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Starmer, not up to it? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited January 2021 in General
Starmer, not up to it? – politicalbetting.com

ICYMI: Our polling finds that the public believe @MarcusRashford and @piersmorgan are doing a better job of holding the government to account than Keir Starmer or the Labour Party – Tables: https://t.co/zsCO43Kg0Z pic.twitter.com/If8vc3Sdr6

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    First to agree.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Second that.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Early days. He's not objectionable.
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    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,886
    edited January 2021
    Second Fourth to everything, like Starmer
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    Fifth like Trump
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    Incredible effort from the jabbers...
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    Tories love having Labour as their opposition as, generally, they are so inept at going about it.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    Israeli COVID deaths finally starting to trend downwards.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    I wonder to what extent the pandemic means that we should be careful about making comparisons to previous LOTOs? It does feel a little bit like politics is on hold for the time being.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,405
    What he needs are policies.

    One for free. Competition in public services. No, not privatisation. Excess capacity.

    Consider the hoary old promise - "A good state school, no need for choice"

    What about the following?

    "At least 2 good state schools per catchment area"

    - To reduces class sizes to 15, build more schools, hire more teachers
    - The maximum class size might not be 15, but that would be the intended average.
    - So it would be easy for parents to move between schools.
    - Plus smaller class sizes.

    Extend the idea to benefit offices etc. If you don't like the service at one, you should be free to try the other....
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    CCHQ has done well to get the nickname Captain Hindsight to stick. Captain Foresight would be closer, admittedly only once it is bleeding obvious the government will have to shift within a fortnight.

    Starmer is dull. That bit is true. John Smith was not, btw. Starmer needs to emulate Mrs Thatcher and get professional coaching to fix his delivery.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750


    A big increase in second doses - possible shift in policy with Pfizer supplies at risk ?

    Might be that more people are now meeting the 'urgent need' or whatever it was calculation - that is, there were some who it was never felt could wait 12 weeks, but could 8 or so.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    Incredible effort from the jabbers...

    Highest yet and up over 105,000 vs last week in England. Scotland running at less than half the rate of England.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021

    Incredible effort from the jabbers...

    Highest yet and up over 105,000 vs last week in England. Scotland running at less than half the rate of England.

    It shows incredible capacity is there given supply. By the summer, I don't see why we can't do a million a day if we went total gangbusters, 6am to 11pm.

    We could do all the remaining population in 2 months at that sort of rate.
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    kle4 said:


    A big increase in second doses - possible shift in policy with Pfizer supplies at risk ?

    Might be that more people are now meeting the 'urgent need' or whatever it was calculation - that is, there were some who it was never felt could wait 12 weeks, but could 8 or so.
    That's certainly possible.

    I've always expected that the 12 weeks would be a maximum and that they would bring people in from around 8 weeks in case of missed appointments or other difficulties.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    What he needs are policies.

    One for free. Competition in public services. No, not privatisation. Excess capacity.

    Consider the hoary old promise - "A good state school, no need for choice"

    What about the following?

    "At least 2 good state schools per catchment area"

    - To reduces class sizes to 15, build more schools, hire more teachers
    - The maximum class size might not be 15, but that would be the intended average.
    - So it would be easy for parents to move between schools.
    - Plus smaller class sizes.

    Extend the idea to benefit offices etc. If you don't like the service at one, you should be free to try the other....

    I like this idea in theory, but in practice?

    For example, there is supposed to be a free market in regards to GP surgeries however due to catchment areas and what not, its pretty useless.

    Why shouldn't I be able to join a GP surgery on the other side of my city, or even in a different city, if they are a better?

    I guess the same problem applies with schools.
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    Keep Calmer and Vote Starmer
    image
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Keep Calmer and Vote Starmer
    image

    Steir Karmer (anxiolytic for young beef cattle).
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Incredible effort from the jabbers...

    Highest yet and up over 105,000 vs last week in England. Scotland running at less than half the rate of England.

    I wonder how much the EU vaccination rates are affected by employment rules and general working culture etc in various countries? One thing I think we do have in the UK (especially in smaller organisations - probably like GP surgeries) is a strong culture of "mucking in" in emergencies and a preparedness to work around the clock (in many cases for little or no extra reward). If you were looking for similar situations in EU countries, which particular ones would you look to?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    IanB2 said:

    Tories love having Labour as their opposition as, generally, they are so inept at going about it.

    Blair was the exception and his party have never forgiven him for winning.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Extremely impressive vaccine numbers today. Hopefully that rate is sustained into the weekend and next week.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    kle4 said:


    A big increase in second doses - possible shift in policy with Pfizer supplies at risk ?

