That cohort of the elderly are those who saw the benefit of vaccines saving their generation from polio and were aware of how it ended the worldwide scourge of smallpox. Vaccination for them was a wonderful thing.
On that general topic, the GP on BBC Breakfast this morning was talking about the hot topic of vaccine hesitancy in some BAME groups. She related her experience as being that older people from all communities were keen on the jab, but in some of them it was the younger relatives picking up conspiracy crap from WhatsApp and such like who were approaching them and trying to put them off.
Anti-social media is a scourge.
As to tonight's presser, I'm encouraged that Van-Tam thinks it likely that the SA variant isn't more transmissible than the Kent variant, which ought hopefully to mean it doesn't explode everywhere and cause serious damage. But I'm still just as worried that something even worse will get in from abroad and wreck everything, because the measures to keep new variants out are so half-baked.
There's also the possibility that the virus might decide that being nicer to is hosts is the evolutionary path to take. Or it might turn into Leon's Satan Bug. Either way, globally cases are showing their most sustained continuous drop since the pandemic began. Focus on that for now.
And the conclusion, exactly what Cummings would have wanted:
"But in terms of how things operated, the Vaccine Taskforce is being seen inside government as exemplary. ‘It makes us ask: is it possible to get things done at this speed and with this competence outside of a pandemic?’ says one minister. An unpublished Treasury report on the process is understood to describe it as a blueprint for an industrial strategy in the future
It’s important to ask why the vaccine taskforce seems to have worked, while track and trace and Cummings’s moonshot both failed.
Except they didn't fail. Testing is at 800k per day now, and the Western world was quite open as to how far they'd allow tracking apps to take hold.
We dont score points for testing lots of people if those people dont isolate. For a variety of fairly obvious reasons far too many did not. The most common reasons being late results, financial costs, job security risks and poor housing.
Shit. The truly alarming thing there is what I feared most: past infection with ‘normal’ Covid provides no immunity against SA Covid. This bug is Satanic
If the Safferbug runs riot in the UK this spring we will be back to square one. They won’t be able to tweak any of the vaccines in time. People will catch it again who’ve already had it. People vaxxed with AZ will also get it. Hopefully they will only get mild/moderate cases, but we don’t know that yet, for sure.
I don’t want to come over all Black Rook but this is ominous. To me it suggests lockdown until Autumn. And yet I just don’t think the economy can hack that, or the nation’s mental health. So what gives?
It’s a setback, but you are probably going too far.
The sample size in the new study was small. Of 1749 participants, 42 got sick, of whom 19 had the vaccine and 23 had a placebo, producing an efficacy figure of just 22 per cent.
However, no one became severely ill or died.
That is partly because participants were young – average age 31 – but also because while the vaccine doesn’t appear to prompt a significant immune response in the form of antibodies specific to 501Y.V2, it does still boost a broader immune response in the form of T cells. That also appears to be true of reinfection.
So AstraZeneca believes its vaccine still offers protection against serious illness and death from the variant. The same, with respect to T-Cells, will likely be true of reinfection.
In any case, South Africa has shipments of the Pfizer, Novavax and Johnson & Johnson vaccines on order, and all appear to provide protection against the variant, including among over 65s.o.
Finally, if you want some good news from South Africa, look at their case numbers and mortality over the last six weeks. Dropping like a rock.
Yes, the drop in cases and deaths in SA is encouraging. No one seems entirely sure why. Herd immunity in townships has been posited. Tho I also note the SA health minister is warning of a third wave
There is no mystery about the falling case numbers in South Africa. They started a lockdown at the end of December, and surprise surprise, cases peaked around two weeks later.
You’re wrong, I believe. There is some mystery because the lockdown basically didn’t happen in the townships, because it is impossible to social distance/isolate or practice great hygiene in these densely populated, impoverished places. Yet still cases have crashed. Hence the herd immunity theory, tho it is just a theory, I admit
Similar things have happened in India. Which is even poorer, and more crowded. Cases have just fallen away (long before any vaccines arrived)
An interesting point well made, but.... India? Have you been to cities like Mumbai, Delhi, Calcutta?
I don’t see how you could possibly lockdown strictly in those enormous slums, and as for hygiene...
For comparison, America’s largest city in 1918 was nyc, with a population of 5m. Mumbai has a population of 18m
America’s 2nd largest city in 1918 was Chicago - 2.6m. New Delhi has a population of 16m
Yes, yes, but can they bat?
They can, but they use different bats.
More on topic, what's the governance structure of the Crown Office, is there any UK institution that can manage the problems without nuclear options such as the suspension of Holyrood?
Crown Office is under the control of the Lord Advocate. Before Holyrood this was basically a UK appointment and the Crown Office had a huge degree of independence arguably too much in that it was not accountable to anyone. Post devolution the Lord Advocate became a member of the Scottish government akin to the Attorney General in rUK. This has, to put it politely, proved suboptimal. In England, AIUI, prosecutions are a matter for the DPP who is not a government minister. This is clearly a good thing. The separation of powers is very important.
For years after devolution Crown Office clung to its independence but we are now seeing that crumble and what looks painfully like politically motivated prosecutions. I am not saying that Salmond was such but the way that the "evidence" was, err, collected caused considerable concern before the trial and during it. The current prosecutions for alleged breaches of the Contempt of Court Act directed at journalists seem ill advised too.
For decades most of the Advocates Depute who prosecuted crime in Scotland were senior silks looking to tick a public service box before going onto the bench. The downside was that these silks often had limited knowledge of criminal law but they were smart and absolutely independent, by no means dependent on their salaries which in most cases were a pittance to what they had earned before. The Crown Office is now more "professional" in that it has ADs who serve there for long periods of time and who don't have that independence. I am not completely convinced that the trade off has proven advantageous.
Nicely phrased.
BTW, just in case it has escaped noticed, Salmond not turning up to inquiry tomorrow.
What kind of inquiry can it be when the principal witness can simply opt out?
Well, they could force him to come but since this is essentially his complaint if he chooses not to come voluntarily it may prove a handy excuse for shutting things down. These things happen in banana republics apparently. Scotland is of course not such because the sun hardly ever shines.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Yes, it's excellent - I feel I've understood the issue for the first time. Thanks!
