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Special relationship: the British right’s appeasement of Donald Trump – politicalbetting.com

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  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798

    HYUFD said:

    Lord Tebbit may have words with the Chancellor
    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1351437411860045824?s=20

    ‘Dan Hannan, your pasty faced Anglosphere took a helluva beating.’
    To be fair there are more English speakers in India than in the UK and Australia combined.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    I'm quite confused by the title piece. I certainly didn't get the impression the government cosied up to Trump any more than with other leaders. The relationship was considerably more distant than Bush/Blair. It must be a figment of the author's imagination because I don't remember too many meetings between Boris and Trump, and it all seemed to be in the name of diplomacy and contuining the special relationship rather than some bromance or shared philosophy.

    I expect Biden to visit the UK first as many reports have suggested and his relationship with Boris will if anything be stronger than the one the PM had with Trump.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Only one fleg on Hancock's mask on Sky News. He must fucking despise this country.

    Any poppy lapel pin?
    Rainbow NHS badge only. Loves the LGBTQ+ community and socialised medicine but hates fallen heroes.
    Don't ask why (I've no idea) but I watched the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan again last night.

    Still arguably the best opening to a film of any kind and def of a war film.
    I think Cars has the best opening of any film I've ever seen.
    Looper is pretty fine.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    SNP gain Banff potentially on the cards at the Next GE perhaps -

    https://twitter.com/scotfoodjames/status/1351491482063171588

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    dixiedean said:
    Oh, he'll still be a petulant child next week.

    Just one denuded of power.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    Sandpit said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    Oh wow, really?

    That’s what being away for a while does to you, I’d assumed they were all like the M42, which worked pretty well once people were used to it. The difficulties arose at the junctions, where the hard shoulder was often a must exit lane, so there was a bit of shuffling as people moved right to stay on the motorway.

    The problems come with people who don’t do 50k miles a year as I used to, and are not comfortable with the changes compared to a standard motorway. Foreign lorries were always a problem, as they never knew which lane to be in. I imagine there’s a lot more of them around now, than there were 15 years ago when I was pounding the motorways.

    If the smart motorways are to work safely, they need to be properly lit up, with CCTV everywhere, the control room quick to respond to incidents, and plenty of recovery trucks around to scrape up breakdowns.
    Take a look at this stretch of the M1 as highlighted by @TheScreamingEagles . This is a mile north of the Meadowhall junction, a suburban motorway carrying long distance as well as local traffic. No hard shoulder. No lights. No gantry signs. Whats more its inbetween two exits all of 2.5 miles apart.

    To the south is J34. Major weaving southbound to the Meadowhall exit which queues back onto the carriageway when something happens on one of the roundabouts. Northbound joining traffic at runs up a steep long 2 lane slip which merges into 1 lane which becomes lane 1. On a blind brow as steep uphill becomes steep downhill.

    In short its a death trap. No shoulder. No lights. Minimal cameras and signs. No emergency refuges. And they call it "Smart"

    https://tinyurl.com/y4g6sy76
    I try to avoid the M1; go M11, A14 and A1 when heading north. M1 just makes me uncomfortable.
    The A1 is surely even worse? You can have tractors and all sorts of stuff on there, the sight lines aren't great, and some of the slip roads are ridiculously short.

    At least they've removed the cross junctions, I suppose.

    From the M62 north is it much improved though. The North Yorkshire section used to be exciting in the dark.
    I don't use the slip roads. You need your wits about you on the A1 but at least you know what to expect. You know there is no hard shoulder and to expect tractors etc occasionally and you and other drivers drive accordingly. Motorways without hard shoulders are neither fish nor fowl. It's not just that though, there's something about the M1 that just leaves me feeling uncomfortable. I like the sense of history and romance on the Great North Road too. And the A1 has my favourite road sign, to the Honeypot Lane Industrial Estate.
    Local dogging site for gay truckers?
    There is a massive "adult" shop a bit further up the A1. I think it adds to the A1's retro charm. Not that I have ever browsed its shelves.
    There's one of those on the A12, between Chelmsford and Colchester. Nasty exit slip road, combined with the garage next door. Traffic speeds up as it comes towards it, especially trucks heading for Harwich or Felixstowe.
    Don't pass it much nowadays, what with not going out, but rarely saw many vehicles in it's car park.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Pulpstar said:

    SNP gain Banff potentially on the cards at the Next GE perhaps -

    https://twitter.com/scotfoodjames/status/1351491482063171588

    The gullible on twitter will lap it up but this photo could be from almost every month since the pandemic began. No restaurants, no sales Im afraid.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    Sandpit said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    Oh wow, really?

    That’s what being away for a while does to you, I’d assumed they were all like the M42, which worked pretty well once people were used to it. The difficulties arose at the junctions, where the hard shoulder was often a must exit lane, so there was a bit of shuffling as people moved right to stay on the motorway.

    The problems come with people who don’t do 50k miles a year as I used to, and are not comfortable with the changes compared to a standard motorway. Foreign lorries were always a problem, as they never knew which lane to be in. I imagine there’s a lot more of them around now, than there were 15 years ago when I was pounding the motorways.

