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Starmer, not up to it? – politicalbetting.com

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. L, the economic challenges we'll face in a post-COVID-19 world presents an opportunity for Sir Keir to present a view of how the country should adapt. Whether he will or not, remains to be seen.

    He'll fare better against the flashy but insubstantial incumbent than he would against Sunak.
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    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    Sheesh. Even that achievement owes much more to Boris than to anyone else. If he hadn't pulverized the Corbynites and destroyed their credibility even amongst the membership, they'd have the Labour Party in a death grip to this day, with Starmer bravely 'opposing' from within by, er, saying and doing nothing at all.

    You're welcome, sane lefties.
    Boris won in 2019 by lifting wholesale Corbyn's 2017 platform, with added Brexity goodness.
    But a whole lot less antisemitism, socialism, and anti-Britishness...
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    kle4 said:

    felix said:

    alex_ said:

    Incredible effort from the jabbers...

    Highest yet and up over 105,000 vs last week in England. Scotland running at less than half the rate of England.

    I wonder how much the EU vaccination rates are affected by employment rules and general working culture etc in various countries? One thing I think we do have in the UK (especially in smaller organisations - probably like GP surgeries) is a strong culture of "mucking in" in emergencies and a preparedness to work around the clock (in many cases for little or no extra reward). If you were looking for similar situations in EU countries, which particular ones would you look to?
    In Spain only registered nurse can do them and they are following the Pfiser second dose rule rigidly resulting in considerable wastage not to mention the 700+ cases so far of politicos, generals and bishops who've jumped the queue...
    Are there figures on how many have been wasted?
    No details except I read that several thousand were binned in Catalonia.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,678
    edited January 2021
    This is an amazing achievement yesterday.

    https://twitter.com/LBCNews/status/1355881096626532359
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,436
    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    It has become apparent though, it was reported that less than expected had been received.

    Perhaps something will emerge in time, but it is simply unacceptable for senior politicians and the European ommission to make allegations without proof, seemingly on the basis of 'it doesn't look right', and a deliberate misunderstanding of how the UK was also affected by delivery issues.

    And presuming it is fanboys alone who have been recognising the good outcomes of the UK programe vs the EU one, is to ignore the virulent Boris critics who have made precisely the same points.
    I actually think that they quite probably recognise that there are no ongoing benefits to be gained by engaging in political postering and ramping up inter country conflict over vaccines or anything else. Why get involved when they have a solid commitment from the EU to respect contracts, and they believe the contracts are on the UK's side? In fact, this probably explains why the EU are attempting to drag the UK govt into their claimed conspiracies.

    Also, even if there was some AZ EU produced vaccine sent to the UK in the early weeks of the rollout (prior to EMA authorisations) then it's unlikely that volumes were such that they can't easily be replaced on a like for like basis. We're talking a couple of million (probably more like a few hundred thousand) at most - not quite the 10s of millions that the EU are demanding.
    Early in the rollout of AZN, some was sent from the facility in Belgium, because the UK plant was still ramping up. It should be remembered that at that point it was not authorised for use in the EU.
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    At the moment we are trying to watch TV whilst being subjected to (admittedly fairly low volume) Spice Girls music from downstairs.

    The background music is not, however, nearly so painful as the realisation that we remember when the Spice Girls were a new thing, whereas she was at most at playgroup and may even have been a foetus at the time.

    We feel old.

    Met a girl called Trinity the other day "after someone in an old film".
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    edited January 2021
    Starmer - fun to speculate but it really is too early. Not only is the jury not out, proceedings have barely begun. My hunch, FWIW, is that politics has become reality TV and to his great credit Starmer fails abjectly to give the mass audience the sort of tat they want. If I'm right it means that although his strategy - purge the left, do not frighten the horses, look patriotic & competent & trustworthy, save the vision for later - makes perfect sense, and is what I'd be doing now in his position, it will lead to a runners-up spot at the next election. But I hope I'm not right and I'm probably not. It's not the strongest hunch I've ever had. So, Keir, if you're reading this just ignore it completely. Keep up the good work. Love you man.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1355890852095258626

    To think we got these sort of details days ago from some of our posters
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,436
    kle4 said:

    Remember those media stories that regions were getting shafted and only getting half or two thirds what they got previous weeks meaning widespread shortages...the numbers of actual jabs (and stored vaccines) don't really reflect these scare stories.

    1 1 million done in 2 days.

    Numbers were down significantly on the previous week early on, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn that big deliveries were shipped out on Wednesday.
    Yes, see this -

    image
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    Mr. L, the economic challenges we'll face in a post-COVID-19 world presents an opportunity for Sir Keir to present a view of how the country should adapt. Whether he will or not, remains to be seen.

    He'll fare better against the flashy but insubstantial incumbent than he would against Sunak.

    Agree with first point. Don't agree with the second. Boris is extremely difficult to beat in elections and this is for good reasons.
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    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Worth pointing out that Israel - even though they have a far higher vaccination rate than we do - has not until today seen the same drop in infection rates that the UK has seen recently. They are doing many things right but clearly not everything so we should not automatically look to them for all the answers.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    alex_ said:

    kle4 said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    It has become apparent though, it was reported that less than expected had been received.

    Perhaps something will emerge in time, but it is simply unacceptable for senior politicians and the European ommission to make allegations without proof, seemingly on the basis of 'it doesn't look right', and a deliberate misunderstanding of how the UK was also affected by delivery issues.

    And presuming it is fanboys alone who have been recognising the good outcomes of the UK programe vs the EU one, is to ignore the virulent Boris critics who have made precisely the same points.
    I actually think that they quite probably recognise that there are no ongoing benefits to be gained by engaging in political postering and ramping up inter country conflict over vaccines or anything else. Why get involved when they have a solid commitment from the EU to respect contracts, and they believe the contracts are on the UK's side? In fact, this probably explains why the EU are attempting to drag the UK govt into their claimed conspiracies.

    Also, even if there was some AZ EU produced vaccine sent to the UK in the early weeks of the rollout (prior to EMA authorisations) then it's unlikely that volumes were such that they can't easily be replaced on a like for like basis. We're talking a couple of million (probably more like a few hundred thousand) at most - not quite the 10s of millions that the EU are demanding.
    Early in the rollout of AZN, some was sent from the facility in Belgium, because the UK plant was still ramping up. It should be remembered that at that point it was not authorised for use in the EU.
    Is that actually true, or speculation? The EU argument is that, even though it hadn't been authorised, it should have been stored pending approval. Although, as i say, easily rectified.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Remember those media stories that regions were getting shafted and only getting half or two thirds what they got previous weeks meaning widespread shortages...the numbers of actual jabs (and stored vaccines) don't really reflect these scare stories.

    1 1 million done in 2 days.

    Numbers were down significantly on the previous week early on, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn that big deliveries were shipped out on Wednesday.
    I am sure that is true, but the reporting they don't consider this. They get one number and extrapolate. As I say I think there is a certain amount of organized chaos on the front line, but higher up the chain they seem to be doing an incredible calm job.

