres Posts: 2,702

    Barnesian said:

    justin124 said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 40% (=)
    LAB: 33% (-4)
    LDM: 11% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)
    RFM: 3% (+1)
    UKIP: 2% (+1)

    Via
    @Kantar_UKI
    , 18-22 Feb.
    Changes w/ 21-25 Jan.

    SKS fans please explain

    DBMIVN (Don't blame me I voted Nandy)

    What has caused the sudden surge in LD support to 11%?
    I think the LibDems will remain invisible at national level but are firing up the Quattro at local level.
    It is the usual story of fighting for coverage in any National media when most papers and channels are talking about vaccine, holidays and schoolchildren at home. It's the same reason that Johnson's government is getting away with the massive decline in our exports in certain industries due to the new Brexit paperwork without any real comeback.
    But the more unusual story is that they appear to have nothing to say. On anything. They invested so heavily in "Bollocks to Brexit", that with it gone they appear, well, emasculated.
    How do you know that? It's a vicious circle. They don't get covered, so we don't know what they are saying, which leads to them not having anything to contribute.

    Usual story. Those in charge of the agenda (the government) have everything their way.
    Because if they had any story, we would hear it on pb.com. Their supporters here are not exactly shy and retiring.

    The utter silence from the LibDems here tells the story. Sir Ed is leading the way - by saying nothing.
    Any new policies will just get nicked by Johnson anyway, best to keep the powder dry.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Er, I don't think you can add first dose and second dose together to get 8%.
  • Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:



    How do you know that? It's a vicious circle. They don't get covered, so we don't know what they are saying, which leads to them not having anything to contribute.

    Usual story. Those in charge of the agenda (the government) have everything their way.

    I wouldn't worry about the frequent "what's the point of the Lib Dems?" from some on here. It's part of the background noise - the Party doesn't have to justify its existence to Conservative activists.

    Try asking them "what's the point of the Conservative Party?".

    Quite lately, and in the medium term, it has been about winning power and empowering individuals over vested interests.
    Power for its own sakes, but certainly empowering the vested interests of Tory cronies.

    There is no party to vote for supporting financial prudence, just different magic money forests.
    Rolling back the power of unions has been a consistent benefit for the British people since the 80s. Tories don't get the thanks they deserve for it.

    But we don't mind. We know we're doing good work.

    What rolling back of union power has happened since the eighties? That was 30 years ago!
    Done sterling work rolling back the power of ‘the’ Union currently.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
  • IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    Perhaps the refusers are bunched together in certain places?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Er, I don't think you can add first dose and second dose together to get 8%.
    You can if you're sufficiently desperate
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    justin124 said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 40% (=)
    LAB: 33% (-4)
    LDM: 11% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)
    RFM: 3% (+1)
    UKIP: 2% (+1)

    Via
    @Kantar_UKI
    , 18-22 Feb.
    Changes w/ 21-25 Jan.

    SKS fans please explain

    DBMIVN (Don't blame me I voted Nandy)

    What has caused the sudden surge in LD support to 11%?
    Ed Davey doesn't try to squeeze three Union Jacks into the background every time he does an interview? It works for me,
    These sorts of scenes must sicken you:

    https://www.dw.com/en/eu-leaders-clash-over-hungary-and-poland-budget-veto/a-55664684
    You inadvertently make a good point. SKS should model hiimself on Merkel not on these tinsel and glitter poseurs. He's looking for an identity. Who in the world commands more respect than Angela?
    I think Starmer always looks rather uncomfortable, as if suffering from Imposter Syndrome. His manifest success from modest beginnings, his stiffness and awkwardness and even how he dresses speak of this to me.

    We have a political system where braying self conceit are rewarded rather than conscientious self doubt and introversion, though the latter tend to be much more effective at the real work, as any employer knows.
    'Blessed are the meek (not Alastair!) for they shall inherit the earth'. What SKS is doing doesn't seem to be working. Yet people seem to like the straight forward lack of obvious ego and unpretentious of Merkel. So Sir Keir had got the ingredients he's just presenting them in a gauche manner. Merkel might be the perfect template
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Er, I don't think you can add first dose and second dose together to get 8%.
    For some reason "total doses administered per 100 people" has become the standard for how progress is measured.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Er, I don't think you can add first dose and second dose together to get 8%.
    For some reason "total doses administered per 100 people" has become the standard for how progress is measured.
    This is an official release from the EU. Pretty naughty, as only 5% have any sort of protection whatsoever.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    Has to be distribution as well. It's been said before during this crisis that the NHS may not be perfect but it's custom built for this sort of thing. Someone (possibly @Foxy ?) was also sharing data the other night to the effect that the UK has a significantly better record for adult vaccination campaigns than any other country in Europe.

