It is so easy to rant and spray hyperbolic biased views from the comfort of a keyboard.
Of course the government made mistakes. More lives could have been saved. In doing so more may be destroyed in other ways.
Obsession with international comparisons is still lacking much useful practical or intellectual validity. Until you take away all the variables from population type, density, adherence, mental health, average BMI, co morbidity health service capaity and many other factors influencing the outcome, you know little of use. In effect you are pissing in the wind, probably being stupid doing it into the wind and howling at the moon.
We all know the risks we face in life, assess them and select an action. Some actions kill us, some kill others and some don't kill.
In all probability the worst action is care homes early on.
I'd tend to agree.
I'm really not convinced the better performance of other countries can be wholly attributed to policy decisions.
At any rate, these involve a set of trade-offs around health, the economy, personal freedoms. Effectively suspending the functioning of civil society and the economy isn't without its costs either, the relevant metric can't just be body bags (not to minimise the pain of anyone who's lost those close to them).
For me, Covid comes pretty close to qualifying as a death from natural cause (even accounting for any revelations coming from the WHO visit to China). Is it reasonable to expect the government to legislate against that?
I guess it's easy to look back in retrospect, and pinpoint errors. Xmas must be one of thoses. Given the inadequacy of the public health's establishments initial response, I think blame, if it is to be attributed, can't just be levelled on elected officials.
There's a huge number of different factors in the number of cases and deaths in each country, with a fine dance between population demographics and living density (lots of old people in care homes = bad), healthcare systems, government support and the balance between imposing restrictions and a free society. Generally speaking, countries with a more authoritarian society have found it easier to impose restrictions on behaviour, than more libertarian societies, and have contained the virus more easily. Look at the USA, where wearing masks became politicised in the run-up to their election, as an example of how not to do it.
When this is all done, there will be comparisons to be made about which healthcare systems worked best and which were overrun, which policy choices made early helped the containment and which helped the spread of the virus. IMO trying to understand what works and what doesn't, is way more important than trying to make base political points, against politicians who had no training for this type of emergency.
Comparisons about vaccination numbers are definitely fair game though. The number of people vaccinated in each country is almost entirely down to policy choices made by governments. People everywhere should be shouting at their governments about vaccines - they're the only way this crisis is going to go away.
The practical time to make use of a public enquiry was in the summer. Understand what went wrong so that we could do it better next time. Having missed that opportunity for the second spike and then openly encouraged a third spike, the public enquiry has to have two aims: 1. What went wrong. How did the UK get it so badly wrong compared to so many others 2. What we do differently in the next pandemic. As well as "don't do that" from point 1 there will also be a deconstruction of the successful clinical trials and vaccination programme so that we can go even faster in future.
We can't avoid this. You can't have 150k dead and expect the people in charge to not answer questions. Forget the politics and look at the death toll - its basic level responsibility to understand what happened as it would be after a train or plane crash, a disaster like Grenfell etc etc. We don't skip this critical stage because its politicians in the frame.
It would be good to update the cenotaph and town memorials with the names of the COVID dead. Less we forget,
Yeah, what this country needs is more maudlin sentimentality.
I've lost track of what badge/emblem/flag/shoelaces/shirt epaulettes I'm supposed to be wearing on any given day. Colleagues who are going for promotion are festooned with the stuff, worried that they're not wearing the correct bauble for whatever "International Day Of" it is. I've left the boat. I couldn't even be arsed to wear a poppy last year and it felt good. I chucked a fiver in the poppy tin at my local Coop, but didn't pick up a poppy. That's how I'm rolling from now on.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
Politicalbetting is an excellent site and I have enjoyed coming here (and very occasionally posting) over the past 15 years. The insight on the future being the main reason.
But this post is the last straw. I am no fan of Boris but this has nothing to do with political betting and is just pure political vitriol that I can go and read on the Canary if I want to.
Good to luck to OGH and all of you but I vote with my feet.
I feel the same.
I like this site for mostly good debate on threads that, certainly in Mike's case, are invariably betting related.
This has bugger all to do with betting. It's just bile from an embittered man who lost on Brexit.
Sort it out OGH or your regulars will depart this site.
The response to comments like this is, “see yer”.
And you run the risk of losing many varied and good contributors by comments like that
It’s Mike site, if you don’t like it, hop it, Very easy.
This is the lazy man's answer.
Nah, it’s the only answer. You just don’t like it. This is Mike’s site. If you don’t like or can’t handle opinions different to your own, why not have a flounce, many do. There are many comfortable bubbles out there to wallow in. People do tend to come back.
The thing is that opinions vary in more than one way. Some are interestingly wrong, some boringly and stupidly so. It is perfectly consistent to agree that a thousand flowers should bloom, and to want to see the boring and stupid ones cleared out.
It’s entirely subjective, Don’t engage with the stuff you personally don’t find interesting. Go for walk or have a bath. Do whatever it is you actually do. Don’t try to censor it and create yet another tedious bubble on the Internet.
Or go off topic, unprecedented as it is on PB.
James Justin for the England squad for example. 9/2 at present. Just as Leicester sold our third best centre back for a fortune, so did we with our second best left back. Arguably the third...
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
The general public are way more forgiving of governments than a bunch of political obsessives posting on a blog! Most people are still of the view that it's a natural disaster, rather than one that's man-made, and that governments are doing their best even when mistakes are made.
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
I agree with Alastair that the English government's record is not a good one. As this is Political Betting.com, the interesting question to ask is, why isn't their more anger from the people?
I think Alastair also used to point out that the people weren't keen on coming out to play back when the government was talking about getting things back to normal last summer. Well, I think that's been proven wrong. Sure, people didn't want to go back to the office, but they happily went shopping and to the pub.
That's not to blame the people rather than the government, but I do think it's part of the equation. A lot of us weren't prepared to make sacrifices unless under strict instruction, and I think deep down that's why the government is being given the benefit of the doubt.
Oh yeah, and vaccines. They matter, because they offer hope for the future. It's hard to compare cost of lives and cost of life, but the latter it is perhaps more pertinent because it's felt by people who are still alive and can vote.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
Indeed and in general the advice has followed the science. Why the scientists were saying not to use facemasks early on for instance, when they are such a relatively low-effort option to assist in preventing viral spread, is definitely a lesson we should learn.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
There is no single person responsible. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Is the PM responsible for the actions of Piers Corbyn and Toby Young and everyone they've influenced?
I hope we never live in a country where one person is responsible for everyone.
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Yep. The best responses are numerous posts from folk saying they’re being censored and that they’re going to leave cos they don’t like what they’re reading. Snowflake nation...
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
Indeed and in general the advice has followed the science. Why the scientists were saying not to use facemasks early on for instance, when they are such a relatively low-effort option to assist in preventing viral spread, is definitely a lesson we should learn.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
The only plausible reason for not recommending everyone wear facemasks back in February and March last year, would be the fear that there would be a run on them, leading to a shortage in healthcare situations where they are more effective.
But yes, it would be useful for someone to stand up now and say that was the judgement at the time.
And can I please remind people that in terms of the global pandemic this is probably barely half-time. Before rushing to write-off the UK it would be better to evaluate the death tally when it's over.
Which is of course where our vaccination policy comes in. I notice that we're now below France on daily cases. That trend, whilst not linear, is set to accelerate as our vaccinations kick in.
If you want to evaluate this on death tallies do so after the final whistle.
That's meaningless.
Being shit in the first half and letting 100k die, over 25% of whom were in the last month, over a thousand a day, was not a prerequisite of having a great vaccine roll out now.
In the end, outside the West Pacific rim, I think handling the pandemic will be pretty much a wash between countries in terms of mortality and economic hit. The European countries will be awash with vaccines too by the end of Q2. The Americans will bounce back more quickly economically etc.
In the end, outside the West Pacific rim, I think handling the pandemic will be pretty much a wash between countries in terms of mortality and economic hit. The European countries will be awash with vaccines too by the end of Q2. The Americans will bounce back more quickly economically etc.
No one is a winner.
I find the whole language of "winners" and "losers" in relation to a pandemic in rather poor taste.
I think criticism of the governmentS could currently more usefully be directed at the shambolic management of the border. The Scottish government has announced they will “go further” than the U.K. - I await details with bated breath (as do Scottish Airports and airport hotels) - perhaps the more joyous and civic Nats can lead rather than carp? Rhetoric is easy but governing is hard.
If they listen to Salmond, the current Scottish government will go as far as the North Pole. And stay there.
In the end, outside the West Pacific rim, I think handling the pandemic will be pretty much a wash between countries in terms of mortality and economic hit. The European countries will be awash with vaccines too by the end of Q2. The Americans will bounce back more quickly economically etc.
No one is a winner.
I find the whole language of "winners" and "losers" in relation to a pandemic in rather poor taste.
The closest to a 'winner' in all this is China.
Pretty much everywhere else in the world is suffering a harsh recession and a rising toll of sickness and death. There's only going to be different levels of bad.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
Indeed and in general the advice has followed the science. Why the scientists were saying not to use facemasks early on for instance, when they are such a relatively low-effort option to assist in preventing viral spread, is definitely a lesson we should learn.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
We HAVE to learn the lessons - its the same as any other enquiry into a calamity. But if as the evidence is uncovered it becomes apparent that certain people have at best an untenable position and at worst criminal charges to face, do we ignore those because they are politicians?
