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Lest we forget – the sheer scale of the UK COVID toll – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Gaussian said:

    What's the vaccine scores on the doors today?

    Wales 28k, Scotland 45k, England not available yet (unless somebody knows a quicker source than https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-vaccinations)
    That's a very good Scottish figure.

    Bodes well.
    Confirmation in the statement earlier that we now definitely have sufficient doses to hit the target (admittedly only 10 days away so shouldn't have been much doubt) - hopefully the current gentle trend upwards continues and we can be largely done with over 50s by Mid March.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003

    The results of this study seem to match the famous curve in the graph in the original Pfizer paper.
    It'll be 21 Days on Saturday since I had my first (Pfizer) vaccination.

    I'd go down the pub, but it's still shut!
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,480
    edited February 2021

    Pagan2 said:



    To be clear there is nothing wrong with arguing against this or any other header. Absolutely not, I dont agree with the tone of it myself, although it does make some good points and gets us to reflect.

    The issue is the hysterical response, threats to leave the site and criticising the author rather than the merits or not of the argument.

    I agree that posting a threat to leave the site is just dumb.

    If you want to leave the site, you can just leave it ... quietly. You won't be missed. No need to post, just go.

    None of us would be missed, if we were to stop posting.

    OTH, criticising Meeks is perfectly fine. He doles it out aplenty, so he can take it.

    The thread header writers are not red squirrels. They are not an endangered species needing protection.
    I slightly disagree, there are some on here whose opinions I value very much indeed. Its good to have different view points made, and often made very well indeed. So much better than echo chambers of social media. I would miss some of you...
    Who has threatened to leave the site? Just wondering.
    Don't think it was a regular poster
    Just someody who said he had been here 15 years. Mostly lurking I guess. But then, I wonder how more lurkers we lose to the relentless Boris bashing?
    Probably the same number we lost when Mike was accused of being anti Gordon Brown, or I was accused of being anti Ed Miliband, or those golden times in late 2016/17 I was accused of being anti Theresa May when I said she was a pound shop Gordon Brown in spite of polling really highly.

    2020 was PB's biggest year ever, but YoY, PB seems to go up and up in terms of site traffic.
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,844
    Has anyone considered telling him that there is this thing called google translate that will turn any website into english pretty well?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    The EU information minister seems to think he is in a war with the UK.
    ttps://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1357332883594219523
    ttps://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1357332881857597446

    Wouldn't he be better off asking his friends in Brussels when they're going to order more vaccines for their population, before a vaccinated UK closes the border and has a summer-long party?
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,000
    MattW said:

    Just for @Anabobazina, a fascinating story:

    Dave the Rave is trying to work out how to stop English being the lingua franca:

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1357332868704337922

    as (presumably) is Napoleon:

    https://twitter.com/wblau/status/1324287909021786113

    What's he got to do with me?

    Keating is a laughing stock.

    I have no idea why anyone pays any attention to him.
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Leon said:

    Very eloquent, as ever. And much of it is inarguable, the only thing in HGM's defence is that Britain WAS uniquely vulnerable, ticking almost every single box for Particularly Nasty Covid - a world capital with myriad international connections, unusually high population density, high proportion of BAME population, elevated levels of obesity, no tradition of mask wearing, rather elderly citizens, an individualistic culture resistant to nannying, mobile populace WITHIN the country, cool weather meaning life goes on indoors in non-ventilated spaces....

    Does any other country tick ALL those boxes? Maybe Belgium? Which says something.

    Given all that, I reckon we'd have been in the top five for death tolls - or thereabouts - whatever the government did. But yes, they also made grave mistakes, from the idiotic advice on masks, at the start, to the chaos of quarantine throughout. Possibly tens of thousands died who didn't need to.

    Will it matter, in the long run? No. Because Mr Meeks does not, perhaps, quite understand human psychology in this instance.

    People remember wars, but they forget plagues. Deliberately. This is because plagues are WORSE than wars, they have no heroic narrative, no memories of camaraderie, plagues are just horrible, grinding nightmares from which we yearn to escape, and never look back.

    So the government will likely get away with its chaotic errors. Everyone will want to forget.

