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Polling in 15 of the world’s leading countries finds Brits at the top of the league on wanting to be

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited February 12 in General
imagePolling in 15 of the world’s leading countries finds Brits at the top of the league on wanting to be vaccinated – politicalbetting.com

Source Ipsos

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Comments

  • First
  • PhilPhil Posts: 405
    Second. Can’t wait to get jabbed frankly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 39,354
    Certainly looking good for the target of groups 1-4.

    I think more GPs should be freed up to dish it out as well as all these centralised locations. No GP near me is doing it as far as I am aware.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,675
    Me, me, I want to be vaccinated. Any time, any place. Whenever suits.
  • Is this the queue to get a jab?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 12,238
    Le Pen's expression is priceless



    Wait, what did you just say?????

  • RobDRobD Posts: 52,262
    Who ordered that list?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 3,051
    I, for one, welcome our new Gatesian overlords.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860
    maaarsh said:

    DougSeal said:
    That would imply a more effective suppression of the virus than in Lockdown 1.0, even though we're now in Winter and the rules are slightly less severe.

    Is there any other plausible explanation that we can think of besides the effect of mass vaccination feeding through into the figures?
    Vaccination and post infection immunity given R is lowest in areas which had the Kent varient big time.
    That's a very good point. There was a phase before the Kent Plague became widespread that South Wales was in a truly shocking state. Now most local authorities there are reporting infection rates below 100 per 100,000, so there's probably something to that hypothesis.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 25,850
    The vaccine can't come soon enough for me.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,675

    Is this the queue to get a jab?

    Yep, and you are behind me. Stand in line.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 12,238
    Son's arm still hurts 24 hours after his jab - but count me in!!!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 52,262
    DavidL said:

    Is this the queue to get a jab?

    Yep, and you are behind me. Stand in line.
    Max is checking his contract now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 64,268
    Brazil and Mexico very high, two countries that Covid has ripped through.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Then answer me this. How come the European country which is furthest ahead of all the other EU members is tiny Malta which went out and procured vaccines on its own?

    So Carlotta you are saying that countries could have gone out and got vaccines regardless of their status of EU membership?
    Germany did.
    So how come the EU is the baddy? They just turned out to be useless at vaccine procurement.

    As with everything else, membership of the EU was incidental to the real issue.
    Many things are possible whilst also facing pressure to not do those things. The EU prizes solidarity so highly it may well be difficult for some to take alternative actions. So I dont agree its incidental when the EC is saying the approach was right as that is relevant.

    They might well still consider it the right approach even with the issues, but if presented two options and I'm very strongly told I should pick one of them it's not incidental.
    Hmm. The mighty Malta UK would not have been able to plough its own furrow?
    We may or may not have chosen to do so, I dont know. I doubt most EU nations think they made a wrong call sticking with the coordinated approach. I merely contest the idea it is incidental if there is a preferred and recommended EU approach. That's highly relevant for any nation considering going outside. They could, some did, but it's not a minor factor.

    You may think people are making too much of it, but it certainly is not incidental.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 290
    I think that people were told that the vaccination programme would enable the restrictions to be relaxed in the spring. Dr Whitty clarified that this meant spring, not Easter, if I remember correctly. A lot of people on PB were very optimistic, saying that there are only a few weeks of restrictions left to go.

    Then came news that the government has ordered surge testing on a few dozen cases of the SA virus variant. Now there is talk of the restrictions being extended to the autumn. No one can think about anything else other than COVID. The government's answer is to constantly find new pretexts to extend the restrictions. There is no point in believing any of the promises that they are making at the moment.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 29,455
    edited February 12
    Reposting this link from the last thread: excellent long read article about Nikki Haley, which is essential reading for anyone intending to be on the next US presidential election.
    https://www.politico.com/interactives/2021/magazine-nikki-haleys-choice/

    This bit from the end of the piece is quite amazing...

    ...Perhaps the greatest threat to Haley is Fox News after dark. There is a reason she went on Laura Ingraham’s show on January 25—a few weeks after blaming Trump for the siege of the Capitol—and said we should “give the man a break.” (This was my latest Haley-induced whiplash; it made, by my count, three distinct stances on Trump in the span of six weeks.)...
    ...Hoping for a hint, I asked Haley on January 12: Does she still consider Trump a friend?

    “Friend,” she answered, “is a loose term.”


    ... in the contact of this story, also posted today.

    Nikki Haley breaks with Trump: 'We shouldn't have followed him'
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/538573-haley-breaks-with-trump-we-shouldnt-have-followed-him
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 55,953
    edited February 12
    HYUFD said:

    twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1360249644597526529?s=20

    twitter.com/OxUniLabour/status/1359089358897373185?s=20

    It seems this lady has been "no-platformed" in the recent past. Its TERF wars.

    An Oxford University professor whose invitation to a conference celebrating women was withdrawn has defended her stance on transgender rights issues.

    Selina Todd was "no-platformed" by the Oxford International Women's Festival, at which she had been due to speak.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-51737206
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 82,645
    edited February 12
    Nigelb said:

    Reposting this link from the last thread: excellent long read article about Nikki Haley, which is essential reading for anyone intending to be on the next US presidential election.
    https://www.politico.com/interactives/2021/magazine-nikki-haleys-choice/

    This bit from the end of the piece is quite amazing...

    ...Perhaps the greatest threat to Haley is Fox News after dark. There is a reason she went on Laura Ingraham’s show on January 25—a few weeks after blaming Trump for the siege of the Capitol—and said we should “give the man a break.” (This was my latest Haley-induced whiplash; it made, by my count, three distinct stances on Trump in the span of six weeks.)...
    ...Hoping for a hint, I asked Haley on January 12: Does she still consider Trump a friend?

    “Friend,” she answered, “is a loose term.”


    ... in the contact of this story, also posted today.

    Nikki Haley breaks with Trump: 'We shouldn't have followed him'
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/538573-haley-breaks-with-trump-we-shouldnt-have-followed-him

    Haley is probably the GOP's best chance to win the 2024 Presidential election but also the least likely to win the GOP nomination of the main contenders, the best she can do is be the VP pick to balance the ticket for Pence or Cruz, one of whom will likely be the nominee if Trump does not run again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 82,645
    As with the SNP now with Labour
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860
    Pulpstar said:

    Brazil and Mexico very high, two countries that Covid has ripped through.

    I think Brazil wins a moral victory in the vaccine enthusiasm league. A smidge behind the UK overall, but with rather more really excited.