    Very few people are seeing the full picture and that is a good thing as otherwise we will have daily battles breaking out about why Hull got this and Bradford didn't and my granny told me that her friend Lil got her send jab in 6 weeks and I was told 10 weeks, but there are spare vaccines.
    It's a tricky thing. Scrutiny and detail are important things, but sometimes that will get in the way of something important and needs to wait.
    In this case, speed is everything. I am quite comfortable will the level of scrutiny in terms of the released numbers of delivery across the countries / regions and now in terms of demographic breakdowns.

    It would quickly become obvious if the UK government were specifically targeting certain regions or groups for inferior access.
  • Options

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    Sheesh. Even that achievement owes much more to Boris than to anyone else. If he hadn't pulverized the Corbynites and destroyed their credibility even amongst the membership, they'd have the Labour Party in a death grip to this day, with Starmer bravely 'opposing' from within by, er, saying and doing nothing at all.

    You're welcome, sane lefties.
    Boris won in 2019 by lifting wholesale Corbyn's 2017 platform, with added Brexity goodness.
    But a whole lot less antisemitism, socialism, and anti-Britishness...
    The Americans think it is Boris who is racist; Thatcherite Conservatives would surely label Boris's economic plans as socialist; and it is Boris who is in danger of losing two of the four countries comprising Britain.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,343
    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    This has of course occurred to Labour, but our judgment is that new policies will at best not get a serious hearing (we had a go with his regional proposals - remember those? No, right?) and at worst be seen as a distraction from the business of the day, getting rid of Covid. Suppose Labour now put forward well-considered proposals for improving schools from 2024. Teachers might be interested; nobody else will care.

    The strategy is to be sober, constructive and occasionally critical of the Covid effort, and await the moment when people say "OK, that's largely out of the way. What now?" The parallel is wartime - Labour said very little about future plans, if they had any, in 1941, but by 1945 the "Now win the peace" slogan was irresistible. Very different times, perhaps not a guide - but it perhaps illustrates the strategy.
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    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,389
    kle4 said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    It has become apparent though, it was reported that less than expected had been received.

    Perhaps something will emerge in time, but it is simply unacceptable for senior politicians and the European ommission to make allegations without proof, seemingly on the basis of 'it doesn't look right', and a deliberate misunderstanding of how the UK was also affected by delivery issues.

    And presuming it is fanboys alone who have been recognising the good outcomes of the UK programe vs the EU one, is to ignore the virulent Boris critics who have made precisely the same points.
    I am aware that there was universal condemnation of the EU and acknowledgement of the UK vaccination success, which I totally agree with btw. It's just that the last time there was so much virtual champagne being spaffed about was on the night Johnson got his 80 seat majority. I remember Leon was on the verge of challenging Meeks, if he was to appear on the channel, like a schoolboy at the gate!
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    HYUFD said:
    Personally, I think this is overly pessimistic. Each month, we shall have both more vaccine options and greater production capacity. As soon as countries such as the UK and the US have got their populations vaccinated to the extent possible, they will be turning their production to their neighbors and to the world's hot spots.

    Expect countries with lots of HIV and TB patients (i.e. with lots of chronically immune-suppressed) to queue-jump in terms of international assistance as these will be the communities from which new (potentially nastier, faster, or immune-defeating) strains emerge most frequently.

    My own best bet is that most Europe, ANZ and North America will be done by end 2021, and Latin America and Asia will be vaccinated by mid-2022. Africa is the big worry.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    Labour stands by teacher vaccination policy

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55877699

    This is another firebreak "policy". If the government don't do it and things go OK, nobody remembers. If it goes badly, Labour will see. And if the government do, Labour will say we were leading on this issue.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited January 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    This is an amazing achievement yesterday.

    https://twitter.com/LBCNews/status/1355881096626532359

    8.9 million people = approximately 1 in 6 of the adult population.
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    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,389

    Andy_JS said:

    This is an amazing achievement yesterday.

    https://twitter.com/LBCNews/status/1355881096626532359

    Approximately 1 in 6 of the adult population.
    +1
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,797

    kle4 said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    It has become apparent though, it was reported that less than expected had been received.

    Perhaps something will emerge in time, but it is simply unacceptable for senior politicians and the European ommission to make allegations without proof, seemingly on the basis of 'it doesn't look right', and a deliberate misunderstanding of how the UK was also affected by delivery issues.

    And presuming it is fanboys alone who have been recognising the good outcomes of the UK programe vs the EU one, is to ignore the virulent Boris critics who have made precisely the same points.
    I am aware that there was universal condemnation of the EU and acknowledgement of the UK vaccination success, which I totally agree with btw. It's just that the last time there was so much virtual champagne being spaffed about was on the night Johnson got his 80 seat majority. !
    None of which lends weight to the idea there is a conspiracy going on because Johnson has, for once, behaved responsibly in response to the EU cock up by not responding in kind.

    It's such a serious accusation that at least some smoke should be seen before we yell fire.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited January 2021

    Labour stands by teacher vaccination policy

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55877699

    This is another firebreak "policy". If the government don't do it and things go OK, nobody remembers. If it goes badly, Labour will see. And if the government do, Labour will say we were leading on this issue.



    What evidence do they want the JCVI to look at? The ONS has already said that teachers are no more at risk than the general population.
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    Floater said:

    Sir Keir is an order of magnitude than his predecessor and that ought not be forgotten.

    No easy trying to be the opposition during a time like this. He has made some missteps, but simply ending the lunatic fringe that had a grip on Labour is a substantial positive for the whole country.

    Sheesh. Even that achievement owes much more to Boris than to anyone else. If he hadn't pulverized the Corbynites and destroyed their credibility even amongst the membership, they'd have the Labour Party in a death grip to this day, with Starmer bravely 'opposing' from within by, er, saying and doing nothing at all.

    You're welcome, sane lefties.
    Boris won in 2019 by lifting wholesale Corbyn's 2017 platform, with added Brexity goodness.
    I think they left out the anti semitism for a start......
    I can't remember anything specific about closing zoos, either.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    SKS ... I suspect he was the wrong choice. The Labour party had much more attractive options available & should have taken them. They have Aderns aplenty.

    Surrounded by a photogenic & lively team, SKS may look better. He looks old & grey, solid & dull. He should probably try and present himself -- like Biden did -- as a transitional figure to a fresh generation.

    But, so far, SKS hasn't found his equivalent of Mayor Peter or Kamala Harris.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    kle4 said:

    felix said:

    I am told by husband that about 598,000 jabs were administered in the UK yesterday, excluding NI (which should bring the total above 600k when it reports.) The cumulative total since the campaign began is also about three-quarters that of the entire European Union, which provides more context for the recent ructions.

    Good lord - that must make grim reading in Brussels...and Paris..Madrid...Berlin...Rome......
    Some of those are in bad situations, and the worry is they will delve deeper in conspiracy theories - I read on the BBC that things like the NI protocol debacle were not widely reported in Europe, and though presumably there's some press suggesting the Commission has messed up, it's hard to think 'Those nasty Brits (by which we mean a company, AZ), are hoarding supplies, look at how many they are doing' is an unpopular message.

