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Next week’s Trump impeachment vote: Which way will McConnell vote? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Charles said:

    It's really desperate stuff coming out of the EU. Beyond unacceptable.

    There appear to be no sane voices left over there able to say "Serioulsy guys - you are looking profoundly foolish. Each utterance is proving so counter-productive. STFU."

    I know you are a professional environmentalist. Has your second paragraph been recycled? It could easily have been written about any number of PB Brexiteers towards the end of last year. If so, good work!
    I just think Europe these days is missing the people of the stature of a Brandt or a Chirac, who could "have a quiet word" in the situation the EU big-wigs have faced this past week.
    A very fair comment. Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Schmidt also spring to mind.
    True, but perhaps not unique to the other side of the Channel. Which elder statesman would parties or partisans in the UK listen to with respect?
    Blair, Major, Clarke, Benn
    Excellent suggestions, but they highlight the problem, really. How many current Conservatives would give Major or Clarke the time of day? How many nanoseconds positive attention did Corbyn-Labour give Blair or Benn? (The new leadership, I don't know.)
  • MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    Oxford vaccine could substantially cut spread
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55910964
    The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine could lead to a "substantial" fall in the spread of the virus, say scientists.
    The impact of Covid vaccines on transmission has been a crucial unknown that will dramatically shape the future of the pandemic.
    The study, which has not been formally published, also showed the vaccine remained effective while people waited for a second dose.
    It was 76% effective during the three months after the first shot.
    ...

    This is surely the news of the day, but to read MSM sites you would not know this.
    It's the second item on BBC News after Captain Tom.
    Am I correct that this only covers up to age 55?

    (which may not unfruitloop Pres. Macron)

    Has anyone read all 37 pages?
    I've skimmed it. Looks to me that the over 55s are included in that figure of 76% VE.

  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    What a load of shite from Trevor Sinclair.

    https://twitter.com/trevor8sinclair/status/1356588060939534337

    Liverpool v. Man City might have been the most important matches over recent seasons but the matches I look forward to when the fixtures are released are against United and Everton.

    Of course United are the matches you most look forward to.

    A guaranteed six points.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Dirty dirty Arsenal, they are the new Leeds.

    https://twitter.com/Matt_Furniss/status/1356694302982873088

    Yeah, but red cards are the new yellow cards. You get them for anything these days.
    Indeed.

    The stat about Gary Lineker never getting even a yellow card in his entire career for club and country seems really hard to image for a major player nowadays. Not getting a red card in your career would be rather surprising nowadays it seems.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    Dirty dirty Arsenal, they are the new Leeds.

    https://twitter.com/Matt_Furniss/status/1356694302982873088

    What a spectacularly convoluted sentence
  • Mrs Govey unwittingly revealing the plan to save the Union.

    https://twitter.com/westminsterwag/status/1356186642327990273?s=21

    Yep. Keep right at it girls. That's the way to save the union.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Charles said:

    It's really desperate stuff coming out of the EU. Beyond unacceptable.

    There appear to be no sane voices left over there able to say "Serioulsy guys - you are looking profoundly foolish. Each utterance is proving so counter-productive. STFU."

    I know you are a professional environmentalist. Has your second paragraph been recycled? It could easily have been written about any number of PB Brexiteers towards the end of last year. If so, good work!
    I just think Europe these days is missing the people of the stature of a Brandt or a Chirac, who could "have a quiet word" in the situation the EU big-wigs have faced this past week.
    A very fair comment. Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Schmidt also spring to mind.
    True, but perhaps not unique to the other side of the Channel. Which elder statesman would parties or partisans in the UK listen to with respect?
    Blair, Major, Clarke, Benn
    Excellent suggestions, but they highlight the problem, really. How many current Conservatives would give Major or Clarke the time of day? How many nanoseconds positive attention did Corbyn-Labour give Blair or Benn? (The new leadership, I don't know.)
    Wrong way round, now. Major is big with the left* for doing way more than Corbyn to try and stop Brexit, and Blair is viewed by Conservatives as a masterclass** in how to win big with centrist voters.

    *Not really
    **Also not really
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Roger said:

    What a load of shite from Trevor Sinclair.

    https://twitter.com/trevor8sinclair/status/1356588060939534337

    Liverpool v. Man City might have been the most important matches over recent seasons but the matches I look forward to when the fixtures are released are against United and Everton.

    Of course United are the matches you most look forward to.

    A guaranteed six points.
    Actually boring 0-0 draws have been the most common result of late.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,240
    Roger said:

    Dirty dirty Arsenal, they are the new Leeds.

    https://twitter.com/Matt_Furniss/status/1356694302982873088

    What a spectacularly convoluted sentence
    That should be a semicolon. Tut.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    What a load of shite from Trevor Sinclair.

    https://twitter.com/trevor8sinclair/status/1356588060939534337

    Liverpool v. Man City might have been the most important matches over recent seasons but the matches I look forward to when the fixtures are released are against United and Everton.

    Of course United are the matches you most look forward to.

    A guaranteed six points.
    Actually boring 0-0 draws have been the most common result of late.
    Not tonight though.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    For balance. What is this? It doesn't look good

    https://twitter.com/runnermandoc/status/1356337026757492738?s=20

    I don't know. Why don't you ask him. He's on Twitter. Must be authoritative.
    In this case, he is quite authoritative. See his Twitter bio

    "Consultant Geriatrician Tameside & Glossop, Former NHS National Clinical Director|Clinical Advisor Manchester & London|Leader"

    Dismissing an opinion, just because it is worrying, or "on Twitter", is daft
    Some care home workers have declined to be jabbed.

    Isn't the vaccine meant to prevent serious infection, rather than any infection?

    The whole point is that people do not pass away or need to be hospitalised.
    I'd love some more details on whether these outbreaks are in care homes that have had 100% of the staff jabbed - or conversely, if a material number have refused it.
    Whatever side of the debate you are on, some of the reporting in the MSM is a complete disgrace. Some of the very good news on transmissability is being completely ignored in favour of fear porn. Some of it spread about SAGE members. Or independent SAGE members.
    "Independent SAGE" are a disgrace. Nothing to do with SAGE and instead extremists with an agenda to push.
    A colleague was invited to join Independent SAGE (he thinks someone he worked with on a paper a while back misinterpreted him having a whinge about lockdown policies). Fair to say he wasn't tempted, just a bit nonplussed, not even his field really. He commented that "Independent SAGE is to SAGE as alternative medicine is to medicine".
    I cannot think of a good reason they gave themselves a name that could cause people to be confused with the official SAGE. What other purpose could that serve other than confusion, when another name could be used?
    They intended, in their arrogance, that they should be granted the same authority as SAGE
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Nigelb said:

    The Pope proves the truth of my law that analogies are not illuminating...

    https://twitter.com/geofflemon/status/1253128901670256640

    Do we think, bored of an evening in the Vatican, His Holiness drops in here to stir some shit?

    If so - who?

    @Leon ?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Dirty dirty Arsenal, they are the new Leeds.

    https://twitter.com/Matt_Furniss/status/1356694302982873088

    Yeah, but red cards are the new yellow cards. You get them for anything these days.
    Indeed.

    The stat about Gary Lineker never getting even a yellow card in his entire career for club and country seems really hard to image for a major player nowadays. Not getting a red card in your career would be rather surprising nowadays it seems.
    Some have claimed that Gaz deserved one or two for diving over the years.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    That sounds reasonable, but the EU figure is likely to vary quite a bit by country. In particular, the French question is heavily dependent on takeup - I think we've seen estimates that as many as two thirds of Frenchmen would refuse it? If so, they reach herd immunity approximately never.

