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As expected Johnson is taking a cautious approach but at least there’s an end in sight – politicalbe

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  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    edited February 2021

    Is she? Guernsey's CMO, who's had a pretty good pandemic, described it as "epidemiologically illiterate"

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1363890935067783173?s=20

    Peston is correct in this case and the fact Johnson said that is surely a relief to everybody.
    Yes, I actually missed that because I was on the phone to a client. It's an unequivocal statement and a very rational one.

    P.S. You need to virtually shake my hand upon losing our sportsman's bet.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,512
    Selebian said:

    kinabalu said:

    From the previous thread.

    Lots of man love ❤️ for Boris, for his roadmap and for his luxuriant hair on PB this afternoon. Some positive swooning. Bless.

    And bloody well deserved too. We can all quibble over the exact speed of the unlocking, but we're now in a position to escape this thing faster than almost all countries that are not led by a certain Boris Johnson.
    Before quibbling over the exact speed of the unlocking, you ought to take off your hat and bow your head for the tens of thousands killed by Boris Johnson's negligence to date.
    Post of the day. A shard of ice in the cup of frothing adulation.
    More like a dollop of pigeon shit in your morning coffee.
    Why do you get so animated when posters critique Johnson.

    Is he your dad?
    There's a non-negligible chance of that for all of us under a certain age!

    Edit: Ah, you're quicker @MarqueeMark
    In like Flynn me. I get it from my dad.

    Ooops,
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,771
    Cookie said:



    DavidL said:

    Primary 1-3 were back at the school behind my house today. Lots of happy laughter, if not from the teachers.

    It really seems to me that those spending so long in close proximity with children too young to understand social distancing ought to have been vaccinated before the schools went back.

    Two issues with that: 1. as far as I understand, there is very little evident that children spread it significantly, and 2. any vaccination of a teacher in her 20s who is unlikely to suffer seriously with it pushes someone in his 60s who may become seriously ill or die back in the queue.

    The argument isn't cut and dried either way, as far as I'm concerned. I'm just pointing out why the alternative approach might have a case too.
    I think that that was certainly true of the original virus but I have read a number of reports linked to on here suggesting that the Kent variant is much more likely to infect children who are capable of transmitting it to others. Given that one of the concerns about opening schools (which I fervently support for educational reasons) is onward transmission it does not seem an unreasonable precaution to vaccinate the staff who will be exposed.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,754
    ydoethur said:

    Now this is confusing, as this is not AIUI what Johnson has said.
    https://twitter.com/educationgovuk/status/1363886211987865601

    I think this is less interesting than it first appears.

    Secondary school pupils will need negative covid tests to return to school. The sheer logistical impossibility of doing 1000+ tests in a day for schools will mean they can't all have them on the same day.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,881
    Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    Primary 1-3 were back at the school behind my house today. Lots of happy laughter, if not from the teachers.

    It really seems to me that those spending so long in close proximity with children too young to understand social distancing ought to have been vaccinated before the schools went back.

    I just don't understand why they haven't been vaccinated. Apparently there's 50,000 teachers in Scotland across early learning, primary, and secondary, so that would have been one day's worth of vaccines when going at full tilt.
    500,000 teachers in the UK. That would have taken a day.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    edited February 2021
    Cookie said:



    DavidL said:

    Primary 1-3 were back at the school behind my house today. Lots of happy laughter, if not from the teachers.

    It really seems to me that those spending so long in close proximity with children too young to understand social distancing ought to have been vaccinated before the schools went back.

    Two issues with that: 1. as far as I understand, there is very little evident that children spread it significantly, and 2. any vaccination of a teacher in her 20s who is unlikely to suffer seriously with it pushes someone in his 60s who may become seriously ill or die back in the queue.

    The argument isn't cut and dried either way, as far as I'm concerned. I'm just pointing out why the alternative approach might have a case too.
    I’m more concerned, re. Vaccines, with this idea you need to continue to be careful while building immunity, which isn’t possible in a school.

    Equally, I’m not seeing surges in deaths among medical staff who have been vaccinated (having looked) which I’ll take as a hopeful sign.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    Cookie said:

    ydoethur said:

    Now this is confusing, as this is not AIUI what Johnson has said.
    https://twitter.com/educationgovuk/status/1363886211987865601

    I think this is less interesting than it first appears.

    Secondary school pupils will need negative covid tests to return to school. The sheer logistical impossibility of doing 1000+ tests in a day for schools will mean they can't all have them on the same day.
    So they’re lying when they say all schools will be open to all pupils from 8th March? Because they cannot both be true.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,771

    Is she? Guernsey's CMO, who's had a pretty good pandemic, described it as "epidemiologically illiterate"

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1363890935067783173?s=20

    Peston is correct in this case and the fact Johnson said that is surely a relief to everybody.
    I've read that three times. "Peston is correct". Wow.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,273
    To my surprise, this timeline seems cautious and unlikely to be too fast.
    The biggest risk will be opening up schools I'd guess.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,062
    Leon said:

    Alistair said:

    West Lothian. Absolute scenes


    It would be good to have x AND y axes with proper numbers, before we all panic
    X is time, and Y is number of cases.

    You can panic now if you like.
  • I thought Boris's announcement was at 7pm.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Is she? Guernsey's CMO, who's had a pretty good pandemic, described it as "epidemiologically illiterate"

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1363890935067783173?s=20

    Peston is correct in this case and the fact Johnson said that is surely a relief to everybody.
    Yes, I actually missed that because I was on the phone to a client. It's an unequivocal statement and a very rational one.

    P.S. You need to virtually shake my hand upon losing our sportsman's bet.
    Yep hands up. You win. acknowledged.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,923

    I thought Boris's announcement was at 7pm.

    There is a press conference then.
  • I thought Boris's announcement was at 7pm.

    That is from no 10 to the nation
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,090

    I think it's safe to say Boris seems to have made a a fuller recovery from his Covid symptoms now. He couldn't do beyond half an hour in the Chamber last year, now he's coming up to two hours and still going strong.

    Great big powerful man, isn't he?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    It does set the government a good target of getting every adult a first jab by May 31st, if June 21st is the full reopening. It's a really good target date to have in mind as well given the new supply of Moderna and Novavax we're getting in April.

    Honestly I think the government has effectively set the 31st of May as an unofficial deadline to get all adults their first doses. We've brought the other target forwards by two weeks so it means there are 6 weeks, effectively, to get all under 50s their first doses. That's around 4m first doses per week, it is 100% possible to do that.