We used to have a country where people took personal responsibility for their actions. Literally what you arguing for. So how about the PM and various Secretaries of State doing what you implore and taking ownership of their behaviour?
Interesting topic, but a more useful comparator would be, perhaps, with the number that lose their lives annually in road accidents; or even with the number of potential people that are aborted.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss it was tantamount to shouting at the public "don't bother following the rules, this Dominic bloke you have never heard of has broken them so you don't have to either".
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
There is no single person responsible. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Is the PM responsible for the actions of Piers Corbyn and Toby Young and everyone they've influenced?
I hope we never live in a country where one person is responsible for everyone.
I want the PM - like everyone else - to take personal responsibility for his actions. Are you saying he is blameless?
In the end, outside the West Pacific rim, I think handling the pandemic will be pretty much a wash between countries in terms of mortality and economic hit. The European countries will be awash with vaccines too by the end of Q2. The Americans will bounce back more quickly economically etc.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
Indeed and in general the advice has followed the science. Why the scientists were saying not to use facemasks early on for instance, when they are such a relatively low-effort option to assist in preventing viral spread, is definitely a lesson we should learn.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
The only plausible reason for not recommending everyone wear facemasks back in February and March last year, would be the fear that there would be a run on them, leading to a shortage in healthcare situations where they are more effective.
But yes, it would be useful for someone to stand up now and say that was the judgement at the time.
I think Fauci or someone has pretty much admitted this. The problem with "standing up now" is that it's tantamount to saying "the scientists lied to you because lying is a powerful weapon in our armoury; we will continue to deploy it when we think it expedient to do so. Oh, and the vaccine is 100% safe for sure." Discreet silence has a lot to be dsaid for it.
Interesting topic, but a more useful comparator would be, perhaps, with the number that lose their lives annually in road accidents; or even with the number of potential people that are aborted.
Good morning, everyone.
1752 Road traffic accidents in 2019
Won’t that be quite substantially down in 2020 as well?
(PS, you mean ‘fatalities’ not ‘accidents.’)
Edit - 1580 for the year to June 2020, so a fall, but it will be interesting to see if that is sustained for the next twelve month period.
In the end, outside the West Pacific rim, I think handling the pandemic will be pretty much a wash between countries in terms of mortality and economic hit. The European countries will be awash with vaccines too by the end of Q2. The Americans will bounce back more quickly economically etc.
No one is a winner.
I find the whole language of "winners" and "losers" in relation to a pandemic in rather poor taste.
The closest to a 'winner' in all this is China.
Pretty much everywhere else in the world is suffering a harsh recession and a rising toll of sickness and death. There's only going to be different levels of bad.
Ironic isn`t it.
Is there a lack of criticism of China from the UK-bashers? Wet markets?
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss
And can I please remind people that in terms of the global pandemic this is probably barely half-time. Before rushing to write-off the UK it would be better to evaluate the death tally when it's over.
Which is of course where our vaccination policy comes in. I notice that we're now below France on daily cases. That trend, whilst not linear, is set to accelerate as our vaccinations kick in.
If you want to evaluate this on death tallies do so after the final whistle.
That's meaningless.
Being shit in the first half and letting 100k die, over 25% of whom were in the last month, over a thousand a day, was not a prerequisite of having a great vaccine roll out now.
Strangely though it’s far too early to make a judgment on BJ’s year long Covid response and it’s 100k+ death toll, we are ready to declare the two month long vaccine rollout a triumph without defect. I haven’t quite worked out why BJ defending Tory British nationalists feel able to do this, but I’ll get there.
Interesting topic, but a more useful comparator would be, perhaps, with the number that lose their lives annually in road accidents; or even with the number of potential people that are aborted.
Good morning, everyone.
1752 Road traffic deaths in 2019
Won’t that be quite substantially down in 2020 as well?
(PS, you mean ‘fatalities’ not ‘accidents.’)
Don't know what you mean *cough*
Don't think 2020 figures are available yet but I imagine they must be down substantially.
...but we've vaccinated over 10,000,000 people, no other metric matters anymore. Although perhaps it should!
Alastair is consumed with his hatred of Boris and in this unbalanced piece it all flows out
I think it an excellent piece. 109,000 deaths on Johnson and Drakeford,'s watch.
Can we absolve Johnson because he got the vaccine right and yet still hang Drakeford for his hand in the death of 109,000 people? Possibly.
I am not absolving anyone and a public enquiry will follow.
However, this piece has no balance and indeed on this week, of all weeks, he makes no reference to his beloved Europe and the objectionable behaviour of their leaders which are likely to have a devastating effect on the peoples of Europe.
I do not see him calling for their resignations
Your comment has no balance, apparently skewed by your hatred of Alastair. Or perhaps idolisation of Boris.
I do not hate but Alastair has long lost all balance on Boris
And if you follow my posts you will have seen me critise Boris and I have said he is not the person for covid
You do say that some days. Other days you say anyone else criticising the PM should not be allowed to say it. Hard to keep up.
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss it was tantamount to shouting at the public "don't bother following the rules, this Dominic bloke you have never heard of has broken them so you don't have to either".
I don’t think it was so much that he broke the rules. What really infuriated people was the cover up. If you break quarantine, drive the length of England to lock down in a house with a garden, take a nice day out for your wife’s birthday, get caught, Force the Attorney general to rewrite the law to protect you, cause the whole government machine into overdrive in support, and then tell repeated stupid lies that are an insult to everyone’s intelligence about what happened, to keep a job you were never actually showing the least sign of competence in, then people will get angry.
If he’d said (as Richard Tyndall of this parish pointed out at the time) ‘I put my family first and to do that I broke the rules. I realise that wasn’t good enough and I resign,’ it would have been over in hours. And he’d probably be back in government by now instead of having been spectacularly sacked for a second crass failure of judgement.
Anyway, why isn’t everyone asking what is happening to Liverpool this season
They haven't been the same, since they closed the stadia and started playing behind closed doors.
Some very weird football results this season and the end of last, didn't someone (@isam?) work out that the notion of home advantage had actually turned slightly negative without crowds present?
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss it was tantamount to shouting at the public "don't bother following the rules, this Dominic bloke you have never heard of has broken them so you don't have to either".
I don’t think it was so much that he broke the rules. What really infuriated people was the cover up. If you break quarantine, drive the length of England to lock down in a house with a garden, take a nice day out for your wife’s birthday, get caught, Force the Attorney general to rewrite the law to protect you, cause the whole government machine into overdrive in support, and then tell repeated stupid lies that are an insult to everyone’s intelligence about what happened, to keep a job you were never actually showing the least sign of competence in, then people will get angry.
If he’d said (as Richard Tyndall of this parish pointed out at the time) ‘I put my family first and to do that I broke the rules. I realise that wasn’t good enough and I resign,’ it would have been over in hours. And he’d probably be back in government by now instead of having been spectacularly sacked for a second crass failure of judgement.
Hypocrisy and a cover up. One rule for trusted government advisors another for us. Never a good look politically.
Interesting topic, but a more useful comparator would be, perhaps, with the number that lose their lives annually in road accidents; or even with the number of potential people that are aborted.
Good morning, everyone.
1752 Road traffic deaths in 2019
Won’t that be quite substantially down in 2020 as well?
(PS, you mean ‘fatalities’ not ‘accidents.’)
Don't know what you mean *cough*
Don't think 2020 figures are available yet but I imagine they must be down substantially.
I dunno, the last few nights we've had our own version of the Macau Grand Prix round here. Apparently the track runs between the Brookwood crossroads and runs up the A322 to J3 of the M3 and back again.
...but we've vaccinated over 10,000,000 people, no other metric matters anymore. Although perhaps it should!
Alastair is consumed with his hatred of Boris and in this unbalanced piece it all flows out
I think it an excellent piece. 109,000 deaths on Johnson and Drakeford,'s watch.
Can we absolve Johnson because he got the vaccine right and yet still hang Drakeford for his hand in the death of 109,000 people? Possibly.
I am not absolving anyone and a public enquiry will follow.
However, this piece has no balance and indeed on this week, of all weeks, he makes no reference to his beloved Europe and the objectionable behaviour of their leaders which are likely to have a devastating effect on the peoples of Europe.
I do not see him calling for their resignations
Your comment has no balance, apparently skewed by your hatred of Alastair. Or perhaps idolisation of Boris.
I do not hate but Alastair has long lost all balance on Boris
And if you follow my posts you will have seen me critise Boris and I have said he is not the person for covid
You do say that some days. Other days you say anyone else criticising the PM should not be allowed to say it. Hard to keep up.
Alastair can say what he likes, as can everyone on here, but it is right to put his anti brexit anti Boris mantra into context and the unbalanced nature of his piece.
Remember, here in Wales Boris was not the First Minister and Drakeford who is has had a far worse covid crisis than Boris but no mention in the piece of the role of the devolved administrations who, whether he likes it or not, are just as involved in the outcomes as Boris
It is so easy to rant and spray hyperbolic biased views from the comfort of a keyboard.
Of course the government made mistakes. More lives could have been saved. In doing so more may be destroyed in other ways.
Obsession with international comparisons is still lacking much useful practical or intellectual validity. Until you take away all the variables from population type, density, adherence, mental health, average BMI, co morbidity health service capaity and many other factors influencing the outcome, you know little of use. In effect you are pissing in the wind, probably being stupid doing it into the wind and howling at the moon.