    Another possible unknown is what kind of state the Portuguese health service is in by the time the current wave is under control, and how long it'll then take to move into top gear on vaccines.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    rcs1000 said:

    Dirty dirty Arsenal, they are the new Leeds.

    https://twitter.com/Matt_Furniss/status/1356694302982873088

    Yeah, but red cards are the new yellow cards. You get them for anything these days.
    Indeed.

    The stat about Gary Lineker never getting even a yellow card in his entire career for club and country seems really hard to image for a major player nowadays. Not getting a red card in your career would be rather surprising nowadays it seems.
    Didn’t Lineker get one yellow right towards the end of his career? I dunno, I seem to remember that.

    (Still an astounding stat)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    55% of Scots and a majority of Labour voters voted to stay in the UK in 2014, SLab also need Tory tactical votes to beat the SNP.

    They are never going to win back Nat, UK haters like you
    55% of Scots did NOT vote to stay in the UK. You're making it up. Changing the facts. And in any case missing the point. I am talking about the substantial minority (third) of Labour voters hwo didn't vote for the Union Flag in 2014. I've not seen any discussion of that.

    2014 result was:

    No 55%
    Yes 45%
    Of those who were (a) entitled and (b) actually voted and (c) didn't spoil the ballot. Not all Scots.
    The biggest change will not be the non-voters, as the turnout was very high in 2014, it will be on generational turnover. By the time of Sindyref, 7 years minimum will have passed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    55% of Scots and a majority of Labour voters voted to stay in the UK in 2014, SLab also need Tory tactical votes to beat the SNP.

    They are never going to win back Nat, UK haters like you
    55% of Scots did NOT vote to stay in the UK. You're making it up. Changing the facts. And in any case missing the point. I am talking about the substantial minority (third) of Labour voters hwo didn't vote for the Union Flag in 2014. I've not seen any discussion of that.

    HYUFD’s timing in pinning his hopes on SLab looks immaculate.

    https://twitter.com/paauul/status/1356703200766738432?s=21
    Couldn’t SLab just fly/sit in front of St Andrew’s Crosses north of the border?
    They're never going to out-saltire the SNP, so I don't blame them for not trying to do so. I also don't blame them for not censoring the Union flag - to be honest, anyone who is incensed by the Union flag (and there are plenty here) are not going to vote Labour, unless they turn themselves into the SNP's poodle/repository of tactical votes as the Greens have done. Let's see how their new leader (whoever it is) does.

    Not a leader, but a poodle. He/she can't deviate from the London line, that's the problem for them. But yes, I don't know how they resolve the problem of trying to out-Britnat the Tories, while finding the SNP sitting oin their progressive policies and home rule.
    I am not massively optimistic for the Scottish Labour Party. I am optimistic that the SNP are going to rip themselves into tagliatelle, I'm just not sure that Scottish Labour are positioning themselves right to be the beneficiaries.
    The infighting in the SNP is bonkers, and damaging. Much as they hate each others guts though, both factions are keen on independence. It is just matters of personality and tactics.
    And ego and position and money with just a smidgeon of genuine hatred. As a Scot I have rather despaired of getting stuck in a one party state but its just possible the SNP can come up with a solution when the opposition parties have failed.
  • It's really desperate stuff coming out of the EU. Beyond unacceptable.

    There appear to be no sane voices left over there able to say "Serioulsy guys - you are looking profoundly foolish. Each utterance is proving so counter-productive. STFU."

    I know you are a professional environmentalist. Has your second paragraph been recycled? It could easily have been written about any number of PB Brexiteers towards the end of last year. If so, good work!
    I just think Europe these days is missing the people of the stature of a Brandt or a Chirac, who could "have a quiet word" in the situation the EU big-wigs have faced this past week.
    A very fair comment. Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Schmidt also spring to mind.
    True, but perhaps not unique to the other side of the Channel. Which elder statesman would parties or partisans in the UK listen to with respect?
    A good question. Looking back at previous Prime Ministers, maybe Brown and Major, certainly not Blair or Cameron, both of whom have enormous credibility questions to answer. Although I have noticed since the demise of Corbyn, Blair's reputation seems to be undergoing a very minor revival.

    Of Leaders of the Opposition, perhaps Hague, Howard or even Milliband. Although Howard was not my cup of tea, as a moderate Brexiteer, maybe he cuts through to both sides of the divide more than others.
    Hague's a good spot. Ed M is arguably following in his footsteps- hopeless leaders at wrong times, but both had/have more to give.
    Howard can cut through- heck, he tried over the IM Bill. Didn't work though, which illustrates the problem. My hunch is that the political machine is so good at shredding reputations now that the current generation can ignore the warnings of their elders.

    If you want to cut off any previous PM, it's too easy;
    Major: Black Wednesday
    Blair: Iraq
    Brown: Gold
    Cameron: Referendum
    May: (where to begin?)
    It's too easy, and saves you the trouble of thinking whether their warnings carry any weight.

    Which is another argument for having someone whose entire job is to whisper in the PM's ear "remember you too are mortal."
    You could be right, although Black Wednesday was a long time ago, and no one except PB Historians remember Brown swapping the gold reserves for magic beans.

    I was looking at Heseltine, Clarke and Patton, but dismissed them all as Brexit (not Brexiteer!) bad guys. So in today's climate I struggle to find a name that makes the cut.

    As to your "remember you too are mortal" , it happened to Thatcher, but Johnson (and I don't understand how he does it) seems to defy gravity.
    With Brown it was either the election that never was, or Gillian Duffy. Take your pick.
    I don't think they were anything more than party politically strategic errors. If Brown has an Archilles heel it is gold.
    Gold was only an issue in hindsight. You can see that with the aid of this handy 30-year gold price chart. The price had been static or declining for years and only shot up years after the sale.
    https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/30-year-gold-price-history-in-uk-pounds-per-ounce

    The issue for which Brown should be pilloried is PFI.
    Brown kept us out of the Euro.

    Must be right up there with the most important economic decisions made since the War.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380

    It's really desperate stuff coming out of the EU. Beyond unacceptable.

    There appear to be no sane voices left over there able to say "Serioulsy guys - you are looking profoundly foolish. Each utterance is proving so counter-productive. STFU."

    I know you are a professional environmentalist. Has your second paragraph been recycled? It could easily have been written about any number of PB Brexiteers towards the end of last year. If so, good work!
    I just think Europe these days is missing the people of the stature of a Brandt or a Chirac, who could "have a quiet word" in the situation the EU big-wigs have faced this past week.
    A very fair comment. Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Schmidt also spring to mind.
    True, but perhaps not unique to the other side of the Channel. Which elder statesman would parties or partisans in the UK listen to with respect?
    A good question. Looking back at previous Prime Ministers, maybe Brown and Major, certainly not Blair or Cameron, both of whom have enormous credibility questions to answer. Although I have noticed since the demise of Corbyn, Blair's reputation seems to be undergoing a very minor revival.

    Of Leaders of the Opposition, perhaps Hague, Howard or even Milliband. Although Howard was not my cup of tea, as a moderate Brexiteer, maybe he cuts through to both sides of the divide more than others.
    Hague's a good spot. Ed M is arguably following in his footsteps- hopeless leaders at wrong times, but both had/have more to give.
    Howard can cut through- heck, he tried over the IM Bill. Didn't work though, which illustrates the problem. My hunch is that the political machine is so good at shredding reputations now that the current generation can ignore the warnings of their elders.