    What are you thoughts on the lamentable vaccination stats today? The expected supply bottleneck (anticipated a few days ago) or something more sinister?
    I expect Pfizer doses are being held back right now to build a buffer, maybe around 100k per day for two weeks or so.
    As I said this morning, my hospital has now stopped new Pfizer jabs and is holding supply for the second jabs.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 831
    Cookie said:



    DavidL said:

    Primary 1-3 were back at the school behind my house today. Lots of happy laughter, if not from the teachers.

    It really seems to me that those spending so long in close proximity with children too young to understand social distancing ought to have been vaccinated before the schools went back.

    Two issues with that: 1. as far as I understand, there is very little evident that children spread it significantly, and 2. any vaccination of a teacher in her 20s who is unlikely to suffer seriously with it pushes someone in his 60s who may become seriously ill or die back in the queue.

    The argument isn't cut and dried either way, as far as I'm concerned. I'm just pointing out why the alternative approach might have a case too.
    Recent ONS data shows children at similar infection levels as adults, and Kent Covid is suspected of gaining its transmission advantage from being better at spreading through children (albeit still with very low likelihood of serious illness).
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    What about lap-dancing clubs? Is there a Step for that?

    Surely lap dancers are essential workers, who got their (anti-COVID) jabs weeks ago?
    A veritable line-up of willing pricks one would have thought.
    I'm sure the lap-dancing industry has been kept abreast of the situation.
    Are they coping with the Brazilian variant?
    Not sure, but I heard it was a close shave.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,771
    Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    Primary 1-3 were back at the school behind my house today. Lots of happy laughter, if not from the teachers.

    It really seems to me that those spending so long in close proximity with children too young to understand social distancing ought to have been vaccinated before the schools went back.

    I just don't understand why they haven't been vaccinated. Apparently there's 50,000 teachers in Scotland across early learning, primary, and secondary, so that would have been one day's worth of vaccines when going at full tilt.
    Maybe twice that if you include class room assistants and school staff but yes, the numbers are not particularly challenging and they would be easily organised for rapid vaccination.
  • Is it no unis back for this academic year?

    If the case doesn't suprise me, having 100,000 of plague spreaders moving around the country.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Mark Harper asks why the need for any further restrictions at all when at end April all vaccination groups 1-9 will be done and these groups account for 99% of Covid deaths and 80% of Covid hospitalisations.

    An excellent question because it strikes at the very legality of all this and Johnson's bumbling response - that not all will be vaccinated (i.e. younger people and vaccine-decliners) and some of those that have been jabbed will have insufficient protection - is simply not good enough in my opinion.

    Because bringing forward dates of relaxations in response to data, is going to be one hell of a lot easier than pushing them back.
    That`s not what Johnson said. Wish he had said that.
    I’m pretty sure that’s what they’re thinking in government, they don’t want to have to push any commitments so they’re being slightly pessimistic at the moment, while hoping to see cases fall sharply in the coming weeks.
    I stand by my prediction that the medical situation will improve much faster, and the government will come under huge pressure to advance the timescale. It’s possible they already have in mind the possibility of skipping forward, but also possible that they end up trying to defend their timetable beyond the point that would be sensible.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Is she? Guernsey's CMO, who's had a pretty good pandemic, described it as "epidemiologically illiterate"

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1363890935067783173?s=20

    Peston is correct in this case and the fact Johnson said that is surely a relief to everybody.
    Yes, I actually missed that because I was on the phone to a client. It's an unequivocal statement and a very rational one.

    P.S. You need to virtually shake my hand upon losing our sportsman's bet.
    Yep hands up. You win. acknowledged.

    Thanks sir. As I said to Francis earlier, I'm sure you are happy to lose the 'wager' – and I hope you enjoy a few pints on w/c 12 April.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,548
    TOPPING said:

    Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    Primary 1-3 were back at the school behind my house today. Lots of happy laughter, if not from the teachers.

    It really seems to me that those spending so long in close proximity with children too young to understand social distancing ought to have been vaccinated before the schools went back.

    I just don't understand why they haven't been vaccinated. Apparently there's 50,000 teachers in Scotland across early learning, primary, and secondary, so that would have been one day's worth of vaccines when going at full tilt.
    500,000 teachers in the UK. That would have taken a day.
    And the bus drivers, the catering staff, cleaners and groundsmen?

    Everyone will want to make exceptions, the easiest response is to get the rollout going as quickly as we can have the vaccines delivered.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345

    Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    What about lap-dancing clubs? Is there a Step for that?

    Surely lap dancers are essential workers, who got their (anti-COVID) jabs weeks ago?
    A veritable line-up of willing pricks one would have thought.
    I'm sure the lap-dancing industry has been kept abreast of the situation.
    Are they coping with the Brazilian variant?
    Not sure, but I heard it was a close shave.
    It’s waxing strong at the moment.
  • Stocky said:

    Stocky said:

    What about lap-dancing clubs? Is there a Step for that?

    Surely lap dancers are essential workers, who got their (anti-COVID) jabs weeks ago?
    A veritable line-up of willing pricks one would have thought.
    I'm sure the lap-dancing industry has been kept abreast of the situation.
    Are they coping with the Brazilian variant?
    A friend tells me that variant is now less common in those places. They have taken a bald approach to its eradication.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437

    Is it no unis back for this academic year?

    If the case doesn't suprise me, having 100,000 of plague spreaders moving around the country.

    It looks that way...

    But I know quite a few students who have moved back to their student houses in Newcastle in recent weeks. The way they see it, they're paying for them so they'd rather spend some time with their friends as a "household".
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Is she? Guernsey's CMO, who's had a pretty good pandemic, described it as "epidemiologically illiterate"

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1363890935067783173?s=20

    Peston is correct in this case and the fact Johnson said that is surely a relief to everybody.
    Yes, I actually missed that because I was on the phone to a client. It's an unequivocal statement and a very rational one.

    P.S. You need to virtually shake my hand upon losing our sportsman's bet.
    Yep hands up. You win. acknowledged.

    Thanks sir. As I said to Francis earlier, I'm sure you are happy to lose the 'wager' – and I hope you enjoy a few pints on w/c 12 April.
    Yep, likewise.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859
    Stocky said:

    In Step 2 is says "Self-contained accommodation (household only)" - does this mean UK holiday lets are on from that date? If not - what does it mean?

    It means no bookings from multiple households.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,377

    Is it no unis back for this academic year?

    If the case doesn't suprise me, having 100,000 of plague spreaders moving around the country.

    Practical courses that need to be done to complete degree will be back so def final years in chem, phys, bio, prob engineering etc. I know we have been planning lab classes for pharmacologists.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Edinburgh case figures.