    If the smart motorways are to work safely, they need to be properly lit up, with CCTV everywhere, the control room quick to respond to incidents, and plenty of recovery trucks around to scrape up breakdowns.
    Take a look at this stretch of the M1 as highlighted by @TheScreamingEagles . This is a mile north of the Meadowhall junction, a suburban motorway carrying long distance as well as local traffic. No hard shoulder. No lights. No gantry signs. Whats more its inbetween two exits all of 2.5 miles apart.

    To the south is J34. Major weaving southbound to the Meadowhall exit which queues back onto the carriageway when something happens on one of the roundabouts. Northbound joining traffic at runs up a steep long 2 lane slip which merges into 1 lane which becomes lane 1. On a blind brow as steep uphill becomes steep downhill.

    In short its a death trap. No shoulder. No lights. Minimal cameras and signs. No emergency refuges. And they call it "Smart"

    https://tinyurl.com/y4g6sy76
    I try to avoid the M1; go M11, A14 and A1 when heading north. M1 just makes me uncomfortable.
    The A1 is surely even worse? You can have tractors and all sorts of stuff on there, the sight lines aren't great, and some of the slip roads are ridiculously short.

    At least they've removed the cross junctions, I suppose.

    From the M62 north is it much improved though. The North Yorkshire section used to be exciting in the dark.
    I don't use the slip roads. You need your wits about you on the A1 but at least you know what to expect. You know there is no hard shoulder and to expect tractors etc occasionally and you and other drivers drive accordingly. Motorways without hard shoulders are neither fish nor fowl. It's not just that though, there's something about the M1 that just leaves me feeling uncomfortable. I like the sense of history and romance on the Great North Road too. And the A1 has my favourite road sign, to the Honeypot Lane Industrial Estate.
    Local dogging site for gay truckers?
    There is a massive "adult" shop a bit further up the A1. I think it adds to the A1's retro charm. Not that I have ever browsed its shelves.
    There was a Radio 4 programme all about the reasons for that (there's more than one shop). They were all a "Little Chef" in times gone by.

    I'm not sure which is/was worse.
    The one on the A12 wasn't. It was a caff or some sort, but not a Little Chef.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    What if you want sensible economic policies plus internationalism plus an increased focus on the environment plus a firm repudiation of the far right?
    You don't get that from any other party in England. It might not be a mainstream combination at the moment, but there are some people who want that.
    Plus almost 10% of their entire Parliamentary Party campaigning against 5G masts. Few other parties can hope to match that.
  • TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Only one fleg on Hancock's mask on Sky News. He must fucking despise this country.

    Any poppy lapel pin?
    Rainbow NHS badge only. Loves the LGBTQ+ community and socialised medicine but hates fallen heroes.
    Don't ask why (I've no idea) but I watched the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan again last night.

    Still arguably the best opening to a film of any kind and def of a war film.
    I think Cars has the best opening of any film I've ever seen.
    For war films -best opening imho is Where Eagles Dare -flying over the Alps to the movie score.

    For Bond Films- the Spy who loved me (for humour with the Union Jack parachute opening up to save bond from a fall ) and Spectre (for macabre /sinister setting with the Day of the Dead parade)

    Casino though has a great opening when De Niro gets blown up

  • eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Legally the last.

    In the late 80s I worked emergency motorway maintenance for South Yorkshire. We were sent out alongside the police to make roads safe whilst they dealt with accidents. The two commonest causes of accidents by miles were people not understanding road conditions - mostly skid pan effects after light rain on hot roads in the summer - and people undertaking just as cars were pulling in and couldn't see them. The law was very clear in those instances. It was the car undertaking that was at fault.
    Out of interest, supposing a car in the fast lane and a car in the slow lane both try to pull into the middle lane at once and collide, whose fault would that be?

    Never happened to me, but I once had a very near miss while driving through Sandwell.
    In my motorbiking days I would always be looking out for this eventuality when changing lanes. It is not just sufficient to know there is a gap now, you need to know that the "gap will be yours" a few seconds later.
    There’s no doubt riding a motorbike is great training for all sorts of road use, knowing that you’re almost always going to lose the argument regardless of how much you’re in the right concentrates the mind wonderfully. Don’t know if it’s still the same but when I did my training for my test in the 90s the term ‘life savers’ was used frequently for using your mirrors, looking behind and reading the road ahead; for once not an exaggerated catchphrase.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    They give a political home to self-important, self-satisfied smug arseholes?
  • The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    What if you want sensible economic policies plus internationalism plus an increased focus on the environment plus a firm repudiation of the far right?
    You don't get that from any other party in England. It might not be a mainstream combination at the moment, but there are some people who want that.
    That would be the Global Britain Conservatives, with a PM looking to change the G7 to the G10 and making a big deal of COP22, climate change etc

    Unless by "internationalism" you really mean European Union membership. But even the Lib Dems aren't advocating for that anymore.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    They give a political home to self-important, self-satisfied smug arseholes?
    your point is...?

    signed Mr Very Smug
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,123
    edited January 2021
    Even if boundary changes go through by 2024 it would still almost certainly be a Labour minority government propped up by the SNP on that poll
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Legally the last.