We all know the risks we face in life, assess them and select an action. Some actions kill us, some kill others and some don't kill.
In all probability the worst action is care homes early on.
I'd tend to agree.
I'm really not convinced the better performance of other countries can be wholly attributed to policy decisions.
At any rate, these involve a set of trade-offs around health, the economy, personal freedoms. Effectively suspending the functioning of civil society and the economy isn't without its costs either, the relevant metric can't just be body bags (not to minimise the pain of anyone who's lost those close to them).
For me, Covid comes pretty close to qualifying as a death from natural cause (even accounting for any revelations coming from the WHO visit to China). Is it reasonable to expect the government to legislate against that?
I guess it's easy to look back in retrospect, and pinpoint errors. Xmas must be one of thoses. Given the inadequacy of the public health's establishments initial response, I think blame, if it is to be attributed, can't just be levelled on elected officials.
Good post, I think its the closest to my overall view, but I would go a little bit further in criticism of the govt - not for the responses initially, but making the same mistake over and over, repeatedly waiting and postponing action in hope rather than getting ahead of the virus, the biggest example being xmas and the latest example being quarantine which will only happen in mid Feb which might be too late to stop the SA variant coming in. Despite these mistakes, it is still a mixed scorecard, like everywhere else, involving trade offs and shared responsibility between govt and wider society.
Interesting topic, but a more useful comparator would be, perhaps, with the number that lose their lives annually in road accidents; or even with the number of potential people that are aborted.
Good morning, everyone.
1752 Road traffic deaths in 2019
Won’t that be quite substantially down in 2020 as well?
Anyway, why isn’t everyone asking what is happening to Liverpool this season
They haven't been the same, since they closed the stadia and started playing behind closed doors.
Some very weird football results this season and the end of last, didn't someone (@isam?) work out that the notion of home advantage had actually turned slightly negative without crowds present?
There was never an atmosphere in the Olympic Stadium, so West Ham have been perfectly adapted to playing in the Covid environment.
Liverpool struggling is not newsworthy, that’s normal. It was last year that was unusual.
...but we've vaccinated over 10,000,000 people, no other metric matters anymore. Although perhaps it should!
Alastair is consumed with his hatred of Boris and in this unbalanced piece it all flows out
I think it an excellent piece. 109,000 deaths on Johnson and Drakeford,'s watch.
Can we absolve Johnson because he got the vaccine right and yet still hang Drakeford for his hand in the death of 109,000 people? Possibly.
I am not absolving anyone and a public enquiry will follow.
However, this piece has no balance and indeed on this week, of all weeks, he makes no reference to his beloved Europe and the objectionable behaviour of their leaders which are likely to have a devastating effect on the peoples of Europe.
I do not see him calling for their resignations
Your comment has no balance, apparently skewed by your hatred of Alastair. Or perhaps idolisation of Boris.
I do not hate but Alastair has long lost all balance on Boris
And if you follow my posts you will have seen me critise Boris and I have said he is not the person for covid
You do say that some days. Other days you say anyone else criticising the PM should not be allowed to say it. Hard to keep up.
Alastair can say what he likes, as can everyone on here, but it is right to put his anti brexit anti Boris mantra into context and the unbalanced nature of his piece.
Remember, here in Wales Boris was not the First Minister and Drakeford who is has had a far worse covid crisis than Boris but no mention in the piece of the role of the devolved administrations who, whether he likes it or not, are just as involved in the outcomes as Boris
They are not just as involved even if you say it 1,000 times. Alastair does not live in Wales. He does not vote for Welsh politicians. It is unreasonable for a country to choose devolution and then expect the rest of the country, 95% of the population, to give equal attention to Welsh and Westminster politics.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss it was tantamount to shouting at the public "don't bother following the rules, this Dominic bloke you have never heard of has broken them so you don't have to either".
I don’t think it was so much that he broke the rules. What really infuriated people was the cover up. If you break quarantine, drive the length of England to lock down in a house with a garden, take a nice day out for your wife’s birthday, get caught, Force the Attorney general to rewrite the law to protect you, cause the whole government machine into overdrive in support, and then tell repeated stupid lies that are an insult to everyone’s intelligence about what happened, to keep a job you were never actually showing the least sign of competence in, then people will get angry.
If he’d said (as Richard Tyndall of this parish pointed out at the time) ‘I put my family first and to do that I broke the rules. I realise that wasn’t good enough and I resign,’ it would have been over in hours. And he’d probably be back in government by now instead of having been spectacularly sacked for a second crass failure of judgement.
You've nailed it, except for the missing ending about putting it around that you were really on a secret mission to save the nation by ordering some vaccines from a nearby (aka many miles away) factory, when in reality you were ill recovering from the virus.
Just finished Series 1. Latest viewing “The Trial of the Chicago Seven” and on iPlayer “The Investigation”. I enjoyed “The Dig” - slow, gently lyrical and a perfect antidote to a dreary February!
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss
Could you list them?
Probably not, because not so much fuss was made at the time. Jenrick and some other minister I think. I'm sure there were people on the Labour benches. As it happens I think Boris should have fired him, but the effect of people banging on and on and on about him was simply to bring him to the attention of people who normally don't give a stuff about government advisers. In any case it's a complete non-sequitur, plenty of people get away with murder but it doesn't mean I should commit one.
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
There is no single person responsible. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Is the PM responsible for the actions of Piers Corbyn and Toby Young and everyone they've influenced?
I hope we never live in a country where one person is responsible for everyone.
I want the PM - like everyone else - to take personal responsibility for his actions. Are you saying he is blameless?
No. I think he is human, I think some mistakes have been made, some things have gone very well. Lessons should be learnt and he's accepted responsibility. Responsibility doesn't mean resigning and passing the buck for dealing with your actions onto somebody else.
Quite frankly the most important thing of the pandemic is not the death toll, it is how to end this dystopian nightmare. The answer to that is surely vaccines and the government has done a good job on that, the most important issue of all.
On average over 50,000 people die every single month in the UK normal circumstances. Over 600,000 people normally die per year in the UK in normal circumstances. For every month this pandemic drags on past the point it could be over that is an average of 50,000 people who have lost their last month of their life without seeing their family - time they will never get back.
This pandemic hasn't just cost 100,000 lives - this pandemic and the restrictions imposed will have seen about 700,000 people die in the past year who were unable to see their families, unable to live the end of their lives as normal.
Quibbling over a few thousand excess death variance is silly pointscoring nonsense. End the pandemic, give everyone their lives back and learn lessons.
Just finished Series 1. Latest viewing “The Trial of the Chicago Seven” and on iPlayer “The Investigation”. I enjoyed “The Dig” - slow, gently lyrical and a perfect antidote to a dreary February!
The Investigation is very good, but I think I prefer Bordertown. I`m convinced that the lead character is Dominic Cummings.
It is so easy to rant and spray hyperbolic biased views from the comfort of a keyboard.
Of course the government made mistakes. More lives could have been saved. In doing so more may be destroyed in other ways.
Obsession with international comparisons is still lacking much useful practical or intellectual validity. Until you take away all the variables from population type, density, adherence, mental health, average BMI, co morbidity health service capaity and many other factors influencing the outcome, you know little of use. In effect you are pissing in the wind, probably being stupid doing it into the wind and howling at the moon.
We all know the risks we face in life, assess them and select an action. Some actions kill us, some kill others and some don't kill.
In all probability the worst action is care homes early on.
I'd tend to agree.
I'm really not convinced the better performance of other countries can be wholly attributed to policy decisions.
At any rate, these involve a set of trade-offs around health, the economy, personal freedoms. Effectively suspending the functioning of civil society and the economy isn't without its costs either, the relevant metric can't just be body bags (not to minimise the pain of anyone who's lost those close to them).
For me, Covid comes pretty close to qualifying as a death from natural cause (even accounting for any revelations coming from the WHO visit to China). Is it reasonable to expect the government to legislate against that?
I guess it's easy to look back in retrospect, and pinpoint errors. Xmas must be one of thoses. Given the inadequacy of the public health's establishments initial response, I think blame, if it is to be attributed, can't just be levelled on elected officials.
Good post, I think its the closest to my overall view, but I would go a little bit further in criticism of the govt - not for the responses initially, but making the same mistake over and over, repeatedly waiting and postponing action in hope rather than getting ahead of the virus, the biggest example being xmas and the latest example being quarantine which will only happen in mid Feb which might be too late to stop the SA variant coming in. Despite these mistakes, it is still a mixed scorecard, like everywhere else, involving trade offs and shared responsibility between govt and wider society.
+1
Opening the schools - despite lots of relevant people calling for you not to - on a Monday, so that children could share their infections, then caving in and closing them on a Tuesday was another classic.
As was threatening a council with legal action for wanting to move its schools to remote learning one week, then closing those schools by law a week later.
...but we've vaccinated over 10,000,000 people, no other metric matters anymore. Although perhaps it should!
Alastair is consumed with his hatred of Boris and in this unbalanced piece it all flows out
I think it an excellent piece. 109,000 deaths on Johnson and Drakeford,'s watch.
Can we absolve Johnson because he got the vaccine right and yet still hang Drakeford for his hand in the death of 109,000 people? Possibly.
I am not absolving anyone and a public enquiry will follow.
However, this piece has no balance and indeed on this week, of all weeks, he makes no reference to his beloved Europe and the objectionable behaviour of their leaders which are likely to have a devastating effect on the peoples of Europe.