    Yes, this seems sensible to be sending children back to school.


    Cases or hospitalisations?
    Case.
  • Is it no unis back for this academic year?

    If the case doesn't suprise me, having 100,000 of plague spreaders moving around the country.

    Practical courses that need to be done to complete degree will be back so def final years in chem, phys, bio, prob engineering etc. I know we have been planning lab classes for pharmacologists.
    Yup, pages 31 and 32 of the document.

    Almost celebrating here, tbf.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,377
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Mark Harper asks why the need for any further restrictions at all when at end April all vaccination groups 1-9 will be done and these groups account for 99% of Covid deaths and 80% of Covid hospitalisations.

    An excellent question because it strikes at the very legality of all this and Johnson's bumbling response - that not all will be vaccinated (i.e. younger people and vaccine-decliners) and some of those that have been jabbed will have insufficient protection - is simply not good enough in my opinion.

    Because bringing forward dates of relaxations in response to data, is going to be one hell of a lot easier than pushing them back.
    That`s not what Johnson said. Wish he had said that.
    I’m pretty sure that’s what they’re thinking in government, they don’t want to have to push any commitments so they’re being slightly pessimistic at the moment, while hoping to see cases fall sharply in the coming weeks.
    I stand by my prediction that the medical situation will improve much faster, and the government will come under huge pressure to advance the timescale. It’s possible they already have in mind the possibility of skipping forward, but also possible that they end up trying to defend their timetable beyond the point that would be sensible.
    Certainly hope this happens. It will be odd if admissions fall to double figures or lower, and hospitals return to having few covid patients, but there is no possibility of advancing the release.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,548
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Mark Harper asks why the need for any further restrictions at all when at end April all vaccination groups 1-9 will be done and these groups account for 99% of Covid deaths and 80% of Covid hospitalisations.

    An excellent question because it strikes at the very legality of all this and Johnson's bumbling response - that not all will be vaccinated (i.e. younger people and vaccine-decliners) and some of those that have been jabbed will have insufficient protection - is simply not good enough in my opinion.

    Because bringing forward dates of relaxations in response to data, is going to be one hell of a lot easier than pushing them back.
    That`s not what Johnson said. Wish he had said that.
    I’m pretty sure that’s what they’re thinking in government, they don’t want to have to push any commitments so they’re being slightly pessimistic at the moment, while hoping to see cases fall sharply in the coming weeks.
    I stand by my prediction that the medical situation will improve much faster, and the government will come under huge pressure to advance the timescale. It’s possible they already have in mind the possibility of skipping forward, but also possible that they end up trying to defend their timetable beyond the point that would be sensible.
    We will see more in the Budget in a couple of weeks’ time, but the Chancellor definitely wants the country back to something approaching normality as soon as possible.

    There’s several billion a week being lost to the Treasury by keeping things closed, if cases subside sufficiently they’ll bring things forward - even if only by a few days.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,196

    Is she? Guernsey's CMO, who's had a pretty good pandemic, described it as "epidemiologically illiterate"

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1363890935067783173?s=20

    Peston is correct in this case and the fact Johnson said that is surely a relief to everybody.
    Yes, I actually missed that because I was on the phone to a client. It's an unequivocal statement and a very rational one.

    P.S. You need to virtually shake my hand upon losing our sportsman's bet.
    Yep hands up. You win. acknowledged.

    Thanks sir. As I said to Francis earlier, I'm sure you are happy to lose the 'wager' – and I hope you enjoy a few pints on w/c 12 April.
    Yep, likewise.
    You should have specified full pub opening - not just the garden. I said so at the time.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,026
    edited February 2021
    I think it's all too slow, because of the impact on mental health and the economy. Boris was obviously scarred by his experience last year, so he's making the obvious mistake this year. I'd have three weeks not five between each phase, and merge phases 2 and 3 and 4 and 5. Still, at least critics in the party have something to shoot at now.

    I imagine the government will implement Phase 1 and maybe 2 as planned, but I think after that, unless of course there's a massive spike in cases, the pressure to open up will grow and they'll have to revise the remainder of the timetable.

    Also, as others have noticed, people are more and more ignoring the restrictions they don't like anyway. And as the weather gets better, that'll only increase.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Gaussian said:

    DavidL said:

    Primary 1-3 were back at the school behind my house today. Lots of happy laughter, if not from the teachers.

    It really seems to me that those spending so long in close proximity with children too young to understand social distancing ought to have been vaccinated before the schools went back.

    I just don't understand why they haven't been vaccinated. Apparently there's 50,000 teachers in Scotland across early learning, primary, and secondary, so that would have been one day's worth of vaccines when going at full tilt.
    500,000 teachers in the UK. That would have taken a day.
    And the bus drivers, the catering staff, cleaners and groundsmen?

    Everyone will want to make exceptions, the easiest response is to get the rollout going as quickly as we can have the vaccines delivered.
    Yup, just do it faster. I'm confident that these milestones line up to the vaccination programme expectations. By May 31st we should be in a place where all adults should have received their first dose.
  • I would like to get excited about the announcement but I've lost a bit of confidence we won't go backwards again, and it's still too far off for me to be thrilled, so for now I'll just try and be positive that my friends and neighbours can get their kids properly educated in a fortnight and leave it at that.
  • No earlier than mid-July if you tell them mid-April......

    https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1363899291727724544?s=20
  • How irrelevant is Starmer? Is he ever going to say anything worthwhile?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Fishing said:

    I think it's all too slow, because of the impact on mental health and the economy. Boris was obviously scarred by his experience last year, so he's making the obvious mistake this year. I'd have three weeks not five between each phase, and merge phases 2 and 3 and 4 and 5. Still, at least critics in the party have something to shoot at now.

    I imagine the government will implement Phase 1 and maybe 2 as planned, but I think after that, unless of course there's a massive spike in cases, the pressure to open up will grow and they'll have to revise the remainder of the timetable.

    Also, as others have noticed, people are more and more ignoring the restrictions they don't like anyway. And as the weather gets better, that'll only increase.

    Yes, I think phases 3-5 might actually come sooner if the vaccine programme is going well and COVID hospitalisations have reached double figures per day.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437

    I would like to get excited about the announcement but I've lost a bit of confidence we won't go backwards again, and it's still too far off for me to be thrilled, so for now I'll just try and be positive that my friends and neighbours can get their kids properly educated in a fortnight and leave it at that.

    Exactly my thoughts as well
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2021

    How irrelevant is Starmer? Is he ever going to say anything worthwhile?