    In the late 80s I worked emergency motorway maintenance for South Yorkshire. We were sent out alongside the police to make roads safe whilst they dealt with accidents. The two commonest causes of accidents by miles were people not understanding road conditions - mostly skid pan effects after light rain on hot roads in the summer - and people undertaking just as cars were pulling in and couldn't see them. The law was very clear in those instances. It was the car undertaking that was at fault.
    Out of interest, supposing a car in the fast lane and a car in the slow lane both try to pull into the middle lane at once and collide, whose fault would that be?

    Never happened to me, but I once had a very near miss while driving through Sandwell.
    In my motorbiking days I would always be looking out for this eventuality when changing lanes. It is not just sufficient to know there is a gap now, you need to know that the "gap will be yours" a few seconds later.
    There’s no doubt riding a motorbike is great training for all sorts of road use, knowing that you’re almost always going to lose the argument regardless of how much you’re in the right concentrates the mind wonderfully. Don’t know if it’s still the same but when I did my training for my test in the 90s the term ‘life savers’ was used frequently for using your mirrors, looking behind and reading the road ahead; for once not an exaggerated catchphrase.
    The last time I rode a motor bike in UK I was in my mid-fifties and as I looked at all the steel boxes hurtling towards me at a roundabout I thought, like the raven, 'Nevermore"!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    edited January 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Driving on southern motorways is an object lesson in the Lake Wobegone Effect. 75% of drivers think they're faster than average. Watching them all queue up in the outside lanes is baffling.
    If I drive from Devon to London, the outside lane of the M5/M4 is often a solid slab of cars doing 90-95. Because

    - you get there faster and
    - there is virtually no chance of a mobile speed trap seeing your number plate
    until they reach a bit where someone is in the outside lane doing 65 because someone else is in the middle lane overtaking nothing at all at 60.
    Someone at 65 isn't going to get a chance to leave the middle lane, the outside doing 90-95 is so solid.
    Hmmm, what to believe... internet guy, or what I see every time I drive on the motorway down here. Toughie.
    Internet guy who has driven in excess of a million miles, much of it on motorways.

    You?
    600 miles a week for 30 years it's quite a lot but not insane.
    Oxfordshire to London commute accounted for 600 miles a week. Then there was the birding. I have done 80,000 a year, regularly 50,000.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,883

    TOPPING said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Driving on southern motorways is an object lesson in the Lake Wobegone Effect. 75% of drivers think they're faster than average. Watching them all queue up in the outside lanes is baffling.
    If I drive from Devon to London, the outside lane of the M5/M4 is often a solid slab of cars doing 90-95. Because

    - you get there faster and
    - there is virtually no chance of a mobile speed trap seeing your number plate
    until they reach a bit where someone is in the outside lane doing 65 because someone else is in the middle lane overtaking nothing at all at 60.
    Someone at 65 isn't going to get a chance to leave the middle lane, the outside doing 90-95 is so solid.
    Hmmm, what to believe... internet guy, or what I see every time I drive on the motorway down here. Toughie.
    Internet guy who has driven in excess of a million miles, much of it on motorways.

    You?
    600 miles a week for 30 years it's quite a lot but not insane.
    Oxfordshire to London commute accounted for 600 miles a week. Then there was the birding. I would often do 80,000 a year.
    Is your middle name Casenove?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,881

    The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    What if you want sensible economic policies plus internationalism plus an increased focus on the environment plus a firm repudiation of the far right?
    You don't get that from any other party in England. It might not be a mainstream combination at the moment, but there are some people who want that.
    That would be the Global Britain Conservatives, with a PM looking to change the G7 to the G10 and making a big deal of COP22, climate change etc

    Unless by "internationalism" you really mean European Union membership. But even the Lib Dems aren't advocating for that anymore.
    The Tories are the ones who wanted to tear up treaties and ignore law whenever it was convenient.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Only one fleg on Hancock's mask on Sky News. He must fucking despise this country.

    Any poppy lapel pin?
    Rainbow NHS badge only. Loves the LGBTQ+ community and socialised medicine but hates fallen heroes.
    Don't ask why (I've no idea) but I watched the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan again last night.

    Still arguably the best opening to a film of any kind and def of a war film.
    I think Cars has the best opening of any film I've ever seen.
    For war films -best opening imho is Where Eagles Dare -flying over the Alps to the movie score.

    For Bond Films- the Spy who loved me (for humour with the Union Jack parachute opening up to save bond from a fall ) and Spectre (for macabre /sinister setting with the Day of the Dead parade)

    Casino though has a great opening when De Niro gets blown up

    Ironically, the Casino Royale title sequence is rather unstated, but dark. It's probably closest in style to the first parts of Licence to Kill, although the latter had some excitement with the plane fishing.

    The former is just a very ugly and brutal assassination.
  • eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Legally the last.