I do not see him calling for their resignations
Your comment has no balance, apparently skewed by your hatred of Alastair. Or perhaps idolisation of Boris.
I do not hate but Alastair has long lost all balance on Boris
And if you follow my posts you will have seen me critise Boris and I have said he is not the person for covid
You do say that some days. Other days you say anyone else criticising the PM should not be allowed to say it. Hard to keep up.
Alastair can say what he likes, as can everyone on here, but it is right to put his anti brexit anti Boris mantra into context and the unbalanced nature of his piece.
Remember, here in Wales Boris was not the First Minister and Drakeford who is has had a far worse covid crisis than Boris but no mention in the piece of the role of the devolved administrations who, whether he likes it or not, are just as involved in the outcomes as Boris
They are not just as involved even if you say it 1,000 times. Alastair does not live in Wales. He does not vote for Welsh politicians. It is unreasonable for a country to choose devolution and then expect the rest of the country, 95% of the population, to give equal attention to Welsh and Westminster politics.
Not sure I understand your argument as all the devolved administrations were involved in this and we all vote for a party at the GE to go to Westminster
It is so easy to rant and spray hyperbolic biased views from the comfort of a keyboard.
Of course the government made mistakes. More lives could have been saved. In doing so more may be destroyed in other ways.
Obsession with international comparisons is still lacking much useful practical or intellectual validity. Until you take away all the variables from population type, density, adherence, mental health, average BMI, co morbidity health service capaity and many other factors influencing the outcome, you know little of use. In effect you are pissing in the wind, probably being stupid doing it into the wind and howling at the moon.
We all know the risks we face in life, assess them and select an action. Some actions kill us, some kill others and some don't kill.
In all probability the worst action is care homes early on.
I'd tend to agree.
I'm really not convinced the better performance of other countries can be wholly attributed to policy decisions.
At any rate, these involve a set of trade-offs around health, the economy, personal freedoms. Effectively suspending the functioning of civil society and the economy isn't without its costs either, the relevant metric can't just be body bags (not to minimise the pain of anyone who's lost those close to them).
For me, Covid comes pretty close to qualifying as a death from natural cause (even accounting for any revelations coming from the WHO visit to China). Is it reasonable to expect the government to legislate against that?
I guess it's easy to look back in retrospect, and pinpoint errors. Xmas must be one of thoses. Given the inadequacy of the public health's establishments initial response, I think blame, if it is to be attributed, can't just be levelled on elected officials.
Good post, I think its the closest to my overall view, but I would go a little bit further in criticism of the govt - not for the responses initially, but making the same mistake over and over, repeatedly waiting and postponing action in hope rather than getting ahead of the virus, the biggest example being xmas and the latest example being quarantine which will only happen in mid Feb which might be too late to stop the SA variant coming in. Despite these mistakes, it is still a mixed scorecard, like everywhere else, involving trade offs and shared responsibility between govt and wider society.
+1
Opening the schools - despite lots of relevant people calling for you not to - on a Monday, so that children could share their infections, then caving in and closing them on a Tuesday was another classic.
Yes, but was the error the original intention to keep them open or the caving in?
...but we've vaccinated over 10,000,000 people, no other metric matters anymore. Although perhaps it should!
Alastair is consumed with his hatred of Boris and in this unbalanced piece it all flows out
I think it an excellent piece. 109,000 deaths on Johnson and Drakeford,'s watch.
Can we absolve Johnson because he got the vaccine right and yet still hang Drakeford for his hand in the death of 109,000 people? Possibly.
I am not absolving anyone and a public enquiry will follow.
However, this piece has no balance and indeed on this week, of all weeks, he makes no reference to his beloved Europe and the objectionable behaviour of their leaders which are likely to have a devastating effect on the peoples of Europe.
I do not see him calling for their resignations
Your comment has no balance, apparently skewed by your hatred of Alastair. Or perhaps idolisation of Boris.
I do not hate but Alastair has long lost all balance on Boris
And if you follow my posts you will have seen me critise Boris and I have said he is not the person for covid
You do say that some days. Other days you say anyone else criticising the PM should not be allowed to say it. Hard to keep up.
Alastair can say what he likes, as can everyone on here, but it is right to put his anti brexit anti Boris mantra into context and the unbalanced nature of his piece.
Remember, here in Wales Boris was not the First Minister and Drakeford who is has had a far worse covid crisis than Boris but no mention in the piece of the role of the devolved administrations who, whether he likes it or not, are just as involved in the outcomes as Boris
Something about splinters, planks and eyes comes to mind when I read your blind defence of Johnson and vitriolic attacks on Drakeford.
Alastair is right to point out that the death toll from this pernicious disease has been dreadful and the preliminary evidence is that it is slightly more dreadful here than elsewhere. That may not ultimately prove to be the case, the uncertainty with international comparisons is large, but the preliminary evidence is against us.
Why is an important question and it is not one that this piece tries to address. If we hypothesise that things went wrong what was it that went wrong?
For me, the most obvious and egregious errors relate to border control or the lack of them. Yesterday at his press conference Boris was claiming that we now had some of the toughest border controls in the world. If that had been the case a year ago tens of thousands would not have died of Covid (many of the them may well have died of other things of course).
Even yesterday Boris was explaining that this was a difficult balancing act given the need for the UK to trade, the need to import nearly half our food, the very open nature of our economy. This is undoubtedly true and these judgments are not easy but the first duty of the government is to protect its people and the likes of Grant Shapps and the airline lobby have a major responsibility. We must learn from this mistake.
Of course the government has done a lot of things well too, notably some of the economic measures and the vaccines. But I personally have no problem in recognising that serious mistakes that cost lives were made.
It is so easy to rant and spray hyperbolic biased views from the comfort of a keyboard.
Of course the government made mistakes. More lives could have been saved. In doing so more may be destroyed in other ways.
Obsession with international comparisons is still lacking much useful practical or intellectual validity. Until you take away all the variables from population type, density, adherence, mental health, average BMI, co morbidity health service capaity and many other factors influencing the outcome, you know little of use. In effect you are pissing in the wind, probably being stupid doing it into the wind and howling at the moon.
We all know the risks we face in life, assess them and select an action. Some actions kill us, some kill others and some don't kill.
In all probability the worst action is care homes early on.
I'd tend to agree.
I'm really not convinced the better performance of other countries can be wholly attributed to policy decisions.
At any rate, these involve a set of trade-offs around health, the economy, personal freedoms. Effectively suspending the functioning of civil society and the economy isn't without its costs either, the relevant metric can't just be body bags (not to minimise the pain of anyone who's lost those close to them).
For me, Covid comes pretty close to qualifying as a death from natural cause (even accounting for any revelations coming from the WHO visit to China). Is it reasonable to expect the government to legislate against that?
I guess it's easy to look back in retrospect, and pinpoint errors. Xmas must be one of thoses. Given the inadequacy of the public health's establishments initial response, I think blame, if it is to be attributed, can't just be levelled on elected officials.
Good post, I think its the closest to my overall view, but I would go a little bit further in criticism of the govt - not for the responses initially, but making the same mistake over and over, repeatedly waiting and postponing action in hope rather than getting ahead of the virus, the biggest example being xmas and the latest example being quarantine which will only happen in mid Feb which might be too late to stop the SA variant coming in. Despite these mistakes, it is still a mixed scorecard, like everywhere else, involving trade offs and shared responsibility between govt and wider society.
+1
Opening the schools - despite lots of relevant people calling for you not to - on a Monday, so that children could share their infections, then caving in and closing them on a Tuesday was another classic.
If this pandemic doesn’t lead to the scrapping of the DfE and a complete reset of educational administration from first principles, nothing short of a nuclear holocaust will.
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
There is no single person responsible. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Is the PM responsible for the actions of Piers Corbyn and Toby Young and everyone they've influenced?
I hope we never live in a country where one person is responsible for everyone.
I want the PM - like everyone else - to take personal responsibility for his actions. Are you saying he is blameless?
No. I think he is human, I think some mistakes have been made, some things have gone very well. Lessons should be learnt and he's accepted responsibility. Responsibility doesn't mean resigning and passing the buck for dealing with your actions onto somebody else.
Quite frankly the most important thing of the pandemic is not the death toll, it is how to end this dystopian nightmare. The answer to that is surely vaccines and the government has done a good job on that, the most important issue of all.
On average over 50,000 people die every single month in the UK normal circumstances. Over 600,000 people normally die per year in the UK in normal circumstances. For every month this pandemic drags on past the point it could be over that is an average of 50,000 people who have lost their last month of their life without seeing their family - time they will never get back.
This pandemic hasn't just cost 100,000 lives - this pandemic and the restrictions imposed will have seen about 700,000 people die in the past year who were unable to see their families, unable to live the end of their lives as normal.
Quibbling over a few thousand excess death variance is silly pointscoring nonsense. End the pandemic, give everyone their lives back and learn lessons.
Anyway, why isn’t everyone asking what is happening to Liverpool this season
They haven't been the same, since they closed the stadia and started playing behind closed doors.
Some very weird football results this season and the end of last, didn't someone (@isam?) work out that the notion of home advantage had actually turned slightly negative without crowds present?
There was never an atmosphere in the Olympic Stadium, so West Ham have been perfectly adapted to playing in the Covid environment.