    Big jumps in many countries that have been whacked hard by the Plague, though not all - and France (and to a lesser extent both the United States and Germany) improving from a low base, with lots of hesitancy still evident.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,675
    Although we can rightly be pleased with the rationality of the great British public its interesting that the number of those approving is up 21% from December. That's a really big change.
  • Floater said:

    twitter.com/AFP/status/1360232047336427521

    Pseudo-science....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Then answer me this. How come the European country which is furthest ahead of all the other EU members is tiny Malta which went out and procured vaccines on its own?

    So Carlotta you are saying that countries could have gone out and got vaccines regardless of their status of EU membership?
    Germany did.
    So how come the EU is the baddy? They just turned out to be useless at vaccine procurement.

    As with everything else, membership of the EU was incidental to the real issue.
    Many things are possible whilst also facing pressure to not do those things. The EU prizes solidarity so highly it may well be difficult for some to take alternative actions. So I dont agree its incidental when the EC is saying the approach was right as that is relevant.

    They might well still consider it the right approach even with the issues, but if presented two options and I'm very strongly told I should pick one of them it's not incidental.
    Hmm. The mighty Malta UK would not have been able to plough its own furrow?
    We may or may not have chosen to do so, I dont know. I doubt most EU nations think they made a wrong call sticking with the coordinated approach. I merely contest the idea it is incidental if there is a preferred and recommended EU approach. That's highly relevant for any nation considering going outside. They could, some did, but it's not a minor factor.

    You may think people are making too much of it, but it certainly is not incidental.
    My point is that like so much else, we remain and would have remained sovereign. Had we wanted to as EU members (indeed weren't we to all intents and purposes EU members at the time) have done our own thing. As did Malta and Germany.

    I get that the EU were crap at vaccine procurement and we were the dog's. But that we were the dog's had nothing to do with us being members of the EU. Of course they had a preferred and recommended approach but so what?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769
    Yay for us!
  • TimTTimT Posts: 2,630
    Floater said:

    Le Pen's expression is priceless



    Wait, what did you just say?????

    Indeed, she could just not believe what she was hearing. Perhaps she can run as the moderate in the run-off against Macron now.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860
    Floater said:
    Did the manufacturers recommend extending the gap between the first and second doses to infinity? I wonder what President Macron will have to say about this...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999
    edited February 12
    god only knows why I'm doing this but fpt

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Phil said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Its 4 weeks since my dad has his jab (Pfizer) and 2 weeks since my mum had hers (AZ). Hopefully they would both be okay now even if they got the virus.

    Neil Ferguson and Susan Michie will be along later to tell you why its NOT OK.
    Why are you like this contrarian?

    The published evidence is pretty clear - after the first jab it takes around two weeks before you see signs of immunity showing up in the data, and after three weeks it’s overwhelmingly obvious. If I was in your Mum’s position Andy_JS I’d personally give it another week to be sure, but your Dad should be pretty safe.

    If we got variants spreading widely that these vaccines offered no protection at all against, then that calculus might change in the future.
    I am like this because I believe I have sacrificed quite enough, in terms of my liberty, my mental well being and in the near future probably quite large amounts of my hard earned cash. And for what?

    Even before the pandemic struck, the most long lived and most prosperous generation in history.

    Young people have sacrificed far, far more than enough. Far more. As will soon be very apparent.

    Irish joke: Paddy and Liam are trying to get a horse under a bridge, but the bridge is just too low. Liam: We could take his shoes off. Paddy: But it's not his feet that don't fit, it's his ears.

    Almost impossible to believe that after a year of this you still don't see the fallacy in this most long lived and most prosperous generation in history stuff.
    Come forward and name a generation that has fared better. You can't, because there isn't.
    That is not where the fallacy is.
    So you admit the boomer generation had it the best ever. Good. The choice, given the nature of covid, was to at least keep our children in school so maybe some more very sick boomers died. Or maybe didn't, who knows.

    Epic point missing.

    No point spending time on this, but you do realise there is nothing uniquely age-specific about covid? It kills the same age groups in the same proportions as - for starters - flu, cancer, heart disease and pneumonia. What do you think the knock-on effects on the younger-than-boomers would be if you let the disease run unchecked? You only take the "boomers" out of the picture if you not only take no steps to prevent them getting the disease but also deny them hospital care when they get it. Is that what you are proposing?
    Please do not pretend that the rationing of healthcare did not exist before covid, when it manifestly did and always has done. The idea that doctors were suddenly faced with difficult decisions after decades of plenty is completely false.

    I accept healthcare would have been rationed more thinly than it even was at the height of covid, and perhaps some more people (of an average age of 80) might have died.

    But out children would have stayed in school. Its not we would have sent a a quarter of a million 20-year olds over the top at the Somme.
    Anyone think he'll shut up when the kids go back to school if lockdown continues? Or is the "Will nobody think of the children?" just an excuse to keep whining about lockdown.
    It is absolutely justified for people, whether they be Mark Harper, David Blunkett, Julia Hartley-Brewer, god help us, or our very own @contrarian, to question and continue to question the reasons for lockdown.

    The government has taken away a significant amount of our freedom and gets to determine who we are and are not allowed to have sex with and where.

    That to my mind, and whatever the justification, does not just get a nod through. It may be, and as we have seen with the case numbers, and the trolleys in corridors of national health services very very probably is, absolutely justified. But not automatically because some scientists say so.

    Wonderful as PB is, full as it is of questioning, thoughtful, intellectually demanding folk, the complete and whole falling in behind the government on this, while seeking to ostracise those who dissent, I find strange, perhaps disturbing.
    That is bollocks as regards Contra. He spews lies and misinformation on this. The near 100% kickback is for that reason. You should join it.
    He is a menace. More boradly, though, the turning point will come when people look at the numbers that the Govt itself provides and says "why are we still doing this"? That's one reason, incidentally, why you shouldn't buy Contra's view of the world. Why would the Government be providing us with stats that we can use to form our own opinions (as misguided as they may be) if there was some overarching plot to leave us like this for as long as possible. Authoritarianism withers in the face of transparency.
    @contra's point is that without pressure to look at the numbers and the associated issues (economic, mental health, education, etc) then there would be a temptation for the government to take its time.

    If everyone was like PB the numbers would be incidental and the govt could continue to listen to the medics and scientists who would form policy.

    It is no stretch to think that a possible sequence of events could be: numbers low, every right (small r)-thinking person says well that's it we've got it cracked, out of lockdown we come, then the CMO says we can't come out of lockdown because we need to be sure the numbers won't rise again.

    And that means an open-ended lockdown. With only maybe Rishi as a voice against.

    Why? Just because the govt and the country would have become used to following the science.
    If I was a fan of an open-ended lockdown and I wanted utter overcaution or I got a kick out of having people locked down, I'd want the voices on the other side to be coming out with incoherent and dishonest crap. So easy to ignore or sideline the Piers Corbyns, or the Ivor Cummins of this world.