    Even if you've not got a serious hesitancy problem (and issues of that kind with the Oxford jab appear to be widespread) then you still need the infrastructure in place to get bulk consignments from the point of delivery from the manufacturer into individual patients' arms.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    Germany is very inefficient in administration. There is no central database, yet doctors are restricted from injecting in their surgeries, and injections have to be by doctors.

    I think Italy and Spain are doing better, but having a centralised, government system like the NHS works a lot better.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Er, I don't think you can add first dose and second dose together to get 8%.
    For some reason "total doses administered per 100 people" has become the standard for how progress is measured.
    You could just as easily go for numbers per million, but I guess numbers per hundred probably came about because people are used to percentages. Except that the need to lance everybody twice makes the straightforward use of percentages awkward, of course.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    The tweet was discussing the vaccine rollout. Unless you think that has been a success story?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706

    I *know* it’s not ‘brought back to life’ but reanimation is a great term...
    Yeah but don't really want to read about global pandemics where reanimation is involved, it's a bit too zombie apocalypse...
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Er, I don't think you can add first dose and second dose together to get 8%.
    For some reason "total doses administered per 100 people" has become the standard for how progress is measured.
    You could just as easily go for numbers per million, but I guess numbers per hundred probably came about because people are used to percentages. Except that the need to lance everybody twice makes the straightforward use of percentages awkward, of course.
    That J&J is single dose also affects things. There's no perfect way.

    But however you cut it, most of the EU states are failing right now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    edited February 2021
    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Er, I don't think you can add first dose and second dose together to get 8%.
    Maybe they have been doing some folk with their second doses first?

    *thud*
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Quite a few stories of Tory tax rebellions tonight (Telly/FT).

    Did the backbenchers expect spending close to half a trillion would come without a price tag?

    Yes. At least, not one that should be paid whilst they are in parliament, even if that is decades (there may well be arguments for 'not now', but let's not kid ourselves, for most of these types 'not now' really means 'never', except in highly specific areas)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    RobD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Er, I don't think you can add first dose and second dose together to get 8%.
    For some reason "total doses administered per 100 people" has become the standard for how progress is measured.
    This is an official release from the EU. Pretty naughty, as only 5% have any sort of protection whatsoever.
    Oh, I don't disagree. But the Worldometer number is also doses administered per 100 adults, so while I think it's stupid (and increasingly misleading), it's not that the EU is that out of line with how other people are reporting.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Time to outlaw all arranged marriages.

    The Jewish Marriage Council (JMC) has said that while young Jews from a strictly Orthodox background are not “forced” to marry, they can nevertheless feel “coerced”.

    In its astonishing admission, the Hendon-based organisation appeared to be trying to justify the traditional Charedi shidduch system of families working together for their children to meet in arranged introductions.

    “This is done with consent from both parties which is a requirement under Jewish law,” said the JMC. “While there may be instances whereby one might feel coerced, we have not come across any party feeling as if they have been forced.”


    https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/charedim-not-forced-but-can-be-coerced-into-marriage-jewish-group-says/

    Oh thank goodness, it's all totally fine if there is coercion. Goodness knows when intense coercion cross the line.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    The tweet was discussing the vaccine rollout. Unless you think that has been a success story?
    No its been a complete failure.

    Not a disaster.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    Bollocks is it. It was so transparent when they released a list of over a hundred countries that were exempt from the export ban.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,438
    edited February 2021
    Don’t know why, I mean it’s not as if anyone in Europe seems to want the AZ vaccine...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    The tweet was discussing the vaccine rollout. Unless you think that has been a success story?
    No its been a complete failure.

    Not a disaster.
    Almost synonyms.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    We had our massive wave of cases prior to the start of mass vaccination. That's 30k deaths or so. I hope they do not have a massive rise in cases whilst they have not yet been able to get mass vaccination going fully, though at the least they have more covered than we did at the start of our our second/third wave.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    Has to be distribution as well. It's been said before during this crisis that the NHS may not be perfect but it's custom built for this sort of thing. Someone (possibly @Foxy ?) was also sharing data the other night to the effect that the UK has a significantly better record for adult vaccination campaigns than any other country in Europe.

    Even if you've not got a serious hesitancy problem (and issues of that kind with the Oxford jab appear to be widespread) then you still need the infrastructure in place to get bulk consignments from the point of delivery from the manufacturer into individual patients' arms.
    It's shocking that the EU has 20 million doses - that's enough for almost 7% of their adult population - sitting around unadministered. Assuming that the doses have been distributed to the constituent nations (which is not guaranteed of course), then we're moving on from the failure of the EU itself, to the failure of the French, Germans, Spanish, etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    It's probably a subtler method of diverting blame - rollout has still been slow (albeit supply has been an issue for most of it), and if it is implied that that is down to mass refusals alone, it means the Commission and member states have nothing to answer for.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    The tweet was discussing the vaccine rollout. Unless you think that has been a success story?
    No its been a complete failure.