    SeanT, ex of this parish, wrote on this theme early in the pandemic.


    https://unherd.com/2020/05/why-we-remember-wars-but-forget-plagues/

    Whatever happened to SeanT?

    My wife is a local government officer of many years and despises Boris, but she has been appalled by the opposition to the whole pandemic actions as it assumes people don't make mistakes. The ridiculous momentum video last week assuming somehow that perfect knowledge would have allowed to eradicate Covid, close the borders like New Zealand, fully staff the now not required nightingale hospitals whilst giving NHS a pay rise and paying everyone else to stay at home. It made about as much sense as a Knox or Tremayne novel
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,983
    edited February 2021

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    Did you clap last night at 6pm?
    I didn't.

    But then I'm a monster as I didn't clap for carers either.
    Why oh why do you hate this country?

    I was actually soaking in the bath (tmi, apols) with a Sea Arch & tonic (also tmi for this boozy crowd).
    Where we live, only the birds would hear us clapping.

    We had a Sainsbury's delivery that arrived at 5.45pm which we still sorting out.

    I never understood the public displays following the death of Princess Diana.

    I dread to think the reaction of this country when her Majesty moves on, it will make the three year mourning for Kim Il-sung look understated.
    The reaction to HMQ going will be several orders of magnitude different from what was experienced in 1997.

    Bar a few Republicans trying hard to ignore it, the whole country will stop for a couple of weeks. It will be the world's biggest news story of the year. My Mum is 74 now, she was five when the Queen ascended to the throne. The vast majority of the country don't know anything other than the Queen.
    I know this is different but...

    I was on holiday in the Lakes when the Queen Mother died (at some very advanced age). Arriving back to the farm we were staying at, the landlady stopped us in the hall and broke the news. She was very upset. None of us gave a fig (all mid twenties, three of the four from NZ), and we did not know how to react...

    I think for some when her maj 'retires' it will be huge (for Charles definitely - nods to Private Eye). For many others not so much. But the media will go mad.
    When Princess Di died we were up North house hunting and had to purchase a CD on the way home just to have something to listen to on the 6 hour drive back.

    The following Saturday we caught 2 seconds of the funeral from somewhere in St Omar was we went to France for the day.
  • Options
    Can people stop posting Dave Keating tweets on here, it makes me want to throw things at my screen and the Apple stores are closed at the moment :sob:
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    Did you clap last night at 6pm?
    I didn't.

    But then I'm a monster as I didn't clap for carers either.
    Why oh why do you hate this country?

    I was actually soaking in the bath (tmi, apols) with a Sea Arch & tonic (also tmi for this boozy crowd).
    Where we live, only the birds would hear us clapping.

    We had a Sainsbury's delivery that arrived at 5.45pm which we still sorting out.

    I never understood the public displays following the death of Princess Diana.

    I dread to think the reaction of this country when her Majesty moves on, it will make the three year mourning for Kim Il-sung look understated.
    The reaction to HMQ going will be several orders of magnitude different from what was experienced in 1997.

    Bar a few Republicans trying hard to ignore it, the whole country will stop for a couple of weeks. It will be the world's biggest news story of the year. My Mum is 74 now, she was five when the Queen ascended to the throne. The vast majority of the country don't know anything other than the Queen.
    I know this is different but...

    I was on holiday in the Lakes when the Queen Mother died (at some very advanced age). Arriving back to the farm we were staying at, the landlady stopped us in the hall and broke the news. She was very upset. None of us gave a fig (all mid twenties, three of the four from NZ), and we did not know how to react...

    I think for some when her maj 'retires' it will be huge (for Charles definitely - nods to Private Eye). For many others not so much. But the media will go mad.
    The Scouts were selling the official programme along the route on Coronation Day. I was posted to Regents Street.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,983

    Can people stop posting Dave Keating tweets on here, it makes me want to throw things at my screen and the Apple stores are closed at the moment :sob:

    They do offer click and collect....
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124




    Can one be in both the EEA and the CPTPP by some means?
    I think it's a theoretical yes to that question, from reading some of the earlier TPP documents, but it would have to be considered by the application of the first EEA country to the CP-TPP.