    In the late 80s I worked emergency motorway maintenance for South Yorkshire. We were sent out alongside the police to make roads safe whilst they dealt with accidents. The two commonest causes of accidents by miles were people not understanding road conditions - mostly skid pan effects after light rain on hot roads in the summer - and people undertaking just as cars were pulling in and couldn't see them. The law was very clear in those instances. It was the car undertaking that was at fault.
    Out of interest, supposing a car in the fast lane and a car in the slow lane both try to pull into the middle lane at once and collide, whose fault would that be?

    Never happened to me, but I once had a very near miss while driving through Sandwell.
    In my motorbiking days I would always be looking out for this eventuality when changing lanes. It is not just sufficient to know there is a gap now, you need to know that the "gap will be yours" a few seconds later.
    There’s no doubt riding a motorbike is great training for all sorts of road use, knowing that you’re almost always going to lose the argument regardless of how much you’re in the right concentrates the mind wonderfully. Don’t know if it’s still the same but when I did my training for my test in the 90s the term ‘life savers’ was used frequently for using your mirrors, looking behind and reading the road ahead; for once not an exaggerated catchphrase.
    When on my most recent speed awareness course I was told that motorcyclists comprise something like 1% of all road traffic and 25% of all road deaths.

    I am astonished anyone does it.
  • HYUFD said:

    Lord Tebbit may have words with the Chancellor
    https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1351437411860045824?s=20

    ‘Dan Hannan, your pasty faced Anglosphere took a helluva beating.’
    To be fair there are more English speakers in India than in the UK and Australia combined.
    The Not Very Good Lord seems to forget that when he bleats plaintively about an ANZAC + USA + UK alliance that could rule the world. He’s another Tory Brexiteer who’s trying to forget he was up Trump’s arse until the Donald got a big, fat L stamped on his forehead.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    TOPPING said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Driving on southern motorways is an object lesson in the Lake Wobegone Effect. 75% of drivers think they're faster than average. Watching them all queue up in the outside lanes is baffling.
    If I drive from Devon to London, the outside lane of the M5/M4 is often a solid slab of cars doing 90-95. Because

    - you get there faster and
    - there is virtually no chance of a mobile speed trap seeing your number plate
    until they reach a bit where someone is in the outside lane doing 65 because someone else is in the middle lane overtaking nothing at all at 60.
    Someone at 65 isn't going to get a chance to leave the middle lane, the outside doing 90-95 is so solid.
    Hmmm, what to believe... internet guy, or what I see every time I drive on the motorway down here. Toughie.
    Internet guy who has driven in excess of a million miles, much of it on motorways.

    You?
    600 miles a week for 30 years it's quite a lot but not insane.
    Oxfordshire to London commute accounted for 600 miles a week. Then there was the birding. I would often do 80,000 a year.
    Is your middle name Casenove?
    Company petrol card....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    HYUFD said:

    Even if boundary changes go through by 2024 it would still almost certainly be a Labour minority government propped up by the SNP on that poll
    Once Tories get north of 300 seats, it becomes very difficult for Labour to have a legislative programme for England.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited January 2021
    Pulpstar said:

    SNP gain Banff potentially on the cards at the Next GE perhaps -

    https://twitter.com/scotfoodjames/status/1351491482063171588

    Those photographs just hasn’t understood what a great deal it is fishermen.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462

    TOPPING said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Driving on southern motorways is an object lesson in the Lake Wobegone Effect. 75% of drivers think they're faster than average. Watching them all queue up in the outside lanes is baffling.
    If I drive from Devon to London, the outside lane of the M5/M4 is often a solid slab of cars doing 90-95. Because

    - you get there faster and
    - there is virtually no chance of a mobile speed trap seeing your number plate
    until they reach a bit where someone is in the outside lane doing 65 because someone else is in the middle lane overtaking nothing at all at 60.
    Someone at 65 isn't going to get a chance to leave the middle lane, the outside doing 90-95 is so solid.
    Hmmm, what to believe... internet guy, or what I see every time I drive on the motorway down here. Toughie.
    Internet guy who has driven in excess of a million miles, much of it on motorways.

    You?
    600 miles a week for 30 years it's quite a lot but not insane.
    Oxfordshire to London commute accounted for 600 miles a week. Then there was the birding. I would often do 80,000 a year.
    Some years ago I lived near Colchester and worked in Basildon, and my job required me to drive all over S Essex. One day I 'bumped' the company's car and was sent off to the repairers to get the bodywork fixed and collect a replacement. For some reason I asked the chap at the garage if there were any limits on use of the courtesy car and was told 'not more than 100 miles a week'. Since I did a minimum of 80 miles daily commute, plus 'visits'......
    Probably lucky I asked.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,221

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Only one fleg on Hancock's mask on Sky News. He must fucking despise this country.

    Any poppy lapel pin?
    Rainbow NHS badge only. Loves the LGBTQ+ community and socialised medicine but hates fallen heroes.
    Don't ask why (I've no idea) but I watched the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan again last night.

    Still arguably the best opening to a film of any kind and def of a war film.
    I think Cars has the best opening of any film I've ever seen.
    For war films -best opening imho is Where Eagles Dare -flying over the Alps to the movie score.