    Might be that more people are now meeting the 'urgent need' or whatever it was calculation - that is, there were some who it was never felt could wait 12 weeks, but could 8 or so.
    That's certainly possible.

    I've always expected that the 12 weeks would be a maximum and that they would bring people in from around 8 weeks in case of missed appointments or other difficulties.
    Could also be that some vaccination centres are finding it harder to find people amongst the priority cohorts, and are taking the opportunity (if permitted) to use spare vaccines on second doses.
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    CCHQ has done well to get the nickname Captain Hindsight to stick. Captain Foresight would be closer, admittedly only once it is bleeding obvious the government will have to shift within a fortnight.

    Starmer is dull. That bit is true. John Smith was not, btw. Starmer needs to emulate Mrs Thatcher and get professional coaching to fix his delivery.

    PMQs are like a man with boxing gloves trying to strangle an eel.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    I am told by husband that about 598,000 jabs were administered in the UK yesterday, excluding NI (which should bring the total above 600k when it reports.) The cumulative total since the campaign began is also about three-quarters that of the entire European Union, which provides more context for the recent ructions.
  • Options

    What he needs are policies.

    One for free. Competition in public services. No, not privatisation. Excess capacity.

    Consider the hoary old promise - "A good state school, no need for choice"

    What about the following?

    "At least 2 good state schools per catchment area"

    - To reduces class sizes to 15, build more schools, hire more teachers
    - The maximum class size might not be 15, but that would be the intended average.
    - So it would be easy for parents to move between schools.
    - Plus smaller class sizes.

    Extend the idea to benefit offices etc. If you don't like the service at one, you should be free to try the other....

    I like this idea in theory, but in practice?

    For example, there is supposed to be a free market in regards to GP surgeries however due to catchment areas and what not, its pretty useless.

    Why shouldn't I be able to join a GP surgery on the other side of my city, or even in a different city, if they are a better?

    I guess the same problem applies with schools.
    In schools, there is already a choice of state schools in all but the smallest towns. Likewise GPs. I'm not sure it has helped much. There might be information asymmetries but perhaps these are inherently sticky. Not to mention that while aggregate demand matches supply, competitive pressure on providers is limited -- why should an unpopular school or practice care how far its customers have travelled?

    That said, the success of Israel's programme has been ascribed at least in part to its having four state health providers in competition so there may be something in it.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    On topic, completely agree with the sentiment. It's become a running joke among my friends about Starmer being so useless. The memes are coming and that's not a good sign for him.
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    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    What he needs are policies.

    One for free. Competition in public services. No, not privatisation. Excess capacity.

    Consider the hoary old promise - "A good state school, no need for choice"

    What about the following?

    "At least 2 good state schools per catchment area"

    - To reduces class sizes to 15, build more schools, hire more teachers
    - The maximum class size might not be 15, but that would be the intended average.
    - So it would be easy for parents to move between schools.
    - Plus smaller class sizes.

    Extend the idea to benefit offices etc. If you don't like the service at one, you should be free to try the other....

    I like this idea in theory, but in practice?

    For example, there is supposed to be a free market in regards to GP surgeries however due to catchment areas and what not, its pretty useless.

    Why shouldn't I be able to join a GP surgery on the other side of my city, or even in a different city, if they are a better?

    I guess the same problem applies with schools.
    The logical conclusion would be school vouchers... That is actually a policy that could improve state education and social mobility, it could even be combined with policies to make private education less attractive/more expensive. It has zero chance of even being considered in the current LP. Even rebadged it would be an anathema because it was once looked at by some Tories in the eighties and because LP is very much a public sector producers party.
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    Was Piers Morgan not the most unpopular man in Britain before he faked the photos as well as after?
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    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:


    A big increase in second doses - possible shift in policy with Pfizer supplies at risk ?

    Might be that more people are now meeting the 'urgent need' or whatever it was calculation - that is, there were some who it was never felt could wait 12 weeks, but could 8 or so.
    That's certainly possible.

    I've always expected that the 12 weeks would be a maximum and that they would bring people in from around 8 weeks in case of missed appointments or other difficulties.
    Could also be that some vaccination centres are finding it harder to find people amongst the priority cohorts, and are taking the opportunity (if permitted) to use spare vaccines on second doses.
    That's certainly possible as well.

    Didn't PB have anecdotes of people under 70 now receiving appointments ?
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    CCHQ has done well to get the nickname Captain Hindsight to stick. Captain Foresight would be closer, admittedly only once it is bleeding obvious the government will have to shift within a fortnight.

    Starmer is dull. That bit is true. John Smith was not, btw. Starmer needs to emulate Mrs Thatcher and get professional coaching to fix his delivery.

    PMQs are like a man with boxing gloves trying to strangle an eel.
    "It isn't an eel really, but pretending it's an eel makes things so much easier."
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    alex_ said:

    Incredible effort from the jabbers...