    If you want to cut off any previous PM, it's too easy;
    Major: Black Wednesday
    Blair: Iraq
    Brown: Gold
    Cameron: Referendum
    May: (where to begin?)
    It's too easy, and saves you the trouble of thinking whether their warnings carry any weight.

    Which is another argument for having someone whose entire job is to whisper in the PM's ear "remember you too are mortal."
    You could be right, although Black Wednesday was a long time ago, and no one except PB Historians remember Brown swapping the gold reserves for magic beans.

    I was looking at Heseltine, Clarke and Patton, but dismissed them all as Brexit (not Brexiteer!) bad guys. So in today's climate I struggle to find a name that makes the cut.

    As to your "remember you too are mortal" , it happened to Thatcher, but Johnson (and I don't understand how he does it) seems to defy gravity.
    With Brown it was either the election that never was, or Gillian Duffy. Take your pick.
    I don't think they were anything more than party politically strategic errors. If Brown has an Archilles heel it is gold.
    Gold was only an issue in hindsight. You can see that with the aid of this handy 30-year gold price chart. The price had been static or declining for years and only shot up years after the sale.
    https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/30-year-gold-price-history-in-uk-pounds-per-ounce

    The issue for which Brown should be pilloried is PFI.
    True on both counts. The gold issue is the one Tories like to hang on him.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,357
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    Does anyone know what has been done about delivery mechanisms?

    - The US had their vast healthcare system. Chaotic and over-priced, yes, but vast amounts of capacity. The Trump warp speed stuff wasn't a total bust either.
    - Israel had small size, health care system with deliberate over capacity (think war reserve), a country where just about everyone has been in the army, the deal with Pfizer and a logistical plan.
    - The UK etc etc

    To get a smooth, fast, roll out, you need more than just a pile of vaccine. Is the groundwork happening in Europe?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,117

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    edited February 2021

    It's really desperate stuff coming out of the EU. Beyond unacceptable.

    There appear to be no sane voices left over there able to say "Serioulsy guys - you are looking profoundly foolish. Each utterance is proving so counter-productive. STFU."

    I know you are a professional environmentalist. Has your second paragraph been recycled? It could easily have been written about any number of PB Brexiteers towards the end of last year. If so, good work!
    I just think Europe these days is missing the people of the stature of a Brandt or a Chirac, who could "have a quiet word" in the situation the EU big-wigs have faced this past week.
    A very fair comment. Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Schmidt also spring to mind.
    True, but perhaps not unique to the other side of the Channel. Which elder statesman would parties or partisans in the UK listen to with respect?
    A good question. Looking back at previous Prime Ministers, maybe Brown and Major, certainly not Blair or Cameron, both of whom have enormous credibility questions to answer. Although I have noticed since the demise of Corbyn, Blair's reputation seems to be undergoing a very minor revival.

    Of Leaders of the Opposition, perhaps Hague, Howard or even Milliband. Although Howard was not my cup of tea, as a moderate Brexiteer, maybe he cuts through to both sides of the divide more than others.
    Hague's a good spot. Ed M is arguably following in his footsteps- hopeless leaders at wrong times, but both had/have more to give.
    Howard can cut through- heck, he tried over the IM Bill. Didn't work though, which illustrates the problem. My hunch is that the political machine is so good at shredding reputations now that the current generation can ignore the warnings of their elders.

    If you want to cut off any previous PM, it's too easy;
    Major: Black Wednesday
    Blair: Iraq
    Brown: Gold
    Cameron: Referendum
    May: (where to begin?)
    It's too easy, and saves you the trouble of thinking whether their warnings carry any weight.

    Which is another argument for having someone whose entire job is to whisper in the PM's ear "remember you too are mortal."
    You could be right, although Black Wednesday was a long time ago, and no one except PB Historians remember Brown swapping the gold reserves for magic beans.

    I was looking at Heseltine, Clarke and Patton, but dismissed them all as Brexit (not Brexiteer!) bad guys. So in today's climate I struggle to find a name that makes the cut.

    As to your "remember you too are mortal" , it happened to Thatcher, but Johnson (and I don't understand how he does it) seems to defy gravity.
    With Brown it was either the election that never was, or Gillian Duffy. Take your pick.
    I don't think they were anything more than party politically strategic errors. If Brown has an Archilles heel it is gold.
    Gold was only an issue in hindsight. You can see that with the aid of this handy 30-year gold price chart. The price had been static or declining for years and only shot up years after the sale.
    https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/30-year-gold-price-history-in-uk-pounds-per-ounce

    The issue for which Brown should be pilloried is PFI.
    Rubbish. I remember being very abusive towards him for the gold thing in various Economics A Level essays, which would have been early 2000s.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    Does anyone know what has been done about delivery mechanisms?

    - The US had their vast healthcare system. Chaotic and over-priced, yes, but vast amounts of capacity. The Trump warp speed stuff wasn't a total bust either.
    - Israel had small size, health care system with deliberate over capacity (think war reserve), a country where just about everyone has been in the army, the deal with Pfizer and a logistical plan.
    - The UK etc etc

    To get a smooth, fast, roll out, you need more than just a pile of vaccine. Is the groundwork happening in Europe?
    I think the roll out in the USA is grotesquely unequal racially, despite higher mortality. I am not sure that will come right.

    Europe has historically been poor at adult vaccination. It takes planning.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    The Pope proves the truth of my law that analogies are not illuminating...

    https://twitter.com/geofflemon/status/1253128901670256640

    Do we think, bored of an evening in the Vatican, His Holiness drops in here to stir some shit?

    If so - who?

    @Leon ?
    Lol 😂!
  • DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    What a load of shite from Trevor Sinclair.

    https://twitter.com/trevor8sinclair/status/1356588060939534337

    Liverpool v. Man City might have been the most important matches over recent seasons but the matches I look forward to when the fixtures are released are against United and Everton.

    Of course United are the matches you most look forward to.

    A guaranteed six points.
    Actually boring 0-0 draws have been the most common result of late.
    True of many a derby too. Two sides who both don't want to lose.

    Derbies just aren't the same this season without fans in the ground.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    55% of Scots and a majority of Labour voters voted to stay in the UK in 2014, SLab also need Tory tactical votes to beat the SNP.

    They are never going to win back Nat, UK haters like you
    55% of Scots did NOT vote to stay in the UK. You're making it up. Changing the facts. And in any case missing the point. I am talking about the substantial minority (third) of Labour voters hwo didn't vote for the Union Flag in 2014. I've not seen any discussion of that.

    HYUFD’s timing in pinning his hopes on SLab looks immaculate.

    https://twitter.com/paauul/status/1356703200766738432?s=21
    Couldn’t SLab just fly/sit in front of St Andrew’s Crosses north of the border?
    They're never going to out-saltire the SNP, so I don't blame them for not trying to do so. I also don't blame them for not censoring the Union flag - to be honest, anyone who is incensed by the Union flag (and there are plenty here) are not going to vote Labour, unless they turn themselves into the SNP's poodle/repository of tactical votes as the Greens have done. Let's see how their new leader (whoever it is) does.