Except it's not really correct. Both the adenovirus vector vaccines (AZN, J&J) and the mRNA vaccines are hijacking some of our cells to produce copies of the spike protein bit of the Covid virus. From the point of view of our immune system, they are making very much the same thing.
The difference is perhaps in how effectively they do the hijacking. And also in the speed of manufacturing (though the viral vector vaccines are for now easier to produce in very large quantities).
Johnson is refusing to rule out a lockdown extension.
Panicky Hancock presser at 5...
Over a week-end, we are now almost at the post vaccine lockdown stage.
So...about those pubs....
WTF are you withering on about today?
We are not post vaccine by any means of the imagination. Getting the first dose to over 70 year olds is a very good first part of the vaccination process, but it's just under a quarter of the vulnerable doses that need to be done.
I doubt even you would deny there is an attempt today to discredit the vaccine program as a way out of lockdown. By some in the media and some in SAGE. The government? who knows.
Bit Johnson refused to rule out a lockdown extension, even though we are ahead of schedule in vaccination, and on every measure the disease is receding.
Reporting facts is not seeking to discredit. The very worst thing that can happen is that we all decide the vaccines have solved all our Covid problems and we lift all restrictions only to find evidence of limitations on the efficacy of the vaccines was ignored or downplayed. That way we end up back with more deaths and yet more lockdowns next winter all because the Politicians were too frightened of upsetting people like you and their more vocal (and less intelligent) back benchers.
The truth, Richard, is that viruses always mutate and vaccines always need to be tweaked. We will never, ever arrive at a point where we can guarantee someone won;t get a form coronavirus, or die from it. Unless we are prepared to make sacrifices that will mean the end of basically everything we have known in Britain now for ever.
But that is a political decision. You are attacking the scientists for presenting the evidence rather than the politicians for whatever decision they may or may not make on the basis of that evidence.
Shit. The truly alarming thing there is what I feared most: past infection with ‘normal’ Covid provides no immunity against SA Covid. This bug is Satanic
If the Safferbug runs riot in the UK this spring we will be back to square one. They won’t be able to tweak any of the vaccines in time. People will catch it again who’ve already had it. People vaxxed with AZ will also get it. Hopefully they will only get mild/moderate cases, but we don’t know that yet, for sure.
I don’t want to come over all Black Rook but this is ominous. To me it suggests lockdown until Autumn. And yet I just don’t think the economy can hack that, or the nation’s mental health. So what gives?
It’s a setback, but you are probably going too far.
The sample size in the new study was small. Of 1749 participants, 42 got sick, of whom 19 had the vaccine and 23 had a placebo, producing an efficacy figure of just 22 per cent.
However, no one became severely ill or died.
That is partly because participants were young – average age 31 – but also because while the vaccine doesn’t appear to prompt a significant immune response in the form of antibodies specific to 501Y.V2, it does still boost a broader immune response in the form of T cells. That also appears to be true of reinfection.
So AstraZeneca believes its vaccine still offers protection against serious illness and death from the variant. The same, with respect to T-Cells, will likely be true of reinfection.
In any case, South Africa has shipments of the Pfizer, Novavax and Johnson & Johnson vaccines on order, and all appear to provide protection against the variant, including among over 65s.o.
Finally, if you want some good news from South Africa, look at their case numbers and mortality over the last six weeks. Dropping like a rock.
Yes, the drop in cases and deaths in SA is encouraging. No one seems entirely sure why. Herd immunity in townships has been posited. Tho I also note the SA health minister is warning of a third wave
There is no mystery about the falling case numbers in South Africa. They started a lockdown at the end of December, and surprise surprise, cases peaked around two weeks later.
You’re wrong, I believe. There is some mystery because the lockdown basically didn’t happen in the townships, because it is impossible to social distance/isolate or practice great hygiene in these densely populated, impoverished places. Yet still cases have crashed. Hence the herd immunity theory, tho it is just a theory, I admit
Similar things have happened in India. Which is even poorer, and more crowded. Cases have just fallen away (long before any vaccines arrived)
An interesting point well made, but.... India? Have you been to cities like Mumbai, Delhi, Calcutta?
I don’t see how you could possibly lockdown strictly in those enormous slums, and as for hygiene...
For comparison, America’s largest city in 1918 was nyc, with a population of 5m. Mumbai has a population of 18m
America’s 2nd largest city in 1918 was Chicago - 2.6m. New Delhi has a population of 16m
Yes, yes, but can they bat?
They can, but they use different bats.
More on topic, what's the governance structure of the Crown Office, is there any UK institution that can manage the problems without nuclear options such as the suspension of Holyrood?
Crown Office is under the control of the Lord Advocate. Before Holyrood this was basically a UK appointment and the Crown Office had a huge degree of independence arguably too much in that it was not accountable to anyone. Post devolution the Lord Advocate became a member of the Scottish government akin to the Attorney General in rUK. This has, to put it politely, proved suboptimal. In England, AIUI, prosecutions are a matter for the DPP who is not a government minister. This is clearly a good thing. The separation of powers is very important.
For years after devolution Crown Office clung to its independence but we are now seeing that crumble and what looks painfully like politically motivated prosecutions. I am not saying that Salmond was such but the way that the "evidence" was, err, collected caused considerable concern before the trial and during it. The current prosecutions for alleged breaches of the Contempt of Court Act directed at journalists seem ill advised too.
For decades most of the Advocates Depute who prosecuted crime in Scotland were senior silks looking to tick a public service box before going onto the bench. The downside was that these silks often had limited knowledge of criminal law but they were smart and absolutely independent, by no means dependent on their salaries which in most cases were a pittance to what they had earned before. The Crown Office is now more "professional" in that it has ADs who serve there for long periods of time and who don't have that independence. I am not completely convinced that the trade off has proven advantageous.
Nicely phrased.
BTW, just in case it has escaped noticed, Salmond not turning up to inquiry tomorrow.
What kind of inquiry can it be when the principal witness can simply opt out?
Well, they could force him to come but since this is essentially his complaint if he chooses not to come voluntarily it may prove a handy excuse for shutting things down. These things happen in banana republics apparently. Scotland is of course not such because the sun hardly ever shines.
There has been some talk of him holding a press conference instead.
Although I wonder if he's concerned about up-ending the SNP's chances in May, and plans to detonate afterwards?