    Highest yet and up over 105,000 vs last week in England. Scotland running at less than half the rate of England.

    I wonder how much the EU vaccination rates are affected by employment rules and general working culture etc in various countries? One thing I think we do have in the UK (especially in smaller organisations - probably like GP surgeries) is a strong culture of "mucking in" in emergencies and a preparedness to work around the clock (in many cases for little or no extra reward). If you were looking for similar situations in EU countries, which particular ones would you look to?
    In Spain only registered nurse can do them and they are following the Pfiser second dose rule rigidly resulting in considerable wastage not to mention the 700+ cases so far of politicos, generals and bishops who've jumped the queue...
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    Biologically, you might go for a hagfish.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited January 2021
    It's just hard to envisage why you wouldn't authorise helmets, even if you wanted a 'soft' policing approach for the day.

    Though a good rule of thumb is people are usually wrong when calling something a smoking gun.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    I am told by husband that about 598,000 jabs were administered in the UK yesterday, excluding NI (which should bring the total above 600k when it reports.) The cumulative total since the campaign began is also about three-quarters that of the entire European Union, which provides more context for the recent ructions.

    Good lord - that must make grim reading in Brussels...and Paris..Madrid...Berlin...Rome......
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    Incredible effort from the jabbers...

    Highest yet and up over 105,000 vs last week in England. Scotland running at less than half the rate of England.

    I wonder how much the EU vaccination rates are affected by employment rules and general working culture etc in various countries? One thing I think we do have in the UK (especially in smaller organisations - probably like GP surgeries) is a strong culture of "mucking in" in emergencies and a preparedness to work around the clock (in many cases for little or no extra reward). If you were looking for similar situations in EU countries, which particular ones would you look to?
    In Spain only registered nurse can do them and they are following the Pfiser second dose rule rigidly resulting in considerable wastage not to mention the 700+ cases so far of politicos, generals and bishops who've jumped the queue...
    Are there figures on how many have been wasted?
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    alex_ said:

    Incredible effort from the jabbers...

    Highest yet and up over 105,000 vs last week in England. Scotland running at less than half the rate of England.

    I wonder how much the EU vaccination rates are affected by employment rules and general working culture etc in various countries? One thing I think we do have in the UK (especially in smaller organisations - probably like GP surgeries) is a strong culture of "mucking in" in emergencies and a preparedness to work around the clock (in many cases for little or no extra reward). If you were looking for similar situations in EU countries, which particular ones would you look to?
    There's a fairly big difference between EU countries, isn't there?
    From memory, DK and DE were doing pretty well, FR and NL were having a shocker.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:


    A big increase in second doses - possible shift in policy with Pfizer supplies at risk ?

    Might be that more people are now meeting the 'urgent need' or whatever it was calculation - that is, there were some who it was never felt could wait 12 weeks, but could 8 or so.
    That's certainly possible.

    I've always expected that the 12 weeks would be a maximum and that they would bring people in from around 8 weeks in case of missed appointments or other difficulties.
    Could also be that some vaccination centres are finding it harder to find people amongst the priority cohorts, and are taking the opportunity (if permitted) to use spare vaccines on second doses.
    True and, with the best will in the world, the vaccination programme is bound to play out unevenly. We now appreciate that, in some parts of the country at least, work has started on the over 65s; at the same time there's concern that substantial numbers of frail, housebound individuals who live in the community and receive care at home are being missed out, presumably because health professionals either won't visit lots of individual residences on disease prevention grounds or don't have the time to do so.

    So yes, I suppose it's possible that, having got down as far as the marginally less urgent fifth cohort and/or only having the hard to access elderly left to go, GPs may be electing to fit in some of the second doses for older people, rather than having to stop and do them all in one go in another couple of months' time.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Apparently they might hold back payment or not order supplementary doses.

    That'll help get more vaccines sooner.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    kle4 said:

    It's just hard to envisage why you wouldn't authorise helmets, even if you wanted a 'soft' policing approach for the day.

    Though a good rule of thumb is people are usually wrong when calling something a smoking gun.
    This looks pretty bad though given Trump put Miller in charge of the DoD a few weeks earlier
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    carnforthcarnforth Posts: 3,209

    alex_ said:

    Incredible effort from the jabbers...

    Highest yet and up over 105,000 vs last week in England. Scotland running at less than half the rate of England.