    If so it is not there in the Spanish press or from Spanish FB friends. To be honest there is little about vaccines at all other than from English people here and even this is mostly resignation. The biggest issue here really is about the loss of tourists for another year but even that is pretty quiet.
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    kle4 said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    It has become apparent though, it was reported that less than expected had been received.

    Perhaps something will emerge in time, but it is simply unacceptable for senior politicians and the European ommission to make allegations without proof, seemingly on the basis of 'it doesn't look right', and a deliberate misunderstanding of how the UK was also affected by delivery issues.

    And presuming it is fanboys alone who have been recognising the good outcomes of the UK programe vs the EU one, is to ignore the virulent Boris critics who have made precisely the same points.
    'European omission' is a wonderful typo :)
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    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....
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    CLOSE THE ZOOS
    KILL THE GRANDPARENTS
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    DavidL said:

    Mr. L, the economic challenges we'll face in a post-COVID-19 world presents an opportunity for Sir Keir to present a view of how the country should adapt. Whether he will or not, remains to be seen.

    He'll fare better against the flashy but insubstantial incumbent than he would against Sunak.

    Agree with first point. Don't agree with the second. Boris is extremely difficult to beat in elections and this is for good reasons.
    Sunak gives the impression of believing in things. I'm not entirely sure what they are, but he doesn't have BoJo's ability to slip away when grabbed.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,148
    Floater said:
    You could look at it both ways. The safest way to herd immunity takes longer. But a more tranmissable virus also means the more deadly, painful, way to herd immunity doesn't take as long. We appear (fingers crossed) to have had some success with our home grow variant even with a less well observed lockdown. As has South Africa. I still wonder if that is because it ripped through the community before anyone realised what was happening. The Kent variant was found in September.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,797
    edited January 2021

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    As expected 'unity' is being prized above any accountability. That Bloomberg report made clear her office must have approved that whole Northern Ireland business, which everyone has agreed to lie about and pretend was an oversight, but because it would upset people, her failure must be ignored.

    The EU is in a strong state, institutionally. They have to get past the idea that any criticism of EU leaders is an attack on the unity of the bloc - it's juvenille and will not help them address actual problems when they occur.
  • Options

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    They have made political capital out of it by doing exactly what they have done - saying nothing unless absolutely necessary. First and foremost this was an argument between AZN and the EU. By standing aloof until it directly threatened us - such as banning exports or invoking article 16 - and then simply registering concern, they have done for more for both their cause and the British position in all of this than if they had started shouting and making overt capital out of it.

    It is far more adult a position than I ever expected from Johnson. I fear it won't last.
    Once again it has shown the benefits of not having Cummings/Caine texting journalists with an aggressive line every five mins.
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    MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    This has of course occurred to Labour, but our judgment is that new policies will at best not get a serious hearing (we had a go with his regional proposals - remember those? No, right?) and at worst be seen as a distraction from the business of the day, getting rid of Covid. Suppose Labour now put forward well-considered proposals for improving schools from 2024. Teachers might be interested; nobody else will care.

    The strategy is to be sober, constructive and occasionally critical of the Covid effort, and await the moment when people say "OK, that's largely out of the way. What now?" The parallel is wartime - Labour said very little about future plans, if they had any, in 1941, but by 1945 the "Now win the peace" slogan was irresistible. Very different times, perhaps not a guide - but it perhaps illustrates the strategy.
    I think the problem there Nick is that Starmer and his team are not really demonstrating they are capable of big, bold policies which change the public conversation. I agree it's hard at the moment for them given both the vaccine rollout and also that the Government's furlough schemes and business lending have stopped mass unemployment and enabled businesses to survive in a "deep freeze" element, and people give the Government credit for that. But, as others have said, what exactly is Starmer offering? It is too early for detail but it would be nice to have an idea of his broad brush view on the world. The only thing that sticks in my head at the moment is him taking the bended knee.
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    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    Beyond doing lots of stamping their feet, and making accusatory public statements about AZ and UK for domestic political consumption, i genuinely hope that they are beneath the surface actually taking some meaningful steps to improve vaccine manufacture and supply to address the shortfalls. Even if they don't bear fruit for a few weeks/months.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Scientists have reported that teachers are at no more than the average level of risk - unlike certain other professions

    Again - you seem to want to ignore the science
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,389

    RobD said:

    OT
    The thing I can't understand about the whole vaccination fiasco is why Johnson and Gove aren't jumping up and down trying to make political capital about this. Their fanbois on PB on Friday evening were in ecstacy about it all. I wonder if there is something in the argument that AZ unofficially diverted some jabs into the UK pile. I remember in the news back in December/January it was announced that there would be a shortage of jabs anyway due to underproduction. This doesn't seem to have become apparent, so perhaps there may have been a little back scratching going on.....

    The UK's shortages aren't apparent? The UK was promised millions before the end of the year.
    Yes, but we can't inject millions at once.
    Yes, you can. 1 million a day is perfect possible in the current UK system, if the vaccine is there. Probably more.

    Instead we have vaccine centres shutting for the week on a Thursday because they have used up their supply.
    apologies, I agree with you there.
  • Options

    CLOSE THE ZOOS
    KILL THE GRANDPARENTS

    See, you've not included the magic 'Labour' clause, now you're just coming across as unpleasant (plus a bit loony sounding if I'm honest).
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    CLOSE THE ZOOS
    KILL THE GRANDPARENTS

    We should definitely open the zoos.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,963
    edited January 2021
    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:
    Personally, I think this is overly pessimistic. Each month, we shall have both more vaccine options and greater production capacity. As soon as countries such as the UK and the US have got their populations vaccinated to the extent possible, they will be turning their production to their neighbors and to the world's hot spots.

    Expect countries with lots of HIV and TB patients (i.e. with lots of chronically immune-suppressed) to queue-jump in terms of international assistance as these will be the communities from which new (potentially nastier, faster, or immune-defeating) strains emerge most frequently.

    My own best bet is that most Europe, ANZ and North America will be done by end 2021, and Latin America and Asia will be vaccinated by mid-2022. Africa is the big worry.
    It is at this point I would be talking to the 'near room temperature' vaccine manufacturers about building production specifically to supply African countries paid for by the UK.

    Actually I would go one better than that.

    I would specifically target the vaccine poor Commonwealth countries paid for and supported by the vaccine rich/money rich Commonwealth countries. Show there is some real benefit for poorer countries being part of the Commonwealth. Call it the Commonwealth Vaccine Programme and richer countries can join as they get their own vaccine issues sorted out and feel able to take part.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,797
    edited January 2021
    If in one year, definitely.

    Of course, those not in the first tranche will probably find it hard to do it in future if the CCP has anything to say in response.
  • Options
    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    edited January 2021

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Worth pointing out that Israel - even though they have a far higher vaccination rate than we do - has not until today seen the same drop in infection rates that the UK has seen recently. They are doing many things right but clearly not everything so we should not automatically look to them for all the answers.
    And please, everyone, remember that a pandemic is not a nice Swiss watch mechanism. You can still do 'everything right' and have worse outcomes than another country not doing everything right. That is the nature of a complex adaptive system - they are not completely knowable, they are not predictable, and they are extremely sensitive to initial conditions. This makes them unmeasurable. Hence my continued frustration with nationalistic comparison of outcomes.