    The thing that makes it all dangerous is that some people who are so desperate to deny the reality of the situation actually believe the bollocks. Which is why we had people invading hospitals "to show the truth of their emptiness" or demonstrating outside of them, or holding covid parties, and so on.
    Hell, Yeadon and a couple of the others that Young was hosting was actively publicising dishonest antivaxxer crap, and that's outright dangerous in itself.

    If it wasn't for that, I could simply dismiss them as pathetic deniers who can't come to terms with a crisis and I'd be all in favour of them doing whatever it takes as a coping mechanism.
    As I said, the government is aware that there is opposition to lockdown. Not on PB, obvs, but "out there". If some people were storming hospitals that is one manifestation.

    But I'll take your let's not storm hospitals and counter with what about the woman who was arrested for trying to take her mother out of a care home? All good and proper for the state to do? What about not letting people who were dying see their spouses or families.

    What possible reason would there be for an 80-yr old who is dying to be denied seeing or being hugged by their 50-yr old daughter or their 15-yr old grand-daughter? All good?

    Lockdown worked. It has prevented deaths, brought down hospitalisations, and given space for vaccines to be developed. But it is also an unprecedented restriction of our freedom.

    So if people want to over-react about that, I'm not hugely worried. And you should trust people more. As @rcs1000 tells us, without formal lockdowns people voluntarily lock themselves down.

    And what if, come Feb 22nd or March 15th, numbers/deaths/hospitalisations are super low? And what if Chris Whitty says "we can't open up because we would risk infections rising again". Without the knowledge that there would be substantial opposition (again, not from PB, obvs), why wouldn't the government follow that advice?

  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 3,051
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Then answer me this. How come the European country which is furthest ahead of all the other EU members is tiny Malta which went out and procured vaccines on its own?

    So Carlotta you are saying that countries could have gone out and got vaccines regardless of their status of EU membership?
    Germany did.
    So how come the EU is the baddy? They just turned out to be useless at vaccine procurement.

    As with everything else, membership of the EU was incidental to the real issue.
    Many things are possible whilst also facing pressure to not do those things. The EU prizes solidarity so highly it may well be difficult for some to take alternative actions. So I dont agree its incidental when the EC is saying the approach was right as that is relevant.

    They might well still consider it the right approach even with the issues, but if presented two options and I'm very strongly told I should pick one of them it's not incidental.
    Hmm. The mighty Malta UK would not have been able to plough its own furrow?
    We may or may not have chosen to do so, I dont know. I doubt most EU nations think they made a wrong call sticking with the coordinated approach. I merely contest the idea it is incidental if there is a preferred and recommended EU approach. That's highly relevant for any nation considering going outside. They could, some did, but it's not a minor factor.

    You may think people are making too much of it, but it certainly is not incidental.
    My point is that like so much else, we remain and would have remained sovereign. Had we wanted to as EU members (indeed weren't we to all intents and purposes EU members at the time) have done our own thing. As did Malta and Germany.

    I get that the EU were crap at vaccine procurement and we were the dog's. But that we were the dog's had nothing to do with us being members of the EU. Of course they had a preferred and recommended approach but so what?
    Germany cheated.

    Imagine if we'd been in the EU procurement scheme, and cheated.

    Johnson would probably have been accused of "breaking international law" again.
  • GaussianGaussian Posts: 791

    maaarsh said:

    DougSeal said:
    That would imply a more effective suppression of the virus than in Lockdown 1.0, even though we're now in Winter and the rules are slightly less severe.

    Is there any other plausible explanation that we can think of besides the effect of mass vaccination feeding through into the figures?
    Vaccination and post infection immunity given R is lowest in areas which had the Kent varient big time.
    That's a very good point. There was a phase before the Kent Plague became widespread that South Wales was in a truly shocking state. Now most local authorities there are reporting infection rates below 100 per 100,000, so there's probably something to that hypothesis.
    I think it's partly the "naturally acquired" immunity, and partly that having had the local hospitals at breaking point, and having had bad cases and deaths among family and friends, people are more careful than in areas where it never got so out of control.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 2,630

    Pulpstar said:

    Brazil and Mexico very high, two countries that Covid has ripped through.

    I think Brazil wins a moral victory in the vaccine enthusiasm league. A smidge behind the UK overall, but with rather more really excited.

    Big jumps in many countries that have been whacked hard by the Plague, though not all - and France (and to a lesser extent both the United States and Germany) improving from a low base, with lots of hesitancy still evident.
    I would expect to see further big changes in those reluctant numbers once Israel and the UK's numbers post mass vaccination really kick in and are splashed around in the international press.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,349
    Floater said:

    Son's arm still hurts 24 hours after his jab - but count me in!!!

    Mine did too - worst about 36 hours in and now eased off to nothing. Headache at 36 hours as well, but minor.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,675

    Yay for us!

    Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
    And let them settle,
    Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.
    Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
    Add lots of Norman French to some
    Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.

    Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
    Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
    Vietnamese and Sudanese.

    Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
    And Pakistanis,
    Combine with some Guyanese
    And turn up the heat.

    Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
    Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
    Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
    And Palestinians
    Then add to the melting pot.
    Leave the ingredients to simmer.

    As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
    Binding them together with English.

    Allow time to be cool.

    Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
    Serve with justice
    And enjoy.

    Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.

    Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.
    Benjamin Zephaniah
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,667
    DavidL said:

    Although we can rightly be pleased with the rationality of the great British public its interesting that the number of those approving is up 21% from December. That's a really big change.

    People love a winner
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,068

    Floater said:

    Son's arm still hurts 24 hours after his jab - but count me in!!!

    Mine did too - worst about 36 hours in and now eased off to nothing. Headache at 36 hours as well, but minor.
    AZ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 10,018
    HYUFD said:

    As with the SNP now with Labour
    And what of the conservative, business-friendly and moderate party of Mrs Thatcher?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860
    TimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Brazil and Mexico very high, two countries that Covid has ripped through.

    I think Brazil wins a moral victory in the vaccine enthusiasm league. A smidge behind the UK overall, but with rather more really excited.

    Big jumps in many countries that have been whacked hard by the Plague, though not all - and France (and to a lesser extent both the United States and Germany) improving from a low base, with lots of hesitancy still evident.
    I would expect to see further big changes in those reluctant numbers once Israel and the UK's numbers post mass vaccination really kick in and are splashed around in the international press.
    Let's hope so, we need to carry everyone with us.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,675
    Endillion said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Then answer me this. How come the European country which is furthest ahead of all the other EU members is tiny Malta which went out and procured vaccines on its own?

    So Carlotta you are saying that countries could have gone out and got vaccines regardless of their status of EU membership?
    Germany did.
    So how come the EU is the baddy? They just turned out to be useless at vaccine procurement.