    EEA Members are not in the EU Customs Union, so in theory are free to make trade deals.

    FOM is a requirement for EEA I believe.
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    Did you clap last night at 6pm?
    I didn't.

    But then I'm a monster as I didn't clap for carers either.
    Why oh why do you hate this country?

    I was actually soaking in the bath (tmi, apols) with a Sea Arch & tonic (also tmi for this boozy crowd).
    Where we live, only the birds would hear us clapping.

    We had a Sainsbury's delivery that arrived at 5.45pm which we still sorting out.

    I never understood the public displays following the death of Princess Diana.

    I dread to think the reaction of this country when her Majesty moves on, it will make the three year mourning for Kim Il-sung look understated.
    The reaction to HMQ going will be several orders of magnitude different from what was experienced in 1997.

    Bar a few Republicans trying hard to ignore it, the whole country will stop for a couple of weeks. It will be the world's biggest news story of the year. My Mum is 74 now, she was five when the Queen ascended to the throne. The vast majority of the country don't know anything other than the Queen.
    I know this is different but...

    I was on holiday in the Lakes when the Queen Mother died (at some very advanced age). Arriving back to the farm we were staying at, the landlady stopped us in the hall and broke the news. She was very upset. None of us gave a fig (all mid twenties, three of the four from NZ), and we did not know how to react...

    I think for some when her maj 'retires' it will be huge (for Charles definitely - nods to Private Eye). For many others not so much. But the media will go mad.
    When Princess Di died we were up North house hunting and had to purchase a CD on the way home just to have something to listen to on the 6 hour drive back.

    The following Saturday we caught 2 seconds of the funeral from somewhere in St Omar was we went to France for the day.
    I remember waking up initially gutted to see Transworldsport was cancelled before the true horror of the next week's TV schedules dawned on me
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    That could hold some water if we had any idea at all about Labour's plans for the big, intractable problems and issues, but we don't. We don't even know if SKS means by the word 'fair' equalisation of opportunity or of outcomes. Nor do we know what he wants to do with UK outside the EU. Or debt. Or deficit. Or anything else.

    Nicola manages to be centre left and fly the flag and be proudly Scottish. It isn't that hard.

    It is quite hard, if your country is seen as an alpha nation, a victor and a conqueror: a nation that vanquished the world, creating the biggest empire in history, and, by the by, making sure everyone on the planet had to learn its language.

    That's England. Waving a flag in that context can be seen as vulgar gloating, at best, and as brutishly racist (the Empire) at worst.

    Despite the fact that Scotland happily joined England's empire, and did much of the imperialising, and is represented in the Union Jack as it is in the Commons, Sturgeon et al have managed to create a new Irish-like Scotland that had very little to do with the Empire, a poor wee valiant Scotland that has just been abused by big nasty England: therefore waving the flag is a lusty act of rebellion, a cry of defiance, William Wallace in a kilt on a horse, all that tartan shite

    To wave a flag without guilt, as a lefty, your country needs to be a loser, in some form.

    The French flag works because it is the flag of the republic, the little people, after the Revolution, NOT the ancien regime
    When you say "happily", wouldn't it be more appropriate to say ", as a result of managing to go bust putting the entire country's wealth in the 18th Century equivalent of Gamestop,"?
    Though what was the Darien Scheme, if not a colonial adventure ?
  • Options

    NEW THREAD

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    Pagan2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    Did you clap last night at 6pm?
    I didn't.

    But then I'm a monster as I didn't clap for carers either.
    Why oh why do you hate this country?

    I was actually soaking in the bath (tmi, apols) with a Sea Arch & tonic (also tmi for this boozy crowd).
    Where we live, only the birds would hear us clapping.

    We had a Sainsbury's delivery that arrived at 5.45pm which we still sorting out.

    I never understood the public displays following the death of Princess Diana.

    I dread to think the reaction of this country when her Majesty moves on, it will make the three year mourning for Kim Il-sung look understated.
    The reaction to HMQ going will be several orders of magnitude different from what was experienced in 1997.