    Not a disaster.
    Almost synonyms.
    Yes, I couldn't work out if he was saying "no it wasn't as bad as that, it was only..." or "it was even worse than that, it was..."
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209
    There is no Moderna manufacturing anywhere in Europe yet. And when there is (from April), it will be in Switzerland, not the EU.

    So, I'm not sure what she's on about.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited February 2021

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    The tweet was discussing the vaccine rollout. Unless you think that has been a success story?
    No its been a complete failure.

    Not a disaster.
    Semantics - disaster does not align to some universally agreed standard, so it is just opinion one way or another if the failure meets that standard.

    Also, sometimes we can see disasters coming before they arrive.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    Has to be distribution as well. It's been said before during this crisis that the NHS may not be perfect but it's custom built for this sort of thing. Someone (possibly @Foxy ?) was also sharing data the other night to the effect that the UK has a significantly better record for adult vaccination campaigns than any other country in Europe.

    Even if you've not got a serious hesitancy problem (and issues of that kind with the Oxford jab appear to be widespread) then you still need the infrastructure in place to get bulk consignments from the point of delivery from the manufacturer into individual patients' arms.
    It's shocking that the EU has 20 million doses - that's enough for almost 7% of their adult population - sitting around unadministered. Assuming that the doses have been distributed to the constituent nations (which is not guaranteed of course), then we're moving on from the failure of the EU itself, to the failure of the French, Germans, Spanish, etc.
    But most of those doses are quasi ineffective and or/ dangerous for the over 65s who are being jabbed, Merkel confirmed as much today.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    rcs1000 said:

    There is no Moderna manufacturing anywhere in Europe yet. And when there is (from April), it will be in Switzerland, not the EU.

    So, I'm not sure what she's on about.
    The pilot line is up and running aiui, but it's low volume and in Switzerland which obviously isn't in the EU. The fill and finish for Moderna is done in Switzerland and Spain so maybe she's referring to the Spanish production.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    She's also told us her team accidentally triggered article 16 of course. A more eloquent Boris, except Boris has listened to scientists and clamped down on his diversionary talk when Covid is the subject.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,236
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    It's probably a subtler method of diverting blame - rollout has still been slow (albeit supply has been an issue for most of it), and if it is implied that that is down to mass refusals alone, it means the Commission and member states have nothing to answer for.
    One theory is that AZ was only authorised in DE for under 65s, and they have not got the infra / admin in place for going now for a group lower in the risk hierarchy. That sounds convincing.

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1364970993479991296
    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1364970995828809741
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kle4 said:

    Quite a few stories of Tory tax rebellions tonight (Telly/FT).

    Did the backbenchers expect spending close to half a trillion would come without a price tag?

    Yes. At least, not one that should be paid whilst they are in parliament, even if that is decades (there may well be arguments for 'not now', but let's not kid ourselves, for most of these types 'not now' really means 'never', except in highly specific areas)
    Sunak seems to be trying to rescue the tories' reputation for fiscal responsibility. I mean FFS. Talk about a lost cause.

    Jeez.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    We had our massive wave of cases prior to the start of mass vaccination. That's 30k deaths or so. I hope they do not have a massive rise in cases whilst they have not yet been able to get mass vaccination going fully, though at the least they have more covered than we did at the start of our our second/third wave.
    They are - back of a fag packet - at least four-six weeks away from vaccinations having any effect, if the UK experience is anything to go by.

    Italy is on 30,000 daily cases, France is on 25,000, Italy has relaxed lockdown, France never had one (in this wave). It doesn't look good.

    I don't think they have any choice but to go for another precautionary lockdown now, and wait for the vaccines to kick in. And pray. Otherwise they end up like Czhechia - or the UK in early January
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,019
    ClippP said:



    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?

    They want power for power's sake.

    In the short term: to keep the gravy coming.

    In the longer term: to protect the rentier class.

    Everything else is secondary, although they'd fight pretty hard to keep the monarchy (as the shining bastion of the rentier class).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Mango said:

    ClippP said:



    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?

    They want power for power's sake.

    In the short term: to keep the gravy coming.

    In the longer term: to protect the rentier class.

    Everything else is secondary, although they'd fight pretty hard to keep the monarchy (as the shining bastion of the rentier class).
    Do you really believe this bullshit?