    Not a leader, but a poodle. He/she can't deviate from the London line, that's the problem for them. But yes, I don't know how they resolve the problem of trying to out-Britnat the Tories, while finding the SNP sitting oin their progressive policies and home rule.
    I am not massively optimistic for the Scottish Labour Party. I am optimistic that the SNP are going to rip themselves into tagliatelle, I'm just not sure that Scottish Labour are positioning themselves right to be the beneficiaries.
    The infighting in the SNP is bonkers, and damaging. Much as they hate each others guts though, both factions are keen on independence. It is just matters of personality and tactics.
    It is bonkers in one way, but in other way, perfectly inevitable. The whole Scot Nat stance is that 'malign outside forces have held us back from *****'

    '*****' being whatever the desired outcome is - happiness, prosperity, freedom etc. They have a fatal attraction to being betrayed, aggrieved, stabbed in the back when they were so close - and if there is nobody there to give them that, well they're bloody well going to do it themselves. 'Seeds of its own destruction' is not quite perfect, but close.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,695
    Macron says that 4 sites in France will start producing vaccine by the end of February and says that Europeans have to be vaccinated together.
    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1356716711714693122
    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1356718562002558976
  • rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    I think you're being optimistic, by a month or two at least. (I also don't think that 60-70% is yet herd immunity for the new variants.)

    --AS
  • Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    55% of Scots and a majority of Labour voters voted to stay in the UK in 2014, SLab also need Tory tactical votes to beat the SNP.

    They are never going to win back Nat, UK haters like you
    55% of Scots did NOT vote to stay in the UK. You're making it up. Changing the facts. And in any case missing the point. I am talking about the substantial minority (third) of Labour voters hwo didn't vote for the Union Flag in 2014. I've not seen any discussion of that.

    HYUFD’s timing in pinning his hopes on SLab looks immaculate.

    https://twitter.com/paauul/status/1356703200766738432?s=21
    Couldn’t SLab just fly/sit in front of St Andrew’s Crosses north of the border?
    They're never going to out-saltire the SNP, so I don't blame them for not trying to do so. I also don't blame them for not censoring the Union flag - to be honest, anyone who is incensed by the Union flag (and there are plenty here) are not going to vote Labour, unless they turn themselves into the SNP's poodle/repository of tactical votes as the Greens have done. Let's see how their new leader (whoever it is) does.

    Not a leader, but a poodle. He/she can't deviate from the London line, that's the problem for them. But yes, I don't know how they resolve the problem of trying to out-Britnat the Tories, while finding the SNP sitting oin their progressive policies and home rule.
    I am not massively optimistic for the Scottish Labour Party. I am optimistic that the SNP are going to rip themselves into tagliatelle, I'm just not sure that Scottish Labour are positioning themselves right to be the beneficiaries.
    The infighting in the SNP is bonkers, and damaging. Much as they hate each others guts though, both factions are keen on independence. It is just matters of personality and tactics.
    It is bonkers in one way, but in other way, perfectly inevitable. The whole Scot Nat stance is that 'malign outside forces have held us back from *****'

    '*****' being whatever the desired outcome is - happiness, prosperity, freedom etc. They have a fatal attraction to being betrayed, aggrieved, stabbed in the back when they were so close - and if there is nobody there to give them that, well they're bloody well going to do it themselves. 'Seeds of its own destruction' is not quite perfect, but close.

    How dispiriting it must be for Unionists that even when the SNP are fucking up, the talent free zones that are their parties can’t land a glove on them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Macron says that 4 sites in France will start producing vaccine by the end of February and says that Europeans have to be vaccinated together.
    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1356716711714693122
    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1356718562002558976

    Not sure what they second part has to do with anything - even when supplied through the European scheme some places are vaccinating far faster than others, so it is not together in that sense.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    Does anyone know what has been done about delivery mechanisms?

    - The US had their vast healthcare system. Chaotic and over-priced, yes, but vast amounts of capacity. The Trump warp speed stuff wasn't a total bust either.
    - Israel had small size, health care system with deliberate over capacity (think war reserve), a country where just about everyone has been in the army, the deal with Pfizer and a logistical plan.
    - The UK etc etc

    To get a smooth, fast, roll out, you need more than just a pile of vaccine. Is the groundwork happening in Europe?
    I think the roll out in the USA is grotesquely unequal racially, despite higher mortality. I am not sure that will come right.

    Europe has historically been poor at adult vaccination. It takes planning.
    Regarding the latter point, does the NHS model of provision - with a bewildering array of different institutions, to be sure, but all basically part of a unified structure - give it an advantage over continental insurance-based systems in a situation like this? Are European health ministries capable of the same degree of centralized command and control as those based in Whitehall and the devolved administrations?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    I am very loathe to agree with a Trump about anything but the contention that Patrick Harvie is a national embarrassment is pretty much unarguable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited February 2021
    If you don't want people to pursue political vendettas against you, don't go into politics.
  • Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone over 70 who hasn't had a jab yet can now arrange one. You don't have to wait for a letter.

    Can you give more info? Can’t see anything on the nhs website for instance. Mother in law is over 70 and not called yet.
    https://twitter.com/going4golds/status/1356243874835001345
    Thing I can't understand: we spend ages telling our elderly parents (at least, I do) not to click on random links to random websites, but to check it's actually legitimate, e.g. in this case an nhs.uk address. The above does take you through to an nhs.uk website, but the clickable link, labelled mygp.me? Any shyster could have set that up. We know there are Covid vaccination scams doing the rounds. What's wrong with jab.nhs.uk or similar if you want a short, snappy link?
    That is because the link is privatised; mygp is an Iplato (sorry, iPLATO) service:
    In a nutshell, the iPLATO service (also resold by EE, part of the BT Group, and is the UK's most advanced digital communications company) improves health outcomes and transforms access to primary care.

    iPLATO includes a Patient Facing Service called myGP, developed under the nationally funded GPSoC Lot 1 (free for patients, practices and CCGs). This ‘must-have’ healthcare app helps GP practices comply with national guidelines for online patient services, whilst offering specific improvements in automated data collection, streamlined call and recall, and improved medication management that support digital care plans.

    The iPLATO solution supports true ‘2-Way’ text messaging to allow GP patients to cancel unwanted appointments through reply SMS (in response to an automated appointment reminder) or through myGP. This allows GP practices to systematically free up urgent GP appointments, thereby, improving access and reducing pressure on local A&E. The service also includes a sophisticated Campaign Read Coding feature too.

    https://www.emishealth.com/products/partner-products/iplato/

    It is also because the browser makers decided they did not like old "extended validation" certificates that gave end-users more information in the browser.

    But as you say, the end result is the government is inadvertently coaching people to fall for phishing scams.
  • Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    55% of Scots and a majority of Labour voters voted to stay in the UK in 2014, SLab also need Tory tactical votes to beat the SNP.

    They are never going to win back Nat, UK haters like you
    55% of Scots did NOT vote to stay in the UK. You're making it up. Changing the facts. And in any case missing the point. I am talking about the substantial minority (third) of Labour voters hwo didn't vote for the Union Flag in 2014. I've not seen any discussion of that.

    HYUFD’s timing in pinning his hopes on SLab looks immaculate.

    https://twitter.com/paauul/status/1356703200766738432?s=21
    Couldn’t SLab just fly/sit in front of St Andrew’s Crosses north of the border?
    They're never going to out-saltire the SNP, so I don't blame them for not trying to do so. I also don't blame them for not censoring the Union flag - to be honest, anyone who is incensed by the Union flag (and there are plenty here) are not going to vote Labour, unless they turn themselves into the SNP's poodle/repository of tactical votes as the Greens have done. Let's see how their new leader (whoever it is) does.