    That he's winding up the Labour Party and becoming a double-glazing salesman? Sorry. Salesperson.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,967
    This should considerably speed up the approval process in the US for any vaccines modified for worrying mutations.

    https://twitter.com/AlecGaffney/status/1363898453332553729
  • Fishing said:

    I think it's all too slow, because of the impact on mental health and the economy. Boris was obviously scarred by his experience last year, so he's making the obvious mistake this year. I'd have three weeks not five between each phase, and merge phases 2 and 3 and 4 and 5. Still, at least critics in the party have something to shoot at now.

    I imagine the government will implement Phase 1 and maybe 2 as planned, but I think after that, unless of course there's a massive spike in cases, the pressure to open up will grow and they'll have to revise the remainder of the timetable.

    Also, as others have noticed, people are more and more ignoring the restrictions they don't like anyway. And as the weather gets better, that'll only increase.

    We will be opening up slower than the EU despite the vaccinations!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437

    How irrelevant is Starmer? Is he ever going to say anything worthwhile?

    I'm not really sure what he can say? He could talk about Palestine and Israel if you'd like?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,196
    When will pubs FULLY open? I think under Step 3 "indoor entertainment and attractions"??

    Not until 17 May at the earliest!
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Stocky said:

    Is she? Guernsey's CMO, who's had a pretty good pandemic, described it as "epidemiologically illiterate"

    https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1363890935067783173?s=20

    Peston is correct in this case and the fact Johnson said that is surely a relief to everybody.
    Yes, I actually missed that because I was on the phone to a client. It's an unequivocal statement and a very rational one.

    P.S. You need to virtually shake my hand upon losing our sportsman's bet.
    Yep hands up. You win. acknowledged.

    Thanks sir. As I said to Francis earlier, I'm sure you are happy to lose the 'wager' – and I hope you enjoy a few pints on w/c 12 April.
    Yep, likewise.
    You should have specified full pub opening - not just the garden. I said so at the time.
    Yep Mid May for most pubs indoors. A full three months away. At least.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,771

    Is it no unis back for this academic year?

    If the case doesn't suprise me, having 100,000 of plague spreaders moving around the country.

    Practical courses that need to be done to complete degree will be back so def final years in chem, phys, bio, prob engineering etc. I know we have been planning lab classes for pharmacologists.
    Yup, pages 31 and 32 of the document.

    Almost celebrating here, tbf.
    None of the dentists are being allowed to graduate in Dundee this year and I believe other dental schools are the same. Their final year is almost exclusively practical work on patients and they have not been able to do nearly enough. This is having knock on consequences as you can imagine. The dental schools are planning to send out half the number of offers they normally do this year and next to try and deal with the bulge.

    A couple of my son's friends are applying for dentistry. Its never easy but this is brutal.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437
    DavidL said:

    Is it no unis back for this academic year?

    If the case doesn't suprise me, having 100,000 of plague spreaders moving around the country.

    Practical courses that need to be done to complete degree will be back so def final years in chem, phys, bio, prob engineering etc. I know we have been planning lab classes for pharmacologists.
    Yup, pages 31 and 32 of the document.

    Almost celebrating here, tbf.
    None of the dentists are being allowed to graduate in Dundee this year and I believe other dental schools are the same. Their final year is almost exclusively practical work on patients and they have not been able to do nearly enough. This is having knock on consequences as you can imagine. The dental schools are planning to send out half the number of offers they normally do this year and next to try and deal with the bulge.

    A couple of my son's friends are applying for dentistry. Its never easy but this is brutal.
    Does that mean non-scots at Dundee University are going to have to pay for another year of teaching? Brutal.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2021
    Can someone link me to Sturgeon's Zero-Covid strategy?

    I see a lot of people saying she has one but no one linking to it. And my googling has only turned up a 4 day old news story saying some scientists have urged her to adopt a. Zero - covid strategy. Which suggests she hasn't.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,771

    DavidL said:

    Is it no unis back for this academic year?

    If the case doesn't suprise me, having 100,000 of plague spreaders moving around the country.

    Practical courses that need to be done to complete degree will be back so def final years in chem, phys, bio, prob engineering etc. I know we have been planning lab classes for pharmacologists.
    Yup, pages 31 and 32 of the document.

    Almost celebrating here, tbf.
    None of the dentists are being allowed to graduate in Dundee this year and I believe other dental schools are the same. Their final year is almost exclusively practical work on patients and they have not been able to do nearly enough. This is having knock on consequences as you can imagine. The dental schools are planning to send out half the number of offers they normally do this year and next to try and deal with the bulge.

    A couple of my son's friends are applying for dentistry. Its never easy but this is brutal.
    Does that mean non-scots at Dundee University are going to have to pay for another year of teaching? Brutal.
    Hadn't thought of that but Scots actually form a minority of the students at Dundee for dentistry because of the restrictions on places funded by the Scottish government. I would very much hope not on the basis that this year they have paid for something they didn't get but I honestly don't know.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    I am just catching up with the news, after having been at work and then out shopping.

    The news is better than I was expecting, because dates have been pencilled in for the latter stages of the plan. And yes, I know they're couched round with cautious language, but it's hugely important nonetheless. If the Government says that we're going to be rid of all this crap no earlier than June 21st, it gives them wriggle room to put it off until July, but if social distancing isn't in the dustbin by August then there'll be serious ructions. It gives us a standard to judge the Government's performance again. And a bloody good thing too.

    Step 3 (17 May at the earliest) includes overnight stays, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about going up to stay with Mum in June. One now has a degree of confidence that, if the Government can keep up the pace on vaccinations, we are going to get to these unlocking stages at approximately the right times.

    Now, fingers crossed, if we can get to Easter without this big bang opening of the schools not sending things to pot, then I think we'll be on the run-in to the end of this. It's all quite encouraging.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    Nigelb said:

    This should considerably speed up the approval process in the US for any vaccines modified for worrying mutations.

    https://twitter.com/AlecGaffney/status/1363898453332553729

    Is there an English version?
  • kinabalu said:

    I think it's safe to say Boris seems to have made a a fuller recovery from his Covid symptoms now. He couldn't do beyond half an hour in the Chamber last year, now he's coming up to two hours and still going strong.

    Great big powerful man, isn't he?
    He's surprisingly small, in person. Sort of like a cuddly teddy bear (insert obvious Winne the Pooh quote here).

    But then, isn't SKS also surprisingly diminutive, from memory?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,771

    No earlier than mid-July if you tell them mid-April......

    https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1363899291727724544?s=20

    How much would a set of SAM missiles cost? I mean, what's it going to take?
  • From the previous thread.