    Sad
  • I *know* it’s not ‘brought back to life’ but reanimation is a great term...
    Yeah but don't really want to read about global pandemics where reanimation is involved, it's a bit too zombie apocalypse...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLJ8Z3PDEGU
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    The tweet was discussing the vaccine rollout. Unless you think that has been a success story?
    No its been a complete failure.

    Not a disaster.
    Semantics - disaster does not align to some universally agreed standard, so it is just opinion one way or another if the failure meets that standard.

    Also, sometimes we can see disasters coming before they arrive.
    By disaster I thought it was meant that already high deaths would be skyrocketing because millions of Europeans are unprotected by vaccinations.

    Imagine my surprise, then, when it transpires deaths are the same (France) or in Spain's case far, far lower than ours.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    It's probably a subtler method of diverting blame - rollout has still been slow (albeit supply has been an issue for most of it), and if it is implied that that is down to mass refusals alone, it means the Commission and member states have nothing to answer for.
    One theory is that AZ was only authorised in DE for under 65s, and they have not got the infra / admin in place for going now for a group lower in the risk hierarchy. That sounds convincing.

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1364970993479991296
    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1364970995828809741
    He's a pathetic Remoaner. One of the worst. Ignore
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    You are not currently eligible to book through this service :(
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,823
    ydoethur said:

    ClippP said:

    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:



    How do you know that? It's a vicious circle. They don't get covered, so we don't know what they are saying, which leads to them not having anything to contribute.

    Usual story. Those in charge of the agenda (the government) have everything their way.

    I wouldn't worry about the frequent "what's the point of the Lib Dems?" from some on here. It's part of the background noise - the Party doesn't have to justify its existence to Conservative activists.

    Try asking them "what's the point of the Conservative Party?".
    Quite lately, and in the medium term, it has been about winning power and empowering individuals over vested interests.
    How can you say that, when all the vested interests are Johnson, his cronies and his financial backers?

    At some stage people will see through all this Conservative spin for the nonsense it is.

    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?
    To make money?
    To keep Labour out.
    And I think the reverse is probably also largely true.
  • Mango said:

    ClippP said:



    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?

    They want power for power's sake.

    In the short term: to keep the gravy coming.

    In the longer term: to protect the rentier class.

    Everything else is secondary, although they'd fight pretty hard to keep the monarchy (as the shining bastion of the rentier class).
    Serendipitously this popped up on my Twitter timeline today.

    https://twitter.com/cjfdillow/status/1364856451781582850?s=21
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1364970179344629768

    The first time Labour mentioned this was 30 mins after it started I think

    Really not doing the lady any favours with that graphic.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited February 2021

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    The tweet was discussing the vaccine rollout. Unless you think that has been a success story?
    No its been a complete failure.

    Not a disaster.
    Semantics - disaster does not align to some universally agreed standard, so it is just opinion one way or another if the failure meets that standard.

    Also, sometimes we can see disasters coming before they arrive.
    By disaster I thought it was meant that already high deaths would be skyrocketing because millions of Europeans are unprotected by vaccinations.

    Imagine my surprise, then, when it transpires deaths are the same (France) or in Spain's case far, far lower than ours.
    There has been some questioning of Spain's death stats. As, indeed, there has been of almost every country, from the UK to New York to Mexico to SA, Russia and China

    https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-07-31/the-real-covid-19-death-toll-in-spain-at-least-44868.html

    Any opinion on Covid based on official death stats needs to be heavily caveatted, for about a year. When we will know the truth (unless the plague persists into 4th and 5th waves)

    Also, and FWIW, Spain overtook the UK in deaths today: 345 v 323. Spain is a significantly smaller country, by population
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    We had our massive wave of cases prior to the start of mass vaccination. That's 30k deaths or so. I hope they do not have a massive rise in cases whilst they have not yet been able to get mass vaccination going fully, though at the least they have more covered than we did at the start of our our second/third wave.
    They are - back of a fag packet - at least four-six weeks away from vaccinations having any effect, if the UK experience is anything to go by.

    Italy is on 30,000 daily cases, France is on 25,000, Italy has relaxed lockdown, France never had one (in this wave). It doesn't look good.

    I don't think they have any choice but to go for another precautionary lockdown now, and wait for the vaccines to kick in. And pray. Otherwise they end up like Czhechia - or the UK in early January
    The UK Government threw in the towel and went into lockdown in early January. It doesn't look like there's going to be any significant easing beyond schools until at least 12 April (gyms, shops, beauty, al fresco dining.) That's three full months.

    If some of these countries are unlucky and/or insufficiently cautious then they could easily still be in lockdown when, pray God, we dump nearly all the restrictions and re-open nightclubs in late June.*

    What effect this may have on public opinion just on the other side of the Channel can only be guessed at.