    Not a leader, but a poodle. He/she can't deviate from the London line, that's the problem for them. But yes, I don't know how they resolve the problem of trying to out-Britnat the Tories, while finding the SNP sitting oin their progressive policies and home rule.
    I am not massively optimistic for the Scottish Labour Party. I am optimistic that the SNP are going to rip themselves into tagliatelle, I'm just not sure that Scottish Labour are positioning themselves right to be the beneficiaries.
    The infighting in the SNP is bonkers, and damaging. Much as they hate each others guts though, both factions are keen on independence. It is just matters of personality and tactics.
    It is bonkers in one way, but in other way, perfectly inevitable. The whole Scot Nat stance is that 'malign outside forces have held us back from *****'

    '*****' being whatever the desired outcome is - happiness, prosperity, freedom etc. They have a fatal attraction to being betrayed, aggrieved, stabbed in the back when they were so close - and if there is nobody there to give them that, well they're bloody well going to do it themselves. 'Seeds of its own destruction' is not quite perfect, but close.

    How dispiriting it must be for Unionists that even when the SNP are fucking up, the talent free zones that are their parties can’t land a glove on them.
    The SNP are morphing into Scottish Labour. It doesn't matter how crap they are, how much they screw up, how troubled the in-fighting, they still absolutely dominate regardless.

    Though if they ever do fall then Scottish Labour shows they could fall hard and fall fast. I wouldn't hold my breath on it happening though - but nor should you be complacent.
  • Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    That sounds reasonable, but the EU figure is likely to vary quite a bit by country. In particular, the French question is heavily dependent on takeup - I think we've seen estimates that as many as two thirds of Frenchmen would refuse it? If so, they reach herd immunity approximately never.

    Another possible unknown is what kind of state the Portuguese health service is in by the time the current wave is under control, and how long it'll then take to move into top gear on vaccines.
    Though even The Spectator might have trouble blaming the EU Commission for problems in France if other Euro-nations are sorted. And even if that timetable slips a bit, the coming of spring and their lower underlying caseload will cover quite a lot of sins.

    (Just checked the FT tracker; the current French death rate is about 1/3 of the UK's. For all the Sturm und Drang about vaccines recenty, and the genuine improvement that Lockdown 3 has brought to the UK, we're still in a relatively bad way.)
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    Eric Trump knowing who Patrick Harvie is is the weirdest bit of all that.

    Patrick Harvie isn't a national embarrassment because precisely no-one in Scotland gives the square root of a fuck about who Patrick Harvie is.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Andy_JS said:

    This may not be popular in places like Islington and Camden.

    "Labour urged to focus on flag and patriotism to win voters' trust, leak reveals
    Exclusive: leaked internal strategy presentation reveals plan to ‘change the party’s body language’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals

    Heart of stone not to CHORTLE

    Labour is fucked. I'm a political geek and I have no idea what the Labour stand for, except mobs chucking statues in rivers and injecting teachers?

    As one person says there: "they are the party of students"

    That is it. In a nutshell. They are the NUS trying to govern the nation. It will not work. We are not America, we do not have the guilt about slavery (whether we should is a different matter, but trying to make people feel "guilty" for something they didn't do, and happened two centuries ago, is not a vote-winner).

    How do they get out of this mess?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720

    Macron says that 4 sites in France will start producing vaccine by the end of February and says that Europeans have to be vaccinated together.
    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1356716711714693122
    https://twitter.com/EmmanuelMacron/status/1356718562002558976

    Of course they have to be vaccinated together. Ever closer union innit?
  • Endillion said:

    It's really desperate stuff coming out of the EU. Beyond unacceptable.

    There appear to be no sane voices left over there able to say "Serioulsy guys - you are looking profoundly foolish. Each utterance is proving so counter-productive. STFU."

    I know you are a professional environmentalist. Has your second paragraph been recycled? It could easily have been written about any number of PB Brexiteers towards the end of last year. If so, good work!
    I just think Europe these days is missing the people of the stature of a Brandt or a Chirac, who could "have a quiet word" in the situation the EU big-wigs have faced this past week.
    A very fair comment. Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Schmidt also spring to mind.
    True, but perhaps not unique to the other side of the Channel. Which elder statesman would parties or partisans in the UK listen to with respect?
    A good question. Looking back at previous Prime Ministers, maybe Brown and Major, certainly not Blair or Cameron, both of whom have enormous credibility questions to answer. Although I have noticed since the demise of Corbyn, Blair's reputation seems to be undergoing a very minor revival.

    Of Leaders of the Opposition, perhaps Hague, Howard or even Milliband. Although Howard was not my cup of tea, as a moderate Brexiteer, maybe he cuts through to both sides of the divide more than others.
    Hague's a good spot. Ed M is arguably following in his footsteps- hopeless leaders at wrong times, but both had/have more to give.
    Howard can cut through- heck, he tried over the IM Bill. Didn't work though, which illustrates the problem. My hunch is that the political machine is so good at shredding reputations now that the current generation can ignore the warnings of their elders.

    If you want to cut off any previous PM, it's too easy;
    Major: Black Wednesday
    Blair: Iraq
    Brown: Gold
    Cameron: Referendum
    May: (where to begin?)
    It's too easy, and saves you the trouble of thinking whether their warnings carry any weight.

    Which is another argument for having someone whose entire job is to whisper in the PM's ear "remember you too are mortal."
    You could be right, although Black Wednesday was a long time ago, and no one except PB Historians remember Brown swapping the gold reserves for magic beans.

    I was looking at Heseltine, Clarke and Patton, but dismissed them all as Brexit (not Brexiteer!) bad guys. So in today's climate I struggle to find a name that makes the cut.

    As to your "remember you too are mortal" , it happened to Thatcher, but Johnson (and I don't understand how he does it) seems to defy gravity.
    With Brown it was either the election that never was, or Gillian Duffy. Take your pick.
    I don't think they were anything more than party politically strategic errors. If Brown has an Archilles heel it is gold.
    Gold was only an issue in hindsight. You can see that with the aid of this handy 30-year gold price chart. The price had been static or declining for years and only shot up years after the sale.
    https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/30-year-gold-price-history-in-uk-pounds-per-ounce

    The issue for which Brown should be pilloried is PFI.
    Rubbish. I remember being very abusive towards him for the gold thing in various Economics A Level essays, which would have been early 2000s.
    Look at the chart.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,291
    Re. Mrs Duffy. It seems to me she was a portent of everything that was going to happen.

    She was a portent to Brexit, which wouldn't have happened without millions of Labour voters like Mrs Duffy voting for it and she was a portent to the collapse of the Red Wall and the Boris landslide in 2019.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
  • Endillion said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    That sounds reasonable, but the EU figure is likely to vary quite a bit by country. In particular, the French question is heavily dependent on takeup - I think we've seen estimates that as many as two thirds of Frenchmen would refuse it? If so, they reach herd immunity approximately never.

    Another possible unknown is what kind of state the Portuguese health service is in by the time the current wave is under control, and how long it'll then take to move into top gear on vaccines.
    Though even The Spectator might have trouble blaming the EU Commission for problems in France if other Euro-nations are sorted. And even if that timetable slips a bit, the coming of spring and their lower underlying caseload will cover quite a lot of sins.