    Lots of man love ❤️ for Boris, for his roadmap and for his luxuriant hair on PB this afternoon. Some positive swooning. Bless.

    And bloody well deserved too. We can all quibble over the exact speed of the unlocking, but we're now in a position to escape this thing faster than almost all countries that are not led by a certain Boris Johnson.
    Before quibbling over the exact speed of the unlocking, you ought to take off your hat and bow your head for the tens of thousands killed by Boris Johnson's negligence to date.
    Give it a rest.
    Useful to have a list of all the pbers who have a vacuum where their souls should be. Tens of thousands died because Boris Johnson was asleep at the wheel - not once, but over and over.

    And you want to forget that. Well, it will not be forgotten by anyone with a conscience.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Alistair said:

    Can someone link me to Sturgeon's Zero-Covid strategy?

    I see a lot of people saying she has one but no one linking to it. And my googling has only turned up a r day old news story saying some scientists have urged her to adopt a. Zero - covid strategy. Which suggests she hasn't.

    From the Grauniad:

    "At the Scottish government’s daily briefing on Thursday, the first minister said she had always favoured an elimination strategy when dealing with Covid-19 – “by which I mean suppress to as low as possible a level and then try to keep it there”"

    So her elimination strategy is not a Zero-Covid strategy, despite the word elimination
  • I would like to get excited about the announcement but I've lost a bit of confidence we won't go backwards again, and it's still too far off for me to be thrilled, so for now I'll just try and be positive that my friends and neighbours can get their kids properly educated in a fortnight and leave it at that.

    I would like to get excited about the announcement but I've lost a bit of confidence we won't go backwards again, and it's still too far off for me to be thrilled, so for now I'll just try and be positive that my friends and neighbours can get their kids properly educated in a fortnight and leave it at that.

    Very sensible and understandable
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    From the previous thread.

    Lots of man love ❤️ for Boris, for his roadmap and for his luxuriant hair on PB this afternoon. Some positive swooning. Bless.

    And bloody well deserved too. We can all quibble over the exact speed of the unlocking, but we're now in a position to escape this thing faster than almost all countries that are not led by a certain Boris Johnson.
    Before quibbling over the exact speed of the unlocking, you ought to take off your hat and bow your head for the tens of thousands killed by Boris Johnson's negligence to date.
    Give it a rest.
    Useful to have a list of all the pbers who have a vacuum where their souls should be. Tens of thousands died because Boris Johnson was asleep at the wheel - not once, but over and over.

    And you want to forget that. Well, it will not be forgotten by anyone with a conscience.
    It must be difficult to sleep at night maintaining such high levels of sanctimony.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Alistair said:

    Can someone link me to Sturgeon's Zero-Covid strategy?

    I see a lot of people saying she has one but no one linking to it. And my googling has only turned up a r day old news story saying some scientists have urged her to adopt a. Zero - covid strategy. Which suggests she hasn't.

    AFAIK that's true, and Jacinda Ardern has never proposed zero Covid either. Because it's an idea that's both desirable and achievable in theory, but is the opposite in practice. I think some of these over-zealous scientists only deal in theory, and don't think about the practicalities of their proposals. Politicians can't get away with that.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,196

    I am just catching up with the news, after having been at work and then out shopping.

    The news is better than I was expecting, because dates have been pencilled in for the latter stages of the plan. And yes, I know they're couched round with cautious language, but it's hugely important nonetheless. If the Government says that we're going to be rid of all this crap no earlier than June 21st, it gives them wriggle room to put it off until July, but if social distancing isn't in the dustbin by August then there'll be serious ructions. It gives us a standard to judge the Government's performance again. And a bloody good thing too.

    Step 3 (17 May at the earliest) includes overnight stays, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about going up to stay with Mum in June. One now has a degree of confidence that, if the Government can keep up the pace on vaccinations, we are going to get to these unlocking stages at approximately the right times.

    Now, fingers crossed, if we can get to Easter without this big bang opening of the schools not sending things to pot, then I think we'll be on the run-in to the end of this. It's all quite encouraging.

    I think 29 March to visit your mum is OK assuming you are in a bubble with her.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Sandpit said:

    Stocky said:

    Mark Harper asks why the need for any further restrictions at all when at end April all vaccination groups 1-9 will be done and these groups account for 99% of Covid deaths and 80% of Covid hospitalisations.

    An excellent question because it strikes at the very legality of all this and Johnson's bumbling response - that not all will be vaccinated (i.e. younger people and vaccine-decliners) and some of those that have been jabbed will have insufficient protection - is simply not good enough in my opinion.

    Because bringing forward dates of relaxations in response to data, is going to be one hell of a lot easier than pushing them back.
    That`s not what Johnson said. Wish he had said that.
    I’m pretty sure that’s what they’re thinking in government, they don’t want to have to push any commitments so they’re being slightly pessimistic at the moment, while hoping to see cases fall sharply in the coming weeks.
    I stand by my prediction that the medical situation will improve much faster, and the government will come under huge pressure to advance the timescale. It’s possible they already have in mind the possibility of skipping forward, but also possible that they end up trying to defend their timetable beyond the point that would be sensible.
    Certainly hope this happens. It will be odd if admissions fall to double figures or lower, and hospitals return to having few covid patients, but there is no possibility of advancing the release.
    They know it’s a real possibility - how else to explain the “no earlier than” plastered all over the announcements?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,967
    edited February 2021
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This should considerably speed up the approval process in the US for any vaccines modified for worrying mutations.

    https://twitter.com/AlecGaffney/status/1363898453332553729

    Is there an English version?
    You have problems with reading American ? :smile:

    It you're asking if UK regulators might do the same thing, I think the answer is likely yes.

    AFAIK, we're more open to approving the annual updates to the flu vaccine without too much rigmarole than is the FDA. @Charles is probably more knowledgeable about such matters.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,437
    Stocky said:

    I am just catching up with the news, after having been at work and then out shopping.

    The news is better than I was expecting, because dates have been pencilled in for the latter stages of the plan. And yes, I know they're couched round with cautious language, but it's hugely important nonetheless. If the Government says that we're going to be rid of all this crap no earlier than June 21st, it gives them wriggle room to put it off until July, but if social distancing isn't in the dustbin by August then there'll be serious ructions. It gives us a standard to judge the Government's performance again. And a bloody good thing too.

    Step 3 (17 May at the earliest) includes overnight stays, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about going up to stay with Mum in June. One now has a degree of confidence that, if the Government can keep up the pace on vaccinations, we are going to get to these unlocking stages at approximately the right times.