I guess time will tell. Difficult to read the thoughts of someone like Eck.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Shit. The truly alarming thing there is what I feared most: past infection with ‘normal’ Covid provides no immunity against SA Covid. This bug is Satanic
If the Safferbug runs riot in the UK this spring we will be back to square one. They won’t be able to tweak any of the vaccines in time. People will catch it again who’ve already had it. People vaxxed with AZ will also get it. Hopefully they will only get mild/moderate cases, but we don’t know that yet, for sure.
I don’t want to come over all Black Rook but this is ominous. To me it suggests lockdown until Autumn. And yet I just don’t think the economy can hack that, or the nation’s mental health. So what gives?
It’s a setback, but you are probably going too far.
The sample size in the new study was small. Of 1749 participants, 42 got sick, of whom 19 had the vaccine and 23 had a placebo, producing an efficacy figure of just 22 per cent.
However, no one became severely ill or died.
That is partly because participants were young – average age 31 – but also because while the vaccine doesn’t appear to prompt a significant immune response in the form of antibodies specific to 501Y.V2, it does still boost a broader immune response in the form of T cells. That also appears to be true of reinfection.
So AstraZeneca believes its vaccine still offers protection against serious illness and death from the variant. The same, with respect to T-Cells, will likely be true of reinfection.
In any case, South Africa has shipments of the Pfizer, Novavax and Johnson & Johnson vaccines on order, and all appear to provide protection against the variant, including among over 65s.o.
Finally, if you want some good news from South Africa, look at their case numbers and mortality over the last six weeks. Dropping like a rock.
Yes, the drop in cases and deaths in SA is encouraging. No one seems entirely sure why. Herd immunity in townships has been posited. Tho I also note the SA health minister is warning of a third wave
There is no mystery about the falling case numbers in South Africa. They started a lockdown at the end of December, and surprise surprise, cases peaked around two weeks later.
You’re wrong, I believe. There is some mystery because the lockdown basically didn’t happen in the townships, because it is impossible to social distance/isolate or practice great hygiene in these densely populated, impoverished places. Yet still cases have crashed. Hence the herd immunity theory, tho it is just a theory, I admit
Similar things have happened in India. Which is even poorer, and more crowded. Cases have just fallen away (long before any vaccines arrived)
An interesting point well made, but.... India? Have you been to cities like Mumbai, Delhi, Calcutta?
I don’t see how you could possibly lockdown strictly in those enormous slums, and as for hygiene...
For comparison, America’s largest city in 1918 was nyc, with a population of 5m. Mumbai has a population of 18m
America’s 2nd largest city in 1918 was Chicago - 2.6m. New Delhi has a population of 16m
Yes, yes, but can they bat?
They can, but they use different bats.
More on topic, what's the governance structure of the Crown Office, is there any UK institution that can manage the problems without nuclear options such as the suspension of Holyrood?
Crown Office is under the control of the Lord Advocate. Before Holyrood this was basically a UK appointment and the Crown Office had a huge degree of independence arguably too much in that it was not accountable to anyone. Post devolution the Lord Advocate became a member of the Scottish government akin to the Attorney General in rUK. This has, to put it politely, proved suboptimal. In England, AIUI, prosecutions are a matter for the DPP who is not a government minister. This is clearly a good thing. The separation of powers is very important.
For years after devolution Crown Office clung to its independence but we are now seeing that crumble and what looks painfully like politically motivated prosecutions. I am not saying that Salmond was such but the way that the "evidence" was, err, collected caused considerable concern before the trial and during it. The current prosecutions for alleged breaches of the Contempt of Court Act directed at journalists seem ill advised too.
For decades most of the Advocates Depute who prosecuted crime in Scotland were senior silks looking to tick a public service box before going onto the bench. The downside was that these silks often had limited knowledge of criminal law but they were smart and absolutely independent, by no means dependent on their salaries which in most cases were a pittance to what they had earned before. The Crown Office is now more "professional" in that it has ADs who serve there for long periods of time and who don't have that independence. I am not completely convinced that the trade off has proven advantageous.
Nicely phrased.
BTW, just in case it has escaped noticed, Salmond not turning up to inquiry tomorrow.
What kind of inquiry can it be when the principal witness can simply opt out?
He's holding a press conference, not reminiscent of any other politician's style in the slightest. Landscaping companies throughout the nation are hanging on their phones in anticipation nevertheless.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Shit. The truly alarming thing there is what I feared most: past infection with ‘normal’ Covid provides no immunity against SA Covid. This bug is Satanic
If the Safferbug runs riot in the UK this spring we will be back to square one. They won’t be able to tweak any of the vaccines in time. People will catch it again who’ve already had it. People vaxxed with AZ will also get it. Hopefully they will only get mild/moderate cases, but we don’t know that yet, for sure.
I don’t want to come over all Black Rook but this is ominous. To me it suggests lockdown until Autumn. And yet I just don’t think the economy can hack that, or the nation’s mental health. So what gives?
It’s a setback, but you are probably going too far.
The sample size in the new study was small. Of 1749 participants, 42 got sick, of whom 19 had the vaccine and 23 had a placebo, producing an efficacy figure of just 22 per cent.
However, no one became severely ill or died.
That is partly because participants were young – average age 31 – but also because while the vaccine doesn’t appear to prompt a significant immune response in the form of antibodies specific to 501Y.V2, it does still boost a broader immune response in the form of T cells. That also appears to be true of reinfection.
So AstraZeneca believes its vaccine still offers protection against serious illness and death from the variant. The same, with respect to T-Cells, will likely be true of reinfection.
In any case, South Africa has shipments of the Pfizer, Novavax and Johnson & Johnson vaccines on order, and all appear to provide protection against the variant, including among over 65s.o.
Finally, if you want some good news from South Africa, look at their case numbers and mortality over the last six weeks. Dropping like a rock.
Yes, the drop in cases and deaths in SA is encouraging. No one seems entirely sure why. Herd immunity in townships has been posited. Tho I also note the SA health minister is warning of a third wave
There is no mystery about the falling case numbers in South Africa. They started a lockdown at the end of December, and surprise surprise, cases peaked around two weeks later.