    Bar a few Republicans trying hard to ignore it, the whole country will stop for a couple of weeks. It will be the world's biggest news story of the year. My Mum is 74 now, she was five when the Queen ascended to the throne. The vast majority of the country don't know anything other than the Queen.
    Yeah. I wonder how many who support the Monarchy actually support HMQ?
    Whatever. Her passing will be a psychic shock.
    Try singing "God Save the King". It isn't easy to do. It will take some adjustment.
    Would it be easier all round if we made Charles wear a dress and self identify as female?
    Seems a bit of a burdensome requirement for his continuing to post here.
    But up to OGH, in any event.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    The issue is that this thinktank has correctly identified a major problem for Labour - it is perceived as being anti-patriotic, and as contemptuous of its ex-core-vote: the white working class. For the very good reason that it IS.

    However, the same thinktank has failed to find any kind of solution. The idea you can magic this away with a few flags or "veterans at party rallies" (really?) is painfully simplistic. It will just look cringe.

    What can Labour do? Dunno. Copy the SNP, somehow? The SNP's patriotism works because it has successfully otherised the English. The Scots are proud and plucky but oppressed, we must throw off the colonial yoke, all that bullshit. It is the patriotism of grievance, and the underdog.

    Labour needs to find someone who is theoretically oppressing England, and then theatrically hate them. China?
    It's a strange sort of contempt for the working class that puts forward a policy platform geared specifically to their economic interests. But, ok, if some patriotic symbolism is required to get a hearing in the seats they need to win to have a chance at the next election, that's fine by me. No problem with it. I also have no problem with the left of the party keeping Starmer honest. I wouldn't want to see flaggery seeping into rhetoric and policies.
    "just some bigoted woman"
    You don't show you genuinely care about the interests of people by playing to that side of them. You appeal to their better side. You explain how your policies will make their life better.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited February 2021

    Gaussian said:

    What's the vaccine scores on the doors today?

    Wales 28k, Scotland 45k, England not available yet (unless somebody knows a quicker source than https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-vaccinations)
    That's a very good Scottish figure.

    Bodes well.
    Wales figure is slightly better on a per capita basis equivalent to 48696 Scottish jabs.
    England equivalent would be 461,700 for Scotland or 499,821 for Wales.

    England pop 55.98 million
    Scotland pop 5.454 million
    Wales pop 3.136 million
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    Pagan2 said:



    To be clear there is nothing wrong with arguing against this or any other header. Absolutely not, I dont agree with the tone of it myself, although it does make some good points and gets us to reflect.

    The issue is the hysterical response, threats to leave the site and criticising the author rather than the merits or not of the argument.

    I agree that posting a threat to leave the site is just dumb.

    If you want to leave the site, you can just leave it ... quietly. You won't be missed. No need to post, just go.

    None of us would be missed, if we were to stop posting.

    OTH, criticising Meeks is perfectly fine. He doles it out aplenty, so he can take it.

    The thread header writers are not red squirrels. They are not an endangered species needing protection.
    I slightly disagree, there are some on here whose opinions I value very much indeed. Its good to have different view points made, and often made very well indeed. So much better than echo chambers of social media. I would miss some of you...
    Who has threatened to leave the site? Just wondering.
    Don't think it was a regular poster
    Just someody who said he had been here 15 years. Mostly lurking I guess. But then, I wonder how more lurkers we lose to the relentless Boris bashing?
    Probably the same number we lost when Mike was accused of being anti Gordon Brown, or I was accused of being anti Ed Miliband, or those golden times in late 2016/17 I was accused of being anti Theresa May when I said she was a pound shop Gordon Brown in spite of polling really highly.

    2020 was PB's biggest year ever, but YoY, PB seems to go up and up in terms of site traffic.

    Thanks to all the writers, tipsters, and posters. In a nutshell I come to read the generally informed and broad based political comments. It is more informative than the BBC and newspapers. A significant number literally put their money where their mouth is. It's a great site.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631

    Pagan2 said:



    To be clear there is nothing wrong with arguing against this or any other header. Absolutely not, I dont agree with the tone of it myself, although it does make some good points and gets us to reflect.

    The issue is the hysterical response, threats to leave the site and criticising the author rather than the merits or not of the argument.

    I agree that posting a threat to leave the site is just dumb.