    * For fear of tempting fate, yes, I know, novel variants etc. - it could all still go to shit - but I'm trying to be optimistic at the moment.
  • kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    The tweet was discussing the vaccine rollout. Unless you think that has been a success story?
    No its been a complete failure.

    Not a disaster.
    Semantics - disaster does not align to some universally agreed standard, so it is just opinion one way or another if the failure meets that standard.

    Also, sometimes we can see disasters coming before they arrive.
    "Now you're talking semantics. What if I told you insane was working fifty hours a week in some office for fifty years... at the end of which they tell you to piss off? Ending up in some retirement village... hoping to die before suffering the indignity of trying to make it to the toilet on time. Wouldn't you consider that to be insane?"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Mango said:

    ClippP said:



    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?

    They want power for power's sake.

    In the short term: to keep the gravy coming.

    In the longer term: to protect the rentier class.

    Everything else is secondary, although they'd fight pretty hard to keep the monarchy (as the shining bastion of the rentier class).
    Serendipitously this popped up on my Twitter timeline today.

    https://twitter.com/cjfdillow/status/1364856451781582850?s=21
    Liked purely for good use of one of my favourite words - serendipitously.

    Tragically, I find it hard to work into everyday communication, at least extemporaneously.

    *knocked off another favourite there though.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    We had our massive wave of cases prior to the start of mass vaccination. That's 30k deaths or so. I hope they do not have a massive rise in cases whilst they have not yet been able to get mass vaccination going fully, though at the least they have more covered than we did at the start of our our second/third wave.
    They are - back of a fag packet - at least four-six weeks away from vaccinations having any effect, if the UK experience is anything to go by.

    Italy is on 30,000 daily cases, France is on 25,000, Italy has relaxed lockdown, France never had one (in this wave). It doesn't look good.

    I don't think they have any choice but to go for another precautionary lockdown now, and wait for the vaccines to kick in. And pray. Otherwise they end up like Czhechia - or the UK in early January
    The UK Government threw in the towel and went into lockdown in early January. It doesn't look like there's going to be any significant easing beyond schools until at least 12 April (gyms, shops, beauty, al fresco dining.) That's three full months.

    If some of these countries are unlucky and/or insufficiently cautious then they could easily still be in lockdown when, pray God, we dump nearly all the restrictions and re-open nightclubs in late June.*

    What effect this may have on public opinion just on the other side of the Channel can only be guessed at.

    * For fear of tempting fate, yes, I know, novel variants etc. - it could all still go to shit - but I'm trying to be optimistic at the moment.
    They have Kentish Covid, and the even worse Safferbug in Moselle, Koln, Tirol, etc

    We in the UK have seen what this variant does. They must surely lockdown
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    felix said:

    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.

    Spanish deaths yesterday were 40.

    Maybe they don't see the urgency.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    felix said:

    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.

    Spanish deaths yesterday were 40.

    Maybe they don't see the urgency.
    If worldometer is right they have cases and deaths moving in the right direction, but a lot more than 40. ANd given of big european nations only and we and Italy have currently done worse, Spain should see the urgency.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited February 2021
    kle4 said:

    Mango said:

    ClippP said:



    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?

    They want power for power's sake.

    In the short term: to keep the gravy coming.

    In the longer term: to protect the rentier class.

    Everything else is secondary, although they'd fight pretty hard to keep the monarchy (as the shining bastion of the rentier class).
    Serendipitously this popped up on my Twitter timeline today.

    https://twitter.com/cjfdillow/status/1364856451781582850?s=21
    Liked purely for good use of one of my favourite words - serendipitously.

    Tragically, I find it hard to work into everyday communication, at least extemporaneously.

    *knocked off another favourite there though.
    When I was a kid our neighbour and good friend had a cat called "Serendipity".
    Does anyone know an adjective and an adverb for "topiary"? topiarity? topiaryisly? Topiaryishness?

    Another query: what does A. Wakefield think about the jab??
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    felix said:

    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.

    Spanish deaths yesterday were 40.

    Maybe they don't see the urgency.
    345 according to this.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    https://twitter.com/UKLabour/status/1364970179344629768

    The first time Labour mentioned this was 30 mins after it started I think

    Really not doing the lady any favours with that graphic.
    Has Dodds actually seen where the British economy is right now? As labour cheered enthusiastically?

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    felix said:

    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.

    Spanish deaths yesterday were 40.

    Maybe they don't see the urgency.
    That's a date of death figure which is updated for two weeks. By reporting date 345 deaths were added.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited February 2021
    RobD said:

    felix said:

    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.

    Spanish deaths yesterday were 40.

    Maybe they don't see the urgency.
    345 according to this.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/
    Ah OK. Weird. But fair enough. I read something wrong apols
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429

    Mango said:

    ClippP said:



    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?