    As with everything else, membership of the EU was incidental to the real issue.
    Many things are possible whilst also facing pressure to not do those things. The EU prizes solidarity so highly it may well be difficult for some to take alternative actions. So I dont agree its incidental when the EC is saying the approach was right as that is relevant.

    They might well still consider it the right approach even with the issues, but if presented two options and I'm very strongly told I should pick one of them it's not incidental.
    Hmm. The mighty Malta UK would not have been able to plough its own furrow?
    We may or may not have chosen to do so, I dont know. I doubt most EU nations think they made a wrong call sticking with the coordinated approach. I merely contest the idea it is incidental if there is a preferred and recommended EU approach. That's highly relevant for any nation considering going outside. They could, some did, but it's not a minor factor.

    You may think people are making too much of it, but it certainly is not incidental.
    My point is that like so much else, we remain and would have remained sovereign. Had we wanted to as EU members (indeed weren't we to all intents and purposes EU members at the time) have done our own thing. As did Malta and Germany.

    I get that the EU were crap at vaccine procurement and we were the dog's. But that we were the dog's had nothing to do with us being members of the EU. Of course they had a preferred and recommended approach but so what?
    Germany cheated.

    Imagine if we'd been in the EU procurement scheme, and cheated.

    Johnson would probably have been accused of "breaking international law" again.
    Were they practising penalties again?
  • DavidL said:

    Yay for us!

    Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
    And let them settle,
    Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.
    Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
    Add lots of Norman French to some
    Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.

    Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
    Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
    Vietnamese and Sudanese.

    Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
    And Pakistanis,
    Combine with some Guyanese
    And turn up the heat.

    Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
    Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
    Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
    And Palestinians
    Then add to the melting pot.
    Leave the ingredients to simmer.

    As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
    Binding them together with English.

    Allow time to be cool.

    Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
    Serve with justice
    And enjoy.

    Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.

    Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.
    Benjamin Zephaniah
    Will no-one stand up for the Beaker People?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Then answer me this. How come the European country which is furthest ahead of all the other EU members is tiny Malta which went out and procured vaccines on its own?

    So Carlotta you are saying that countries could have gone out and got vaccines regardless of their status of EU membership?
    Germany did.
    So how come the EU is the baddy? They just turned out to be useless at vaccine procurement.

    As with everything else, membership of the EU was incidental to the real issue.
    The EU's defence of their procurement is "if we hadn't done it the small countries would have got nothing" which sits at odds with their smallest member being furthest ahead because they got organised themselves
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 3,647
    TimT said:

    Floater said:

    Le Pen's expression is priceless



    Wait, what did you just say?????

    Indeed, she could just not believe what she was hearing. Perhaps she can run as the moderate in the run-off against Macron now.
    Her new slogan: 'Vote Le Pen to stop the fascist!'
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532

    Floater said:

    Son's arm still hurts 24 hours after his jab - but count me in!!!

    Mine did too - worst about 36 hours in and now eased off to nothing. Headache at 36 hours as well, but minor.
    Interesting - SinoVac administered in Indonesia also led to splitting headache - fixed with paracetamol....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,675

    DavidL said:

    Yay for us!

    Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
    And let them settle,
    Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.
    Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
    Add lots of Norman French to some
    Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.

    Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
    Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
    Vietnamese and Sudanese.

    Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
    And Pakistanis,
    Combine with some Guyanese
    And turn up the heat.

    Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
    Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
    Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
    And Palestinians
    Then add to the melting pot.
    Leave the ingredients to simmer.

    As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
    Binding them together with English.

    Allow time to be cool.

    Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
    Serve with justice
    And enjoy.

    Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.

    Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.
    Benjamin Zephaniah
    Will no-one stand up for the Beaker People?
    Oh come on, that's a mug's game.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 290
    Accountants and lawyers are always expected to be honest with their clients, while with doctors this is a qualified expectation. Doctors may sometimes not tell their patient their real diagnosis, for example if they are dying or diagnosed as mentally ill.

    Will the government now tell us the truth about its real intentions regarding the lockdown in the upcoming public statement, or will it just flannel its way through again?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    Floater said:
    Show me the Phase III Clinicals in the over 65s.....
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860
    DavidL said:

    Although we can rightly be pleased with the rationality of the great British public its interesting that the number of those approving is up 21% from December. That's a really big change.

    People are being fed a fairly constant diet of good numbers, are excited about freedom coming, and millions of olds have now been jabbed and none of them has been reported to have turned green or grown a new head. These things are good for building public confidence.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,534
    Interesting how, like Brexit, this stuff crosses over conventional boundaries. it's happening in the SNP and the Labour party, and obviously among feminists, who will be found in all parts of the political spectrum; I imagine on the centre right too if you can bothered to find out. I wonder what Matthew Parris makes of it all. I am sure he will tell us, if he hasn't already.

    All that makes it a slightly hard political card to play. mainstream labour is declining to answer the question. Can the Tories turn it into an issue with no downside for them? Unlike antisemitism there is an impression that not quite all respectable opinion is on the same side when it comes to changing rooms, meh having babies and chestmilk.

    Will Boris pick it up?

  • felixfelix Posts: 12,170
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    Kids Company decision out - skimming the judgement its pretty scathing of the Official Receiver:

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,454
    Friend of mine, whose wife tested positive a day or so after, I believe, he had his first vaccination is, according to his daughter, on a ventilator!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 38,891
    edited February 12

    Angela Rayner to be made a Privy Councillor.

    Bet she never imagined that when she drifted out of school at 16.

    Good on her.

    I really do not understand why she is rarely if ever seen on the media

    She is deputy leader of the labour party and anonymous
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 3,077
    TOPPING said:

    god only knows why I'm doing this but fpt

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Phil said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Its 4 weeks since my dad has his jab (Pfizer) and 2 weeks since my mum had hers (AZ). Hopefully they would both be okay now even if they got the virus.

    Neil Ferguson and Susan Michie will be along later to tell you why its NOT OK.
    Why are you like this contrarian?

    The published evidence is pretty clear - after the first jab it takes around two weeks before you see signs of immunity showing up in the data, and after three weeks it’s overwhelmingly obvious. If I was in your Mum’s position Andy_JS I’d personally give it another week to be sure, but your Dad should be pretty safe.

    If we got variants spreading widely that these vaccines offered no protection at all against, then that calculus might change in the future.
    I am like this because I believe I have sacrificed quite enough, in terms of my liberty, my mental well being and in the near future probably quite large amounts of my hard earned cash. And for what?

    Even before the pandemic struck, the most long lived and most prosperous generation in history.

    Young people have sacrificed far, far more than enough. Far more. As will soon be very apparent.