    If you want to leave the site, you can just leave it ... quietly. You won't be missed. No need to post, just go.

    None of us would be missed, if we were to stop posting.

    OTH, criticising Meeks is perfectly fine. He doles it out aplenty, so he can take it.

    The thread header writers are not red squirrels. They are not an endangered species needing protection.
    I slightly disagree, there are some on here whose opinions I value very much indeed. Its good to have different view points made, and often made very well indeed. So much better than echo chambers of social media. I would miss some of you...
    Who has threatened to leave the site? Just wondering.
    Don't think it was a regular poster
    Just someody who said he had been here 15 years. Mostly lurking I guess. But then, I wonder how more lurkers we lose to the relentless Boris bashing?
    That a new euphemism ?
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    kinabalu said:

    That's disappointing. Compliance has been high.
    I am not sure how one person can know that.
    The data on public compliance with lockdown shows it's been high.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    I can only assume that this Dave Keating fellow is an ultra brexit supporter. It's the only explanation.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    I do find it funny that most of the Spanish news channels have to show Spanish sub-titles for English whenever the Commissioners make public statements. Of course it doesn't alter the fact that Dave Keating is a useless mouthpiece.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,313
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    The issue is that this thinktank has correctly identified a major problem for Labour - it is perceived as being anti-patriotic, and as contemptuous of its ex-core-vote: the white working class. For the very good reason that it IS.

    However, the same thinktank has failed to find any kind of solution. The idea you can magic this away with a few flags or "veterans at party rallies" (really?) is painfully simplistic. It will just look cringe.

    What can Labour do? Dunno. Copy the SNP, somehow? The SNP's patriotism works because it has successfully otherised the English. The Scots are proud and plucky but oppressed, we must throw off the colonial yoke, all that bullshit. It is the patriotism of grievance, and the underdog.

    Labour needs to find someone who is theoretically oppressing England, and then theatrically hate them. China?
    It's a strange sort of contempt for the working class that puts forward a policy platform geared specifically to their economic interests. But, ok, if some patriotic symbolism is required to get a hearing in the seats they need to win to have a chance at the next election, that's fine by me. No problem with it. I also have no problem with the left of the party keeping Starmer honest. I wouldn't want to see flaggery seeping into rhetoric and policies.
    Whenever I hear some Hampstead intellectual bemoan the plight of the working classes I reach for my gun.

    Is part of your (party's) problem.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,669

    The results of this study seem to match the famous curve in the graph in the original Pfizer paper.
    It'll be 21 Days on Saturday since I had my first (Pfizer) vaccination.

    I'd go down the pub, but it's still shut!
    21 days for my dad on Saturday.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Can people stop posting Dave Keating tweets on here, it makes me want to throw things at my screen and the Apple stores are closed at the moment :sob:

    I don't know why HE doesn't post in German/French/Spanish - oh wait we all know - he can barely write in English!
  • Options
    Strong showing in England, 381,076 total, up 26% vs yesterday and 128,084 a week ago, first, 378,794 up 126,892 and second 2,282 up 1,192
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    edited February 2021
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    That could hold some water if we had any idea at all about Labour's plans for the big, intractable problems and issues, but we don't. We don't even know if SKS means by the word 'fair' equalisation of opportunity or of outcomes. Nor do we know what he wants to do with UK outside the EU. Or debt. Or deficit. Or anything else.

    Nicola manages to be centre left and fly the flag and be proudly Scottish. It isn't that hard.
    That's the point. It's not hard. It's very easy. Much easier than things that are actually important. Did we have this flag and patriotism obsession before Brexit? Don't think we did. Yet another downside.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    The issue is that this thinktank has correctly identified a major problem for Labour - it is perceived as being anti-patriotic, and as contemptuous of its ex-core-vote: the white working class. For the very good reason that it IS.

    However, the same thinktank has failed to find any kind of solution. The idea you can magic this away with a few flags or "veterans at party rallies" (really?) is painfully simplistic. It will just look cringe.

    What can Labour do? Dunno. Copy the SNP, somehow? The SNP's patriotism works because it has successfully otherised the English. The Scots are proud and plucky but oppressed, we must throw off the colonial yoke, all that bullshit. It is the patriotism of grievance, and the underdog.