You’re wrong, I believe. There is some mystery because the lockdown basically didn’t happen in the townships, because it is impossible to social distance/isolate or practice great hygiene in these densely populated, impoverished places. Yet still cases have crashed. Hence the herd immunity theory, tho it is just a theory, I admit
Similar things have happened in India. Which is even poorer, and more crowded. Cases have just fallen away (long before any vaccines arrived)
An interesting point well made, but.... India? Have you been to cities like Mumbai, Delhi, Calcutta?
I don’t see how you could possibly lockdown strictly in those enormous slums, and as for hygiene...
For comparison, America’s largest city in 1918 was nyc, with a population of 5m. Mumbai has a population of 18m
America’s 2nd largest city in 1918 was Chicago - 2.6m. New Delhi has a population of 16m
Yes, yes, but can they bat?
They can, but they use different bats.
More on topic, what's the governance structure of the Crown Office, is there any UK institution that can manage the problems without nuclear options such as the suspension of Holyrood?
Crown Office is under the control of the Lord Advocate. Before Holyrood this was basically a UK appointment and the Crown Office had a huge degree of independence arguably too much in that it was not accountable to anyone. Post devolution the Lord Advocate became a member of the Scottish government akin to the Attorney General in rUK. This has, to put it politely, proved suboptimal. In England, AIUI, prosecutions are a matter for the DPP who is not a government minister. This is clearly a good thing. The separation of powers is very important.
For years after devolution Crown Office clung to its independence but we are now seeing that crumble and what looks painfully like politically motivated prosecutions. I am not saying that Salmond was such but the way that the "evidence" was, err, collected caused considerable concern before the trial and during it. The current prosecutions for alleged breaches of the Contempt of Court Act directed at journalists seem ill advised too.
For decades most of the Advocates Depute who prosecuted crime in Scotland were senior silks looking to tick a public service box before going onto the bench. The downside was that these silks often had limited knowledge of criminal law but they were smart and absolutely independent, by no means dependent on their salaries which in most cases were a pittance to what they had earned before. The Crown Office is now more "professional" in that it has ADs who serve there for long periods of time and who don't have that independence. I am not completely convinced that the trade off has proven advantageous.
Nicely phrased.
BTW, just in case it has escaped noticed, Salmond not turning up to inquiry tomorrow.
What kind of inquiry can it be when the principal witness can simply opt out?
Well, they could force him to come but since this is essentially his complaint if he chooses not to come voluntarily it may prove a handy excuse for shutting things down. These things happen in banana republics apparently. Scotland is of course not such because the sun hardly ever shines.
Offending people/being offended on Twatter & Farcebook is an occupational activity for some members of the legal challenged community*.
If you ask the police, apparently a vast amount of their time is spent on complaints about such matters.
When you add to this the phenomenon of "Edgelord" ism - internet speak for trying to get attention by saying something so offensive that everyone reviles you for say it - well, the script writes itself.
If you're going to tweet your letter, proof read it first.
8th of December 202? The SNP really have been in power too long.
I don't see why the SNP should be responsible for Murdo Fraser's letter writing skills.
Perhaps a smiley face would have made the intended tone of the post clearer? I think most would agree that if the SNP ever did get to 1800 years in power it might be time for a change.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Presumably there's guidance on what might constitute grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Presumably there's guidance on what might constitute grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
That is very poor (the law I mean not your posting) I can see the point of the menacing bit but the rest is just wrong.
mRNA was of course not the only major advancement in 2020 in improving our understanding of the world and ability to positively manipulate it.
Don’t forget Alphafold.
Then there’s GPT 3.
Further advancement in robotics by Boston Dynamics.
The first use of CRISPR to edit a gene in the body (blindness).
Tesla overtaking the combined market cap of the western oil majors, peak oil demand called by many and peak daily supply announced by Shell.
Tentative discovery of Phosphine on Venus, meaning...?
First high altitude test of Starship, laying the foundation for a new age of exploration.
The successful beta launch of the Starlink service, with ubiquitous internet now around the corner.
Large hadron collider finding exotic new four quark particle.
Fresh archeological evidence putting a nail in the coffin of the Clovis-First consensus model of human colonisation of the americas, pushing back the date by many millennia and the likely means of travel changing from land bridge to boat.
Meanwhile there was all the excitement with the NY Times expose on “UAPs”, Cmdr David Fravor’s tours of the media studios after the formal declassification of the USS Nimitz and USS Roosevelt videos, and the new congressional process to open the book on government materials concerning “unidentified aerial phenomena”.
It would be an interesting sweepstake to see which of all these events changes the advancement of human civilisation the most by 2100. Sometimes it pays to look through life’s telescope the wrong way and not get too bogged down in the here and now.
For me it is fairly clear that the biological revolution, of which mRNA technology is but a part, is going to be the biggest technological revolution we have seen to date. It will impact everything - not just health, food production and the environment, but energy, mineral extraction, chemical production, computing, material sciences, art ... And all of this will impact our ability to open up space's new vistas.
If you're going to tweet your letter, proof read it first.
8th of December 202? The SNP really have been in power too long.
I don't see why the SNP should be responsible for Murdo Fraser's letter writing skills.
Perhaps a smiley face would have made the intended tone of the post clearer? I think most would agree that if the SNP ever did get to 1800 years in power it might be time for a change.
The Tories seem to be trying for that in London at present. Certainly with proroguing Parliament.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
It only took a riot, but Trump has finally learned a lesson about the best defence for his own actions - saying nothing himself (that Georgia call springs to mind)
Lawyers for Donald Trump have responded to his impeachment charges, saying supporters of the former US president stormed Congress in Washington DC on 6 January of their own accord...
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
If you're going to tweet your letter, proof read it first.
8th of December 202? The SNP really have been in power too long.
I don't see why the SNP should be responsible for Murdo Fraser's letter writing skills.
Perhaps a smiley face would have made the intended tone of the post clearer? I think most would agree that if the SNP ever did get to 1800 years in power it might be time for a change.
The Tories seem to be trying for that in London at present. Certainly with proroguing Parliament.
I really don't follow. Is there some sort of code where a political was being made, rather than poking fun at Fraser for not drafting his letters properly?