    The comparison is a wildfire. If there is a lot of dead scrub and there has been a long drought so everything is tinder dry, and there is a strong wind so plenty of oxygen, the conditions are ripe for a major fire if there are lightning strikes. However, even knowing all this, we cannot predict if a particular lightning strike will result in a massive wildfire or a couple of twigs sizzling for a few minutes. We can take measures to reduce the fuel in system to reduce our exposure, but we cannot absolutely prevent a wildfire, nor absolutely ensure than any fires will be small.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    This has of course occurred to Labour, but our judgment is that new policies will at best not get a serious hearing (we had a go with his regional proposals - remember those? No, right?) and at worst be seen as a distraction from the business of the day, getting rid of Covid. Suppose Labour now put forward well-considered proposals for improving schools from 2024. Teachers might be interested; nobody else will care.

    The strategy is to be sober, constructive and occasionally critical of the Covid effort, and await the moment when people say "OK, that's largely out of the way. What now?" The parallel is wartime - Labour said very little about future plans, if they had any, in 1941, but by 1945 the "Now win the peace" slogan was irresistible. Very different times, perhaps not a guide - but it perhaps illustrates the strategy.
    Yes. Absolutely no mileage in laying out vision & policies atm. If by the time the election comes the average floating voter is thinking, "Starmer? Yeah, I can see him as PM," it will be mission accomplished. You don't get a hearing for the offer if you don't clear that bar.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    CLOSE THE ZOOS
    KILL THE GRANDPARENTS

    Is that you Keir?
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Worth pointing out that Israel - even though they have a far higher vaccination rate than we do - has not until today seen the same drop in infection rates that the UK has seen recently. They are doing many things right but clearly not everything so we should not automatically look to them for all the answers.
    The issue is trying to disentangle any effect from vaccinations from the effect of changes in people's behaviour and compliance with safety precautions (masks, social distancing etc). The former effect is assumed to be strictly negative on infections, while the latter could be posiive or negative, and, at least in the short term, has the potential to be far more of a driver of movements in the infection rate.

    My understanding is that certain sectors of Israelis - never much ones for taking much notice of what their government says at the best of times - have pretty much stopped bothering to follow the restrictions. I'm not sure exactly why, although it could be that the efforts of public officials to enforce compliance are now rather more focused on getting the vaccine rollout to proceed, and have taken their eyes off the ball a bit.
  • Options

    CLOSE THE ZOOS
    KILL THE GRANDPARENTS

    Zoos are already closed. If you want grandparents to be prioritised, write to the Prime Minister. The current schedule takes no account of grandparenthood or the risk of children infecting their free after-school childminders.
  • Options

    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:
    Personally, I think this is overly pessimistic. Each month, we shall have both more vaccine options and greater production capacity. As soon as countries such as the UK and the US have got their populations vaccinated to the extent possible, they will be turning their production to their neighbors and to the world's hot spots.

    Expect countries with lots of HIV and TB patients (i.e. with lots of chronically immune-suppressed) to queue-jump in terms of international assistance as these will be the communities from which new (potentially nastier, faster, or immune-defeating) strains emerge most frequently.

    My own best bet is that most Europe, ANZ and North America will be done by end 2021, and Latin America and Asia will be vaccinated by mid-2022. Africa is the big worry.
    It is at this point I would be talking to the 'near room temperature' vaccine manufacturers about building production specifically to supply African countries paid for by the UK.

    Actually I would go one better than that.

    I would specifically target the vaccine poor Commonwealth countries paid for and supported by the vaccine rich/money rich Commonwealth countries. Show there is some real benefit for poorer countries being part of the Commonwealth. Call it the Commonwealth Vaccine Programme and richer countries can join as they get their own vaccine issues sorted out and feel able to take part.
    Sounds eminently sensible. A combination of being the right, humanitarian, thing; and also another counterbalance to China.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    The constant refrains about unity are getting more and more like 1950s Soviet collective farms and producing rather few tractors.. I wonder if we are next to be given details of a 5 year plan.............
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    kle4 said:
    Or one month.
  • Options
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Scientists have reported that teachers are at no more than the average level of risk - unlike certain other professions

    Again - you seem to want to ignore the science
    I'm not ignoring the science. I am predicting a change in government policy.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,436
    alex_ said:

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    Beyond doing lots of stamping their feet, and making accusatory public statements about AZ and UK for domestic political consumption, i genuinely hope that they are beneath the surface actually taking some meaningful steps to improve vaccine manufacture and supply to address the shortfalls. Even if they don't bear fruit for a few weeks/months.
    The other issue to put in place is a delivery system. From what I have seen, no-one in Europe (with the possible, partial, exception of Germany) has put the systems in place to go for vaccination rates of 0.5% or 1% of the population per day.

    Such system do not accidentally come into existence. Even the in US chaos, there was a very considerable effort to align their enormous healthcare system (however badly) to deliver.

    Hence

    https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-12-20..latest&country=USA~DEU~FRA&region=World&vaccinationsMetric=true&interval=smoothed&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations_per_hundred&pickerSort=desc
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    If in one year, definitely.

    Of course, those not in the first tranche will probably find it hard to do it in future if the CCP has anything to say in response.
    Depending on where they settle, that’s one hell of a voting block to push us to maintain a China-sceptic policy of nothing else.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,977
    IshmaelZ said:

    At the moment we are trying to watch TV whilst being subjected to (admittedly fairly low volume) Spice Girls music from downstairs.

    The background music is not, however, nearly so painful as the realisation that we remember when the Spice Girls were a new thing, whereas she was at most at playgroup and may even have been a foetus at the time.

    We feel old.

    Met a girl called Trinity the other day "after someone in an old film".
    Just got asked by youngest if I'd ever heard of a band called "The Smiths"?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    felix said:

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    The constant refrains about unity are getting more and more like 1950s Soviet collective farms and producing rather few tractors.. I wonder if we are next to be given details of a 5 year plan.............
    Its a bit like an insecure couple, who insist they must always go out together to things, must sit together and feel the need to constantly show supposed affection for one another when they are out with a group of friends.

    Where as the couples you know have a solid relationship, confidently have their own interests (often mocked by their other half), while still happy to mingle when out among their shared friends.
  • Options
    Endillion said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Worth pointing out that Israel - even though they have a far higher vaccination rate than we do - has not until today seen the same drop in infection rates that the UK has seen recently. They are doing many things right but clearly not everything so we should not automatically look to them for all the answers.
    The issue is trying to disentangle any effect from vaccinations from the effect of changes in people's behaviour and compliance with safety precautions (masks, social distancing etc). The former effect is assumed to be strictly negative on infections, while the latter could be posiive or negative, and, at least in the short term, has the potential to be far more of a driver of movements in the infection rate.