    They want power for power's sake.

    In the short term: to keep the gravy coming.

    In the longer term: to protect the rentier class.

    Everything else is secondary, although they'd fight pretty hard to keep the monarchy (as the shining bastion of the rentier class).
    Serendipitously this popped up on my Twitter timeline today.

    https://twitter.com/cjfdillow/status/1364856451781582850?s=21
    Some of the most enthusiastic buy-to-lettors I know are leftwing. Wasn't Tyson, firebrand lefty ex of this parish, thus remunerated?

    Greed is not a rightwing *thing*. It is a human thing. You'd be amazed how many lefties lose ALL their principles the moment a large amount of money hoves into view.

    English Toryism is composed of many strands, from Scruton-esque thoughtful patriotism to libertarian Borisovian hedonism, with a large dash of boring nanny state be-careful TMayism. Dismissing them all as rentiers is pitiful. It's like looking at a garden and saying "it's just a load of things growing".

    It would, moreover, be like looking at the history of Labour/leftwingery in the UK and saying "it's just envious workers". I know that the leftwing tradition in Britain is much richer and nobler than that, from the Putney Debates to the Levellers to Kier Hardie and on - the political voice of the common people in Britain has done wonderful things, but has also been warped and hijacked to do bad things.

    Much like their patriotic rightwing twin.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,236
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    We had our massive wave of cases prior to the start of mass vaccination. That's 30k deaths or so. I hope they do not have a massive rise in cases whilst they have not yet been able to get mass vaccination going fully, though at the least they have more covered than we did at the start of our our second/third wave.
    They are - back of a fag packet - at least four-six weeks away from vaccinations having any effect, if the UK experience is anything to go by.

    Italy is on 30,000 daily cases, France is on 25,000, Italy has relaxed lockdown, France never had one (in this wave). It doesn't look good.

    I don't think they have any choice but to go for another precautionary lockdown now, and wait for the vaccines to kick in. And pray. Otherwise they end up like Czhechia - or the UK in early January
    The UK Government threw in the towel and went into lockdown in early January. It doesn't look like there's going to be any significant easing beyond schools until at least 12 April (gyms, shops, beauty, al fresco dining.) That's three full months.

    If some of these countries are unlucky and/or insufficiently cautious then they could easily still be in lockdown when, pray God, we dump nearly all the restrictions and re-open nightclubs in late June.*

    What effect this may have on public opinion just on the other side of the Channel can only be guessed at.

    * For fear of tempting fate, yes, I know, novel variants etc. - it could all still go to shit - but I'm trying to be optimistic at the moment.
    They have Kentish Covid, and the even worse Safferbug in Moselle, Koln, Tirol, etc

    We in the UK have seen what this variant does. They must surely lockdown
    In France more than half the cases are Thanet variant of Covid.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.

    Spanish deaths yesterday were 40.

    Maybe they don't see the urgency.
    That's a date of death figure which is updated for two weeks. By reporting date 345 deaths were added.
    Apols
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited February 2021
    Leon said:

    Mango said:

    ClippP said:



    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?

    They want power for power's sake.

    In the short term: to keep the gravy coming.

    In the longer term: to protect the rentier class.

    Everything else is secondary, although they'd fight pretty hard to keep the monarchy (as the shining bastion of the rentier class).
    Serendipitously this popped up on my Twitter timeline today.

    https://twitter.com/cjfdillow/status/1364856451781582850?s=21
    Some of the most enthusiastic buy-to-lettors I know are leftwing. Wasn't Tyson, firebrand lefty ex of this parish, thus remunerated?

    Greed is not a rightwing *thing*. It is a human thing. You'd be amazed how many lefties lose ALL their principles the moment a large amount of money hoves into view.

    English Toryism is composed of many strands, from Scruton-esque thoughtful patriotism to libertarian Borisovian hedonism, with a large dash of boring nanny state be-careful TMayism. Dismissing them all as rentiers is pitiful. It's like looking at a garden and saying "it's just a load of things growing".

    It would, moreover, be like looking at the history of Labour/leftwingery in the UK and saying "it's just envious workers". I know that the leftwing tradition in Britain is much richer and nobler than that, from the Putney Debates to the Levellers to Kier Hardie and on - the political voice of the common people in Britain has done wonderful things, but has also been warped and hijacked to do bad things.

    Much like their patriotic rightwing twin.
    Isn't that just a fancy way of saying that with parties that get 35-40% in the polls, the idea for either Labour or the Tories that their voters and members are all ideologues of the same type is completely bonkers, even if certain strands of thinking predominate?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    We had our massive wave of cases prior to the start of mass vaccination. That's 30k deaths or so. I hope they do not have a massive rise in cases whilst they have not yet been able to get mass vaccination going fully, though at the least they have more covered than we did at the start of our our second/third wave.
    They are - back of a fag packet - at least four-six weeks away from vaccinations having any effect, if the UK experience is anything to go by.