    Now, fingers crossed, if we can get to Easter without this big bang opening of the schools not sending things to pot, then I think we'll be on the run-in to the end of this. It's all quite encouraging.

    I think 29 March to visit your mum is OK assuming you are in a bubble with her.
    You can travel to visit people in your bubble now I thought?
  • Alistair said:

    Can someone link me to Sturgeon's Zero-Covid strategy?

    I see a lot of people saying she has one but no one linking to it. And my googling has only turned up a 4 day old news story saying some scientists have urged her to adopt a. Zero - covid strategy. Which suggests she hasn't.

    BMJ do you?

    Scotland’s leader has proposed that the four UK nations align around a covid-19 elimination strategy similar to New Zealand’s, but is it feasible? Ingrid Torjesen investigates

    Scotland is urging England and Wales to join Scotland and Northern Ireland in a four nation covid-19 elimination strategy.

    Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, told a press briefing on 28 July that she had suggested that all four UK nations align “around a strategy that is effectively about trying to eliminate the virus.”


    https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3071
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    DavidL said:

    No earlier than mid-July if you tell them mid-April......

    https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1363899291727724544?s=20

    How much would a set of SAM missiles cost? I mean, what's it going to take?
    I don’t think SAMs would work on Grant Shapps.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pro_Rata said:

    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.

    Yes, people still don't grasp how absolutely appalling the second wave has been. The absolute botching of the response to case and death rises in SEPTEMBER, never mind November is a key topic for the Truth and Reconciliation comission.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,512
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    No earlier than mid-July if you tell them mid-April......

    https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1363899291727724544?s=20

    How much would a set of SAM missiles cost? I mean, what's it going to take?
    I don’t think SAMs would work on Grant Shapps.
    Surface to airhead?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    This should considerably speed up the approval process in the US for any vaccines modified for worrying mutations.

    https://twitter.com/AlecGaffney/status/1363898453332553729

    Is there an English version?
    You have problems with reading American ?
    I’ve got a narrow gauge steam engine as my avatar, what do you think?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,345

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    No earlier than mid-July if you tell them mid-April......

    https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1363899291727724544?s=20

    How much would a set of SAM missiles cost? I mean, what's it going to take?
    I don’t think SAMs would work on Grant Shapps.
    Surface to airhead?
    I’m saving those for GAvin Williamson DNSR FFS.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Alistair said:

    Can someone link me to Sturgeon's Zero-Covid strategy?

    I see a lot of people saying she has one but no one linking to it. And my googling has only turned up a r day old news story saying some scientists have urged her to adopt a. Zero - covid strategy. Which suggests she hasn't.

    AFAIK that's true, and Jacinda Ardern has never proposed zero Covid either. Because it's an idea that's both desirable and achievable in theory, but is the opposite in practice. I think some of these over-zealous scientists only deal in theory, and don't think about the practicalities of their proposals. Politicians can't get away with that.
    My big concern was that cases thrown up by Britain's enormous case finding industry might be used to justify eternal lock down.

    Johnson signaled he doesn;t mind covid cases so long as very few are getting very ill or dying. That we have to live with this.

    That was a huge relief. Lets hope he sticks at it.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Can someone link me to Sturgeon's Zero-Covid strategy?

    I see a lot of people saying she has one but no one linking to it. And my googling has only turned up a 4 day old news story saying some scientists have urged her to adopt a. Zero - covid strategy. Which suggests she hasn't.

    BMJ do you?

    Scotland’s leader has proposed that the four UK nations align around a covid-19 elimination strategy similar to New Zealand’s, but is it feasible? Ingrid Torjesen investigates

    Scotland is urging England and Wales to join Scotland and Northern Ireland in a four nation covid-19 elimination strategy.

    Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, told a press briefing on 28 July that she had suggested that all four UK nations align “around a strategy that is effectively about trying to eliminate the virus.”


    https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3071
    So in the middle of summer last year she suggested a UK wide Covid zero strategy as the only way of making covid zero work.

    That didn't happen.

    I'm fairly certain that opening schools with cases increasing doesn't match a Covid zero strategy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999

    From the previous thread.

    Lots of man love ❤️ for Boris, for his roadmap and for his luxuriant hair on PB this afternoon. Some positive swooning. Bless.

    And bloody well deserved too. We can all quibble over the exact speed of the unlocking, but we're now in a position to escape this thing faster than almost all countries that are not led by a certain Boris Johnson.
    Before quibbling over the exact speed of the unlocking, you ought to take off your hat and bow your head for the tens of thousands killed by Boris Johnson's negligence to date.
    Give it a rest.
    Useful to have a list of all the pbers who have a vacuum where their souls should be. Tens of thousands died because Boris Johnson was asleep at the wheel - not once, but over and over.

    And you want to forget that. Well, it will not be forgotten by anyone with a conscience.
    It must be difficult to sleep at night maintaining such high levels of sanctimony.
    The useful thing abut being sanctimonious is it provides people the opportunity to be sanctimonious in response, so everybody wins.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,771
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    No earlier than mid-July if you tell them mid-April......

    https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1363899291727724544?s=20

    How much would a set of SAM missiles cost? I mean, what's it going to take?
    I don’t think SAMs would work on Grant Shapps.
    Are you sure? He's a balloon full of hot air is he not?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,196

    Stocky said:

    I am just catching up with the news, after having been at work and then out shopping.

    The news is better than I was expecting, because dates have been pencilled in for the latter stages of the plan. And yes, I know they're couched round with cautious language, but it's hugely important nonetheless. If the Government says that we're going to be rid of all this crap no earlier than June 21st, it gives them wriggle room to put it off until July, but if social distancing isn't in the dustbin by August then there'll be serious ructions. It gives us a standard to judge the Government's performance again. And a bloody good thing too.

    Step 3 (17 May at the earliest) includes overnight stays, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about going up to stay with Mum in June. One now has a degree of confidence that, if the Government can keep up the pace on vaccinations, we are going to get to these unlocking stages at approximately the right times.

    Now, fingers crossed, if we can get to Easter without this big bang opening of the schools not sending things to pot, then I think we'll be on the run-in to the end of this. It's all quite encouraging.

    I think 29 March to visit your mum is OK assuming you are in a bubble with her.
    You can travel to visit people in your bubble now I thought?
    Not according to some police forces.

    E.g. Amanda Holden/Devon police:

    https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/celebs-tv/amanda-holden-avoids-covid-fine-5004889

    She avoided fine in the end but they tried to prosecute.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,967
    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:



    DavidL said:

    Primary 1-3 were back at the school behind my house today. Lots of happy laughter, if not from the teachers.