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Presumably there's guidance on what might constitute grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing.
unfortunately if you big up (perhaps too much) an individual -even a nice and brave one like the Captain and go a bit OTT on his death then you guarantee some idiots and trolls countering it in an unpleasant way.Maybe a lesson to learn on the establishment side as well on this otherwise this sort of thing will always lead then to this sort of unseemly criminal case . FWIW my own view on the Captain was that he was being called a hero for the wrong thing (yes his walk around his garden was public spirited and impressive ) but his real legacy is one of a handful of WW2 pilots still around (or was until he died the other week). If that was what the nation went OTT about on his death rather than covid-19/NHS fundraising then there might have been less trolls
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
That is very poor (the law I mean not your posting) I can see the point of the menacing bit but the rest is just wrong.
That was the direction of travel in 2003. Now we are seeing the backlash. In a few years we will see the backlash against the backlash.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
This may well be the view of the UK government, albeit with major implications of bad faith. It is absolutely not the view of the Irish government. Neither the UK nor the rest of the EU is anything like as invested in the Northern Ireland protocol as Ireland, as has been demonstrated recently by both parties. Someone who seemed well connected with the Irish government did a thread on this. The real thing that can't acknowledged by the Irish government is that they will put in a hard land border before they will detach themselves by one iota from the Single Market. The Northern Ireland Protocol exists so they don't have to make that choice. The Irish are very determined on this and they have plenty of diplomatic capital both in the EU and the US.
I struggle to see a way to square the circle. So you voted for Brexit because you wanted to take control and to get an alien and overbearing institution out of your lives. The EU mandated internal border screams loss of control and imposition by overbearing foreign institutions more than anything else possibly could. On the other hand if you want the United Kingdom to survive in its current form, you are stuck with making the Northern Ireland Protocol sort of work.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Is that not deflection from the Dover Port confirmation activity is at 90%
And yes I am aware of that report and that does need resolving and the businesses compensated in the meantime
And I've suggested to you how to reconcile the two. Dover Port sees the lorries, doesn't care if they're empty or not.
But seriously- step away from the Guido. PB has already lost someone to the alt-right web. Using Guido as an information source really really really isn't a good idea.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Presumably there's guidance on what might constitute grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing.
unfortunately if you big up (perhaps too much) an individual -even a nice and brave one like the Captain and go a bit OTT on his death then you guarantee some idiots and trolls countering it in an unpleasant way.Maybe a lesson to learn on the establishment side as well on this otherwise this sort of thing will always lead then to this sort of unseemly criminal case . FWIW my own view on the Captain was that he was being called a hero for the wrong thing (yes his walk around his garden was public spirited and impressive ) but his real legacy is one of a handful of WW2 pilots still around (or was until he died the other week). If that was what the nation went OTT about on his death rather than covid-19/NHS fundraising then there might have been less trolls
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Presumably there's guidance on what might constitute grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing.
unfortunately if you big up (perhaps too much) an individual -even a nice and brave one like the Captain and go a bit OTT on his death then you guarantee some idiots and trolls countering it in an unpleasant way.Maybe a lesson to learn on the establishment side as well on this otherwise this sort of thing will always lead then to this sort of unseemly criminal case . FWIW my own view on the Captain was that he was being called a hero for the wrong thing (yes his walk around his garden was public spirited and impressive ) but his real legacy is one of a handful of WW2 pilots still around (or was until he died the other week). If that was what the nation went OTT about on his death rather than covid-19/NHS fundraising then there might have been less trolls
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Presumably there's guidance on what might constitute grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing.
unfortunately if you big up (perhaps too much) an individual -even a nice and brave one like the Captain and go a bit OTT on his death then you guarantee some idiots and trolls countering it in an unpleasant way.Maybe a lesson to learn on the establishment side as well on this otherwise this sort of thing will always lead then to this sort of unseemly criminal case . FWIW my own view on the Captain was that he was being called a hero for the wrong thing (yes his walk around his garden was public spirited and impressive ) but his real legacy is one of a handful of WW2 pilots still around (or was until he died the other week). If that was what the nation went OTT about on his death rather than covid-19/NHS fundraising then there might have been less trolls
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
That is very poor (the law I mean not your posting) I can see the point of the menacing bit but the rest is just wrong.
That was the direction of travel in 2003. Now we are seeing the backlash. In a few years we will see the backlash against the backlash.
As Orwell put it: “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” To me, that’s an important principle and includes the right to offend, cause anxiety, and generally be a cock; so long as you don’t libel or slander (though as noted above, you can’t libel the dead).
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Is that not deflection from the Dover Port confirmation activity is at 90%
And yes I am aware of that report and that does need resolving and the businesses compensated in the meantime
And I've suggested to you how to reconcile the two. Dover Port sees the lorries, doesn't care if they're empty or not.
But seriously- step away from the Guido. PB has already lost someone to the alt-right web. Using Guido as an information source really really really isn't a good idea.
If the information he provides is relevant than he a source just as the guardian or anyone else is
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
That's because you're an innocent man not versed in filth.
The pull out is an interchangeable term for the withdrawal method.
If I hear another pissing question about foreign holidays at these press conferences I may lose it a la Michael Douglas in Falling Down.
It does seem a waste of time to ask for details on pissing while on foreign holidays. I imagine it is much like pissing while at home.
I'll let you into a little secret.
My first trip to Australia, the first thing I did was flush the toilet to see the toilet to see if it really did flush the other way.
What happens directly on the Equator? Does the water just go straight down OR does it explode upward, turning an ordinary toilet bowl into a super-bidet?
Whichever, good to know in advance BEFORE you pull the chain or whatever.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
IANAE etc, but given that we run a £70bn a year trade deficit in goods with the EU it does seem highly likely to me that a fair percentage of the lorries would have been going back empty even before Brexit. We simply don't sell nearly as much stuff as we buy.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Given the location of the arrest, it may well be the one that was posted on here a few days ago - Malc said it was unionist black ops.
The guy was a fecking idiot but I am really unhappy with the idea that what he said was a criminal offence. Is this just under Scottish law or is it the case UK wide?
Not my areas but section 127 of the Communications Act 2003 has UK wide application -
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false, (b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Presumably there's guidance on what might constitute grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing.
unfortunately if you big up (perhaps too much) an individual -even a nice and brave one like the Captain and go a bit OTT on his death then you guarantee some idiots and trolls countering it in an unpleasant way.Maybe a lesson to learn on the establishment side as well on this otherwise this sort of thing will always lead then to this sort of unseemly criminal case . FWIW my own view on the Captain was that he was being called a hero for the wrong thing (yes his walk around his garden was public spirited and impressive ) but his real legacy is one of a handful of WW2 pilots still around (or was until he died the other week). If that was what the nation went OTT about on his death rather than covid-19/NHS fundraising then there might have been less trolls
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
That's because you're an innocent man not versed in filth.