    (Just checked the FT tracker; the current French death rate is about 1/3 of the UK's. For all the Sturm und Drang about vaccines recenty, and the genuine improvement that Lockdown 3 has brought to the UK, we're still in a relatively bad way.)
    Though case numbers have crossed over. Case numbers in the UK are now lower and falling extremely fast, while in France they're now higher and still slowly rising.

    So there's a lag on deaths, expect deaths in the UK to continue for weeks but by next month it should be a different story.

    Hopefully we can eliminate this bastard bug soon and the rest of Europe can catch up not much longer after.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Mike Dean is a self important prat. There is no way that was a sending off. It probably wasn't even a foul. The offside decision earlier disallowing a Southampton goal was absurd. And I say all this as a United fan.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    New thread.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    55% of Scots and a majority of Labour voters voted to stay in the UK in 2014, SLab also need Tory tactical votes to beat the SNP.

    They are never going to win back Nat, UK haters like you
    55% of Scots did NOT vote to stay in the UK. You're making it up. Changing the facts. And in any case missing the point. I am talking about the substantial minority (third) of Labour voters hwo didn't vote for the Union Flag in 2014. I've not seen any discussion of that.

    HYUFD’s timing in pinning his hopes on SLab looks immaculate.

    https://twitter.com/paauul/status/1356703200766738432?s=21
    Couldn’t SLab just fly/sit in front of St Andrew’s Crosses north of the border?
    They're never going to out-saltire the SNP, so I don't blame them for not trying to do so. I also don't blame them for not censoring the Union flag - to be honest, anyone who is incensed by the Union flag (and there are plenty here) are not going to vote Labour, unless they turn themselves into the SNP's poodle/repository of tactical votes as the Greens have done. Let's see how their new leader (whoever it is) does.

    Not a leader, but a poodle. He/she can't deviate from the London line, that's the problem for them. But yes, I don't know how they resolve the problem of trying to out-Britnat the Tories, while finding the SNP sitting oin their progressive policies and home rule.
    I am not massively optimistic for the Scottish Labour Party. I am optimistic that the SNP are going to rip themselves into tagliatelle, I'm just not sure that Scottish Labour are positioning themselves right to be the beneficiaries.
    The infighting in the SNP is bonkers, and damaging. Much as they hate each others guts though, both factions are keen on independence. It is just matters of personality and tactics.
    It is bonkers in one way, but in other way, perfectly inevitable. The whole Scot Nat stance is that 'malign outside forces have held us back from *****'

    '*****' being whatever the desired outcome is - happiness, prosperity, freedom etc. They have a fatal attraction to being betrayed, aggrieved, stabbed in the back when they were so close - and if there is nobody there to give them that, well they're bloody well going to do it themselves. 'Seeds of its own destruction' is not quite perfect, but close.

    How dispiriting it must be for Unionists that even when the SNP are fucking up, the talent free zones that are their parties can’t land a glove on them.
    It isn't particularly dispiriting for me - I'm excited to see where it all ends up. I don't really have sentimental ties to any of the parties, so their lack of headway doesn't bother me particularly.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    55% of Scots and a majority of Labour voters voted to stay in the UK in 2014, SLab also need Tory tactical votes to beat the SNP.

    They are never going to win back Nat, UK haters like you
    55% of Scots did NOT vote to stay in the UK. You're making it up. Changing the facts. And in any case missing the point. I am talking about the substantial minority (third) of Labour voters hwo didn't vote for the Union Flag in 2014. I've not seen any discussion of that.

    2014 result was:

    No 55%
    Yes 45%
    Of those who were (a) entitled and (b) actually voted and (c) didn't spoil the ballot. Not all Scots.
    So it is your contention that far less than 45% voted for Independence in 2014?
  • DavidL said:

    I am very loathe to agree with a Trump about anything but the contention that Patrick Harvie is a national embarrassment is pretty much unarguable.
    Wait and see if Nicola accepts Douglas Ross’s gauntlet of a mano a mano debate on Indy before casting stones re. national embarrassments.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    It's really desperate stuff coming out of the EU. Beyond unacceptable.

    There appear to be no sane voices left over there able to say "Serioulsy guys - you are looking profoundly foolish. Each utterance is proving so counter-productive. STFU."

    I know you are a professional environmentalist. Has your second paragraph been recycled? It could easily have been written about any number of PB Brexiteers towards the end of last year. If so, good work!
    I just think Europe these days is missing the people of the stature of a Brandt or a Chirac, who could "have a quiet word" in the situation the EU big-wigs have faced this past week.
    A very fair comment. Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Schmidt also spring to mind.
    True, but perhaps not unique to the other side of the Channel. Which elder statesman would parties or partisans in the UK listen to with respect?
    A good question. Looking back at previous Prime Ministers, maybe Brown and Major, certainly not Blair or Cameron, both of whom have enormous credibility questions to answer. Although I have noticed since the demise of Corbyn, Blair's reputation seems to be undergoing a very minor revival.

    Of Leaders of the Opposition, perhaps Hague, Howard or even Milliband. Although Howard was not my cup of tea, as a moderate Brexiteer, maybe he cuts through to both sides of the divide more than others.
    Hague's a good spot. Ed M is arguably following in his footsteps- hopeless leaders at wrong times, but both had/have more to give.
    Howard can cut through- heck, he tried over the IM Bill. Didn't work though, which illustrates the problem. My hunch is that the political machine is so good at shredding reputations now that the current generation can ignore the warnings of their elders.

    If you want to cut off any previous PM, it's too easy;
    Major: Black Wednesday
    Blair: Iraq
    Brown: Gold
    Cameron: Referendum
    May: (where to begin?)
    It's too easy, and saves you the trouble of thinking whether their warnings carry any weight.

    Which is another argument for having someone whose entire job is to whisper in the PM's ear "remember you too are mortal."
    You could be right, although Black Wednesday was a long time ago, and no one except PB Historians remember Brown swapping the gold reserves for magic beans.

    I was looking at Heseltine, Clarke and Patton, but dismissed them all as Brexit (not Brexiteer!) bad guys. So in today's climate I struggle to find a name that makes the cut.

    As to your "remember you too are mortal" , it happened to Thatcher, but Johnson (and I don't understand how he does it) seems to defy gravity.
    With Brown it was either the election that never was, or Gillian Duffy. Take your pick.
    I don't think they were anything more than party politically strategic errors. If Brown has an Archilles heel it is gold.
    Gold was only an issue in hindsight. You can see that with the aid of this handy 30-year gold price chart. The price had been static or declining for years and only shot up years after the sale.
    https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/30-year-gold-price-history-in-uk-pounds-per-ounce

    The issue for which Brown should be pilloried is PFI.
    Rubbish. I remember being very abusive towards him for the gold thing in various Economics A Level essays, which would have been early 2000s.
    Look at the chart.
    I did. He sold in 99, at the bottom of the market. The price didn't take off till late 2000s.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,117

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    I go on polling, not anecdotes from anti Tories.

    26% of Welsh voters want to scrap the Senedd now, more than the just 22% of Welsh voters who want independence.

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1352619073302048768?s=20

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1352620446051655682?s=20
  • rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    I think you're being optimistic, by a month or two at least. (I also don't think that 60-70% is yet herd immunity for the new variants.)

    --AS
    Would it be fair to say that a month or two in the summer wont matter that much? Last summer cases were down to <20 per 100k without any vaccines. As long as they are vaccinated by October so we dont get another big wave next winter is that not sufficient from a policy perspective?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    Does anyone know what has been done about delivery mechanisms?