    I wonder how much the EU vaccination rates are affected by employment rules and general working culture etc in various countries? One thing I think we do have in the UK (especially in smaller organisations - probably like GP surgeries) is a strong culture of "mucking in" in emergencies and a preparedness to work around the clock (in many cases for little or no extra reward). If you were looking for similar situations in EU countries, which particular ones would you look to?
    There's a fairly big difference between EU countries, isn't there?
    From memory, DK and DE were doing pretty well, FR and NL were having a shocker.
    Denmark are delaying second doses (but to 6 weeks not 12), which might explain it.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    Sheesh. Even that achievement owes much more to Boris than to anyone else. If he hadn't pulverized the Corbynites and destroyed their credibility even amongst the membership, they'd have the Labour Party in a death grip to this day, with Starmer bravely 'opposing' from within by, er, saying and doing nothing at all.

    You're welcome, sane lefties.
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    kle4 said:

    Apparently they might hold back payment or not order supplementary doses.

    That'll help get more vaccines sooner.
    After all, they are the only potential buyers and nobody else in the world wants the vaccine....
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    kle4 said:

    It's just hard to envisage why you wouldn't authorise helmets, even if you wanted a 'soft' policing approach for the day.

    Though a good rule of thumb is people are usually wrong when calling something a smoking gun.
    This looks pretty bad though given Trump put Miller in charge of the DoD a few weeks earlier
    Sure, but for the Senate trial at least it's all pretty irrelevant when 55 Senators don't think it appropriate to even hold the trial after Trump has left office.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kle4 said:

    It's just hard to envisage why you wouldn't authorise helmets, even if you wanted a 'soft' policing approach for the day.

    Though a good rule of thumb is people are usually wrong when calling something a smoking gun.
    Especially considering the way they tooled up for other demonstrations (whatever your view on those demos)
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    Sheesh. Even that achievement owes much more to Boris than to anyone else. If he hadn't pulverized the Corbynites and destroyed their credibility even amongst the membership, they'd have the Labour Party in a death grip to this day, with Starmer bravely 'opposing' from within by, er, saying and doing nothing at all.

    You're welcome, sane lefties.
    All 7 of you....... :wink:
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    Man who voted for leopards eating faces deal is against leopards eating faces.

    https://twitter.com/skinnock/status/1355832215121367041?s=21
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    .

    kle4 said:

    Apparently they might hold back payment or not order supplementary doses.

    That'll help get more vaccines sooner.
    “That thing that you’re making at no profit that we desperately want even though it’s useless... We’re not going to pay.”
    From elsewhere in the article: “If it turns out that companies have not respected their obligations, we will have to decide the legal consequences”.

    “We will have to decide”. Not sure that’s how the law works...
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    kle4 said:


    A big increase in second doses - possible shift in policy with Pfizer supplies at risk ?

    Might be that more people are now meeting the 'urgent need' or whatever it was calculation - that is, there were some who it was never felt could wait 12 weeks, but could 8 or so.
    That's certainly possible.

    I've always expected that the 12 weeks would be a maximum and that they would bring people in from around 8 weeks in case of missed appointments or other difficulties.
    I know somebody who was surprised to be called this week to get their 2nd jab only 8 weeks since they had their first.

    I think it's a bit organized chaos on the front line. No sure we can read too much into stories of this centre was closed that day, they told me no delivery tomorrow at such and such, this person got one way ahead of schedule.

    The underlying fact is they are doing lots of people and capacity is there to do even more.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kle4 said:

    Apparently they might hold back payment or not order supplementary doses.

    That'll help get more vaccines sooner.
    To think some thought they might have learnt from their mistakes - oh well
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited January 2021
    That New Statesman table shows that if Starmer continues to have a higher favourable rating in April than unfavourable 12 months after he was elected Labour leader he will be the most popular leader of the Opposition in the last 60 years after Blair and Wilson, both of whom went onto win a general election to become PM.

    Already he is doing as well as Heath, Cameron and Kinnock all of whom became PM apart from Kinnock after winning most seats at a general election and far better than Thatcher, Foot, Hague, IDS, Howard, Miliband and Corbyn all of whom never won a general election except for Thatcher of course.

    However unlike Blair and Wilson he cannot rely on a big Labour majority in Scotland, so on current polls he is still likely to need SNP support to get to No 10.
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    Man who voted for leopards eating faces deal is against leopards eating faces.

    https://twitter.com/skinnock/status/1355832215121367041?s=21

    How much steel production is there in NI?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    Remember those media stories that regions were getting shafted and only getting half or two thirds what they got previous weeks meaning widespread shortages...the numbers of actual jabs (and stored vaccines) don't really reflect these scare stories.

    1 1 million done in 2 days.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    It's just hard to envisage why you wouldn't authorise helmets, even if you wanted a 'soft' policing approach for the day.