The pull out is an interchangeable term for the withdrawal method.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
Guido was reporting on the Dover Port Authority confirmation traffic was at 90% unlike the report in the observer
This is factual reporting unless the Dover Port Authority is making dishonest statements
Both are probably factual. The RHA carried out a survey of its members, who reported a 68% drop in exported loads in January. Dover Port counted lorry movements in and out, presumably including empty ones. We don't know any detail for either of the two figures.
Will there be a permanent drop in exports to the EU? Almost certainly yes and by a large amount, but not close to 68%, which would be unthinkably catastrophic.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Is that not deflection from the Dover Port confirmation activity is at 90%
And yes I am aware of that report and that does need resolving and the businesses compensated in the meantime
And I've suggested to you how to reconcile the two. Dover Port sees the lorries, doesn't care if they're empty or not.
But seriously- step away from the Guido. PB has already lost someone to the alt-right web. Using Guido as an information source really really really isn't a good idea.
If the information he provides is relevant than he a source just as the guardian or anyone else is
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
IANAE etc, but given that we run a £70bn a year trade deficit in goods with the EU it does seem highly likely to me that a fair percentage of the lorries would have been going back empty even before Brexit. We simply don't sell nearly as much stuff as we buy.
Technical/pedant point, but surely 'ran' - imports too have gone down somewhat.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Sorry I just cannot believe you would reject the report by Dover Port Authority and call it alt-right filth
What is wrong with you
Don’t talk shite. I’m talking about Guido.
It’s worse than citing the Telegraph.
At least you can’t catch herpes from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard. At least, I don’t think so.
You really are unbelievable and very unpleasant
You just do not like Dover Port Authority saying it is now seeing 90% of normal traffic
Does your wife know you’re on Guido?
Really - you want to shoot the messenger
I do hope you are not going down the Q-hole, Big G. You're insufferable enough on a steady diet of Sky News.
I suggested I wanted hard data on the impact of Brexit red-tape. You cited a report from Guido. Others noted the report itself (whether cited by Guido or others) was non-conclusive.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
IANAE etc, but given that we run a £70bn a year trade deficit in goods with the EU it does seem highly likely to me that a fair percentage of the lorries would have been going back empty even before Brexit. We simply don't sell nearly as much stuff as we buy.
True, but the article I linked to claimed that the empty rate has increased fourfold. So from about 15% to 60%.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
Guido was reporting on the Dover Port Authority confirmation traffic was at 90% unlike the report in the observer
This is factual reporting unless the Dover Port Authority is making dishonest statements
Both are probably factual. The RHA carried out a survey of its members, who reported a 68% drop in exported loads. Dover Port counted lorry movements in and out, presumably including empty ones. We don't know any detail for either of the two figures.
Will there be a permanent drop in exports to the EU? Almost certainly yes and by a large amount, but not close to 68%, which would be unthinkably catastrophic.
Nor do we apparently have a clear idea of what that number was before Brexit. At least the RHA don't appear to be willing to release it. Given the massive trade imbalance between the UK and the rest of the EU pre Brexit I can only assume it was the case. Indeed I know it was because, as I mentioned last week, I have a friend in the haulage industry who has made a whole career out of going round the country picking up empty containers to take back to Felixstowe because of the trade imbalance.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
That's because you're an innocent man not versed in filth.
The pull out is an interchangeable term for the withdrawal method.
Ah, right. The things you learn on PB.
Have you not heard the expression "to get off at Haymarket"?
I'm not sure if it comes from Glaswegians, or Edinburgers relieved to be coming home from the Wild West over the Central Scottish Desert.
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
That's because you're an innocent man not versed in filth.
The pull out is an interchangeable term for the withdrawal method.
Ah, right. The things you learn on PB.
I learned this sort of thing in sex education classes.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
Guido was reporting on the Dover Port Authority confirmation traffic was at 90% unlike the report in the observer
This is factual reporting unless the Dover Port Authority is making dishonest statements
Both are probably factual. The RHA carried out a survey of its members, who reported a 68% drop in exported loads in January. Dover Port counted lorry movements in and out, presumably including empty ones. We don't know any detail for either of the two figures.
Will there be a permanent drop in exports to the EU? Almost certainly yes and by a large amount, but not close to 68%, which would be unthinkably catastrophic.
Thank you for a sensible response
I am very sensitive today as my eldest son, who lives in Canada and is in a mental health crisis, is having the first of 10 electroconvulsive therapies later today and I just find some posts are unnecessary personal
Of course in normal times his mother and I would be at his bedside, but due to covid we cannot go and hold his hand and be with him, leaving his wife to take all the strain on her own
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
IANAE etc, but given that we run a £70bn a year trade deficit in goods with the EU it does seem highly likely to me that a fair percentage of the lorries would have been going back empty even before Brexit. We simply don't sell nearly as much stuff as we buy.
Technical/pedant point, but surely 'ran' - imports too have gone down somewhat.
True and almost certainly by more than exports giving a net gain to the UK economy. The trade figures will be interesting once we get past the effect of Covid which is swamping everything right now.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Is that not deflection from the Dover Port confirmation activity is at 90%
And yes I am aware of that report and that does need resolving and the businesses compensated in the meantime
And I've suggested to you how to reconcile the two. Dover Port sees the lorries, doesn't care if they're empty or not.
But seriously- step away from the Guido. PB has already lost someone to the alt-right web. Using Guido as an information source really really really isn't a good idea.
If the information he provides is relevant than he a source just as the guardian or anyone else is
Tory propaganda
Tory factional propaganda rather than merely perhaps (that is, he'll break ranks if he wrong party faction is in ascendant), though if a story is embarrassing he may include it.
Partisan outlets can contain decent information at times, you just cannot trust their own summaries or conclusions, and need to check anything they claim to see if it stands up. The more stunning a claim, the more it needs to be double checked.