    Irish joke: Paddy and Liam are trying to get a horse under a bridge, but the bridge is just too low. Liam: We could take his shoes off. Paddy: But it's not his feet that don't fit, it's his ears.

    Almost impossible to believe that after a year of this you still don't see the fallacy in this most long lived and most prosperous generation in history stuff.
    Come forward and name a generation that has fared better. You can't, because there isn't.
    That is not where the fallacy is.
    So you admit the boomer generation had it the best ever. Good. The choice, given the nature of covid, was to at least keep our children in school so maybe some more very sick boomers died. Or maybe didn't, who knows.

    Epic point missing.

    No point spending time on this, but you do realise there is nothing uniquely age-specific about covid? It kills the same age groups in the same proportions as - for starters - flu, cancer, heart disease and pneumonia. What do you think the knock-on effects on the younger-than-boomers would be if you let the disease run unchecked? You only take the "boomers" out of the picture if you not only take no steps to prevent them getting the disease but also deny them hospital care when they get it. Is that what you are proposing?
    Please do not pretend that the rationing of healthcare did not exist before covid, when it manifestly did and always has done. The idea that doctors were suddenly faced with difficult decisions after decades of plenty is completely false.

    I accept healthcare would have been rationed more thinly than it even was at the height of covid, and perhaps some more people (of an average age of 80) might have died.

    But out children would have stayed in school. Its not we would have sent a a quarter of a million 20-year olds over the top at the Somme.
    Anyone think he'll shut up when the kids go back to school if lockdown continues? Or is the "Will nobody think of the children?" just an excuse to keep whining about lockdown.
    It is absolutely justified for people, whether they be Mark Harper, David Blunkett, Julia Hartley-Brewer, god help us, or our very own @contrarian, to question and continue to question the reasons for lockdown.

    The government has taken away a significant amount of our freedom and gets to determine who we are and are not allowed to have sex with and where.

    That to my mind, and whatever the justification, does not just get a nod through. It may be, and as we have seen with the case numbers, and the trolleys in corridors of national health services very very probably is, absolutely justified. But not automatically because some scientists say so.

    Wonderful as PB is, full as it is of questioning, thoughtful, intellectually demanding folk, the complete and whole falling in behind the government on this, while seeking to ostracise those who dissent, I find strange, perhaps disturbing.
    That is bollocks as regards Contra. He spews lies and misinformation on this. The near 100% kickback is for that reason. You should join it.
    He is a menace. More boradly, though, the turning point will come when people look at the numbers that the Govt itself provides and says "why are we still doing this"? That's one reason, incidentally, why you shouldn't buy Contra's view of the world. Why would the Government be providing us with stats that we can use to form our own opinions (as misguided as they may be) if there was some overarching plot to leave us like this for as long as possible. Authoritarianism withers in the face of transparency.
    @contra's point is that without pressure to look at the numbers and the associated issues (economic, mental health, education, etc) then there would be a temptation for the government to take its time.

    If everyone was like PB the numbers would be incidental and the govt could continue to listen to the medics and scientists who would form policy.

    It is no stretch to think that a possible sequence of events could be: numbers low, every right (small r)-thinking person says well that's it we've got it cracked, out of lockdown we come, then the CMO says we can't come out of lockdown because we need to be sure the numbers won't rise again.

    And that means an open-ended lockdown. With only maybe Rishi as a voice against.

    Why? Just because the govt and the country would have become used to following the science.
    If I was a fan of an open-ended lockdown and I wanted utter overcaution or I got a kick out of having people locked down, I'd want the voices on the other side to be coming out with incoherent and dishonest crap. So easy to ignore or sideline the Piers Corbyns, or the Ivor Cummins of this world.

    The thing that makes it all dangerous is that some people who are so desperate to deny the reality of the situation actually believe the bollocks. Which is why we had people invading hospitals "to show the truth of their emptiness" or demonstrating outside of them, or holding covid parties, and so on.
    Hell, Yeadon and a couple of the others that Young was hosting was actively publicising dishonest antivaxxer crap, and that's outright dangerous in itself.

    If it wasn't for that, I could simply dismiss them as pathetic deniers who can't come to terms with a crisis and I'd be all in favour of them doing whatever it takes as a coping mechanism.
    As I said, the government is aware that there is opposition to lockdown. Not on PB, obvs, but "out there". If some people were storming hospitals that is one manifestation.

    But I'll take your let's not storm hospitals and counter with what about the woman who was arrested for trying to take her mother out of a care home? All good and proper for the state to do? What about not letting people who were dying see their spouses or families.

    What possible reason would there be for an 80-yr old who is dying to be denied seeing or being hugged by their 50-yr old daughter or their 15-yr old grand-daughter? All good?

    Lockdown worked. It has prevented deaths, brought down hospitalisations, and given space for vaccines to be developed. But it is also an unprecedented restriction of our freedom.

    So if people want to over-react about that, I'm not hugely worried. And you should trust people more. As @rcs1000 tells us, without formal lockdowns people voluntarily lock themselves down.

    And what if, come Feb 22nd or March 15th, numbers/deaths/hospitalisations are super low? And what if Chris Whitty says "we can't open up because we would risk infections rising again". Without the knowledge that there would be substantial opposition (again, not from PB, obvs), why wouldn't the government follow that advice?

    And those are excellent points - they are lost in the mire of the manure piles that the nutters and denialists are spreading over the entire subject.

    The issue with voluntary lockdowns is the lag in the system - Robert has pointed out that the voluntary lockdowns happen later than people would be comfortable with, down to the three week lag between infections and deaths. And, of course, Government support to businesses is less forthcoming when they're allowed to be open.

    On the broader issue - if the vanguard of the resistance is the Piers Corbyns, Ivor Cummins, JHBs, and Toby Youngs of the world, basing on obvious fictions, and supported by the nutters picketing hospitals - do you think that helps or hinders?

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,534

    DavidL said:

    Yay for us!

    Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
    And let them settle,
    Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.
    Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
    Add lots of Norman French to some
    Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.

    Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
    Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
    Vietnamese and Sudanese.

    Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
    And Pakistanis,
    Combine with some Guyanese
    And turn up the heat.

    Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
    Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
    Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
    And Palestinians
    Then add to the melting pot.
    Leave the ingredients to simmer.

    As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
    Binding them together with English.

    Allow time to be cool.

    Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
    Serve with justice
    And enjoy.

    Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.

    Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.
    Benjamin Zephaniah
    Will no-one stand up for the Beaker People?
    What no Jewish people?

  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860
    algarkirk said:

    Interesting how, like Brexit, this stuff crosses over conventional boundaries. it's happening in the SNP and the Labour party, and obviously among feminists, who will be found in all parts of the political spectrum; I imagine on the centre right too if you can bothered to find out. I wonder what Matthew Parris makes of it all. I am sure he will tell us, if he hasn't already.