Liverpool struggling is not newsworthy, that’s normal. It was last year that was unusual.
Ha, I was going to make a dig about Arsenal and West Ham not having to worry about the atmosphere too much (and poor Spurs haven't seen more than a dozen crowds at their new place) but thought better of it.
Liverpool had been building up to last year for a while, but definitely seem to have lost their way a little now they've got the trophy in the cabinet.
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
There is no single person responsible. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Is the PM responsible for the actions of Piers Corbyn and Toby Young and everyone they've influenced?
I hope we never live in a country where one person is responsible for everyone.
I want the PM - like everyone else - to take personal responsibility for his actions. Are you saying he is blameless?
No. I think he is human, I think some mistakes have been made, some things have gone very well. Lessons should be learnt and he's accepted responsibility. Responsibility doesn't mean resigning and passing the buck for dealing with your actions onto somebody else.
Quite frankly the most important thing of the pandemic is not the death toll, it is how to end this dystopian nightmare. The answer to that is surely vaccines and the government has done a good job on that, the most important issue of all.
On average over 50,000 people die every single month in the UK normal circumstances. Over 600,000 people normally die per year in the UK in normal circumstances. For every month this pandemic drags on past the point it could be over that is an average of 50,000 people who have lost their last month of their life without seeing their family - time they will never get back.
This pandemic hasn't just cost 100,000 lives - this pandemic and the restrictions imposed will have seen about 700,000 people die in the past year who were unable to see their families, unable to live the end of their lives as normal.
Quibbling over a few thousand excess death variance is silly pointscoring nonsense. End the pandemic, give everyone their lives back and learn lessons.
100,000 excess deaths is a big deal and we need to learn the lessons. Boris is responsible and accountable for the government. The buck stops with him for better or worse.
Vaccine minister getting into a right mess on R4. Raised needing to get all over 50s done before lockdown can be properly lifted and then tried to back out of that when pressed on a date for that.
Goalposts are moving as Sunak seems to be briefing?
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
There is no single person responsible. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Is the PM responsible for the actions of Piers Corbyn and Toby Young and everyone they've influenced?
I hope we never live in a country where one person is responsible for everyone.
I want the PM - like everyone else - to take personal responsibility for his actions. Are you saying he is blameless?
No. I think he is human, I think some mistakes have been made, some things have gone very well. Lessons should be learnt and he's accepted responsibility. Responsibility doesn't mean resigning and passing the buck for dealing with your actions onto somebody else.
Quite frankly the most important thing of the pandemic is not the death toll, it is how to end this dystopian nightmare. The answer to that is surely vaccines and the government has done a good job on that, the most important issue of all.
On average over 50,000 people die every single month in the UK normal circumstances. Over 600,000 people normally die per year in the UK in normal circumstances. For every month this pandemic drags on past the point it could be over that is an average of 50,000 people who have lost their last month of their life without seeing their family - time they will never get back.
This pandemic hasn't just cost 100,000 lives - this pandemic and the restrictions imposed will have seen about 700,000 people die in the past year who were unable to see their families, unable to live the end of their lives as normal.
Quibbling over a few thousand excess death variance is silly pointscoring nonsense. End the pandemic, give everyone their lives back and learn lessons.
Alastair is right to point out that the death toll from this pernicious disease has been dreadful and the preliminary evidence is that it is slightly more dreadful here than elsewhere. That may not ultimately prove to be the case, the uncertainty with international comparisons is large, but the preliminary evidence is against us.
Why is an important question and it is not one that this piece tries to address. If we hypothesise that things went wrong what was it that went wrong?
For me, the most obvious and egregious errors relate to border control or the lack of them. Yesterday at his press conference Boris was claiming that we now had some of the toughest border controls in the world. If that had been the case a year ago tens of thousands would not have died of Covid (many of the them may well have died of other things of course).
Even yesterday Boris was explaining that this was a difficult balancing act given the need for the UK to trade, the need to import nearly half our food, the very open nature of our economy. This is undoubtedly true and these judgments are not easy but the first duty of the government is to protect its people and the likes of Grant Shapps and the airline lobby have a major responsibility. We must learn from this mistake.
Of course the government has done a lot of things well too, notably some of the economic measures and the vaccines. But I personally have no problem in recognising that serious mistakes that cost lives were made.
Most of those comments could apply to Vietnam. And they have a large land border with China. But their ruthlessness in closing borders and enforcing quarantine mean they’ve been practically unaffected.
Whether a democratic government could have got away with locking travellers up in army camps with no WiFi for two weeks is another question, but it worked for them.
...but we've vaccinated over 10,000,000 people, no other metric matters anymore. Although perhaps it should!
Alastair is consumed with his hatred of Boris and in this unbalanced piece it all flows out
I think it an excellent piece. 109,000 deaths on Johnson and Drakeford,'s watch.
Can we absolve Johnson because he got the vaccine right and yet still hang Drakeford for his hand in the death of 109,000 people? Possibly.
I am not absolving anyone and a public enquiry will follow.
However, this piece has no balance and indeed on this week, of all weeks, he makes no reference to his beloved Europe and the objectionable behaviour of their leaders which are likely to have a devastating effect on the peoples of Europe.
I do not see him calling for their resignations
Your comment has no balance, apparently skewed by your hatred of Alastair. Or perhaps idolisation of Boris.
I do not hate but Alastair has long lost all balance on Boris
And if you follow my posts you will have seen me critise Boris and I have said he is not the person for covid
You do say that some days. Other days you say anyone else criticising the PM should not be allowed to say it. Hard to keep up.
Alastair can say what he likes, as can everyone on here, but it is right to put his anti brexit anti Boris mantra into context and the unbalanced nature of his piece.
Remember, here in Wales Boris was not the First Minister and Drakeford who is has had a far worse covid crisis than Boris but no mention in the piece of the role of the devolved administrations who, whether he likes it or not, are just as involved in the outcomes as Boris
They are not just as involved even if you say it 1,000 times. Alastair does not live in Wales. He does not vote for Welsh politicians. It is unreasonable for a country to choose devolution and then expect the rest of the country, 95% of the population, to give equal attention to Welsh and Westminster politics.
Not sure I understand your argument as all the devolved administrations were involved in this and we all vote for a party at the GE to go to Westminster
I dont vote in France and know very little about their politics. Similarly I do not vote in Wales so know very little about their politics. If I post about Westminster politics you say that is unfair what about Wales? People are unsurprisingly most interested in politicians they can vote for and have influence over their lives.
Dismissing commentary about Westminster politics because it doesnt also cover Welsh politics is not valid.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
Indeed and in general the advice has followed the science. Why the scientists were saying not to use facemasks early on for instance, when they are such a relatively low-effort option to assist in preventing viral spread, is definitely a lesson we should learn.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
The only plausible reason for not recommending everyone wear facemasks back in February and March last year, would be the fear that there would be a run on them, leading to a shortage in healthcare situations where they are more effective.
But yes, it would be useful for someone to stand up now and say that was the judgement at the time.
In March no one was wearing masks and we ended up with 20,000 people in hospital. In December 99% of poeple were wearing masks and we ended up with 60,000+ cases per day and 38,000 people in hospital.
Take a step back from the "masks must work" idea and look at the actual real world results
Anyway, why isn’t everyone asking what is happening to Liverpool this season
There are too many games at present, with little recovery time. Southampton drubbing was at least partly due to the same, and Leicester has key players out too. Liverpool are suffering this way, but also rumours that Sarah and Mane have fallen out in a big way.
...but we've vaccinated over 10,000,000 people, no other metric matters anymore. Although perhaps it should!
Alastair is consumed with his hatred of Boris and in this unbalanced piece it all flows out
I think it an excellent piece. 109,000 deaths on Johnson and Drakeford,'s watch.
Can we absolve Johnson because he got the vaccine right and yet still hang Drakeford for his hand in the death of 109,000 people? Possibly.
I am not absolving anyone and a public enquiry will follow.
However, this piece has no balance and indeed on this week, of all weeks, he makes no reference to his beloved Europe and the objectionable behaviour of their leaders which are likely to have a devastating effect on the peoples of Europe.
I do not see him calling for their resignations
Your comment has no balance, apparently skewed by your hatred of Alastair. Or perhaps idolisation of Boris.
I do not hate but Alastair has long lost all balance on Boris
And if you follow my posts you will have seen me critise Boris and I have said he is not the person for covid
You do say that some days. Other days you say anyone else criticising the PM should not be allowed to say it. Hard to keep up.
Alastair can say what he likes, as can everyone on here, but it is right to put his anti brexit anti Boris mantra into context and the unbalanced nature of his piece.
Remember, here in Wales Boris was not the First Minister and Drakeford who is has had a far worse covid crisis than Boris but no mention in the piece of the role of the devolved administrations who, whether he likes it or not, are just as involved in the outcomes as Boris
Something about splinters, planks and eyes comes to mind when I read your blind defence of Johnson and vitriolic attacks on Drakeford.
There is no blind defence of Boris if you read my posts, but you have not suffered the health and education issues in Wales, as have my family, and then witnessed Drakeford's actions on covid
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss it was tantamount to shouting at the public "don't bother following the rules, this Dominic bloke you have never heard of has broken them so you don't have to either".