    For Bond Films- the Spy who loved me (for humour with the Union Jack parachute opening up to save bond from a fall ) and Spectre (for macabre /sinister setting with the Day of the Dead parade)

    Casino though has a great opening when De Niro gets blown up

    Haven't seen it, but that would be a fine directorial choice is he doesn't appear in the rest of the film....

    Of the Bonds, Goldfinger has an ace opening, too.

    Apocalypse Now is great.
    A Touch of Evil; Jaws; Sunset Boulevard; ROTLA...
  • Brom said:

    I'm quite confused by the title piece. I certainly didn't get the impression the government cosied up to Trump any more than with other leaders. The relationship was considerably more distant than Bush/Blair. It must be a figment of the author's imagination because I don't remember too many meetings between Boris and Trump, and it all seemed to be in the name of diplomacy and contuining the special relationship rather than some bromance or shared philosophy.

    I expect Biden to visit the UK first as many reports have suggested and his relationship with Boris will if anything be stronger than the one the PM had with Trump.

    In fairness I think most of the Trump/Tories era was generally as you described but there was a year or so, I think when the Brexit wrangles were at their peak, when the relationship was close. Bannon in particular was welcomed and seen as someone to learn from rather than the lunatic fascist anarchist he is.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600

    kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
    At least we were having a discussion on policy ideas....!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,210

    The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    What if you want sensible economic policies plus internationalism plus an increased focus on the environment plus a firm repudiation of the far right?
    You don't get that from any other party in England. It might not be a mainstream combination at the moment, but there are some people who want that.
    That would be the Global Britain Conservatives, with a PM looking to change the G7 to the G10 and making a big deal of COP22, climate change etc

    Unless by "internationalism" you really mean European Union membership. But even the Lib Dems aren't advocating for that anymore.
    What's your theory as to why Boris Johnson is so popular with the Far Right?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    I'm reading a lot about the troubles in the Scottish fishing sector.

    Do we know if it's similar in Cornwall, South-West Wales, and Eastern England, and channel fisheries, and it's just not getting the media attention, or is it mainly Scotland?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,866

    kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
    The Tory party used to be a broad enough church to have all of us in it. As it stands I don't know what the party stands for at the moment other than bunging contracts to donors and not being Labour.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Legally the last.

    In the late 80s I worked emergency motorway maintenance for South Yorkshire. We were sent out alongside the police to make roads safe whilst they dealt with accidents. The two commonest causes of accidents by miles were people not understanding road conditions - mostly skid pan effects after light rain on hot roads in the summer - and people undertaking just as cars were pulling in and couldn't see them. The law was very clear in those instances. It was the car undertaking that was at fault.
    Out of interest, supposing a car in the fast lane and a car in the slow lane both try to pull into the middle lane at once and collide, whose fault would that be?

    Never happened to me, but I once had a very near miss while driving through Sandwell.
    In my motorbiking days I would always be looking out for this eventuality when changing lanes. It is not just sufficient to know there is a gap now, you need to know that the "gap will be yours" a few seconds later.
    There’s no doubt riding a motorbike is great training for all sorts of road use, knowing that you’re almost always going to lose the argument regardless of how much you’re in the right concentrates the mind wonderfully. Don’t know if it’s still the same but when I did my training for my test in the 90s the term ‘life savers’ was used frequently for using your mirrors, looking behind and reading the road ahead; for once not an exaggerated catchphrase.
    When on my most recent speed awareness course I was told that motorcyclists comprise something like 1% of all road traffic and 25% of all road deaths.

    I am astonished anyone does it.
    I will almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident sooner or later.

    Song of the Sausage Creature, etc.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    This thread has left President Trump's lower colon....
  • kinabalu said:

    The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    What if you want sensible economic policies plus internationalism plus an increased focus on the environment plus a firm repudiation of the far right?
    You don't get that from any other party in England. It might not be a mainstream combination at the moment, but there are some people who want that.
    That would be the Global Britain Conservatives, with a PM looking to change the G7 to the G10 and making a big deal of COP22, climate change etc

    Unless by "internationalism" you really mean European Union membership. But even the Lib Dems aren't advocating for that anymore.
    What's your theory as to why Boris Johnson is so popular with the Far Right?
    You'd have to ask them.

    Not being one, not being in touch with anyone who is, not even knowing well anyone who is (they're not the sort of people I'm friends with) I don't know that he actually is.

    All I see is projectionism from the left saying that he is.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005
    I wrote last week about what I believe will be upcoming headlines about local disparities in vaccinations. I think this is really going to kick-off in the next day or so. There are some stories already:

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-long-way-still-to-go-on-bringing-covid-spread-down-minister-warns-12192100

    My 78yo father received a letter asking him to call and arrange a vaccination at one of the big hubs and is booked in for 1st Feb. Yet my 84yo father in law is being told to wait patiently and not contact anyone by our local health authority. He went to the shops earlier (impossible to stop him or get us to do it for him) and drove past what is meant to be the local vaccination site - it was deserted apparently.