    All that makes it a slightly hard political card to play. mainstream labour is declining to answer the question. Can the Tories turn it into an issue with no downside for them? Unlike antisemitism there is an impression that not quite all respectable opinion is on the same side when it comes to changing rooms, meh having babies and chestmilk.

    Will Boris pick it up?

    Not if he's got any sense. Ditto Starmer.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 35,675

    Kids Company decision out - skimming the judgement its pretty scathing of the Official Receiver:

    That's....unexpected.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    Apols for posting again - but I think this is relevant to the situation in France:

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 6,820
    OT

    Has this already been noted?
    Today's date is palindromic

    But it also reads upside down. What is that called?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860

    Angela Rayner to be made a Privy Councillor.

    Bet she never imagined that when she drifted out of school at 16.

    Good on her.

    I really do not understand why she is rarely if ever seen on the media

    She is deputy leader of the labour party and anonymous
    Probably the product of the general Plague situation - they're all nearly invisible except Starmer - and her not having a shadow portfolio. Insofar as I understand it (which isn't very far at all) I think she's more focussed on party than government issues?
  • ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,214

    Floater said:

    Son's arm still hurts 24 hours after his jab - but count me in!!!

    Mine did too - worst about 36 hours in and now eased off to nothing. Headache at 36 hours as well, but minor.
    Interesting - SinoVac administered in Indonesia also led to splitting headache - fixed with paracetamol....
    Headache obviously attributable to the nanobots rearranging the DNA in preparation for biological integration with our soon-to-be overlords from the planet Zarg.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    Deaths higher than yesterday - but the downward trend in 7 day average is slightly stronger and now clearly established:


  • PhilPhil Posts: 405
    algarkirk said:

    Interesting how, like Brexit, this stuff crosses over conventional boundaries. it's happening in the SNP and the Labour party, and obviously among feminists, who will be found in all parts of the political spectrum; I imagine on the centre right too if you can bothered to find out. I wonder what Matthew Parris makes of it all. I am sure he will tell us, if he hasn't already.

    All that makes it a slightly hard political card to play. mainstream labour is declining to answer the question. Can the Tories turn it into an issue with no downside for them? Unlike antisemitism there is an impression that not quite all respectable opinion is on the same side when it comes to changing rooms, meh having babies and chestmilk.

    Will Boris pick it up?

    The Conservatives have been trying to find angles to use trans issues to split the left for some time I believe - IIRC they were trying out various questions in their private polling just prior to the last GE. But for whatever reason they decided not to go down that route in their GE campaign - perhaps the focus groups demonstrated that explicitly taking sides would probably lose as many votes as it gained?

    (NB, the chestfeeding story was just another piece of Times anti-trans bullshit - the relevant documents can be found online & it’s entirely clear that this language was there to be used /in addition to the usual terms/ if the person giving birth preferred it that way. I saw a bunch of trans people on Twitter who were involved in the consultation for it & they all stated very clearly that their own feedback was that this should be optional, additional language, not a replacement for the existing terminology. Which seems decent & reasonable doesn’t it? Meanwhile the Times runs with a completely different spin on the story...why would that be do you think?)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    Wales widening its lead - and strong performances from NI & Scotland:

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 29,455
    edited February 12
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Reposting this link from the last thread: excellent long read article about Nikki Haley, which is essential reading for anyone intending to be on the next US presidential election.
    https://www.politico.com/interactives/2021/magazine-nikki-haleys-choice/

    This bit from the end of the piece is quite amazing...

    ...Perhaps the greatest threat to Haley is Fox News after dark. There is a reason she went on Laura Ingraham’s show on January 25—a few weeks after blaming Trump for the siege of the Capitol—and said we should “give the man a break.” (This was my latest Haley-induced whiplash; it made, by my count, three distinct stances on Trump in the span of six weeks.)...
    ...Hoping for a hint, I asked Haley on January 12: Does she still consider Trump a friend?

    “Friend,” she answered, “is a loose term.”


    ... in the contact of this story, also posted today.

    Nikki Haley breaks with Trump: 'We shouldn't have followed him'
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/538573-haley-breaks-with-trump-we-shouldnt-have-followed-him

    Haley is probably the GOP's best chance to win the 2024 Presidential election but also the least likely to win the GOP nomination of the main contenders, the best she can do is be the VP pick to balance the ticket for Pence or Cruz, one of whom will likely be the nominee if Trump does not run again.
    Cruz has no chance.

    I'd sooner put money on Tucker Carlson.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 10,993
    felix said:
    It rests on the proposition that by sharing a platform with her, McDonnell is lending credibility to her as a transphobe.

    I would suggest a rather more radical proposition, that being seen with John McDonnell only acts to push her out of publicity...
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860
    fox327 said:

    Accountants and lawyers are always expected to be honest with their clients, while with doctors this is a qualified expectation. Doctors may sometimes not tell their patient their real diagnosis, for example if they are dying or diagnosed as mentally ill.

    Will the government now tell us the truth about its real intentions regarding the lockdown in the upcoming public statement, or will it just flannel its way through again?

    If they cough up a plan which gives a reasonably clear definition of the metrics that will determine when the phases of unlocking occur, then there'll be a plan for which they can be held to account. As to whether we get that or a load of waffle, I'm afraid we're just going to have to wait another couple of weeks to find out.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 5,066
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Reposting this link from the last thread: excellent long read article about Nikki Haley, which is essential reading for anyone intending to be on the next US presidential election.
    https://www.politico.com/interactives/2021/magazine-nikki-haleys-choice/

    This bit from the end of the piece is quite amazing...

    ...Perhaps the greatest threat to Haley is Fox News after dark. There is a reason she went on Laura Ingraham’s show on January 25—a few weeks after blaming Trump for the siege of the Capitol—and said we should “give the man a break.” (This was my latest Haley-induced whiplash; it made, by my count, three distinct stances on Trump in the span of six weeks.)...
    ...Hoping for a hint, I asked Haley on January 12: Does she still consider Trump a friend?

    “Friend,” she answered, “is a loose term.”


    ... in the contact of this story, also posted today.

    Nikki Haley breaks with Trump: 'We shouldn't have followed him'
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/538573-haley-breaks-with-trump-we-shouldnt-have-followed-him

    Haley is probably the GOP's best chance to win the 2024 Presidential election but also the least likely to win the GOP nomination of the main contenders, the best she can do is be the VP pick to balance the ticket for Pence or Cruz, one of whom will likely be the nominee if Trump does not run again.
    Cruz has no chance.
    Hope you`re wrong I`ve lumped on him at tasty prices.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 3,647
    Barnesian said:

    OT

    Has this already been noted?
    Today's date is palindromic

    But it also reads upside down. What is that called?