    My understanding is that certain sectors of Israelis - never much ones for taking much notice of what their government says at the best of times - have pretty much stopped bothering to follow the restrictions. I'm not sure exactly why, although it could be that the efforts of public officials to enforce compliance are now rather more focused on getting the vaccine rollout to proceed, and have taken their eyes off the ball a bit.
    Sadly, it turns out that some very religious groups are as sceptical in Israel as their counterparts around the world. Strange things can happen when you really do believe God is on your side (and ignore the possibility it is God who sent the vaccines).
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Scientists have reported that teachers are at no more than the average level of risk - unlike certain other professions

    Again - you seem to want to ignore the science
    I'm not ignoring the science. I am predicting a change in government policy.
    Of course it will change once the current priorities taken care of - that is a bit different than Labours position which is to elevate these people above the vulnerable

    Perhaps you missed teachers on here saying they did not agree with this?
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,148
    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:
    Personally, I think this is overly pessimistic. Each month, we shall have both more vaccine options and greater production capacity. As soon as countries such as the UK and the US have got their populations vaccinated to the extent possible, they will be turning their production to their neighbors and to the world's hot spots.

    Expect countries with lots of HIV and TB patients (i.e. with lots of chronically immune-suppressed) to queue-jump in terms of international assistance as these will be the communities from which new (potentially nastier, faster, or immune-defeating) strains emerge most frequently.

    My own best bet is that most Europe, ANZ and North America will be done by end 2021, and Latin America and Asia will be vaccinated by mid-2022. Africa is the big worry.
    I agree. I am not sure but this map does appear to assume static production capacity and vaccine options.
  • Options

    alex_ said:

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    Beyond doing lots of stamping their feet, and making accusatory public statements about AZ and UK for domestic political consumption, i genuinely hope that they are beneath the surface actually taking some meaningful steps to improve vaccine manufacture and supply to address the shortfalls. Even if they don't bear fruit for a few weeks/months.
    The other issue to put in place is a delivery system. From what I have seen, no-one in Europe (with the possible, partial, exception of Germany) has put the systems in place to go for vaccination rates of 0.5% or 1% of the population per day.

    Such system do not accidentally come into existence. Even the in US chaos, there was a very considerable effort to align their enormous healthcare system (however badly) to deliver.

    Hence

    https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-12-20..latest&country=USA~DEU~FRA&region=World&vaccinationsMetric=true&interval=smoothed&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations_per_hundred&pickerSort=desc
    Didn’t someone post last night to flag how relatively low flu vaccine success was in most EU countries compared to us? Delivery mechanisms etc.
  • Options
    dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    At the moment we are trying to watch TV whilst being subjected to (admittedly fairly low volume) Spice Girls music from downstairs.

    The background music is not, however, nearly so painful as the realisation that we remember when the Spice Girls were a new thing, whereas she was at most at playgroup and may even have been a foetus at the time.

    We feel old.

    Met a girl called Trinity the other day "after someone in an old film".
    Just got asked by youngest if I'd ever heard of a band called "The Smiths"?
    Just pray that they don't ask if that Morrisey guy is any good.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    This has of course occurred to Labour, but our judgment is that new policies will at best not get a serious hearing (we had a go with his regional proposals - remember those? No, right?) and at worst be seen as a distraction from the business of the day, getting rid of Covid. Suppose Labour now put forward well-considered proposals for improving schools from 2024. Teachers might be interested; nobody else will care.

    The strategy is to be sober, constructive and occasionally critical of the Covid effort, and await the moment when people say "OK, that's largely out of the way. What now?" The parallel is wartime - Labour said very little about future plans, if they had any, in 1941, but by 1945 the "Now win the peace" slogan was irresistible. Very different times, perhaps not a guide - but it perhaps illustrates the strategy.
    I think that this is a mistake but we shall see. I am not suggesting detailed plans of action, I am more suggesting principles, objectives, the what rather than the how. Starmer is bright and well meaning but he needs to show that he can lead, that he has that vision thing as opposed to being a competent functionary.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    felix said:

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    The constant refrains about unity are getting more and more like 1950s Soviet collective farms and producing rather few tractors.. I wonder if we are next to be given details of a 5 year plan.............
    Not sure 5 years is long enough ........
  • Options
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Scientists have reported that teachers are at no more than the average level of risk - unlike certain other professions

    Again - you seem to want to ignore the science
    I'm not ignoring the science. I am predicting a change in government policy.
    Of course it will change once the current priorities taken care of - that is a bit different than Labours position which is to elevate these people above the vulnerable

    Perhaps you missed teachers on here saying they did not agree with this?
    To repeat, I am not advocating change, I am predicting it. Israel came in at 55+ and we have not yet reached that group but we will soon.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465
    That's the entire run of Blake's 7 watched now.

    That ending. :|
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Was Attlee really so charismatic - particularly when compared to Churchill?
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    DavidL said:

    Mr. L, the economic challenges we'll face in a post-COVID-19 world presents an opportunity for Sir Keir to present a view of how the country should adapt. Whether he will or not, remains to be seen.

    He'll fare better against the flashy but insubstantial incumbent than he would against Sunak.

    Agree with first point. Don't agree with the second. Boris is extremely difficult to beat in elections and this is for good reasons.
    Sunak gives the impression of believing in things. I'm not entirely sure what they are, but he doesn't have BoJo's ability to slip away when grabbed.
    I'm so unclear as to whether you think this is a good thing or not.
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    felix said:

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    The constant refrains about unity are getting more and more like 1950s Soviet collective farms and producing rather few tractors.. I wonder if we are next to be given details of a 5 year plan.............
    Sickening ain't it?

    'Johnson’s ‘union task force’ to boost case for UK unity'

    https://tinyurl.com/y6y2noln
  • Options
    pingping Posts: 3,731
    edited January 2021

    Endillion said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Worth pointing out that Israel - even though they have a far higher vaccination rate than we do - has not until today seen the same drop in infection rates that the UK has seen recently. They are doing many things right but clearly not everything so we should not automatically look to them for all the answers.
    The issue is trying to disentangle any effect from vaccinations from the effect of changes in people's behaviour and compliance with safety precautions (masks, social distancing etc). The former effect is assumed to be strictly negative on infections, while the latter could be posiive or negative, and, at least in the short term, has the potential to be far more of a driver of movements in the infection rate.

    My understanding is that certain sectors of Israelis - never much ones for taking much notice of what their government says at the best of times - have pretty much stopped bothering to follow the restrictions. I'm not sure exactly why, although it could be that the efforts of public officials to enforce compliance are now rather more focused on getting the vaccine rollout to proceed, and have taken their eyes off the ball a bit.
    Sadly, it turns out that some very religious groups are as sceptical in Israel as their counterparts around the world. Strange things can happen when you really do believe God is on your side (and ignore the possibility it is God who sent the vaccines).
    What I wanna know is why their particularly cruel god sent us this damn virus.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited January 2021

    .

    kle4 said:

    Apparently they might hold back payment or not order supplementary doses.