I don’t think it was so much that he broke the rules. What really infuriated people was the cover up. If you break quarantine, drive the length of England to lock down in a house with a garden, take a nice day out for your wife’s birthday, get caught, Force the Attorney general to rewrite the law to protect you, cause the whole government machine into overdrive in support, and then tell repeated stupid lies that are an insult to everyone’s intelligence about what happened, to keep a job you were never actually showing the least sign of competence in, then people will get angry.
If he’d said (as Richard Tyndall of this parish pointed out at the time) ‘I put my family first and to do that I broke the rules. I realise that wasn’t good enough and I resign,’ it would have been over in hours. And he’d probably be back in government by now instead of having been spectacularly sacked for a second crass failure of judgement.
Hypocrisy and a cover up. One rule for trusted government advisors another for us. Never a good look politically.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
Indeed and in general the advice has followed the science. Why the scientists were saying not to use facemasks early on for instance, when they are such a relatively low-effort option to assist in preventing viral spread, is definitely a lesson we should learn.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
The only plausible reason for not recommending everyone wear facemasks back in February and March last year, would be the fear that there would be a run on them, leading to a shortage in healthcare situations where they are more effective.
But yes, it would be useful for someone to stand up now and say that was the judgement at the time.
In March no one was wearing masks and we ended up with 20,000 people in hospital. In December 99% of poeple were wearing masks and we ended up with 60,000+ cases per day and 38,000 people in hospital.
Take a step back from the "masks must work" idea and look at the actual real world results
The only conclusion that can be drawn from this post is that Nerys is still not a fan of masks.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
Indeed and in general the advice has followed the science. Why the scientists were saying not to use facemasks early on for instance, when they are such a relatively low-effort option to assist in preventing viral spread, is definitely a lesson we should learn.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
The only plausible reason for not recommending everyone wear facemasks back in February and March last year, would be the fear that there would be a run on them, leading to a shortage in healthcare situations where they are more effective.
But yes, it would be useful for someone to stand up now and say that was the judgement at the time.
In March no one was wearing masks and we ended up with 20,000 people in hospital. In December 99% of poeple were wearing masks and we ended up with 60,000+ cases per day and 38,000 people in hospital.
Take a step back from the "masks must work" idea and look at the actual real world results
99% of people wearing masks in December is not true - and it was a different variant of virus spreading.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss it was tantamount to shouting at the public "don't bother following the rules, this Dominic bloke you have never heard of has broken them so you don't have to either".
I don’t think it was so much that he broke the rules. What really infuriated people was the cover up. If you break quarantine, drive the length of England to lock down in a house with a garden, take a nice day out for your wife’s birthday, get caught, Force the Attorney general to rewrite the law to protect you, cause the whole government machine into overdrive in support, and then tell repeated stupid lies that are an insult to everyone’s intelligence about what happened, to keep a job you were never actually showing the least sign of competence in, then people will get angry.
If he’d said (as Richard Tyndall of this parish pointed out at the time) ‘I put my family first and to do that I broke the rules. I realise that wasn’t good enough and I resign,’ it would have been over in hours. And he’d probably be back in government by now instead of having been spectacularly sacked for a second crass failure of judgement.
Hypocrisy and a cover up. One rule for trusted government advisors another for us. Never a good look politically.
Since when have politicians behaved differently?
Weapons grade whataboutery. FWIW I think most other PMs would have sacked him. The politically astute ones in any case.
Just finished Series 1. Latest viewing “The Trial of the Chicago Seven” and on iPlayer “The Investigation”. I enjoyed “The Dig” - slow, gently lyrical and a perfect antidote to a dreary February!
The Investigation is very good, but I think I prefer Bordertown. I`m convinced that the lead character is Dominic Cummings.
Best thing I have seen recently was OJ: made in America on BBC iplayer. Really excellent for several reasons. The context of the trial, the complete distrust of the LAPD, the just astonishing athletic performances of Simpson as a running back and his desire to firstly distance himself from black America and then embrace it. It really is quite brilliant TV.
It would seem that there are many on pb.com who would prefer to forget the Covid dead in favour of bashing Meeks over Brexit again.
For shame.
Choices have consequences and never has this been more obvious than with the choices made by various governments in response to Covid.
It is painful to admit that the choices of our government have lead to many tens of thousands of deaths that might otherwise have been avoided. It is easier to pretend that it was inevitable.
This approach leads only to repeating the same mistakes, as the government has done, by refusing to learn from past failures. Criticism of government is a patriotic duty to ensure high standards, but the only criticism some on pb want to see is of the Opposition.
For all their whining, Alastair’s milkshake sure brings all the BJ apologists and fawners to his yard.
Trolling has a tendency to get a response all over the internet.
Asking the people responsible for deaths to take responsibility for their actions is not "trolling". The corpses are not some piece of political theatre. They are people.
There is no single person responsible. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Is the PM responsible for the actions of Piers Corbyn and Toby Young and everyone they've influenced?
I hope we never live in a country where one person is responsible for everyone.
I want the PM - like everyone else - to take personal responsibility for his actions. Are you saying he is blameless?
No. I think he is human, I think some mistakes have been made, some things have gone very well. Lessons should be learnt and he's accepted responsibility. Responsibility doesn't mean resigning and passing the buck for dealing with your actions onto somebody else.
Quite frankly the most important thing of the pandemic is not the death toll, it is how to end this dystopian nightmare. The answer to that is surely vaccines and the government has done a good job on that, the most important issue of all.
On average over 50,000 people die every single month in the UK normal circumstances. Over 600,000 people normally die per year in the UK in normal circumstances. For every month this pandemic drags on past the point it could be over that is an average of 50,000 people who have lost their last month of their life without seeing their family - time they will never get back.
This pandemic hasn't just cost 100,000 lives - this pandemic and the restrictions imposed will have seen about 700,000 people die in the past year who were unable to see their families, unable to live the end of their lives as normal.
Quibbling over a few thousand excess death variance is silly pointscoring nonsense. End the pandemic, give everyone their lives back and learn lessons.
Wow
What part of that do you disagree with?
By the time this is over we could have seen over a million people spending the end of their lives locked away from their family, locked away from living.
That is every bit as much a tragedy as the excess deaths. Ending the pandemic 3 months earlier due to a successful vaccine rollout lets 150,000 people live some of their life with their family etc before they die.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
How is it not Boris's fault? How does the Prime Minister of the UK get magically absolved of leadership responsibilities?
There would always have been a minority of people not complying. And the system should have warned them that they would be dealt with harshly. Had the government issued the kind of clear, unambiguous warnings that pretty much every other western country managed then our death toll would have been a lot lower.
Its frankly shameful - to you - that you are working so hard this morning to wave your team's scarf and insist that they have no responsibility.
I thought you called yourself a Liberal now?
Governments wherever possible should give advice and let people decide for themselves - and the public needs to take responsibility for their own actions too which can have consequences for others, it isn't on the PM of the day to make all our decisions for us.
Indeed - we are not automatons. But we do not exist entirely independently of each other. My liberty to make my own choices does not allow me to take a dump in next door's garden - there are laws and societal norms that bind us.
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
Indeed and in general the advice has followed the science. Why the scientists were saying not to use facemasks early on for instance, when they are such a relatively low-effort option to assist in preventing viral spread, is definitely a lesson we should learn.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
The only plausible reason for not recommending everyone wear facemasks back in February and March last year, would be the fear that there would be a run on them, leading to a shortage in healthcare situations where they are more effective.
But yes, it would be useful for someone to stand up now and say that was the judgement at the time.
In March no one was wearing masks and we ended up with 20,000 people in hospital. In December 99% of poeple were wearing masks and we ended up with 60,000+ cases per day and 38,000 people in hospital.
Take a step back from the "masks must work" idea and look at the actual real world results
In 1921 there were no antiretroviral drugs and no one died of HIV. In 2021 we have lots of antiretroviral drugs and 1 million deaths a year of HIV. Can you tell us what conclusions you draw from these real world results?
Alastair is right to point out that the death toll from this pernicious disease has been dreadful and the preliminary evidence is that it is slightly more dreadful here than elsewhere. That may not ultimately prove to be the case, the uncertainty with international comparisons is large, but the preliminary evidence is against us.
Why is an important question and it is not one that this piece tries to address. If we hypothesise that things went wrong what was it that went wrong?
For me, the most obvious and egregious errors relate to border control or the lack of them. Yesterday at his press conference Boris was claiming that we now had some of the toughest border controls in the world. If that had been the case a year ago tens of thousands would not have died of Covid (many of the them may well have died of other things of course).
Even yesterday Boris was explaining that this was a difficult balancing act given the need for the UK to trade, the need to import nearly half our food, the very open nature of our economy. This is undoubtedly true and these judgments are not easy but the first duty of the government is to protect its people and the likes of Grant Shapps and the airline lobby have a major responsibility. We must learn from this mistake.
Of course the government has done a lot of things well too, notably some of the economic measures and the vaccines. But I personally have no problem in recognising that serious mistakes that cost lives were made.
Most of those comments could apply to Vietnam. And they have a large land border with China. But their ruthlessness in closing borders and enforcing quarantine mean they’ve been practically unaffected.
Whether a democratic government could have got away with locking travellers up in army camps with no WiFi for two weeks is another question, but it worked for them.
A year ago was probably the time to close borders. Whether there would have been any appetite for it on 4 February 2020 I don't know.
PB Tories whataboutery re vaccines does not absolve this Government from its disgraceful performance.