    An ambigram - good afterNOON to you.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    Barnesian said:

    OT

    Has this already been noted?
    Today's date is palindromic

    But it also reads upside down. What is that called?

    Wiki says its an ambigram:


  • FloaterFloater Posts: 12,238
    TimT said:

    Floater said:

    Le Pen's expression is priceless



    Wait, what did you just say?????

    Indeed, she could just not believe what she was hearing. Perhaps she can run as the moderate in the run-off against Macron now.
    I had to check a couple of times to make sure it wasn't just some strange translation....

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 21,454
    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Yay for us!

    Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
    And let them settle,
    Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.
    Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
    Add lots of Norman French to some
    Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.

    Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
    Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
    Vietnamese and Sudanese.

    Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
    And Pakistanis,
    Combine with some Guyanese
    And turn up the heat.

    Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
    Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
    Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
    And Palestinians
    Then add to the melting pot.
    Leave the ingredients to simmer.

    As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
    Binding them together with English.

    Allow time to be cool.

    Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
    Serve with justice
    And enjoy.

    Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.

    Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.
    Benjamin Zephaniah
    Will no-one stand up for the Beaker People?
    What no Jewish people?

    Palestinians? After all, that was where they started. Unless you're a follower of Koestler.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 7,229

    Wales widening its lead - and strong performances from NI & Scotland:

    We are going to end up at the bottom!!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 46,532
    DavidL said:

    Kids Company decision out - skimming the judgement its pretty scathing of the Official Receiver:

    That's....unexpected.
    Skimmed it (it's long) but the judge clearly has little time for the Official Receiver.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 38,769

    Deaths higher than yesterday - but the downward trend in 7 day average is slightly stronger and now clearly established:


    Really great week-on-week numbers.

    The Bastard Bug is on the run....
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860

    Deaths higher than yesterday - but the downward trend in 7 day average is slightly stronger and now clearly established:


    And just shy of record vaccination figures for Northern Ireland, to complete yesterday's returns - 503k in total.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 29,455

    DavidL said:

    Yay for us!

    Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
    And let them settle,
    Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.
    Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
    Add lots of Norman French to some
    Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.

    Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
    Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
    Vietnamese and Sudanese.

    Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
    And Pakistanis,
    Combine with some Guyanese
    And turn up the heat.

    Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
    Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
    Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
    And Palestinians
    Then add to the melting pot.
    Leave the ingredients to simmer.

    As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
    Binding them together with English.

    Allow time to be cool.

    Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
    Serve with justice
    And enjoy.

    Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.

    Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.
    Benjamin Zephaniah
    Will no-one stand up for the Beaker People?
    Bunch of muppets.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 12,238
    So the French government - smearing vaccines and trying to be perceived as more "tough" on Islam than Le Pen.

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 1,349

    Floater said:

    Son's arm still hurts 24 hours after his jab - but count me in!!!

    Mine did too - worst about 36 hours in and now eased off to nothing. Headache at 36 hours as well, but minor.
    AZ?
    Yep
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 6,860

    Wales widening its lead - and strong performances from NI & Scotland:

    We are going to end up at the bottom!!
    Very likely, even if not by very much. Slightly higher levels of vaccine hesitancy in England, I suspect (although, given those very encouraging polling figures, hopefully not enough to cause serious problems for the country.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    HYUFD said:
    There can be no liberation for us without liberation for all

    And accordingly, you're not even allowed to discuss things with other people. Or, indeed, achieve any partial success, ever.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 26,999

    TOPPING said:

    god only knows why I'm doing this but fpt

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Phil said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Its 4 weeks since my dad has his jab (Pfizer) and 2 weeks since my mum had hers (AZ). Hopefully they would both be okay now even if they got the virus.

    Neil Ferguson and Susan Michie will be along later to tell you why its NOT OK.
    Why are you like this contrarian?

    The published evidence is pretty clear - after the first jab it takes around two weeks before you see signs of immunity showing up in the data, and after three weeks it’s overwhelmingly obvious. If I was in your Mum’s position Andy_JS I’d personally give it another week to be sure, but your Dad should be pretty safe.

    If we got variants spreading widely that these vaccines offered no protection at all against, then that calculus might change in the future.
    I am like this because I believe I have sacrificed quite enough, in terms of my liberty, my mental well being and in the near future probably quite large amounts of my hard earned cash. And for what?

    Even before the pandemic struck, the most long lived and most prosperous generation in history.

    Young people have sacrificed far, far more than enough. Far more. As will soon be very apparent.

    Irish joke: Paddy and Liam are trying to get a horse under a bridge, but the bridge is just too low. Liam: We could take his shoes off. Paddy: But it's not his feet that don't fit, it's his ears.

    Almost impossible to believe that after a year of this you still don't see the fallacy in this most long lived and most prosperous generation in history stuff.
    Come forward and name a generation that has fared better. You can't, because there isn't.
    That is not where the fallacy is.
    So you admit the boomer generation had it the best ever. Good. The choice, given the nature of covid, was to at least keep our children in school so maybe some more very sick boomers died. Or maybe didn't, who knows.

    Epic point missing.

    No point spending time on this, but you do realise there is nothing uniquely age-specific about covid? It kills the same age groups in the same proportions as - for starters - flu, cancer, heart disease and pneumonia. What do you think the knock-on effects on the younger-than-boomers would be if you let the disease run unchecked? You only take the "boomers" out of the picture if you not only take no steps to prevent them getting the disease but also deny them hospital care when they get it. Is that what you are proposing?
    Please do not pretend that the rationing of healthcare did not exist before covid, when it manifestly did and always has done. The idea that doctors were suddenly faced with difficult decisions after decades of plenty is completely false.

    I accept healthcare would have been rationed more thinly than it even was at the height of covid, and perhaps some more people (of an average age of 80) might have died.

    But out children would have stayed in school. Its not we would have sent a a quarter of a million 20-year olds over the top at the Somme.
    Anyone think he'll shut up when the kids go back to school if lockdown continues? Or is the "Will nobody think of the children?" just an excuse to keep whining about lockdown.
    It is absolutely justified for people, whether they be Mark Harper, David Blunkett, Julia Hartley-Brewer, god help us, or our very own @contrarian, to question and continue to question the reasons for lockdown.

    The government has taken away a significant amount of our freedom and gets to determine who we are and are not allowed to have sex with and where.

    That to my mind, and whatever the justification, does not just get a nod through. It may be, and as we have seen with the case numbers, and the trolleys in corridors of national health services very very probably is, absolutely justified. But not automatically because some scientists say so.