    It really seems to me that those spending so long in close proximity with children too young to understand social distancing ought to have been vaccinated before the schools went back.

    Two issues with that: 1. as far as I understand, there is very little evident that children spread it significantly, and 2. any vaccination of a teacher in her 20s who is unlikely to suffer seriously with it pushes someone in his 60s who may become seriously ill or die back in the queue.

    The argument isn't cut and dried either way, as far as I'm concerned. I'm just pointing out why the alternative approach might have a case too.
    I’m more concerned, re. Vaccines, with this idea you need to continue to be careful while building immunity, which isn’t possible in a school.

    Equally, I’m not seeing surges in deaths among medical staff who have been vaccinated (having looked) which I’ll take as a hopeful sign.
    Yes, I don't think there's any evidence that vaccines might increase your susceptibility to the virus in the short time it takes to develop an immune response. Though there's some likelihood that some of those vaccinated became less cautious immediately after getting vaccinated.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Stocky said:

    I am just catching up with the news, after having been at work and then out shopping.

    The news is better than I was expecting, because dates have been pencilled in for the latter stages of the plan. And yes, I know they're couched round with cautious language, but it's hugely important nonetheless. If the Government says that we're going to be rid of all this crap no earlier than June 21st, it gives them wriggle room to put it off until July, but if social distancing isn't in the dustbin by August then there'll be serious ructions. It gives us a standard to judge the Government's performance again. And a bloody good thing too.

    Step 3 (17 May at the earliest) includes overnight stays, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about going up to stay with Mum in June. One now has a degree of confidence that, if the Government can keep up the pace on vaccinations, we are going to get to these unlocking stages at approximately the right times.

    Now, fingers crossed, if we can get to Easter without this big bang opening of the schools not sending things to pot, then I think we'll be on the run-in to the end of this. It's all quite encouraging.

    I think 29 March to visit your mum is OK assuming you are in a bubble with her.
    I'm not, so I don't think that would be strictly permissible. Besides, I'm intending on leaving it until she's had jab 2 and I've had jab 1. I'm a fortysomething so am hoping I won't be waiting an eternity after the over 50s target in mid-April.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999

    I would like to get excited about the announcement but I've lost a bit of confidence we won't go backwards again, and it's still too far off for me to be thrilled, so for now I'll just try and be positive that my friends and neighbours can get their kids properly educated in a fortnight and leave it at that.

    I think there's been too many missteps to be super confident we are on a path to release which will not deviate, so a level of wariness is appropriate even if things are definitely more optimistic now.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999
    Alistair said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.

    Yes, people still don't grasp how absolutely appalling the second wave has been..
    Yes, it has been pretty remarkable, as though a combination of numbness after so much time and the arrival of genuinely good news about future prospects has really undercut just how truly terrible this last wave has been. January was an absolute horror show.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,395
    A few people in Group 2 reporting booking jab, turning up with required membership of professional body ID, only for the receptionist to ask who their employer is.
    On being told self employed then being turned away.
    It seems that self employed in the medical and care sector does not compute for some.
  • Sports media on BBC and Sky Sports News has gone a bit bonkers this afternoon, lots of interviews about how great it is that clubs can have fans back from May 17. Yet the Football League season ends on May 16, FA Cup final is May 15, so its basically one round of Prem fixtures, where the clubs will have to work out special arrangements just for that one game.

    England Scotland at Wembley in the Euros limited to 10k max crowd whereas three days later they would be allowed a full crowd.....
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Alistair said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.

    Yes, people still don't grasp how absolutely appalling the second wave has been. The absolute botching of the response to case and death rises in SEPTEMBER, never mind November is a key topic for the Truth and Reconciliation comission.
    Which country will the T&R commission be holding up as best practice? that'll be an interesting one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,967
    For those who think the UK government is getting an ungenerous response towards its efforts...

    https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1363896822029312000
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    By the end of September weekly deaths had doubled twice over the month. It took till the end of October where weekly deaths had doubled twice again before action was taken.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999

    kinabalu said:

    From the previous thread.

    Lots of man love ❤️ for Boris, for his roadmap and for his luxuriant hair on PB this afternoon. Some positive swooning. Bless.

    And bloody well deserved too. We can all quibble over the exact speed of the unlocking, but we're now in a position to escape this thing faster than almost all countries that are not led by a certain Boris Johnson.
    Before quibbling over the exact speed of the unlocking, you ought to take off your hat and bow your head for the tens of thousands killed by Boris Johnson's negligence to date.
    Post of the day. A shard of ice in the cup of frothing adulation.
    More like a dollop of pigeon shit in your morning coffee.
    Why do you get so animated when posters critique Johnson.
    He didn't earn his name lightly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,771
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.

    Yes, people still don't grasp how absolutely appalling the second wave has been..
    Yes, it has been pretty remarkable, as though a combination of numbness after so much time and the arrival of genuinely good news about future prospects has really undercut just how truly terrible this last wave has been. January was an absolute horror show.
    It absolutely was. Imagine if we had had that and no vaccines. Would our economy have survived? I fear we would have had to simply accept 1-2% were going to die and get on with it. We've dodged a bullet. This time.
  • Stocky said:

    I am just catching up with the news, after having been at work and then out shopping.

    The news is better than I was expecting, because dates have been pencilled in for the latter stages of the plan. And yes, I know they're couched round with cautious language, but it's hugely important nonetheless. If the Government says that we're going to be rid of all this crap no earlier than June 21st, it gives them wriggle room to put it off until July, but if social distancing isn't in the dustbin by August then there'll be serious ructions. It gives us a standard to judge the Government's performance again. And a bloody good thing too.

    Step 3 (17 May at the earliest) includes overnight stays, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about going up to stay with Mum in June. One now has a degree of confidence that, if the Government can keep up the pace on vaccinations, we are going to get to these unlocking stages at approximately the right times.

    Now, fingers crossed, if we can get to Easter without this big bang opening of the schools not sending things to pot, then I think we'll be on the run-in to the end of this. It's all quite encouraging.

    I think 29 March to visit your mum is OK assuming you are in a bubble with her.
    You can travel to visit people in your bubble now I thought?
    Of course you can, that is the whole point of a bubble!
  • Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Can someone link me to Sturgeon's Zero-Covid strategy?

    I see a lot of people saying she has one but no one linking to it. And my googling has only turned up a 4 day old news story saying some scientists have urged her to adopt a. Zero - covid strategy. Which suggests she hasn't.