I'm not a tory and 'disgraceful performance' are words best reserved for the EU on vaccines. You can't absolve the British public from blame, although lefties are trying. I STILL see loads of people in shops, on public transport and indoor spaces without face masks. In some parts face mask wearing seems under 50%. Parties and meet-ups are still taking place and people are still socialising and travelling for pleasure. That is NOT Boris' fault.
You don’t think Boris’s refusal to sack his sidekick when he was caught flouting the rules has contributed to the problem?
I think the fuss made about someone breaking the rules contributed to the problem. Other politicians did similar without quite the same fuss it was tantamount to shouting at the public "don't bother following the rules, this Dominic bloke you have never heard of has broken them so you don't have to either".
I don’t think it was so much that he broke the rules. What really infuriated people was the cover up. If you break quarantine, drive the length of England to lock down in a house with a garden, take a nice day out for your wife’s birthday, get caught, Force the Attorney general to rewrite the law to protect you, cause the whole government machine into overdrive in support, and then tell repeated stupid lies that are an insult to everyone’s intelligence about what happened, to keep a job you were never actually showing the least sign of competence in, then people will get angry.
If he’d said (as Richard Tyndall of this parish pointed out at the time) ‘I put my family first and to do that I broke the rules. I realise that wasn’t good enough and I resign,’ it would have been over in hours. And he’d probably be back in government by now instead of having been spectacularly sacked for a second crass failure of judgement.
Hypocrisy and a cover up. One rule for trusted government advisors another for us. Never a good look politically.
Since when have politicians behaved differently?
Weapons grade whataboutery. FWIW I think most other PMs would have sacked him. The politically astute ones in any case.
Alistair Campbell would have had him out in 24 hours.
Now there was a PM who didn’t mess about.
What was the name of his stooge? Something weird like Pear.
Alastair is right to point out that the death toll from this pernicious disease has been dreadful and the preliminary evidence is that it is slightly more dreadful here than elsewhere. That may not ultimately prove to be the case, the uncertainty with international comparisons is large, but the preliminary evidence is against us.
Why is an important question and it is not one that this piece tries to address. If we hypothesise that things went wrong what was it that went wrong?
For me, the most obvious and egregious errors relate to border control or the lack of them. Yesterday at his press conference Boris was claiming that we now had some of the toughest border controls in the world. If that had been the case a year ago tens of thousands would not have died of Covid (many of the them may well have died of other things of course).
Even yesterday Boris was explaining that this was a difficult balancing act given the need for the UK to trade, the need to import nearly half our food, the very open nature of our economy. This is undoubtedly true and these judgments are not easy but the first duty of the government is to protect its people and the likes of Grant Shapps and the airline lobby have a major responsibility. We must learn from this mistake.
Of course the government has done a lot of things well too, notably some of the economic measures and the vaccines. But I personally have no problem in recognising that serious mistakes that cost lives were made.
Most of those comments could apply to Vietnam. And they have a large land border with China. But their ruthlessness in closing borders and enforcing quarantine mean they’ve been practically unaffected.
Whether a democratic government could have got away with locking travellers up in army camps with no WiFi for two weeks is another question, but it worked for them.
A year ago was probably the time to close borders. Whether there would have been any appetite for it on 4 February 2020 I don't know.
If the choice had been close pubs, tourist attractions and schools or close borders, I think people would have taken it.
And that was the choice, and it’s a choice that’s only become starker with hindsight.
Politicalbetting is an excellent site and I have enjoyed coming here (and very occasionally posting) over the past 15 years. The insight on the future being the main reason.
But this post is the last straw. I am no fan of Boris but this has nothing to do with political betting and is just pure political vitriol that I can go and read on the Canary if I want to.
Good to luck to OGH and all of you but I vote with my feet.
I feel the same.
I like this site for mostly good debate on threads that, certainly in Mike's case, are invariably betting related.
This has bugger all to do with betting. It's just bile from an embittered man who lost on Brexit.
Sort it out OGH or your regulars will depart this site.
Your vitriol towards Alastair is just tedious. The jingoism that you and others have exhibited in the last few weeks in the face of 108,000 dead is frankly sick making. Mike runs a great and varied site. I suspect there are many which specialise in eulogies to Boris Johnson. Go find your metier
Just finished Series 1. Latest viewing “The Trial of the Chicago Seven” and on iPlayer “The Investigation”. I enjoyed “The Dig” - slow, gently lyrical and a perfect antidote to a dreary February!
The Investigation is very good, but I think I prefer Bordertown. I`m convinced that the lead character is Dominic Cummings.
Best thing I have seen recently was OJ: made in America on BBC iplayer. Really excellent for several reasons. The context of the trial, the complete distrust of the LAPD, the just astonishing athletic performances of Simpson as a running back and his desire to firstly distance himself from black America and then embrace it. It really is quite brilliant TV.
Absolutely agree. You`re a bit late to the party though, I watched OJ: made in America ages ago. One of the best things I`ve seen. Making a Murderer is awesome TV too.
Also, on true crime: take a look at Piers Morgan`s Netflix show "Killer Women". Morgan can be unbearable (obvs) but in this he is surprisingly very good and the cases are very troubling. A different case every week. The US system is a disgrace. I have sympathy with the convicted women in almost every case. I`m not sure that is what the programme-makers intended.
In the end, outside the West Pacific rim, I think handling the pandemic will be pretty much a wash between countries in terms of mortality and economic hit. The European countries will be awash with vaccines too by the end of Q2. The Americans will bounce back more quickly economically etc.
No one is a winner.
We disagree on most things but maybe you should write a header. I agree and think these internatiinal comparisons on case numbers and deaths etc are very difficult - huge number of variables even before we consider the accuracy of reporting, the definitions , etc. Hugely difficult and complex. I take a similar view wrt border closures - the UK for good or ill is a destiunation in huge demand and the logistics of closure plus enforced quarantine must be fiendishly difficult to implement and enforce. At the end of the day we are not like Iceland or NZ/Australia. The scale is very different. I'm not clear either that it would achieve the stated objective. On the header - it is what it is - my policy is not to read to the end unless it grips. This didn't. So skipped. No big deal.
What a ghastly article. Perfectly possible to criticise the Government handling of this with without taking such obvious grim joy in the deaths of 100,000 people. Yuck.
Alastair can say what he likes, as can everyone on here, but it is right to put his anti brexit anti Boris mantra into context and the unbalanced nature of his piece.
There's no rule that contributions have to be balanced.
You're free to submit a Johnson hagiography if you want redress.
Alastair is right to point out that the death toll from this pernicious disease has been dreadful and the preliminary evidence is that it is slightly more dreadful here than elsewhere. That may not ultimately prove to be the case, the uncertainty with international comparisons is large, but the preliminary evidence is against us.
Why is an important question and it is not one that this piece tries to address. If we hypothesise that things went wrong what was it that went wrong?
For me, the most obvious and egregious errors relate to border control or the lack of them. Yesterday at his press conference Boris was claiming that we now had some of the toughest border controls in the world. If that had been the case a year ago tens of thousands would not have died of Covid (many of the them may well have died of other things of course).
Even yesterday Boris was explaining that this was a difficult balancing act given the need for the UK to trade, the need to import nearly half our food, the very open nature of our economy. This is undoubtedly true and these judgments are not easy but the first duty of the government is to protect its people and the likes of Grant Shapps and the airline lobby have a major responsibility. We must learn from this mistake.
Of course the government has done a lot of things well too, notably some of the economic measures and the vaccines. But I personally have no problem in recognising that serious mistakes that cost lives were made.
Most of those comments could apply to Vietnam. And they have a large land border with China. But their ruthlessness in closing borders and enforcing quarantine mean they’ve been practically unaffected.
Whether a democratic government could have got away with locking travellers up in army camps with no WiFi for two weeks is another question, but it worked for them.
New Zealand and Australia are better comparators albeit they have a considerable advantage in distance over us.
I cannot help feeling that class had a lot to do with this. Rules may be appropriate for the little people going to Spain for their drunken breaks but a professional and important man needs to ski, needs to go on oh so important business trips, rules are not for the likes of us. The result was a liberal scattering of Covid into our communities in an almost random fashion that proved extremely hard to control plus some new variants on top. And death, lots of death.
Alastair can say what he likes, as can everyone on here, but it is right to put his anti brexit anti Boris mantra into context and the unbalanced nature of his piece.
There's no rule that contributions have to be balanced.
You're free to submit a Johnson hagiography if you want redress.
He’s already doing that via the medium of several thousand posts. Can’t wait for the next instalment.
Alastair is right to point out that the death toll from this pernicious disease has been dreadful and the preliminary evidence is that it is slightly more dreadful here than elsewhere. That may not ultimately prove to be the case, the uncertainty with international comparisons is large, but the preliminary evidence is against us.
Why is an important question and it is not one that this piece tries to address. If we hypothesise that things went wrong what was it that went wrong?
For me, the most obvious and egregious errors relate to border control or the lack of them. Yesterday at his press conference Boris was claiming that we now had some of the toughest border controls in the world. If that had been the case a year ago tens of thousands would not have died of Covid (many of the them may well have died of other things of course).
Even yesterday Boris was explaining that this was a difficult balancing act given the need for the UK to trade, the need to import nearly half our food, the very open nature of our economy. This is undoubtedly true and these judgments are not easy but the first duty of the government is to protect its people and the likes of Grant Shapps and the airline lobby have a major responsibility. We must learn from this mistake.