    - The US had their vast healthcare system. Chaotic and over-priced, yes, but vast amounts of capacity. The Trump warp speed stuff wasn't a total bust either.
    - Israel had small size, health care system with deliberate over capacity (think war reserve), a country where just about everyone has been in the army, the deal with Pfizer and a logistical plan.
    - The UK etc etc

    To get a smooth, fast, roll out, you need more than just a pile of vaccine. Is the groundwork happening in Europe?
    I think the roll out in the USA is grotesquely unequal racially, despite higher mortality. I am not sure that will come right.

    Europe has historically been poor at adult vaccination. It takes planning.
    Regarding the latter point, does the NHS model of provision - with a bewildering array of different institutions, to be sure, but all basically part of a unified structure - give it an advantage over continental insurance-based systems in a situation like this? Are European health ministries capable of the same degree of centralized command and control as those based in Whitehall and the devolved administrations?
    Yes, I think that is clear. Each GP practice has a register, and all coded for various diagnoses. It is straightforward to call in those in each cohort albeit some practices do it more efficiently.

    One other key is that GP practices get paid per jab given, and practice managers are notoriously mercenary. Currently £12.85 plus another £10 for the second dose. There was also an extra supplement of £30 if done in a care home by 17th Jan, £20 if by 24th Jan, £10 after that.

    No wonder those care homes were done quickly at the beginning!


  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
    It is both a symbol of positive pride and to some people a symbol of Empire and superiority, just as the American Stars and Bars hangs on the wall of every US school, and is draped around a Trump supporter about to take the Capitol Building. And don't get me started on the flag of St. George. A positive symbol for an England Rugby fan, and a symbol of white supremacy for the EDL.
  • RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
    Yep, and ghastly taste as well.


  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
    Yep, and ghastly taste as well.


    How on earth does that makes it a symbol of xenophobia?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,117
    edited February 2021
    Leon said:

    Andy_JS said:

    This may not be popular in places like Islington and Camden.

    "Labour urged to focus on flag and patriotism to win voters' trust, leak reveals
    Exclusive: leaked internal strategy presentation reveals plan to ‘change the party’s body language’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals

    Heart of stone not to CHORTLE

    Labour is fucked. I'm a political geek and I have no idea what the Labour stand for, except mobs chucking statues in rivers and injecting teachers?

    As one person says there: "they are the party of students"

    That is it. In a nutshell. They are the NUS trying to govern the nation. It will not work. We are not America, we do not have the guilt about slavery (whether we should is a different matter, but trying to make people feel "guilty" for something they didn't do, and happened two centuries ago, is not a vote-winner).

    How do they get out of this mess?
    Starmer has had the best ratings of an Opposition leader so far since David Cameron, he also has better ratings as an Opposition leader at this stage than Hague, IDS and Howard did.

    Voters may still be reluctant to commit to Labour but they do seem to like Starmer so it would be extremely complacent of Tories to dismiss him as being unable to become PM after the next general election, though a Labour majority remains unlikely
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
    Yep, and ghastly taste as well.


    How on earth does that makes it a symbol of xenophobia?
    Because Farage is a xenophobe and he wraps himself in it at every opportunity.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    I go on polling, not anecdotes from anti Tories.

    26% of Welsh voters want to scrap the Senedd now, more than the just 22% of Welsh voters who want independence.

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1352619073302048768?s=20

    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1352620446051655682?s=20
    I remain amazed at how in your book, 22% is a minority, whilst 26% is a majority.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,220

    Shocked this guy lost his money in GameStomp....he should stick to pizza reviews.

    https://twitter.com/stoolpresidente/status/1356618475234557956?s=19

    Well we all know what Portnoy’s Complaint is about.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
    Yep, and ghastly taste as well.


    How on earth does that makes it a symbol of xenophobia?
    Because Farage is a xenophobe and he wraps himself in it at every opportunity.
    I'm pretty sure that makes every national flag in the world a symbol of xenophobia. By definition they are going to be utilised by xenophobes.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    edited February 2021
    Selebian said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Anyone over 70 who hasn't had a jab yet can now arrange one. You don't have to wait for a letter.

    Can you give more info? Can’t see anything on the nhs website for instance. Mother in law is over 70 and not called yet.
    https://twitter.com/going4golds/status/1356243874835001345
    Thing I can't understand: we spend ages telling our elderly parents (at least, I do) not to click on random links to random websites, but to check it's actually legitimate, e.g. in this case an nhs.uk address. The above does take you through to an nhs.uk website, but the clickable link, labelled mygp.me? Any shyster could have set that up. We know there are Covid vaccination scams doing the rounds. What's wrong with jab.nhs.uk or similar if you want a short, snappy link?
    It shouldn't really be my job to let people know they can book an appointment if they're over 70 and haven't had a jab yet. I just happened to notice it on Peter Gold's Twitter page so I thought it would be useful to post it on here. He is/was leader of the opposition on Tower Hamlets council and councillor for the area next to Canary Wharf.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,209

    It's really desperate stuff coming out of the EU. Beyond unacceptable.

    There appear to be no sane voices left over there able to say "Serioulsy guys - you are looking profoundly foolish. Each utterance is proving so counter-productive. STFU."

    I know you are a professional environmentalist. Has your second paragraph been recycled? It could easily have been written about any number of PB Brexiteers towards the end of last year. If so, good work!
    I just think Europe these days is missing the people of the stature of a Brandt or a Chirac, who could "have a quiet word" in the situation the EU big-wigs have faced this past week.
    A very fair comment. Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Schmidt also spring to mind.
    True, but perhaps not unique to the other side of the Channel. Which elder statesman would parties or partisans in the UK listen to with respect?
    A good question. Looking back at previous Prime Ministers, maybe Brown and Major, certainly not Blair or Cameron, both of whom have enormous credibility questions to answer. Although I have noticed since the demise of Corbyn, Blair's reputation seems to be undergoing a very minor revival.

    Of Leaders of the Opposition, perhaps Hague, Howard or even Milliband. Although Howard was not my cup of tea, as a moderate Brexiteer, maybe he cuts through to both sides of the divide more than others.
    Hague's a good spot. Ed M is arguably following in his footsteps- hopeless leaders at wrong times, but both had/have more to give.
    Howard can cut through- heck, he tried over the IM Bill. Didn't work though, which illustrates the problem. My hunch is that the political machine is so good at shredding reputations now that the current generation can ignore the warnings of their elders.

    If you want to cut off any previous PM, it's too easy;
    Major: Black Wednesday
    Blair: Iraq
    Brown: Gold
    Cameron: Referendum
    May: (where to begin?)
    It's too easy, and saves you the trouble of thinking whether their warnings carry any weight.

    Which is another argument for having someone whose entire job is to whisper in the PM's ear "remember you too are mortal."
    You could be right, although Black Wednesday was a long time ago, and no one except PB Historians remember Brown swapping the gold reserves for magic beans.

    I was looking at Heseltine, Clarke and Patton, but dismissed them all as Brexit (not Brexiteer!) bad guys. So in today's climate I struggle to find a name that makes the cut.