    Italy is on 30,000 daily cases, France is on 25,000, Italy has relaxed lockdown, France never had one (in this wave). It doesn't look good.

    I don't think they have any choice but to go for another precautionary lockdown now, and wait for the vaccines to kick in. And pray. Otherwise they end up like Czhechia - or the UK in early January
    The UK Government threw in the towel and went into lockdown in early January. It doesn't look like there's going to be any significant easing beyond schools until at least 12 April (gyms, shops, beauty, al fresco dining.) That's three full months.

    If some of these countries are unlucky and/or insufficiently cautious then they could easily still be in lockdown when, pray God, we dump nearly all the restrictions and re-open nightclubs in late June.*

    What effect this may have on public opinion just on the other side of the Channel can only be guessed at.

    * For fear of tempting fate, yes, I know, novel variants etc. - it could all still go to shit - but I'm trying to be optimistic at the moment.
    They have Kentish Covid, and the even worse Safferbug in Moselle, Koln, Tirol, etc

    We in the UK have seen what this variant does. They must surely lockdown
    In France more than half the cases are Thanet variant of Covid.
    Sheppey. Right county, wrong isle.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    MaxPB said:

    felix said:

    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.

    Spanish deaths yesterday were 40.

    Maybe they don't see the urgency.
    That's a date of death figure which is updated for two weeks. By reporting date 345 deaths were added.
    Apols
    It happens, no big deal. What's worrying about European numbers is that they are clearly at the start of another wave and they haven't vaccinated enough people to slow it down. That's inevitably going to result in more lockdowns and stricter rules on movement. I just hope we've done enough to avoid the same eventuality and we can keep our June 21st march to freedom.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    CON: 40% (=)
    LAB: 33% (-4)
    LDM: 11% (+1)
    GRN: 6% (+1)
    RFM: 3% (+1)
    UKIP: 2% (+1)

    Via
    @Kantar_UKI
    , 18-22 Feb.
    Changes w/ 21-25 Jan.

    SKS fans please explain

    DBMIVN (Don't blame me I voted Nandy)

    You are becoming as tiresome as the Boris rampers, picking and choosing your polls. I don't recall you commenting on yesterday's 2 point margin "outlier".
    manic keith preachers behind by between 2 or 7% when any other leader was going to be "ahead by 20%"

    Direction of travel is disastrous imo.


    You think SKS is doing well?

    Compared to Corbyn, yes.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Mango said:

    ClippP said:



    And grabbing power is not an end in itself. What do they want power for?

    They want power for power's sake.

    In the short term: to keep the gravy coming.

    In the longer term: to protect the rentier class.

    Everything else is secondary, although they'd fight pretty hard to keep the monarchy (as the shining bastion of the rentier class).
    Serendipitously this popped up on my Twitter timeline today.

    https://twitter.com/cjfdillow/status/1364856451781582850?s=21
    Some of the most enthusiastic buy-to-lettors I know are leftwing. Wasn't Tyson, firebrand lefty ex of this parish, thus remunerated?

    Greed is not a rightwing *thing*. It is a human thing. You'd be amazed how many lefties lose ALL their principles the moment a large amount of money hoves into view.

    English Toryism is composed of many strands, from Scruton-esque thoughtful patriotism to libertarian Borisovian hedonism, with a large dash of boring nanny state be-careful TMayism. Dismissing them all as rentiers is pitiful. It's like looking at a garden and saying "it's just a load of things growing".

    It would, moreover, be like looking at the history of Labour/leftwingery in the UK and saying "it's just envious workers". I know that the leftwing tradition in Britain is much richer and nobler than that, from the Putney Debates to the Levellers to Kier Hardie and on - the political voice of the common people in Britain has done wonderful things, but has also been warped and hijacked to do bad things.

    Much like their patriotic rightwing twin.
    Isn't that just a fancy way of saying that with parties that get 35-40% in the polls, the idea for either Labour or the Tories that their voters and members are all ideologues of the same type is completely bonkers, even if certain strands of thinking predominate?
    Yeah, but I quite like fancy ways of saying things.

    Confession: I am a frustrated and thwarted writer reduced to flint-knapping
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    We had our massive wave of cases prior to the start of mass vaccination. That's 30k deaths or so. I hope they do not have a massive rise in cases whilst they have not yet been able to get mass vaccination going fully, though at the least they have more covered than we did at the start of our our second/third wave.
    They are - back of a fag packet - at least four-six weeks away from vaccinations having any effect, if the UK experience is anything to go by.