    Wonderful as PB is, full as it is of questioning, thoughtful, intellectually demanding folk, the complete and whole falling in behind the government on this, while seeking to ostracise those who dissent, I find strange, perhaps disturbing.
    That is bollocks as regards Contra. He spews lies and misinformation on this. The near 100% kickback is for that reason. You should join it.
    He is a menace. More boradly, though, the turning point will come when people look at the numbers that the Govt itself provides and says "why are we still doing this"? That's one reason, incidentally, why you shouldn't buy Contra's view of the world. Why would the Government be providing us with stats that we can use to form our own opinions (as misguided as they may be) if there was some overarching plot to leave us like this for as long as possible. Authoritarianism withers in the face of transparency.
    @contra's point is that without pressure to look at the numbers and the associated issues (economic, mental health, education, etc) then there would be a temptation for the government to take its time.

    If everyone was like PB the numbers would be incidental and the govt could continue to listen to the medics and scientists who would form policy.

    It is no stretch to think that a possible sequence of events could be: numbers low, every right (small r)-thinking person says well that's it we've got it cracked, out of lockdown we come, then the CMO says we can't come out of lockdown because we need to be sure the numbers won't rise again.

    And that means an open-ended lockdown. With only maybe Rishi as a voice against.

    Why? Just because the govt and the country would have become used to following the science.
    If I was a fan of an open-ended lockdown and I wanted utter overcaution or I got a kick out of having people locked down, I'd want the voices on the other side to be coming out with incoherent and dishonest crap. So easy to ignore or sideline the Piers Corbyns, or the Ivor Cummins of this world.

    The thing that makes it all dangerous is that some people who are so desperate to deny the reality of the situation actually believe the bollocks. Which is why we had people invading hospitals "to show the truth of their emptiness" or demonstrating outside of them, or holding covid parties, and so on.
    Hell, Yeadon and a couple of the others that Young was hosting was actively publicising dishonest antivaxxer crap, and that's outright dangerous in itself.

    If it wasn't for that, I could simply dismiss them as pathetic deniers who can't come to terms with a crisis and I'd be all in favour of them doing whatever it takes as a coping mechanism.
    As I said, the government is aware that there is opposition to lockdown. Not on PB, obvs, but "out there". If some people were storming hospitals that is one manifestation.

    But I'll take your let's not storm hospitals and counter with what about the woman who was arrested for trying to take her mother out of a care home? All good and proper for the state to do? What about not letting people who were dying see their spouses or families.

    What possible reason would there be for an 80-yr old who is dying to be denied seeing or being hugged by their 50-yr old daughter or their 15-yr old grand-daughter? All good?

    Lockdown worked. It has prevented deaths, brought down hospitalisations, and given space for vaccines to be developed. But it is also an unprecedented restriction of our freedom.

    So if people want to over-react about that, I'm not hugely worried. And you should trust people more. As @rcs1000 tells us, without formal lockdowns people voluntarily lock themselves down.

    And what if, come Feb 22nd or March 15th, numbers/deaths/hospitalisations are super low? And what if Chris Whitty says "we can't open up because we would risk infections rising again". Without the knowledge that there would be substantial opposition (again, not from PB, obvs), why wouldn't the government follow that advice?

    And those are excellent points - they are lost in the mire of the manure piles that the nutters and denialists are spreading over the entire subject.

    The issue with voluntary lockdowns is the lag in the system - Robert has pointed out that the voluntary lockdowns happen later than people would be comfortable with, down to the three week lag between infections and deaths. And, of course, Government support to businesses is less forthcoming when they're allowed to be open.

    On the broader issue - if the vanguard of the resistance is the Piers Corbyns, Ivor Cummins, JHBs, and Toby Youngs of the world, basing on obvious fictions, and supported by the nutters picketing hospitals - do you think that helps or hinders?

    Well put like that...
  • Makes one proud to be British.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950

    Wales widening its lead - and strong performances from NI & Scotland:

    We are going to end up at the bottom!!
    Merely keeping up on our geographic position (yes, some of us is alongside or above Wales etc, but we're also definitely below the others)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 36,093
    Floater said:

    TimT said:

    Floater said:

    Le Pen's expression is priceless



    Wait, what did you just say?????

    Indeed, she could just not believe what she was hearing. Perhaps she can run as the moderate in the run-off against Macron now.
    I had to check a couple of times to make sure it wasn't just some strange translation....

    What has Macron actually said?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,534

    algarkirk said:

    DavidL said:

    Yay for us!

    Take some Picts, Celts and Silures
    And let them settle,
    Then overrun them with Roman conquerors.
    Remove the Romans after approximately 400 years
    Add lots of Norman French to some
    Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Vikings, then stir vigorously.

    Mix some hot Chileans, cool Jamaicans, Dominicans,
    Trinidadians and Bajans with some Ethiopians, Chinese,
    Vietnamese and Sudanese.

    Then take a blend of Somalians, Sri Lankans, Nigerians
    And Pakistanis,
    Combine with some Guyanese
    And turn up the heat.

    Sprinkle some fresh Indians, Malaysians, Bosnians,
    Iraqis and Bangladeshis together with some
    Afghans, Spanish, Turkish, Kurdish, Japanese
    And Palestinians
    Then add to the melting pot.
    Leave the ingredients to simmer.

    As they mix and blend allow their languages to flourish
    Binding them together with English.

    Allow time to be cool.

    Add some unity, understanding, and respect for the future,
    Serve with justice
    And enjoy.

    Note: All the ingredients are equally important. Treating one ingredient better than another will leave a bitter unpleasant taste.

    Warning: An unequal spread of justice will damage the people and cause pain. Give justice and equality to all.
    Benjamin Zephaniah
    Will no-one stand up for the Beaker People?
    What no Jewish people?

    Palestinians? After all, that was where they started. Unless you're a follower of Koestler.
    Good luck with that explanation.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 38,891
    edited February 12
    Scott_xP said:
    That field work is nearly a week old

    Will be interesting to see this weekends polls
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 62,950
    TimT said:

    Floater said:

    Le Pen's expression is priceless



    Wait, what did you just say?????

    Indeed, she could just not believe what she was hearing. Perhaps she can run as the moderate in the run-off against Macron now.
    It is one of those rare, unguarded reactions from a politician, and so very amusing.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 3,647
    edited February 12
    Scott_xP said:
    Prime Minister Don't Know catching up on Prime Minister Don't Know...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 12,238
    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:

    TimT said:

    Floater said:

    Le Pen's expression is priceless



    Wait, what did you just say?????

    Indeed, she could just not believe what she was hearing. Perhaps she can run as the moderate in the run-off against Macron now.
    I had to check a couple of times to make sure it wasn't just some strange translation....

    What has Macron actually said?
    It wasnt Macron - click the link in my original post to see what was said by the minister
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