    That'll help get more vaccines sooner.
    “That thing that you’re making at no profit that we desperately want even though it’s useless... We’re not going to pay.”
    From elsewhere in the article: “If it turns out that companies have not respected their obligations, we will have to decide the legal consequences”.

    “We will have to decide”. Not sure that’s how the law works...
    Not a problem. The EU are omnipotent gods.

    (In their minds....)
  • Options
    Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 2,757
    edited January 2021

    alex_ said:

    Portugal's Foreign Minister Augusto Santos Silva has defended European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and called for unity, after a week that saw tensions over the EU’s handling of its vaccine shortage crisis.

    "There is no reason for the leaders of Europe to argue. It is very important that we keep united," he told the BBC.

    "As holders of the rotating presidency of the Council of the European Union, Portugal fully supports Ursula von der Leyen - she’s doing a great effort to address the shortfalls of production of vaccines by first Pfizer and now AstraZeneca.

    I would hate to see what it would be like if she was doing poorly....

    Beyond doing lots of stamping their feet, and making accusatory public statements about AZ and UK for domestic political consumption, i genuinely hope that they are beneath the surface actually taking some meaningful steps to improve vaccine manufacture and supply to address the shortfalls. Even if they don't bear fruit for a few weeks/months.
    The other issue to put in place is a delivery system. From what I have seen, no-one in Europe (with the possible, partial, exception of Germany) has put the systems in place to go for vaccination rates of 0.5% or 1% of the population per day.

    Such system do not accidentally come into existence. Even the in US chaos, there was a very considerable effort to align their enormous healthcare system (however badly) to deliver.

    Hence

    https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-12-20..latest&country=USA~DEU~FRA&region=World&vaccinationsMetric=true&interval=smoothed&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations_per_hundred&pickerSort=desc
    Didn’t someone post last night to flag how relatively low flu vaccine success was in most EU countries compared to us? Delivery mechanisms etc.
    At least 27 different delivery systems. Maybe Belgium is blessed with two? Clearly the solution is More Europe. And retraining squaddies to give jabs may be an issue in countries such as France and the Netherlands where they are still fully employed fighting the citizenry.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,203

    That's the entire run of Blake's 7 watched now.

    That ending. :|

    No spoilers... just watched the first 6 eps of season one!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    Activists staging an underground protest in central London say an eviction team is in the process of forcing them out. HS2 Rebellion, who are camped out at Euston Square Gardens, say the team is burrowing a vertical tunnel causing crumbs of earth to fall around them.

    One protester said: "All night we've had rocks falling down onto our head through the gaps.

    "They've kept us awake all night for hours and hours and hours to keep us awake and try and coax us out of the hole.

    "All of the dirt is still coming down in my sleeves. It's not the most pleasant of experiences, it's pretty nasty to be fair."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-55877829

    Absolute bellends.
  • Options
    Posh lad for Dirty Leeds does it again.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,359

    That's the entire run of Blake's 7 watched now.

    That ending. :|

    No spoilers... just watched the first 6 eps of season one!
    I would keeping eye out on Avon.. he is a treacherous bastard...
  • Options

    Posh lad for Dirty Leeds does it again.

    You call that posh?

    You probably think David Beckham is royalty?
  • Options
    dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    At the moment we are trying to watch TV whilst being subjected to (admittedly fairly low volume) Spice Girls music from downstairs.

    The background music is not, however, nearly so painful as the realisation that we remember when the Spice Girls were a new thing, whereas she was at most at playgroup and may even have been a foetus at the time.

    We feel old.

    Met a girl called Trinity the other day "after someone in an old film".
    Just got asked by youngest if I'd ever heard of a band called "The Smiths"?
    If you want to feel really old, type the name of a song you like followed by "reaction" into the YouTube search, and will probably find several videos of twenty-somethings listening to it for the first time, often with amazement. When the song is a little known hit called "Bohemian Rhapsody" you can also tell which of them have seen Wayne's World when it gets to the appropriate point...
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    Johnson's skills as a campaigner are widely overrated - in that he spent much of the 2019 campaign running - or hiding - away from scrutiny. In 2008 he became the first Tory to win London since Horace Cutler ran the GLC, but he was fortunate to be the candidate at a time when the Labour government was deeply unpopular.By 2012 he faced a widely discredited Ken Livingstone yet was only narrowly re-elected with a 3.5% swing against him compared with 2008. Had Tessa Jowell been Labour's candidate, he probably would have been defeated.
  • Options

    dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    At the moment we are trying to watch TV whilst being subjected to (admittedly fairly low volume) Spice Girls music from downstairs.

    The background music is not, however, nearly so painful as the realisation that we remember when the Spice Girls were a new thing, whereas she was at most at playgroup and may even have been a foetus at the time.

    We feel old.

    Met a girl called Trinity the other day "after someone in an old film".
    Just got asked by youngest if I'd ever heard of a band called "The Smiths"?
    Just pray that they don't ask if that Morrisey guy is any good.
    I thought he was rubbish at the time...
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    ping said:

    Endillion said:

    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Zoos are closed and vaccinating teachers may soon be government policy. Israel vaccinated teachers along with the over-55s, which age group here is due to be jabbed in March which is almost next month. School Easter holidays take out the first three weeks in April which provides a window to vaccinate Mr Chips in time for summer term reopening at the end of April.
    You seem to have forgot at one time Labours big plan was to tell the government to do more - and that turned out to be leave schools open and shut zoos........

    The scientists disagree that it makes sense to vaccinate fit young teachers now - the science suggests extra deaths in vulnerable groups if you do that.
    The vaccine schedule is far more broad-brush than you admit. There could easily be scientific adjustments to account for different occupations (or ethnicities or any other factors known to affect susceptibility). It has happened in Israel. It will probably happen here, with the convenient April window identified above. Be prepared to reverse ferret on this one.
    Worth pointing out that Israel - even though they have a far higher vaccination rate than we do - has not until today seen the same drop in infection rates that the UK has seen recently. They are doing many things right but clearly not everything so we should not automatically look to them for all the answers.
    The issue is trying to disentangle any effect from vaccinations from the effect of changes in people's behaviour and compliance with safety precautions (masks, social distancing etc). The former effect is assumed to be strictly negative on infections, while the latter could be posiive or negative, and, at least in the short term, has the potential to be far more of a driver of movements in the infection rate.

    My understanding is that certain sectors of Israelis - never much ones for taking much notice of what their government says at the best of times - have pretty much stopped bothering to follow the restrictions. I'm not sure exactly why, although it could be that the efforts of public officials to enforce compliance are now rather more focused on getting the vaccine rollout to proceed, and have taken their eyes off the ball a bit.
    Sadly, it turns out that some very religious groups are as sceptical in Israel as their counterparts around the world. Strange things can happen when you really do believe God is on your side (and ignore the possibility it is God who sent the vaccines).
    What I wanna know is why their particularly cruel god sent us this damn virus.
    Same reason as always. To punish the unworthy.
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,141
    edited January 2021
    DougSeal said:

    Floater said:
    You could look at it both ways. The safest way to herd immunity takes longer. But a more transmissable virus also means the more deadly, painful, way to herd immunity doesn't take as long. We appear (fingers crossed) to have had some success with our home grow variant even with a less well observed lockdown. As has South Africa. I still wonder if that is because it ripped through the community before anyone realised what was happening. The Kent variant was found in September.
    If by "some success" you mean "half of *all the people* who have died with the virus were infected in the 6 weeks in which this variant ripped through the population before we re-instituted a lockdown."