    Badly run local health groups are being shown up massively by this vaccination programme.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    I'm reading a lot about the troubles in the Scottish fishing sector.

    Do we know if it's similar in Cornwall, South-West Wales, and Eastern England, and channel fisheries, and it's just not getting the media attention, or is it mainly Scotland?

    The rest don’t appear to have well-funded lobby groups trade associations, taking money from the EU and ScotGov.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    MaxPB said:

    kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
    The Tory party used to be a broad enough church to have all of us in it. As it stands I don't know what the party stands for at the moment other than bunging contracts to donors and not being Labour.
    Unionism, fiscal conservatism, a dynamic market economy, the national interest, maximising freedom for individuals and their families, conserving what's best about the country, and preference for gradual reform over radical change - where it's needed - should be the answer.

    I agree it's not clear.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    Changing topic slightly, LBC discussing Smart Motorways. There have been a number of horror smashes on these, and frankly it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone other than the DfT and ministers.

    When they trialled the concept on the M42 there was a switchable hard shoulder - a solid white line which was turned into a live lane when busy. A lot of cameras, signs on regular gantries. And its lit. Reasonably safe.

    And yet the concept has been used and abused to become cheap widening so that as an example the M1 goes from dual 3 plus hard shoulders to dual 4 without shoulders. Had they used the original system (as they have on the M62 in West Yorkshire) and had a switchable hard shoulder then they would be safer.

    The danger is when you have 4 running lanes, few refuges, no lights and no overhead signs. They could make a MASSIVE improvement to safety by painting a solid line back in. Psychologically people will not drive in that lane without the signs saying its open, which only happens when its really busy and when there aren't broken down vehicles...

    I travel daily on the M3 (when I'm not working at home right now), and people just don't understand them. The still seem to think that the 'old' hard shoulder isn't a lane, and so pootle in the 2nd or third land under the speed limit. That causes a great deal more undertaking than would be normal, so increases the risk.
    TBH thats not a smart motorway thing, thats a southerners driving thing. Dahn Sarf people are kind enough to have a "northerners only" lane. For whatever reason Lane 1 - or lanes 1 AND 2 when its D4 - is a no go zone on southern motorways.

    Its a good progressive way to travel - a steady 65 or so passing underneath two busy lanes bunching to your right.
    For which you can be prosecuted if the police are feeling so inclined.

    From the Driving test:

    "Rule 268 of the Highway Code states – do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right."

    This is generally interpreted to be only at low speeds such as in congestion.

    And those are the conditions I describe. Congested traffic lanes speeding up and slowing down. Our lane doing a nice steady speed with comfortable braking gaps. Should plod be around I would expect them to be pulling the lunatics driving inches off each other's bumpers in the other lanes.

    What is the alternative? That I also disobey the law requiring me to drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking? That I sit in lanes 3 and 4 with tailgating wazzocks? Or sit in lane 1 or two and brake every time traffic to my right brakes because they're all tailgating each other?

    This isn't a phenomenon I see much on northern motorways. Southerners don't know how to drive on motorways.
    Legally the last.

    In the late 80s I worked emergency motorway maintenance for South Yorkshire. We were sent out alongside the police to make roads safe whilst they dealt with accidents. The two commonest causes of accidents by miles were people not understanding road conditions - mostly skid pan effects after light rain on hot roads in the summer - and people undertaking just as cars were pulling in and couldn't see them. The law was very clear in those instances. It was the car undertaking that was at fault.
    Out of interest, supposing a car in the fast lane and a car in the slow lane both try to pull into the middle lane at once and collide, whose fault would that be?

    Never happened to me, but I once had a very near miss while driving through Sandwell.
    In my motorbiking days I would always be looking out for this eventuality when changing lanes. It is not just sufficient to know there is a gap now, you need to know that the "gap will be yours" a few seconds later.
    There’s no doubt riding a motorbike is great training for all sorts of road use, knowing that you’re almost always going to lose the argument regardless of how much you’re in the right concentrates the mind wonderfully. Don’t know if it’s still the same but when I did my training for my test in the 90s the term ‘life savers’ was used frequently for using your mirrors, looking behind and reading the road ahead; for once not an exaggerated catchphrase.
    When on my most recent speed awareness course I was told that motorcyclists comprise something like 1% of all road traffic and 25% of all road deaths.

    I am astonished anyone does it.
    I will almost certainly be killed in a motorcycle accident sooner or later.

    Song of the Sausage Creature, etc.
    Selfless support for the organ donation sector should be applauded of course.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,696

    MaxPB said:

    kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
    The Tory party used to be a broad enough church to have all of us in it. As it stands I don't know what the party stands for at the moment other than bunging contracts to donors and not being Labour.
    Unionism, fiscal conservatism, a dynamic market economy, the national interest, maximising freedom for individuals and their families, conserving what's best about the country, and preference for gradual reform over radical change - where it's needed - should be the answer.