Of course the government has done a lot of things well too, notably some of the economic measures and the vaccines. But I personally have no problem in recognising that serious mistakes that cost lives were made.
Most of those comments could apply to Vietnam. And they have a large land border with China. But their ruthlessness in closing borders and enforcing quarantine mean they’ve been practically unaffected.
Whether a democratic government could have got away with locking travellers up in army camps with no WiFi for two weeks is another question, but it worked for them.
New Zealand and Australia are better comparators albeit they have a considerable advantage in distance over us.
I cannot help feeling that class had a lot to do with this. Rules may be appropriate for the little people going to Spain for their drunken breaks but a professional and important man needs to ski, needs to go on oh so important business trips, rules are not for the likes of us. The result was a liberal scattering of Covid into our communities in an almost random fashion that proved extremely hard to control plus some new variants on top. And death, lots of death.
Well, there’s a further irony to that. The last two winters have seen the best skiing conditions in Scotland for 20 years.
Comments
When this is all done, there will be comparisons to be made about which healthcare systems worked best and which were overrun, which policy choices made early helped the containment and which helped the spread of the virus. IMO trying to understand what works and what doesn't, is way more important than trying to make base political points, against politicians who had no training for this type of emergency.
Comparisons about vaccination numbers are definitely fair game though. The number of people vaccinated in each country is almost entirely down to policy choices made by governments. People everywhere should be shouting at their governments about vaccines - they're the only way this crisis is going to go away.
1. What went wrong. How did the UK get it so badly wrong compared to so many others
2. What we do differently in the next pandemic. As well as "don't do that" from point 1 there will also be a deconstruction of the successful clinical trials and vaccination programme so that we can go even faster in future.
We can't avoid this. You can't have 150k dead and expect the people in charge to not answer questions. Forget the politics and look at the death toll - its basic level responsibility to understand what happened as it would be after a train or plane crash, a disaster like Grenfell etc etc. We don't skip this critical stage because its politicians in the frame.
I've left the boat. I couldn't even be arsed to wear a poppy last year and it felt good. I chucked a fiver in the poppy tin at my local Coop, but didn't pick up a poppy. That's how I'm rolling from now on.
https://www.politico.eu/article/government-coronavirus-response-germany-us-poll-pew-research-center/
James Justin for the England squad for example. 9/2 at present. Just as Leicester sold our third best centre back for a fortune, so did we with our second best left back. Arguably the third...
Responsibility for one person's action is with that person. But when there are millions all doing the same irresponsible dangerous thing that has been at least tacitly encouraged by the government?
Its like debt. If the bank loans me a load of money I can't repay, that's my problem. If the bank loans a million people a load of money that we can't repay, that's the bank's problem. Every individual needs to consider their own actions. But when they are openly encouraged to do something bad, whether that be take out a homeowner loan with Ocean Finance or take a jolly to Barnard Castle, you have to broaden the responsibility.
I think Alastair also used to point out that the people weren't keen on coming out to play back when the government was talking about getting things back to normal last summer. Well, I think that's been proven wrong. Sure, people didn't want to go back to the office, but they happily went shopping and to the pub.
That's not to blame the people rather than the government, but I do think it's part of the equation. A lot of us weren't prepared to make sacrifices unless under strict instruction, and I think deep down that's why the government is being given the benefit of the doubt.
Oh yeah, and vaccines. They matter, because they offer hope for the future. It's hard to compare cost of lives and cost of life, but the latter it is perhaps more pertinent because it's felt by people who are still alive and can vote.
Going into a review wanting to learn lessons so we can do better next time - or going into it wanting someone's scalp - which of those is more productive?
Is the PM responsible for the actions of Piers Corbyn and Toby Young and everyone they've influenced?
I hope we never live in a country where one person is responsible for everyone.
The best responses are numerous posts from folk saying they’re being censored and that they’re going to leave cos they don’t like what they’re reading. Snowflake nation...
But yes, it would be useful for someone to stand up now and say that was the judgement at the time.
Being shit in the first half and letting 100k die, over 25% of whom were in the last month, over a thousand a day, was not a prerequisite of having a great vaccine roll out now.
No one is a winner.
Pretty much everywhere else in the world is suffering a harsh recession and a rising toll of sickness and death. There's only going to be different levels of bad.
We used to have a country where people took personal responsibility for their actions. Literally what you arguing for. So how about the PM and various Secretaries of State doing what you implore and taking ownership of their behaviour?
(PS, you mean ‘fatalities’ not ‘accidents.’)
Edit - 1580 for the year to June 2020, so a fall, but it will be interesting to see if that is sustained for the next twelve month period.
Is there a lack of criticism of China from the UK-bashers? Wet markets?
Don't think 2020 figures are available yet but I imagine they must be down substantially.
https://twitter.com/KieranCHodgson/status/1357230902892503046?s=20
If he’d said (as Richard Tyndall of this parish pointed out at the time) ‘I put my family first and to do that I broke the rules. I realise that wasn’t good enough and I resign,’ it would have been over in hours. And he’d probably be back in government by now instead of having been spectacularly sacked for a second crass failure of judgement.
Some very weird football results this season and the end of last, didn't someone (@isam?) work out that the notion of home advantage had actually turned slightly negative without crowds present?
You seen Bordertown?
Remember, here in Wales Boris was not the First Minister and Drakeford who is has had a far worse covid crisis than Boris but no mention in the piece of the role of the devolved administrations who, whether he likes it or not, are just as involved in the outcomes as Boris
Liverpool struggling is not newsworthy, that’s normal. It was last year that was unusual.
Quite frankly the most important thing of the pandemic is not the death toll, it is how to end this dystopian nightmare. The answer to that is surely vaccines and the government has done a good job on that, the most important issue of all.
On average over 50,000 people die every single month in the UK normal circumstances. Over 600,000 people normally die per year in the UK in normal circumstances. For every month this pandemic drags on past the point it could be over that is an average of 50,000 people who have lost their last month of their life without seeing their family - time they will never get back.
This pandemic hasn't just cost 100,000 lives - this pandemic and the restrictions imposed will have seen about 700,000 people die in the past year who were unable to see their families, unable to live the end of their lives as normal.
Quibbling over a few thousand excess death variance is silly pointscoring nonsense. End the pandemic, give everyone their lives back and learn lessons.
Opening the schools - despite lots of relevant people calling for you not to - on a Monday, so that children could share their infections, then caving in and closing them on a Tuesday was another classic.
As was threatening a council with legal action for wanting to move its schools to remote learning one week, then closing those schools by law a week later.
Why is an important question and it is not one that this piece tries to address. If we hypothesise that things went wrong what was it that went wrong?
For me, the most obvious and egregious errors relate to border control or the lack of them. Yesterday at his press conference Boris was claiming that we now had some of the toughest border controls in the world. If that had been the case a year ago tens of thousands would not have died of Covid (many of the them may well have died of other things of course).
Even yesterday Boris was explaining that this was a difficult balancing act given the need for the UK to trade, the need to import nearly half our food, the very open nature of our economy. This is undoubtedly true and these judgments are not easy but the first duty of the government is to protect its people and the likes of Grant Shapps and the airline lobby have a major responsibility. We must learn from this mistake.
Of course the government has done a lot of things well too, notably some of the economic measures and the vaccines. But I personally have no problem in recognising that serious mistakes that cost lives were made.
Liverpool had been building up to last year for a while, but definitely seem to have lost their way a little now they've got the trophy in the cabinet.
Goalposts are moving as Sunak seems to be briefing?
Whether a democratic government could have got away with locking travellers up in army camps with no WiFi for two weeks is another question, but it worked for them.
Dismissing commentary about Westminster politics because it doesnt also cover Welsh politics is not valid.
Take a step back from the "masks must work" idea and look at the actual real world results
For shame.
Choices have consequences and never has this been more obvious than with the choices made by various governments in response to Covid.
It is painful to admit that the choices of our government have lead to many tens of thousands of deaths that might otherwise have been avoided. It is easier to pretend that it was inevitable.
This approach leads only to repeating the same mistakes, as the government has done, by refusing to learn from past failures. Criticism of government is a patriotic duty to ensure high standards, but the only criticism some on pb want to see is of the Opposition.
By the time this is over we could have seen over a million people spending the end of their lives locked away from their family, locked away from living.
That is every bit as much a tragedy as the excess deaths. Ending the pandemic 3 months earlier due to a successful vaccine rollout lets 150,000 people live some of their life with their family etc before they die.
Now there was a PM who didn’t mess about.
What was the name of his stooge? Something weird like Pear.
And that was the choice, and it’s a choice that’s only become starker with hindsight.
Also, on true crime: take a look at Piers Morgan`s Netflix show "Killer Women". Morgan can be unbearable (obvs) but in this he is surprisingly very good and the cases are very troubling. A different case every week. The US system is a disgrace. I have sympathy with the convicted women in almost every case. I`m not sure that is what the programme-makers intended.
You're free to submit a Johnson hagiography if you want redress.
I cannot help feeling that class had a lot to do with this. Rules may be appropriate for the little people going to Spain for their drunken breaks but a professional and important man needs to ski, needs to go on oh so important business trips, rules are not for the likes of us. The result was a liberal scattering of Covid into our communities in an almost random fashion that proved extremely hard to control plus some new variants on top. And death, lots of death.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-55903349
So nobody would have needed to go to Schladming to ski...