    Though a good rule of thumb is people are usually wrong when calling something a smoking gun.
    This looks pretty bad though given Trump put Miller in charge of the DoD a few weeks earlier
    Sure, but for the Senate trial at least it's all pretty irrelevant when 55 Senators don't think it appropriate to even hold the trial after Trump has left office.
    I think the trial itself matters more than the verdict. The Dems will be able to get witnesses on the record describing Trump and his acolytes' attempts at sedition which should be campaign gold.

    It also seems clear that there will be at least 50 votes to convict, so unlike the Ukraine scandal a majority will have voted in favour of conviction.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    I agree.
    He looks like pm material, which goes a long way, especially in comparison with the last two Labour opposition leaders.
    My father a life long conservative rates him. Whether this is a good thing in the long run, who knows.
    Nevertheless I feel more comfortable with him as LOTO.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:


    A big increase in second doses - possible shift in policy with Pfizer supplies at risk ?

    Might be that more people are now meeting the 'urgent need' or whatever it was calculation - that is, there were some who it was never felt could wait 12 weeks, but could 8 or so.
    That's certainly possible.

    I've always expected that the 12 weeks would be a maximum and that they would bring people in from around 8 weeks in case of missed appointments or other difficulties.
    Could also be that some vaccination centres are finding it harder to find people amongst the priority cohorts, and are taking the opportunity (if permitted) to use spare vaccines on second doses.
    That's certainly possible as well.

    Didn't PB have anecdotes of people under 70 now receiving appointments ?
    One poster (unfortunately I don't remember which one) was quite categorical about being in their late 60s and having been invited - can't recall if they'd actually had the jab or just the appointment, but either way it does look like that's started happening, and we shouldn't be too surprised. The rate of progress is rapid (and may even be increasing, if today's numbers are anything to go by,) and it's not the same everywhere. If a GP has a certain number of doses available and too few patients left in cohort 4 willing and ready to take them, then they're obviously going to move on to cohort 5 straight away.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756

    Biologically, you might go for a hagfish.

    Or a lamprey or (being really original) a caecilian. But not so slimy, not by a long shot. Which is presumably the point of the expression.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    felix said:

    I am told by husband that about 598,000 jabs were administered in the UK yesterday, excluding NI (which should bring the total above 600k when it reports.) The cumulative total since the campaign began is also about three-quarters that of the entire European Union, which provides more context for the recent ructions.

    Good lord - that must make grim reading in Brussels...and Paris..Madrid...Berlin...Rome......
    Some of those are in bad situations, and the worry is they will delve deeper in conspiracy theories - I read on the BBC that things like the NI protocol debacle were not widely reported in Europe, and though presumably there's some press suggesting the Commission has messed up, it's hard to think 'Those nasty Brits (by which we mean a company, AZ), are hoarding supplies, look at how many they are doing' is an unpopular message.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    I am told by husband that about 598,000 jabs were administered in the UK yesterday, excluding NI (which should bring the total above 600k when it reports.) The cumulative total since the campaign began is also about three-quarters that of the entire European Union, which provides more context for the recent ructions.

    That would be wonderful news

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    The problem with this is that it is always easy to be a 'personality' spouting off without having to worry about either the bigger picture or any unforeseen (at least by you) or even apparent consequences of your comments or suggestions.

    I am not saying Rashford, as an example, is wrong in what he wants - though I would draw the line in saying the same thing about Morgan - but he is not the one who has to find the money or deal with the consequences when things don't go as the idealised plan had hoped.

    Starmer wants to lead the country. To do so he has to show he is measured and doesn't jump on bandwagons - unlike the current incumbent. This may make him appear cautious or boring but a lot of the time that is what is needed to get the job done.

    And for the record of course I am extremely unlikely to ever vote for Starmer. But that is not because he doesn't go off the deep end and spend his time pontificating on TV.

    Having others do the shouty stuff whilst the Leader aims at looking Prime Ministerial (tick) and offering better alternatives (work in progress at best) might be viewed as a sensible division of labour.
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    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,386
    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....
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    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    In the main they are still there in the wings waiting for another chance
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,756
    edited January 2021

    Man who voted for leopards eating faces deal is against leopards eating faces.

    https://twitter.com/skinnock/status/1355832215121367041?s=21

    How much steel production is there in NI?
    No, I think the point is steel exported from GB TO NI is counted in the quota.

    Tough on Harland & Wolff, and on Bombardier (if on value rather than weight).

    Edit: unless the stuff comes from rEU.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    The UK's shortages aren't apparent? The UK was promised millions before the end of the year.
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    Yorkcity said:

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    I agree.
    He looks like pm material, which goes a long way, especially in comparison with the last two Labour opposition leaders.
    My father a life long conservative rates him. Whether this is a good thing in the long run, who knows.
    Nevertheless I feel more comfortable with him as LOTO.
    I don’t think anyone is actually scared of the idea of him as PM. It’s a low bar, but he’s cleared it. People might be worried about some of the residual Corbynites in the party, but those who think deeply about politics will also be aware that if he secures a majority he will have 100 new MPs in his image who are not on the lunatic fringe.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. City, aye. I'm not enthused, but I can easily avoid voting Conservative next time (if the clown is there) without worrying I'm letting in Communist lunatics.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021
    Floater said:

    kle4 said:

    It's just hard to envisage why you wouldn't authorise helmets, even if you wanted a 'soft' policing approach for the day.