    BMJ do you?

    Scotland’s leader has proposed that the four UK nations align around a covid-19 elimination strategy similar to New Zealand’s, but is it feasible? Ingrid Torjesen investigates

    Scotland is urging England and Wales to join Scotland and Northern Ireland in a four nation covid-19 elimination strategy.

    Scotland’s first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, told a press briefing on 28 July that she had suggested that all four UK nations align “around a strategy that is effectively about trying to eliminate the virus.”


    https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3071
    I'm fairly certain that opening schools with cases increasing doesn't match a Covid zero strategy.
    Certainly makes it “brave”!
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.

    Yes, people still don't grasp how absolutely appalling the second wave has been..
    Yes, it has been pretty remarkable, as though a combination of numbness after so much time and the arrival of genuinely good news about future prospects has really undercut just how truly terrible this last wave has been. January was an absolute horror show.
    Wasn;t it everywhere?

    And hasn;t the disease waned in the world in February, pretty much everywhere?

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,726
    Nigelb said:

    For those who think the UK government is getting an ungenerous response towards its efforts...

    https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1363896822029312000

    America's Jo Whiley but even more idiotic.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.

    Yes, people still don't grasp how absolutely appalling the second wave has been..
    Yes, it has been pretty remarkable, as though a combination of numbness after so much time and the arrival of genuinely good news about future prospects has really undercut just how truly terrible this last wave has been. January was an absolute horror show.
    Wasn;t it everywhere?

    And hasn;t the disease waned in the world in February, pretty much everywhere?

    There were waves in a lot of places, true. But it was a really bad one, and it just feels surprising how unpanicked people have seemed, for better and worse, about that.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.

    Yes, people still don't grasp how absolutely appalling the second wave has been. The absolute botching of the response to case and death rises in SEPTEMBER, never mind November is a key topic for the Truth and Reconciliation comission.
    Which country will the T&R commission be holding up as best practice? that'll be an interesting one.
    That's not the point of a t&r commission. The point is to find out what decisions were made, when they were made and more importantly why they were made so that the next time there is a pandemic the same mistakes are not repeated.

    It is not a dick measuring contest. Nor a sop to make people feel better because other countries did badly.

    It is an internal process.
  • No earlier than mid-July if you tell them mid-April......

    https://twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1363899291727724544?s=20

    Yeah right. 🙄

    Tell Ryanair in mid April they can resume flights mid May there's not a snowballs chance in hell they won't be flying before July. If you believe that you'll believe anything!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,999
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Today we went over 140k nameable individuals dead. (133,077 death certificate by date to 5/2, 7,000 exactly hospital deaths by date since then).

    There was one key, killer failure that made the UKs second wave so bad - in the last week of November, the failure to appreciate quite what was going on in Kent - the numbers were there to be seen - and the failure to moderate the lockdown release accordingly. The over generous initial Christmas offer, didn't help and limited how much could be scaled back, but that was secondary, the damage was already done in early December with Kent in tier 3 and Essex and London in tier 2, by waiting for the confirmation of the new strain before acting, rather than acting on the 'something' in the numbers.

    Unfortunately, rapid vaccination compared with Europe and our likely faster downswing, although welcome and a psychological boon, will be a lesser influence in overall assessment than people believe. We will save lives here, but Europe will, is, downswinging and will have the summer to play catch up on that downswing.

    Yes, people still don't grasp how absolutely appalling the second wave has been. The absolute botching of the response to case and death rises in SEPTEMBER, never mind November is a key topic for the Truth and Reconciliation comission.
    Which country will the T&R commission be holding up as best practice? that'll be an interesting one.
    That's not the point of a t&r commission. The point is to find out what decisions were made, when they were made and more importantly why they were made so that the next time there is a pandemic the same mistakes are not repeated.

    It is not a dick measuring contest. Nor a sop to make people feel better because other countries did badly.

    It is an internal process.
    That's what it should be. I think the chances of us getting something like that are about zero.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,196

    Stocky said:

    I am just catching up with the news, after having been at work and then out shopping.

    The news is better than I was expecting, because dates have been pencilled in for the latter stages of the plan. And yes, I know they're couched round with cautious language, but it's hugely important nonetheless. If the Government says that we're going to be rid of all this crap no earlier than June 21st, it gives them wriggle room to put it off until July, but if social distancing isn't in the dustbin by August then there'll be serious ructions. It gives us a standard to judge the Government's performance again. And a bloody good thing too.

    Step 3 (17 May at the earliest) includes overnight stays, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about going up to stay with Mum in June. One now has a degree of confidence that, if the Government can keep up the pace on vaccinations, we are going to get to these unlocking stages at approximately the right times.

    Now, fingers crossed, if we can get to Easter without this big bang opening of the schools not sending things to pot, then I think we'll be on the run-in to the end of this. It's all quite encouraging.

    I think 29 March to visit your mum is OK assuming you are in a bubble with her.
    You can travel to visit people in your bubble now I thought?
    Of course you can, that is the whole point of a bubble!

    Stocky said:

    I am just catching up with the news, after having been at work and then out shopping.

    The news is better than I was expecting, because dates have been pencilled in for the latter stages of the plan. And yes, I know they're couched round with cautious language, but it's hugely important nonetheless. If the Government says that we're going to be rid of all this crap no earlier than June 21st, it gives them wriggle room to put it off until July, but if social distancing isn't in the dustbin by August then there'll be serious ructions. It gives us a standard to judge the Government's performance again. And a bloody good thing too.

    Step 3 (17 May at the earliest) includes overnight stays, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about going up to stay with Mum in June. One now has a degree of confidence that, if the Government can keep up the pace on vaccinations, we are going to get to these unlocking stages at approximately the right times.

    Now, fingers crossed, if we can get to Easter without this big bang opening of the schools not sending things to pot, then I think we'll be on the run-in to the end of this. It's all quite encouraging.

    I think 29 March to visit your mum is OK assuming you are in a bubble with her.
    You can travel to visit people in your bubble now I thought?
    Of course you can, that is the whole point of a bubble!
    @Gallowgate

    Support Bubbles - this is what the rules say:

    "You are permitted to leave your home to visit your support bubble (and to stay overnight with them). However, if you form a support bubble, it is best if this is with a household who live locally. This will help prevent the virus spreading from an area where more people are infected."

    So I would say that legally speaking you can visit someone in a bubble regardless of distance. However, in practice I think you do risk prosecution defending on the copper that catches you because some forces are proceeding on a spirit of the law basis rather than a letter of the law basis. That`s my understanding.
This discussion has been closed.