    Italy is on 30,000 daily cases, France is on 25,000, Italy has relaxed lockdown, France never had one (in this wave). It doesn't look good.

    I don't think they have any choice but to go for another precautionary lockdown now, and wait for the vaccines to kick in. And pray. Otherwise they end up like Czhechia - or the UK in early January
    Things don’t sound very relaxed in Italy. The equivalent of a journey, to pick one at random, from London to South Wales, would be illegal merely as a journey in Italy, before you get onto allowed activities. And there’s an effective curfew.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,236
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    Odd, because there are plenty more people on the continent eager ;if not desperate) for the vaccine than there is supply, even with a significant proportion of people refusing. There is more to this story than mass refusals.
    It's probably a subtler method of diverting blame - rollout has still been slow (albeit supply has been an issue for most of it), and if it is implied that that is down to mass refusals alone, it means the Commission and member states have nothing to answer for.
    One theory is that AZ was only authorised in DE for under 65s, and they have not got the infra / admin in place for going now for a group lower in the risk hierarchy. That sounds convincing.

    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1364970993479991296
    https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1364970995828809741
    He's a pathetic Remoaner. One of the worst. Ignore
    He's also quite often well informed on things EU and German, and is rather more thoughtful / less starry-eyed than your normal Eurotwit.

    Been following him since about 2008.
  • This looks rather sinister to me. Does it mean the Commission reserve the right to demand sight of AZ's contracts with other parties? And to be judge and jury when it comes to blocking exports?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/Beaking_News/status/1365029936210325506

    Continuing unfolding disaster on the continent.

    ????

    The records show that France deaths are roughly comparable to UK ones.

    Spain deaths seem to be far, far lower, unless they are recording them wrong.

    Where's the disaster?
    We had our massive wave of cases prior to the start of mass vaccination. That's 30k deaths or so. I hope they do not have a massive rise in cases whilst they have not yet been able to get mass vaccination going fully, though at the least they have more covered than we did at the start of our our second/third wave.
    They are - back of a fag packet - at least four-six weeks away from vaccinations having any effect, if the UK experience is anything to go by.

    Italy is on 30,000 daily cases, France is on 25,000, Italy has relaxed lockdown, France never had one (in this wave). It doesn't look good.

    I don't think they have any choice but to go for another precautionary lockdown now, and wait for the vaccines to kick in. And pray. Otherwise they end up like Czhechia - or the UK in early January
    Things don’t sound very relaxed in Italy. The equivalent of a journey, to pick one at random, from London to South Wales, would be illegal merely as a journey in Italy, before you get onto allowed activities. And there’s an effective curfew.
    But bars, restaurants and cafes are open?

    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210201-restaurants-and-museums-reopen-as-italy-relaxes-coronavirus-curbs

    We all know indoors transmission is THE way to get it. Italy has a more benign climate than the UK but in Feb/March you still want to eat or drink indoors in much of the country, especially the more populous north. Good luck to them, but I worry. I love Italy.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited February 2021
    More Europe. This is why we left though so good luck to them on the integration project. The dig at bilateral agreements was obviously aimed at the UK as well. They really just can't seem to let it go.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    After the gargantuan scale of this screw-up we may finally have reached the limits of "More Europe" as an answer to every problem.

    Then again, people said the same kind of thing when the Eurozone crisis hit.

    There'll be some form of Health Union within a few years, won't there?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Interesting that they 'cannot allow vaccine nationalism' when the Commission has engaged in it (and accused others of), as well as defending itself by pointing out that nations could go outside their schemes and do things themselves, that is engage in vaccine nationalism if they wanted. Do the Council and Commission talk?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    After the gargantuan scale of this screw-up we may finally have reached the limits of "More Europe" as an answer to every problem.

    Then again, people said the same kind of thing when the Eurozone crisis hit.

    There'll be some form of Health Union within a few years, won't there?
    At least some of those calling for a Health Union are doing so because they acknowledge there was a problem, a la Guy Verhofstadt. People might diagree with his solution, but at least that position doesn't deny a problem.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    In Spain AZN is being given to health worker under 55. I had a blood test on Wednesday and the nurse told me he'd been jabbed. Have not heard tales of refusals. However, a number of Spanish friends on FB are very vaccine sceptic [ of all brands] - people who in other respects seem quite intelligent.

    Spanish deaths yesterday were 40.

    Maybe they don't see the urgency.
    Wrong - there were 58 deaths recorded in Andalucía alone. There is huge urgency and fears that another wave will hit around Easter time.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    He's unwisely competing with Sony's latest PS5 announcements.
This discussion has been closed.