    Though a good rule of thumb is people are usually wrong when calling something a smoking gun.
    Especially considering the way they tooled up for other demonstrations (whatever your view on those demos)
    The argument put is that the response to the earlier demonstrations (and the related criticism) informed the desire for a "low key presence" in Washington on the day. But it seems to me that this memo goes way beyond that, including introducing quite far reaching terms of engagement even if things were to turn nasty.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited January 2021
    At the moment we are trying to watch TV whilst being subjected to (admittedly fairly low volume) Spice Girls music from downstairs.

    The background music is not, however, nearly so painful as the realisation that we remember when the Spice Girls were a new thing, whereas she was at most at playgroup and may even have been a foetus at the time.

    We feel old.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    felix said:

    I am told by husband that about 598,000 jabs were administered in the UK yesterday, excluding NI (which should bring the total above 600k when it reports.) The cumulative total since the campaign began is also about three-quarters that of the entire European Union, which provides more context for the recent ructions.

    Good lord - that must make grim reading in Brussels...and Paris..Madrid...Berlin...Rome......
    Some of those are in bad situations, and the worry is they will delve deeper in conspiracy theories - I read on the BBC that things like the NI protocol debacle were not widely reported in Europe, and though presumably there's some press suggesting the Commission has messed up, it's hard to think 'Those nasty Brits (by which we mean a company, AZ), are hoarding supplies, look at how many they are doing' is an unpopular message.
    The conspiracy is being repeated over and over again. There was a link last night to an article to a former Guardian / Buzzfeed UK journalist who had done a piece that again said AZN dead slow, but never a problem for the UK, they got all theirs on time, nudge nudge wink wink....which is verified bollocks and being a former UK newspaper journalist will know this / can easily check.
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    Carnyx said:

    Man who voted for leopards eating faces deal is against leopards eating faces.

    https://twitter.com/skinnock/status/1355832215121367041?s=21

    How much steel production is there in NI?
    No, I think the point is steel exported from GB TO NI is counted in the quota.

    Tough on Harland & Wolff, and on Bombardier (if on value rather than weight).

    Edit: unless the stuff comes from rEU.
    Oh, I’m with you now. Yeah that’s not great.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,388
    edited January 2021

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    Sheesh. Even that achievement owes much more to Boris than to anyone else. If he hadn't pulverized the Corbynites and destroyed their credibility even amongst the membership, they'd have the Labour Party in a death grip to this day, with Starmer bravely 'opposing' from within by, er, saying and doing nothing at all.

    You're welcome, sane lefties.
    Boris won in 2019 by lifting wholesale Corbyn's 2017 platform, with added Brexity goodness.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    It has become apparent though, it was reported that less than expected had been received.

    Perhaps something will emerge in time, but it is simply unacceptable for senior politicians and the European ommission to make allegations without proof, seemingly on the basis of 'it doesn't look right', and a deliberate misunderstanding of how the UK was also affected by delivery issues.

    And presuming it is fanboys alone who have been recognising the good outcomes of the UK programe vs the EU one, is to ignore the virulent Boris critics who have made precisely the same points.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    Sheesh. Even that achievement owes much more to Boris than to anyone else. If he hadn't pulverized the Corbynites and destroyed their credibility even amongst the membership, they'd have the Labour Party in a death grip to this day, with Starmer bravely 'opposing' from within by, er, saying and doing nothing at all.

    You're welcome, sane lefties.
    Boris won in 2019 by lifting wholesale Corbyn's 2017 platform, with added Brexity goodness.
    I think they left out the anti semitism for a start......
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,715

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    A bit more on why Erasmus is a proper exchange and Turing isn't and why that is critical to the success of the scheme.

    The UK university is looking for two things from a Student travel scheme: 1) The benefit of a year abroad that they can sell to prospective students; 2) and most important, hang onto the fee while the student is abroad.

    With Erasmus, the home university keeps their student's fee. It has some extra costs to look after their own students abroad and foreign students in its university, which can be put down to a marketing expense. Apart from that the scheme is broadly cost and revenue neutral, even if the university ends up taking a few more students than it puts in.