    (Edited to add: ah, I think you mean "but the lockdown seems to have just about balanced out the increased R0"; I agree.)
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Activists staging an underground protest in central London say an eviction team is in the process of forcing them out. HS2 Rebellion, who are camped out at Euston Square Gardens, say the team is burrowing a vertical tunnel causing crumbs of earth to fall around them.

    One protester said: "All night we've had rocks falling down onto our head through the gaps.

    "They've kept us awake all night for hours and hours and hours to keep us awake and try and coax us out of the hole.

    "All of the dirt is still coming down in my sleeves. It's not the most pleasant of experiences, it's pretty nasty to be fair."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-55877829

    Absolute bellends.

    I think my dad had the best idea. Starve them out.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    This has of course occurred to Labour, but our judgment is that new policies will at best not get a serious hearing (we had a go with his regional proposals - remember those? No, right?) and at worst be seen as a distraction from the business of the day, getting rid of Covid. Suppose Labour now put forward well-considered proposals for improving schools from 2024. Teachers might be interested; nobody else will care.

    The strategy is to be sober, constructive and occasionally critical of the Covid effort, and await the moment when people say "OK, that's largely out of the way. What now?" The parallel is wartime - Labour said very little about future plans, if they had any, in 1941, but by 1945 the "Now win the peace" slogan was irresistible. Very different times, perhaps not a guide - but it perhaps illustrates the strategy.
    Yes. Absolutely no mileage in laying out vision & policies atm. If by the time the election comes the average floating voter is thinking, "Starmer? Yeah, I can see him as PM," it will be mission accomplished. You don't get a hearing for the offer if you don't clear that bar.
    "If" doing some heavy lifting there....
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,864
    edited January 2021
    Afternoon all :)

    I have to say the negative response to Starmer from those who prefer any Conservative Government to any Labour Government isn't surprising. A lot of diehard Conservatives didn't like Tony Blair - the fact many other Conservative voters did as it turned out didn't alter their perception of "phoney Tony" as he was known.

    Trying to find that pejorative that will stick - "Gordon Brittas", "Captain Hindsight" - well, that's just politics I suppose and not much worse than calling the Prime Minister "BoZo" for example.

    As someone now politically homeless, I'm prepared to listen to Starmer and see what is the Labour offering for 2024 and beyond. Obviously, if it's re-hashed Corbynism it will be rejected and deservedly so but if it is a forward-looking credible programme for Government and for the country for the rest of the decade, it deserves consideration.

    Crises are generally good for Governments - people tend to rally round and the Opposition has no real line of attack as it probably wouldn't have done any different. The polls tell the story - Jacinda Ardern won by a landslide, the Conservatives lead here, the CDU/CSU have a commanding advantage in Germany, the Socialists are miles clear in Portugal while in Denmark the governing Social Democrats lead by 16 points.

    The exceptions seem to be Italy and of course the United States where Trump lost his election.

    The conclusion is therefore in most countries the electorate may or may not believe their Government has handled Covid well but they don't believe the Opposition would have handled it better.

    Starmer therefore has to wait for "normal" politics to return - Johnson can of course say in 2024 "Covid stopped me implementing my "levelling up" plan, Give me a chance to get it done". That won't be unattractive - Starmer has to ignore that and Covid and simply out forward his and Labour's vision. Both parties will have difficult questions on the affordability of their plans and it may be by then interest rates and inflation will be less subdued.

    I would find puzzling out the Jumpers' Bumpers card at Lingfield as difficult as trying to work out what will happen at the 2024 election.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021

    Posh lad for Dirty Leeds does it again.

    You call that posh?

    You probably think David Beckham is royalty?
    I don't think David ever considered for his initiation....

    A talented musician, Bamford told The Times in a 2015 interview that he once gave a Bach piano recital to his Middlesbrough team-mates...

    He also speaks 3 foreign languages fluently....he is refreshing atypical for a (British) footballer.
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    TimT said:

    HYUFD said:
    Personally, I think this is overly pessimistic. Each month, we shall have both more vaccine options and greater production capacity. As soon as countries such as the UK and the US have got their populations vaccinated to the extent possible, they will be turning their production to their neighbors and to the world's hot spots.

    Expect countries with lots of HIV and TB patients (i.e. with lots of chronically immune-suppressed) to queue-jump in terms of international assistance as these will be the communities from which new (potentially nastier, faster, or immune-defeating) strains emerge most frequently.

    My own best bet is that most Europe, ANZ and North America will be done by end 2021, and Latin America and Asia will be vaccinated by mid-2022. Africa is the big worry.
    It is at this point I would be talking to the 'near room temperature' vaccine manufacturers about building production specifically to supply African countries paid for by the UK.

    Actually I would go one better than that.

    I would specifically target the vaccine poor Commonwealth countries paid for and supported by the vaccine rich/money rich Commonwealth countries. Show there is some real benefit for poorer countries being part of the Commonwealth. Call it the Commonwealth Vaccine Programme and richer countries can join as they get their own vaccine issues sorted out and feel able to take part.
    Absolutely agree.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited January 2021
    Comparing Starmer to Piers Morgan is unfair. If anyone had the media time and access that Piers has they could sell the silky skills of Gavin Williamson. A better comparison is Marcus Rashford. One person with nothing other than his back story his cause and his character is running rings round everyone.

    A lesson there for Starmer. Make your own weather. Find an issue that resonates and persuade people that you really believe in it whether it's instantly popular or not.

    God knows he's got plenty to go at.
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    dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    At the moment we are trying to watch TV whilst being subjected to (admittedly fairly low volume) Spice Girls music from downstairs.

    The background music is not, however, nearly so painful as the realisation that we remember when the Spice Girls were a new thing, whereas she was at most at playgroup and may even have been a foetus at the time.

    We feel old.

    Met a girl called Trinity the other day "after someone in an old film".
    Just got asked by youngest if I'd ever heard of a band called "The Smiths"?
    Just pray that they don't ask if that Morrisey guy is any good.
    I thought he was rubbish at the time...
    Heaven knows he's miserable now.
  • Options
    Politico.com - Trump’s top impeachment lawyer has left his team
    Butch Bowers and another lawyer are no longer set to defend Trump during his impeachment trial, which is just days away.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/30/trumps-impeachment-lawyer-leaves-team-464017

    "Former President Donald Trump has lost his top impeachment lawyer just days before his trial is to begin, a person familiar with his legal strategy and two attorneys close to the team confirmed on Saturday night.

    Butch Bowers, a South Carolina lawyer who was reportedly set to play a major role in the Senate’s trial of the former president, is now no longer with the team. Deborah Barbier, another South Carolina lawyer, won’t be either. The person described it as a “mutual decision” and said new names will be announced shortly.