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Is that not deflection from the Dover Port confirmation activity is at 90%
And yes I am aware of that report and that does need resolving and the businesses compensated in the meantime
And I've suggested to you how to reconcile the two. Dover Port sees the lorries, doesn't care if they're empty or not.
But seriously- step away from the Guido. PB has already lost someone to the alt-right web. Using Guido as an information source really really really isn't a good idea.
If the information he provides is relevant than he a source just as the guardian or anyone else is
Tory propaganda
I never knew the Guardian spread Tory propaganda! I shall have to cancel my subscription. (I genuinely do have one but won't be cancelling it, that bit was a fib)
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
That's because you're an innocent man not versed in filth.
The pull out is an interchangeable term for the withdrawal method.
Ah, right. The things you learn on PB.
Have you not heard the expression "to get off at Haymarket"?
I'm not sure if it comes from Glaswegians, or Edinburgers relieved to be coming home from the Wild West over the Central Scottish Desert.
The Portsmouth equivalent is "Getting off at Fratton." Look at the map.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
Is that not deflection from the Dover Port confirmation activity is at 90%
And yes I am aware of that report and that does need resolving and the businesses compensated in the meantime
And I've suggested to you how to reconcile the two. Dover Port sees the lorries, doesn't care if they're empty or not.
But seriously- step away from the Guido. PB has already lost someone to the alt-right web. Using Guido as an information source really really really isn't a good idea.
If the information he provides is relevant than he a source just as the guardian or anyone else is
Tory propaganda
Not necessarily. When I first heard the piece in the observer i correctly assumed it was the road haulage industry playing the politics.
I didn't understand the tone of the letter either. It was very odd.
I think you surmised it was written in order to justify an expected suspension of Article 16 by HMG.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
I think you may be right.
Moreover, the EU is a fantastic whipping boy to maintain native Brexit enthusiasm for a while yet.
It would be interesting to see concrete data on the economic hit of Brexit red-tape. So far much of it is still in the realm of anecdote.
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
Guido was reporting on the Dover Port Authority confirmation traffic was at 90% unlike the report in the observer
This is factual reporting unless the Dover Port Authority is making dishonest statements
Both are probably factual. The RHA carried out a survey of its members, who reported a 68% drop in exported loads in January. Dover Port counted lorry movements in and out, presumably including empty ones. We don't know any detail for either of the two figures.
Will there be a permanent drop in exports to the EU? Almost certainly yes and by a large amount, but not close to 68%, which would be unthinkably catastrophic.
Thank you for a sensible response
I am very sensitive today as my eldest son, who lives in Canada and is in a mental health crisis, is having the first of 10 electroconvulsive therapies later today and I just find some posts are unnecessary personal
Big G, I was sorry to hear your news the other day - sorrier than you might think. I am wishing and hoping for his recovery, and some peace in your life.
But please don't be citing Guido. I don't bother even looking at anything he posts - same as I wouldn't look at anything on the Canary.
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
That's because you're an innocent man not versed in filth.
The pull out is an interchangeable term for the withdrawal method.
Ah, right. The things you learn on PB.
I learned this sort of thing in sex education classes.
I went to a class that was supposed to cover that sort of thing once, PSE or physical and social education I think it was called. We spent the first 40 minutes being taught how to look up a name in a telephone book. I refused to go back and arranged with the classics department that I would sit in the back of their class instead. Curiously, everyone went along with this but it probably explains some gaps in my education.
My view FWIW is that the Brexit deal was known in advance by the UK government to be unworkable with regard to the island of Ireland. And this would be true of any deal within the various parties' red lines.
The actual intention, and the only one available to a UK Brexit government was to agree to something which contravened a UK red line, be terminologically inexactitudinous about its meaning and consequence....and wait.
That's exactly what they have done.
They are now in a position where RoI and the UK (and peace) have a common interest in something which breaches the EUs red lines.
For the island of Ireland to work when the UK has a hardish Brexit someone's red lines are going to go.
it's what Gove calls a political solution.
The outstanding Tony Connelly is very much on the ball. WHat I haven't noticed from him is how to square the circle.
The common interest of RoI and UK (which will never be acknowledged of course) against the interests of the EU, its other members and (to some extent) NI unionists will be interesting to watch as it plays out.
Can the UK detach RoI (without admitting anything) from the solidarity of the EU?
The game's afoot.
This may well be the view of the UK government, albeit with major implications of bad faith. It is absolutely not the view of the Irish government. Neither the UK nor the rest of the EU is anything like as invested in the Northern Ireland protocol as Ireland, as has been demonstrated recently by both parties. Someone who seemed well connected with the Irish government did a thread on this. The real thing that can't acknowledged by the Irish government is that they will put in a hard land border before they will detach themselves by one iota from the Single Market. The Northern Ireland Protocol exists so they don't have to make that choice. The Irish are very determined on this and they have plenty of diplomatic capital both in the EU and the US.
I struggle to see a way to square the circle. So you voted for Brexit because you wanted to take control and to get an alien and overbearing institution out of your lives. The EU mandated internal border screams loss of control and imposition by overbearing foreign institutions more than anything else possibly could. On the other hand if you want the United Kingdom to survive in its current form, you are stuck with making the Northern Ireland Protocol sort of work.
I think that's a lot of bollocks.
Charles put it brilliantly: the GFA was designed in a climate where both the UK and Irish Republic were full EU members.
Now one is not it needs to be redesigned. It can't be totally lopsided to EU single market dogma or it will risk the Troubles restarting.
Ireland is going to have to show a bit of leg too, with the tacit permission of the EU, and it already does with the CTA and Anglo-Irish agreement.
Excellent and uplifting thread header, Robert; thank you.
Also has possibly the best pb analogy ever too!
Nope, yesterday saw the best ever PB analogy.
Much like getting your girlfriend pregnant on a pull out sofa there’s a deep sense of irony that the Conservative & Unionist Party, aided and abetted by the DUP, have via Brexit done more to weaken Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom than the IRA.
I am just naïve Scots lawyer but I really didn't understand this anology.
That's because you're an innocent man not versed in filth.
The pull out is an interchangeable term for the withdrawal method.
Ah, right. The things you learn on PB.
I learned this sort of thing in sex education classes.