    The university has no interest in Turing if it means losing the fee it would otherwise get, the foreign university won't take additional students without a fee and the student doesn't want to pay twice. To make Turing work, University A in the UK will need to do a bilateral arrangement with University B someplace else, where each university holds onto their respective fees. This massively limits the choice to those other universities that your university has done a deal with, whereas with Erasmus in principle you can go to any university in the scheme. It also requires universities to make their own arrangements, whereas Erasmus will do that for them.

    It is a cost/benefit analysis.

    For the Erasmus scheme, how much would the UK have to have paid to join. What would the cost per UK exchange student have been?

    I think Switzerland went through this, and similarly concluded -- like the UK -- that the EU offered a very expensive deal for Switzerland to join Erasmus. I believe Switzerland created its own scheme (Swiss Programme for Erasmus+)

    "Since 2014, Switzerland has no longer been a programme country of Erasmus+, but a partner country. To enable Swiss institutions to continue taking part in cooperation and mobility activities with the Erasmus+ programme countries, the Federal Council adopted an interim solution financed with Swiss funds. This Swiss programme for Erasmus+ funds the participation of people and institutions from Switzerland (outgoing). In order to offer reciprocity, financial support is also provided for people and institutions from Europe to spend a period of time in Switzerland (incoming)."

    I am all in favour of university exchanges (though it is a middle-class perk, unfortunately). I am happy to wait for details of the Turing scheme because no-on is exchanging anywhere at the moment.

    But, if the Swiss can do it, I honestly don't see what the problem is in running our own scheme.

    Of course, if the cost per student is lower and less is spent on administration, more students can benefit from the scheme.
    I highlighted the key point in your comment. It kind of doubles the cost compared with Erasmus*. The Swiss got thrown out of Erasmus, I believe, so it wasn't by choice. Of course that in itself may be an issue in terms of UK participation in the scheme. The point I am making is that Erasmus is by far the better scheme because it's a functioning exchange based on reciprocity. Whether the UK wants to be part of it is another matter.

    * Edit I understand from the costing of the Turing scheme, the UK government doesn't intend to fund incoming students. Unless you get a two way flow, Turing will fail.
    I actually wanted you to answer the first two questions about money, which you predictably enough did not.

    The Swiss were thrown out. The problems were resolved. The Swiss applied to rejoin Erasmus. The EU quoted them an a price. The Swiss rejected the offer to rejoin because it was too pricey. (So I believe the UK Government on this one -- that the EU tried to price-gouge them). Then, the Swiss created their own scheme.

    I do not believe that the Swiss scheme is double the cost of what the Swiss were offered to join ERASMUS. Prove it.

    (A little personal history: I was mildly in favour of the EU. I became involved (in a small way) in the administration, not of Erasmus, but of a somewhat similar scheme, called the Marie Sklodowska-Curie Fellowship. It was very profitable for me, but the waste of money in the administration was truly enormous. I became mildly against the EU).
    I addressed your cost issue by pointing out the Swiss scheme has very significant extra costs that don't exist in Erasmus. Don't much appreciate your "predictably enough" snideness. Especially as you are wrong in your assertion there.
    So, you are saying the Swiss rejected the EU's proposal to join Erasmus on the grounds of cost .. and then devised a much more expensive scheme.

    I am calling bullshit on that.

    If you are not in the EU, the fee for a country to join Erasmus is based on a country's GDP. That is why it is very expensive for Switzerland or the UK to join.

    That is why it is much more expensive for Switzerland to join Erasmus than to run its own scheme.

    So you are wrong.

    But, I think we can trust the Swiss, no? ..... The Swiss are certainly very good with money, they will have worked out what is best for Switzerland.
    I might, or might not, be wrong if I had said that, but I didn't. Not impressed by your strawman.
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,541
    The way for SKS and Labour to make their mark and not be seen as unfair to the government (and Boris in particular) is rather than attacking and droning on, to set out and keep setting out a series of brilliant and credible solutions to the problems of our era.

    He also has to solve the problem that he can't win without Scotland and is committed to a policy which most Scots oppose, and those who support believe Labour is ideologically half hearted about. So he needs SNP support while not letting them win what they want.

    They had a leader a bit ago who could do all that without pausing for breath. He pops up on the media occasionally to show how it's done.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Urquhart, aye.

    And soon the media will be wibbling about the mainstream news losing viewership/readers. If they talked less bollocks, they'd have a bigger audience and more respect.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    Remember those media stories that regions were getting shafted and only getting half or two thirds what they got previous weeks meaning widespread shortages...the numbers of actual jabs (and stored vaccines) don't really reflect these scare stories.

    1 1 million done in 2 days.

    Numbers were down significantly on the previous week early on, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn that big deliveries were shipped out on Wednesday.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    Remember those media stories that regions were getting shafted and only getting half or two thirds what they got previous weeks meaning widespread shortages...the numbers of actual jabs (and stored vaccines) don't really reflect these scare stories.