    As to your "remember you too are mortal" , it happened to Thatcher, but Johnson (and I don't understand how he does it) seems to defy gravity.
    With Brown it was either the election that never was, or Gillian Duffy. Take your pick.
    I don't think they were anything more than party politically strategic errors. If Brown has an Archilles heel it is gold.
    Gold was only an issue in hindsight. You can see that with the aid of this handy 30-year gold price chart. The price had been static or declining for years and only shot up years after the sale.
    https://goldprice.org/gold-price-charts/30-year-gold-price-history-in-uk-pounds-per-ounce

    The issue for which Brown should be pilloried is PFI.
    Yes. And letting the City run riot. And not taxing enough. All the Tory type things in other words. When he stuck to being Labour he was excellent. Moral there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,117
    edited February 2021

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
    Yep, and ghastly taste as well.


    How on earth does that makes it a symbol of xenophobia?
    Because Farage is a xenophobe and he wraps himself in it at every opportunity.
    I'm pretty sure that makes every national flag in the world a symbol of xenophobia. By definition they are going to be utilised by xenophobes.
    Absolutely no xenephobia here however, no none at all

    https://twitter.com/Tyndale7/status/1349786073954725888?s=20
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,209

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    Does anyone know what has been done about delivery mechanisms?

    - The US had their vast healthcare system. Chaotic and over-priced, yes, but vast amounts of capacity. The Trump warp speed stuff wasn't a total bust either.
    - Israel had small size, health care system with deliberate over capacity (think war reserve), a country where just about everyone has been in the army, the deal with Pfizer and a logistical plan.
    - The UK etc etc

    To get a smooth, fast, roll out, you need more than just a pile of vaccine. Is the groundwork happening in Europe?
    Trump did an incredible job of ordering vaccines, and being (from the start) America first. (And there was no confusion. You want Moderna? You get it after America.) Of course, he also tried to persuade CureVac to upsticks and move to America...

    But the US rollout is a bit of a mess. I could well see California being almost as bad as France for getting jabs into peoples' arms.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    People will focus on trivial things rather than matters of substance?

    Well, it would make for a change.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1356688224568176644

    Now his pathetic comments make sense ..........

    So what - aiming for about 250 then is he?

    Late September is presumably doable for France?
    The EU will be 60-70% vaccinated (i.e. effective herd immunity when you include those that have already had CV19) by the end of June. We'll be there by the end of April.

    That's my forecast.
    Does anyone know what has been done about delivery mechanisms?

    - The US had their vast healthcare system. Chaotic and over-priced, yes, but vast amounts of capacity. The Trump warp speed stuff wasn't a total bust either.
    - Israel had small size, health care system with deliberate over capacity (think war reserve), a country where just about everyone has been in the army, the deal with Pfizer and a logistical plan.
    - The UK etc etc

    To get a smooth, fast, roll out, you need more than just a pile of vaccine. Is the groundwork happening in Europe?
    Trump did an incredible job of ordering vaccines, and being (from the start) America first. (And there was no confusion. You want Moderna? You get it after America.) Of course, he also tried to persuade CureVac to upsticks and move to America...

    But the US rollout is a bit of a mess. I could well see California being almost as bad as France for getting jabs into peoples' arms.

    Given the nature of US Government, is it even possible to estimate how much of the rollout mess is down to him, or down to various States?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    *Radical* rebranding. They’ll be starting petitions to protect statues and tweeting about cultural Marxism afore ye know it.
    https://twitter.com/naebd/status/1356699214911266817?s=21

    I do wonder how that will play with their voters in Scotland. Given a third are pro-indy. More UJs than the Olympics Torch's passage, albeit sans the Olympics sponsors. And about as likely to show the Kernow flag too.
    Welsh voters are getting restive too, where independence has minority support, but increasingly cross party. Not sure the Union Jack stuff will go down any better there.

    https://twitter.com/NationCymru/status/1356588063787466752?s=19
    If wrapping himself in the Union Flag is the best that Starmer has to offer we might as well buckle up for a long, hard clown-car ride from Johnson.

    If I was Starmer I would work on the premise that Scotland and Northern Ireland are lost. If that happens, Wales won't want to be outdone too, so sometime later off we go.

    So for starters, Starmer needs to look at how the red wall Tories, particularly in England feel aggrieved. They hate the notion that Labour are seen to be funding the idle and the feckless, and to their tax paying/ service receipt detriment. So aggressively attacking generational unemployment is a winner, to attack this I would look at a Finland style basic income experiment, but in exchange for the basic income the long term unemployed must undertake civic duties. Those functions that through local authority budget cuts no longer exist. Litter picking, social welfare and care functions. A civic national service, to drum in the work ethic could be brought in to give confidence and experience to NEETS.

    Education across the UK is a disaster, not least in Labour Wales. It needs to be funded properly, and league tables andtargets that can be achieved by smoke and mirrors removed.

    Easier said than done, NHS provision has to be tacitly rationed.

    If Starmer wants to wrap himself in the flag, industrial policy needs to focus back on self sufficiency. No local authority or public service should be driving around in vehicles that do not have a certain percentage of domestic input for example, why are most police patrol cars from Bavaria?

    Housing? Local authorities funding Rachman landlords has to stop. Like the post war, we build our way out of recession with good quality social housing. Create communities. Quality housing that if residents decide they want to abuse, they get turfed out into low quality Rachman properties.

    Racial integration should be encouraged, and xenophobia, educated out of xenophobes.

    There is no money in the pot post-Covid, so direct taxation has to rise, but it needs to be fair and equitable for everyone. The wealthy need to take some burden, but they do not need to be screwed. Inheritence tax is an issue. Hard working red wallers would prefer to leave their legacy to their children, not to fund the families of low level drug dealers and their multiple children from multiple mothers. So leave it alone! Legal taxation avoidance schemes by individuals to big business should be removed. If Amazon want to trade here, they are taxed like everyone else.

    I have been saying Starmer doesn't have to nail all his colours to the mast just yet, but so far, positive ideas are very, very thin on the ground.
    Some sensible ideas apart from your first 2 paragraphs. For starters Starmer is not going to win England if he is not seen as a patriot, all elected Labour PMs, Attlee, Wilson and Blair were proud to be seen with the Union Jack. Those seen as insufficiently patriotic like Corbyn and Foot were trounced.

    It is the height of defeatism to suggest the Union is lost and in any case in Wales the reverse is the case, the fastest growing momentum is to abolish the Senedd completely, not for independence on the latest polling.
    You no longer live in Wales. I can assure you that people I know who have always supported the Union, are more conflicted than we have ever been. I can stand myself with that group. If Scotland leave, the lock gate is breached. Welsh people will not want to be seen as English serfs.

    As for the Union flag, it has been hijacked from a symbol of unity to one of xenophobia. Starmer can by all means demonstrate his patriotism. A Union Jack waistcoat butters no parsnips!

    When I was much younger, I harbourered political aspirations, now all evaporated, and long ago. I used to drive an Alfa Romeo GTV6. I changed it for a white Ford Capri (made in Cologne, but politically British) I had a little Union Flag on the right hand side under the rear bumper. It was statement that I was a patriot. I was a patriot then and I remain a patriot. The little Union Flag on the German Ford was bollocks them, and it would be bollocks now.
    The union jack is now a symbol of xenophobia?
    Yep, and ghastly taste as well.


    How on earth does that makes it a symbol of xenophobia?
    Because Farage is a xenophobe and he wraps himself in it at every opportunity.
    I'm pretty sure that makes every national flag in the world a symbol of xenophobia. By definition they are going to be utilised by xenophobes.
    Absolutely no xenephobia here however, no none at all

    https://twitter.com/Tyndale7/status/1349786073954725888?s=20
    Shame she got caught up with that crowd and got her head filled up with garbage. Could have been a really good PM.
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