I went to a class that was supposed to cover that sort of thing once, PSE or physical and social education I think it was called. We spent the first 40 minutes being taught how to look up a name in a telephone book. I refused to go back and arranged with the classics department that I would sit in the back of their class instead. Curiously, everyone went along with this but it probably explains some gaps in my education.
Sex education was great for me, purely because the teacher who had teach us this was the mother of one of my fellow students.
Comments
A man has been charged in Lanarkshire in connection with an offensive social media tweet about Sir Captain Tom Moore.
Sir Tom died in Bedford Hospital last Tuesday, aged 100, after testing positive for Covid-19.
He had captured the nation's hearts with his fundraising efforts during the first coronavirus lockdown, raising more than £30m for NHS charities.
The 35-year-old man is due to appear in court later this week.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-55986646
Both the adenovirus vector vaccines (AZN, J&J) and the mRNA vaccines are hijacking some of our cells to produce copies of the spike protein bit of the Covid virus. From the point of view of our immune system, they are making very much the same thing.
The difference is perhaps in how effectively they do the hijacking.
And also in the speed of manufacturing (though the viral vector vaccines are for now easier to produce in very large quantities).
Although I wonder if he's concerned about up-ending the SNP's chances in May, and plans to detonate afterwards?
I guess time will tell. Difficult to read the thoughts of someone like Eck.
He has various bees in bonnet however. Not like PBers.
If you ask the police, apparently a vast amount of their time is spent on complaints about such matters.
When you add to this the phenomenon of "Edgelord" ism - internet speak for trying to get attention by saying something so offensive that everyone reviles you for say it - well, the script writes itself.
*Habitual customers of the justice system.
It’s only one step removed from MalcolmG
127 Improper use of public electronic communications network
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or
(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.
(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—
(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false,
(b)causes such a message to be sent; or
(c)persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.
Oh and I quite like the MalcolmG comparison. Thanks.
'Overtly sexual' cow blocked as Facebook ad
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-55981602
What is wrong with you
Actually, Guido's an interesting case- gone from equal-opportunities bovver boy to Johnsonian lickspittle.
Secondly- there's reasonable anecdote of lorries going from UK to Europe empty, because that's how businesses have adapted to the new rules.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/six-out-of-10-lorries-crossing-the-channel-empty-as-brexit-and-covid-bite/ar-BB1dg8V8?c=16080256636713851486&mkt=en-gb
So similar level of traffic, perhaps, but much less productive.
And remember- at the moment, EU to UK is still basically running on an honesty box system. For a few more months.
Still- I'm sure the government know what they're doing.
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/owner-first-lobster-tank-business-europes-largest-shellfish-port-forced-close-due-brexit-restraints-3127061
I’m talking about Guido.
It’s worse than citing the Telegraph.
At least you can’t catch herpes from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard. At least, I don’t think so.
Lawyers for Donald Trump have responded to his impeachment charges, saying supporters of the former US president stormed Congress in Washington DC on 6 January of their own accord...
Mr Trump says he will not testify.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55987560
And yes I am aware of that report and that does need resolving and the businesses compensated in the meantime
Priceless.
You must be a gas on the “Alliance for Anti-Woke Archaeologists” circuit.
I struggle to see a way to square the circle. So you voted for Brexit because you wanted to take control and to get an alien and overbearing institution out of your lives. The EU mandated internal border screams loss of control and imposition by overbearing foreign institutions more than anything else possibly could. On the other hand if you want the United Kingdom to survive in its current form, you are stuck with making the Northern Ireland Protocol sort of work.
This is factual reporting unless the Dover Port Authority is making dishonest statements
and if 10m medical gowns should accidently fail
There'll be 10m medical gowns going to the tip.
6m facemasks sitting on the shelf
and if 6m facemasks should accidently fail
There'll be 6m facemasks going to the tip
etc etc
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/uk-eu-freight-trade-back-to-90percent-of-normal-port-of-dover-says/ar-BB1duZ4H
But seriously- step away from the Guido. PB has already lost someone to the alt-right web. Using Guido as an information source really really really isn't a good idea.
You just do not like Dover Port Authority saying it is now seeing 90% of normal traffic
DPA is of course going to count lorries. And if they are empty even better. It still gets paid, and it doesn't have the customs hassles.
The pull out is an interchangeable term for the withdrawal method.
Whichever, good to know in advance BEFORE you pull the chain or whatever.
Will there be a permanent drop in exports to the EU? Almost certainly yes and by a large amount, but not close to 68%, which would be unthinkably catastrophic.
I suggested I wanted hard data on the impact of Brexit red-tape.
You cited a report from Guido.
Others noted the report itself (whether cited by Guido or others) was non-conclusive.
So I am still waiting for concrete data.
I'm not sure if it comes from Glaswegians, or Edinburgers relieved to be coming home from the Wild West over the Central Scottish Desert.
What do they teach in Scotland?
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/withdrawal-pull-out-method
I am very sensitive today as my eldest son, who lives in Canada and is in a mental health crisis, is having the first of 10 electroconvulsive therapies later today and I just find some posts are unnecessary personal
Of course in normal times his mother and I would be at his bedside, but due to covid we cannot go and hold his hand and be with him, leaving his wife to take all the strain on her own
Partisan outlets can contain decent information at times, you just cannot trust their own summaries or conclusions, and need to check anything they claim to see if it stands up. The more stunning a claim, the more it needs to be double checked.
Look at the map.
I am wishing and hoping for his recovery, and some peace in your life.
But please don't be citing Guido.
I don't bother even looking at anything he posts - same as I wouldn't look at anything on the Canary.
They wouldn’t commit to extermination strategy
They wouldn’t commit to border controls and say don’t book abroad holidays
They are in danger of throwing away all the good work they have done with vaccines.
I didn't watch the briefing and didn't see commentary to this effect on PB...
Charles put it brilliantly: the GFA was designed in a climate where both the UK and Irish Republic were full EU members.
Now one is not it needs to be redesigned. It can't be totally lopsided to EU single market dogma or it will risk the Troubles restarting.
Ireland is going to have to show a bit of leg too, with the tacit permission of the EU, and it already does with the CTA and Anglo-Irish agreement.
Poor guy is still in therapy.
This is a mutation of cockney Covid once it came up M4 and hit west.
Can Janets Jungle Juice suppress it?
Having a bubble me babe. Up the elephant round the black castle. Yeah but no but having a Turkish.