    1 1 million done in 2 days.

    Numbers were down significantly on the previous week early on, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn that big deliveries were shipped out on Wednesday.
    I am sure that is true, but the reporting they don't consider this. They get one number and extrapolate. As I say I think there is a certain amount of organized chaos on the front line, but higher up the chain they seem to be doing an incredible calm job.

    Very few people are seeing the full picture and that is a good thing as otherwise we will have daily battles breaking out about why Hull got this and Bradford didn't and my granny told me that her friend Lil got her send jab in 6 weeks and I was told 10 weeks, but there are spare vaccines.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,405

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    The shortfall of production for all vaccines has been frequently discussed in the media. This applied to the UK plants as well.

    We were supposed to be on 4m jabs per week by now - that was the original planned capacity of the UK pipeline.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    It has become apparent though, it was reported that less than expected had been received.

    Perhaps something will emerge in time, but it is simply unacceptable for senior politicians and the European ommission to make allegations without proof, seemingly on the basis of 'it doesn't look right', and a deliberate misunderstanding of how the UK was also affected by delivery issues.

    And presuming it is fanboys alone who have been recognising the good outcomes of the UK programe vs the EU one, is to ignore the virulent Boris critics who have made precisely the same points.
    I actually think that they quite probably recognise that there are no ongoing benefits to be gained by engaging in political postering and ramping up inter country conflict over vaccines or anything else. Why get involved when they have a solid commitment from the EU to respect contracts, and they believe the contracts are on the UK's side? In fact, this probably explains why the EU are attempting to drag the UK govt into their claimed conspiracies.

    Also, even if there was some AZ EU produced vaccine sent to the UK in the early weeks of the rollout (prior to EMA authorisations) then it's unlikely that volumes were such that they can't easily be replaced on a like for like basis. We're talking a couple of million (probably more like a few hundred thousand) at most - not quite the 10s of millions that the EU are demanding.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,634
    "Flu is 'almost wiped out' and at lowest level in 130 years as seasonal virus plummets by 95%"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9206071/Flu-wiped-lowest-level-130-YEARS-seasonal-virus-plummets-95.html
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
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    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,386
    RobD said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    The UK's shortages aren't apparent? The UK was promised millions before the end of the year.
    Yes, but we can't inject millions at once.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,388
    edited January 2021
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    RobD said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    The UK's shortages aren't apparent? The UK was promised millions before the end of the year.
    Yes, but we can't inject millions at once.
    What's that got to do with the contract? The contract only refers to the delivery of vaccines. To claim that the UK has not experienced the same supply disruptions as the EU is totally dishonest.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,634
    MaxPB said:

    On topic, completely agree with the sentiment. It's become a running joke among my friends about Starmer being so useless. The memes are coming and that's not a good sign for him.

    Being compared to Gordon Brittas is the one that sticks in mind.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Andy_JS said:

    "Flu is 'almost wiped out' and at lowest level in 130 years as seasonal virus plummets by 95%"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9206071/Flu-wiped-lowest-level-130-YEARS-seasonal-virus-plummets-95.html

    Is it actually theoretically possible for the seasonal flu that has been around for a hundred years, originating in the flu of 1918-19 could actually be eliminated? Would have a degree of irony, now there is a ready made alternative...
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,405
    edited January 2021

    RobD said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    The UK's shortages aren't apparent? The UK was promised millions before the end of the year.
    Yes, but we can't inject millions at once.
    Yes, you can. 1 million a day is perfect possible in the current UK system, if the vaccine is there. Probably more.

    Instead we have vaccine centres shutting for the week on a Thursday because they have used up their supply.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    kle4 said:

    Remember those media stories that regions were getting shafted and only getting half or two thirds what they got previous weeks meaning widespread shortages...the numbers of actual jabs (and stored vaccines) don't really reflect these scare stories.

    1 1 million done in 2 days.

    Numbers were down significantly on the previous week early on, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn that big deliveries were shipped out on Wednesday.
    I am sure that is true, but the reporting they don't consider this. They get one number and extrapolate. As I say I think there is a certain amount of organized chaos on the front line, but higher up the chain they seem to be doing an incredible calm job.

    Very few people are seeing the full picture and that is a good thing as otherwise we will have daily battles breaking out about why Hull got this and Bradford didn't and my granny told me that her friend Lil got her send jab in 6 weeks and I was told 10 weeks, but there are spare vaccines.
    It's a tricky thing. Scrutiny and detail are important things, but sometimes that will get in the way of something important and needs to wait.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Floater said:
    Although "herd immunity" doesn't have to be the only way out. The other is a less dangerous endemic virus.
This discussion has been closed.