    I agree it's not clear.
    Brexit goes against every single one of those principles.
  • MaxPB said:

    kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
    The Tory party used to be a broad enough church to have all of us in it. As it stands I don't know what the party stands for at the moment other than bunging contracts to donors and not being Labour.
    Unionism, fiscal conservatism, a dynamic market economy, the national interest, maximising freedom for individuals and their families, conserving what's best about the country, and preference for gradual reform over radical change - where it's needed - should be the answer.

    I agree it's not clear.
    I'd suggest that the party currently represents 1-6 of those and not the 7th (though radical change has often been party policy when needed, you don't get more radical than Thatcher).

    I support the 2nd* of those onwards which is why I support the party despite disagreeing on number one. If two out of three ain't bad for Mealoaf then 6 out of 7 is good enough for me.

    * 2nd effectively in hiatus due to the pandemic but allowing the total collapse of society and the economy due to a pandemic wouldn't be conservative either. The Chancellor and Party clearly want to return to fiscal conservativism as soon as it is viable.
  • TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Only one fleg on Hancock's mask on Sky News. He must fucking despise this country.

    Any poppy lapel pin?
    Rainbow NHS badge only. Loves the LGBTQ+ community and socialised medicine but hates fallen heroes.
    Don't ask why (I've no idea) but I watched the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan again last night.

    Still arguably the best opening to a film of any kind and def of a war film.
    9 Rota must have the best ending of any war film. It's a very accurate portrayal of what an extended contact is really like - shouted gibberish and total carnage.
    will def find and watch.
    Yeah looks good that, cheers Dura. Just got it on DVD off ebay for £1.55, couldn’t find it streaming anywhere.
  • northern_monkeynorthern_monkey Posts: 1,639
    edited January 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Only one fleg on Hancock's mask on Sky News. He must fucking despise this country.

    Any poppy lapel pin?
    Rainbow NHS badge only. Loves the LGBTQ+ community and socialised medicine but hates fallen heroes.
    Don't ask why (I've no idea) but I watched the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan again last night.

    Still arguably the best opening to a film of any kind and def of a war film.
    9 Rota must have the best ending of any war film. It's a very accurate portrayal of what an extended contact is really like - shouted gibberish and total carnage.
    will def find and watch.
    Deleted, double post. Phone went a bit funny...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    MaxPB said:

    kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
    The Tory party used to be a broad enough church to have all of us in it. As it stands I don't know what the party stands for at the moment other than bunging contracts to donors and not being Labour.
    Unionism, fiscal conservatism, a dynamic market economy, the national interest, maximising freedom for individuals and their families, conserving what's best about the country, and preference for gradual reform over radical change - where it's needed - should be the answer.

    I agree it's not clear.
    I'd suggest that the party currently represents 1-6 of those and not the 7th (though radical change has often been party policy when needed, you don't get more radical than Thatcher).

    I support the 2nd* of those onwards which is why I support the party despite disagreeing on number one. If two out of three ain't bad for Mealoaf then 6 out of 7 is good enough for me.

    * 2nd effectively in hiatus due to the pandemic but allowing the total collapse of society and the economy due to a pandemic wouldn't be conservative either. The Chancellor and Party clearly want to return to fiscal conservativism as soon as it is viable.
    Yes, it's a bit of a menu but I think you'd agree it's broadly what the party does stand for overall.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487

    MaxPB said:

    kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
    The Tory party used to be a broad enough church to have all of us in it. As it stands I don't know what the party stands for at the moment other than bunging contracts to donors and not being Labour.
    Unionism, fiscal conservatism, a dynamic market economy, the national interest, maximising freedom for individuals and their families, conserving what's best about the country, and preference for gradual reform over radical change - where it's needed - should be the answer.

    I agree it's not clear.
    Brexit goes against every single one of those principles.
    Gentle hint: you might get more of audience for your point of view if you talked about them from time to time (as a self-declared ultra-europhile English Tory) rather than obsessively and fanatically trying to draw and link everything back to Brexit.

    Otherwise people will simply tune you out.
  • kinabalu said:

    The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    What if you want sensible economic policies plus internationalism plus an increased focus on the environment plus a firm repudiation of the far right?
    You don't get that from any other party in England. It might not be a mainstream combination at the moment, but there are some people who want that.
    That would be the Global Britain Conservatives, with a PM looking to change the G7 to the G10 and making a big deal of COP22, climate change etc

    Unless by "internationalism" you really mean European Union membership. But even the Lib Dems aren't advocating for that anymore.
    What's your theory as to why Boris Johnson is so popular with the Far Right?
    I don't think he is. Certainly there are plenty of the UKIP/Brexit party/Reform variety who wouldn't vote for him and think he has betrayed them. Some of them stuck with him for the purposes of getting out of the EU but they will not support him any further.

    I think Boris is in trouble come the next election. Politicians always talk about the people 'lending them' their vote and I think it really was the case in 2019.

    Those who voted for him for getting Brexit done will now have no reason to continue to vote for him.
    Those who voted for him to prevent a Corbyn Government will no longer see Labour as the threat it was
    Then there are those who are naturally right of centre, small government types who, like me, either could not vote for him last time because - well he's Boris - or who will not vote for him next time because he has shown himself to be as incompetent and self serving as many claimed.