    In addition, CNN reported on Saturday night that a third member of Trump's prospective legal team, Josh Howard, was also leaving. The network reported that the ex-president had wanted his lawyers to focus on erroneous arguments of mass election fraud rather than the constitutionality of impeaching an ex-president. . . . . ."
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    Johnson's skills as a campaigner are widely overrated - in that he spent much of the 2019 campaign running - or hiding - away from scrutiny. In 2008 he became the first Tory to win London since Horace Cutler ran the GLC, but he was fortunate to be the candidate at a time when the Labour government was deeply unpopular.By 2012 he faced a widely discredited Ken Livingstone yet was only narrowly re-elected with a 3.5% swing against him compared with 2008. Had Tessa Jowell been Labour's candidate, he probably would have been defeated.
    But he won. In London. Twice. As a Tory. And then he won the Brexit referendum against the entire establishment. And then he won the leadership of the Tories. And then he won an election with an 80 seat majority, the largest Tory win since 1987. That's my evidence, what's yours?

    We get excited and contemptuous that he ran away from Andrew Neill. The general public couldn't give a toss.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Activists staging an underground protest in central London say an eviction team is in the process of forcing them out. HS2 Rebellion, who are camped out at Euston Square Gardens, say the team is burrowing a vertical tunnel causing crumbs of earth to fall around them.

    One protester said: "All night we've had rocks falling down onto our head through the gaps.

    "They've kept us awake all night for hours and hours and hours to keep us awake and try and coax us out of the hole.

    "All of the dirt is still coming down in my sleeves. It's not the most pleasant of experiences, it's pretty nasty to be fair."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-55877829

    Absolute bellends.

    I think my dad had the best idea. Starve them out.
    Imagine when they get arrested, they are definitely going to be demanding vegan food, but it must be GMO free or result of modern "interbreeding" techniques of plants, ethically sourced all within 100 miles of their location....and they don't eat bananas because they once read they have feeling too.
  • Options

    dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    At the moment we are trying to watch TV whilst being subjected to (admittedly fairly low volume) Spice Girls music from downstairs.

    The background music is not, however, nearly so painful as the realisation that we remember when the Spice Girls were a new thing, whereas she was at most at playgroup and may even have been a foetus at the time.

    We feel old.

    Met a girl called Trinity the other day "after someone in an old film".
    Just got asked by youngest if I'd ever heard of a band called "The Smiths"?
    Just pray that they don't ask if that Morrisey guy is any good.
    I thought he was rubbish at the time...
    Heaven knows, he’s miserable now.
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    SKS not being a complete idiot like his predecessor means that I will have no qualms in doing what I wanted to do last election and vote against my MP, but that is because he is Steve Baker who I think most of the PCP would like to see the back of.
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    It pains me to say this but Dirty Leeds do play some quality football.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    This has of course occurred to Labour, but our judgment is that new policies will at best not get a serious hearing (we had a go with his regional proposals - remember those? No, right?) and at worst be seen as a distraction from the business of the day, getting rid of Covid. Suppose Labour now put forward well-considered proposals for improving schools from 2024. Teachers might be interested; nobody else will care.

    The strategy is to be sober, constructive and occasionally critical of the Covid effort, and await the moment when people say "OK, that's largely out of the way. What now?" The parallel is wartime - Labour said very little about future plans, if they had any, in 1941, but by 1945 the "Now win the peace" slogan was irresistible. Very different times, perhaps not a guide - but it perhaps illustrates the strategy.
    I think the problem there Nick is that Starmer and his team are not really demonstrating they are capable of big, bold policies which change the public conversation. I agree it's hard at the moment for them given both the vaccine rollout and also that the Government's furlough schemes and business lending have stopped mass unemployment and enabled businesses to survive in a "deep freeze" element, and people give the Government credit for that. But, as others have said, what exactly is Starmer offering? It is too early for detail but it would be nice to have an idea of his broad brush view on the world. The only thing that sticks in my head at the moment is him taking the bended knee.
    MrEd said:

    DavidL said:

    SKS is obviously a massive improvement on Corbyn. He is not stupid, racist, bigoted or anti-western, It is not hard to imagine him as a PM although it is pretty difficult to imagine several of his current shadow cabinet holding down the main job, including his Chancellor.

    For me he has 3 problems. The first is Boris who is an excellent campaigner who is brilliant at building big enough tents to give him a majority. Secondly, Boris is also funny and Starmer isn't. This is a major problem with the UK populace who don't take politicians remotely seriously themselves and expect a bit of entertainment when their lives are interrupted.

    But surely the biggest problem is that we have no idea what kind of a country he wants, other than one run by him. Does he want more taxes? What does he think of our education system? How are we going to develop the industries and employers of the future? Is a balanced budget important or irrelevant? What are his plans for social care?

    The likelihood is that by 2024 the UK economy will be about the same size as it was a year ago, maybe a little smaller. Money is going to be tight. The debts left by Covid are going to be horrendous. Several sectors will be very badly hit. What are our priorities in this difficult but completely foreseeable position? He really should get around to telling us.

    This has of course occurred to Labour, but our judgment is that new policies will at best not get a serious hearing (we had a go with his regional proposals - remember those? No, right?) and at worst be seen as a distraction from the business of the day, getting rid of Covid. Suppose Labour now put forward well-considered proposals for improving schools from 2024. Teachers might be interested; nobody else will care.

    The strategy is to be sober, constructive and occasionally critical of the Covid effort, and await the moment when people say "OK, that's largely out of the way. What now?" The parallel is wartime - Labour said very little about future plans, if they had any, in 1941, but by 1945 the "Now win the peace" slogan was irresistible. Very different times, perhaps not a guide - but it perhaps illustrates the strategy.
    I think the problem there Nick is that Starmer and his team are not really demonstrating they are capable of big, bold policies which change the public conversation. I agree it's hard at the moment for them given both the vaccine rollout and also that the Government's furlough schemes and business lending have stopped mass unemployment and enabled businesses to survive in a "deep freeze" element, and people give the Government credit for that. But, as others have said, what exactly is Starmer offering? It is too early for detail but it would be nice to have an idea of his broad brush view on the world. The only thing that sticks in my head at the moment is him taking the bended knee.
    What was Thatcher offering in 1975 and 1976? Or Heath in 1967?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Eagles, I was just about to express my surprise at the scoreline.

    Mildly irksome as I have a decent each way bet on Leicester and this won't help them finish in the top 2.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    justin124 said:

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Floater said:

    Short answer - no, a charisma free zone who is hardly the sort to reconnect with the working class.

    Oh - and the shutting zoos and vaccinate fit 20 something's over the vulnerable are examples of their muddle headedness (or in the case of second example capture by their paymasters).

    Was Attlee really so charismatic - particularly when compared to Churchill?
    No he wasn't. But that was then when politics was not about soundbites but lengthy speeches, when interviewers asked politely if there was anything else that the interviewee wanted to add, when politics was not a part of the entertainment industry. Its a completely different world.
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