    Labour needs to find someone who is theoretically oppressing England, and then theatrically hate them. China?
    It's a strange sort of contempt for the working class that puts forward a policy platform geared specifically to their economic interests. But, ok, if some patriotic symbolism is required to get a hearing in the seats they need to win to have a chance at the next election, that's fine by me. No problem with it. I also have no problem with the left of the party keeping Starmer honest. I wouldn't want to see flaggery seeping into rhetoric and policies.
    Whenever I hear some Hampstead intellectual bemoan the plight of the working classes I reach for my gun.

    Is part of your (party's) problem.
    I have to leave the party or shut up then, do I?
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    felix said:

    I do find it funny that most of the Spanish news channels have to show Spanish sub-titles for English whenever the Commissioners make public statements. Of course it doesn't alter the fact that Dave Keating is a useless mouthpiece.
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    That's disappointing. Compliance has been high.
    I am not sure how one person can know that.
    The data on public compliance with lockdown shows it's been high.
    I thought you had cameras in bathrooms to check hand washing compliance!!!

    Not sure I believe the numbers of people without masks, teenagers roaming around in groups, things relatives have told me on the phone.

    My mum who is in group 4 told me she hadn't seen anyone except my brother who she has formed a bubble with. Later on in the same conversation it turns out she had been around to see her friends new house - looked around and then had coffee. When she realised what she had let slip she said that they washed hands and her friends house was very clean!!!!!!!!!
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,631
    MaxPB said:

    I can only assume that this Dave Keating fellow is an ultra brexit supporter. It's the only explanation.

    An "American European" journalist.
    I think he's possibly just confused.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    Mortimer said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:

    But if patriotism and the flag need 'defending' by Labour against their own they have a problem that moderate working class voters can't solve for them. Until it is automatic and axiomatic that that is where they stand they will struggle to get a voice among the 40% Tiory votes - that's the ones they need.

    Does the centre left SNP have a problem with Scottish Patriotism and Scottish flag? Look at the polls and work it out.
    The fear is that the notion of transforming Britain is taking a back seat to virtue signalling about loving Britain.
    Why would you want to 'transform' a place if you genuinely love it? 'I love you so much, I've booked a complete transformation including some radical surgery for you, my darling' may not be the world's most winning message for Valentine's Day...
    Because when you love somebody - really love them - you want the very best for their future. Thus it is with the Left and the white working class of England. We want them to be wealthier, have more opportunities to realize their potential in life, generally have a fairer crack of the whip. The Right, OTOH, want them distracted by flags and obsessing about borders and foreigners.
    Whilst that is, I'm sure, tremendously well intentioned.

    1) Don't you think it can also a wee bit patronising? 'realise their potential in life' smacks of an over keen young graduate who has taken on the careers advisor role in a school with great gusto
    2) Does it also tally with mass unchecked worker competition/immigration from Europe that the left have been cheering on for decades?
    No I don't think it's patronising. It's the whole point of the ideology! And neither do I see a conflict with welcoming new citizens from overseas. That's a false bogeyman created by the right.
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    FairlieredFairliered Posts: 3,991
    Wales 28k, Scotland 45k, England not available yet (unless somebody knows a quicker source than https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-vaccinations)

    That's a very good Scottish figure.

    Bodes well.

    That’s because Alister Jack sent the English army to help.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,579
    edited February 2021
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    That's disappointing. Compliance has been high.
    I am not sure how one person can know that.
    The data on public compliance with lockdown shows it's been high.
    I thought you had cameras in bathrooms to check hand washing compliance!!!

    Not sure I believe the numbers of people without masks, teenagers roaming around in groups, things relatives have told me on the phone.

    My mum who is in group 4 told me she hadn't seen anyone except my brother who she has formed a bubble with. Later on in the same conversation it turns out she had been around to see her friends new house - looked around and then had coffee. When she realised what she had let slip she said that they washed hands and her friends house was very clean!!!!!!!!!

    LOL.

    That reminds me of children squabbling.

    "Did you steal your sister's biscuit?"

    (Sheepishly). "Yes, but I didn't like it."
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