    I don't necessarily see the Labour vote shooting up much - at least not unless Starmer makes a lot more of an impression than he is at the moment - but I can see, in fact I think we already do see, the Tory vote fragmenting.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    edited January 2021
    AlistairM said:

    I wrote last week about what I believe will be upcoming headlines about local disparities in vaccinations. I think this is really going to kick-off in the next day or so. There are some stories already:

    https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-long-way-still-to-go-on-bringing-covid-spread-down-minister-warns-12192100

    My 78yo father received a letter asking him to call and arrange a vaccination at one of the big hubs and is booked in for 1st Feb. Yet my 84yo father in law is being told to wait patiently and not contact anyone by our local health authority. He went to the shops earlier (impossible to stop him or get us to do it for him) and drove past what is meant to be the local vaccination site - it was deserted apparently.

    Badly run local health groups are being shown up massively by this vaccination programme.

    Apparently East Anglia is being particularly slow in vaccinating the over 80s which is surprising since it isn't a particularly heavily populated area and it's less deprived than average. I don't know if those are important factors.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,210

    kinabalu said:

    The Lib Dems serve no purpose.

    If you want Tories vote Tory. If you don't want Tories and want Labour then vote Labour. If you want to protest and don't want to vote for a party associated with either the Tories or Labour then vote Green or REFUK (what an acronym!).

    What is the purpose that the Lib Dems serve?
    What if you want sensible economic policies plus internationalism plus an increased focus on the environment plus a firm repudiation of the far right?
    You don't get that from any other party in England. It might not be a mainstream combination at the moment, but there are some people who want that.
    That would be the Global Britain Conservatives, with a PM looking to change the G7 to the G10 and making a big deal of COP22, climate change etc

    Unless by "internationalism" you really mean European Union membership. But even the Lib Dems aren't advocating for that anymore.
    What's your theory as to why Boris Johnson is so popular with the Far Right?
    I don't think he is. Certainly there are plenty of the UKIP/Brexit party/Reform variety who wouldn't vote for him and think he has betrayed them. Some of them stuck with him for the purposes of getting out of the EU but they will not support him any further.

    I think Boris is in trouble come the next election. Politicians always talk about the people 'lending them' their vote and I think it really was the case in 2019.

    Those who voted for him for getting Brexit done will now have no reason to continue to vote for him.
    Those who voted for him to prevent a Corbyn Government will no longer see Labour as the threat it was
    Then there are those who are naturally right of centre, small government types who, like me, either could not vote for him last time because - well he's Boris - or who will not vote for him next time because he has shown himself to be as incompetent and self serving as many claimed.

    I don't necessarily see the Labour vote shooting up much - at least not unless Starmer makes a lot more of an impression than he is at the moment - but I can see, in fact I think we already do see, the Tory vote fragmenting.
    He is though. Tommy Robinson, for example. He has more support on the Far Right than one would expect or can logically explain. Perhaps the Far Right are just thick and that's an end to it.

    Next GE? I'm still in flux. I can see both extremes of another Con landslide or a Labour win. I am not getting a strong instinct yet. Hope you are broadly right obviously.
  • kamski said:

    Metatron said:

    Idiotic article.The opposite is true.The striking thing about the Tory Right is how few apart from Farage and the journalist Delingpole endorsed Trump to any degree .Inevitable that Cabinet Ministers had to put govt business first.Of course Gove gave a sycophantic interview in january 2017 - what else was he supposed to given the timing?
    When the House of Commons in 2016/ 2017 had a debate on whether President Trump should be able to come to the UK only a handful of Tory MPs spoke in favour of Trump.It has been noticeable how on mainstream TV so many Tory journalists tried to distance themselves from being linked to Trump on a personal level even if being sympathetic to some of his policies

    Yes, Gove is just a victim of circumstance. There was literally no way for him to avoid flying 3,500 miles and crawling up Trump's backside.
    Brexiteers and Trump supporters overlap massively in the Venn diagram.
    In a slightly different world, Germany's centre-right CDU would be the most natural match as a foreign political party for the Conservative party. Unfortunately the Conservative party isn't really a centre-right party. I guess more Brexiters prefer Trump to Merkel than vice versa.

    Conversely, it is sometimes odd how keen UK leftwingers are to praise right-winger Merkel.

    I think some in the Conservative party are upset with Trump only for exposing the true nature of the Republican Party, a party they otherwise admire.
    I think you need to step out of the old left-right divide. It's no longer a reliable way of dividing ideological camps. Looks at the "blue on blue" flame wars on here in recent days. Internationalism-isolationism is an important dimension too.
    Just to be clear, we were having a policy discussion on asset taxation - not a flame war. None of us would agree with anyone on everything 100% of the time, and it's good to hear about different perspectives.

    I consider @Mortimer @MaxPB @BluestBlue @MarqueeMark @TSE and @Philip_Thompson (and others) to all be fellow Conservatives, and we share similar principles and values.

    I was interested in their ideas and points of view, which I sympathised with.
    The wealth tax isn't the only thing you've been flaming each other over recently.
This discussion has been closed.